Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi | For the Second Time

[0:44] The year is 2026. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And I'm Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, and then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and everything changed. So now we're watching this incredible series for the second time, because Babylon 5 is a series that you get to watch for the first time, twice. That's right. And for the second time, for the first time, Jeff and I are searching out what messages are contained within. You know, we're talking about things that are mirrors to society, things that give us hope that things will be better in the future. Or maybe they just tell us how to be better human beings to one another. Those could be things JMS intended. Could be things we're just plucking out of it. Who knows? But we're going to search it out and see what is inside. Now, that being said, this is Jeff and mine's second time. We did a whole other show called Babylon 5 for the first time. If you just scroll up in the feed or back on the YouTube video channel thing, whatever, playlist, that's what it's called, Jeff, playlist. I don't know if you know. That's the technical term. Oh, okay. Look at you. Yeah. It's very smart. Yeah, right, right, right. I'm just trying to get the techno babble out, right?

[1:59] Anyway, you guys just scroll back up in the playlist, and you can check out that. That is a completely spoiler-free viewing. Jeff and I had no idea, no idea what was coming up next. This viewing, however, it's our second time. It is full of spoilers. Anything from any point in the timeline, in-universe, out-of-universe, any part of the franchise, really, is complete fair game for Jeff and I.

[2:26] To talk about and to discuss so if this is your first time going through this incredible series we beg you please stop listening to us when was the last time you listened to a podcast that said stop listening to us we're telling you stop listening to us right now go go listen to the other side and when you get through the show catch back up with us here because as jeff said you can actually watch this show for the first time twice this is your one and only spoiler warning shoe shoe why are you still here go go this week brand we are watching whatever happened to mr garibaldi when we watched this on our first time watch we would predict what each episode was going to be based on the title alone what did you predict this one was going to be about um this was actually one of the long-standing things that we had for several episodes back on our first watch oh right a long time a little thing that has come to be known as garibaldi's secret mission now i may have spearheaded this thing but jeff you and i were together on this this was not just a brent solo thing okay we thought that that at the end of season three gara sheridan had given garibaldi some sort of marching orders that was not put nukes on the white star of course not it It could not have been that.

[3:44] Well, I mean, like that could have been a part of it, but then we saw like Garibaldi sneak off in a, in a star fury off by himself and we see him find a shadow ship and it looks to us like he like attached himself to the outer hole of the shadow ship.

[4:01] Now what you and I now know is that's not at all what happened. He went out in his star fury and then he got captured by a shadow ship. And what we saw was him actually inside the shadow ship.

[4:11] Which is very weird on the graphic, but the other way is how it occurred to us, right? And so with this one being titled Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi, my prediction was this is going to be Garibaldi's story because the last we saw of him was he was attached to that shadow ship. And I had this whole thing where what Garibaldi's secret mission was was to bring a Starfury out to Zaha Doom to be able to rescue Sheridan because Sheridan knew he was going to be trapped out there. And we see Sheridan trapped out there hanging out with Lorian, right? Only we're still not really sure if he's actually on Zaha Doom or not. Right. We think he is. But regardless of that, and him attaching himself to the shadow ship is how he was going to get to Zaha Doom to be able to rescue Sheridan and bring him back. Because I don't know if he realized the white star was going to go kablooey or maybe he just dropped some nukes on there. I'm not sure what his deal was. But that was the idea. And this was going to be like his journey to Zaha Doom. Like at the end of the episode, we would catch up with him arriving at Zaha Doom to rescue Sheridan probably in the next episode or two.

[5:20] That was my prediction of what the – I mean it was fully formed, Jeff. Completely. I mean like I've got the script in my head for that amazing episode, which by the way, I maintain that would have still been a cool way to do the story. Yeah, it would have been. It's not what happened at all. But I still think it would have been a cool way to do the story. I still really like what they got. And you know what? Just goes to prove that just because I don't get what I predict is going to happen doesn't mean I'm not going to hate the show or like the show. Jeff, how about you? What did you think this episode was going to be about? Well, you thought this was going to be all about Mr. Garibaldi. I thought it was not going to reasons. I thought it was going to have nothing to do with Garibaldi. This was going to be Jakar going around asking everybody whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi. But people are going to be shutting him down. Like the Citizen Jakar thing, right? Just like, yeah, bro. Okay. Whatever.

[6:10] Really what this is going to come up for is that Jakar, we saw it in the last episode and we're going to build on it, Jakar really acknowledging that Garibaldi was the person who saw him. And it's so important that we take care of those people. So this is really going to be a very Jakar-centric episode. And remind me, isn't that really a lot of what this is? Garibaldi's not really in this episode at all. The very tail end. And it's very much about Jakar going to look for. Trying to figure out where Garibaldi is. So, Jeff, to that, I simply say... Well, Jeff, you know, that was what our predictions were. We got in, we watched, we found out whether our predictions were right or wrong, and then we had a discussion about it. Why don't we take a listen to some of the things that we said about this the first time around? Yeah, let's do it. Previously on Babylon 5 for the first time.

