The Illusion of Truth | For the Second Time

[0:00] You can only watch it for the first time once. It'll be interesting to see what we catch and what we don't. This is our only first time. We know that it's a serialized show. Can you ever play the video game Mass Effect? Okay, Tolkien. Chill out. Some little breadcrumbs. Jean-Bré-Dé Chuckle Nugget. This is where Babylon 5 is becoming Babylon 5. We have the most incredible community out there. Feels like... I was right. Let's try and put the pieces together. I was right. I'm the king, baby. What? Are you kidding me? Here I go back to Doom, as I often do. We're officially into it, Jeff. 100% so good. It was so good. Completely accurate. That was great. I love that. I can keep watching the show. I love it so much.

[0:44] The year is 2026. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5. for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And my name is Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters. Then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed. So now he and I are watching this incredible series for the second time because Babylon 5 is a series that you get to watch for the first time twice. Choice that's right and for the second time around jeff and i are looking for the messages that are contained within now you may have noticed that i said for the second time around that is because jeff and i have been through this entire series once for ourselves uh we've been through it we know everything that happens right like every little detail we've seen the spinoff shows we've read novels well jeff has read novels uh we've watched videos we've got all that and all of that is fair game for jeff and i to talk about so if you have never been through this incredible series for the first time for yourself we beg you stop this is your one and only spoiler warning because jeff and i will talk about all of it you should go back and listen to our first one that was completely spoiler free trust us it actually matters go back and do that and then when you're done with that come catch us up on the second watch because as jeff said this is a show where you do get to watch it for the first time, twice. Why are you still here? Go, go.

[2:12] This week, Brent, we're watching the illusion of truth for the second time. When we watched it the first time, we played a game where we would predict what each episode was going to be about based on the title alone. What did you predict this one was going to be about? I said that this one really had to get back to Sheridan and Dylan and their story because we didn't really have anything about that in the last one. The last time we really We saw them. They were flying on that little ship going, it's all time. It's all time now down here. So we had that. And then also this would probably be a lot about the propaganda that President Clark is spreading back on earth about Babylon 5. How about you? I thought this was going to be a Garibaldi episode, like focusing on his programming.

[2:56] He quit, right? He put in his resignation. And so I thought we'd see him kind of kicking off his business and all that kind of stuff. But he was going to be like he would be faced with things that pre-programming garibaldi was into and now he's not into like the dissonance between old and new garibaldi would come up and so like his illusion of truth would come up based on the cognitive dissonance in his day-to-day life very interesting jeff yeah those were our predictions they were why don't we take a look and see what we actually thought about this episode the first time around. Let's do that. Previously on Babylon 5 for the first time. The illusion of truth. The opening scene with Zach, total Clint Eastwood impression. Like, don't say that until you know what I was shooting at, boy.

[3:45] Then he mugs so big for the cameras. God, he's awesome. It was clear to me this was going to be a hack job. And frankly, I'm embarrassed that Sheridan felt right. I think this is a really important chapter. I think it was done powerfully. It was horrifying, the things that are going on there. When the actor guy clearly been tortured and was giving his forced confession. They just put that on the newscast because people are used to seeing it. I can't help but think about the ordinary, everyday, average citizen back on Earth. Well, if they know anything, it's from ISN. This is the only way that they can know anything. But the people back on Earth aren't going to know that. I mean, unless they really can wake up and be like, hey, this is not okay. I don't know if you've been watching this show or not, Brett. It's Babylon 5. Yeah, people don't wake up in this show and see things. If you play the end game out, part of it is getting Sheridan arrested and bringing him back. Now, if Sheridan's a hero and they bring him in and they want to send him to one of those camps that the director dude was at. No, you can't. He's a hero. But if you start seeding that, no, he has this disease, it's wrong. We're helping.

[4:55] Pity him we need to bring him back and make him whole again then they'll put him in those horrible camps and people will cheer and they'll be so thankful for the benevolence of the earth government and part of my prediction for this whole fourth season is that babylon 5 would become the focal point of some alliance maybe they bring earth into this alliance sheridan becomes the president of earth if babylon 5 becomes a nation he could become the president get the corkboard back out baby it's been put away for a while babylon 5 is going to form some sort of an alliance with the mars resistance maybe we'll see a couple of other pieces like there's proximate 3 and i think we're gonna have this big earth babylon 5 conflict it's the scourging of the shire it's going to wind up with clark gone it'll be interesting when we get through whatever this arc is that they're building to come back to this episode and analyze that that 15 minutes of a newscast and see what all got worked in and from that yeah like stuff that we just gloss over right now in this moment yeah for real nailed it totally maybe they're gonna do something with this mars thing, maybe. You know, honestly, though, it's not that hard to figure out.

[6:18] You've read literature. We know at this point we're, I don't want to say ripping off Tolkien, but that's just kind of where we are. This is where we are in the story. This is the storytelling, and this is.

[6:31] I remember a lot, a lot of times during the first watch, we talked about the idea that I, and I like this about JMS is he doesn't necessarily subvert expectations, right? He sets it up, he plays with it, and then he delivers. And that is satisfying. And the way people subvert expectations these days is so common that it's not subverted. Like what subverts expectations is that you actually meet the expectations that you set up people for. Yeah. It's pretty exhausting. Yeah, and it's great when it happens. It's like, that's how it needed to happen. And so, yeah. I also said it'll be neat to come back, and here we are back. Look at that. And really analyze those last 15 minutes. See what happens. I think a thing you said, I've been really focused. We had a couple things in the JMS Speak stuff that we share about him being like, quit trying to say that I'm doing this thing or that this is from this. Like I'm writing my own thing, but yes, this is so Tolkien-esque. It's, it's a little overwhelming, but I think what you just said kind of just prompted this thought I want to share. Tolkien, one of the things like that was really remarkable about him was he established the storytelling structure for, I was going to say high fantasy, but it's like high concept.

