The Summoning | For the Second Time

[0:44] The year is 2026. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And my name is Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, and then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and that changed everything. So now, we're watching this incredible show for the second time, because Babylon 5 is a show that you get to watch for the first time twice. That's right. But for the second time, like the first time, but all brand new, we are still searching for the messages that we find contained within, you know, the messages that sci-fi is uniquely positioned to do things like holding up a mirror to society without us ever really realizing it. Or maybe they just give us hope that things are going to be okay in the future, or maybe they just tell us how to be better human beings to one another. Now, that being said, this is our second time, not our first time. We have been all the way through. We've seen every episode, which means that anything from any point in the timeline, anywhere in the franchise is fair game for Jeff and I to talk about at any point during the show. So if you have not seen this incredible series for the first time for yourself, stop watching this right now or listening to this. Put this on pause. Go back to our first time watch. That's completely spoiler free. That is the better way to do it. Trust us. This is not for you yet. You haven't earned your stripes.

[2:10] You need to go away. Cause this is your one and only spoiler warning. Why are you still here? Go, go. And we have links to our first time one in the show notes or wherever, uh, wherever you're watching or listening to this. So we made it super easy for you to head there. This week, Brent, we are watching an episode that will be full of spoilers, so if you're still here, ask yourself why. This episode's called The Summoning, and the first time around, we played a game where we predicted what the episode would be about based on the title alone.

[2:41] And my prediction really had to do a lot with the Rangers. Delenn is going to summon the rest of them and start getting the League Worlds to pitch in, but I don't think that things are going to go well for them. Like it's not gonna things are gonna go really badly when they get to zaha doom um and on babylon five both i figure people are gonna start questioning why delen gets to make this decision uh there's gonna be a ton of strife all really good question to ask honestly i think so right like what is this but i anticipate a lot of strife against her specifically um and then of course what becomes a regular prediction for me for quite some time is we'll find out what garibaldi's secret mission was all about and what happened to him wait that was something you were on too it wasn't just me it was both of us we were both all in on what it was both of us mission yeah it was both of us you say not just me okay got it totally justified in that um i said uh that this is going to be sheridan right i thought this one was going to focus on sheridan uh at least the summoning we would understand the summoning in terms of sheridan uh i i compared this to lord of the rings, You know, like we had – after Fellowship of the Ring, you have – there's the group with Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas, and then there's Sam and Frodo, and then there's –.

[4:01] Mary and off doing his thing and Mary. Oh, Mary. Thank you, Mary. I was trying to think the tree and I was like, wait, who's over there? Yeah. But you get these different stories. And I was kind of thinking that's that's really where we are. Our our crew is separated. And so this would focus really a lot more on him. I was saying basically it's going to be him summoning the power of the ancient ones to himself. We're like because, you know, we know he's down there with Laurie and some weird craps happening. Basically, he's like going to supercharge himself to like go do whatever.

[4:33] And based on the question we had, he's going to find his reason to live and not to die. So he's like going to level up. That's what I was really thinking the summoning was going to be about. Do you want to know what it actually was about and what we talked about the first time? I don't really care. All right, cool. Next segment.

[4:49] No, no, no, no. Actually, yes, I do. Because as we've often said, these episodes are running together for us. Right now. It's all sort of one big thing. So I don't necessarily, all I remember is this was an awesome set of episodes. At least that's what I remember thinking. Sometimes what we remember thinking is not what we actually thought the first time. So let's find out what we said the first time around, Jeff. Previously on Babylon 5 for the first time, the summoning, it's the shadows versus the Vorlons versus everyone else. Last week had a whole episode called whatever happened to mr garibaldi we got his story for 140 seconds at some point the shadows hand him over to psycor remember what happened to talia where she had that that personality supply i don't know if he got something like that done to him something's left with his mind i think we've seen this episode before and it was called a spider in the web this he's a cyber zombie i I think Garibaldi might be dead. Dude, Zach had the most chutzpah I've seen out of him in any episode to date. He's got those shoulder pads. And all of a sudden I start looking at everybody else in the show. These guys are into shoulder pads, just like Star Trek is.

[6:03] It's sad, but true. Okay, so Marcus and Ivanova having conversations that you didn't quite see coming, I guess. I mean, I could have gone down a path of virtue and romance for this section, you know, but it's fine. So I'll just, I'll lay off Marcus like everyone else in his life has. Kosh 2, Electric Boogaloo, is an asshole. Dude's bad news. Yeah. Is this how the Vorlons are? And old Kosh was the exception. It turns out we've got freaking Vorlons with freaking lasers on their heads. The Stations of the Cross as told through Jakar. Jakar tied up to a pillar and a dude whipping him is almost beat for beat what happens in the first station of the cross. In the second station...

[6:51] Is when Jesus accepts his cross, which I think is where Jakar accepted Londo's deal. The third station, Jakar falls for the first time. You speak about the stations of the cross. 39 lashes is what Jesus himself received. Is Sheridan going to leave Dillon? And he says, I will never leave you. That is the kind of line that we have learned JMS will drop and pick it up in, what do we got? We got a season and change left here, Jeff. We've seen this in another show where you get to the end and the guy has to leave. They have to leave. Seen this in a show where you get to the end and the guy has to leave. And then it's not till 25 years later where we get another show that kind of goes, Hey, whatever happened to him? And it turns out nothing. He never came back. Yeah. Spoiler alert. Not awesome stuff at all. Well, bro, I'm, that kind of makes me excited to watch this one. I honestly forgot this was the episode with the Jakar whipping scene. Oh, did you? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I guess I thought it was later or something. Again, they all kind of mushed together. But what do you say we dive into this one?