[7:05] Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi? We got Londo and Jakar in a room talking. And once again they stole the episode i've never had a friend before who wasn't narn he says and it was just like that's pretty powerful also says a lot about how he sees his relationship with everyone else yeah when have you ever seen marcus just leave that was so out of character for him because normally he's like okay yeah i'll go and then what does he do he like goes and hides up in the rafters so Londo going through in agonizing detail of what they're going to do to him and Jakar asks him a real interesting question does this please you once long ago no not even then and I thought that was such an interesting confession.

[7:55] That Londo needed to hear himself say Londo's like you're gonna have to endure a lot and I'm gonna have to just sit there and watch yeah it's gonna be it's gonna be hard it's gonna be hard for us to watch it yeah they're gonna develop a strong bond through their suffering together i think we're gonna see a version of jakar going through the stations of the cross i would love for you to track that story and see if you're right you want to talk about uh delen i want to talk about the one real quick she possibly probably has never really experienced these feelings before she's trying to deal with him for the first time and just because she's wise now she's got to figure out how does that work.

[8:38] Like a human emotional concept. Yeah, yeah. How does she deal with that? I had a theory a long time ago. I'm back on that Vorlawns and Shadows are the same thing, two sides of the same coin, going at it from two different ways. I'm going to address this directly to people out there. I really liked Dr. Franklin in this episode. I thought he was great. I thought he was perfect, basically. He handed her the fax, and then he walked away. He handed her the data crystal, and he walked away. He's just like, I'm just going to show you what you already know and let you put these pieces together. I am really impressed with this step, this step for Dr. Franklin. It's pretty clear Lorian caught Sheridan. So Sheridan was the first one to make it this far. Did Lorian just let all the other people fall and go splat? That was a really that was i went a lot of places and now the conclusion.

[9:42] What a what a like a huge did he just let him go splat he just watches he's like oh here they go oh nope nope here's another one well i guess let me get my first one squeegee.

[9:55] Clean that up i completely forgot about you doing the whole stations of the cross thing with chakar i did too i remember that i i ended up with a sound drop that i would use but i didn't remember what it was for and we hit a couple of the stations not all you did yeah yeah okay so so your your theory like was there enough there that you think this was a either a source of inspiration or a comparison or something that jms was doing intentionally comparing this journey of jakar with the stations of the cross and in the jesus journey i don't know that it was so much to mirror the stations of the cross specifically because the stations are really just a kind of in like a meditative reflection on the Jesus crucifixion story. Like you could not know the stations and you know, like he fell three times and they brought him water and they had some, the women helped him. And like, those are part of the story. So I think he might've been overall trying to mirror some of that, but it wasn't the stations. And when we get into the episode itself, I actually have a thing that JMS said specifically, not about this, but about us trying to figure out what his inspiration for a thing was. Okay. I said something in there that shocked me, but clearly I had been saying this for several episodes and I don't know at what point I started saying this. I have been saying that the Vorlons and shadows are just two sides of the same coin. Yeah. Now we know that's true at this point.

[11:24] Like you and I know that that's exactly true. I I don't know when I started saying that, because I was like, I'm going back to what I originally said, that they're just two sides of the same point. Maybe it was just in this episode. I don't know. But that was kind of neat to hear, to be honest with you. You know? Yeah. Like, hey.

[11:38] Got that one nailed it what do we say we try and nail this one oh i was going to make a really really inappropriate crucifixion joke right there i'm going to stop myself wow excuse me while i get my umbrella over here, What do you say, Brent? Then we dive into this one and watch the episode. Let's do it. So if you're joining us for the first time, welcome. Super glad you're here. What's about to happen is Brent and I are going to watch this episode right here, right now with you. We're going to discuss it as we're watching the episode itself. And when you watch it on YouTube, it'll be all edited and cut up in a reaction style video. If you want to see the full and the unedited version of that, we have that available over on our Patreon, patreon.com slash bad nerds.

[12:22] And if you're hanging out with us on an audio podcasting app of some type, you're going to hear that reaction. We'll have conversations in the middle of that. We don't want you to miss that. And then we're going to meet you on the other side where we'll share thoughts and cover messages. We'll even rank this episode in our 100% completely accurate definitive ranking.

[12:41] So, Jeff, let's do a thing. Let's go. Accessing file. Personal log, January 8th, 2261. Dr. Stephen Franklin reporting. It's been nine days since Captain Sheridan was presumed killed at Zahadun. Nine days. Nine days since Mr. Garibaldi disappeared on patrol outside the station. Fun little fact. Uh-oh, here we go. Right at the top. That was a re-record from the original broadcast. What do you mean? In the original broadcast, he says it's been 14 days since Sheridan's death and nine days since Garibaldi's disappearance. Oh. He said, uh, this is just a case where old JMS screwed up. All right. And they went back and fixed it. Oh, so in the broadcast, they had the screw up and they actually went back and re-recorded it and inserted it over top. Yeah. We'll fix it in post. Okay. It's quiet these days. The League of Non-Aligned Worlds has broken up and everyone's going back to their home worlds to prepare for the next stage of war. All we can do now is wait for the other shoe to drop or try and find something useful to do before the end. Right now, short of hand-holding or sympathetic ear, I can't think of one damn thing. What a huge change for him. Old Franklin would have been, I know how to fix this. They need me. Old Franklin would have been- I'm coming to you, I'm committing a breach of protocol. But you should know. Someone should know.