[7:56] Media, you know, for him, it was books here. And so I think it's just that JMS is following that structure in a way where it just, it can't not feel Tolkien-esque. You want to see if it's going to be like that this time? I do, but I do want to say this going into it, okay? Because the biggest thing I remember coming out of this episode is the question in my mind of whether or not the newscaster guy actually wasn't working for Sheridan. Not working for him, but kind of working on behalf. Like, he's actually a good guy.

[8:31] Kind of like a – like, he's on the good side, but he's, like, double agenting it. Like being inside. And so like, he's got to keep up certain pretenses, you know what I mean? But, but he, in doing that, he's going to insert just enough doubt that actually gives Sheridan some credibility, even though he's got it as like a railroad job, which I love that idea. I don't know that we ever got a definitive answer on how that worked, but I'm interested to watch this episode and see if that jumps out again. So in a rare clickbait moment, Brent, I have an answer to that question, a definitive answer to that question. And we'll get to that at the end of this episode that we're going to start right now. What do you say? Let's do it. Awesome. We're going to bring the episode up right now. It's what's going to happen. We're going to watch through the whole thing. We're going to talk about it while it's happening.

[9:27] We're going to edit it up on YouTube. So it's like a reaction video. The unedited version, The full thing is available on our Patreon page at patreon.com slash bad nerds. And if you're listening to this on an audio podcasting app, just sit tight. We're going to have the entire audio from that watch. So one, you can kind of know what we're talking about when we're talking about it, because Jeff and I are going to have lots of conversations during the middle of the episode. But then we'll have all the stuff on the backside. So sit back and enjoy. Jeff, let's go watch an episode. Let's do it. Accessing file.

[10:05] He's got his action figures. It'd be funny if he was playing with a Star Trek ship. You told me about your dad. He's a smart guy. He can take care of himself. Being a former diplomat, he's too visible to just disappear. Yeah, maybe. Also, John's just feeling upset right now. That's his dad and his mom. Maybe just give him some space. The more I'm glad that we picked him to take over security when Garibaldi left. We haven't had a major incident yet. Yet. Great cut. everybody back that's private property we've got rights here what you're gonna have is my foot 16 inches up your butt if you don't get the hell out of my 16 inches it's very specific good shot chief well don't say that until you know what i was aiming at yeah see yeah, i don't know that we've had a guest star like this since oh i don't know season one.

[11:02] A little lk ish so a bit so a definitive answer you say all right so so don't tell me so you know the answer as we sit here right now you know the answer don't tell me i want to see what i see in this episode and then tell me at the end of the episode interesting and i and i gotta tell we've got our council chambers here joining us as they do for all of our live recordings and And you guys can put whatever you want in the chat. I'm not going to believe anything you say. Like, I love you guys. I'm not going to, you can, you can definitively tell me something until Jeff says, this is what JMS said, or I see with my own eyes. I'm going to assume this is just your conjecture. It's good. Your take on it. One of the things, uh, you know, we do pull stuff from the internet and other sources that came from the mouth of the maker himself. Yes. The great maker to you, Mr. Aiken. Well, All the makers are just makers to me. And they leave their mark. Ah, you're waxing poetically there, Jeff.

[12:06] One of the things that he said about this one, two things that I think are good to know going into it. He says this episode is one that will be discussed a lot, but not rewatched very much because it is very hard to watch, especially when you know it's coming. It tends to really upset people. This is there have been college and university professors who have used this in journalism classes.

[12:30] Oh, for people. And then part of that is that real journalism is hard to watch, which is the second thing where he says, this is going to hit a little close to home. You have to remember that I came out of journalism. That's where I cut my teeth as a writer working for newspapers and magazines. There's a little autobiographical tint to this whole thing for him. Not in Dan Randall, I'm sure, but the story overall. I like that there's a helicopter pad outside of the station you never know why is there a helicopter pad outside of the station something far worse than the shadows lawyers bureaucrats reporters i like the fact that jms is saying that about himself captain sharon and dan randall is in news thank goodness someone reasonable to talk to thank you he's such a sweet commander sharon and dan randall is in news that is i'm sorry it's ridiculous that is a mouthful of a line that is hard to get out and make it sound natural god bless this man what really makes it sound natural is how he puts his voice right back here in his throat to give it that little bit of authority that he doesn't actually have i'd remind you that we are short on supplies here.

[13:39] We can't afford to take perfectly good clothing and throw it out into space. Always take the jacket off first. I told you that before.

[13:47] Sorry, she meant to say stripped naked and throw it out of their life. Okay, look, here's the thing. All right, real talk. Real talk about something fictional. Not Bruce and Claudia. Is that a bit that John and Susan have practiced in the office before? Have they gone through that or were they just going off the cuff in that moment? I'm going to say they went off the cuff and then they've used it many times since. Because the way she like, yes, sir, like ducks her head and she's all sheepish about it. But she knows exactly where he's going with it in that moment. We have an open door policy and an open airlock policy.

