Into the Fire | For the Second Time

[0:44] The year is 2026. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. I can't believe we have to do another one of these episodes. We're going to get through it. We'll be okay. This isn't like Walkabout or Exogenesis. More like Avalon. . And I'm Jeff Akin. Hey, did you know that Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters? We said that a couple times, once or twice. We watched Babylon 5 for the first time. That changed everything for us. So we're watching the series for the second time because Babylon 5 is a show that you get to watch for the first time twice. That's right. But we're still doing what we started out calling the Star Trek-y thing, but it's really more of the sci-fi-y thing where we're looking for messages within the series. So what are things that hold up a mirror to society? Give us hope that things can be better in the future and just tell us how to be better human beings to one another. Jeff, we've got a doozy on deck today, man. Kind of a big deal. This one. This is a doozy.

[1:57] It's a it's it. I remember watching this for the first time and I have constantly said and I maintain this. This is this next 45 minutes is one of the if not the single best hour of television i've ever seen in my life i'm very curious to see if that holds up today on our second watch i am too now before i get too much further into any of these other things i do want to issue jeff our full alert, spoiler warning for anyone out there who has not seen this show yet who's not seen this particular episode yet who's not seen this in this incredible series all the way through from start to finish This episode today is not for you because Jeff and I will be talking about anything. And we can talk about anything from any point in the timeline, any point in the franchise. It could be crusade, could be Babylon five, could be a comic book, could be a book, could be something that we heard at a con. It doesn't matter. It is all fair game for Jeff and I to talk about. So if you have not been through this entire series for yourself for the first time, stop this show right now. Go back and listen to our first watch. That was completely spoiler free. And then when you're done with that, you can catch back up with us here. That being said, you have been warned. My warning is sincere. Ignore it at your own peril.

[3:12] Brent, the episode you've referenced is called Into the Fire. We're watching it this week. Last time around, on our first time, we played a game where we predicted what the episode is going to be about based on the title alone. What did you predict for Into the Fire? The first time we were going through this, we were noting about this time all the comparisons to Lord of the Rings.

[3:34] And I just went full Lord of the Rings. I said basically what's going to happen is Ivanova is going to like go off in search of the first ones, right? We've been talking about that in the last couple of episodes. So she's often gone in the search of the first ones.

[3:52] Sheridan and Delenn and the entire fleet, the entire universe, they're all headed to Coriana 6. The Vorlons and Shadows are there. They've drawn the shadows there. And basically they're going to be fighting. It's going to be all out war. And things are going to look really hopeless. And then, you know, first light of the third morning or whatever it is, Ivanova and the first ones are going to crest the hill and they're going to come down and just obliterate. And I said, I said, both the Vorlons and the shadows are going to get dusted. They're gone, obliterated. I effectively predicted that this would be the end of the Vorlon shadow war. Okay. But it didn't happen the way that I thought it would happen. Right. at all, which means it's just an awful episode. Now we've got to get through it.

[4:40] How about you, Jeff? This is going to be the Shadows, the Vorlons, everybody else, and I said we'll have an 8 to 12 minute just battle sequence. That's going to be so much of this episode is just the space battle going on. It'll be intercut with Veer and Londo stuff on Centauri Prime, and I predicted that the episode would end with Londo being crowned emperor. He was just named prime minister, right? Yeah. You were about a season and a half too early on being crowned emperor. Just a little bit. Just a little bit. If I remember right. I remember going through it. It was like every other episode was like, he's going to be emperor now, right? Yep. This is the one. He's going to be emperor now. Right. Well, Jeff, those are the things that we predicted. I'm a little trepidatious. I am too.

[5:29] But should we take a look at what we actually said the first time around about this episode? Yes. Yes, and there's a chance that when we come out of this, Brent and I won't be here anymore because I may not be willing to show my face in front of the Babylon 5 community based on what we say next. I'm a little nervous. It's not that bad, Jeff. Okay, maybe it is.

[5:49] Previously on Babylon 5 for the first time. Into the fire. Jeff, hit that sweet magical button. Let's go. I want to talk about this episode so badly. There were places where I really thought Londo was fully embracing what it is to be Centauri. Yeah, I got definite, like, Cartagia vibes. He blew up on an island on his own planet. Let me just read you verbatim my note. The greatest scene in all of Babylon 5. Veer waving at Morden's severed head. Yes. No words. Speaking of Veer, he was awesome, though. He was so hard, right? In that moment when Londo's like, I got rid of the shadows, I got rid of them all. And then Veer's like, no, you didn't. And he's right in his face. When Londo sat back and went, you're right. Veer, you have to kill me and let them know. It does not redeem him, but it is the right thing to do. So the other part of the whole episode. The Battle of Corianna 6. So more of a mouthful than Wolf 359, but hey. So his strategy, right, was to bring them into the Crucible, put nukes on a bunch of asteroids around it. Do you remember, do you know where that strategy came from?

[7:07] That's how he blew up the Black Star. Part of me was like, brilliant. Also, you're doing it on a Minbari ship. So hot take. That was honestly, I was underwhelmed by the battle. I mean, I knew we weren't going to get a lot, you know? I mean, just because it's expensive to put that on. It felt to me like it almost ended on a stalemate to where the Shadows and Vorlons were like, well, we're not going to win this in space, so let's go talk to Sheridan and Delenn and then try and convince them. But that was exactly Sheridan's plan. They both asked, are you coming with us? Will we be alone? My heart broke. I love the spot where they said, what if the right choice is not to choose at all? What if we reject the idea that we have to decide which one of you is right? The answer to the question, or as Lorian said, Sheridan knows. We just hope he knows that he knows. If he listened to the 1979 record Permanent Waves by Rush and the incredible track Free Will on there, he would know that even when you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. The answer to the Shadows and the Vorlons is Rush.

[8:23] Right? The answer to the shadows and the Vorlons is rush. It's the answer to most things. And if it's not the answer to the thing, then the answer is 42.