[13:57] There's a problem with the land. Oh, that's right. She's not eating. What do you want? Who are you? What do you want? Who are you? Who are you? Okay. Which one's real, John, and which one's in his mind, John? Yes. Like this right here in the cave all battered and bruised. I'm going to pause it. I know you're kind of giving me the yes answer. I think this is the one that's in his mind. Oh. And the other one in that big empty void and that white thing that's literally holding his body. I think that's like the physical thing. That's like the great machine withdrawal. And then this is like the projection of withdrawal. I can see that. Actually, I really like that. That's my thought. If one is a prisoner of love, one must escape to solitude. Oh, wow. Yes. If one is a prisoner to joy, must one escape to sadness?

[14:52] Why do you presume he has to go to sadness? Yeah, because escape isn't necessarily to what we would perceive as the opposite, right? Like you don't have to go from love to apathy. It's not hate. Apathy is the, my opinion, opposite of love. But it's a good question though, because we are held prisoner to those things sometimes. Is it our obligation? One, Sheridan's talking about a soldier, the first obligation of a soldier. Sure. But is it our obligation to do that? Or I would say, can we sit in it? Maybe sometimes sitting in the idea of being a prisoner, maybe not the worst thing, maybe. Or like, let's say you're a prisoner to love, okay? Maybe what you really need to escape is the idea that you're a prisoner. A prisoner at all, yeah. You know? I see you're still upset that I won't tell you my name. Mm-hmm. Like, I almost think that should have been Lorianne's response. More of not, do you have to escape it? Oh, so you consider yourself a prisoner here. I mean, there's the cave. You can't create language without thought, and you can't conceive a thought without language.

[15:55] I challenge that idea. I do too. Sometimes I can't take the thought and put it into language. That's the limiting factor is the language. Does blood still flow through your veins? Does it? Does it? You have no pulse because this is your imagination, dude. Because, my reluctant friend, you are quite, quite dead. Dead. Dead. Yeah, Sheridan is dead. He is dead right now. I was falling into the Sarlacc pit. I fell a long way. So this is the thing I referenced earlier. Someone asked JMS if Sheridan falling like this and what he says here was that meant to mirror Gandalf. Sure. And he says, no, I was not thinking of Lord of the Rings. In fact, I was thinking about Orpheus going into the underworld. World uh the classical notion of descending into hell to find oneself or something else Orpheus had Eurydice I don't know how to say her name Eurydice Eurydice Eurydices Eurydices Sheridan has Delenn he goes on to say that he gets very upset when people try to interpret where his inspiration is coming from and what he's trying to pull something from.

[17:12] He says, read more than just sci-fi and fantasy. It was pretty funny how much he was railing against, like, just watch my show. Like, don't sit there and be like, was that from this? Was that from that? No, it's Babylon 5. That's what it is. You know, what's interesting is the whole thing with Orpheus. And that's so interesting. Oh my gosh. It's, oh, okay. The whole thing with Orpheus is his wife dies on a wedding day. Like, I think it's a snake bite or something like that, right? And she goes to the underworld. She's there with Hades. And so Orpheus goes and he breaks in to Hades. And he's like, he's like a musician. So he's like playing music and he winds up charming a bunch of people. And he, he gets her out and Hades says, okay, I will let you go, but you cannot look back. Oh. And Orpheus is, uh, curiosity gets the better of him. He turns around and he looks back and he winds up losing his wife forever. Um, the idea that Sheridan is in this place where if he looks back, he could lose, you know what I mean? Like in whatever you're doing, you can't look back. You got to just go forward. Like that's, that's the moral of the story. If he looks back, he dies, essentially. Like he stays dead. Exactly, exactly. You just put your eyes on the prize and just keep moving forward and don't look back, right? Like, because looking back does not do you good when you're trying to move forward, right? So, but here with Sheridan, what's he doing? Is he looking back or is he pressing forward? Like, it's interesting.

[18:31] I'm going to couch the rest of these conversations with him and Laurie and kind of in that idea of going back, staying with that student. I want to see how that lines up. If that's where his mindset was, that's pretty cool, man. And I think, too, that's the thing. That's where his mindset was. It's not the story he was necessarily trying to tell. It's just the themes behind it were kind of what he was focused on. Right. Well, it was a good life for sure.

[19:00] This dude is freaking crazy, man. Yeah, right? I'm kind of with Sheridan. This is still very villain-coated. That's actual Lorian and actual Sheridan. Sheridan's got a haircut here, man. Yes, I see you are But closer to tick Or closer to talk I don't know Only time will tell And here between the moments we have all the time the dash where where oh yeah the dash jeff where do you spend an infinite amount of time where you have all the time where where are you when you're in between the tick and the tuck where your imagination oh yes right you're in your dream world you're in you're in you're in your mind right that's where you are but that's when time really has no value because you can form an entire history of something like that in your mind. Like, think of any piece of sci-fi or fantasy. Entire worlds and universes were created. The entire thousands of years of history and timeline is, bam, right there. Yeah. It's all in my mind. There's a partial serial number on this piece. It matches the ID number of a Star Fury that belongs to a friend of mine. His name is Michael Garibaldi. He disappeared almost two weeks ago. This is from his shit. I don't want to talk to you.

