Falling Toward Apotheosis | For the Second Time

[0:47] Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. My name is Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, and then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and everything changed. So now we're watching this incredible series for the second time because Babylon 5 is a series that you get to watch for the first time twice.

[1:15] That's right. But we're also, for the first, second time, whatever, watching the show for the messages that are contained within. What are the things that we pluck out of it? Maybe what are some things that JMS himself intended, not just what we speculate, but what the man himself is saying. We're looking for things that hold up a mirror to society, give us hope that things can be better in the future. Or maybe they just tell us how to be better human beings to one another.

[1:41] That being said, this is Jeff and mine's second time through the series. We have watched it all the way through once. Spoiler free, we had no idea what was coming next. Had an entire run. This is not that. That means that anything from any point in the timeline, in the franchise, in-universe, out-of-universe, doesn't matter. It is all fair game for Jeff and I to talk about. So this is your one and only spoiler warning. If you have not watched this incredible show for the first time for yourself, stop this show right now. Go join our first watch. Just scroll up in the feed. It'll be up that way somewhere. And you can do that spoiler free. And then once you're through the show first, you come back and do this one. Because trust me, it's a different watch the second time around. It's like the first time, but it's still a different watch. So that being said, you have been warned. My warning is sincere. Ignore it at your own peril. Brant, this week we're watching an episode called Falling Toward Apotheosis. When we watch this the first time, we would predict what the next episode was going to be. based on the title alone, what did you predict falling toward apotheosis was going to be about?

[2:46] Well, apotheosis reminded me of the word apotheosis.

[2:49] Apostasy. Apostasy means to leave the faith. And so I said this would be the one about the Vorlons leaving the faith, or rather the younger races leaving the faith of the Vorlon as we begin to realize that they are not the force for good that we've been led to believe that they are. I don't remember if that actually happens in this particular episode or not, Jeff, but I then went on to say this. I would like to quote, or maybe they weren't ever really a force for good. Maybe we just made them out to be that way or maybe they made themselves out to be that way. How about that prediction? Hope nobody drove off the road when they heard me say that. Mostly from going, yeah, they said it back in Zaha Doom. What are you doing? How about you, Jeff? I really thought we were going to see two kind of things go on here. We were going to see, uh Londo trying to convince cartagia that the shadows aren't going to be happy being stuck with just the island they're going to want more and more land so just more of Londo trying to kind of dismantle cartagia and what he was doing and then i remember saying you know hey sheridan is meant to fight legends and what better time than now and uh i will quote here for myself he's going to go one on one with the kosh one.

[4:13] One on one with the kosh one. Which is actually the kosh two, because kosh one is inside of him. Or at least a piece. I was being the rock. I'm such a great rock. You, yeah yeah i just have a really great picture the picture of him with the the fanny pack the necklace he's all i did i did like i'll have to find it i did a side by side had a fanny pack and everything i mean really you can't tell the difference between the two of us i have seen so many people do that particular look like for halloween or something like that it's it's classic every time you do it it's so good it's amazing perfect well jeff uh that's what we predicted, Predictions are always fun, regardless if we get them right or not. But you and I did watch this one time before. Are you interested in what we actually thought once we had watched the episode? I really am. I am, too, because I'll be honest. I'm sitting here right now in this moment. I still don't know what this particular episode was about. They all jumbled together for me in this deal. So let's take a look at what we had said the first time around.

[5:20] Previously on Babylon 5 for the first time. falling towards help me out with this one jeff you got this i believe in you i believe in you apotheosis no no apotheosis i mean really how could you not love an episode that has cartagia, dusting the nose of a beheaded minister while londo sits holding his nose nose because they have to reek does he really feel like he hears voices i think he does i think he does this whole thing he's like i was talking to minister dagari here and he had this great idea that we should do this and it's like oh yeah yeah your highness that's great let's talk about londo's silver tongue we have to remember you can remember your majesty he wasn't even talking to cartagia he was talking directly to his ego.

