Moments of Transition | For the Second Time

[0:44] The year is 2026. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And my name is Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, and then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed. So now we're watching this incredible series for the second time, because Babylon 5 is a series that you get to watch for the first time twice.

[1:14] And for the first time in the second time, we are looking for the sci-fi messages that are contained in the series. What's JMS trying to tell us, or what are we just pulling out of the episode that maybe he didn't really intend to tell us in the first place. It's just what we gathered from it. You know, we're, we're looking for things that hold up a mirror to society, give us hope that things can be better in the future, or maybe just tell us how to be better human beings to one another. Now, that being said, Jeff and I have seen this show all the way through. We did an entire first watch that was completely spoiler free. Thank you to the bubble who kept us safe in the middle of that. And we are here to tell you that is the best way to experience this show for the first time for yourselves. So that being said, if you have not watched the show all the way through, we are going to ask you to stop this recording right now and go check out our first time watch where that is completely spoiler free. And then once you have gotten through the series yourself, catch back up with us here because from this point forward. Anything from any point in the timeline, anywhere in the franchise, in-universe, out-of-universe, it is all fair game. Bear in mind, this is your one, only, and final spoiler warning.

[2:23] As we dive into the episode, Moments of Transition, we watched this the first time. We played a game where we predicted what every episode was going to be about based on its title alone. Brent, what did you predict this episode was going to be about? So I said that this was going to be a continuation of the Civil War. In no way, shape, or form, Jeff, did I think that this was going to be the end of the Civil War. So my prediction was we just had to further take the next step, right? And what would that next step be? Well, we just saw Naroon talking to Shaqiri at the end and going, oh, is he double agent or not? And I said that it would be proved that Naroon, was actually still a bad guy. He was going to double cross to Lynn. He's a double, triple agent, whatever the math is on that. And basically he would work with Dillon, reform the Great Council, and then he would do something really sneaky to seize control. And Naroon would be the guy who seized control of Minbar, of the Minbar government. And that would be the next step in the Minbari Civil War. Not that it would draw it to a close. That was my prediction. Um, yeah, yeah.

[3:29] Pieces. Pieces. Yeah. How about you? What would you say? Well, you got pieces. Let's see what Jeff got. I think where the civil war is going to end in this one. And a moment of transition is going to come up in Naroon's choice on how he's going to bring everyone together. I think Naroon is going to renounce his warriorhood and become religious caste. Nailed it yeah i don't i don't have a sound drop on my board over here that goes shenanigans i call shenanigans.

[4:04] No sir just a sore loser that is too specific you cheated come on jeff it's been it's been years at this point you can tell us the truth no i did not cheat this is funny though because tell us the truth because that that is, so specific brent nails it and he's like i'm the king baby i nail and he's like shenanigans no way you could have done it no i fully that i i because i think even the first time around coming out of last week i was like naroon is, he's legit like he has seen the other side.

[4:37] Dylan says that i predicted something else it just wasn't part of my official prediction i don't know what that is hopefully we'll find out what that is here in just a moment i do i will say this i i do like katarina's um katarina on our council chambers who's joining us here, uh says that this episode definitely gives us hope that civil war can be finished in just two episodes, that's good hope for these days yeah yeah i appreciate that one way way way much so jeff why don't we find out what dylan's talking about and take a look at what we actually said yes first time around let's do that, Previously on Babylon 5 for the first time. Moments of transition. I want a friend like Zack. He's a great friend to Garibaldi. He's a great friend to Lita. I think he is a better head of security than Garibaldi was. If I could kick off our whole discussion about Garibaldi and Lita and Bester and all of this. Chekov finally gets to record a log. And in that log, he basically tells us that he's the guy who programmed Garibaldi. Yes. And it's going well, according to Grant. I think Bester might be William Eggman. No! When you take the emotion out of it and you just look at the deal itself, badge, gloves, 10% to the core, give up your body when you die from natural causes, you get to rock and roll, do whatever you want to do. For the rest of your life. But no, I thought it was a good deal, but I also understand the trauma associated.

[6:06] For Leto, that last scene with her, rang, rang, it was pretty heavy, does a heavy scene, naroon has certainly been impacted by delin he also is acting as a double agent and now that he's in with his boss doubt is really beginning to creep in and you know who he reminded me of, Darth Vader, once the Emperor starts talking to Luke, and he's kind of doing that like second guessing what he's doing. And I think that when Shaqiri started monologuing, not only was he disappointed in what he said, but he was absolutely just disgusted with it.

[6:40] I still think though, that Naroon specifically doesn't care about warrior caste or religious caste. Naroon cared about Minbari. Okay, so let's talk about reforming the Great Council, Jeff. Hold on, Well, I just take the clip from last week and drop it in here. You know what needs to happen is like the religious cast and the warrior cast need to like shove off. And the worker class just needs to be in charge for a while. Brent was absolutely right. His crown rests safely on his head. I don't know that I really expected that to be the way it went down. This is a great outcome. We talked about it at length last week. It's the workers. They build. Delenn said it well. They build. They create. We destroy. So the ones who are building and actually enriching our society are the ones who need to tell us what direction. And she said this. She said this. We exist to serve them, not the other way around. That is exactly what is true. Shenanigans.

[7:43] No. Give me my crown. Look at me. No. You see, I am the king, baby.