[20:28] Yeah garibaldi star fury is not drifting i said i got nothing to say to you the man says he doesn't want to talk to you man you just made a mistake bro, i was gonna say we this is sir jacar it's no concern of yours it's my bar i'm making it my concern now get out i've come a long way i intend to finish my conversation hey by the way jakar is in the wrong here yeah such a negative, make a very satisfying is that the first time we've heard klaxon warnings might be a couple centauri just hanging out a dive bar sure, your system can't handle the stress you're putting on it if you don't stop you're going to hurt yourself for the viewer where this is actually a really good reminder, because I think we've been just, like, Delenn is Minbari. I know this is how your people deal with grief. You fast, purify yourselves, physically, spiritually, but nothing is going to be served by endangering your own life. You know, it does hearken towards Lanier when he, like, shuts his body down and doesn't need to drink for so long and all that. Yeah, you're right.

[21:47] Delenn wanted to protect him. Remember that episode of Voyager where the doctor is, like, freaking out, like, glitching? Yeah. That's what she's going through right now. She's glitching that's well this is i mean this is a beautiful and disturbing depiction of grief i will see him again the place where no shadows fall it's interesting to me that delin, is actually like she's feeling the heaviness of this as guilt yeah because this is going back to the whole thing about where she didn't say she didn't tell him that anna could potentially be alive right which i don't think she should have brought that up at all it to the best of their knowledge. If you didn't do, if you didn't do what Morden did, you were dead. It's one or the other. It's one or the other.

[22:34] That's the best of their knowledge. And it's, it's not going to do John any good to be like, Oh, maybe she's not dead. When you find out that that's, that's a possibility later on. Yeah. It's not going to do him any, you don't, I don't, I don't disagree with her not telling Sheridan. If Sheridan would have directly asked her and she would have lied about it, that would have been an issue. Yeah. That's different. But she doesn't necessarily have to volunteer this information and and and all that so i think again this is misplaced guilt in my opinion go ahead which i think is very consistent for dylan we've seen that the entire character arc and we continue to see it with her also in this case though i get it like the profound amount of loss that she's experienced here it makes sense question everything you ever said right right and you do the thing where you blame yourself what could i have done different and she's And she's going through that. And, and I said in the recap video and I'll say it here cause I think, I think I was right back then and I'll, I'll maintain it. She's never experienced these emotions before. Exactly. Cause as she just said, I'm now a part human. It should have changed my heart. She there, there's things that she's experiencing that no Mimbari since Sinclair slash Valen has ever experienced. Exactly. And she doesn't know how she's not prepared to deal with it. You know, it makes me wonder from an acting standpoint. I don't know much of mirrors, like I don't know the specifics of her story, but.

[23:54] I know she experienced horrific loss back home in the war. And I wonder like if she's, if this is some of that for her as an actor through this super powerful. Also just to double down on a thing I said in the recap, good on Dr. Franklin old Franklin would have been like, I've got an IV. I'm hooking you up to it right now. You have to do what I say. You're going to be worried every time the universe doesn't make sense. You're going to be worried every moment of every day for the rest of your natural life.

[24:20] My point being, why am i talking to you and what are you doing here i heard you were looking for mr garibaldi on the assumption he was in trouble so i went looking for you on the assumption you'd probably get into trouble i was doing fine no hey but if you don't socialize with a bunch of narn that's him don't they kind of that's the one that's what i love about this he's not it's not that they all kind of look the same he gets it he sees him the last of the curry still free this guy smells a promotion there's a reward for his capture dead or alive yeah which pays the most, andrew in the chat said that that guy reminds him of bruce campbell i totally agree totally i was looking through them when i found this i thought you might like to take a look at that i'll be outside when you're through again loving dr franklin in this episode, personal log may 14th 2260 look at that hair the job now is to turn this around and make it into something positive my dad always told me that's the only way you deal with pain what's he talking about right now uh seceding from earth fight it okay okay okay he's being very vague in what he's he used to say if you're falling off a cliff you may as well try to fly you've got nothing to lose I mean, during the war, I fought Mimbari, killed Mimbari. So many of my friends died in Mimbari hands, and here I am.

[25:49] Oh, baby. For a long time, I thought about not saying anything. The moment my heart crossed that line, there wasn't much I could do but see it through. Yeah, I've fallen off one hell of a cliff. When I look in her eyes, I think maybe I really can fly. Buddy. Because to her, he's gone, right? Like, what in that? Oh, that little stroke. So good. I love. They just gave us the answer, right? What pulls Sheridan out of this Lorian Dream State thing? Delenn, his reason to live, right? Right, right. They just spelled it out. You've fallen off the cliff. He literally fell off a cliff. And the thing that's going to save him is Delenn. A little correction. Sheridan didn't fall off that cliff. He leapt right off that bad boy. And according to our newfound friend. Yeah, grossest scene in the entire series. Unacceptable. Have you ever brushed your teeth like that, though? With my finger, yeah. Not with a glove. Dude, you get some extra roughage on that glove, you can get some stuff off, man. You better wash that glove off. That's what I was going to say.

