Rumors, Bargains and Lies | For the Second Time

[0:44] The year is 2026. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And my name is Jeff Aiken. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, but then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed. So now we're watching this incredible series for the second time because Babylon 5 is a series that you get to watch for the first time twice. That's right. And we are still going to be searching for those sci-fi messages that we find in the series. We're asking, what is this episode trying to tell us? What's JMS trying to tell us?

[1:25] We're looking for things that hold up a mirror to society, give us hope that things can be better in the future, or just tell us how to be better human beings to one another. Now, that being said, as Jeff mentioned earlier, this is our second time. We have been through this entire series before. We got to go through it spoiler free the first time around. Thank you once again to the amazing people out there who put a bubble around us and kept us safe. That was amazing. And I got to tell you, that is the way to watch this show for the first time. So if you have never seen this show, I would never do this. Otherwise stop listening to us right now. Well, don't stop listening to us. Stop listening to this episode and go back and join us for our first watch where everything was spoiler free. And then once you've made it through the show yourself, catch back up with us here. Uh, because from this point forward, everything is fair game for Jeff and I to talk about. Everything is full of spoilers. Anything from any point in the, in the, in the timeline, any point in the universe, in universe out of universe conventions books everything is fair game for jeff and i to talk about so please be warned this is your one and only and final spoiler warning this week brent we're watching rumors bargains and lies when we watched this for the first time we played a game where we predicted what each episode was going to be about based on the title alone and.

[2:45] I really dug deep for mine i said uh this is gonna be like delen on minbar doing all the politics stuff, addressing the rumors making bargains and probably making lies as well wow yeah, i just said the thing for the thing you did what did you predict for it not that, um in fact i did probably jeff what like, I don't actually remember this prediction. I am pretty sure we caught some probably bad emails after this prediction. You think? Oh, yeah. Yeah, because what I basically said was I said, this is JMS ripping off a Star Trek episode. Uh-oh. And I'm not really sure which one came first, but basically this was their version of In the Pale Moonlight from Deep Space Nine, Which is basically Sheridan is up to some shenanigans, probably doing something super shady for the purpose of forming an alliance because we know and we really got the idea he's forming a new alliance of various cultures and worlds and things like that to start this thing. And so it was him having to do something that was very out of character in order, to make this happen is basically what basically he's been Cisco.

[4:05] And yeah, that's that's what I said. I couldn't imagine that possibly spurring any upset emails. It honestly it irritates me sitting here now looking back at that prediction. Like I want to slap past me and be like, why? This is not Star Trek. Stop it, Brent. I love those moments when we get mad at ourselves like so many other people did the first time around. Brett, we have a recap of the things we said the first time. What do you say we watch that and see if we get upset with ourselves again? Let's do it. Previously on Babylon 5 for the first time. Rumors, bargains, and lies. Sheridan's got to bring people in to the Alliance. My favorite moment was just when all those league guys are outside and Franklin comes running through. Maybe just send me a little more blood. in case it's what I don't say and how I don't say it that's going to get people freaking out I mean this was great the idea that he could put a thought into their head, and make them think it was their own thought in order to accomplish his goal for what he needed, This is just seeing a fear and playing to that fear. You know what the fear was? It was FOMO. What are they getting over there? We're not getting it. Yeah, in this episode, we're told that the Mabari Civil War has started, but I can barely feel it. Remember when the Narn Centauri stuff started?

[5:30] I felt that. I don't really get the same sense that much is happening. All the pressure and tension between the castes is pretty much the same pressure and tension we've always had between the castes. What's new is the infighting within the castes, right? What I really saw was religious versus religious. So we've seen that, and then we saw it with the warrior cast. It's a civil war, but I don't think it's so much a civil war amongst the castes as it's been made out to be.

[6:01] Right. I feel like the Minbari stuff in this episode was meant specifically to set up at least the next episode. At first, I was like, Dylenn's talking, Dylenn's talking, and she's like, did I do this by breaking up the Great Council? And I'm sitting there going, yes, you did. Hello? This is your fault. This is what I said, what, last week, maybe two weeks ago? Two weeks ago, yeah. You are the villain of the Babylon 5 universe. I think Nerun's playing his own game. I mean, he's playing double agent here. He's a triple agent either way i think naroon is kind of playing his own game so lanier um i mean great great spock moment where he goes to sacrifice himself for the needs of the mini i was worried for a moment he was gonna die, i was like now he's he's gotta stick around we can't we can't lose lanier and we haven't even mentioned the worker class coming over yet and doing anything, you know what needs to happen is like the religious cast and the warrior cast need to like, shove off and the worker class just needs to be in charge for a while. Look at that.

[7:03] Also, you, said Dylan, is the villain of the series, not me. Just want to make that very clear.

[7:14] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you said that.

[7:19] There might have been a little bit of testing of the Golden Child theory that we've had in that.

[7:28] Just see. Hey, I'm actually going to underplay. I'm going to say the exact same thing and let's wait for the blue back and see what happens. Yep. And it's a almost positive that you, that you received quite a bit of it. I'm excited for this. I, I, we talked about it last week. There's a lot. I don't remember about this. We were questioning if this even was the Minbari civil war episode last week. Right. So what do you say? We watch it now for the second time. I think let's do it. All right. What's going to happen right now. Brett and I are going to watch the episode. We're going to bring it up. We're going to watch it with you. We'll do the reaction thing, right? Where we pause it. We share our thoughts. We'll dive into messages and just our reactions in real time. If you're watching us on YouTube, we're going to cut that up, edit it, reaction video style. And if you want to see the full, the unedited version, we share those on our Patreon page. That's at patreon.com slash bad nerds. And if you're listening to us on an audio podcasting app, never fear. Jeff and I have not forgotten you. We're actually going to have the audio from the episode because Jeff and I are going to have those conversations that happened. We want you to be caught up with us. And then obviously we'll still have the podcasting side as soon as we're done listening to it on the back end. So, Jeff, let's watch an episode. Let's do it. Accessing file.