[8:01] Let's do it, my friend. Awesome. Well, hey, welcome, everybody. What's about to happen is we're going to watch the episode right here, right now with you. We'll talk about it while it's happening, pull out any messages, observations, things like that. What you're going to see on YouTube, if that's where you're watching this, you're going to see the edited reaction style video for the whole thing. If you want to see the full and unedited version, we post those on our Patreon page. You can get that at patreon.com slash bad nerds. And if you guys are listening to us on an audio podcasting app, you're going to hear the audio version of that YouTube video along with all of our conversations in between. We don't want you guys to feel left out. And then, you know, we'll still have all the conversations on the backside of that as well. So, Jeff, let's watch an episode. Let's do it. Accessing file. That's not necessary. I've been teaching myself. I'm already. I figured what the heck, you know, gave me something to do. I can handle the... Oh, I love this scene. Yep. I love what happens here. I know, but it's okay. Flakshah. Zindrabi. Hatrashul. Endolo. Ishiden. Brick.

[9:17] I love brick bat lingerie. It's my favorite. But yes. Very good. A thing that... So last week when Delenn's like, we're gonna go to Zaha Doom. I was very harsh on her last week. I was very harsh on her the first time around. I'm going to justify some of that harshness where she was like, we're just going to go. We're going to go. Yeah. Ivanova is the one, the one with the military background. Who's like, stand by. Like we may not have time to go think about this stuff, but let's drum up some support. Let's think about this at least a little bit tactically instead of just reactionary, which speaks to the need for diverse viewpoints on a team.

[10:00] You haven't had a drink. And so before we go too much further, there's something here that i want us to pay attention to okay jms uh regales the story andreas hated this jester's cap said he hated having to wear it he hated it hated it hated it he went and went into jms's office one day threw the thing down on his desk and was like do i have to wear this it makes me look ridiculous and jms was like duh that's the point this is cartagia putting it on jacar's head this has nothing to do with actually making you look good in fact the more ridiculous you look the better it's going to be and andreas was like okay it made sense specifically he says andrea side slapped it back on his head and slouched back to set. He says, watch, you can see it in his face, just how much he hates this thing. Suzanne in the council chambers chat asks if this is one of the stations of the cross also, and I'm adding it, it's cross to a, or station to a, which is take up your cross and your stupid hat. Well, to that, since we're already stopped, JMS says there were times I wondered if it was all just a tad too heavy handed, too on the nose, but I figured that the illusions would be obvious no matter how much I tried to soft peddle them. So why not go for broke? Okay.

[11:28] Well, I don't know that he's necessarily going through the stations of the cross specifically.

[11:34] He is definitely leaning in to the story, the passion story. Yeah. Yeah. So like that, I don't really specifically trying to mimic the stations as much as just here's the stuff. And he's, he is leaning, he's actively leaning into it. Not just, uh, certainly it's not coincidence.

[12:01] You know it's so great about that moment right there as he's pouring out the water you can see his mouth like oh like his mouth is like dry and like begging for it but he won't like open his mouth to to receive it even as it's being poured out everyone i hold dear is gone i remember the first time we heard this i was like everyone you care about what about lanier it's like i'm right here literally because she doesn't think of him like that man at least a dozen ships have reported seeing something rather godlike in the area and since neither you nor i were there must be one of the first ones i love that if you're gonna have delusions may as well go for the really satisfying ones you know there's some wisdom in that they have been blocking their journey basically if you're gonna fall you might as well try to fly right master you do understand don't you i gotta watch that scene again watch the dude holding the bowl when he tosses the silence silence where is the joy in that really he's so insubordinate i can't have him challenging my authority that way i know i made it he's like if i don't get my screen he'll have to be killed Do we say all the time, but like Cartagia, so all the little things, everything. Perfect. Jeff, I have long held a theory.

[13:28] About a certain character from the fifth season that overshadowed the first 10, 11 episodes, pretty much universally hated. And my theory for it has been he was written to be that way. And then if so, then he was acted to perfection by the actor. Which, while that doesn't make us like him, I can at least respect that. Does that make sense? I get that. Here's the thing.

[13:59] Cartagia is so delightfully evil. Like, we hate him. Every bit of him. There's nothing about him that we like. But he's amazing. He's amazing. Yes. Byron never gets like that. No. I don't think that they care about what happens to us anymore, Dylan. I think the game just got bigger than that. But there's two different ways to look at how she basically just said that. Oh, like they recently just cared about us, like until a couple weeks ago when Kosh died. And now they don't because they're just F everybody else, right? Or, you know, the argument has always been they really don't care about humanity and the lesser races and stuff. They just want obedience out of them. Do they not care about that anymore? Almost all of the Vorlon interaction the worlds have had have been with Kosh. And I would say Kosh did care. But we don't know what the Vorlons thought. And maybe what Lita's getting now is what the Vorlons have thought all along. So we thought they cared because of the actions of Kosh. So about that original Kosh, JMS says, certainly he came to care about us more than the other Vorlons intended.