[6:10] Plan is so brilliant it puts cartagia and londo on narn cartagia is gonna get refund man he's like if i try and kill cartagia here me and jakar will be dead in 2.2 seconds this is his kobayashi maru and he's kirking it by going in and changing the parameters of the game uh jakar's getting his eye plucked out i just imagine that guy going home his wife's like how was your day and he's like i really i really don't want to talk about it if you had to pull somebody's eye out right now what would you do i pray desperately neither you nor i ever know the answer to that question kosh one is now gone gone gone for reals and i'm kind of upset about it this exit didn't seem worthy of the of the gravity of kosh being there to me i'm really over garibaldi right now yeah what i don't know about garibaldi right now what is talking is this actually garibaldi or is this whatever psychor plopped into his head zach gets it even after he stormed out of the war council which i also get zach went after him and behind behind garibaldi's back stood up for him and i thought that was awesome so sheridan people are looking at him like he's a freaking god and he's like i don't like.

[7:22] It i don't want to be that and lorian's like you've got to be that i know.

[7:41] The way it's phrased is he walked faithfully with God, and then he was no more. And the implication being that he never died. He was just taken. We're closer to Sheridan becoming a god and having to leave his brand new wife and probably his new baby. I don't think we're going to see baby David on this show. And you're right. We're not going to see baby David in this show. Or grown David. Or grown David. We're not going to see David. We're going to hear his name. Yep. He's going to be talked about. uh sheridan must be a god yeah i don't remember that conversation no yeah i remember the whole thing lorian being like this you have to embrace this this has to be your thing yeah i don't i don't i'm interested to see that also uh here's what i'm excited then just after coming off of that is we get we get to see the 20-year thing the birth of it right yeah um and i i've still got a, few uh i i got a few questions about where it gets set up and how it comes and and what's the what with how it's supposed to work so i'm interested to see this time around knowing what happens i can i can be looking for it so i liked our discussion on the uh and then he is no more because even when we get to sleeping in light it's just he stopped.

[9:01] That's it. Just, yeah. Boop. So planting the seed for you. I mean, you guys correct me if I'm wrong. There was no body. He just went. Just went. Yeah. I think that is correct. So what do you say we dive into this one? Yes. I would like that very much. All right. Very good. Very good. We're about to dive into this episode literally right here. We're going to pull it up and we're going to watch it together with you. We'll talk about our responses to things, reactions to things, any messages that come up during the episode itself, we cut that up and edit it into a reaction-style video for YouTube. If you want the full and the unedited version of it, you can see that a week ahead of the normal releases at our Patreon page, which is patreon.com slash badnerds. And if you're listening to the audio podcasting app, you're going to hear that reaction, and then we're going to meet you on the other side where we will share our thoughts and talk about messages that we uncover. So, Jeff, let's go watch an episode. Let's fall towards it. Accessing file. Oh, no. We're preempting your normal Babcom service to bring you another update. Right now, our greatest enemy is fear.

[10:14] The only thing to fear is fear itself. I need to get through. You can't save them all. I can try. You'll fail. To your point from last week when you're like, I wanted more of Sheridan and Lorien, this shows you there was a lot more of them. Give me the rest of that story. I want to know what that was like. I don't know that that means that Sheridan is supposed to be a God and that people are supposed to treat him as such. Yeah, I don't think it means that. You know what I mean? People need something to believe in that will unify him. And I think that's the Lordian symbol. Yeah. And I think for Sheridan, it's kind of that fight. There's the leader they need and the leader I am. And there's a gap between those. And I'm not comfortable with that gap. There is a kind of a common story we hear out of stuff like this of just winning the war is much easier than managing what comes after the war. Yeah. You know what I mean? Winning freedom for your country is a whole lot easier than leading your country in freedom. That's a whole different animal. And maybe those shouldn't necessarily always be the same people.

[11:26] And here's the thing like it's really easy yeah come in it's really easy to like, get on garibaldi for being paranoid or whatever here you know and for us knowing what happened to put it on his sidecore programming but we talked about a little bit in the last episode but who is this dude walking around with you with a robe and a big old beard telling you to say stuff like garibaldi is right to question this absolutely and if they're not really explaining who he is or doing the thing where, where people are earning his trust. Like he comes in, they trust Sheridan. And he, Lorian can begin with some borrowed trust, some borrowed credit from, uh, from Sheridan, but he has to earn his own with the rest of the people. And they're just not interested in doing that. Like Sheridan's not interested in, in sharing that out. And, and Lorian really kind of doesn't seem like he cares much for that either, which it's kind of a vorlon shadow thing true, good I got a message from Ivanova if I want to take one more look at you after that you can come back to work you know the number of times that people mispronounce her name in this show, I don't want to hear anybody giving me any guff about saying her name wrong since we both got back he hasn't said two words to me it's like he's avoiding me dude he hasn't said two words to anybody this isn't about you.