[8:33] Veer waving at Morden. I forgot that happens in this episode. I did too. I did too. You were underwhelmed? Yeah. Yeah. Sir.

[8:42] Sir. Honesty is always the best policy, except for this case. Although what I remember though, is we were both a little upset with it because it was like, oh it's the first one oh whatever but did nothing i am looking forward to watching this though i have some stuff from jms kind kind of on that so all right well let's get into it then yep let's get in hey thank you for being here with us what's about to happen so we're going to watch the episode bring it up watch it comment on it all that good stuff on youtube it's going to be edited into one of those reaction style videos we have our full our unedited version of this available on our Patreon page, patreon.com slash bad nerds. And if you're joining us on an audio podcasting platform somewhere, don't worry. You're going to get all that audio because we want you to know exactly what we're talking about, when we're talking about it, and all that sort of stuff. And as always, you'll get the conversation on the back end where we do the ranking. We'll look at some messages and all that sort of fun stuff. And we'll have a whole lot of time poking fun at ourselves. A whole lot of time. We'll have a whole lot of a good time poking fun at ourselves and just marveling over what jms has said about this episode so jeff let's get into this one let's get into the fire accessing file white star nine break off the target their forward guns.

[10:03] All right this is a badass space battle it looks so good tactical squadron follow us.

[10:11] Dillon, frankly, should be in charge of her own white star. Yeah. Not riding shotgun on Sheridan's. It's kind of a precursor of things to come. Although we did litigate that she's not really a military person, probably shouldn't be doing that, but still. Make the jump to hide your space, Mr. Lanier. You put together a hell of a team, Dillon. You should be proud. Win or lose, we'll go down fighting. I love how he shares the credit there. It's not like I did this great thing. It's like, look what we did.

[10:42] So we've already seen here in hyperspace all the ships and everything they uh there are 114 fx shots in this episode seems like a lot usually there's about half of that uh there's actually quite a few things that they wanted to do a little bit differently but there just simply wasn't render time available to do them it wasn't a budget issue it was just a computer crunching computer and time you know that does speak for this kind of modern way where they film, uh the entire season and then edit it and put it together before they ever release the release the first episode like the whole thing's done for like a year before they ever release it which is wild to think about that right like there are shows that'll come out in like 2027 2028 this is 2026 as we record this yeah they're already on the shelf right now done yeah just waiting for their release date. I have enough to deal with it as it is without worrying about a knife in the back. Minister! Please! Sorry, I wasn't thinking. Felt very natural, though. Why are you still here? Go! Go! That's great! Do more then, and tell him the bad news. Veer's hair is especially large this episode. It is. Tell her to.

[12:04] But that seems to me a very undignified position from which to command one of the white star fleet. So in international translations that this came through, there were some, JMS said there were some very interesting interpretations of haul ass. Okay. And specifically, some Asian countries literally like were saying, so like the words they used were held their ass in their hands and ran. Like carried and hauled them.

[12:35] You know, I got to tell you, I've done a bit of translation work over the years from ancient texts into modern languages. And there really is a thing where ideally you would just be able to go word for word and translate it. Yeah. But so often you really have to translate the idea, not the actual words being used. Yeah. I just want to highlight how awesome Sheridan is here. Like what Dylan is saying makes perfect sense. like there's no reason to put these people at risk but sheridan's like yeah you're right and i made a promise right i just love that that matters to him i was told you were ready to leave this scene was actually filmed for the last episode supposed to be immortal but they didn't have time for it so they slipped it in here and it makes no sense because they were literally just on a white star forever ago and so far away but it's an important scene nonetheless my heart and i don't speak anymore yes you know when we think about the all-time great of on the lines i am god, right just kidding god right like the the i'm in the middle of 32 things and all of them are annoying that one's that one probably deserves a little more press than we give it me and my heart don't speak to each other me and my heart don't speak too much don't speak anymore we discovered the Vorlons and the Shadows when they were infant races and it nourished them.

[14:02] Them and we discovered the vorlons and the shadows and all the other races you call the first ones we helped them and nourished them i think that now begs the question how did lorion's race teach the vorlons and shadows to manipulate the younger races are they just doing as they were done too are these guys actually is lorion the actual main villain of babylon 5 wow wow is he the one who is in need of redemption, even more so than Londo Malari, that he is responsible for all of the death and destruction over all of the millennia and eons.

[14:45] Billions of years the universe has existed i'm gonna say yes and here's why it's completely speculative because you don't know what he means when he says that they helped them, but go ahead if if he was a good guy when they introduced him they wouldn't have all those red lights and ominous villain music and like the up lighting that makes him look all scary, so because of the way they lit him and scored him that means he's the villain of the entire show We've been subconsciously told he's a bad guy. So we have been trained and manipulated by filmmakers. Exactly.

[15:19] And you picked up on it. You're like, wait a minute. Turns out this guy's the bad guy. Lorian is the villain of Babylon five. Who knew? And he's right here. Just saying it. This is all my fault. Dude. He needs to get the hell out of the galaxy. He does though. Let's give him 35 minutes. We'll be all right. He just said something to go beyond the rim. and live in or find whatever is in the darkness between the galaxies. I've always taken the idea of the rim. Going beyond the rim is a euphemism for death, for ascension, for going to another plane of existence, for another whatever. But literally what he's saying, if we take what he said literally. We physically went to a different location. To just a location, and they're just hanging out in between galaxies. They're not in a new galaxy. they're just out there in whatever that is big void of space we went there so they're still there, they could easily come back i don't think it's a one-way trip well i don't know in star trek there was a galactic barrier it's a really big deal to get through it so maybe they can't come maybe it's a one-way door side note so a bunch of years ago we sent out a little space probe called voyager.