[15:14] You didn't have to pull out of me so fast. You hurt me. Time out. I would like to read a rather extended passage from the words of JMS himself. Okay. I can't wait. He says, he was speaking about something else, and he says, in other instances, however, I was the last person to figure things out. I wandered on to set one day when they were preparing to shoot the scene with Lita and Alkesh, a.k.a. Kosh 2. Okay. To which he then annotates it. His annotation for Kosh 2 at the bottom of the page, Kosh 2, is Katsun Tite. I love it. I love it. Anyway, that's not it. He said, he found Pat Tallman sitting by the setup, getting touch-ups to her makeup. Interesting subtext to Lita's line, Pat said. as I was passing by where she says, you didn't have to pull out of me so fast. You hurt me. And then how he's so much more hard than Kosh was. I looked at her. She looked at me. I looked at her. I don't get it. She folded her arms and looked at me. I looked back at her.

[16:28] Oh, you're blushing. She said, hadn't even occurred to me. I can change it if you want. No, she said laughing. It's fine just as it is. Honest. Okay, let's be really clear. It was not fine just as it was. She just didn't want him to change it because he had no idea. What worse can come from this? I don't want to find out. Joe, I want to tell you something, buddy. It was not fine as it was. She was messing with you in that moment. Call her. He says he says i mumbled something and headed back to my office illuminating the hallway as a bright red as i went oh joe joe joe joe joe oh that's incredible with you it's as if i'm being used and then thrown away when i'm not needed anymore damn it i have earned some respect good Good for you Lita, good for you.

[17:34] Dude, Olkesh is a dick. Like, wow. Would you?

[17:47] Is that so much to ask for? That was a good cut from screaming Talando. It's your pride. I would no longer be a non. And if you are dead, are you still a non then? Toxic narnulity.

[18:01] Toxic narnulity. I mean, honestly, though, this is a clash of culture here. Yeah, exactly. That's ultimately what it is. Well, I guess that's a question then. I don't know what it would be, but you have a cultural norm, a cultural standard, really. And you're part of a big plan to make a big change happen. It's substantial and you know it's going to take a lot. But to get to that point, you have to go counter to your culture in a fundamental way. This isn't like, oh, I'm going to eat with the dinner fork before the salad fork kind of cultural thing. This is who they are, their identity. What do you do? What's more important? Adhering to my cultural norms that are beyond a choice. It's who I am or compromise those knowing that that's what will have a better impact on everyone. Well, Jeff, this is one of those, uh, this is one of those questions that frankly, um, Star Trek does quite a bit where we, we honor and respect other people's cultural norms. But at some point when that comes in conflict with the mission, with what we have going on with whatever society where we have to check that at the door. So where is the balance? There is a balance between we're going to respect social norms and cultural norms and let you have that, and you're going to have to conform to more of the way we do things.

[19:22] And the answer to that, the thing that Star Trek has answered more than others, and we've seen it in Stargate as well, we're seeing it here, the answer to that is there's no real good answer. Yeah, I agree. There's really not. And those are just two ideas that are in conflict with each other, two values of….

[19:42] I value and respect the idea that you have a cultural way of doing this, but we can't let you do it that way, especially when it gets in the way of the mission. Yeah. Then says that while he understands Jakari's with Wando, cultural norms won't mean much if you have no culture anymore. And you're right. And that's the logic side of it. But does it matter if you have, does, does having the culture mean anything if you've lost yourself? I think it's the other side of that. Right. But you won't have a chance to know if you, if you lose your culture, you lose it altogether. So I think like, Part of where Jakar is going is like, yeah, I'll save my culture, but I will never be a part of it anymore. They won't accept me if I do this thing. Yeah. Giving it all up or giving it all up. It's, you know, it's a Sophie's choice for him. Yeah. But we, from our ivory tower, can look down and be like, well, yeah, Londo's right. Our little comfy chairs and our little couches and our TVs with our popcorn. Yep. I can say that Jakar is wrong. I can say that. And with my cultural values and what I know of the greater story, I am justified in that. I don't know what his situation is. I think he says it best. You don't know what you are asking of me.

[20:53] And you're right. Londo doesn't. I don't.

[20:57] And that prompts a thought for me in terms of just our day-to-day interactions with people, right? I don't care if you, what your ethnicity is, your country and place of origin, where you're living now, you are, have different cultural values than other people around you. That's just how, that's how it works, right? Right. When someone says no, or I can't based on a cultural value they have, is it better for us to be like, yeah, you're wrong. Bad things will happen if you do this. So do it my way. Or are you better saying, you're right. I don't understand what I'm asking. Help me understand. Not that Lando necessarily has time for that. One, there's the wherewithal of a person to be able to ask that question. But then as you just said, sometimes we don't have time to ask that question.

[21:42] We're under the gun here. We got to go. And we got to just make this happen. And I think that's where logic does tend to win out. I think that's where the Vulcan way or maybe even the Mimbari way you might say, sometimes you just got to do what you got to do. And the feelings, while they matter, don't really matter. It makes me actually think about being a manager or a supervisor. I have a joke that there's only one thing that separates a solid manager from a therapist. And that's at some point during the conversation and someone sharing their feelings with you as a manager, you get a point where you say, okay, I understand that. It makes sense you feel that way. Uh, how are we going to get this deadline met? Like, let's get back to work. Therapist just lets you share the things. You mean you don't, you haven't.

[22:31] Yes. Me and Veer. You're a... Exactly. With anyone? Never met the right person before. I thought the first ones were rare. Pause. Okay. We've got another passage. So much for this one. Another. No, this is a passage, Jeff. The day the script was published to the cast, Jason found me at the lunch table and said, so let me get this straight. Ranger fighter martial arts guy who sits around playing with this pike all day lost my brother 30 years old i'm out saving worlds and i'm a virgin well you spent most of your adolescent life on a mining colony where there are mainly other guys around i said then the ranger ranger training on mimbar required you to learn discipline to turn away from the pleasure of the flesh handsome dashing fellow that i am and i'm still a virgin saving it all this time for the right woman well jms said back not so much saving it as you just haven't had the right venue in which to spend it okay.