[12:48] Oh Would you like some lotion? Perhaps some aloe vera? It'll soothe Get some aquifer Many of their ships on distant worlds, I call them my shadow cabinet. I think you can appreciate the irony. They certainly can. Earlier this evening, and this one had the most knowledge. Is that Andreas' face? It is. So JMS says, yes, that's Andreas' head, which I personally moved over to where it would be beside Peter, who complained in jest that Andreas was stealing the scene from him again. So is it actually andreas's head or is it a mold of his head that they've made up like is that really like andreas like with his neck in a table and they've made up his face or did they cast a mold and that's that's what this is pretty sure they cast a mold.

[13:42] Be weird it's not really him just sitting there trying to be really still right okay he's no linear dude lanier is no linear right you remember him don't you always coughing most distressing but we finally cured it yes you understand exactly snicks so that moment right there in filming this they took many many takes of this scene and they did extras because it just wasn't clicking it was just kind of blah the whole thing okay and then jms runs over to catering and he grabs a bowl and throws like gummy bears and good and plenties and just whatever stuff they have over there puts it in a bowl and says hey just offer this to londo like just some point because he's like sitting with all these rotten dead heads and then just being like hey you want to eat some candy, would push it to the next level and then as they were doing it they're like well they're not going have they're not going to call it snacks like what should we call it thus snicks snicks all right i will take it all with me in spirit don't send the i mean with his perspective all of this makes sense like i can see the string of logic it's rooted in psychosis but i can see this this actually to me harkens back to many ancient civilizations the egyptians and others who, equate their leaders with actual gods. Some that are still even around today.

[15:07] Do you know what a sigmoid is? You're ready to go back to work.

[15:18] Uh-oh yeah i gotta say that one scene was a better depiction of ptsd than the entire episode of the long dark you mean avalon both dealt with ptsd i'd say long dark because at least avalon had a little more to it i don't think i i don't think i was thinking long dark for ptsd but yeah that's amos this whole thing especially the idea of masking or garibald it's like i got this stuff it's weird and it's messing me up but i gotta keep showing up i gotta stay good The only thing that might be as terrible as losing you would be if you came back and could not forgive me, and I lost you again. You did what you thought was right.

[15:56] It's no excuse. I'm sorry, John. So of this, JMS says, yeah.

[16:02] Delanne's done more than enough of this, oh, John stuff for my tastes. That's going to start to change. How does it change? So that's the thing. That's the thing. It doesn't. But I think his intent is for it to change. And when we start getting into atonement, we start getting into the Minbari civil war stuff. She steps into more of a leader. Just a couple episodes. Yeah. So we get more of the Delenn, the strong Delenn instead of the O'John Delenn. But that O'John Delenn kind of becomes the status quo. Well, I mean, so we definitely have Atonement, where she gets her own episode there. What was the other one you just mentioned? There's lines of communication, moments in transition come to mind. Oh, the Civil War, the Minbari Civil War. She steps into that. Meeting the Drak Emissary and all that kind of stuff. And then she rallies the troops to create the ISA, right? Yeah, it's really her, Londo, and Jakar doing their thing, but she leads that. Yeah, she leads that. So, yeah, I mean, she does. I think the thing is, is so much of it, though, happens almost behind closed doors. Okay, so like atonement. The entirety of atonement is behind closed doors and doesn't affect everybody else going out there. And you know what it is? You know what I'm realizing? Because the Dylan I want is the one who comes in riding in the captain's chair going, you know, that man is in front of me. You're in front of me, and he's behind me. And if you want to live, be somewhere else like that. When you say that's going to change, that's the Deline I'm thinking of. Yeah.

[17:27] Not atonement Deline, which I love atone. Like, it's a phenomenal episode. Don't get me wrong.