[8:52] Oh, I remember this when he's just like, look at how smart I am. I thought this happened with Lockley. This is so early. Good morning, Captain. White starships along their borders as a peacekeeping force. Thanks for the recap. Right. Just in case we missed last time on Babylon 5. Hold on. Did you see the same thing I saw? Maybe. There it is. That? The poster on the wall? Yeah. How do I get my hands on this man? I want that. I'm going to put that back here. does that exist somewhere like hey if anybody, like legit if anybody knows where that graphic exists because it's got to be somewhere it has to be i mean that'd be a cool t-shirt man like holy smokes dude sorry nothing.

[9:37] He's he's got like an air pod in one ear getting them all right it's gonna be hard so you know for most of them, listening to a podcast right now right i mean they really haven't you know it is kind of funny how like that's not uncommon now what do you mean like now if you see someone like at a cafe or somewhere and just kind of chuckling to themselves you're like oh yeah they're probably listening to something right but back then it's like what's wrong with this guy oh yeah you're you're i saw the movie uh obsession that's out in theaters right now, highly recommend highly recommend if you're into horror stuff like that top notch but there's this little scene where guys in the store trying to get some help and the girl's on a phone call in her airpods and is having both conversations at the same time we've all been in that situation all the things that we could play for laughs back here in the 90s are now just life convince them and how do we do that by not convincing them, dude i promise you i'm sorry 87 i promise you keep your eye on jeff conway when when sheridan slams his fist keep your eye on jeff conway i promise you none of that was planned that was like his reaction and everything was 100 like oh crap i can't believe that just happened like just just watch to convince them, and how do we do that by not convincing them, watch your face look at him look at him.

[10:59] I want you to take three white stars are we gonna are we gonna cut seven no okay he was he was so proud of himself in that moment it's like he took a minute he's like oh my god i just did that, that's great that grabs the orange juice and just like he did he did not anticipate that being the thing civil war yes It's war! Start. Lanier would totally roll up in there listening to like that old war, you know, that war song. War. Tell me what a good fall. Absolutely nothing. Right.

[11:41] Welcome to Etheria. Ooh. Catch that reference. Did you see that movie too? No, not yet. I've been catching up on cinema. Father used to carry me through the city on his shoulders. They were the peace promised by Valen. A thousand years of peace. It's interesting to me that full awareness of Valen Sinclair, spent time with Sinclair, and she still has that reverence for everything that he said. Like, I mean, I'm not questioning her saying it's just very interesting to me. Like she has religious awe for what she knows is just a dude. I imagine that's that's still hard to break. And is Valen still actually Sinclair? I would say no. I mean, I mean, is Dylan half human still Dylan memory? I don't think that Dylan today is the same as Dylan yesterday. I don't think me today is the same as yesterday. Preach, brother. Preach. If we are the same, we've something's wrong. Yeah, we've missed out. Think of my beautiful city in flames, Lanier. Yeah, look at all those flames. Yeah. The streets where I walked. And I cry, Lanier. Well, and Mira's probably drawn on some stuff from her own in real life. Yep. She has seen this.

[13:00] That's a great call out, Brent. That's really good. Vaylin always said the council would be broken in the Great Shadow War. Things would continue on, like some great clockwork mechanism, as long as the war was won. Some clockwork angels, maybe? It would be all right. The council imposed balance between the cast by suppressing the old resentments, the fears, the imagined slights, but it could not erase them. Take that away, and all the old problems come right back to the surface again. That's pretty profound. Perhaps. So, this is her fault. Well no it's a society right they treated the symptom they didn't treat the cause valen came in and he knew enough to be like and put a band-aid over this yeah we got to be cool right and this is a way we can be cool yeah never actually went in and fixed the stuff and we see that in the min bar right where they're oh look how elevated we are and then they become petty species racists about everything sure well it's all it's all secret like it like we're not going to put it out here on the surface, but we're going to keep it bubbling. And then, you know, some hot shot comes in and allows people to actually give voice to these things that have been suppressed and been secret this whole time. And I like Ben's comment. Vaylin says, be excellent to each other and party on dudes. There's no better way of saying it. Comedy team of Rebo and Zooty.

[14:21] You don't like Rebo and Zooty? No, not even a little bit. Wow. So JMS asks, somebody asked him if Rebo and Zooty were references to anybody real. No, they were just, it was a cool sounding set of names. That's about as cool as it gets is how, how it sounds. Okay. Jeff, here's what we need to do right now. We need to do something here. Okay. This is something that we can only do as a second watch while you're tracking what's going on with Neroon. We need to track what's going on with Sheridan here. Cause he's, he's up to something. And I don't, I don't fully remember how this resolves. Okay. It's been a while since we saw it the first time. Right. So we, we want to track. So Sheridan comes in, he has his plan. And he's got to get all of these worlds to align and to allow the Rangers and the White Stars to be patrolling their borders and basically the start of the Interstellar Alliance, right? And he's got Londo and Jakar. He's got the Centauri and the Narn already on board. They're out there patrolling. And he comes up and he goes, we're going to do it by not doing it. We're going to do it by not talking about it. And that makes absolutely no sense. And so now he's here talking to Londo saying, don't say anything about it, but we're going to keep them there. Yes, we're going to keep them there. And we're going to keep them over Narn too, but don't talk about it. Just keep it secret. Don't say anything. What's going on? What's going on? Well, do you want me to guess? Because I know what's going on. No, let's track it. No, there's no guessing. Let's track where he is. Go.