[23:35] An interesting use of the word venue there. He looks at him and goes, right. And then he stalks off to get some food from the catering truck. Are we okay on this? I called after him. I'm over it. He said, apparently he wasn't over it because JMS says just last month as I type this, which is decades later, Jason Carter gave an interview to a B5 oriented podcast. I want to know which podcast that was. I want to hear this. I want to hear this one. Says he spent 10 minutes at full volume decrying the fact that marcus was still a virgin 10 years later and he's still pissed off about it and i find that strangely comforting and how honestly how great is that you know i mean you know i've had this and i don't want to dive into this conversation but it's like there's sex and then there's like connection yeah and making love you know as it were a lot of they have a lot of similarities but they're not the same thing, and marcus is a poet right like he wants that full he wants to give all of himself and receive all of someone else he doesn't want to just knock it out i get that.

[24:53] This is a really good shot coming back onto the whole thing, can really capture the scale of it that way look at these big ships we have that are dwarfed by this thing what happened after you left i still say that looks like it's attached to the outside of the ship two weeks, Wish you heard him. And you don't know. He died at Zaha Doom. Paul says every time Garibaldi gets put out for a few days, the CO dies. Right.

[25:34] You know, it occurs to me, Jeff, at this point in the episode, we're over halfway there. Not much has actually happened in this episode. Right. So far. Like laying brick for stuff. They're just moving people into places, all that this episode has been so far. They must be free to speak their minds. So this hits me with, I'm like in management mode today or something, but there's a mechanism in providing good leadership where in a command control environment, you tell people what to do and you just tell them what to do. In a collaborative, inclusive environment, you tell them why. It's one thing to say, hey, you can't wear fragrances in the workplace. Don't do it. It's another thing to say, we have a number of people here who are wildly sensitive to fragrances and when they're exposed to them, often have to leave and take sick time. And so we're not able to get our work done. If you just tell me not to do a thing, oh, I'm going to do that thing.

[26:32] Almost 100% of the time. But when you tell me, hey, if I do this thing, I'm going to hurt someone and impact my chance to do what I'm supposed to be here. Okay, I get that. I will find an unscented beard oil to start using. Delenn, skip that step of the why. Unless you're in a military hierarchy type of structure, for the most part in every other facet of the world or life, people need to know why they need to understand the why in order for it to happen. Because here's the other thing. There's the letter of the law, the letter of the rule, the letter of whatever. But oftentimes you're going to encounter situations where that letter may not be exactly what's appropriate. So people have to understand the why in order to adjust and accommodate what you're doing in that moment. You're speeding down the highway.

[27:25] You shouldn't be speeding. Cop tries to pull you over. Okay. I have a pregnant lady in the back seat who already has a breached birth going on and things are hanging out. We've got to go. Now, in that case, you pull over, you let the cop see that, and then let him lead you there. That's how you handle that. Yeah. You don't go on a high-speed chase. Exactly. To the hospital, right? You will. Bad stuff's going to happen. But my point being, and that's an extreme example, extreme example. But the point being, there are situations where the letter of the law doesn't apply as much as the spirit of the law. And if people don't understand that, then they can get lost in legalism and not – I'll give you a good example.

[28:09] I was in a theater production company one time, right? And the executive director of the theater, we were watching a show. We were doing a thing, and the room went dark. Like the thing just went black is what the script called for. It's where it was. And when it went dark in that room we understand this is theater this is room no there's no windows right it got dork yeah right and and the executive director said hey uh we never need to go full black like that again for the next two years you understand the executive director doesn't come and see every single show all the time right for the next two years there was a standing rule that we We never go black in a play. It was actually when I came in to the organization that they kept saying this like, no, no, we can't go back. And I'm like, that makes no sense because now we're seeing stuff that's stuff that's not supposed to be seen. That's that's on stage. And I'm not saying, uh, we're seeing people move around. We're not supposed to, I mean, there, there are certain things that's really, you're not supposed to see cause things have to go darker. You're missing the effect. You're missing the drama of, of what you're doing. It turns out what the executive director really just meant was.

[29:17] Don't put everybody in the dark and then not have like the aisle lights on or something of that nature where there's a safety issue not never let it go black on stage yeah like let it go black on stage it's fine but there was it was in and also not an extended period like it needs to be like for for the beat that's that's very intentional right um and we were able to get that changed but again that was people who didn't understand the why behind it who were applying it in ways that it ought not be applied yep and i think there's one more just as we keep adding on to the story because i think this is a big i think this is a huge point in the mark of delen wanting to go to zaha doom and then sheridan showing up and shifting the focus a little bit but i have a friend who is an art an author and um leadership consultant guy david marquet he's got some incredible books he was a commanding officer of a los angeles class fast attack submarine which is the type of sub I served on. And he utilized a very different command style. And he wasn't top down on a military thing. And he wanted people's input and all this. He built this incredible environment. Turn the Ship Around is the name of the book that tells this story. I highly recommend it. But he talks about there were times when he couldn't stop and explain everything. I need this thing to happen. I need it to happen right now.