[27:03] I like how the Jakar Marcus stuff is kind of lighthearted, because what Jakar's about to have happen, holy crap, right? Yeah. This is getting us ready for the fall off the cliff. Sure. The Centauri I can take care of myself. If you stay, I will be deeply offended. And there is little more inherently dangerous than an offended Narn. But you can't. This is a personal mission.

[27:32] Dude he got one got two and he's about to be gone, he got zatted he did one shot i'm surprised they did that instead of just straight up killing him well i think the centauri like thank you they want to present him to cartagia from the beginning yeah but and again this is fiction um if somebody is shooting at you you're threatening to kill you turn around and kill them. You don't like, oh, I'm going to preserve you. No, you're threatening my life. You're done. First thing we learned in the military, here's your handgun. Anytime you discharge this weapon, it is with the intent to kill. Full stop. Yeah. You better be trying to kill. We're not taking somebody's kneecaps out here. Right. Yeah. A thousand years ago, when they were first created by Valen, the Rangers have always been our first line of defense against the shadows. Hey hey we talked about that to some extent when were the rangers created we were under the impression that it was with sinclair uh as an ambassador on minbar but she just said it was a thousand years ago with balen yeah we will attack zakadoom plan is to wait seven more days so that any ships that wish to join us can arrive then with darkness before us destruction behind We will strike. The chances of success are small. If we stay here and do nothing, they're even smaller.

[29:01] A dear friend said to me, if you're falling off a mountain, you may as well try to fly. That's not the quote, but get close enough. That's good. The end. I offer you one final chance to fly. So, I know the first time, this is where I started bagging on Delenn quite a bit. And she's just like, all right, so didn't get my way. Let's go attack Zahadum. Is this different than her voting to attack Earth after Dukat died? Because it's your because it's done out of an emotional response and stuff like that like a reaction an emotional reaction maybe this feels much more measured than what happened with ducat like ducat was i'm angry and kill them all get them all this feels much more we're going to go after him here's what we're going to do here like it feels more measured is it really the same it might be. It feels like it might be, yeah. But I still don't think it is. It's fair. But it might be.

[30:04] It's just more measured than it. Which could be a result of maturity. Just a moment. Essentially. Right. And it doesn't mean it's wrong, even if it is emotionally based. Exactly. Yeah, just because I reacted to this thing doesn't mean it's the wrong response. It might be, but it doesn't mean it is. Yes, but the emperor was most insistent he says you must come this moment why he does not reveal his mind to me because he's a psycho come with me hurry or his intentions no what yeah verini's like i'm gonna be the one that gets killed if you don't show up on time right well look you've kept us waiting i should be very upset with you which is why i've secured you, A gift. A gift? A gift. I wanted you to see it as soon as it arrived. It is unnecessary for you to buy me sense. No one turns down one of my gifts. Besides, I know you'll like this one. It's something you've wanted for a long, long time. Would you like to see your gift now? Yes, Majesty. Good. Is it that dancer I married forever ago that I had to leave? Maybe. Maybe. And that's going to be a resounding no.

[31:20] Right? There he is, the last of the Kauri. I know he's been a great burden to you, but now he's here for our amusement. And well, when he ceases to be amusing. Not funny. Oh, Malari, have you nothing to say? Yes, Majesty. Thank you. Dude, Peter Jurisic's playing this right on the line. Yeah, he is. Yeah. Have you anything to say? Do you by any chance happen to know where Mr. Carabaldi might be? Who? Who? And here it is.

[32:05] Okay, I'm going to run into it a little bit. JMS had some pretty interesting stuff to say on this, and I want to watch it through the lens of what he says. Okay. It was shot fairly conventionally, But as we got into editing, uh, the scene just did not work at all. Okay. So I said, let's do something we don't normally do. Let's try a visual approach. That's not usually a part of sci-fi shows. So I put the sequence together and my feeling is break your format once in a while, or you get stuck in a rut, take chances. The worst it'll happen is you fail. But he took this from like, uh, more of the like detective police, like law enforcement D kind of quick cuts and things like that. He wanted to create that unease that you get in those when you're watching the criminals and spots. Okay. But he just hated the way it worked on a regular edit. So they didn't have to reshoot it. They just reedited the way. Which just to those out there and not production land, good editor is everything. Absolutely. It is. And you're talking specifically about the scene here with Garibaldi, not necessarily what's going on with your car. The Garibaldi stuff. Got it. Okay. All right. Who? Who?

[33:19] Yeah, if they just had like a static camera and were just watching him. Who's orders? Who's orders? Who's orders? Your vital signs indicate you're being somewhat less than honest. That room has to be so tiny that he's in. Well, yeah, I mean, he's almost hitting the ceiling with his head.

