The Long Night | For the Second Time

[0:44] The year is 2026. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time.

[0:52] Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And my name is Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, and then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and everything changed. So now we're watching this incredible series for the second time because Babylon 5 is a series that you get to watch for the first time twice.

[1:17] That's right. We have watched this show for the first time. This is our second time. And that opening, that intro, all lines from the first time. One of the things we're doing this time is we are looking for messages. And I know what you're thinking, but guys, that's what you did the first time. And we're like, yeah, but there might have been some things that we didn't catch the first time. And that includes messages. So we're still looking for them. We're looking for things that hold up a mirror to society, things that give us hope. Life will be better in the future, or maybe they just show us how to be better human beings to one another. Now, as we have said multiple times, this is not our first time. This is our second time going through this series. Jeff and I have seen it all the way through. And therefore, anything from any point in the timeline, anywhere in the franchise, in-universe, out of universe, in the show, out of the show, in books, in comic books, in cons, random stuff that people say on Reddit, whatever. It is all fair game for Jeff and I to talk about and to touch on. So if you have never been through this show for the very first time, we beg you stop, stop, just press pause, scroll back up, go to our first watch, which is completely spoiler free, because this is your one and only spoiler warning. Why are you still here? Go, go.

[2:28] This week, Brant, we're watching the long dark. No, I hate this episode. I know. Why do we keep coming back to this episode? It's just that it has its own gravitational pull, and we have to keep hitting it. It just keeps sucking us back in. Now, we're watching the sequel to The Long Dark. It's called The Long Night. Well, then. No. We played a game the first time when we watched this where we predicted what the episode was going to be about, and I'm pretty sure I made some jokes about that then, so I'll stop making those jokes now. But for The Long Night, I predicted that Shadow, probably not Morden, but maybe Morden, was going to come on to Babylon 5, and the result of that was going to be a temporary alliance.

[3:09] Between Babylon 5 and the Shadows to take on the Vorlon. What did you predict for this one? I would like to read the transcript. Good luck. This is like the penultimate episode, and for those who don't know, penultimate means the next to last, the one right before the last. This is like the penultimate episode, maybe like four of six or five of six or something like that for when the big battle is happening. Now, I wasn't talking about this being a penultimate episode, although that's what it is for this arc. But what happens in a penultimate episode with a big battle? You get something like the Battle of Helm's Deep or something like that, where the battle has to fight all through the night. Game of Thrones did a whole episode that basically was this. You see this all the time in literature, and we know that JMS is certainly pulling from a lot of literature. So I said that this would have big battle scenes, lots of epic stuff happening, maybe an all-out war probably between the Vorlons and Babylon 5 since we just killed Kosh 2. But basically it's that like you just have to survive until Gandalf comes over the hill is basically is what we're waiting on. We're just we're waiting on those reinforcements to come. All you got to do is survive. He's going to come over at light on the third day or whatever. First light on the third day. And I said this also might be the episode where Lando and Viren act their plan to assassinate Cartagia.

[4:36] I am pointing out, I said that prior to ever seeing the episode, and I had not read show descriptions, I had not read spoilers, never saw a trailer for it, nothing. Not even thumbnails for the show. Not even thumbnails. I tried to avoid those as much as I could and didn't remember them even if I did see them.

[4:55] Well, you want to know what we actually talked about when we watched it the first time? I would love to know what we actually talked about when we watched it the first time. I would too. Let's watch this thing. Let's do it. Previously on Babylon 5 for the first time. The Long Night. So let's talk about Londo. Yeah. Fear, Cartagia, Jakar. Your heart is empty, Malari.

[5:17] I thought a lot about that. Londo, who was, I forgot how to dance. Our favorite Londo. He let that Londo die to get back into his political scheming. That moment he let that Londo die is when his heart emptied. Londo is Centauri. And he makes his decisions. He does the hard things the Centauri way, including taking out the Emperor. Yeah, he didn't really do it. Veer did. Veer might be a top three interesting character when you really look at the journey he has taken and where he's finding himself. Veer had this in his hand and he made the decision, I'm stabbing you with this. He kills Cartagia, he's been drinking, and he just lays into Londo. Like that is Veer and maybe even Stephen First's like crowning moment. But you know what's different about him and Londo? Veer has a heart. He cares. It hurts. I'm watching them like tear up the throne set and all that kind of stuff. And I'm like, are they doing this because they're not going to use it anymore?