[17:32] But it's a different it's still a different kind of kind of Deline, right? It is. I think it is. I'm trying to think if Deline ever truly there is the moment where she rallies the troops for the ISA. But like she I mean, she grows a backbone and just sticks it right when she reforms the Great Council. That's a good one. Yep. I think the whole thing with her and the drock was great. Yeah. Like she has, you know what I'm also left with sleeping and light sleeping and light was, I mean, no guff to her, but it was one big. John, as far as Dylan's concerned, Hmm. Yeah. I feel like that might be the strongest D'Len we ever see. No. How? How? Because she watches him go. Yeah. Oh, John. Yeah, you're right. And it's emotional and it's beautiful and it's heart-tugging and it's, oh, John. And John's kind of a jerk to her. And she, no. Yeah. Get off your horse. Yes.

[18:32] Well he is kind of like it's my death party and i'll die if i want to it's kind of how john's rolling right then you know he's like look this is this this is about me right now so but yeah sarah over in the council chambers chat i think puts it well i think we get some really solid and good delen in the remainder of season four it's season five delen where this really comes back she just becomes the side piece right and that and and i say that with much derision because i hate that for her. And I don't want to see that happen to the Lynn. Maybe, maybe, Jeff, here on our second watch, we're going to see a much stronger Jalinda on the stretch here than what we remember the first time. I'm counting on you, Joe. Counting on you. What about Epsilon 3? What about it? We have a whole planet underneath us that's never been touched by the shadow, so in theory, the Vorlon should leave it alone. Once again, we're mentioning Epsilon 3. We're keeping it at the forefront of our thoughts. We're saying that it's a thing, and it's going to turn out to be a big and don't give me that it's the antenna that powers the whatever that is minuscule to what they could be using epsilon 3 4 don't give me well it's what sent bevel and four back in time that was one thing they're talking about this post war without it in real time right now yeah if it was done then they shouldn't be talking about it right now i can't tell you, so you're saying you can't trust me no no that is not stop stop jumping no you don't know how telepathic the Borlons are I want the Borlon gone.

[20:01] Fine. I'll just go up to him and ask him to leave. That'll work. Michael. It's all right. That's exactly what I want you to do. Look, he has got to know by now that we are planning to move against him, so let's give him what he expects. Then we can do what we have to do. Which is the part you can't tell me about?

[20:22] Here. Do you want me to take a full tactical team? No. Just a few people you can trust. That's not enough. He'll wipe the floor with us. I'm willing to make that sacrifice. Yeah. Yep. Even Dr. Franklin there is like... That's not going to go over well, man. I totally get what Garibaldi's feeling here. Yeah. Is it my imagination or is Mr. Garibaldi crankier than usual? Yeah, well, he's been through a lot lately. He just needs a little time to settle in. Come on, Zack. Zack's a good friend, man. He really is. Especially when other people are not good friends in return. Yeah. You talk about that, how do we be better human beings? to one another as a message? Zack. In a Babylon 5 full of Michael Garibaldi's. Be a Zack. That's a t-shirt for you, Idea Fab. Another one, yeah. Dude, his hair is becoming more and more quaffed every episode. A little more hardcore. Right. I get why things go down the way they go down with the fight with Kosh, but it would be such great justice if Lita got to deliver the killing blow. Yes. That would have been awesome. Yes. Agreed. That music the slow turn you are facing lucifer himself, dude that's not even like phasing it at all oh.

[21:50] The random game standing right there incoming message for you captain it's ambassador malari londo probably calling collect.

[22:05] Dude that doesn't even hold up today man it doesn't but still great our kids watch the show they would have no idea what that means i need a fever you see kids back in the day we actually You used to have to pay for phone calls if they were over a certain distance. But what you could do is you could call collect where the person who was receiving the phone call would have to pay as opposed to you, the person who's making the phone call. And that's what that means. And because of that, we got Carrot Top telling us to dial 1-800-C-A-L-L-A-T-T. Just for the record, I did not just mansplain that. I just kidsplained it. Boomer-splained it. There you go.

[22:41] Attacking every colony, every planet involved with the shadows. It's no rumor. Then could you tell me how far they are from Centauri Prime? The way they've been going now so this is this is clearly people on two separate sides of the political table you know they're not sitting on the same side they are across the table from each other right they are opposing political people but at the same time they are working together but they are maintaining their their sides they're not coming buddy buddy they're not that but there is certainly a a mutual respect there is there is uh an understanding that they have with each other, and i think this actually carries over into that future you know they have to be on each side that they're on yeah but you know i don't know i just i find this interesting in light of that like how they're talking and communicating you know look he's giving him the information.