[16:33] Voyager not too long ago um or at least we got the signals crossed the uh the the border of the solar system got outside the solar system and do you know what it found when it got to the border of the solar system there's there's a barrier there there's a barrier barrier of solar particles from our sun that formed this sort of sort of wall okay that it had to had that it had to get through and basically it's just the idea of like you know when you have something that spins it pushes everything outwards it's it's basically just the the the particles that made it all the way out and they're just sort of hanging out there on they're literally on the outside of our of our it's the rim of our solar system it's the rim of the gravitational well of the sun presumably the galaxy going around a supermassive black hole would have something similar because it's we are a spiral galaxy milky way is it may be the greatest gift your race has ever received there's a longing in what he just said. Like, he's jealous.

[17:33] Not in a bad way, but just, like, he wants that. Her death by poisoning was preceded by rumors that you had attempted to poison Lord Reefer. Nia just said a great thing over in the Council Chambers chat. For those of you watching, we invite our Council Chambers tier subscribers to our recordings, and they get to comment on things and all that kind of stuff. But we talked about it last week, kind of from one scene to the next scene and the impacts they have. So we just heard Lorianne being like, you guys are lucky. You get to love people and it matters and it's cool and then we come over here and we'll learn about who Londo loved and essentially how that love was the fire that burned inside him right like this was his everything but if he was, a lorien or he'd be like i mean that's that's one there's gonna be another one and you know i'm i'm gonna reference what i mentioned i want to say it was in the last episode about when you're an eternal being you have to understand that that stuff like that comes in seasons of your life and you appreciate the season for what it is yeah in that moment and you you remember it you you appreciate the fondness of it and not get lost in the the loss of it the grief of it yeah the poison, The backlight of Londo in this moment. We found the dealer who supplied the wings there and stuff. Confirmed that it was slipped onto a starlight. Did we see this? Yeah. We witnessed this. He was doing the thing with the diamonds or whatever they were with that dude. Yep. That's what we watched, right? Was what he's talking about right now? Yeah. Go.

[18:59] Londo's not in the light anymore. The thought of Adira bathes him in light. Now he's in dark.

[19:06] He played me. He played me like a puppet. He busts the flowers that were still sitting in the light. He breathed me. Oh, God! Dude, his acting and then the camera work here. Feeling exactly what he's feeling like it's dude there's a there's a, choreography that had to happen between peter jorick and the cameraman yep so he killed rifa for nothing for morden like he was a pawn in that whole thing.

[20:21] So Lorian is Jamaican. war through force you must understand your way out of this everything's gonna be all right it's gonna happen when it's gonna happen just chill now, but what if he doesn't know that he knows that he doesn't know well i know that he does know that he knows but he doesn't know that i don't know that he doesn't but you know that i know that he knows that you know so what does that make us are you ready i think so stay open to anything you might pick up out there when you came after me at zahadoom you made contact with the shadows we'll need that advantage i'm paying attention to how he interacts with lita from this point forward because this all in season five culminates in the whole all you ever did was take from me now i'm going to go with this psychotic pancake of a cult leader over here because you don't appreciate me and like right here he's asking her to do a really big thing I just want to see how it kind of plays out. Again, I go back to this isn't a take, take, take. This is a we are citizens of the galaxy. It's all of us. All healed now I take it. I'm fine. His hair grew back. Fantastic. The hell is going on, Malar? Mm-hmm.

[21:43] I really wanted to hear a, Very satisfying dump. No! Just cold, just. That literally looks like a map of Italy, the boot of Italy with Sicily just flipped. They'll make sure Sintori Prime pays the price for what you've done here today. And they do. Not wrong.

[22:13] Think they're coming on your left and right and above you and behind you transfer player and control to my station mr lanier i like the fact he's going to be the one to press the morning gentlemen i wonder what the um and i i use this term understanding the problems with it i wonder what the ecological impact is of setting off nuclear weapons of this magnitude in space around koreana in the koreana system like not just in space but like inside of a planetary system right yeah because like you said there's motion there's movement those particles are going to move somehow they're going to get captured by other by other planet other bodies own gravity wells and different things like that are they all going to pull into the sun and just burn up is it going to add fuel to the sun like i'm i don't i don't know i don't know what the, actual are they just gonna it might just dissipate which is you know i think what we just assume happens here i think that's your paper you need to write i am personally interested in it though uh-huh i know welcome to the garden you'll see consider the gift go dude i'll join remember when cartagia made jakar a gift i was just thinking now he's making more than a gift, and we cheer this one but decry the other because we're sick i can't say the next word.

[23:36] Look centauri prime and light it's the last time they're going to see it like this for a long time i'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike.

[23:56] It's a man of his word you know yes we do we do cheer that one yes john we were going to keep them in reserve if everything else failed it would at least give us a chance then we don't have anything left to fall back on you made a point earlier about we talked about delenn commanding her own white star and you're like hey we established she doesn't have the military experience for something like that right almost everything that she's brought to shared in this episode he's been like, no, we're doing the opposite of what you think. Ah, that's a big old gun. Okay. Is that a first one ship? That's a planet killer. Oh, okay, okay. So the first ones did take out a planet killer. That there is no longer anything here that has been touched by these shadows. This is a big step for Londo, or for Veer also. This is a big grow-up moment for Veer. You're wrong. There's still one thing left. Something that's been touched by the shadows, influenced by them.

[24:57] You must kill me, Vir. The Vorlon have a flair for the dramatic. Show them that you have done it. Good for Londo. Yeah, they'll be back. Good for Londo. Hey, if I gotta die to save these people, I'm gonna die. Can you try to get through? She's ghouled.