[6:27] Jakar says, I did not remove one dictator from the throne just to become a dictator myself.

[6:36] If we talk about Midnight on the Firing Line, that Jakar probably would have taken that deal. When that dude looks at him, it's like, we've all been here. What have you done? Midnight on the Firing Line Jakar would have punched him in his pouch. This Jakar just laughed and walked away. Like that moment when he literally said, they're already dead and we should pity them. That's enlightenment. That is growth. That is wisdom that only comes from enduring. It was great. It was powerful. Vanova comes in. She and Sheridan are having a little chit chat. You know, she's talking about like, you know, hey, we just had another 10 ships join and we've never seen anything this big. Has Sheridan created a federation? Of planets that are united this is how star trek gets started this is such a better story than the one they gave us an enterprise well those fighting words tricky right it's true though it's absolutely true yeah it is true listen all all love and due respect to enterprise this is the better story and it's really not close because you know what they don't have an enterprise or star trek at all Wando, Jakar, JMS. They also don't have pouch punches. That was funny.

[8:00] Wando does the hard thing. The Centauri way that carries true literally till his dying breath. Yeah. He does it. The Centauri way. He has a Centauri through and through all the way to his dying breath. He calls himself at one point, a Patriot. And yes. And, and I tell you what, and he is a it's an ouchy pouchy pouchy i like that from ben that's from ben that's ben.

[8:31] Uh uh jeff i said something there and i'm going to stand by it right now veer is a top three most interesting character for his arc, In fact, I would put those, and probably in this order, Jakar, Londo, Veer. Well, I think – I don't disagree, but I also think – well, yeah, maybe like that's a thing. When you look at them in episode one and then season five, episode 22, who has undergone the most change?

[9:01] And, I mean, you could make a case for it being Veer. I don't think I have to make a case. He made the case. And, you know, definitely Veer. I mean, certainly Londo as well. People have often said that Babylon 5 is the story of Londo Malari, and I don't disagree with that. Jakar's transformation, though, from episode one to the end is when he's walking off the station with Lita to go off on their little side adventure. Oh, my God. Yeah. It's just something else. But Veer, the growth that he has. And the thing about Veer's growth is it wasn't linear. No he said it was up and it was down and he had backslides and he went up and then he went back and and he was it was it was it was a true honest growth it's something we can relate to as viewers it's real yeah you know i think sci-fi fantasy some of these other you know types of genres paint these fantastical pictures that just are beautiful to watch but aren't relatable to people in the real world. And so when you have these, it's not, he's a, I'm going to say a flawed hero, but not flawed in that like he does bad or wrong things. He's flawed in that he's human, even though he's Centauri.

[10:17] I think that's a really powerful thing to have. Well, Jeff, I think it's time. I do too. Let's watch the evolution of Veer in this one. If you're joining us for the very first time, welcome. We're glad you're here. Every episode is somebody's first. We're super excited you chose this one. We're going to pull up the episode right here, right now, and watch it with you. During the watch, we'll comment on things that happen, thoughts that we have, any messages that we dig up. and we're going to edit that up for the YouTube release like kind of a reaction video sort of thing. On our Patreon page, we have the full and unedited version, which you can get at patreon.com slash bad nerds. And if you're hanging out with us on YouTube or any of that, that's how you do that. But if you're on an audio podcasting platform, you can hear the audio of that YouTube cut up that we have because we'll also have lots of conversations and we don't want you guys to miss that. And then on the backside we'll have all of those post-show conversations and the ranking and all that kind of stuff, because we want you guys to be a part of this too. So with that, Jeff, let's go watch an episode. Let's do it. Accessing file.