[7:50] It's in the theme song. Mike can't argue with that. Well done to Lynn. Well, I love the glitch. You put the clip in. That's great. That's great. That's great. I forgot this was that episode with Bester and Lita. If you would have told me that Bester was actually in this episode, you would have knocked me over. I had no idea. Yeah, I totally forgot. We said it in the recap and I was like, wait, was Bester in this episode or were we just talking about him as if he was something? No, he's in the episode. He is. Yeah. Well, what do you say? We go get our second time impressions now and watch the episode. I think we should do that. Awesome. Well, what's going to happen in this moment right now, we're going to watch the episode. Like I just said, we're going to bring it up. You, you, you, and you, not, not you, but all the rest of you are going to watch it with Brent and myself. Brent and I will comment on it. We'll pull out any messages and stuff kind of as the, the show is going on for YouTube. We'll edit that up in the reaction video style that you see so often.

[8:54] We do post the full and the unedited version, which, I mean, has some, what you see here is quite polished compared to. Has a lot of rambling in it, for sure. Yeah, and some really great stuff that might just might not be okay for YouTube. Truth. Sometimes. Anyway, you can see that if you subscribe to our Patreon. It's patreon.com slash. Bad nerds. And if you're listening to us on the audio podcasting app of your choice, no worries. You're going to hear everything that YouTube folks are hearing because we're going to have all the conversations in the middle of the video anyway. And we want you to know exactly what's happening. And we'll still meet you on the other side where we'll share all of those thoughts about the messages that we uncover. So Jeff, let's do a thing. Let's do that thing. Give me a moment while I make this transition. There. Did that work for you? Well done. Fine. Accessing file.

[9:51] What the hell is it with this place? I can't get just one solid night's sleep. Incoming message from Mars sent by William Edgars. Do you wish to receive? Yeah, put it through. The packages contain advanced compounds for my pharmaceutical research department. He's talking about whatever he's going to do with the side people. Right? Yeah. This is a civil war, Brent. this. I like all of these people are congregated in this one little area. The rest of the hall is completely empty. In this one little area with no damage to it at all. And by all of these people. Okay. That was actually a really good. The way they did the camera shot there, it made it look like there was all of these people who were there hurt and injured. But then they gave us the wide shot and there was like six of them. Right. You know, these are the same people that kicked her out. At some point, aren't you be like, Hey, what's what you all wanted? I mean, Dylan, Dylan ought to be out there being like King George from Hamilton. Be like, you'll be back soon. You'll see. You'll remember you belong to me.

[11:03] She's all spittling and everything. Right. Oh my gosh. That's so gross. It's a fun lesson though. In that, like that, how he plays that handling mics is disgusting. I was listening to an interview with the A2 on Hamilton on Broadway the other day. The A2 is the person that handles all the microphones for the actors. And she was talking about how they have to go do a sweat flick throughout the course of the show, which is basically, when sweat that these actors have drips down their microphone and gets on the little thing and then travels to the thing. And then all of a sudden it sounds like they have to go in and they literally flick the end of the microphone to kick the water out.

[11:48] So that it's so gross from Centauri prime, Narn and she's nervous. So scanning alien minds doesn't buy re-entry in the workforce is a hard thing to do. Any of us enjoys it, but you get used to it. Of course, we'll have to run the usual background checks, get authorization from psych or, but well, that might be a problem. I'm not with the core anymore. How can you operate on Babylon five? Well, I'm operating here under a kind of special dispensation from captain. How can you operate here on Babylon 5 if you're not with the Psycor? Well, perhaps you heard about this thing that happened last year when we broke away from Earth. Right. Yeah. And we declared independence and we're no longer under those rules or special dispensation from the capital. You know, let's talk about that for a second because it's going to come up as the episode goes on. Sure. This is sloppy by Sheridan. And let's pretend we never saw this, but let's pretend that there was a conversation between him and Lita where she's like, I got to go back to work, man. Like, I got to make some money. And he's like, hey, not be with psych or is going to be a problem. What do you say we create some sort of certification and just say you're Babylon 5 certified and you're fine? Here's your card. Go get a job. Instead of her having to be like, man, the captain said it's OK.

[13:07] I'd be out. This employer is correct. Lita did an excellent interview, but the moment she's given this shoddy excuse, which is true. I can't do business with somebody like that. I love the fact that you're just like, let's just create the certification. We'll call it good. Why not? Do you know what most certifications are, Brent? Made up. Just someone said, this is the thing. But his word doesn't exactly carry a lot of weight back home right now. Oh, so she did hear about it. This is very disappointing. She didn't need to do that, though. No.

[13:47] I'm going to apologize for this next bit, particularly to our audio listeners who will have no idea what I'm doing because this is going to be visual. So Lanier walks in and what's the whole Mimbar thing that they do? They do like this thing, you know, whatever that is. Yeah. Dude just walked into Shaqiri and was like, boom, like the sideward T and like just walked in. I want to start doing that, man. And just walk in. Walk in and be like, President Scrooge! It's like, no, man, no, your hand's supposed to go in your elbow pit. Not there in your forearm. They do it a little bit different in Mimbar. They assumed they were our equal in all things. They have now learned otherwise. Yes. You can see how uncomfortable he is. About the course. Is it wrong to value life i thought that is why we fought we fight because it is our nature, it is the calling of our heart life and death are simply two possible consequences both equal neither value nor fear what what is the religious caste value um.

[15:05] Religion, whatever they're well seeking truth right some of them right some of them the seekers of truth do well they're supposed to right like cassandra and the others, i i find this is a very um this is a very interesting conversation here well done jms you're once again a master writer we know we know how this episode ends jeff.

[15:31] Right with well at least we know well we don't have the episode But we know how Naroon's story ends. His final words of, I was born for your guests, but now I see the true calling of my heart is religious. Right? So here we are at the beginning of Naroon's journey in this episode, and we're talking about calling him a heart. We're calling it out here.