[33:44] Okay, and he's currently on the Psycor ship, is what we know, right? And so... If we could, I want to track this. Okay. So he flies out in his Star Fury alone to fly all the way to Zaha Doom and find out what's going on with Sheridan. Something like that. And along the way, he comes across some shadow ships and he winds up getting captured by the shadow ship. And the shadow ship is carrying him along and they make a pit stop with their good old buddies at the side core and drop him off.

[34:18] And then poop his ship out there and blow it up and some salvage guy comes by and get some pieces out of it. Is that? They explain at some point kind of what happens. I don't remember. All right. They're saying in the council chambers that he went out to lead a wing and got abducted. He did not go out by himself. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. And he got captured. Okay. It's the handoff from Shadows to Sycor that is, that's where I think the question is so he was garibaldi was not intending to go anywhere he was just out leading a wing of star furies fighting against the shadows yeah he was heading out to start shooting he was just going pew pew is really what he was doing which is what he does best honestly and the shadows picked up and they left and again they made a pit stop with their good old buddies the psych or to drop him off because they knew he they were looking for him or something yeah i don't know okay all right i just listen i'm just i'm not i'm not questioning it i'm just trying to make sure i'm understanding that's all i'm saying so right there someone says to jms the guy that walked in under garibaldi sure had a body like bester and his answer was interesting was that actually bester walter koenig i don't know i doubt it very much or like just some sort of body double or something yeah You don't bring Walter. You don't pay Walter to put on a mask. This is his moneymaker right here. Right.

[35:46] And the nuclear vessels. Exactly.

[35:51] Some powerful scenes in this space throughout this part of the season. Hello, Jakar. You were foolish to leave Babylon 5, you know. You had sanctuary there. You will be tortured for a very long time. I have seen them prolong suffering. Assuming you are still conscious, still entertaining, they will begin removing your internal organs as they make a mountain of your parts and pieces. JMS, talking about what inspired that for him. He says, if you want something alien and horrific, look no further than humanity itself.

[36:26] Yeah. I got the idea for this from a medieval torture that involved hanging someone to almost the point of death, then removing their organs, cooking them, and making the victims smell their organs cook as they slowly died. Way to go, humans. Does it remind you of that torture place you visited when you were down here? Absolutely. Yeah. Oh, my God. Which, by the way, you loved that place. I did love that place. You're a sick, twisted individual. I like, yeah. It's horrible what we did to people. Yeah. I believe I can save your life, but it would not be easy, and you will suffer greatly before this is over. I cannot help that. I wish I could. I have no desire to see you suffer, but I must watch. That comes from a long... That's a long way for longer. Your time is right. I agree. And then I will act. Disgusted by that idea.

[37:26] You didn't ask the price for my cooperation. You are not exactly in a position to bargain, Shukar. Neither are you. Right? Dang. You want my help for the sake of your people. I will give it for the sake of my own. If I remove the monster from your throne, you will remove the monster from your throne. From my world. Which is you. Yeah.

[37:56] He's made it clear for a long time he will die to help his people. He has nothing to lose here. Backward to US. You have my word. That he doesn't hesitate to commit to that. One says how keen he is on getting rid of Cartagia. Also says, I never really wanted to occupy Narn. I wanted us off of there for a while. He's, I mean, he, as soon as those, um, mass drivers. Yeah. He was like, no, no, no, no. This is not what I wanted. You know? And he has a, I think we often say we want something or even think we want something when really we don't all we're doing this bloviating. We're just letting off steam. You know, we do it all the time. You know, ah, I'm going to kill you. No, I'm not going to kill you. I'm just really mad at you right now. There's all he threatened me. No, not really. But yeah, he kind of did. But no, not really. He's just mad. Like, he's just blowing off steam. It's just this old thing of doing. But what did Lorian say earlier in the episode?

[39:00] Words have power. When you're angry and you're bloviating and you're letting off steam, you need to be careful what you say. And sometimes you back yourselves into making really stupid decisions in that moment that have effects that you really didn't want or intend. Or maybe you did kind of want it, but not really. Right. And that's Londo. I think Londo this whole time has been like, ah, this isn't exactly the way I really wanted it to go, but you know, you know, it's, it's, it's, I don't exactly like how it's being done or how it's being said, but I do kind of like the result that we're going to be on top again. So that's cool. But yeah, you know, yeah. Okay. We'll do that. Also, by the way, doesn't Londo keep his word? Mm-hmm. Yep. Doesn't Londo keep this promise right here? He sure does. Right away. Yeah, buddy. I want to remind a little bit. This is a powerful little scene we kind of brushed over. I talked over it, I think. You have my word. So he opens the door.