[23:36] Did they not see what happened when the shadows did this to kosh one right now they're going to come in and basically do the same thing to kosh two.

[23:46] The thing blowing up yeah james tell me it wasn't supposed to happen uh not like that it wasn't oh that was that was very poor cgi that we just watched okay first off when james talks about this he calls olkesh kosh 2 i think we got that last week but i i like that he took a lead from us does he does he um does he annotate it and say good soon height uh not in this one he didn't but Oh, okay. It's still pretty funny. So they have two Kosh headpieces that they've had constructed as parts. They had rigged up like a little explosive inside of it. So in the scene, it would actually blow up. Okay. The first one's set up. They're blocking the scene. And without anybody hitting anything, the headpiece just blew up. And they're like, oh, no. They didn't have cameras rolling or anything. So they grab the next one and prep it up with charges again, set it up, block the scene. It blows. And so they have no more headpieces. and so they were like basically we can just have him there show something else and then he doesn't have his head or we can use some cg and they use the cg and they should have done it the other way probably should have yeah but you know i mean wow they're like literally all of our options are gone.

[24:57] Care Bear Stare, You know it's wild When you think about There's a fleet of Vorlon Traipsing through the galaxy Leaving this destruction in its wake This was one Vorlon dying One And it was this catastrophic, His life force must be replenished, Why did he die? Hold on And can you play it a little tiny bit further so we don't have to look at that hand? That's a little weird. They're showing it for a very long time. That was long fingers, man. Why did he die? Why did he die? Well, I don't know that he died. I think he's on the precipice of death. Has he not actually been brought back to life? What we've been seeing of Sheridan isn't Sheridan at all. It's Lorian and Kosh. Maybe. And now he's going to re-emerge. left and now we're left with the body and whatever is left of Sheridan. And Laurie has to replenish that. Mostly dead.

[25:58] At this point maybe and since he just care bear stared them out of him he's just left with a little bit of sheridan yeah but i mean we also know okay so we keep saying and we've said that we know sheridan died at sahadoom you keep saying that i don't think he did i don't know that he did, because he got caught we know he jumped and then he got caught that's right i keep saying he was between the tick and the talk he wasn't necessarily in one or the other or not in them he was between them limbo like he was he's been in a state of limbo and so what we've had is we've had this lorian and and whatever bit of kosh is left in him to almost anna sheridan-esque not morden.

[26:40] Maybe maybe less than maybe in between those two things yeah like there's no programming for sheridan the sheridan we see is still truly sheridan so when lorian turned around and said now was he talking to sheridan and said turn around and release it or was he talking to caution side sheridan saying get after him that's a good question because sheridan really wasn't like this hasn't been sheridan really here and there's enough sheridan that he's basically been observing everything that happens and so now here's laurian gonna give him some life essence back but he's not gonna do the whole thing this man has been living literally since time began and he doesn't have enough and he can't give this guy whatever the normal lifespan of the human is in this particular year. Really? Pretty stingy. Right? One in the chat, Ben says, we're about to get an explanation of this from Lorien. I give of myself to replenish him. Thank you, Arlen.

[27:38] For a little while. And wishing that others could know you as our people know you. If only they could see your greatness as we do. Who will be left to sing your praises? Who will know you for who you are pump that ego what if we conducted his trial and execution on his homework instead of here londo's really good at this court stuff oh yeah can you imagine he is how it would move them well experienced at once.

[28:12] He found things in my Neurosystem. Some kind of Biochemical energy repairing and Sustaining me. He's never seen anything like it. I gave him back a portion. That was the Lorian And Kosh? Only a portion. How long? In human terms. Perhaps 20 years. It's a long time. It's 20 more years than I would have had. At least I can spend Most of them with you. I do have to say that in the moment, I can understand where delen is coming from john's had time to process this and think about it which is why he can be like it's a good run delen's floored like you're gonna die at least 20 years if not more sooner than i thought we were gonna have at least 40 years together the fact that she sticks with this i think really bothers me because at some point i feel you get to uh would you rather have the greatest love you've ever experienced in your life for two days or never at all she gets it for 20 years.