[11:32] By the end of this day, either Katarja is dead or Centauri Prime will be destroyed. I feel like I often forget the amount of influence that House Malari has in Centauri culture. These moments are the ones where it's like, yeah, he's a big deal. Yeah. Honestly, tracking, I wonder how much thought goes into Veer's hair each episode. Because it changes a lot. Episode to episode. Right, right. Like, are they just, hey, here, take, this is your wig for today. Or is there some, no, let's give them a bigger head fan. Let's give them one that's a little more thin. Let's give them one that's a little more thick. Let's give them a smaller one. When you consider that six months ago, half of them were fighting each other, it's... It's amazing. That is amazing. And you brought them together. Because humans build communities. Mm-hmm. I was downstairs. I was playing with my dolls. I know. It's hard to believe, but even I played with dolls once upon a time. They're action figures. Anyway, she came downstairs and she just watched me play. She had the strangest look on her face, like she was trying to burn that moment into her mind so she would never, ever forget it. I want you to promise me that I will be there with the fleet at the end. No matter what happens. You'll be there.

[12:58] Or you'll be dead. Why do you want me to leave? Both? As soon as possible. Lorien's already been notified. Susan? I don't think I... Ever told you what a good friend you've been. And how proud I am of you. But before you left, I... I just thought you should know. Thank you. That was very thoughtful. Good night, Captain. Good night, Commander. So there's an activation warning for people. We're going to talk about suicide for a quick minute. Just a little lesson, a message in that story, that the people in your life who are ready to die from suicide aren't the ones that are mopey and sad all of the time. Sometimes they are the happiest ones. They are the ones that seem to have found a level of peace. Please don't assume everything is okay with someone just because it looks that way.

[14:00] All right. New Trek haters out there who are like, this new Star Trek is just dumb and it doesn't take itself seriously. That Jester guy lifted from at least one episode of Star Trek from every single series that it's had. It's been ridiculous the whole time. Pretty soon flotter is going to come rolling through my eye offended him, the lighting's so powerful on him right now just every contour of his face you can see the cuts that were invisible to me before leave him to us, there is mirth in his eyes right here it's just like just put me in chains bro i got this.

[14:55] Humor you know here's the thing about people like cartagia he can't be in power and do what he does except for the people around him who support him right and prop him up and like i doubt very seriously that cartagia himself was the one who did whatever that killed that jester i agree it It was one of these two guys behind him or something of that nature. There's always got to be people around that are making it happen, making the crazy happen.

[15:21] On at least some level, they not only agree with it, they support it, they encourage it, they back it up, and they think it's the good and right thing to do. Otherwise, it can't happen. We talk about this a lot in Intersections in Real Time on our first time watch and how it's a – what's more evil, the figurehead at the top or the people just showing up every day and executing and enabling their whims? Or what about the people in the middle? Like there's the figurehead at the top, but then there's the number two man, the three man, the four man, the five man who are feeding the number one man. In fact, I would dare say the man at the top, the figurehead, really is nothing more than the figurehead. They're not the ones actually doing it. Yeah, it's the people around. They're the public face of it. And quite often that person is working off of information that is provided to them by those people, the number two, three, four, five, six guy. And that information is curated through those people to lead the figurehead to believe one thing or another. So sometimes you almost even wonder if the figurehead doesn't, you know, well, everybody supports me. How do you know? Well, we have all these polls. What polls? Well, the ones that they gave me.

[16:27] Look at all these dossiers I have. They tell me everything. So there's pictures. There's video. I've got everything. I've got all the evidence and proof. And, you know, well, they tell me this is what it is. I don't really know for sure, but they tell me. Again, that's – but the thing about that is that is also true of the good governments as well. Yeah, frankly, you know, it really is. So they're only good because of the people around them because of the people around. It's interesting because single person will very easily say, oh, Cartagia is evil. He's he's horrible. And like you said, it's the people around him enabling all of that. Like, like when he stops and stares at the jester and whatever, if everybody's just like, bro, chill out, knock it off. All of a sudden he doesn't have anything. Right. But the real thing they're fighting are, again, the cultural norms. He's the emperor.