[14:28] Everybody's got an agenda, whether they admit it or not. But you try not to let it get in the way of the truth. This is exactly what I'm talking about with him. He works for a company. Listen, folks, there's no such thing as an unbiased media person out there, right? There's no such thing as an unbiased news agency out there. News agencies are private businesses. They're in business to make money. Those news agencies are owned by people with a perspective, people with an agenda. That's why you have different types of news agencies out there. This is how those and how have we gotten so many news agencies? Because somebody is like, Hey, I need you to publish this story of mine, Ben Franklin. And Ben goes, yeah, I don't really believe that. So no, I'm not going to publish it. Well, fine. I'm going to go start my own newspaper as a printer. And now you have to, that's how that happens. And they each have their own perspective. They each have their own.

[15:25] Their own side. So what he's saying here is a hundred percent true. And knowing that it's coming from JMS, from a journalist background is great. But what's he say? But hopefully you don't let it get in the way of the truth. So he's working for a company that has an agenda. He fully admits it, but me, I'm going to try not to let that get in the way of the truth. I've got a job I got to do, but I'm going to see what I truly believe. And I'm going to like, to me so far, it's tracking. It's also probably a line they feed them in journalism school. We are here to tell the truth. Yeah. We're a version of the truth. Yeah. We're here to be on by it. It's when I worked in sports media, the number of people who are like, yeah, I'm a media member. I'm not allowed to be a fan.

[16:07] Right. And then I'd sit in the press box and watch people like fist bump under the, under the table and stuff like that. Like, dude, you're a fan just because you're a fan doesn't mean you can let it, it doesn't mean it has to get in the way of your professionalism. I see to run on this even more. Let's say it is unbiased. Let's just say we have someone objectively reporting the truth. This happened and this happened and this happened. Like you said, they're here to make money. It's about clicks. It's about subscriptions. It's about The objective truth just spelled out, no one is clicking on that. It's boring. We have to sensationalize. Otherwise, people aren't going to look at it. This judge handed down this shocking ruling. Oh my God, click here to find out more, as opposed to the person was found not guilty in this trial. Which one are you clicking on? And so I guess where I kind of land here too, it's not necessarily the journalists or even the news companies that are the problem here. It's the foundation of what we're all in. It's not about informing people. It's about making money. As a business, as an independent business.

[17:10] You know, now if it's a value of your company to be unbiased and you feel like you can make money in that process, then more power to you. Yeah, cool. But not every news agency is like that. And not all news is for that. But Jeff, if I may, there's another piece of me that's like, it's really not the responsibility of the news agency to come at it from that perspective. It's really upon you and me and you out there and our counselors. It's upon us as individuals to be able to watch the news with a critical eye and be like, hey, I know you're coming at it from this perspective. Let me hear what you have to say. Because I'm a thinking human being, I can also go, hey, you over there, what's your perspective? You should verify ideas and stories from more than one new source because truth is a three-edged sword. Oh, boom! Boom! Let's watch some more episodes. That's exactly why I fought to get this assignment. Yeah. So you could tell the whole truth? No.

[18:07] Not the whole truth. Just as much as I can without getting into trouble. But even a little truth is better than none. This is what I'm saying. Good journalist. Working with what you can in the system that exists. We have to go back with the story. We can try to get your side of things across to the viewers. We'll have to be careful. If you don't, we'll do the story anyway, and there'll be nobody to represent your point of view. Now, is that really what you want? I'll tell you what I want, what I really, really want.

[18:37] If you want to be just, it's a compelling argument. I mean, in this, he did it. I mean, whether he's legitimately telling the truth or not, it's a compelling argument to offer them in this, in that time. And like, I'm, I'm noticing people over in the chat are like, he's lying, he's lying, he's lying. And I'm sitting here going, okay, you see it that way.

[18:57] I'm not convinced that he is. Now, JMS may in his, may in his thing be like, yeah, he's absolutely lying here, but I'm not convinced as a viewer listening to this. I'm sitting in sheridan spot i kind of believe him i feel like he's telling him he's like look i'm gonna do this and he's like and if you don't cooperate then there's really nothing i can do so help me out help me help you so it's like you said in the recap when we watch the newscast let's look for that truth that he slips in that's what i want to see when we were evacuated from the iridian column vibes of ergo right now the point is aside from the centauri all of the other maker religions are monotheistic they don't allow the keeping of alien gods i would be very interested jeff to know about the maker religions that are out there in this universe that hook up with uh brother theo yeah that's the spinoff that's the episode arc we should have somewhere they don't allow for the keeping of alien gods oh what if all the maker stuff was vorlon people we're not you can't get the alien you can't do the shadow like we know you've got to do just your yeah oh and how does that work now that the vorlons are gone i want to point i think that andy said in our council chambers chat that i think is fantastic little thematic thing here we just watched dan randall give us a version of peddling a truth and here this trader is trying to sell garibaldi a truth come on okay john hey michael how you doing how are things good to see you.

[20:24] Yeah, it's not hard. Sheridan is complicit. It's not the right word. What's the word I'm looking for, Jeff? He's very much feeding into Garibaldi's.