[29:09] Yeah. And I would hope, and this is, I mean, everyone has their way, but I would hope after thinking about it and processing it, that's where she would have landed. Let's make the most out of these 20 years. Let's enjoy every moment of them. You know, I'll tell you, I'm only in my mid forties at this point. There's a bit about life that I've come to understand and it's life works in seasons. There's a season to everything and every season has its end and that includes life itself. And that's okay. So I often think about people like Wolverine, if I can take a turn on you. Yeah. Right. These people with so-called eternal life. And what do we often see in, in fiction, in sci-fi? Oh, eternal life is a curse because, and, and, and what's the story? What's the story almost a hundred percent of the time. Oh, I fell in love with this one girl or this one guy and then they died and I couldn't handle it. So I became very bitter and enraged and, you know, or, or maybe it happened so many times and I just got tired of losing. I feel like if you have an eternal life, internal perspective on things. You understand that for this season of my life, this person is here. And for this season of life, this person is here. And for this, you just understand that. And that's a part of how life goes. We can do that in our own lives. It is very rare that anyone is ever going to have a close friend from childhood all the way to death.

[30:25] You have friends when you're a child. Those people move on. You have friends when you go to high school. Those people move on. You have friends when you go to college, those people move on. You have friends when you go to your first place outside of college. And then when you move and, and you, these are people that for the most part, once that time is done, you tend to lose contact.

[30:44] Occasionally you wind up keeping up with them here and there, but they're pretty much out of your life. They were your best friends for that season. Yeah.

[30:52] And very few people travel with you from season to season to season. I'm not sad or mad because that person's no longer my friend. Right. There are still my friend. And I still care greatly for them. They're just not in my life all the time anymore. And I'm grateful for that season. I feel like Wolverine, if you have an eternal, a longer lifespan, you get that idea. Like the trill in Star Trek to go back to another thing, right? Like this is my time here. And then I move on. And this is natural. Dillon's going to be like, look, this is my time here. That's where she should have been. The idea that she, to what, I'm coming off of what you said just a second ago. And correct me if I didn't misunderstand you. She should get there. She should get that because it seems like for 20 years, she never leaves this moment right here. Yeah. She lives here in this moment that she she's dreading the end of the 20 years rather than living it up and being like, oh, that's that season. That's done. Yeah. Lynn's got another several hundred in her after this. Which, by the way, she was already going to outlive him many times over, right? Yeah, exactly. I mean, assuming that her lifespan is the same now that she's a hybrid. Also true. Good point. So she has an unknown. Maybe she's going to live long. There's a lot of unknown to it. I heard somebody say a thing once that seemed really dark and might still come across as dark. But every relationship we have, every single one, has an expiration date. Some of those, to your point, are the change of the season. Some of them are death.

[32:15] Every relationship has an expiration date. I'm not forcing my view on it to land here. This is just me talking. What a gift knowing when the expiration date of this is. Yeah, you can certainly approach it. And I like what Ben says over here in our chat. So she's allowed to feel sad. Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

[32:31] Would be different if she did something like she left him because she doesn't want to be with somebody who's going to die younger or if she doesn't want to have a kid because of it. But no, she doesn't change her actions and makes the most of her 20 years together.

[32:44] And within that, she's allowed to feel however she wants. Yeah. Yeah. She is definitely allowed to feel sad. And you also said it just saying, he's had a chance to process this and take this through. She's hitting this for the very first time. And I'll go back to something I've been saying. Dillon's never been human before. I've got to imagine that there are emotions that she's feeling right now she's never encountered in her life ever. I imagine. I could be wrong. But I would imagine that's going on with her as well. You know and maybe there's other some bodily things that's you know messing some things up too and but i i think what we would just really like to see her not get beyond but get to the same place of acceptance that that dude is in yeah and it's okay to feel sad when they pass i'm not saying you can't do that either yeah well i think that was leave or anything like that you can absolutely to your earlier point what we see in sleeping in light is her still being like i can't believe it's only 20 years right you know and there and i think this is a quick personal story on that because I think it's like I think right now in this moment she is reacting the way any.