[17:19] I can't say no to the emperor. Like, I know what he's saying isn't, this isn't a good thing to do, but it's the emperor, you know? And I think for, it's very easy to say, all we have to do to stop true evil and leadership is to stop doing what they say. But the thing is, those two guys back there don't think what he's doing is evil. Or. At least not consciously. Or, as Paul points out, they also understand that if they refuse, they will instantly be killed and so will probably their family. Yeah, because there's somebody else who's not going to see it the way they see it. So they just kind of go along to get along, I guess. And do horrible things to do it. Also notable when he does die and how no one's like, we must avenge him. There's like, oh, thank God. You, everyone knows that you are incapable of doing anything really dangerous or subversive. That's good. I don't know about incapable. They always overwrap these things. I like that Veer got a little offended by that. You know, if I put my mind to it, I mean... I'm kind of a bad boy. I suppose. I mean, it's just that once I did take a... Veer, take the compliment for what it is. Very nice.

[18:39] Good workmanship. Did they give you any instructions? Yes. The dose of neurotoxins is very small. Ah, poison. It's the undetectable. Poison, poison. Because it is so small, it has to be delivered directly into the target. You couldn't just put it in his food. It wouldn't work. It wouldn't get past his tasters anyway. Go on. You must place it right here, between his heart. And then press that button. The toxin will paralyze his neural system, which will cause his heart to stop. And then when you pull it out, an organic sealant will cover up the wound. And you won't be able to see it unless you knew what you were looking for. And we hope that they won't be. How fast does the poison work? Very quickly. He said almost instantaneously. Almost? How fast is almost? time enough for him to stagger back into the main you think it's interesting that Rando is in red or maybe just enough time for him to say Lando kill, And then he won't even get that out. I mean, he'll just maybe go, Lon!

[19:53] And then he'll just be totally delirious and say everything backwards and say, Kill Londo! Oh, not even... I was just making a play on the... Well, it's time. We're going to parade Shikar before the leaders of some local towns to encourage cooperation, and we must be there.

[20:22] Yeah and he says in the chat joking in the forest of oh god we're doing this, it's a lot easier to use humor than to like this is the thing.

[20:49] They should have a big old narn behind him yelling shame shame ringing a bell, they probably could get somebody to do that jakar falls for the first time must not see you are afraid so jms says uh and asked in reference to the question of was jacar's thing here a reference to jesus on the cross remember i just want to remind you of of his words from a couple weeks ago of sometimes he's the last one to pick up on things he goes i think you could make the argument that there's some symbolism in there from christian literature, but that kind of scene takes place in other belief systems as well and historically that sort of torture was used in many places including the roman empire in general it's not wrong not wrong, but, but that's what it's going to harness, like hard, uh, harken back to, I was trying to say harness. That's not the right word. Harken back to is, yeah, you can make that argument for all the other stuff, but the average person is going to look at that and be like, I mean, who, who didn't watch the matrix three and be like, oh, I see what they're doing.

[22:01] How do you please? You cannot break those chains. They are made of solid corilium. So JMS was asked, did Londo's men weaken those chains after all? Or was Jakar just really determined? JMS's response? That was one really determined Narn. Yeah. He hulked out, man. No! No!

[22:32] Oh, to be a guard, you understand? Even Veer can't believe he just did it. The implant has collapsed. Dude, look at Stephen first. Look at that. He's like vomiting and holding it back. He's broke. Where you paused it here is perfect. Like, just look at his face. So here's the thing. The way that really reads to me is Veer picked the pin up and was holding it, and Cartagena just turned around and bumped into him.

[23:00] Not veer picked it up and did the deed i agree that's the way it reads to me however jms says and this is this is quite famous i'm pretty sure we covered this our first time around but let's do it officially for this one writing 405 this one the long night there's something that one particular character was supposed to do in the script that had been the plan all along that was my intent even as near as page one from where it was going to happen i'm assuming that's page one of the gathering okay right like this was from this was part of the plan right and specifically he's clearly talking about londo killing the emperor the plan was londo to kill the emperor and he says but then just as i got to that scene while writing it another character stepped up and said, no, let me do it. I was kind of flummoxed. You, you're the last person anyone would think to do this. The character nodded and said, exactly. The symmetry was perfect. The impact would be greater. So that's who did it.