[20:34] Like, right? Yeah, absolutely. Like, he's not helping his case at all. No. Also, can you blame him? I mean, you come in, you go through all that you go. And the first thing that happens is a dude just ups and quits. But he's going to set up business right there on your station and still be around. Like, is it a little awkward? Like an old girlfriend hanging around? I think it's awkward if you're looking at like the Minbari look at it, where like your calling is to work security. This is your place in society. They come from a place where you quit jobs and get new jobs and start businesses. And like, it's not that his employment was a marriage, right? Or a sacred vow. It was a job. And he wasn't like, I'm quitting because you people suck. He's like, we've been through hell and I'm done doing that. Like the reasons he gave for his resignation, I think are pretty legitimate to a point where John Sheridan should have been, Hey man, how's it going? Setting your business up, right? Yeah, cool. Getting an office because we charge rent for that and we need money. You know that. Also, I don't know, turn in your badge and your gun. You're, you're not allowed to use our stuff anymore. You're on your own private guy. Well, that's also on, they should have an offboarding process and an exit interview and just very standard stuff. Where you collect all the stuff that belongs to you. On your property tracking sheet here, it says that we issued you this and this.

[22:00] Yeah. Dr. Franklin, the cryo units are ready for restart. Oh, he's going to use that somehow. I remember that.

[22:09] So it was not your intention to break away from her. Did he do the countdown? But he didn't actually do it. You got out to two. Yeah, I was going to say a little insider here, right? You got, you know, five, four, three, two, and then you're silent. And you go like that. The man stopped on like four. He's like.

[22:35] Four, three. What happened to two and one? So it was never your intention to break away from you. Much the same reason.

[22:46] Yeah, no. Come on, guys. No, no. We're not doing googly eyes during an interview. You i feel like one sheridan has probably been through media briefing before like this is how you do it and after delen's last experience i imagine she's going to be pretty on point for this yeah right yeah and and delen in our council chambers chat brings up a great thing why did sheridan even bring delen into this should have kept her well away from this from isn the the googly i do what i mean i know storytelling on you know plot of the show right but still wars of political policies the heart does as the heart does god this whole thing is none of this should be talked about understand no if they don't understand we will make them understand everything sheridan does in this episode is dumb yeah and i think like dan comes in and says i'm here to tell the truth as i'm able to right he defined this is the field of battle that we're on right now. And these are the rules of engagement. And here's how I'm coming at it. John Sheridan. I'm sorry, by the way, by the way, just to, he is here to do this as he is able. Is that as a free and independent journalist, or is that as an employee of a news organization with a boss who has told him and given him an assignment? Oh, it's that. And that's, that is the playing field.

[24:14] I'm here to do this thing. He has to produce a certain, he's not being sent out there. Hey, we're going to send you out there and we want you to produce a documentary or a thing that's showing us what's going on out there. That's not what he was told to do. He's, we're going to send you out there and you need to dig up all the dirt. You need to do this so that we can put together a hit piece. Yeah. That's what he sent out there to do. And that's what he told Sheridan. Yeah. You can work with me or I'm going to do a hack piece and put it out. Like it's up to you. I'm doing a hack piece either way. It's going to happen. Exactly. I can try to slip in the truth as best I can. Or an intergalactic tactician, the governor of a space station should hear those words and say, oh, so this is the game we're playing. I should probably be strategic in what I show him, who I introduce him to and what I say. Yeah. And it's it's master stroke on Dan Randall. Yeah.

[25:13] Regardless, regardless if he's just a scummy piece of trash or a double agent who's actually trying to help. Can I sit? Sure. I understand you recently resigned as head of security for Babylon 5. That's right. Would you like to talk about it? Not especially. See, Garibaldi's got it dialed in. He had it dialed in for about 60 seconds. Yeah. We did the best we could. Anything we said, we kept down to short declarative sentences. make it harder for them to quote us out of context. Except you didn't at all. At all. What can they do to us?

[25:48] You looked at your girlfriend like you were 12. All right, here, this is, most of the stuff from JMS isn't specific to moments in the show. It's very thematic. And I think this is a good place to put this one. Okay. He wants to be clear that he is not anti-reporter. He says, I'm not anti-reporter. I'm against the control of truth by any government or political agenda. We are made stronger by a multiplicity of voices. And the more those voices are allowed access to a level playing field, the more often the truth will come out to play. That, I think, really goes off what you were saying earlier. Everyone's going to have an angle. Everyone's going to have a bias. But when there's a playing field for all of those things to be there, as critical thinkers, which is the key, which I don't know we have as many around as we did at one time. But as critical thinkers, you can suss the truth through those voices. You have to be.

[26:45] And you know the sad part about that? Okay. And discuss it. God, oh, Jeff, this may get me in trouble. If you guys have problems with it, I'm about to say, you can email us to Brent at. Say Jeff at the Bad Nerds. No, no, no, no, no, no. Not that one. You can email it to Brent at jmstimemachineproductions.com. Having a multiplicity of voices also includes having the people who, frankly, ought to have their licenses pulled.

[27:12] Okay. Like, it includes the pro-Clark folk. It includes the people who are very anti-Babylon 5. It includes all of the, okay, bring us to the real world. Yeah, it includes the pro-fascist news stations. It includes those people. Articles and and what we have to depend upon which is unfortunate because we really it's hard to do that more and more these days is you me you jeff you listener you youtube viewer being a smart person and seeing bull crap where it lays on the surface and even deep beneath the surface but if you're the strength so what was his line again what was his line jms's line uh the more multiplicity of voices and the more those voices are allowed access to a level playing field, the more often the truth will come out to play.

[28:10] There you go. Because then what happens is you wind up with, you have these competing different news sources, they compete with each other and the truth comes out because, you know what I mean? Because that's where that truth then begins to come out. I don't know if this is what you're saying or not, but it's what comes to mind for me is I think every single person here can agree that we are in a time globally, politically, that sucks. I don't care where you are, what side, whatever, this is not a good time. And what it boils down to is we can no longer have a respectful discourse about anything.