[25:17] Yeah, he almost looks like, ha ha ha, you fell into my trap. Do not interfere. So JMS says, the woman in ice for the Vorlon is a symbol of their rigidity, their inflexibility, and being frozen in time. We only want to help you. But what if the right choice is not to choose at all? Yeah. What if we reject the idea? Rush. Apparently he doesn't listen to Rush. On the idea of the Vorlons and Shadows representing order and chaos, JMS says the notion of the Vorlons and Shadows representing order and chaos goes back to the Babylonian creation myths, that the universe was born in the conflict between order and chaos. Hence, part of the reason I decided to name this show after Babylon. So stop. The Shadows say chaos and evolution. The Vorlons say order and obedience. What if chaos didn't have to be linked to evolution? And what if order didn't have to be linked to obedience? Yeah, this is that rigidity, right? This is the way. What if order actually led to evolution? And frankly, doesn't chaos so often lead to obedience? Think about it, right? Like out of chaos gets born some sort of strong...

[26:32] Thing that directs obedience from everybody just to to get it back into order frankly yeah okay chaos leads to order but usually like an authoritarian order my way or highway kind of order which demands obedience which then leads to the creation of chaos because you've got this one power telling you what to do and people eventually are like i don't want this anymore and thus the cycle continues right and here we are thousands of years later delennon sheridan calling him out on it you will fight because we tell you to fight see they're wanting obedience also when we tell you to die for us because you will others know no other way that's where you're wrong that is evil oh yeah die for us when we tell you to die for us because the others know no other way and ben makes a very good point in our comments over here i have repeatedly said the vorlon specifically with the vorlons making uh put genetically manipulating people to turn some into telepaths that the vorlons were doing what is necessary not just to protect people from the shadows but to give the lesser races the ability to fight back but he makes a good point that idea kind of falls apart when they show that they could have ended the war on their own at any time yep but they just didn't want to the vorlons wanted to keep it going It is the cycle. They both want to protect the cycle.

[27:56] And that becomes the, yes. And I will reiterate, I've never said that the manipulation part is good. You know what I mean? And I'm not saying that the Vorlons are some angelic, altruistic race out there. I'm just saying between the order and the chaos models, between instigating fighting or propping up art and the humanities to direct evolution, I prefer the art and the humanities.

[28:28] And the vorlon are allowing this to happen like they're coming together, they took the hit for us because they formed a real alliance our age is past this belongs to the younger races now they have learned to stand on their own i think this answers the question we were asking earlier is laurianne the big villain of babylon 5 i think no i think they did their nourishing and whatnot of the races and then stepped aside the things went south when the Vorlons and Shadows refused to step aside. When they did the thing where, oh, no, we're going to stick behind. Yep. And we're going to stay behind and help guide the younger races. No, no, no. You should have gone. Exactly. It's not your place to stay anymore. This isn't you anymore. Yeah, you've done the thing. You're actually going to damage them more than help them. Stop. Go away. Go away. Why are you still here? Will you come with us? Daddy. Daddy.

[29:29] What we just saw was Sheridan and Delenn speaking on behalf of the lesser races saying, hey, we're grown-ups now. And what we're seeing is that Vorlons and Shadows never grew up. They don't want to grow up. They're Toys R Us kids. So JMS was asked, so they just left because Sheridan and Delenn told them to? I really like his analysis here. He says, I think that, for me, what mitigates against that is that it wasn't just Delenn and Sheridan. It was virtually every other major civilization that was around them and backing their play. They added their support, their voices, and they showed they were even willing to die for the sake of this confrontation. If it were just the two of them, they'd be scragged. The two forces needed to be shown that the others had turned against them and that their true faces had been exposed. I think this is the big one. The other key for me is neither the Vorlons nor the shadows saw themselves as conquerors or even adversaries. They believed they were doing what was right for us. And like any possessive parent, they'll keep on believing that until the kid is strong enough to stand up and say, no, this is what I want. I have some thoughts on that. I'll share a little bit later. Okay. And when your time comes as ours has.

[30:45] To step aside and allow them to grow into their own destiny it's a message all parents need to hear lorian says that's why it was necessary to get all the first ones here in this battle because no one can stay behind this time yeah i think we we tend to really just think of the vorlons and the shadows being out there we know that there's a couple first ones here and there just sort of the the scragglers the one who are just sort of doing their own thing not really paying attention to whatever but the truth is they're very much a part of the problem as well.

[31:17] They could have ended that at any point and they just chose not to they just wanted to stick around for whatever reason and lauren's like nope it's time for all of us to go their inaction makes them just as accountable and culpable as the warlands and shadows actions i don't know that i agree with that particular idea yeah as a whole yeah uh again we we talk about i'm not responsible for somebody else's actions. But why were they sticking around? They were just sticking around to watch the spectacle. They were doing their own manipulating and whatnot of other races. They were, whatever reason, they were still there and had not gone on. Probably looking at you, Technomages. Although they went into hiding. They weren't going beyond the rim. They were just going into hiding. They weren't ready to go beyond the rim, right? I think they were trying to go beyond the rim. I thought they were just going into hiding to protect their knowledge or whatever. I think the goal was to do that beyond the rim. But is it – well, but I thought that's what we established in Crusade was that they weren't going beyond the rim. They were just going into hiding. At this point, what we heard from –.

[32:18] My clan sara was going beyond the rim elric elric yes but i do think it's a question of if i see a thing happening that is wrong and super harmful that's not my fault that's happening but is it not my responsibility to say something do something or do i just watch that person those people that race that society just get destroyed well one i would argue that no it may not be your responsibility because frankly here what do we know in the age of social media saying something doesn't do jack it doesn't i'm sorry guys putting stuff out on social media and making these big green Jewish statements that it does nothing it actually makes things worse it really doesn't so no to just say something no if i'm walking down the street and somebody is getting mugged and i have the ability to stop that right like i i overwhelmingly have the ability two kids are fighting or two kids are beating up on another smaller kid okay i can go handle two kids am i not somewhat obligated to go over and take those two kids off that one younger kid yeah, as a grown-up and an adult yeah i kind of am but also jeff this is what the episode affinity from Stargate examined is the episode where tilt gets his apartment, right? Or is that really our responsibility or, but they made the choice. They were like, we can't do this. So we're going to take him out of the equation.