[24:10] And that's why Veer is the guy who was just happening to hold it when he turned around and bumped into him or Veer did the deed. I'll leave that up to your determination. But regardless, now, Jeff, have you ever – I don't know if you've ever written any kind of fiction or anything like that. But it is a very real thing I have where the characters really come to life and they take you as a writer in surprising places. I've had that with acting. This is my character on a long-running thing. And, hey, we're going to do this and this. No, it's not. He wouldn't do that. He'd do it like this. Dylan makes a point in the council chambers. It's kind of a yes and where, yeah, he might have just picked it up and he bumped into it. And Veer had to push the button. Oh, I forgot about pushing. It wasn't just the thing went in. He had to actually push the button too. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Good call. Good call. Good call. Veer's all about it. Remember when Veer was like, I changed my mind. Let's kill him. Yeah. Done. I personally supervise the royal physician. There is nothing to be done. Everyone's like, oh, so sad. Do you see me being sad?

[25:18] The emperor believed in heeding the wisdom of the gods we are yours to command okay prime minister, this still bothers me the fact he gets named prime minister and he just goes back to babylon five to abdicate his responsibility and his role as prime minister yeah when they come in with just enough firepower i went back and i told joe that he got the time machine he told me to suck it sounds like it sounds like one big assault well in the intro tells me there are rules of engagement between the two sides. Right there, he's like, I'm going to kill him one day. Right. But what are the rules? I figured it always worked for you, Londo. Yeah. Look, let me... I learned it by watching you. How much more before I can look in the mirror? Yeah. Don't you understand it? I've never done anything like this before. I close my eyes and I always see his face. He may have saved the people, but at his own expense. Maybe even one that could actually love someone like me. I never wanted to be here. You're probably surprised as Londo that he's never killed before. I never wanted to know the things that I know or the Duke. But you still have your heart. And your heart is a good one. You would not be in such great pain otherwise. It means there is still hope for you. Yeah.

[26:40] That you're feeling this, Veer, means there's still hope that to the Centauri. The fact that Londo can see that, the fact that Londo knows that, shows that despite everything he's done, that despite his own, as you just said, lost his innocence a long time ago, Londo himself still has a heart. And Londo himself, therefore, still has hope. There's this great implication in this scene where, hey, listen, Veer, you're innocent. I lost my innocence a long time ago, So I'm going to go do all the dirty stuff and I'm just going to keep doing whatever. But you don't have to go this route. You can just do whatever. But the thing is, Londo doesn't have to keep going that route. Londo does. He's he's not beholden to all of that. He can stop and turn around. And frankly, there's a piece of like something I'm actively watching for right now is at what point does Londo really realize? He can come back from where he's been, you know, he doesn't just sign himself off as a lost cause. He can still make good stuff happen. Um, he's still gonna have consequences and all that sort of stuff, you know, but where is the hope for Londo in this? As he's spilling hope into Veer right now of, yeah, Hey, look, you're going to see that for a long time and all of this is going to happen, but you're still a good person kind of means the same thing for him.

[28:07] It's an important moment for Londo. In fact, I would say Londo is talking a little bit more to himself right now than he really is DeVere. I think that one of the first things we learned about Londo was there's a version of himself that he wished he could still be. He's in bed with Adira, and he's like, I am just an old Republican.