[15:41] So his plan to get the other non-aligned worlds to allow the Rangers and the White Stars to patrol their areas. Well, I mean, I said it in the recap. It's by FOMO. Yes. Right? Like, oh, this is the cool kids club. We want to get there. But it was neat. Nia just said Sheridan just created Club 65. Like, you know, we're not going to talk about it. Nope. If you like guys, there is a club 65. And if you don't know what club 65 is, you won't, you won't. We can't tell you, you have to discover it for yourself. That's the rule. Now, if you know, you know, and if you have to guess, or you think, you know, then you don't know. You don't. All right. Cause if you know, then you, you know, it is right. And that's kind of, I guess what Sheridan's doing here is, is, is no, we're not doing a thing. No. Well, why would you think that we're doing a thing over here? Right? Like that's really what he's doing. it's the fear of missing out he's creating, uh creating the desire where there is none he was able to lean on his relationship with londo and jakar right you know come on guys come on come on and they're like fine everyone else is going to be exactly where they were really, what do you really and he doesn't have the relationship um also i just he referenced the the winchester mansion.

[16:54] On the thing have you ever gone into that i have been there it's just i mean it's as i it's in the bay area it's on my if i drive down to california it's not too far off the track but like like have you studied it like have you looked at at the way the house is made and all that's a bit i i have two i've been there and i've walked through it oh you have yeah it's a thing you can do oh yeah oh i've never oh, It's cool. Like, it's a thing. Like, if you're out, if you're ever, I think it's San Jose, I think is where it is. I know it's in the Bay Area there. If you're ever in, it's definitely a thing you've got to do. Oh, man. I may come out just for that. Because that's, it was on an episode of like Unsolved Mysteries or something like that way back in the day. Like, that's where I first came.

[17:37] Point being, if you're under the sound of our voice and you don't know what the Winchester Mansion is, Google it. Look it up. YouTube it. Or watch the old Unsolved Mysteries episode. it's pretty fun like it's it's an interesting interesting deal anyway on the way down if you're driving from portland like i am and you get into southern oregon there's a vortex that exists also there's a handful of these places in the world where just, the parallels and the whatever but you actually when you like in you're on a car on a hill and you put your car into neutral and you actually go up the hill, it's not extreme like it's you know just a little bit of a thing but it's pretty cool like just it's just part of there's basically like just this drive off just off of the five where like just weird kind of supernaturally things the vortex winchester house there's a couple other little things too probably a big ball of twine or something like that big tree you can drive through i've heard of that i've heard of that we definitely want to do the the, sequoias is that what they're called yep yeah yeah it is amazing all right let's get back to this he's looking, good dude yeah exactly they're just like you know what you need, facial hair you need some facial you need some gel in your hair push it back now that now that you've been resurrected now that you're back from the dead, they're hysterical.

[18:51] Trust me. Right? Nothing bad ever came from that. Zoot! Zoot! I love that. It's funny in the moment, but knowing where it leads, I'm just offended by it. Right, right. It would have been better if you never gave us Rebo and Zooty. Exactly. Uh-oh. Oh, here he is. So, we called this out the first time, I'm pretty sure, but note, Narun's standing in the back. Delenn will be standing in the front.

[19:25] Yeah look at that uh-huh hello Neroon given the fighting that's going on back home I should think you would be very worried to be alone with one of the warrior car I would, if it were anyone else but you oh wow why is that come with me and find out, Come with me and you'll see a world of pure imagination.

[19:53] That's such pure pressure, too. Did she say, I would do this with anybody but you, or I would be scared of anybody but you, because she actually respects him, given what happened last time? Or because she has absolutely no respect and she has no fear of this man? Guests after all. I think it has to be that she respects him and believes that she can actually have a dialogue with him. I mean, it sounded like a slam when actually I don't think it was at all, but she kept that face as if also it's going to sound like a slam to everybody else, but you know that I'm don't actually think like, you know what I mean when I say that. She painted him into that corner of like, if you don't come with me now, you are a wuss and everyone sees it. Such a powerful message right here imagine if you will that you live in a time and or a place where the division between people is so extreme that they can't even necessarily occupy the same space i know it's a stretch but just try to imagine that well there's a vast gap or maybe an aisle between them for yeah as for an example okay sure imagine if two people one on each of those divided lines were like, hey I actually have some respect for you let's go talk, I wonder if this show will show us what happens from that this.

[21:14] Guy's scared he's coming from a scarcity like oh my gosh it's us them there's no winning for anyone or it's win lose there's no win win.

[21:22] Not even a desire to win but a desire to not let them win it doesn't matter if I actually win or not but they can't period I need your help Neroon My help? But your actions have always been motivated by one desire. To do what is right for our people.

[21:39] She sees him like she sees where he's coming from but i would rather have someone who opposed me out of an honest belief in the rightness of his cause this has been building ever since the war the fire cannot be stopped, it will have to burn itself out before the two sides will listen to reason, oh my god i just so there's so much in this thing to unpack what happened after ducat died like what did the minbari people feel rage probably i don't want to say hopelessness but vengeance uh, what do we do now you know probably a lot of that's a shoot what do we do now, um some of them probably wanted to grab the power vacuum the fire there was a unquenchable fire that they had to destroy humanity sure, the fire that was there wouldn't stop here we are again naroon the fire cannot stop i think what we're seeing is we're seeing delenn who like what she said we need to talk about the future naroon's stuck in the past right now like in the old way of thinking we have this fire we're we're mad we're angry it's built up we have no other choice but to see it through and it's taking the odd person the the hybrid minbari human the one who's been like kind of you know who's been ostracized from society to come and say we can look at this a way.