[28:45] My theory on this is that we have individually self-selected out all of those other sources of things that dissent with what we believe.

[28:59] They call that an echo chamber, right? What I know and remember was growing up, you couldn't avoid a lot. Like it was just the news was out there. Here's this, there's the newspaper, there's Time Magazine, there's all this stuff. It's exposed. And so whether you wanted to hear from the pro this or the anti that, it did. It was there. That helped discourse. I heard a little bit of where you're coming from. You heard a little bit where I'm coming from. Now we can maybe have a conversation. But now not only do I not choose those things, now there's – we have governments that are putting regulations in place and shutting things down and putting stuff under control so that we're only hearing one thing. And it's usually the one thing that we want to hear or the version that we want to hear. To your point, we need all those voices, even the ones that are – now, I'm a fan of regulation of the airwaves or whatever. Like there's standards. What those standards are are debatable. But I disagree with every single thing this news person or whatever reporter thing is saying. And I'm glad I had a chance to hear it. Cause otherwise, how would you know if you disagree with it or not? Exactly. And to, to Dylan's point over here, uh, it is true.

[30:10] It is harder because of AI to actually trust the video that you see anymore. To trust those things, you have to be able to suss that kind of stuff out. Yeah. And it is getting harder. And a way to do that is a diversity of information sources. I mean, eventually, AI will all be saying the same thing. We'll have one overlord to which we can either bow to or get sliced in half from. It's inevitable at this point, right? But in the meantime, we listen to all those voices dissenting or otherwise. to everybody say it along with me hey alexa thank you be nice to your ai folks.

[30:48] Okay watching for the truth oh this is the newscast now yeah, to celebrate this latest victory against the tyranny of a fanatical few who have endangered the lives of our citizens the tyranny of a fanatical few planetary holiday the first of these tri-vid writer-producer lee parks freely admitted his involvement in the conspiracy this is a thing through our reading of jms's stuff he's referenced quite a bit and that was the days of mccarthyism and calling people out he's referenced that quite a bit and i think this is such such a horrifying look at exactly that i helped alien governments it's just so wild like people will watch this and they believe it using my tribe but they do this isn't messages This isn't TV, this is real Disregard for authority Parks was later conveyed to a hospital Where he will receive proper care and treatment Look how benevolent we are Right.

[31:48] Yeah, probably with his personality having been whatevered Most of the human residents have been forced to live in squalid, filthy, possibly disease-ridden areas of the station Okay, so let's call that out, that's a lie.

[32:02] Not most some for sure and have been forced yes but not because station command forced them to do so they have been forced because of circumstance usually due to finances the system yeah and not the babylon 5 system but the system yeah which by the way was also happening while they were under the control of earth yep exactly so you know but we're not going to say that when they captured this footage it was very apparent there were some drazi running around in the exact same place here so this isn't even just happening to humans sure and those who run the station built with the tax dollars of many of these citizens it's ironic that menbari who fought earth in a war of aggression have been appointed keepers of these poor struggling pockets of humanity trapped in the coldness of space god also complete lie but but did you hear where you went though with that we're giving all these aliens all of your tax all of their tax dollars while you're living in squalor right we're gonna give these now he's not wrong some of the better quarters are reserved for aliens the ambassadors the government stuff the government stuff that frankly they're being subsidized by their governments but not by the tax dollars but boy you want to rent you want to rile people up man tax dollars to tell them it's their tax dollars that's being that's going to these, these, these, holy crap. I really didn't want to get into public current politics.

[33:31] You don't have to do current ones. Yeah. It's all of them. Dr. William Induri is dean of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. Okay. So far, I have yet to see any subversion of the railroad job here. We all remember the fascination with alien religions that gripped Earth culture after we made our first contact with the Centauri. They make those ties back to historical accepted truths, whether they're true or not, but that gives a bit of veracity to all the just garbage they're spewing now. Also, a thing that we still do today is the cryo units are ready for restart.

[34:06] Well, I, as Dan Randall, I'm here to tell you what they actually meant by that, even though all we heard was the cryo units are ready for restart. And then people are like, but this is what they did it for. Let's go kill them. Well, and this is where you do have, like, you got to be careful the documentaries you watch today. Like, this is real life. Because the person writing the documentary is not going to be like, oh, well, let's go find out what those cryo units are. And then they will start stating stuff as fact and pulling their conjecture stuff together. And, and again, this is where you've got to confirm it through multiple sources before you can believe that's a good rule of thumb that I've learned. If something seems really fantastical, so-and-so said this really dumb ass thing or something like that, or this really monumental thing. If they really did that, either a, you're going to be able to go see the video, see the tweet, see the truth post, see the whatever for yourself or be.

[35:03] Multiple people are going to be multiple news outlets are going to be posting about it. Any truth to the rumors you might eventually merit?

[35:13] And no comment for now. I know that look, Jeff. That's when you look at her and be like, you're trying to have a communication like just with your eyes. Are we going to say it? Are we not? Where are we? Okay. No comment.