[28:30] But he wants to learn all the different things, and we've seen that struggle in him. I really appreciate him being able to name here that he saw that in Veer. And essentially bullied him because of it, you know, and wasn't great. But to your point, like fear has become the mirror in which he can now see that part of him. Like it's not just in his head. It's there. So I think like, I think that his turning point, Londo's turning point is the very long night of Londo Malari. Sure it is. But I think that this is a pivotal, huge step towards. There are steps along the way. It doesn't all just happen in very long night of Londo Malari. There are certainly steps along the way. And here's the thing, and this is the other point. Paul points this out in our council chamber chat over here. On Londo's part, if Veer can come back for this, maybe I can too. Gives Londo hope to see Veer recover from this. Exactly. Londo needs Veer to recover from this. I still need you, Veer. It took a lot for him to say that. There's much work to be done back home if we are to save Centauri Prime. Him staring at those fireworks makes me think like what he's got to be feeling right now. They're celebrating fireworks in a party because he's carrying what he's carrying.

[29:48] There's no celebration for him. What was it all for, I wonder? What was any of what for? I'm going to say in this case, the whole war, the slaughter of the Narn. The bombing of Narn. Why did we do it? Why did we go there? That is a pivotal moment for future Emperor Veer. That Veer standing in that window right there is a defining moment that will guide him for how he deals with international or intergalactic affairs. In his time as emperor of the Centauri. Yeah. There's a, Ben in the Council Chambers chat brings up the Legions of Fire trilogy, the Drak and Centauri stuff and what Veer goes through in that. But like, yeah, I think just that defining, and it shines through in those stories. He did some horrible, hard things, but he knew what they were for, right? Like he would be able to answer this question. Whereas with this, this is just so much, so much waste. We need them to believe it's real Real enough to fight for Real enough to.

[30:52] Notice how silent it is right now There's no music There's no sound effects, So JMS said something about that Had he answered yes he is It wouldn't have changed Sheridan's call here It just would have alerted him If he needed to notify somebody It wasn't a.

[31:14] Hey, I'm not going to ask you to do this if you're married. Just because you're single, you can go. This was, is there somebody I need to notify? Yeah, he's just figuring out next steps. Erickson's such a hero in this. I mean, like, my God. Your ship has the only copy of this. Erickson, billions of lives are counting on this. Dude, the determination of Erickson immediately. Is anything that the warrior crew need? Anyone you want us to hold of? We live for the one, we die for the one. I find the placement of the scene is interesting. Now, this isn't a fully formed thought. I'm just going to kind of talk through it. but we just watched veer and veer carrying now the weight of his actions and it's new for him we now just watch sheridan and the weight that a leader specifically a military leader faces every day they send people knowingly to their deaths and hear the way they constructed it one-on-one personal him calling him by his name like you're to your point no sounds no soundtrack no nothing, i think it was a really good demonstration of this is new to me and i'm scared and i don't know what to do with it and i've been doing this for a really long time and i know how to do it and the commonality between the two of them it's super hard and it sucks sheridan is taking no joy, in this whatsoever and i think it kind of bounces back to what londo was saying like the pain the hurt never goes away i feel like this placement was very intentional.

[32:41] And look at Sheridan right now, just like, and here he doesn't get to go take a drink onto the next, you know, what's also really kind of neat about this scene. That is a human on board a Mumbari ship. Who's going off to sacrifice himself, themselves for everybody here. You talk about the look on Sheridan's face, look on Dillon's face, look on everybody else's face. It wasn't a, well, that's a human. Cool. They were all in that moment. Yeah. They were all there together. And talking about Sheridan being willing to sacrifice the ship, JMS says that he thinks it shows the league that he, Sheridan, was willing to sacrifice his own people, that he means business. And is prepared to go all the way for this. And so they better damned well as well. I'm very much of the mindset as a leader in the things that I get to lead. I'm not going to ask anybody to do something that I won't do myself. I'm also not going to ask somebody, to do something that I can't do myself. If I can do it, I'm just going to go do it. I don't, if, if I can go set up the chairs, I'm just going to go set up the chairs. I don't need to have somebody else come do it because I'm a leader and I don't need to go do that. You know what I mean? I'm going to be the guy who goes and does all those things. If I'm, if I'm leading that charge, you know what I mean? Um, I'm going to take the wind of that. I'm going to, I'm going to be in front of that. That's kind of shared in here. Hey, somebody has got to go out there and do it. okay, I'm going to make it one of my guys. I'm going to show everybody else that I mean business.