[23:00] Who's actually been ostracized, the person who's halfway crossed over and been ostracized for it to come back in and actually speak truth. Maybe we should start listening to our ostracized a little bit more. You think of the people that used to, this person was the greatest champion of X cause. Now they're not, they have been left out. They have been ostracized because of whatever reason. And actually they're the biggest truth tellers now.

[23:30] Interesting but we are two against the world gone mad mad that's what they called it with ducat madness for that i need your help okay so track it he he she, she did the smart thing she pulled him away from being in front of everybody he didn't have to perform she can actually just talk to him now and he's like interesting and she appealed to his uh, his motivation his intent i think the most powerful thing that happened here is she saw him like she was like you care about our people. I don't always agree with your methods, but I agree with where you're coming from. It's the thing we've talked about so much on here. We get so focused on what is happening as opposed to why it is happening. Right. Delenn was able to take that step and see why. And then that built a bridge between the two of them. I think that Delenn was able to see the respect the two of them had for each other. I don't know that Naroon was able to see it until she really pulled the curtain back on it. Dylan was able to see the respect that Dylan and Naroon had for each other, even though Naroon couldn't see it until this moment. And now Naroon also sees the, the shared respect they actually do have for each other. I think so. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. And I think it was her very intentionally pulling, you know, look, like we were on the same page here. Being pointed out in our council chambers chat while we're paused here. If we look, Naroon is wearing green. Dylan is wearing purple. Are you serious?

[24:54] I'm team Naroon. So he said a thing. What are we to do, Dylan? We are just two people against an entire world. One of the things we talk about a lot here and is out there in the zeitgeist of Babylon 5 is JMS's respect for the writings of J.R.R. Tolkien. And I think one of the things that have come up around the Lord of the Rings trilogy specifically, but I think a lot of his writings in general, one of the themes are that the smallest of us can make the biggest of differences. And that's really embodied in Lord of the Rings in a, in a Hobbit, uh.

[25:28] With no title, no stature, just a guy who would have lived a quiet life, not a big name, not, you know, some Lord or whatever, just I'm dude who's got bag end. Like that's the thing and whatever. And it was able to change the entire world. And I think, I don't know if it was intentional or not. Should be cool if it was, but that line really harkens back to that theme. Also, these are two pretty big name people that like, but also two can make the difference. Is Naroon really a big name person? I mean, I guess in Minbari society, I'm thinking more of just in Babylon five as a show. Cause this is what his third episode, something like that is like, we only know him because of how we know him. Isn't it amazing how somebody can only show up for a couple of episodes and they're like a huge person in the, in the world. And especially one like naroon who is a one shot like right i'm gonna use him in this one episode and that's it and then oh my god he's amazing i don't really think it's my place to comment captain all i can say is we certainly wouldn't be there if we weren't wanted then they asked for the ships.

[26:32] I can't confirm that captain may i ask you may not you have your orders why not just tell him why is he not telling his senior staff why is he not bringing them into this whole process There's no leaks. Also, I think he's kind of making it up as he goes along a little bit. Doesn't at least Ivanova deserve to be, like, let in on what's happening so she can track it with him? Not always, no. There are times, but... Most of the time, yeah. I also think there's a piece in there where if this all goes south and he read someone else in on it, do they share in the culpability? Maybe he's trying to give them, you know, I don't know either. Okay. Good day, Commander. Captain? This is the greatest thing I've ever done in my life. I have no idea what you are talking about. That's a great shot set up right there, by the way. The star set was seen on your borders, Ambassador. The maker has gifted us with great big eyes, great big scanners, and great big, uh...

[27:34] There's no concern of yours, look, there's no question they're hiding something from us. I was wondering if your governments can send us some additional blood supplies for each of your races. How much? As much as possible. Much as you can spare. Why? Oh, no particular reason, I just, uh, I just thought it would be a good idea in case we needed it for, Well, in the event of a crisis or an attack. Franklin is playing this like he knows exactly what's going on. I'm in a hurry. I'm in the middle of something. I mean, frankly, Londo did too. I will injure governments. It's very much, hey, there's something going on here. I'm not going to say anything. Sure. Did Delinda front him? Why else would she behave this way unless she intended for us to surrender? So this guy is doing a thing that I call assigning motives. I see this happening. I see this happening. There's no other reason to do that except for this. Clearly must be why she's doing that she intends to have this happen this must be why she's doing that and this is what she means by that rather than talking to her rather than asking her rather than going by this other dude who's like no that's not actually anywhere close to what, she also the other guy's assigning motives to her do by saying it's not that here's what i've learned in my 40 something years on this earth at this point when you assign motives to people you are almost always wrong yeah almost always a couple times you'll be right but for the, vast majority of the time oh well they did that they must admit the.

[29:00] Yeah and then turns out no that's not at all what was going through their head in that moment don't assign motives to people folks just just ask them and take them for what they say and then move on this ship cannot be allowed to reach home, if we can't get what we want let's manufacture the thing that will get us what we want Right. Well, isn't that what Sheridan's doing back on the station? He's not asking anybody to die, though, I think is a pretty keen effort. Two ships of this size. You don't hear that on ISN. That's a pretty cool image behind her, too. Not as cool as the earlier one, but still cool. Are you going to stay? Sir, I... Ten seconds. Oh, I love that. That was good. That look! Oh, my God! Go! First, one brief announcement. Absolutely nothing whatsoever happened today in Sector 83x9x12.