[15:51] This is the bookend, right? We're opening up, and he says, he goes, is it wrong to value life? I thought that's why we fought. And Shaqiri's answer is, no, we fight because it's our nature. We fight because it's the calling of our heart and naroon certainly looks like he's questioning stuff here am i really fighting because it's the calling of my heart i thought i actually had another reason to fight i thought i had another principle, is that like you just sort of i'm interpreting this in his face i'm assigning a motive to him, is what i'm doing but i find it very very interesting life and death are but consequences i don't disagree with that statement at a high enough level a thing happens you either live or you die like you move up high enough and yeah, he's not wrong. That's the same thing that says all statistics are 50-50. You do or you don't. It's the same type of thinking. But it's a really dangerous way of thinking when it's like, it's, I'm going to pull a Brent. It's like the Jem'Hadar. When they go into battle, they've already died and they're fighting to reclaim their life. If they don't, they already died. So it's okay. It's just a consequence. And while that works for the Jem'Hadar, that doesn't work for most other species out there. Exactly.

[17:05] What it does ultimately is fully devalue life completely. It's only a consequence.

[17:13] There's no value to it whatsoever. And what we're seeing here is we're seeing two Mimbar warrior cast people have a conversation. Ah, it's just a, it's just a consequence. And here's Naroon in his head, potentially going, no, it's more than that. It's more than just, yes, life and death. It, when stuff happens, things come down. Those are the two outcomes. That is a consequence, but it's more than that. And Naroon understands that. And Neroon gets that and to see somebody who's supposed to be his leader, reduce it to that has got to be disenfranchising and heartbreaking i gave my i i believed in this i've backed this and you're just going to reduce it to something like that and that's not actually what we believe that's not what my actual calling my heart is.

[18:04] It's such an interesting piece of showing where naroon's thought process is, now compared to where he's going to end up because even as his actions determine he's going to live here in this bit, we see the internal processing up top already. We talked about calling of your heart back when Delenn used that. And you were like calling your heart. That's just an excuse now where you can do anything. And that's exactly what we're seeing here. And I think part of what Nerun is experiencing is a Shaqiri that might be the calling of your heart, but you don't get to say what the calling of my heart is or our hearts are. Can I actually double down on what I said earlier? Yeah. You saying that fighting is a calling of our heart and life and death are just consequences. Either one is fine. That is what you're using to just excuse what you want to do. Because what I know is there is more to life and death. It means more than just a consequence because it's the calling of our heart. This is actually something worth protecting. This is something worth fighting for. This is something worth dying for i think it harkens back to uh lorien and and sheridan i'm not asking you what you would die for i'm asking you what you would live for yeah right and i think that even there delineates there's a difference between dying and living maybe that's a real, babylon five theme that we've never really uncovered before yeah keep waiting what, what is it i thought you should see this.

[19:33] This that's so soon mr bester seemed like forever.

[19:41] Where's the package? What package? Some guy handed you a package back in customs. Where is it? I don't know what you're talking about, Zach. Oh, by the way, I like the suit. It kind of reminds me of the one I used to have. Okay, now that's enough. There's a rumor going around that you're working for William Edgar's. Helping him get stuff through here without any questions being asked.

[20:02] I kind of can't blame Garibaldi because Zach came at him sideways. Yeah, it came at him hard. But also, Garibaldi went way off cuff there, too. Does leta know he's there did they just have a little i think so i said i don't want to talk to you i heard you a little handshake loud and clear, extremely loud and clear actually but what about poor leta alexander, how does she earn a living why wouldn't sheridan just bring her on staff right outside of the fact i know that in general they don't like side people around but They had Talia for quite a while. What's wrong? Because Bester's bringing up some really good points. He is. For as much as I said during the first run, and I still stand by every word that I said, that they don't owe Lita a thing. Because what Lita did during the war, that was a galactic war. That was everybody's in. She didn't just come do a favor for them so they could win and help them out. She was a part of all of that. I would think that she was also close enough to Sheridan, Ivanova, Zach, somebody who'd be like, Hey, she's going to have some issues now. She's got some stuff going on. She's, she's sort of this orphan. And they'd be like, Hey, we actually could use that. Like we could bring that in and at least help provide maybe not necessarily. I didn't get it. They have very limited resources. They can't just go be hiring everybody. Like I get that part, but.

[21:32] I do feel like they morally maybe should take care of her, even if morally they're not obligated to. And it could be Harry to bring on staff and let you stay in your apartment. It could be we're going to make up a certification so you can go get a job. It could be anything. They just dump her. They don't even dump her. They just leave her. And I mean, like, so this is when when are how far away are we at this episode removed? Council Chambers, help me out. How far away are we removed from end of the fire timeline-wise? Six months? Maybe not even? Maybe two or three months? It says five episodes later. Not five. I can't do math. Eight episodes later? Okay. So we're maybe two or three months-ish? Sure. Yeah. That neighborhood. You know, there's a lot of stuff that has to happen immediately following all of that. I mean, they got to figure out income streams. They've got to figure out all of how are we going to operate now? What's going to happen? Where, where is all this? So maybe Lita hasn't been at the top of the list yet, but still like, I just, I figure she would have enough access to command that there's a plight that they can help out with. And they should. Agreed. Well, there is just no delicate way to say this. I want your body.