[33:47] We're going to bring him back here. These first ones were like, we can do this and we're going to, and we're not going to, and we're going to stay. That would be like telling to stay in your apartment, but don't do anything. Which is what they were trying to say. And as soon as it became apparent, they couldn't have him there without him doing something. Then they pull them back in. Yeah. I, I, I don't know. I, I still, I think I, I still struggle with the idea that, that I am responsible for somebody else's actions. And I don't think that's true. Well, I don't, I don't think that's what. anyone is saying i'm not saying that i'm not responsible they're not responsible for what the shadows of orleans have done they're responsible for not doing anything about what they have done when they have the power to do something exactly it's not like they're just some like little race on a crusade world that no one knows about and they're like no these people can show up and they can put a stop to this then we bring that back to world politics those people over there are doing bad stuff to their people that government over there is doing bad stuff to their people. We're bigger than them. We can take them out. Do we now have the obligation to go take that place out? And we're going to get involved in world politics like that? I mean, I know you could say we already are. As I say, here we are.

[34:53] But neither you or I are sitting in the chair making that call. Yeah. I also think it's different. I think it's different because the analogy that Lorianne specifically is telling here and what we saw play out, this isn't about individual governments and powers with the first ones. This is about a family. like they are all Laurie Ann's the dad for all of them and it's like when my brother is out bullying some kids over here something like that yeah I show up I tell them to knock it off or I get involved because that's my family I can't have that going on when you take it to governments and world politics it's very gray and it's and I don't think that's what this is it's more about there's the community of the first ones there's the community of the lesser races and this small part of the community of first ones are screwing up and being jerks. This community needs to be like, knock it off. Let's go. I want to talk more about the community piece when we get through this episode. Okay. We'll come back to that. Oh, buddy. Do it. There it is.

[35:58] Brothers don't shoulder tap. Brothers hug. Let's just take a moment and admire the shot right here. The way that Kevin O'Connell or whatever his name is, the director of this episode, the way they put there's they're on a shuttle. There's Dylan and John and John. And the station is clear as day. Just beautiful right outside the window with Epsilon three right there behind it. It's just a gorgeously built shot. Yeah. Lit perfectly. A little bit of backlighting behind John and Delenn, which gives them that separation they need. Like, oh my gosh, just beautiful, beautiful shot. It's a new age, Delenn. A third age. My third. Now we built the future. Now we stop being afraid of shit. Why is it the third age? Well, because that's what Tolkien did. That's why.

[36:55] I love pushing into that right there just put push into the green screen and we'll take care of it in post yep and like michael said in the chat just that the music the soft theme just kind of gently buffeting us towards the station yeah there's one thing that jms said that i didn't like find the right spot to put it but he said that uh, What interests me, what I wanted to do with making this show, was in large measure to examine the issues and emotions and events that precede a war, precipitate a war, the effects of the war itself, and the end of the war and the aftermath. He said for Babylon 5, the war was hardware. The people are at the center of the story. So you could say the first age was the age of the first ones.

[37:41] The second age was the age of the Vorlons and the shadows, the next ones, right? The third age is now the age of the younger races. Yeah. Or the age of men, as Katarina references Lord of the Rings, right? It's the age of men. The question then becomes, what is the fourth age? Right. Yeah. What is the fourth age? I think we explore, get close to exploring that in deconstruction, but we don't really see it, right? But it has happened. We see the humans as the encounter suit people now. And so they're off, hopefully not manipulating other races. Like hopefully they learned from this and do it differently. There's also a really strong chance. Somebody said earlier in the chat, I liked it. History may not repeat itself, but it certainly rhymes. So maybe like they're like, yeah, we actually do know better for you and need to manipulate and do things. But I would like to hope that's not the case. You know, Sheridan, though, explains it really more in terms of the life cycle of a human. Of them.

[38:38] Okay. The, the first age is infancy. We were born, we, we didn't, we weren't really here. We, we just came into being the second age. We were controlled and manipulated by outside forces who thought they knew what was best for us. Or if we look at that in terms of a human, there's your child and teenagers, your childhood and teenagers where you buck up against, you know, you, you, your parents are there and you buck up against it. Now, JMS had a really shitty upbringing and some really shitty parents. That's being very light. That's a very soft description. Yes. Yes. Yes. That is not offensive at all to say. And he would agree with that. I'm sure he said that. Maybe just not using those words. He's a little more eloquent than I am, than I are. So the idea that we're seeing the breaking of the teenage years and the parental years is very negative from his standpoint. Kind of makes, it's almost a little autobiographical. Okay, okay. You know what I mean? Like, I don't think any writer can ever truly do anything that doesn't interpolate some of their own experiences in on top. Yeah. And hopefully my kids will have a better upbringing and relationship with their parents than what the younger races and the Vorlons and Shadows did. Because in many ways, Lorian was really a more grandpa figure and the Vorlons and Shadows were mom and dad. And then the younger races were the kids. Right.

[40:03] But now the third age is they're on their own. They've reached adulthood. Right. Okay. So I'm going to ask the same question I just a second ago. So what is, what is the fourth age? The fourth age would be when they begin to have, when there's new younger races, they become the parent and then grandparent figures. And then the fifth age becomes their grandparent figures. Right. What I call the sage years, right? You have the four, the fourth age is when we're raising the next generation, which was given to them. That was a mission given to them by Lorian. You raise the next generation. You teach them as we've taught you, right? And step away. And he was sure to get that in. Right, right. Well, but again, that becomes that, again, I call it the sage, the sage years. You look at the phases and lifehood of a person, that is right.

[40:56] And it's actually interesting to think of it in terms of the lifespan of a human being. Yeah. You know? Well, you can do that with a lot of things. Sure. Our life is this. And then as you come out, it's like everything lines up to that because that's our frame, right, is our experience. But I do like that. And Ben says the fourth age is probably when we go beyond the rim and die. And I would argue, Ben, it's not. I would say it's not. The fourth age is when new races come up and this rate, we begin to kind of shepherd and parent them. And then there's actually a fifth race where they begin to do the same thing. And we sort of stick around as observers and whatever. And then the end of the fifth age is when humanity ascends and goes beyond the rim.