[29:53] I repeat, nothing happened. Please remain calm. That repeat was brilliant. There's a question from an audience member asking JMS. It looked like Ivanova was reading from a teleprompter. Was she? Yeah. They actually had Claudia using a teleprompter for that part of the thing. They wanted it to add to the sense that she was actually reading as they went there. Makes total sense. He also adds to the end of that as a little addendum. enjoy the happy-go-lucky sheridan because this is the last we're going to see of him for a very long time things get a little heavy from here right, the enemy must be invisible some new cloaking system yes they're keeping this technology to themselves with the vorlon gone they're the only ones who have it they want to leave us unprotected left to fend for ourselves notice how easily manipulated these guys are i was just gonna say i don't know if we mentioned this in our first time but this is The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street. This is Twilight Zone beat for beat. Sure. Have you not seen that? No. Oh, my God. Watch the original. It is brilliant. But literally, like, these...

[31:02] So these aliens come in and basically like they make someone's light switch, like light flash, and then people freak out because they're like, oh, why did the thing happen? Oh, I bet I bet it's because of this. I bet that. And then like people die. They rise up to a point and they start shooting people and stuff. And this is exactly that. Interesting. It's almost like they had the same idea on the warrior cast side. Uh-huh. You sure you are, right? I am fine, Dylan.

[31:32] His head is actually dented right now. It's only a flesh wound. Can we put that down? There are other ways to solve disagreements than violence? I need you to keep an eye on the other warriors. Look at that. He's like... Neroon was attacked because some of them believed that the warrior caste is going to surrender to us. There are other ways, more reasonable ways. The extremists among us never see that. It would rather be martyrs to misinformation and old ways. Martyrs to misinformation and old ways. So good. Wow. And she's straight up calling this dude out and she has no idea. She's just speaking truth. Thank you.

[32:15] Thank you, everybody around the room for remaining silent so we don't have to pay you. Oh, my God. They're all like, I can't. Hey, you better go stop the gas from releasing. Have we fallen so far that we cannot even trust ourselves? What a great line. Have we fallen so far that we cannot even trust ourselves? In this fictional reality that I've created of Division, which I want to be super clear about, I'm not. Both sides in this division are quite culpable in the whole thing. I want to be clear about that. I would imagine in that reality, maybe people have fallen so far. They, hmm. Interesting. Interesting. That they would both metaphorically and literally eat their own. I assumed your behavior was prompted by a sense of your own superiority, your ego, the usual fanaticism we've come to expect from the religious cast. I thought that too. In the last year, I've begun to realize that I was wrong. Me too. Ducat chose you above all to follow him. He's late! This is one of my favorite scenes of Sheridan. Then we will confront him with what we know! No.

[33:25] There is wisdom in silence. Wisdom in knowing more than they believe we know. The game is right. By showing them what we know, we may put ourselves at a disadvantage. If we reveal our sources of information, he may shut them down. Prevent us from finding out what is really going on. Let Sheridan think we do not know about this invisible enemy. Let him continue to underestimate us. As long as we get what we want. What pretext do we use to get these ships? how tired of you late gentlemen, now what is it you wanted to see look at that i love that shot we insist you must put as many of the white star fleet as you you know what this really is i'm going to rewind a little bit so we can but, uh this really is the oh that's a great spot i just that, background for him is so good this is a real glimpse into the interstellar alliance that we're going to see not only, do all the non-aligned worlds kind of come together in a way but sheridan just tells them what to do and withholds all the information that he wants to withhold from them plop this in the middle of season five and it's just the isa this afternoon and delivered to each of you by the end of the day good, thank you captain you may go now you may go now, wow, the hubris.

[34:49] I remember that in the first time what i said here, yeah he should have said woohoo right, hey remember when lanier almost died saving londo yeah they had to make the dummy of him because um, his real life father passed away and couldn't be around and whatnot they had that dummy lay on a flat bed yeah what an affront to the minbari well he was in an earth medbay not a minbari medbay i I mean, part of the thing of MedBay is providing culturally appropriate care. They got the atmospheres. They got all the stuff. It does make me wonder if you go into a Mimbari operating room. Are they situated like that while they're trying to operate? Everything's spilling out all over the place. She does not see the same world that you and I see. In her world, we are better than we are. We care more than we care. We act towards each other with compassion. I much prefer her world to that of my own and I will not allow anything to threaten that such a great way of under cutting them into pieces but in a way that's like aspirational and hopeful, we are we can be better than this you're not but we can be.

[36:12] He's like, also, f*** you guys. This is Commander Susan Ivanova, Babylon 5, bringing you the voice of the resistance. Gone? What do you mean gone? Gone to the other side? From Alit Narun to Shaqiri, shy elite of the warrior caste. Tell our ships to stand by. Victory will be ours within the week. Was that the lie? Well, the whole thing was everything that Narun said to Delin a lie. And that was the truth. Right. That's how I interpreted it, I think, the first time around. I think so. I think that's how I'm interpreting this time, and I think that's what's supposed to be intended by it. I don't think he is...

[36:53] Look, I'm going to say this next week because I think – because next week is when we deal with the end of the Mimbari Civil War, right? Yes. Okay. I'm going to say this again next week. I hate the way Naroon goes out. I hate the speech that he – I love what he does. I hate the speech he gives. Yeah.