[22:55] This is a great way to say it. Are you out of your mind? That's a great way. That's a very funny question to ask a telepath. Now, in case you're worried... It's your standard boilerplate contract for your body. Clause 14 stipulates that this contract shall be null and void if you die from anything other than natural causes. Oddly, this is how I got my wife. I'm certainly taking a risk. This isn't exactly a safe... I just told her I wanted her body. It sooner put a bullet in my brain. The personal and moral compromises Lee would have to make are extreme, but on paper...

[23:43] You know, he's in that weird spot. Like I'm in this, this is me. This is who I am. I'm for this. This is, this is where my priorities are. Also, I don't know that I'm loving the direction we're going. I don't, I have some questions. I have some moral quandaries. I don't know. Have you ever been in that spot? You bottle up a lot of stuff because you are not safe to voice, to give voice to questions. You you internalize it because it it takes it takes a real amount of courage and a real amount of safety to even begin broaching that with other people and that's what naroon's he's like what about here and what like he's, he's internalizing a lot right now he's facing the thing i think a lot of us face in the idea of either or thinking, either it's this or it's that and that's it I don't think Nerun has it formed, but he's like, actually, neither of these things work. Like, the Great Council stuff didn't work. This warrior religious thing isn't going to work. There's something else, and I just don't know quite what it is. And so, yeah, like, he's just got all this stuff and probably doesn't have the words yet. I was just having some dinner, if you'd care to join me. I can't. Is this where he kicks her out of the apartment? At the same time. Smells great, though. Besides, I got business here. Yeah, I think it is. I think it's better I should do it than some stranger. Station resources want you to move to smaller quarters.

[25:07] I i just got this place fixed up until last month this place was paid for by the vorlon yeah last time that we saw her she had a bed regular income and some ikea bags station needs every credit we can get our hands on i'm sorry i bit your head off, you're right i'd rather hear it from you than somebody else.

[25:27] We got robbed of not having a Zach-Leader relationship. I've got a favor to ask you. It might even help you out a little in return. I'd like to hire you for a job. Let me get this straight. You want to hire me to find your dog? That's right. And my cat, too. Uh-huh. I'm out at that point. Your cat? No. If that cat wants you, it'll find you. And guess what? It doesn't want you. She's no longer bound by the core, the rules and the values. Except she is it's exactly what you were saying like there are the things we're taught and then and ingrained and there's the things that we can, uh break move forward from those are the things we don't but the question is is she right like is that a value that telepaths should have the idea of not scanning anybody against their will, violation of privacy all that sort of stuff that is right that that is proper you know i think so um, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do didn't you feel like zach should have just been like well, you could move in with me right this is you should have been like you know i used to live in those f f series quarters i mean they're pretty nice they're intimate.

[26:38] I'm living in c quarters right now i don't know if you want to go check them out but i got room i could knock on a wall just knock down a lot more in a wall, i see i just started working for this client who has me bringing him stuff in on the sly. Now, he doesn't want to get noticed, and neither do I. But the problem is, when you don't have a lookout for someone who wants you back... He's a poet. I didn't even know it. What I need is someone who can see around the corners. You're no longer worth my attention. Yeah, because you can't hurt me. Good day. Mrs. Alexander? You've been Asimov'd.

[27:19] I thought you were supposed to feel it when people scanned you. Not if you're good. It's a deep scan you're always going to feel. Stay out of my head! I don't know what you're talking about. What are you doing? Why are you doing this to me? Talk to me! Come on! Let me go! He scammed me! Come, on! Is that Jabba's palace? It looks like it. Instructions. yeah it's time if you're reading this i have just botched the surrender of the religious cast, intentionally do you speak for the whole of the religious cast delen i do it's good reverb and what message do you bring for us today the religious cast surrenders, This is literally what they were worried about in the first episode. Now we rebuild the Great Council into a warrior's council. Excuse me. I said that we surrendered. I did not say that we gave up our sovereign rights to form a new government. Dukat said that in every battle, one side or the other must surrender eventually. It is the natural order of things. There's no dishonor in that. No shame. So I just want to track this. Okay. Okay. And what she's saying is we'll surrender. Okay, fine. You want to go back to the way it was before Valen.

[28:42] Okay. So if we're going to do that, then let's do that. Here's how we did it back before Valen. Boom. Starfire wheel turns on. And the way they chose their leaders was two people got in the starfire wheel, creates a lot of pain. Last one standing becomes the new leader. They gom-jom-jom-ard their way to a leader. okay that's that's that's basically what glenn's thing is here she's like yeah sure fine we'll surrender whatever it doesn't matter this is how we're going to do it now if this is what you're doing like her argument is if you if you don't want to follow valen's path then we're going to do this the old way why does shakiri agree to that i was thinking the same thing and i think he does because the way the way that she's setting it up oh she she traps him exactly if he if he if Then it's like, hey, we surrender to you, but you're a wuss and you've lost all of the confidence of everyone because you won't do this one simple thing that shows. I said you're stronger than us. Our ancients did this. Right, they did it. I said you're stronger. You said you're stronger. Let's show them. Yeah, she's basically baiting them into it masterfully. Yeah, and she's rocking it, man. Death is merely a release from our obligations. Why then are you afraid, Sha'iri? Do you take their side? I speak for my people. Who do you speak for? And what are you willing to do?

[30:01] It is amazing what happens when lackeys hold their bosses to their boss's own words if only you have the cojones to do it.

[30:14] That guy didn't last long at all that's what she said, why is the lynn not getting out when you were aboard your ship when she proposed this the lynn told me she would leave the circle after he did why does she not come out, She's making her point for all our people, for the world.