[30:32] And the two things that are important about that is one because he didn't do that all the time when he did everybody knew oh this is serious right this is a real so they they did it without question the other thing is once they got through the situation you'd pull everybody together and say here's why i told you to do this it was never just i told you to do it and you do it yeah he still provides the why tell people the why folks that's the point that's the message of the summoning tell people the why i just see there There must be another... I must have my screen. If he does not screen... I love this blocking. He dies.

[31:11] Like cartagia just staring at jakar barely even noticing londo there like he's just yeah it's his choice not mine proceed what that that is the excuse of a torturer oh he it's he he's the one who's choosing this it's his choice nine i'm absolved, The fact we actually count from 0 to 39 here is crazy.

[32:06] Two things from that one i think jacquard did that intentionally take it to 39 and then scream i think he knew that walking into that i'm not going to scream he i think had he not had his conversation with londo he would have still not screamed when he screamed he did that on purpose i agree but i also don't think that he i think he also intentionally did not scream on lash one two three he could have saved himself all of that anguish knowing he was going to scream anyway if he just would have done it earlier to satisfy his own culture of knowing he could make it all the way to the end and he would take it all the way out also we are doing a thing here i'm gonna go all the way right up to the edge and then like it's that's his like test of narn hood yeah whatever right you know what i mean uh it just occurred to me watching that like i don't think that was he just because it bothered me the first watch it it's so convenient right it's the bomb that ticks down and they happen to stop it with just one second left on the clock oh we got really close and we almost come on guys it's just too over dramatic right well i think to like stop it with seven seconds left on the clock one the scream was more of a sing than a scream and secondly he didn't scream when he got hit like it would have gone ah as opposed to.

[33:26] Ah, like he wanted to be very clear. I think that he chose to scream, but of this JMS says the way they shot the whipping scene, uh, was to have a padded post behind Andreas just outside of the camera range. Okay. So that the torture could whip as hard as he wanted and wouldn't have to pull his shots. He could actually really just go and not hit, which even if Andreas was wearing a padded jacket the whipper would have to have to pull back and this way he didn't have to pull back he could just go so they're hitting a post not not him by the end of the scene after multiple takes.

[34:08] So you can imagine that they did they did 40 whips multiple times that whippers arm must have just been oh jello noodle yeah right but not just his arm the scream that andreas did oh yeah how many times did he have to do that scream a scream which by the way the script called for a scream, from the depths of his soul and andreas took that very seriously so with that by the end of all of those things the whip was in tatters and andreas himself his voice was in tatters because he had to keep screaming like that the fact that he gave so much that he his voice was effective i'm he He doesn't detail exactly what that means by saying in tatters. I just assume his voice was shot for several days. He says, this is something that Andreas not only gave me grief about for the next two seasons, when we met for our last supper, just prior to him passing away, he was still giving me a hard time about it. Really? So that's two things from this episode that JMS is still getting a hard time from about the, from the cast members. It's using our own access codes. It's activated the docking base.

[35:15] It's amazing they didn't change out his codes just as a security precaution yeah stargate they would have changed that gdo access code like that they will destroy us all they will come anyway you don't know that probably don't want to be yelling at her dude don't think it's gonna work out for you i think this is the thing though i think he does have to yell at her what we it's not that it's effective clear okay but sheridan's about to come in and essentially get everyone to do the thing that Delenn wanted them to do in the first place. But Delenn, I've talked about it last week. I've talked about it here this week. She just told people what to do. Hey, everybody, get your ships. We're going to Zaha Doom. One last step. She said a great thing in this episode that my voice, their voice is just as free as mine and mine is as free as theirs. I want it. They have the right to say what they want to say. If that was true, she would have had these conversations with the Drazi and the Hayek and the Bercurian. But instead, they had to organize a protest rally to stop her in her tracks. She's so laser focused on this attack that I gotta tell you, makes zero sense. What do we know about the shadows? We know they are spread throughout the galaxy, have seeded for a thousand years. So you're gonna go attack their home world where some of them are? Like, it's not a good plan. But the fact that they have to do this to push against her, I think says everything about her military leadership approach.

[36:44] Meaning it's not good. It's not good. It's the Minbari way. But she's not a military person. Exactly. Exactly. It would be like me showing up and telling. But she is the one. The Drazi guy doesn't care about that. She's acting on her authority as the one, though. Doing the best she can, man. The best way she knows how. And she's dealing with all these emotions she's never dealt with before, which might be a good reason for her to not do some stuff. Yeah.

[37:09] Welcome some counsel. Like this is a thing that had she said, hey, I want to hear. Brecure guy comes and says they're going to organize a protest. Hey, can we reach out? I would love to sit down with these people and hear their concerns and then share my perspective. And we talk about this. Instead, no, I'm going to come counter-protest your protest. Counter-protest your protest. Which happens and very rarely ends well for one side or the other. But I just think this is a thing where Dillon is out of her depth and is doubling down on ensuring they still do the thing. And the thing is, the way I see it, and I'm curious, I don't remember what Sheridan's full plan is that he says here, but to commit 100% of your forces to a fraction of the enemy's forces, at best is symbolic, and at worst is just stupid. Somebody should have told George Washington that back in the day. That's a good point, though, Brent, I think that lines up with the misthinking that the Drazi and Hayek have here that worked for Washington and the American revolutionaries because they were dealing with a power that could be reasoned with at some level. These are the shadows. The Drazi think we can sit down and talk about things with them. They are more wrong than Delenn is. But this isn't a group you can sit down and reason with internally. They can sit down and reason with each other, but not with the shadows.