[37:09] It's not my favorite JMS writing. It's – frankly, it's lame to me. My heart is – come on, dude. Just make the sacrifice. Just be you. Um, but given that that's what we get, the idea right now is he does, he is not suspecting this about himself. He does not know this about himself. So the fact that he is going in being very duplicitous with Dylan, even now in a way that seems like it's not. And that Dylan is just being super gullible or is she? So, yeah, I think the lies is actually everything we saw up to this point for Naroon and the message to Shaqiri was actually the truth. But the interesting thing about that is Naroon now has a foot on each side of the fence because at any point he can choose one or the other. And that becomes the truth, I guess. That becomes the one we go with. Right. And I don't know that Naroon is doing that on purpose. I don't know that he's keeping his options open, so to speak. I just think he's in a spot where he really could shoot. It's what actually allows him to make the call he does next week. It's an interesting thought that historically we will look at his message to Shaqiri as the lie. But in this moment, what you're saying is it's the truth. Truth is time-bound. Truth can change.

[38:37] Kind of interesting. Yeah, I feel... I, what I want to, what I believe at this point, and I'm going to kind of watch for it next week, but I think this is done in a way to make us believe that Nerun is double crossing her and, you know, up until the end when it's like, oh my God, he was a hero the whole time. Right. But what I want to believe is that he's all in on, uh, all in on what he and Dylan talked about. And this is just him keeping up appearances that like what we saw with him with Shaqiri is the lie. I think that his heart was changed. I would love for that to be the case. It'd be, yeah. Like, I would love for, that's actually the way I want this to be. I don't think that is it, but that's the way I want it to be. Yeah. I think both, like your way, it totally makes sense as well. They both do and we'll never necessarily know. I don't think. Well, you know what we're doing here, Jeff? What's that? We're assigning motives to Neroon. We are, right? Well, we are, but not to the point of like, he did this, so it must be this. Right. We're like, he did this, so what is he really doing? Right. Well, and literally our job here is to suss out what's actually happening and, make those guesses and make those predictions and see what's right or wrong. You said a thing that makes me, I don't want to jump to the Naroon thing next week, but we're there. You said he has a foot in each one, right? And so we kind of go either way. And then what we see next week is he says, oh, I've been religious and blah, blah. Wouldn't it have been great if he was like, it doesn't have to be one or the other. Yeah. Like I'm not warrior or religious. I am in Bari, you know, like, I don't know. Maybe that's just.

[40:05] The next thousand years i mean ben says and again this this is more of a conversation for next week but we're here uh ben and our council chambers uh who joined by the way council chambers uh tier on our patreon they get to join us for our live recordings here for babylon five for the second time he says it may not make it less cheesy but the reason for the speech is that if maroon made this the sacrifice without converting it would have been considered a win for the warrior cast.

[40:29] Sure but at that point who cares like what difference does it make who which cast gets the win. Mimbar got the, Mimbar got the cat, got the, the win. You know, it was, we saw the warrior sacrificing himself to save the religious person and to be the sacrifice. And we, we're not going to honor that person. And I want to see how, because I forget exactly how it goes down. Precisely. Did Brent, do you have anything else that JMS shared that you didn't get a chance to bring up during the episode?

[41:00] He talked, you know, we talked a little bit about Mira and what she was doing and how a lot of a lot of particularly when she's thinking about home world and stuff and how that could have been very related to real life stuff for her. He did say that that Mira brought a lot of truth to this episode. Speaking on that, he also said this speaking about the Lynn, not Mira. And I love this, and I don't know what the context of this particular thing was, but I love what he says here. He says, Delenn, you must understand, is a truth seeker, and among the religious caste, there isn't much more admirable than that. Combined with the fact that she did fulfill the prophecy, and she was the Chosen of Dukat, and she did help in the Shadow War. So yeah, she's had some problems here and there, but what important leader hasn't? Any of those items would be sufficient to crown on a lifetime of achievement, but the cumulative effect is quite daunting and very impressive.

[41:59] And I think that may go even more to a question that I was kind of having was like, why is it Delenn just a season or two ago? Oh, we saw her literally being outcast from Mimbar society, from the great council, getting kicked off the great council to now she's the only one who can unite all the factions or all the, all the tribes or whatever, clans, all the clans. She's, she's, whatever she says is what goes like, how did we get there? And there is a bit of a jump there that is unsaid. I agree. I'm assuming that's what this is in response to. But I do love that. Just what he's talking about with Dylan here. She is a truth seeker and there's not much more admirable than that, but combine that with all this other stuff that has, she's actually done. Yeah. She's, she's, she's pretty bad.

[42:48] We got the truth seeker established back in grail. Yeah. Right. Like that was a big thing for that. And in a way, like I think when Sinclair becomes Valen, he set her up for this, right? Like, and it's that whole causality thing. Like it's what he experienced. And so it's what happened. But he puts the pieces in place to say, hey, this is going to happen. This is going to happen. This is going to happen. And it's her that does it. And then she steps up like with the shadow war. And I think a key moment with the clans was in atonement when basically she goes into the dreaming, comes out and gets them to bless the union with Sheridan. Or basically, you know, call it a concession or whatever, but also kind of calls out the other clan leaders. I'm like, hey, turns out you guys are super racist and dumb and we're already diluted for stuff. So like she's got some stuff over them. And so I think in a way too, they're all like, well, she's awesome. And we better defer to her. Otherwise she's going to out us for being incompetent and dumb. Jeff, did you have anything else you wanted to talk about that you pulled out of this episode? I think we covered it all during the watch. I got one. Okay. One thing. And this is, this is still kind of raw. It's not fully baked. It's not fully worded exactly how I'd want to say it just yet, but go with me on its infancy. Maybe you can help me shape it a little bit. This comes off of what Dylan or I'm sorry, what linear was saying about Dylan, to the rest of that, that cast back there. Right.