[30:38] What, what, what point I'm going to die for you. So I'm at like, not only did I outlive him, I I'm actually going to die for you. Like is Dylan planning on dying here? She is, which people are going to get pissed. It's short-sighted would have been better. It's not helpful. It's emotionally driven. It's not rooted in any like wisdom and that this will help things in the council chambers yet being a martyr will help the cause. There is no leadership. There's no one else to fill the gap there's naroon but naroon's still like if she's gone it, all falls apart this is this is stupid i'll use the term this is toxic masculinity by delin look how tough i am honestly you know what it occurs to me this is the way delin typically operates, at least since doing the chrysalis thing at least since then well i mean this is how delin operates there is a big war that happened because she would do stuff like this too like you know what that, okay that was an emotionally charged heightened time that everybody made decisions and agreed yeah not just her so i'm gonna give her a pass on that one uh because she also very quickly came back and was like yeah maybe we should have done that, you're doing this to prove a point when actually you would be.

[31:59] More useful to be alive hey there's a message for you we need you We need you.

[32:09] You and I were talking earlier. Why does he stay in the light? There's no rule that says somebody has to die. There's no rule that says somebody has to sacrifice themselves. I almost want to go back and listen. I've been listening this whole time. The one who dies wins. No, it's the one who is willing to die. The one who stays in the longest is the one who wins. Not the one who gets in and stays there. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's the one who died. because it's not about the person it's about the cast which is also why as i say that why it's important that in this moment naroon converts because if he converts as a religious cast now the religious cast is in control, i am going to go back let's just let's let's let's do this, and they must honor the law set down variations the leaders of each warring cast would step into of the circle, the starfire wheel would open and its fire would begin to consume them.

[33:10] Those who did not deserve to rule, who would not sacrifice themselves as they asked others to do on their behalf, would escape the fire, the sacrifice of the one who remained, who believed so much in his cast that he would lay down his life for them. That would determine which cast would be dominant among us. Okay, so the implication there is the person who actually stays in the Starfire Wheel until they are consumed. Okay. The thing to add into that, though, is what Nerun says in a little bit where he's like, dude, we planned this. And the plan was for her to step out after Shaqiri wussed. Because the whole point, like what I was interpreting, is the person who stays in the longest, that's the person who would sacrifice themselves. They don't have to go through with it all the way. They're just, they're the ones who are willing to actually do it. So they step out and they now get to be a leader. So Naroon goes in. Apparently you can change cat. I mean, you can walk out and just be like, I declare bankruptcy and be bankrupt. Like that's how it works on men. Just declare it. Right. Like I'm now religious cast and all the power goes back to them. And Dylan's leader of the religious cast. She gets to be the one in charge. Pretty wild, dude. I'm just saying. which is why valen put a stop to it yeah that's pretty wild man so what told everybody naroon became the leader for a hot second very hot right.

[34:35] And said listen to her she's the person now so actually no it's not the person who says, i think this is a key thing in the in the piece the person who dies is not the leader the cast, becomes the leader and they likely have a process for determining who because the two leaders of the warring factions that go in one leaves one does not the one that does not win so, they got a great movie voice guy but he says follow her do what she says yeah he basically is dying words annoyance yeah it's interesting that he says the calling of his heart, Based on what we heard Shaqiri say earlier, like that has to sting for, I feel like Shaqiri handed him that line, that realization. He was like, how am I going to do this? Like, how do I show up and do this thing? And then Shaqiri's like, it's our calling of our heart to kill. And I can, I can understand where JMS in writing. This is like, he has to convert in order. Like I can understand his, his logical thought process of, of what happens. It might be a little less cheesy, but it's still kind of cheesy the way he, the way he, he did it. And honestly, Vickery, John Vickery. Yeah. I mean, he's standing in an empty room. He doesn't have a starfire light pouring on him. He's just acting, and they're going to fix it in post. And he's doing his best. They did not fix it in post. No. It did not translate. No.

[36:02] I mean, what's our number one rule, Jeff? Get a good recording. Yeah. Don't fix it in post and get a good recording. They could have used another take or two on this one. so um jms was asked if, naroon was truly religious and he responded that whether it was true or not he knew his actions would bring the cast back together, so out of respect for the dead it's best to leave the issue unresolved and accept his gesture for what it was now here's a thing i could get with this, no he wasn't but he knew that the future of his people could not be put in the hands of the religious caste or even the warrior caste. It had to be put in the hands of Dillon. And so what he went in, he did this, is what he had to say about, In order for it to go to Dylan and then Dylan would do what she would do. I can buy that. Yeah, I think you're right. I can buy that. It doesn't matter if he, if this is real about his heart one way or the other, it's what he had to do. It's what he had to say in order for Dylan. That's going to be my new headcanon to make this way more palatable. I like it a lot. And I think too, like our Dylan says, and we talked about this, I think just earlier in this, in this, watching this episode, sure would have been great. If he just said, I reject the caste system entirely and I'm doing this for all of Minbar. Yeah. I wonder if this was kind of his way. We have Delenn, who becomes the hybrid between humanity and Minbari, Minbarity.

[37:27] He kind of became the hybrid between warrior and religious. I am warrior caste. The calling of my heart is religious. I am both. So maybe he kind of got there. Hey, Minbar folk, you don't have to divide yourselves. Exactly. You can be more than just this one thing. You can be, you can be a person who is multifaceted. There can be more than one dimension to you. Yeah. Oh, there's a message for you. I'm still going with though. I don't, I like JMS, you know, out of respect for the dead, we'll just let his gesture be seen and be known. It doesn't matter whether or not he actually was converting or not. He did what he needed to do to get Dylan to be the leader. John Vickery is great and it was very popular. Yeah. And so he was, JMS was asked if we'd ever see him again. And, uh, will he see him again? Maybe as Mr. Well, And so in a response that was clearly before crusade was a thing, he said, no, no, not as that role, but we're definitely open to using him in other roles. Like we've done with Wayne Alexander big would have been cool. Although when they bring, when they bring Wells back, it's great. He's great. He's so good.