[38:31] No one has ever succeeded. Ships go there and never return. No one's ever negotiated a ceasefire with them either. This is so frustrating to watch because they are both so wrong. Both of them. Which, again, I think is the brilliance of bringing Sheridan in because he's the one who's got to be like, uh-uh, uh-uh, do this. Yeah, except he's also Jesus. There's that. Soon to be Jesus Christ superstar. Yeah. I frankly, though, Jeff, I'm going to give you a hot take here.

[39:02] I really would have preferred Sheridan and Lorian to stay on Zaha Doom a bit longer and work some more stuff out. Where they left it at the end of the last episode, I was not ready. They needed more time over there to work some stuff out. Sheridan did not feel like he was ready to come home to me just yet. And I understand there's stuff that can happen off screen that we just don't see. I understand we've got to move the story forward. I get all that. But I think there was a lot of good stuff happening between Lorian and Sheridan that I wasn't ready for that to be done. And there's just so much more that could have happened and probably should have happened. Had Sheridan got to spend that much more time with Lorian there, I wonder how Sheridan would have been different. You know what I mean? Because he comes home, he makes some really baffling decisions here over the next two years that we see, right? And I wonder how much better prepared he would have been. I think that highlights one of the differences between Babylon 5 and Star Trek.

[40:01] If this storyline was a Star Trek one, a full episode, there would have been a full episodes worth full 45 minutes of Lorraine and Sheridan. Talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk about things deep. Phil saw all these awesome. It would be engaging and awesome. This is Babylon 5. Hey, so they're talking about stuff. Cool. I understand it. We're going to get into it a little bit. They're probably talking about stuff on the ship. They're probably talking about stuff in the offices. But let's get, let's get to the story. A way to stop this insanity. Becky's like, I was only mostly dead. The lens fleet is a start. I like how he gives her credit. I appreciate that. But to change the shape of the galaxy. Listen to the music coming in here. Not just for ourselves, but for our children. Can I count on you? Will you stand together?

[40:44] Can I count on you? Will you stand together? Not will you stand with me, but will you stand together? That's exactly what I was going to say. Again, I am totally beating a dead horse here, but I think it's important because I don't think people choose to watch Babylon 5 oftentimes with a critical eye to Delenn. Right. And I want to be super clear here. I'm not, like, Delena is fantastic. She's great. She's out of her depth. She got those people together and told them, this is what we're going to do.

[41:17] Sheridan told them the problem and the solution and then said, can I count on you? Right. He asked. He gave them the why, the how, and asked. It really leads to essentially a similar outcome, but how you get there is so critical.

[41:35] Now over in the council chambers chat there's some chatter going on that i fully expected walking into this one and i'm gonna i'm gonna rewind it no i'm gonna write it because we're right there but i'm gonna watch this through this lens the first time around i felt delen running up to that catwalk was just her trying to grab a piece of the spotlight you did and i, wanted to punch you for it i'm sure yeah i want to watch and see if i still have that same impression this time okay uh the other thing jeff i have a question for you okay can you cut some to lend some slack with the understanding that she's not a military person and doesn't know military stuff and she's just doing the best she can as a religious leader who's not a military person and sheridan comes in as a trained military officer and leader who knows what he's doing when steps in there i could cut her some slack if she didn't commit to the role of a top-down command and conquer military person like i'll give her grace she's she's out of her depth but she kept going and literally told all of these people you have to go die if she didn't pull everyone else in and it was her own thing awesome you make your mistakes you try you follow the calling of your heart you do that but you've wrapped in every non-aligned world into this as well i think that crosses the line from out of giving grace well to quote our friend andrew in the council chambers.

[42:54] I've heard she's just a bag of hot air sometimes sometimes although aren't we all ugly bags of Mostly water.

[43:16] So what do you think was she just going up to grab the spotlight or was she just going for the dude she loved she was totally going for the dude that she loved it's just unfortunate that it had to be against the backdrop of all the people she just she didn't look at them she didn't ham it up she and john only had eyes for each other in that moment and look at john being able to like be in front of all these people and then like turn his attention and just be singularly focused on her in the middle of that only to her yeah and delen in the chat just said the same only they have just eyes for each other the crowd doesn't exist so i formally recant my statement that she was hogging the spotlight wow trey brought this up and our council chambers hang and just reminded And I'm glad, Trey, you did that. Lanier's look, when he was looking up there, let me go back to it real quick. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so when we watched it the first time, and I had a little bit of this feeling as well just now, but it was like, he's like, yeah, we're going to go get it, or whatever. Not that look. Well, even that look. Did you see that? He's just kind of deadspin. Can I count on you? I think this is where the seed of hate is truly starting to grow within linear I count on you will you stand together look at that he's just staring him down, he also only has eyes for Sheridan and not in a good way.

[44:45] Yeah she didn't even notice the crowd.

[44:51] And the filmmaking of this, the crowd getting quieter and quieter because they only exist for each other right now. It's kind of beautiful. I've got to tell you, it's actually a great scene. I want you to interpret Lanier's look there. What was it about? I think it was a combination of hating that Sheridan came in and effectively did the thing that Delenn did. But did it to efficacy. And i think it is a little bit of like i just noticed that delen left me for him they were back to back in that crowd until he showed up and not only did she leave him for for dirt the beginning of the episode he wasn't even mentioned among the people she cared about so james says yep i'd say it's very likely that some people close to sheridan, now let you determine if you think linear is one of those close to sheridan are going to be wondering about his attitude and maybe even acting on it certainly there will be some people who will wonder exactly the same thing as you do within the context of the show and wonder if sheridan has gone too far if he gets too messianic in his approach now that's clearly a shot at garibaldi knowing where he goes it is also could be a shot at lanier being more than just one person, than just garibaldi his name is laurian that's all you need to know for now.