[44:12] And he's just, he's like, she sees the world as we should be. I would rather much live. I would much rather live in that world. Like she doesn't see it as it is, or she doesn't see it as you guys really are. She's like, that's the aim we should get to. And I just, I kind of have this thought of maybe we should elect as our leaders, the people who see the world as it should be.

[44:33] And then I put not so much as it is. We need people who see it as it is. We need reality type people, but we also really need people who can call us out to be better than we are. You know what I mean? Like we have to, you have to have that. And the job of a leader is to go, hey, here's where we are and here's why we can't stay here. That over there is a good place to be though. Let's go there and then work on how do we get to that point. But we have to have that person who is pointing to there, that person who's pointing the way. And we get very backwards when we swap that. But when you put the person who's going to tell us how to get somewhere before the person who tells us where to go. And very rarely are those two the same people. I'll tell you, Jeff, I'm convinced. I'm utterly convinced the best way, absolute best way to run a business is.

[45:28] Is not with a president or a chairman of the board or a CEO, but is a two-headed monster, a two-person. You have a person who is that visionary, that creative person, that person who can give us ideas of where to go. And then you have to have right next to them, the person who can figure out how to get there, the money person, the reality person. You've got to have both of those sides and, and, uh, for, for no other organization can I point to for this that I can point to the Disney organization. Yep. And you've heard me say this before, but you know, when Disney started, there's a reason it was the Disney company. It wasn't the Walt Disney company. It was the Disney company because it was the Disney brothers. You had Walt, you had Roy. They were both equal in the company. Walt was the creative guy. He was the visionary. He was the one who wanted to go do stuff. Roy was the money man. And he was the one who figured out how to get there, right? When Walt died and it just became Roy, when, and Walt pulled away from a lot of things in those latter years of his life, the company started going down and the company almost died.

[46:35] Until in 1980-something, they hired not just a new CEO, but they hired a new person to go along with him and Michael Eisner and a guy named Frank Wells. And they became that two-headed monster yet again and brought the company back out. And when Frank Wells unfortunately died, tragically died, and it was left to Mike Eisner, things kind of wallowed for quite a while. And we can talk about modern Disney history later. But in this situation, like to have somebody who can be there as a person going, no, no, this is where we should, this is where we, here's what, okay, I'm going to pick my own country because I'm hearing, here's what America could be. This is where we could go. This is, this is the promised land of what we could be. I think that's why a message about making America great resonates with so many people. Now, what is the definition of great? We can have a debate about that. But I think that's why that type of an idea resonates with so many people because we can, man, we want to get there. We're not there right now and we want to get there. I have a whole episode of the Starfleet Leadership Academy on exactly this. Do you really? What episode is that? So it's one of the Discovery, Star Trek Discovery episodes. I forget exactly which one.

[47:52] And I talk about enrolling others in your vision is the, like, if you want to go on and search for it, you can look at that at jeffakin.com. If you want to check it out or anywhere you get your podcasts. I talk about one of the challenges of being that visionary leader is you have to live in two places at the same time. You literally have to exist in more than one place. I have to exist in that future state that I want to create. And this can be society, business, family, whatever. But I have to exist there. I have to know what it feels like, what it sounds like, smells like. I need to know it intimately. And I need to be able to describe it in a way that makes it, uh, alluring to people, you know, or, or, or attractive. I also didn't have to live in the present because I will never get people to come to this future.

[48:39] If I'm not with them here, it's a whole meet them where they're at, you know, kind of a trope. Go there and then talk about your vision. Enroll people in it. Share it. Also, adapt your vision as you learn more and hear from other people. You know, like no one single person is going to have the perfect idea. And it's just, I mean, it's how you do it. And I think one of the key differences, between the leaders that we – the elected leaders specifically that we've had for the last substantial amount of time –, And this vision of a thing is it's that future state is clearly defined. I can tell you what it feels like, looks like, smells like, sounds like. I can tell you all those things because I'm there and I can make it what you want, you know? And so then you also know when you've gotten there. The challenge as a leader is that's not mission accomplished, right? There's always the next and the next and the next and always having to live in those spots. But to your point also, you need to have, and there's some stuff in the council chambers chat saying the same.

[49:46] The C-suite mentality that we have, a CEO, COO, CAO, CFO, ABC, FYG, XYZ, YYZ, all these things are built for that, but we've created a hierarchy out of it where, well, you have all these things, but this one is the one on top of it. The CEO is still the top guy. Exactly. There can be no top person that have to be truly equal. And that involves sharing power. And that's the thing that we're not super accustomed to doing. Awesome pull out of that. Well, Brent, this week, as we continue our years-long tradition of, objectively ranking these episodes correctly, like the correct ranking of all of them, both the first time and the second time around, And it is your turn this week to do that ranking. And I have no idea, no idea where to pull this one in. So I'm going to kind of pick a spot here. Randomly and go up from there i'm going to start it uh, let's start at number seven and seven we've got falling toward apotheosis six is the summoning five the hour of the wolf and four whatever happened to mr garibaldi and the number three one we've brought up here is atonement, brent where does rbl lie in this ranking you know, i remember when we first went through uh.