[38:37] Dillon, sunscreen, dear. Right? Here's some aloe. Yeah, right? I love that shot when they use that. That's so good. I have nothing against her personally, but as long as you are working for me, she cannot work for you. This is where I really thought Edgar's was Bester. It kind of has that vibe to it. I mean, a little voice modulation, but it kind of sounds like Koenig a little bit. And then especially here, where now he's watching it happen. Koenig. Personal log. By provoking Mr. Garibaldi, I've put him even further at odds with his former associates and further on the path I need him to follow. What I came here to get, I got even her. Guess you could call it a bank shot. I've had a nice day. That was great acting by Pat Tallman right there, just the existential pain. You're not yet fully healed. The other guests are waiting to see you. I can still see your skin cancer, for God's sake. Lay down. The more questioning may turn to fear. As soon as you enter, the record of this will be relayed all across Minbar. Point was made in the chat, but I love it here. She's got burns on her face, but her hair is fine. Let's get this over with.

[39:54] We will serve as is proper. Religion and war must act in the service of the people. Yes Not the other way around Yes, This place is reserved in memory of Neroon until the day it is taken by the one who is to come. Which is? That's Sheridan. David. Yeah, Sheridan's the one who will be, and then David's the one who will come. Katarina asked an awesome question. Is this Grey Council light that they're in meant to resemble the Starfire wheel? Like, is it a callback to the past that they had? I don't see it, but I could – like if we go back 1,000 years to Valen and he's calling them into this, thing that resembles this old Starfire wheel that was the last way they picked their last leader, and then this is just in Jordan, I could see that. But I don't necessarily see the connection. I just see – honestly, they didn't have the money for a set.

[40:54] Well, also the ones who were in the Starfire wheel that would be leading would be dead. Yeah. Although I do kind of, I mean, each one of them is kind of like their own individual little Starfire wheel to sort of look like that. So that's an interesting thought. You know what? That would be a neat like novel or comic book or something. Balin setting up the Great Council and dealing with, hey, here's the Starfire Starfire wheel thing. Well, you know what? Everybody needs. If you're going to lead, you have to be willing to be in the wheel. So we're going to put this in here as a reminder that you are in the wheel. You are burning yourself as a servant of your people. Yeah, you're here on fire. That would be really cool. And then over a thousand years, we really just kind of forget that that's what that is. It doesn't really matter anymore now. It's just a light and it saves us money on budget for a set. Yeah, I like that. So I like that. I'm going to go. Yes, Katerina. I changed my answer to yes.

[41:55] I like how she just pieces out, too. This isn't about Delenn. Which, hey, Jeff. The strongest thing she could do is not be the leader at that moment. Yeah. I just need to take a moment and talk to one of the co-hosts of Babylon 5 for the first and second time. His name is Jeff. Sometimes, Jeff, Delenn's not only about Delenn. Sometimes she's really about, like, the Minbari as a whole and kind of the galaxy as a whole. And she makes really massive sacrifices to make that happen. And sometimes those massive sacrifices are very quiet, like her just setting it up and going away. I'm glad you said that because that Jeff guy has really been getting on my nerves. He's kind of a jerk. The thing is, though, he's not wrong. No, but it's how he says it. He just believes it. He's got conviction. I respect that about him. But he needs to be able to see both sides. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, I was in the- Bastards! Those cold-hearted rat bastards! Susan? When I heard about it, I thought it was just a rumor. I mean, we get so many of them. Oh, God, John, I just want to grab them and just... This is it! This is it! What? What is it? As soon as this destroyer came through the gate, the other ships identified themselves as commercial liners. They were carrying the sick and the wounded from where President Clark's been hitting them.

[43:15] My God. My God. 10,000 civilians whose only crime was trying to get out of the damn killing zone! If they get in our way, we'll knock them down. If they kill one of our ships, we'll kill three of theirs. And we keep going. We'll never slow down, and we won't stop. And God help anybody who gets in our way.

[43:38] So much for happy-go-lucky Sheridan. I don't know how I feel about that. He's not wrong, right? Like, three illegal orders, all this stuff. But, like, for every ship of ours they take down, we'll take down three of theirs. That sounds a little Centauri. I mean, that sounds a little... Everybody says that when they go to war, man. You know, the indiscriminate killing. For every one of our people you kill, we will kill 10 of yours or we'll kill 500 of yours. That's indiscriminate. For every one of our ships, we'll take out three of yours. As long as they're talking about the military vessels and not the civilian vessels.

[44:19] And I'm going to assume that's what Sheridan was saying. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt that he's not talking about taking out three civilian laden cargo vessels that he's talking about. About we're going to go in there with our warships and for every one of ours that they shoot down we're going to shoot down three of theirs military ships, fine that's what that's what they do and he said we'll give him a chance to defect like, he said the things i guess it just i think the way it was coming across like it was like i feel like when ivanova came in it almost felt like there was going to be a joke, like i can't believe this how dare they no respect look what they did to my nail was something well okay claudia's acting in that moment coming in trying to be, very overly upset while she basically was just punching her own hand, i just can't i i just never believed they would do watch this video like, It was, it was, she had to convey a lot in a very short amount. Oh yeah. And she had to, she had to turn this on, on a dime and it was.