[46:14] Who decided that? He did. Well, isn't that convenient? Yeah, not a great answer. Michael, what the hell is that? I told you I trust him. I know, I know. Secrets on top of secrets, right? Did you see Lorian's response there? So as soon as we got back, I had CNC. Yeah, wind that back just a smidge. I'm not sure any transmissions, anything. A couple of them were three, four miles across. He's in. Yeah. Yeah, he's like, I didn't know that. We lost them somewhere around sector 70. Lorian is the parent who just got called into the principal's office, describing this horrific thing their kid did. He can't believe this. and he can't defend this kid yeah at all in that moment yeah but not just got called into the kid over some or into the office over something his kid did got called into office over something that his kid did to his little brother at school at school and it caught a bunch of other kids in the process this isn't just something my kid did bad so this is something my kid did to his own brother and uh yeah there's a point being made in a council chamber's chat i want to highlight really quick um and that we just talked about the why right and how shared and explained it dylan didn't all the benefits there juxtapose that with now where he's just got this dude wearing a crown.

[47:24] Showing up and no explanation whatsoever just hey i brought him here so it's okay but for the record that's not a crown that's his his holder for his infinity stone right his soul hunter egg.

[47:45] The music cues just fading from that god powerful, That's the summoning, Brent. Anything else that JMS said that we didn't get a chance to talk about? Well, he left something open for debate that I thought we could have a discussion on. Okay. And it's something we've actually been talking about a bit. But if the Shadows and Vorlons are so far advanced, why haven't the Shadows wiped everyone out already, including Babylon 5? Are you asking? Because it's not their intent to kill people. It's their intent to control people. They don't want to blow them up. They want to raise them, right? I think we talked about this, where they see Lorien as their parent, and they want, both the Shadows and Vorlons want the lesser races to see them as the parent. So they might want to whoop them, but they don't want to kill them.

[48:36] That'd be my thought. JMS has a line where he says here, he says up till now, they haven't meaning the shadows haven't been out to destroy everyone. That's not the point. You can't sow chaos. If there's no one around in which to sow chaos, right? Yeah. And they may have some ideas on how Babylon five could be turned to their advantage. Dun, dun, dun. Look at that. Yeah. But, uh, I think it's, yeah, yeah. You can't sow chaos if there's no one around to sow chaos to kind of the point that Londo was making to Jakar earlier.

[49:06] Yeah. Like, hey, you can't save your culture if there's no culture to save. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, if y'all ain't around anymore. So what's she going to do? Also, though, I do think that the whole idea is that the shadows feel that the best way to encourage the growth of other species is through chaos and conflict. Mm-hmm. That is an altruistic reason to sow chaos. All right. All right. Do you see what I'm saying? However, just given the way that JMS speaks here, it really feels as if he's even saying here that the shadows are sowing chaos really just for the sake of sowing chaos, not necessarily for the betterment. I'm just saying it's an inference that I'm making into something that I think he is maybe even unwittingly implying. Okay. Which I still think just makes that mean the shadows are bad. I think they are bad. And so are the Vorlons. I just think their motives are not altruistic. That might even be the difference. The Shadow's motives are altruistic. Their methods are awful. The Vorlon's methods are not altruistic, but the methods are sound. They're not as awful. I think they're still pretty awful. I'm not talking about the setting yourself up to be everybody's god, but the...

[50:26] Advancement through culture and art and that sort of stuff. We're going to teach people these things and let them develop as they develop, not necessarily shape them according to the way their gods are like they're gould or something. Yeah. Also will genetically manipulate you to match our idea of what you should be. But they didn't genetically manipulate you to match their idea. They genetically manipulated you so that you could defeat those over there who want to actually kill and destroy you. So you could be cannon fodder to our enemy. Is it being cannon fodder though? or is it giving you a sense of defense? I think it gives them a sense. It doesn't. Giving you the ability to defend yourself. I don't think that it's that. No. Because no one knew that. No one knew that was a thing that the telepaths could do. They're just like, oh, we have telepaths and we got to figure out how this works. And the whole time the Voron are like, yeah, so you can go fight them and you get killed. Then we can come and sweep up the mess. Or, hey, you guys are going to be taken out by these ultra powerful beings that you have absolutely no chance. Let's give you a chance to at least fight back. Yeah, but no one knew that. They had to figure that out for themselves. Well, you still have to figure it out for yourselves, but I'm at least going to give you the ability to do it because I have a code that I can't interfere in the development of your culture, although that's exactly what I'm doing. But still, I can't interfere in the development of your culture. You've got to figure it out for yourself. I'll give you this much. The rest is up to you.

[51:44] I'll give you the tool, but you've got to figure out how to use it. Yeah, yeah. That's the best I can do. There's no YouTube tutorial. This is on you. They're going to come and destroy you. Can you help us out? Well, best I can do is give you the tool to do it yourself. How would you like this fishing pole? I know you're starving, but here you go. Now you got to figure out how to fish on your own. Good luck. Yeah. Good luck. Anything else message wise that we didn't touch on during the episode? Uh, no, I'm trying to, I think we covered all of at least our own things. At least for me, I don't know if you had anything extra that you wanted to dive into. I don't know. I think, I think we had some really good conversation during the episode, which brings us now Brent to the ranking part of this, which this week lands on you. We are developing as we have now for many, many seasons and multiple franchises, the objectively correct and definitive rankings of the episodes within their seasons. I'm going to go ahead and read everything we have right now. In number two, we have The Hour of the Wolf. And in number one, Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi? Brent, where it is?