[51:08] Babylon five and we got into season four and my, my overall memory of the season is the first bunch of episodes, phenomenal, the last bunch of episodes, phenomenal. And then there's this middle ground where it just kind of like you knew plate pieces were getting put in place, stuff was happening, but it also was very kind of, I don't want to say meh episodes. Cause that's not it at all. They're good episodes, but it's just, it's, it's not the push, push, push, push, push. And then people are like, Oh, well, we can't have that every single episode. And you're right. You can't, you've got to have the episodes where you're moving the pieces and putting things around. And this is one of those episodes that really feels like things are happening. It's not a blow me out of the water type episode, but it's not a bad, I will watch this episode anytime it comes on. Super fun. Exactly. Right. Like I enjoyed myself watching this episode. So, but also I find that's true of pretty much most episodes in season four, right? Yeah. So where do we go? And I'm, you know, we're at that spot in the season where I'm trying to remember what happens in each episode, like by the title, you know? Yeah. So.

[52:25] I'm looking here. I think you're in about the right spot. It just strikes me that those first six episodes are split right now. Like we got into the fire up front. We got the long night, but then it's split. Like there's atonement. And then you have whatever happened, Mr. Garbaldi. You got hour of the wolf. And we have something in it falling towards apotheosis kicks down. You have illusion of truth. I really liked illusion of truth. I like illusion of truth a lot. I always have. I always liked that episode. That to me, I think is where the line kind of draws.

[52:56] And I feel like I could put this anywhere in five, six, seven or eight and I'd be okay. Like he could go in any, it just, it's in that realm of, of things where we are. So I'm going to stick it right in the middle, objectively right in the middle. This is going to become our new number seven. Okay. Just because it falls in that range right and i think all of those episodes kind of kind of that's that's just where we are you know you move one up or down, okay that's not wrong either and i that's where we are that's the objective correct way to put this in there in a real way you can probably say this for almost all of the seasons you can take the top four and the bottom four and say these are awesome and these aren't everything else in the middle they're great, like awesome great and not so great that's it Yeah. Occasionally you have, that one was okay. That one was pretty good. I didn't hate it, but you know. A lot of time, Beau, on rumors, bargains, and lies, or RBL, as I probably should have came up with earlier. It's a lot easier to say. It's kind of like saying JMS. It's just easier. It just rolls off the tongue a little more smoothly. Right. Next week, we're watching Moments of Transition. It's where the Minbari Civil War wraps up.

[54:06] Do you remember what you thought about this one kind of what your overall feelings were i remember being absolutely shocked that the entirety of a minbari civil war was reduced to two episodes, like because i thought this was going to go on because the way they the way they set this up, we've been watching jms for three and a half seasons now he does not do short little things like there was voice in the wilderness there was war without end this does not feel like a part one part two this is effectively a part one part two for for for season.

[54:34] Four you know you could you could we we could turn around and record next week's episode right now and not miss a beat i but that's the biggest thing i remember i, did mention earlier i think what naroon says is kind of cheesy but what happens how we get there all of that sort of stuff man it's it's just excellent and watching because dylan, after that is done actually reforms the great council into the new membership thing right that that happens in this episode that it's just, it's brilliant. It's phenomenal. I remember our discussion with, That we had surrounding that about the idea that the the military and the clergy of a society exist to serve the population, not to have the population serve them. And so often throughout human history, we flip those things on their head and military and clergy account for maybe about 10, 15, maybe 20 percent of the total population. And so they shouldn't have equal weighting on the Great Council. That actually is a mistake by Sinclair Valen. Shouldn't be like that. That's the band-aid we talked about earlier. Hey, this will just make things cool for a minute. The idea that those powers should be subject to the – there's a concept, Jeff. Powers should be subject to the will of the people that they're supposed to serve. What?

[55:53] That's what I remember. I remember having a great discussion about that. And I really – that was probably one of my more favorite discussions that you and I had coming off of an episode of Babylon 5 for the first time. What do you what do you remember jeff i remember that that like the the meat of the episode we were really into i actually, remember not caring for the episode overall i think i was pretty upset with like that's that's the civil war like this week we get like some beautiful footage of where she-ra grew up and then we get some smoke overlaid and it's like this is the end of everything and the next week like it's just done i remember being pretty upset about that but yeah i think that the substance of it all, was, I mean, look at the conversations we've had now, and it's just paving the road for what.

[56:40] Is coming in next week's episode. And so we'll find out exactly what we thought about it and what we think about it on a second watch right here next week. I'm excited for this. I'm excited for all of them. I always say that. But thank you for joining us for this. This has been a longer conversation that we've had on this one. There's a lot to dive into. So thanks for being a part of it with us. Don't forget to subscribe. Wherever you're watching us or wherever you're listening to us, leave us a rating, leave us a review. All those things are awesome. If you're on YouTube, comment, get in on the conversation and all that good stuff. If you want to be of support to the podcast and you also want to get more of the bad nerds of Brent and myself, we have a ton of content over on our Patreon page. There's a link down in the show notes. At our Council Chambers tier, you get invited to be a part of our recordings. They're with us right now. We brought up some of their stuff during the record itself. would love to have you here with us as well. So until next time, I'm Jeff. Hey, Jeff. Yeah. What's up, Brent? Hey, Jeff. I got it. I got it, dude. It's great. What do you got? So good. What is it?

[57:47] Dude, you're into it. What is it? Well, I can't tell you. You can't tell me? Well, I'd like to, but i really can't there's there's there's really nothing to tell but clearly there's something to tell if you if you can't tell me then who can i, no one there's really nothing to tell man yeah obviously i'm initiating getting the hell out of here maneuver, i mean we're not some some deep space franchise the station is about something, ben says it best i i was i would like to quote but go ahead i think we're seeing it No joke happened today in episode four by 13.