[35:26] Although I will say, look at Mira. Okay. And I want to really note Mira's acting. We agree. She should not be here. Right. A hundred percent. Sheridan should have kept her out of this. She should have declined this whole thing after what happened last time. However, remember what happened last time. Look at how she's looking at him. Just a good acting choice from Mira here of like, okay, the last time I was here, stuff happened. I am not happy about this right now. I am not trusting you. There's nothing about you I like right now, Mr. Man. There's a lot of people back home who might be concerned about what you're saying. There's no force in the galaxy that can stop what we have done here together. Nothing will be able to stop us. What you'll notice here is where it's cutting to Dan. He wasn't sitting in that chair. and stuff like he's he's putting different different questions and these are but but here's the thing these are real words that they said yep this is stuff that happens in real life all i've seen people say that yeah like no no this happens in real life you and you know where it happens more often than not reality tv shows you see people blowing up at certain stuff people getting really upset people whatever but the thing that they show them getting upset with is not actually what they got upset with in that moment you know and so it's like no it happened it really But, man, you added that in such a way that, oh, made it look like something it wasn't.

[36:46] We've just seen several stretchers with unconscious humans moving down this hall to a room at the far end. Where was Lanier on this? We checked the station manifest, and these names do not appear on any of the passenger, crew, or traveler. John Flynn?

[37:01] I don't see that name in the credits. The key to medical experiments conducted on humans kept in time. Once again, she is the target of all this. By his own admission. And if we choose not to cooperate, if we do not see the wisdom in his alien-influenced logic, Then there's an alien fleet waiting and ready to be used against us. Okay. So what he's done right here is he has brought all of the fears, anger, angst of the Clark supporters to the surface. Yes. He's given them voice. He's given them life. He's given them purpose. And, and those people are locked in right now. Like, yeah, yeah, this is what I've been telling you, man. Yeah. They're all down to get us. Yeah. Right. He's given that voice. He's elevated that. That's where we are right now. And for 15 minutes, he's very effectively –.

[37:57] Circumstantially proved his case. If I don't remember, it's been a long time since I've seen this episode. He's about to poke the biggest hole in it though. Okay. The fault, however, is not his own. The fault is ours for not seeing his condition in time to deal with it. It is my belief that he is not an evil person. He only needs our help. So he's already said it there. Not an evil person. Add to that the pressures of command and the loss of his family's home when their farm was burned to the ground last week his father's still missing okay they had a conversation about his dad right not with sheridan did but sheridan did right yeah you can presume there might have been some sort of a conversation in there possibly or not what did he just do knowing sheridan's watching he just confirmed for sheridan like that to me i'm watching them going that was a direct message to sheridan like hey they got your dad dude but it's within the it's in this context over here so he's doing two things with this broadcast one you just captured perfectly hey clark supporters go here's your bone go chase it the other thing they're i would say i would say isn is doing that yes they're his boss telling him absolutely this is how you're gonna have to shave it right and the other thing isn is also doing is setting sheridan up as a sympathetic genetic.

[39:17] Sure. Think not for the purpose of making him into a hero, but in paving the road for what we get in intersections in real time, when we're going to get you to sign a confession, we're going to get you to do what that director guy did. We're going to set you up to get there. And what he did here wasn't say, dude, your dad's out there. What they did here was say, we burned down his farm and we have him. Come get him so we can get you. Yeah. They threatened him. So we want, we want to help you. We're here to help you and make you be healthy. Also, we have your parents and we will kill them. See, you read that. You read that as a threat. I read that. I think ISN might be saying that. Okay. The boss is here. My question is Dan Randall. Is he subversively saying, hey, they have your dad, dude. Because Mary said, look, I can't tell you the truth, but I can slip in just enough. That's what we thought on our first watch. And also, they don't have his dad yet, but they're basically saying, we'll get him. Yeah. He's not done yet, though. Okay, good. Yeah, on our first watch, I remember that. That was our thing. This is the truth that he slipped in. Like, hey, this is what's going on. I'm reading it very differently so far this time. Okay. I'm not there yet. I'm not there yet. But he's not done yet. So let's watch the rest of this. This is Dan Randall for ISN.

[40:43] From this to the end is maybe the greatest episode end I've ever seen. It's quiet. Like there's nothing. Do we even get the beep on his thing?

[40:58] Right before we started this episode, I said that I have a clear and definitive answer to if Dan Randall was slipping in the truth or not. Where, and we watched it to see where he slipped in. where do you stand right now? I really wish that I better remembered my impression from the first time around because the truth is I didn't see it this time around. My impression being that he was actually helping out. He was actually trying to do some good for Sherry. He's kind of like he's already on Sheridan's side. But because it's like he said when he was talking to him at the very beginning, hey, listen, us reporters at ISN, a lot of us quit. But some of us stayed so that we can we can help like there's a there's a very famous book that takes place at a school. Right. And bad people come in and sort of take over the school. And several of the teachers that had been there wanted to resign in protest. And it was like, no, no, you can't resign because if you do, no one's here to protect the students. You have to stay and protect the students. And while several of the reporters at ISN quit, some had to stay to be able to look, we're not going to be able to tell you the whole truth because of what's happening now, but we can slip some things in. There was no truth that he slipped it. He didn't poke holes or doubts in.

[42:26] The idea that Babylon 5 is not being controlled by outside alien forces. They didn't do that at all. The only thing they did was to be like, hey, Sheridan's not really such a bad guy.

[42:40] And even in sitting there and saying, hey, they got your dad. Just a heads up. I know you're worried about him. They got your dad. Whether it was Dane Randall or ISN or the government that is controlling ISN right now, it absolutely was a threat. Like what you're saying so i i wish i could remember because the truth is i don't see it and i really kind of hate that because i i loved the idea that he was subverting he was subverting his own bosses to their face while he's trumping all this up and i just don't think that's what was going on what does jms say not a lot he says there really aren't any subtleties in this one what you see is exactly what it is yeah yeah he is he's just a piece of piece of trash that makes me so sad that makes me so sad because i really wanted him to be it would have been not that it would have been encouraged it would have been hopeful right to know that like to know there's a fifth column there's a resistance yeah and they're doing things like that spark yeah.