[41:46] That's in my mind how it works. Well, it's like our fourth age would be the new lesser races first age. Yeah. Yeah, and that cycle. Yeah, and then there's their teenage years. Their second age, our fifth. And then we have to go away. So I mentioned the community thing. Yeah. Well, I'm sorry. First of all, did JMS have anything else he wanted to say? That was the only other thing I had. There's a couple when we start talking deep into messages. I've got a couple of things. Well, maybe this will get us there.

[42:13] Jeff, our first watch, we analyzed this idea of what would it be to take this into the real world and just be like, hey, look, we are so torn apart, so put at odds with each other in the real world. Very politically speaking, especially in a two party system as we have here in this country and in many other places around the world. What if we just decided to not participate anymore? And we just we kind of took this attitude. Look, we're not going to let you divide us in. We're not going to participate in this. This is about you. It's not about us. And we're just not going to be a part of it. And you guys can go F yourselves. We got so many comments and so much feedback about you can't do that because as soon as you do that, then they take over. And, you know, this is our voice and this is how we participate and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's right and fair. I knew that when we were saying like, that's a part you can't just do that. But I think I want to add on the second half of that. Sheridan could have sat there and been like, yeah, we're just not going to participate all you want. But what was the thing that actually made the that tipped the scale?

[43:17] It wasn't Sheridan standing there giving this big speech. It was the Drazi ship throwing itself in front of that that oncoming missile. It was the rest of the ships surrounding them saying, no, no, no, we're all in this together. And suddenly we turned into a Disney musical. The not taking sides thing can only work once you have united as a people. Okay. That's the thing. I think it's just a sharp reminder. As long as they, the powers that be, can keep us divided. I'm speaking to everybody here. because we've certainly had our conversations within our own community here. And we have a plethora of different types of people here. And as long as we stay divided, they stay in control. When we decide that we're no longer divided, when we decide we're not going to let them divide us anymore, when we decide that enough is enough and that's not the way this is going to be anymore, and we're just not going to participate in that foolishness anymore, it takes all of us coming together to decide that. Yeah. It takes all of the younger races. It takes all of the people coming together. But once you unite the people, then you know what? Then you can say, Go beyond the rim, which is a very polite way of saying take a hike, which is also a polite way. Go yourself.

[44:35] I think a lot of it is what we talked about last week, where the power of evil people can only be perpetrated if people go along with the thing. Right. Cartagia says, kill that, that jester. If the people say, I'm not going to kill him, then he doesn't die. But they're going to kill him because someone will kill them if they don't do the thing. That division forces conforming with whatever that power is. I think my problem and what I think is brilliant in what we observed, what we witnessed in this episode was, I don't know if I took the note on this, but one of the things that, oh, I did, yeah, it's in the messages right here. Part of the lesson of Babylon 5 is that we do not always defeat our enemies by bombing them back to the Stone Age. We can often achieve peaceful resolutions by talking to each other. What? Yeah, right? What? How very Roddenberry of you, Straczynski? Here's the difference though, with Roddenberry was we do it by talking to each other. So Jesse Straczynski says we can often achieve, like there are times we need to bomb people back to the stone age, apparently.

[45:42] But I think to understand, like, we had the expectation the first time, and I think a lot of other people had the expectation going into this, the Battle of Coriana VI, that we would win by force. We would win by might. We would defeat the Vorlons and the Shadows. And that's just unrealistic. Within the system that the Vorlons and Shadows have created, we can't play their game and win. We cannot. And this is demonstrated here through technology, essentially. You know, I can't. We saw those guns on the first one's ships. We can't compete with that. But when you start, exactly right. But when you start doing things your way instead of their way, that's where that change can happen. You can't fight this good guy, bad guy, left, right, red, blue. You can't fight those things by playing in their system because the system is built to perpetuate those things. Sheridan shows up and he's like, it's not even that I'm not going to choose a side. It's I'm not playing this game. I'm doing it like this. And so it's becoming united like you talked about. We have to be united and agree we're doing stuff differently. And you can stay in your system, but no one else is going to be participating in it anymore. So have fun in your fantasy world. You know, we do this in sports. What do you hear coaches say to their teams all the time? Stop playing their game. Play your game. Yeah.

[47:05] Stop bending to what they're trying to tell you to do. you go play your game and how you play ball yep and don't worry about them you play your game and what's amazing about that is the sport it's sorry but we're gonna talk about sports for a minute but ball here we go but all is it all i think it all connects those when you go and play your game, that evolves the game i'm just thinking very specifically about the introduction of the shotgun in, in football, like when they started using the shotgun for me, what changed everything what are they doing that's a quarterbacks way back there what everything we went from a ground game to an air game right because there were teams that were like this is like we're good at this and it's easier for us to do it when we do this and now someone lines up in an ace or an eye like what do you what are you doing like what is this 1946 like come on like whatever so like when we college in college football when they introduced the wildcat idea yeah oh my god somebody came out with that the wildcat idea what i'm not going to snap to the quarterback i'm going directly to the running back and they're going to take off what it's like yeah there's nothing saying we can't do it we're just gonna you know and do things your way not their way unless their way works for you you know hey good for you but i would argue it doesn't, In the words of old Frank Sinatra, I had to do it my way. Do it my way.

[48:33] Which brings us to the second message that JMS shared. We talked about this. I love it when he's just like, hey, here's the point. This is the whole thing. I like it when we get this from him. Because you and I are kind of spitballing. In this one, I don't think you could be more to the point than what he says here. He says, simply, we are stronger together than we are apart. Oh. Well. How very Roddenberry of you, Straczynski. And the thing we have said on this program more than once, and it bears repeating, is that as long as we are being actively divided by people in influence and in power, we are weaker. They are making us weaker. It is only when we stand together that we are strong.