[40:00] And just blinding light hits your car and what does he do smiles yeah i feel like i remember talking about that did we talk about that i think i think so and if we didn't we should have but yeah um andrew asks in our our council chamber so what was londo doing when he answered morden season one he was speaking out of anger yeah there was i forget exactly what it was but there was something that happened with jacar or or with him as a centauri there as an ambassador and he was he was speaking out of anger what do i want i want centauri to be the great rule to not have its balls neutered to to that's what i really want you know he was speaking from from that sort of a place a really of anger and in resentment yeah but i don't know that he that doesn't mean that he wanted mass drivers thrown at the thing. Well, I think it's what you were saying earlier. Sometimes we say something out of anger, a reaction of something, and then we kind of get called on it in the moment. Instead of being like, you're right, I was pushing a little too hard. Instead, we double down on it. And we watched him double down quite a few times. Both Jakar and Londo, when Morden asked the question, were like, I want to destroy these people. And Morden pushed it. And Jakar had the wherewithal to be like, well, I mean, we're good. Like, at that point, we're fine. Londo doubled down, and that's what Morden was looking for. Who will carry this through?

[41:27] Right. But where did that come from? That come from his own personal pride. Exactly. At the end of the date, Jakar was able to humble himself.

[41:36] Londo held on to his pride until he was able to humble himself. Yeah, and what's amazing, at that point, with Jakar, we had no idea he could humble himself. Turns out. This is the fire I set when I woke up down here. I was old when the molecules of your world joined. and called themselves land and sea. For him to be old, that would indicate he had a beginning. Mm-hmm. You're one of the first ones. No. Not one of the first ones. The first one. I am the first one. Yeah.

[42:10] You know a way out of here. Does that imply that he is the creator? I don't think so. No. In fact, I think he talks later about... I'm waiting for what? Like, things changed as a result. You're the first... And he's not a race. He's just... Lorian? Unto himself, right? Do they know? Of course. That's why they come back to Zaha Doom every time they're driven off. Because I'm here. They think they're showing respect. Did you know you have a Vorlon inside you? Excuse me? Well, a piece of one. You will die. Jump. Jump. Now. Gosh. Is that its name? I think I met it once long ago. It. It. He told me to jump. Lorian's calling him it. Did he know that I was here? Sheridan's calling him he. Well, JMS said that he figured the Vorlons were at a point where our idea of gender couldn't even apply anymore. Lorian gets that. Sheridan doesn't have any other frame of reference. It's the late 90s, for God's sake. Almost certainly. Kosh is in you. And he's part of the problem. You're the other part. You're both still clinging to life. Both afraid to let go. Afraid. Jeff, that's got a theme here. It's the thing. Fear. And surrender yourself.

[43:28] He must not look back. You stop clinging to life. Don't look back. Surrender yourself going forward. Orpheus. Yep. Right back to it. I can't. The others need me. You can't turn away from death simply because you're afraid of what might happen without you. That's not enough. I don't know how to do that. Then I cannot help you. It's easy to find something worth dying for. Do you have anything worth living for? Yeah, what a powerful question. I can't see you anymore, as it should be. What do you see? What if I fall? How will I know if you'll catch me? I caught you before. What if I die? You die. You know what occurs to me right here? He's doing the same thing that the four lawns and shadows do in a couple episodes. Will you go with us? Don't let me go. Will you be okay? What if I do that? What if? He's in the same spot right now. But he takes the next step. They don't. Yeah. Well, no, they do. Well, then, yeah. It's just they haven't yet. Thousands of years later. No, but like, right. But like, they'll go with them. Right? I cannot create life, but I can breathe on the remaining. Yeah, I cannot create life. It may not work, but I can hope. Hope. Ooh, I like that. Fade to black for us. Hope is all we have.

[44:53] Do you have anything worth living for?

[44:58] Sleep now I will watch and catch you if you should fall Glenn, it was seated the whole way Mm-hmm, Still in his mind, though, right now. And this is where Lorian gives him some of his life force, right? Gives him his 20 years. Yeah. Which apparently isn't enough. And that was the terrible cost. It came at a terrible cost. Yes. We got a terrible cost. What? Your life. Now, Lorian gave us some of his, so we got an extra 20 out of it. But Sheridan died. Sheridan's done. That was the cost with Sheridan's life, Sheridan's death. That's an interesting way of looking at it. I think we've been saying it's the short 20 years that was the cost. No. The cost was that he literally died. Well, and when you go back to the Stations of the Cross thing, right, the thing is he dead. He dead. Yeah. He died, right? He's not caught between a tick and a tock. Nope, gone. I mean, unless – well, let me take that back. If the tick is death and the talk is moving on, then, yeah, he's caught in between, right?

[46:07] Or do you go back? What's he going to do? He's at a crossroads. What's his choice, right? But he died. What next? Yeah. Can you let go and go forward? Well, really, in the story of the Stations of the Cross, when that guy comes back, he is a different – he's different. Peers differently.