[43:42] But from what you're saying earlier like the way that jms sets the thing up and knocks the thing down like it just does the whole you need to make the clark regime this monolith yeah mission accomplished also um can we just say how absolute like this might be the absolute worst we have ever seen john sheridan yes oh my god like everything he did in this episode was wrong the only thing he did that was worth anything was that bit he did with Ivanova on the airlock in the suit. That was hilarious. That was great. That was absolutely everything else is court martialable and punishable by firing squad. Yeah, like it was okay. Maybe not to that extreme, Jeff, but I get the hype. It's hyperbole folks. It's hyperbole. Okay, chill. But sending Lanier to give this dude a tour around the station.

[44:34] Letting him see some things, you know be bringing to lynn not shielding to lynn the way he really needed to shield to lynn looking all googly eyed at her and all that sort of stuff like come on dude how gullible is you oh that makes me so sad and there's a i saw in the council chambers chat a really good kind of question there of like you know what he he's military he was a war hero he could have the expectation that they're not you know they're gonna take him at face value or whatever yeah What I know, and I wasn't a military war hero, but I was in the military and I work in a public thing. Anytime you're in that kind of situation, you go through what's called media briefing, media prep.

[45:13] Athletes do this, right? I mean, it's pretty ubiquitous. Here's what you say. Here's what you don't say. Here's how you show up.

[45:20] Well, I mean, we're, we see that with, um, freaking political nominees that need to be confirmed by the Senate or the house or something like that. Right. The, the prep that they have gone through to give canned responses to the Senate. And it's so clear that, that, that they're just issuing canned responses. Anything else in this episode, Brent, you want to dive into? My gosh, man. I, there's a lot we can talk about with the media before we go there though. I want to say that I have some more from JMS that I wanted to get in the messages piece. I think he says it more beautifully than we possibly could. Please do because anything I say right now, it's going to be fairly unbaked outside of, Hey, how much like real life does this look like today? And I think we've examined that so exhaustively over the last three and a half seasons so far. I agree. Go ahead. Yeah. What's, what's he say? He tells a story. He says, uh, back when I was around 14 or 15, A cousin came to stay with us from Eastern Europe for a few days.

[46:21] I don't recall now if she came from Poland or Russia, but her home base was definitely behind the Iron Curtain. She had grown up absolutely believing everything that had been fed to her over the years by Soviet media. That America was an impoverished country, that food was in short supply, that there was no such thing as free speech and so on. So when she showed up, we did everything we could to try and disabuse her of some of those notions, starting with the one concerning food. We took her to a supermarket, showed her the aisles filled with every kind of food imaginable, but she refused to allow the point, convinced this was a state-sponsored show store used to try and convince foreigners about the land of plenty that was the United States. It didn't matter how many other supermarkets we exposed her to, her opinion was unshakable. She left as ill-informed as she arrived, and that is why I write stories like the illusion of truth. The media, left and right, can never let itself forget that its first obligation above and beyond everything else is to the truth. Only the truth will give us what we need to survive the coming winters. Hard times come to us all, but if we're rooted in something resembling the truth.

[47:41] We can always survive and come out the other side. End of lecture. You know what's amazing to me about something like that is how you can have somebody who falls for something that some political folk or media folk have said because it tickles their ears or whatever. And then no matter how much actual truth, backed up evidence you present to them, they just –, absolutely refuse to believe it because this is what they've been told yep over and over and.

[48:17] They're fully in on it like how how much do we see stuff like that happen in real life far too often well jeff my friend you get honors this week i really am very curious to see where you're going to place this into our 100 completely accurate definitive ranking of babylon five season four watching it for the second time here's the thing as as gross and disgusting as this episode is what a fascinating episode yeah what a fascinating.

[48:48] Episode so not only do i need you to place this jeff i need you to explain to us your reasoning why it's going to go where it's going to go our current i'm going to say top five okay starting from the bottom is number five is the summoning four is hour of the wolf three is whatever happened to mr garibaldi two is the long night and one into the fire jeff where do you place this one and why we often get caught in these rankings between like oh my god i love this episode it's so fun to watch and incredible and this had such a strong message to it and it's just an overwhelming overwhelmingly beautifully built delivery method for a for a message and that's where we are here because the episode itself like the babylon five episode sucked it was the worst of john sheridan it was the worst of michael garibaldi it was not the finest delen that we've ever seen it was pretty great avanova but like the these were not our characters acting as our characters that we've come to know dr Franklin was pretty on point.

[49:59] But I, I, I struggle with I struggle a lot with just that. I have more confidence in Dylan and John Sheridan and Dylan even should have been John. This isn't a good idea. I know he told you this stuff, but like, do you remember what happened that last time? And they totally railroaded me. Do you remember that? Right. Like everybody was totally off their game and sure. I mean, maybe that's because they're just finished this massive galactic conflict against the shadows and the Vorlons. Like sure, maybe, but it's just so off brand for them. So the episode i'm going to say sucks the construction of the episode the messages the way that it challenges just so what we as humans i think assume right we we should be able to trust these sources whatever especially when they're supposed to be unbiased exactly you know.