[33:44] Any person would. Sure. Oh, my God, what? And then process and do things. But I remember it was April 1st, 2014. I showed up to work one day and then got news that my boss died overnight. I love it. She was incredible. Her name was Carolyn. This is an incredible human being. And it was devastating. I have a whole thing that I actually do about this. But I struggled. I remember it was April, so it was during Lent. And so at my church, we were doing Stations of the Cross, the thing that we talk about here. And so I was at Stations and I could not stop crying. I was just like, I couldn't believe that she was gone. And being raised Catholic and being in a Catholic church, I'm like, if this is my true belief, shouldn't I be happy? Like, isn't this the goal? You know, live your life, pass on to the next. And I really struggled with that. And I talked to my priest, who's an incredible past has a great pastoral touch. And he's like, well, yeah, you should be happy and you should be sad. You lost someone who's a big deal to you in your life. You can be, you can be both. Right. And that was mind blowing to me at that point, like to be both. And I think that's if, if I could wish something for Dylan, it would be that.

[35:01] That she's like, I'm so sad that I get just 20 years with you, and I am so grateful I get 20 years with you. And, you know, and if it feels like any dumping on Delenn or criticizing of Delenn we're doing here, I think it's less what she's going through in this moment. It's not that at all. at that. Right. It's not that. It's how at least you and I perceive her from our first watch. What you and I remember from our first watch, where it really seems like she, to JMS's thing from earlier, she's just sort of ojawning it for so long. And we want so much more for Dylan. I think it comes from the place we want more for Dylan because we love her so much, I think is if we could put that into that perspective. And in the Council Chambers chat, they are rightly bringing up Tolkien and And because this is a thing that gets explored extensively, you know, love between elves and humans. You've got, you know, Arwen and Aragorn, Baron and Luthien, all of these things that are unfathomable to our short human minds. But I feel that there's an opportunity here for, he mirrors Tolkien so much. This is an opportunity for the same mirror. It'll be interesting to watch for a second time. Sure. Man, I thought I'd lost it.

[36:16] Where has that been in the couch for like the last like three or four weeks right while he was dead and everything he he left that there before he he went away i got it down in the zocalo, it's not what i had exactly in mind but michael in the chat calls it lorion care plus get you a real engagement ring uh it's a it's an earth custom.

[36:43] See you give someone you love, She hasn't said yes yet, dude. Nope. He can barely say it. He has such a problem with love, like verbalizing it. Look at her.

[37:11] Damn, get yourself somebody who looks at you like Dylan looks at Sheridan. That is honestly a very awkward looking kiss you know paul paul brings up an interesting point and i just want to get your take on this jeff so jms has now written two very awkward proposals yes sinclair and katherine will do your don't you and then the one we just watched here with with dylan and sheridan which one was better i think this one was better this one was more touching for sure I think Sinclair's was very practical. You know, this one, like, dude, I teared up. You can't not feel the love between these two and what Sheridan just did. Especially, I think especially because he's so clumsy and sloppy around expressing these feelings. It's so human. It's so male. Have I ever told you the story of my own engagement asking my wife to marry me? That's, I mean, I'm not sure that JMS could have done that one much better. I'm really not. I'll tell that story one day. Today is not the time. We'll tell that story one day. It's a good story. It's a good story. Don't let me forget. I'll tell it to you guys sometime.

[38:18] Don't like the way he's looking at me god i'm trying to decide what to do about it would you care to make a suggestion um you feel like he keeps trying to trap no yeah uh londo yep he had a shot he had a chance right there to point this in a different direction but it's probably wise not to take it maybe so jms says would have been nice if londo had at least tried to do something about the eye that did not see cartagia's splendor oh tying it back to the prophecy to be clear he doesn't say this is the prophecy he just points out that this is an eye that cannot see that's fair did i tell you what you can dig out an eyeball without him screaming, oh god i can't even like just thinking about it.

[39:10] You know if this was uh filmed in contemporary uh star trek they would have shown the eye get removed that well they did in one they did it's so gross oh god uh brent we just fell towards apotheosis um i don't have anything from jms that i wasn't able to bring up during uh during the episode itself anything you want to talk about or any messages you want to touch on i think we hit everything during the episode itself i think so too here's a question i do want to ask though okay less about messages and just more story all right so we we we keep spinning around the circle of, sheridan and his 20 years and did he die didn't he die where are we landing with this this is the thing because lorianne i think gave such a jms answer he did he was dying he was dead he did, he yeah which was it yeah yes exactly right so i think this is honestly this is what i think it doesn't matter.