[34:10] That is a piss poor reason to send one of your people off to die. Just to show other people that you mean business. Yeah. Yeah. I can see that. Right. Thankfully, I don't think Sheridan is, that's the reason Sheridan is sending them off to die. I think having that as an added benefit, we can accept that. The reason these guys are going is because they're the most, they're that's that's the most believable way to get the shadows to where they need to be, and if it has this other effect then cool so be it i just i don't know i ever since i've been sitting with what jms said here it just shows it's kind of like banana i mean of like no you you don't you don't send somebody to sacrifice themselves just to show other people you mean business yeah that's no well that's dumb you are tired you're hurt you're not seeing this as we do That's not too long, is it? I see, Sharon. I see better than you can imagine. Look at...

[35:06] Two things on this. One, look at just his makeup. He looks dehydrated. Yeah. There's wrinkles and everything, especially compared to the others who were plump. He looks gaunt. Yeah. Incredible makeup job. Also, the restraint that Jakar shows with this Yehu in front of him is almost as powerful as he does when he's in the little prayer circle and reading from the Book of Jakar. And Guy's like, what do you know? But it's the same thing here. What did you sacrifice? The guy without an eye. Like, they're literally like, hey, Guy. We need to redress our wounds, help our people, rebuild our city. What a perspective he has. Let me show you this episode called Midnight on the Firing Line, where Delenn addresses exactly this. Oh. We suffered and died during their occupation. You're about to get an ouchy pouchy, dude. What have you endured? What have you endured? This is incredible. I love this. He's just like, you're not even worth the explanation, dude.

[36:13] And you know, sometimes laughter is the only right response. Shadow vessel still coming after us. I love that he's keyed into this. Like, he made the choice, he's going to carry it. And lends to your point of, he's not doing this just to show, I'll give my guys. One equal temper of heroic hearts, made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek. That's more than just a line. And not to yield. Oh, man. What a lead-in to the next episode. Just those ships against the... Normally this goes to black, right, with the credits on top. They're just... Dude, I'm already just like, go! Are we just pressing play on the next episode? God, yes. Because we could. It's only... What time? We could. We could. We're a lot of times not even getting started until about now. Exactly. you know i i'm gonna i'm gonna do a thing that i know is uh not super popular but i'm gonna compare babylon 5 to deep space 9 and i'm gonna say that send your emails to jeff at babylon 5 for the second time dot edu.com gf why.

[37:31] But no, like, both of these shows did a thing, and we saw it here with Sinclair, that I think if they did it better than most shows, Battlestar Galactica did an okay job with this also, but humanized the loss in war, right? So especially historically, we study a war, we lost 10,000 casualties.

[37:52] 30,000 deaths, just these massive numbers that are meaningless to us. In Deep Space Nine, he reads out loud the casualty list that he gets all the time. He names them and does it. Here, we have Sheridan in solitude, in the dark with Delenn, watching him, listening to the person he sent to his death die. A person that we know, his name is Erickson. We know things about him. I think it's so important for any sort of media art thing that we can consume for those of us who have not experienced war yet on our own front door or whatever because i know there are people listening there are people here now who have been in situations you know that uh where this is very real to them but for me i was even i was even in the military and to me it's like oh yeah 683 people died okay yeah 10,042 it's just they're just numbers, but those numbers, all of them are people. And those people have moms and dads and brothers and sisters and wives and husbands and kids and entire lives around them. Yeah. Erickson wasn't married.

[39:02] I bet he was in a fantasy football league with some really good friends, right? Who are going to be like, dude, you were first draft pick this time. Cause you sucked last year. Like where are you at? He's going to defend the toilet bowl champion. Exactly. You know, but I just, I love, I love that about both of these series and how they, they made the horrifying, meaningless, worthless loss of war palpable. How about you? Do you have anything else out of this one? JMS has a final line. I don't know that I agree with him here. Okay. I'm quite happy with this episode. It's fun. Okay. I don't know that fun is the word I would use to describe this episode. I'm trying really hard, really hard right now to like where the fun was.