[50:54] As a challenge i think we're going to have in ranking every babel on five episode They're all beautifully constructed, except for like Prey 17, maybe. And there's reasons for that. And I think that it was done in a way that it's –, incontrovertible like on our first time watch we're like hey he told him about sheridan's dad so maybe but i think that we were we were grasping for hope after what we just saw with the shadows and vorlons we wanted that badly we're smarter now we've been through the crucible of babylon five and everything well we didn't know that intersections in real time was coming was right around the corner we did yeah we like we had no idea so and so i think like knowing so much of this god i i just like i have a place i want to put it but i keep coming back to like this episode shouldn't have happened sheridan should not have allowed this to like it shouldn't have been a thing i think i think the mission log guys at least in the early years would call this the gumbification of characters yes this is not your character they did this to suit the plot of this particular episode because that is not how they would act in any other normal circumstance and that's, that's gonna hurt this episode. I'm like, this was gonna crack the top five. Yeah. Based on what it is with that. I can't, I can't, I can't. And it's gonna be our number seven on the, on the season. Wow.

[52:19] I think it's a critical episode to the arc of the earth stuff and Babylon five itself. I'm not saying the episode shouldn't have happened. I'm saying this should not have been an opportunity that came up. Right. So I'm curious what we did the first time.

[52:35] Well, yeah. What did we do the first time? I always want to go back now and listen to just based on what we talked about earlier, but also this ended up at number 17.

[52:43] That's pretty low. Yeah. That's pretty low. So, you know, I remember now for a word ended up really low our first watch. And I don't remember where it ended up here, but it ended up really low. Our first watch, not because it was a bad episode, but because of you and I binging this show the way we are. It was unnecessary. Yeah, we didn't understand. It was a good episode, but we just were like, we don't need an episode that effectively just recaps what's happened so far because we've just been watching it. We just saw this. yeah we just saw it so um this one ending up at 17 that either speaks to how good the season is because i yeah i will tell you what regardless of where this winds up this is an important episode absolutely an important episode i think it goes back to what jms said that i shared in the beginning this is an episode that will be discussed a lot and not rewatched much because it's hard to watch uh and now for a word ended on our second time at number seven for on season two wow we held it much higher regard what it come up because it's a great episode yeah.

[53:52] It's a good episode. And we recognize that the first time around. Very well done. This episode, very well constructed, very well done. I agree with you, though. The gumbification of our characters in this episode hurts it because it's not what it's really not what would have happened. Yeah. And I think, you know, this is a thing that we really only can understand on a second watch on the first time. Well, maybe this. No, no. This is just.

[54:19] Yeah. in fact maybe zach was the only one yeah straight i mean well because there was a possibility the first time around that this guy is going to come back at the end and be like he's going to show back up and here's a thing no no he's not in fact you and i both know we never see this guy again exactly well jeff i'm i am glad to have peeked behind the curtain of this illusion, and to be like ah we see the trick and now it's not fun anymore moving on next week we're watching a what i remember was a a really favorite of an episode called atonement jeff what do you remember your thoughts about this one god i love this episode we get ducat we get uh delen doing you know going back we we do caught have we who's that have we heard of him before we have yeah he was this this figure who got killed and started a war.

[55:12] Because he got killed and he became a cult leader and they built statues of him yeah and uh fire something about fire caves dying there they changed species at one point yeah something it's pretty pretty wild but uh i do the what i loved about this too is like we dove into so much minbari so dumb i'm sorry we're so dumb go ahead what now we couldn't not right but we got so much on Minbari stuff, right? A child of Valen. And we start to get some of the stuff with the clans and the different, uh, you know, the different casts and stuff. That's really in a way makes the civil war stuff work for us. And we see more of it in, uh, in the beginning. God, I just, I, I think I remember just absolutely loving this episode. But you.

[56:00] Yeah. And I think this episode comes at the perfect place. This is not an episode you should watch first. Even though, you know what I mean? Like you need the buildup to what this episode does, but the way that this episode goes back and reframes the Lynn specifically, but reframes the earth memory war. It gives us the history. Is it an episode that we need? Is this an episode that is there, is there a change that happens in the Lynn due to her experience in this episode? Question. And I think it's pretty, cause she goes through the, the whispering about the, the, the whisper. I remember there, there's that whole piece of dreaming and stuff. Yeah.

[56:39] You know, and we know that Dylan's not too far from the Mimbari civil war and leading through that and being able to step forward in a new and even more powerful way that doesn't have her just as the side piece. You know so i'm very interested to see this to see this episode in light of knowing the minbari civil war coming up in light of knowing how she's going to reform the great council in light of knowing those things i'm interested to watch this episode because it was is it fair to say this is the single best dylan centric episode in the series it could be also like when i think about it as far as i think about it more yeah it sets her up for the stuff in the civil war but i I almost think this alters Dylan retroactively.

[57:24] It's not a retcon, but how we saw Dylan on our second watch from the gathering on was completely because of this episode. It was atonement Dylan, right? It was atonement Dylan, not... Whatever other delay season one that's fair that's absolutely fair and also we could be so wrong and everything that we remember and you do not want to miss that so make sure that you're subscribed all that stuff will be here the same bab time same bab channel all that good stuff but if you're subscribed you're not going to miss the stuff it'll be great like comment all those things if you comment we love interacting with you when we're able to over on our patreon god opportunity to interact there also some cool stuff unedited versions of this unedited versions of uh stargate we have a ton of other things that we put on there a lot of content it's really worthwhile, so with that that dude over there is brent allen i'm jeff aiken hey jeff yeah what's up brent, i mean we're not some some deep space franchise this station is about something.