[49:17] I feel I'm obligated to say this at this point. Save your emails, folks. It was a joke saying that it was Roddenberry. Because Star Trek doesn't own the message. No one owns the message. It is a message that needs to be told through multiple sources and multiple ways around. Because clearly we're not getting it.

[49:35] Like, because we are stronger together. I mean, and that's really what I said just a moment ago, right? Like the whole not participating and not whatever. Yeah, that in the real world, that works once we can do that. I mean, okay, sorry, sorry to make this all about America, y'all. It's just that's what I am. And this is the history I know, right? What was it that eventually allowed America to overthrow the monarchy? Because I'm going to tell you what, the colonies were as different as everything else. Yeah. It was coming together. When they could set aside various ideas and unite around a particular idea that they're like, yeah, we're going to throw you off. Also, we need some help from the French over there. Yeah, that's important too. It requires setting aside of certain things and coming together to be like, no, we're just not going to play that game anymore. What happens to the American government when – like literally what if people just refuse to vote? In mass? Yeah. Because that's the thing. What if we shut down voting places? I'm not advocating for this, folks. I'm not advocating for this. I'm not saying we should lose American democracy. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying, what if, what would happen? There's no way to answer that without being wildly politically charged.

[50:53] Because I would go as far to say at a federal level, we've been there for a while. And here we are. Or what if we just, nobody votes for the guy on the ticket? Right. We're all going to vote for Mickey Mouse. Mickey Mouse literally has a percentage of the vote in every election. And it's time for him to stand up. We need to get behind him. Because Mickey Mouse politics are going to be a heck of a lot better than whatever it is we're doing these days. Listen, the world would be a lot better if it was ran by Disney, I'm convinced. Although I don't know that it'd go well for you and me, Jeff. I was going to say. Because dads tend to die in Disney films. We're not very smart when it –.

[51:28] In those spots okay this has gone off the road look this is where again they're trying to take these things and apply them to real world becomes really tricky because there is how the real world works and this is a very tough to contend yeah this is a beautifully constructed reality that we're working in where things work out and the things happen but i think i think the principle is still there when you're being manipulated and you're being whatever to just simply say look i'm I'm not participating in the craziness anymore. And, you know, the thing is, is, and this is the sad part. I can't get everybody to agree to participate that with me, but I can throw down the, the, the arm. I can throw down the gauntlet. I can be like, I'm not participating in that. I'm not, I'm not going to turn my social media platform into a mouthpiece for one of them. I'm not.

[52:15] I'll encapsulate this to take it even away from, or less in the realm of politics and maybe make it a little more, um, please relevant, achievable, achievable, even. So the, the, where I work, we are an organized workforce. There's a, there are multiple unions that represent the people that I work with. And every so often they have elections for their officers, you know, the chair and the president, the treasurer and the whatever. I was walking into the office one day with a coworker who's represented. I'm management. I'm the bad guy. You are the bad guy. I am the, I am the problem. But, uh, the, one of the people running came up and I'll say this guy's name was Doug. And they're like, Doug, Doug, Hey, listen, can I count on your vote?

[52:56] We have to stand up to management. We have to unite against them. We have to do these things. Can I count on your vote? And Doug said, the minute you stop saying things like fight, divide, and that kind of language, then you'll have my vote. Until then, I'm not participating in this election. He completely noped out because he's like, all you're doing is perpetuating division. It's like, hey, here's the secret in union negotiations. Not all the time, but a lot of the time we all want the exact same things, but we work in a system that promotes and recognizes and rewards conflict. So we play the conflict game, and it's dumb. Well, but people fall for it. They keep falling for it over and over. People fall for it. And this is the thing, because it's easy to say this. The language of division should be the first notice to you that you need to stop listening to that person or those people or that ideology. If they are dividing, it is not good. Hey, they're coming for you. This is a war. You've got to fight, fight, fight. Exactly. They're coming for you. This is it. You got a man, you're going to stand like all of that, all of that language.

[54:04] It's divisive and evil, and it is why the world isn't reaching its full potential and never has. The thing is, there's always that person who's like, what if they're right? Oh, my God. Well, there's the other people. No, dude, they hate you. They want to see you die. They hate your guts. They hate everything about you and just want you to die. Well, you know what? If I start believing that, then you know what? Yeah, I got to. No, dude, I don't hate you. I'm not angry at you. I'm not mad at you. Please don't shoot me in the face. Right, exactly. Please don't. In fact can we just like have a coffee or something yeah like it's it's i don't know jeff and this is why i sit back and say this is one of the greatest hours of television ever because shows when they're working properly make these kinds of conversations happen we could literally go four more hours talking oh we could just keep talking about this and and the truth is is we probably would never come up with an actual viable workable solution for the real world yeah you know what i mean like it would be it would be so hard but the but what's weird about it is the principle still stands you know what i mean like like because the truth is is politically speaking anyway we are locked into the system that we that we have so how do we operate within that i'm not advocating for a new revolution okay forget about that let's talk about the system of work.

[55:23] How about your family dynamic how about your sports team dynamic how about your school dynamic like it applies all the way up and down. I think the biggest thing we can say here though is just be a person who doesn't allow yourself to be manipulated.

[55:39] You recognize it for what it is. I recognize you're manipulating me and I'm not going to participate in the craziness. That's it. These people are coming for you. No, they're not. That's the real world workable solution. I'm not participating in your craziness. Yeah, you're right. They're coming for you. No, they're not. They're not. It's okay. I appreciate your passion and that you care for me. That's great. I appreciate that gesture. They don't, they're not coming for me. They're not coming for you either. Maybe relax. Right. Try that out. Jeff, this next part makes me a little trepidatious. Oh, really? Yes. I think we're still on the same page possible on this one. Well, but here's the thing. Like I am giving to you control right now. That's a scary thing. All right. And you could very much do something that I completely disagree with, and there's really not much I can do about it. Right. Until you can. Until I can, which is the great equalizer in all of this. So, Jeff, with that, it is time to place this episode in our 100% completely accurate and definitive ranking unless he does it wrong. Of Babylon five season four for the second time. And Jeff, you are placing this one. We have five episodes. Something is going to find itself out of the top five. Is it this episode? Is it one of the others? Our current top five from bottom to the top. Number five is falling towards Apotheothus for the summoning three hour of the wolf to whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi and one, the long night. Jeff, where does into the fire find itself in the ranking? Number one.