[46:26] He's different. Yeah. So is Sheridan. Like there are pieces of old Sheridan there, but this is, this is interstellar Alliance Sheridan. This is big thinking Sheridan like this. He's on a new path from here. Right. I, I seem to remember though, that something happens where Sheridan about dies again. Yes. And Lorian like bends down and like give some stuff and says, and that was the extra 20 years, not whatever he's about to do. I think it's when they blow up. Okay. a kosh 2.0 i think there's a big fight and it's like squids and then sheridan's like take my four lawn and the whole thing happens yeah i don't i we'll we'll see here in the next couple episodes i don't fully remember that moment but i i do seem to remember that that whatever lauren's about to do here i feel like he was basically instead of moving forward he's giving him back to life right so he can go back to living and then he dies like a second time and lauren's like okay I got to breathe on these ashes again, right? That's all I got for you to get one more is all I got left. Yeah. Look, I get, look, I gave you life back. Now you only can get 20 and you're done. What an episode, man. So much in this. Was there anything that we didn't discuss during the episode you want to hit on? No, we, we, I mean, it's just good TV, dude. This is the kind of TV that just wraps you up in it. Totally. Yeah.

[47:43] You know, um, yeah. I found myself like we're either just watching the show or we're having to stop every two and a half seconds. Cause there's so much to talk about within those two and a half seconds. Right. Right. How about you? Did JMS have anything that maybe you didn't get to share with us, uh, during the course of the episode? Nope. No, I got to share, share the big stuff. Take my Vorlon. That's a good song name for our band that we're forming here. Right. The Last of the Kauri. Yeah. Take my Vorlon. Please. It's also a great shirt. Just take my Vorlon.

[48:19] I'm sorry. Anything from JLS? No. Nothing more. I think we covered the stuff during the watch itself. Well, then with that, Jeff, we only have one more job to do with this particular episode, and that is to place it in our 100% completely accurate and definitive ranking. Of Babylon 5 for the second time, season four, Quattro. Jeff, the question is, does this episode go above or below Hour of the Wolf? Is this one? Is this two? What you got for us, buddy? This, I'm not going to, oh, I don't know, I don't know. It's number one. Hour of the Wolf was okay. Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi was, whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi. I think that works for podcasting. Like Carlos Albante.

[49:07] Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi is incredible. Like this is the Babylon 5 that we love where it's 20 pounds of potatoes stuffed into a 10-pound bag. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Jeff, that's going to do it for whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi. Wow. We don't really know. We got put in a room and then somebody's standing over him doing like, who are you? I'm Darth Vader from the Planet Vulcan.

[49:37] He's got a great five o'clock shadow, though. Right, right. Next week, Jeff, we are continuing with what we now know is this little mini binge. We're continuing with the summoning. Jeff, do you remember what you thought about the summoning when we watched it the first time? This is honestly where I find myself stuck in the place that you've talked about since we came into season four, where I'm like, okay, so there's all these episodes. All this stuff happens. And there's what I think happens in this one. What I believe I remember from this episode, and I could be talking about an entirely different episode here, but I think this is where I really started getting angry.

[50:13] Delenn like Delenn's really focused on this like we're going after Zaha Doom thing and really just I remember seeing her as being blinded to reality and just so focused on her reaction is this the episode that Sheridan comes back because I know like there she's doing the thing where like she's talking to him they're up on the scaffold and like Sheridan just like walks on that's I think that's the next I think that's episode four I think yeah I think it is also I don't yeah I don't I don't think it's quite in this episode yet. Yeah. I don't remember for sure. Yeah. Uh, what do you remember about the summoning? Well, you just said, I don't remember. I, the, everything that happened between episodes one and six is one thing in my brain. And you're, you're asking me to tell you which happened in which one. And I don't know. Like, I, I really don't. Here's what I remember. It was fricking awesome. Okay. Yeah. Whatever it was, it was fricking awesome. You know, uh, my guess is if I really, really had to dig in, this is, this is Is Jakar getting tortured? Yeah. This is the one with Jakar getting... Oh, he's the whip one? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. And Sheridan's learning more from Lorian. It's those two things. I don't know how much we really get to see about Garibaldi's deal in this one. You assume we pick it up a little bit more, but...

[51:31] Not really sure. Well, what's exciting about this as we come to a close, Brent, is next week, I think you and I are going to find more out about Babylon 5 than anyone who's watching this at this point, because they're just like, how can you not remember? These are the things that happen. We'll see that next week. And you don't want to miss that, so make sure you're subscribed. Like, comment, be a part of the conversation, be a part of the community, right? We have an incredible community around us. They protected us when we watched it the first time. they are surrounding us now and enjoying this second watch with us. We'd love to have you as a part of the community as well. You can do that in whatever podcast app you're listening on. You can do it on YouTube in the comments. You can do it on our Patreon at patreon.com slash badnerds. Wherever you're at, we'd love to have you be a part of this ride. But the one thing you can do that will really help not only the show out, but really mean a lot to Brent and myself is to share this show. Share it with somebody who loves Babylon 5 or share it with somebody who needs to get on board as we're sailing through season four, heading to just absolutely incredible heights. So with that, my name's Jeff. Hey, Jeff. Hey, Jeff. Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, Jeff. You know what you need to do? What? You need to sing that thing, that jingle thing you were working on. Are you serious? Yeah, do it for everybody. Do it. Yeah, yeah, do it. Do it. Guys, you're in for a treat. Here we go.

[52:51] Give me a break. Give me a break. Break me off a piece of that Vor or lawn I mean we're not some deep space franchise This station is about something.