[45:27] I don't know that anybody could have done it much better than only Claudia just did it. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not hanging this on her. I'm putting it on Ivanova because I think that Ivanova has become in a lot of ways, a setup for a punchline or a punchline. Yeah. And so when she comes in over the top like this, I'm waiting for, especially after this heavy thing we just saw with the Minbari, like there's a joke coming and it's like, oh no, oh my God, this is very serious. And so maybe just my reaction to Sheridan's reaction is like the, the difference there where it's like, oh, is this going to be fun? Oh my God, he's so mad. If she was able to have that same brrrr that Sheridan, that Bruce Boxleitner brought into that, maybe it wouldn't have been as much of a, whoa, I don't know how I feel about that. Yeah you know uh the pre the original pre-cancellation plan for this was for the minbari civil war to last a couple more episodes.

[46:21] The earth civil war was going to take about five episodes going to wrap about five episodes into season five interesting so knowing that they had to cross the finish line in just a handful of episodes they chose this to sew them together and just go from one into the other, that yeah because we're dealing with the fallout of the closing of p10 yep, yeah i i don't hate it, yeah i really don't hate it like it otherwise because otherwise it kind of, almost i i very much prefer it because, Things feel fairly dragged out to me right now at this point in the season. You know, like I know they're maneuvering. I know they're getting pieces set. I know they're doing all that kind of stuff.

[47:02] Let's, let's kick it back in. Now we're going to kick it back in. You know, I don't hate like you would love to see them get the original run and not have JMS loses notes to some hotel lady and whatever. But sometimes it works out. And I think, I think the compression probably helped a bit here. It's just my guess. I think the compression probably helped a bit. I think, I feel like I agree, but I agree through the lens of knowing what happens. At the time, the first time, I remember being very unhappy about all of this, and especially the Civil War. I remember, like, I didn't care for Endgame because I'm just like, what? And I thought you were nuts. I'm excited to watch that one because I just remember being like, this is it? We're just done. I thought it was great, but yeah, I understand. Yeah. Knowing where it goes. I'm curious to see how I, how I feel about it.

[48:00] What did you feel on this one? Anything else you want to bring up or do you want to, any messages you picked up in it? I mean, we talked about everything really in the middle of the thing. The biggest thing I get is it, the one that really, I think sticks out to me is, And Neroon talking to Shaqiri going, is it wrong to value life? I thought that's what we were fighting for. It's like, no, we fight because it's the calling. It's just because it's what we do. Right. Effectively. No, we're doing it just because this is what we do. Oh, wait, I thought we actually had a reason for this. I thought we had a principle for this. Nope. It's just what we do. Hmm. You know, like, no, there you. Yeah. That's, I think the one that I keep going back to right now in this moment is I'm kind of coming out of this, uh, this episode, I will say this, I think having been through it again, that talked through the ending a bit more, of what Naroon was doing and why he was doing and whether or not what he was actually doing was what he said he was doing verse outside of just making sure that Dylan is actually the one who gets to move on. I don't find this nearly as awful as I did the first time around. Yeah. I really don't. Like I find, I find this much more palatable, but I think I have to get there and I have to do some work in my own mind rather than just let the television show tell me what to do. I get that. Does that make sense? Um, which isn't a bad thing, but, uh, man, woman and otherwise show.

[49:26] Yeah, there you go. I, I will, um, I will stand by my statements on the first watch as a first watch reaction. And I will stand by my statements now as somebody who's had a chance to rewatch it and think about it and discuss it and look at it through season five lens. Yeah. How about you? Well, I think to kind of build on what you were just saying, I used to do a lot of work in process improvement, Lean Six Sigma, stuff like that. And I had a rule that when we were doing root cause analyses and like, hey, we do this thing. Okay, why do we do this? And various tools to get to it. And if we ever got to a point where the answer to why do we do this is –.

[50:06] Well, that's what we've always done. That gave us permission to scrap it and completely reinvent it because there's no actual reason. If you can't tell me why we do this, don't need to do it. Or you'll stop doing it and then you'll realize really quick why you do it, you know, because the thing will come up. And that's exactly what happened here. Shakiri's like, well, it's what we always do. It's what we do. Okay, then don't do it because you have no actual reason to do it. What I got out of this was what JMS kind of gave me when I was doing research on this one. I love it. Can't wait to hear it. Says Lita in this is meant to represent how a culture often treats those who fight for us after they are no longer needed. Turns out there's always money for wars, but never for the people who return from the war scarred, shattered and injured. And I think having that walking in and then some of the lines that came up during.

[51:01] The conversation with the land and everyone else, like, who is it that goes to fight in these wars? Everyday people, you know, not the people who have a problem with it. And I think this episode did a masterful job of showing how the elite at the top have their stupid whatever problems. They make that everyone's problems. And then a bunch of people who aren't even involved die. People who just want to live their life. They want to see the next episode of The Voice or they want to get their promotion, whatever it is, you know. But they have to go die for this thing that doesn't even matter. And then we don't value them when they're done doing all of that. I think this is a great like soup to nuts thing of how we handle war. The only thing that would have made it a better description of it is if they actually used Black Sabbath's War Pigs as the outro song. It would have been perfect. You know.

[51:56] It's a real thing that in real life, we should take care of those who have taken care of us. Whether that's we take care of our parents the way they took care of us, whether that's we take care of – Our teachers? Yes. Our public servants. That's what I was trying to – because it wasn't just public servants. I was trying to think of – because it's all of those professions, right? We take care of our public servants. And we should be taking care of them. We also take care of our veterans as they've taken care of us. Yeah. And that is right and that is proper. And there is a moral obligation to do so.