[57:06] As it should be. Like if I... I can't, I can't even pretend like I can't even pretend. I'm thinking of all the rest of the episodes to come in this season. I don't think any of them off the top of my head, take this one over. I agree. I agree. I'm thinking of all the other episodes throughout the entire course of Babylon five sleeping in light is perhaps like that's, that's, you almost can't even count sleeping in light because it's such a, it's such a thing. It's its own thing. I don't know that any other episode in Babylon five takes the spot. Yeah. I really don't. On our first time watch, this came out as number one. And to your point with the stuff that's coming, three of the top five we haven't watched yet. That's great. Yeah. That's fantastic. And I do remember there's a lot of good season left here. Here's Jeff. This is typically the spot where we take a look at and we go, hey, what do you remember about the next episode? What do you remember thinking? Okay. This is a breaking point in the season. And I mentioned earlier, we haven't even really talked about the idea that season four got compressed. The timeline gets compressed because all of a sudden they're like, oh, yeah, P10 is going away. This is your final season. Go. And JMS is is.

[58:13] You know, shuffling things around to be able to finish his story. Right. This marks the end of a chapter in the story. Yeah. What do you remember going forward just for the rest of the season? But do I remember going forward? Yeah. Yeah. We have quite a lull here for a little while and then a huge, big uptick and then another lull and then really big thing for earth. And then the season's done. I don't remember two lulls. I only remember the one. Well, I remember because we went like the one we're heading into next week. Yeah. It's like, okay, a little slow. And then Minbari stuff. A couple, two or three episodes. Yeah. And then it settles. Oh, and then Earth. So actually, it may just go from Minbari to Earth. I think Earth is ramping up pretty well along with it. Yeah, that's very much what I remember. But Jeff, specifically now, the next episode is Epiphanies. What do you remember specifically with Epiphanies? How in the world do you follow this episode? I remember talking about this a lot, even during our first time of this one. I think our exact phrase was...

[59:19] And that's a wrap, right? Like what an incredible series finale that was. Yeah, right. But I think that what I, God, what do I remember about this one? I think that this is one, I honestly don't remember anything about this one. Like I'm trying to think and I'm like, there's some Garibaldi stuff, I think, in this one. But I don't remember. I really don't remember. Do you, what do you remember about it? I don't remember specifics about what happens in this episode. but I do remember how this episode made me feel. I remember feeling like this episode was very disjointed. I remember feeling like this episode was very just sort of what in the world.

[59:58] I remember this episode feeling very incomplete. And I remember having the thought like, I can't judge. I'm not saying this is a bad episode. Like, I don't necessarily think this is a bad episode. I just can't do anything with it until I see the rest of the season. I need like, I need it in context of the rest of the season. Because I was very much aware of this is not an episode that's unto itself. This is not a beginning, middle, and end, and here is an episode. This is something that is within a much larger context of something else. Okay. What I'm really excited about on this watch is the first time around, I had no idea what that was. Now we do. Now I'm going to be able to watch this episode knowing how it fits into the greater scheme, And I, I'm hoping I'm going to really be able to appreciate this episode for what I suspect it probably has the ability to be appreciated for. This could be the geometry of shadows of season four.

[1:00:57] Maybe, maybe. But I, again, I just don't think I don't. I don't know exactly what happens in this episode. So I'm kind of going to be watching it for the first time again, but being able to go, Oh, here's, here's why this is just a glorious episode. Or we're going to be like, yeah, this was just a crap episode. They had the impossible task of following up into the fire, but except JMS, I JMS is in a spot where he's pulling all of his pieces together. Like this is not, Hey, we let's fill out 22 episodes this season, you know? So I'm anticipating big things coming up in this next episode. Okay. That's my thought going into it because, yeah. Yeah. I hope so. We'll see what happens. I don't want to come down off this high. Like this episode feels good, you know?

[1:01:49] This is going to be a tough episode for anybody to follow. Oh, yeah. Yeah, the worst. But we'll find out here next week. So make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss the episode. Comment, rate, review, do all those sorts of things. The one thing you can do that means the absolute world to us and we would appreciate with all of our not playing the game hearts is for you to share this show. Share it with somebody who needs to watch these last six episodes with some super cool guys who are also watching it right now for the second time. Us. We're the cool guys. We're super cool? What? Yeah. Wow. We're totally the cool guys on this conversation here right now in this moment. We're the coolest guys here. Excuse me. Yeah, hey, honey, I just want you to know I'm a super cool guy. All right. Bye. Love you.

[1:02:39] I mean, we're not some deep space franchise. This station is about something. All right. We got something we got to get to. However, that was not the intended ending. How could I not end it on that? No, it was great. I did not anticipate you doing that at all. I was just trying to be funny in the moment. And it worked. Whatever. What I had written here would not have talked that. No, but I do want to read what you have written here because I do like it. Okay. All right. So let's do the bit. Let's do the bit. Lead it in. We'll just do the bit. This is just for you guys. And then we're going to get out of here and move on. The one thing you can do that'll mean the world to us is share this show with somebody. So until next time. Hey, Jeff. Yeah. What's up, man? Hey, do you know who we didn't see in this one? A couple of people. Who are you thinking? Garibaldi. You're right. We didn't see Garibaldi. So that leaves me with one question. Okay. Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi? Oh, that's the thing.