[39:46] Um, yeah, I've been fun to produce there, right. There's some, I mean, there's some cool stuff in that episode for sure. It might've been fun to act. Yeah. Right. Like a challenge. It's the storytelling and it is, is remarkable and impeccable. Yeah. I mean, what a journey we just went on. We murdered Cartagia. Actually, I guess we assassinated him. Yeah. When you're have a title, it's an assassination, not a murder. Yeah. So we assassinated Cartagia. We drew the shadows into the war. We sacrificed our people and we literally are now on the precipice of heading into the war all in one episode. But the Centauri off Narn. This is one of those things like he just packed 15 pounds worth of manure into a 10 pound bag. Yep. That's just phenomenal.

[40:35] It's excellent storytelling. And I would dare say this episode could not have done what it did had it not been for the last two episodes, which found themselves ranked at the bottom of the ranking so far. It stood on their shoulders. The sacrifice of the last two episodes came to fruition here in this one. Well, the foundation is usually at the bottom. So that is that is such a philosophically astute statement there, Jeff. Right. They could just be written off, but it actually is incredibly smart. Thank you. Because there is a lot to that. There is a lot to that. I just want to press play on the next episode. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I just want to press. And I think, and I think what it did so geniusly was like so much happened and it was happening. And I wasn't at all thinking about Corianna six or the next episode. I was in this moment and then on a dime, it turned us around and it's, and it was really that graphic at the end. I don't, I don't remember this from the first time, but this, the episodes always end with a fade to black. Douglas Netter comes up on the thing. There was no fade to black, right? They just showed all those ships heading out. And I had goosebumps. I'm like, let's go. Let's go. All about it.

[41:48] So with that in mind, Brent, I want to move forward in our episode so we can get to the place that we want to be next. And that is ranking this episode in the objectively correct listing, ranking of all these episodes. Our current top four, we're going to round out the top five today. And number four, falling toward apotheosis, which we watched last week. And the summoning in number three number two the hour of the wolf and in the number one spot for now whatever happened to mr garibaldi brent where does the long night go jeff, You got every single one of those numbers wrong. Did I? Yes. Because falling towards apotheosis is number five. Summoning is number four. Hour of the Wolf is number three. Whatever happened to Mr. Garbaldi is number two. Because this is the number one episode so far of the season. By a long shot. Yes. And it stands on the shoulders of the four previous, of the 70 previous episodes. Yeah. Did I do my math on that really quickly? Sure. Correctly? Is that right? Darn close. 22 episodes, three episodes, that's 66 and then four episodes, 70 episodes. Nice job. Right? Look at the fast bro. Man, the calculator can't go that fast. Nope. Superhuman. Mentat level stuff right there.

[43:03] But yeah, no, this is the top episode. It will be replaced next week. If it's not, I will be shocked. I will eat my hat. If we come out of next week's episode being like, why did we think that episode was so great? It was kind of meh. I will quit this show frankly I'm done, I agree and Brett that is what we're going to do next week we're going to watch Into the Fire I think you just answered the question skip over the whole thing we thought it was great we thought it was maybe the best hour of television ever produced I have said that, actually I've said that there's been two episodes of Babylon 5 I've said that about this might be the best episode of television I've ever seen in my life, this was this was the one that made me retract my earlier one because it's so incredible it's so good i want to know whatever if anybody else agrees this is the best hour of television so make sure you watch our episode on exactly this uh it's gonna be your next week make sure you're subscribed make sure you've rated commented done that stuff check out our patreon there's a ton of cool stuff on that as well um please share the show especially now as we're heading into this incredible episode we want you to be there with us as we head in to the fire, I'm Jeff Akin. This is Brent Allen. And with that, we'll- Hey, Jeff. Yes, what's up? Hit the button. We're getting out of here now. Yeah, yes. I mean, what other reason would we not do that? Let's go. We're going into the fire now. Now.

[44:31] I mean, we're not some deep space franchise. This station is about something.