[52:38] I'm a pre-9-11 vet, which I think is a very different thing than a post-9-11 vet. Military became a very different thing. And I am very uncomfortable when people thank me for my service because of that. I'm just like, I stripped and waxed decks. Um, I painted. Like I, after nine 11, it changed and the people who choose to serve now, like it's truly scary, you know? And there's, there's a lot, I mean, yeah, wild stuff happening that that's awful also. And someone explained this to me once I'm like, Hey, you know, thanks, but whatever, like, no, you, whether you actually had to go into combat or whatever, you chose to say, I could have this life over here, but I'm not, I'm going to do this thing instead. And that's worthy of gratitude at a minimum. I get that. And that's the thing Lita doesn't get in this through her whole thing. She doesn't even get gratitude. And she really should. And she really should.

[53:36] And I think this is a failing on, it's really a failing on Sheridan's part. 100%. Now, correct me if I'm wrong. Doesn't Sheridan recognize that later on? I don't think he does. Or if he does, he does it like in distress. Like, fine, thanks. Like, he did great. I don't think he's ever like actually genuine about it, but I could be. No, but I mean, I mean, doesn't he real like, oh man, maybe if I would have taken like when she goes, you know, have cocked off with Byron and all that sort of stuff, she goes, hmm, I think perhaps if I'd actually taken care of her, this would not have happened. Like if he doesn't, I hope he does. Maybe it's in a novel somewhere. Yeah. I seem to remember it. Well, Jeff, uh, that is, that is our second watch here of moments of transition. We have one more thing that we must do, and that is to place it in our 100% completely absolutely correct definitive ranking of Babylon 5 season 4 for the second time. Jeff, I'm really curious. I have no idea where you're going to put this. I'm going to.

[54:36] I'm going to kind of do what you did yesterday or last week, I mean, and kind of drop it. I'm going to give our middle and we'll see if I'm anywhere near right. We have 13 episodes on the list so far. I'm going to start with our number nine episode, which is illusion of truth. Number eight is falling towards apotheosis. Seven, our last week's episode, rumors, bargains, and lies. Six is the summoning. Five is hour of the wolf. Jeff, is it in this range up, down? Where do you place it in our definitive ranking? The first place that my eyes went was the illusion of truth and not necessarily because of its ranking, but because of how we felt about that episode, what it did. And I think that this episode did also very heavy things in a way like –, We had questions coming out of illusion of truth. Was it this? Was he that? Like, I don't know. We had to, to your point, really be thinking people to connect the dots of that episode. And that's the same with a lot of the stuff in this one. But you did a thing a week ago that makes me have to jump up a little bit because you placed rumors, bargains, and lies at number seven. Yeah. Which I don't disagree with. Actually, I did disagree with. I would have made it number six, but whatever.

[55:51] But this was a better episode than rumors, bargains, and lies. Rumors bargains and lies was a fun episode and it was like we said last week you know it's like the last time we're going to see happy-go-lucky sheridan which definitely got hammered home at the end of this episode and so but but, summoning our the wolf what like that's where we get into just like oh my god babel on five so it becomes pretty easy at that point this becomes our new number seven right above rbl effectively you're saying this is the best of the, pretty good episodes yes top of the pretty good ones yeah top of the pretty good ones yeah yeah i'm for that dig it, well jeff that is going to do it for moments of transition next week we are watching by grap thaw's hammer, never surrender never retreat, Oh, no, I'm sorry. No Surrender, No Retreat. That is the episode. Jeff, what do you remember thinking about No Surrender, No Retreat? So you ran into this problem in the first six where you're like, what episode did this happen in? Like, it's all kind of one thing. And that's where I am now. Yeah.

[56:58] I talked about it a minute ago. I have an ugly taste in my mouth around the Earth Civil War. I remember liking how we got there and then being disappointed in how it ended. So I want to say that I remember this fondly. I think this is where we start picking up some of the defectors early on. We hit Proxima three, I think is the one. And, um, so I think, I think this is one that I, I liked, but I'm, I'm, I'm super curious to hear what comes up in the recap that Dylan put together. Because to me, this whole or civil war story bundles up in a way that I actually don't remember fondly. So we're going into episode 15 next week.

[57:36] That's, uh, eight episodes left of the season. that's quite a bit of a season left. Yeah. And, and I think you're right. I think this is where, uh, this season turns for me because, you know, my impression of the overall season is amazing beginning, kind of a lull, not a bad, not bad episodes, just a lull and then an amazing end of the season. And I feel like this is where that turns. You're asking me specifically what happens in next week's episode. I don't remember. Right. I mean, yeah, I couldn't, you could tell me this is the one they go after approximate three and this, that, and the other. Okay, cool. I don't I don't really remember but I feel like this is where that turn really happens and so I'm eager to jump back into it next week and, see what this episode is really about and and you know figure out why I feel like we liked this one so much or maybe be very disappointed because turns out we didn't like this one at all right I don't remember I feel like these ones are almost the best ones to look forward to because like just like the people watching at home we're like I don't know what's coming next, so you want to make sure that you have subscribed to our channel so that you don't miss this you got to be here for it uh, we thank you for being here it's awesome i love being able to share this with all of you uh subscribe leave a comment rating review do all that.

[58:55] You okay don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, stop and leave us a rating and review what are you doing and if you really want to be of service rent what you can do is share the show. Share the show with somebody that you know. What are you doing? Who loves Babylon 5. It's written right here. What are you doing? But I was born just a co-host, but now I see the calling of my heart is to be the host. The show is over. Listen to Jeff. I mean, we're not some deep space franchise, this station is about something.