[52:45] The Summoning Land. You know, I know we've had discussions as to whether or not we should combine these first six episodes and think of them as one big, long episode. And I don't know that that discussion is fully closed. But today, I think it's very easy to separate these. I think there is a stark difference between the first two episodes and this particular episode. And that's noted in nothing else more than I looked down at 28, 29 minutes of the episode. And I said, you know, not really is a lot happened in this episode. That's not to say the episode is not important. That's not to say the episode is boring. That's not to say that the episode doesn't do anything. That's not to say that nothing important happens inside the episode. All I just said was there's not a lot that's going on. There's a lot of moving people into places, things like that. It's very, uh, there's some emotionally charged things. There's getting things ready, but if you apply the litmus test, which episodes do I want to watch first? I want to watch the other two episodes hand over fist more than I want to watch this one. Again, I say this does not mean this is a bad episode. This does not mean I don't want to rewatch this episode. This does not mean that I don't like this episode. It just means when I compare it to the other two, I'm going for the other two better or more. I'm going for those other two first. I enjoyed those more. I had more of a good time. Had more intrigue. Again, very disappointed we didn't get Lorian and Sheridan.

[54:03] Back on Zaha Doom. I think there was a lot left there. I'm not going to ping it just because it didn't do what I wanted it to do, but, Still, this is number three. Wow. All right. It is in the top three. It is. Absolutely.

[54:15] Absolutely. And on the conversation of lumping all six of them together, we haven't talked about our for the first time rankings yet, but those six episodes are scattered throughout the top 20. Are they? Yeah. Okay. There's quite a bit of range between a lot of them. So, and of course, in one big story, there's going to be peaks and valleys that makes sense. but I think there's enough of a difference that I don't think it would make sense to rank them all together. Fair enough. Of course, we may change our mind on that. Just give us, just give us a couple of days. Who knows what'll happen. Right. That's it for the summoning next week. The episode we're watching is called falling toward apotheosis. What do you remember about this one? Or do you remember your reaction being to this one? Again, my reaction to remembering, especially these first six episodes is they're all awesome. They're all awesome. I remember really questioning what the word apotheosis meant, because that's a new word to me.

[55:13] I'm trying to remember what comes after Jakar being whipped. I mean, we've got to turn. So this is going to be episode four. Cartagia still has got a couple episodes left, so we're not there yet. It has to be more Garibaldi getting uppity about Lorien and Sheridan coming back. They're gathering. Yeah, I don't. It was good. That's my memory, Jeff. it was good how about you i kind of remember the same yeah i remember liking the title quite a bit i think that this is the episode that jakar loses his eye um i think okay and if it is i remember just i mean hated everything about it but an incredible scene at the same time i just i think that's a theme through this six episode arc specifically with londo and jakar in most of these episodes we get moments with just the two of them that are just incredible.

[56:05] We often, and by we, I mean, we as a Babylon five fandom collectively will often talk about the scenes that are between Jakar and Londo and how wonderful they are. I don't think we talk nearly enough about the scenes that are between Londo and Veer and just those two guys. Yeah, that's good. And they're, I'm, I'm stumbling over saying equally as wonderful, but they really might be. Okay. They really might be because there's just some such great stuff between those two. And sometimes Vera's right in Londo's pocket and other times he's there pushing back against a beer or pushing back against Londo and giving Londo what he needs and helping things go forward. And it's, oh my God, the, the stuff between Londo and Veer today, particularly when they were watching, um, yeah, Jakar get whipped.

[56:56] The two of them, how they were acting together. Just phenomenal. It really was phenomenal stuff. Yeah. I think that with the Veer and Londo stuff, I see that more as like, I can see the mentoring happening between Peter Juricic and Stephen first. Like those scenes are elevated as a result of Peter Juricic grabbing control of it and going, Not saying Stephen first isn't a great actor, but like Londo is making this, this, they're, they're playing their roles. Yeah. Whereas Londo and Jakar are two masters of their craft, plying their trade. Fair. But I also think like to give credit to kind of continue that idea, we see Sheridan and a torture guy here in a little while, just the two of them. Absolutely intense and incredible. Back in season two, we saw Delenn and, uh, Sebastian Wayne Alexander in a room.

[57:44] The caliber and skill of the actors on this show, it's sometimes overwhelming how good they are. And sometimes it's overwhelming how bad they are. Agreed. Looking at you, Leona Kimmer. Hey, I like looking at Leona Kimmer. Wow. Maybe she'll be in this next episode. That'd make me happy. You can find out by subscribing to us wherever you're watching or listening. Leave a comment. Leave a rating review. If you leave a comment, let me know your thoughts on Leona Kimmer. You got me pointing that direction now, Brent. Thanks for that. That's good. But yeah, make sure you're doing all those things. The thing you can do for us that really makes a huge difference and we appreciate with our whole hearts is sharing this show. Just share our show with somebody who loves Babylon 5 or you think can convince them to finally watch this incredible series. So until next time, for Brent, Jeff. Yeah, what's up? I can't believe you just went there, man. That's it. I'm out. Out? What do you mean out? I'm out of here. Dude, you – I get what you're doing, but you do not have to pull out of me that fast. I mean, we're not some deep space franchise. This station is about something.