[40:12] He faced his trial, you know, he went into the, the, the cave to the tree on Dagobah faced his thing and is now coming out changed and redirected. I, um, I can accept that, but I will forever now look at this whole piece. Like there's a piece of me that thinks that, that Sheridan might actually still be back on Zaha doom, or at least was right up until this, the end of this. Yeah. A little bit. Maybe not. That might be too far. But the Sheridan we saw come back in the last episode and through the first bunch of this episode was not really Sheridan. I think it might have been Sheridan sharing. Like Sheridan might have been active, but Kosh was very alive. Lorian was very alive. And there was this thing happening in him. And when Lorian and Kosh left, whatever was left of Sheridan was not strong enough to survive on his own. Yeah. So Sheridan's, Sheridan's life force was... Nearly extinguished on Zaha Doom and was not rekindled until what we saw happen in this episode by Lorian. Until he put those hot dog fingers on him. Right.

[41:27] Everything, everywhere, all at once fingers, right? But what we have seen, like what we saw of Sheridan back on Zaha Doom in the early episodes, that was happening in his mind.

[41:38] And what we saw of Sheridan in the last episode, in the first half of this episode, was basically weekend at bernie sheridan yeah or you know i like i like your kind of analogy where like there's a little bit of sheridan a little more kosh and a little more lorian that makes who we saw right and so like there's always that little bit of sheridan in him the whole time not enough to exert control as it were right but enough to be like i'm here and i mean you almost I always feel like it's more of a Tok'ra symbiosis thing. He's there. He's a part of it. He's probably very much not just willing, but he's a full participant with Kosh and Lorian inside this body. And they're hatching this plan, and they're hatching all this other stuff. And big Lorians over here are doing something. I'm not really sure.

[42:32] Ancient one-ing. Ancient one-ing, right. Whatever that is. Or maybe it was Kosh. It was just Kosh in there the whole time he was really talking to. And so it was kind of Lorian and Kosh with a very little bit of Sheridan and Lorian didn't pop in there until the very end or something. Yeah, something like that. But once that was out, then we had whatever was left of Sheridan after falling down the hole. And that's when he got his life force. Because I know there was questions like, when did the 20 years start? When did it come back? And we were like, no, no, it's after he almost gets killed. Like they brought him back to life. He was going to be good. And then he almost gets killed again and they have to do this other thing. And it's like, well, what's the difference there? Yeah. But I think in my head, this is kind of where it lands. All right. I like that.

[43:14] The physics of JMS on the show. All right. Well, speaking of physics, Jeff, there is something that you have to do that is at least metaphysical, and that is to take this episode and figure out where it belongs in our 100% completely accurate and definitive ranking of Babylon 5 season 4, watching it for a second time because it's like for the first time in forever. We only have three episodes in, so you get to place this somewhere. We're still going to hang out in our top five anyway. But the way it goes right now whatever happened to mr garibaldi is top of the list followed by hour of the wolf than last week's episode the summoning jeff where does this episode get placed, in the ranking we've talked quite a bit about how these six episodes become a sextilogy or whatever sort of a thing and we might as well just motion ball together and rank them as one thing but then i think it was in the last episode we started talking about how well you know i mean there's peaks and valleys especially in a story as long as six episodes for this and i gotta be honest i feel like this is one of the valleys really like it's got moments that are huge like the whole i mean the the caution old cash thing is massive the engagement is beautiful zach is a shining star through everything but on balance like i'm gonna say a thing and i don't mean it for what i'm saying Like, don't react to the words I'm about to say.

[44:39] Let me continue there were good chunks of this episode where i found myself bored and i feel that it's because the peaks in this episode were so high that nothing else could really like measure up to it we have other episodes like that um zadoom you know it's like there's there's so much talking and whatever but it all like flows into the big steps and this one lita pops into olkesh's room and is like hey they're gonna it was so jarring how we went from hey there's a thing we got to do and i can't tell you about it to oh it's happening oh god like here it is so i this is a it's a great episode and but i think it's its own worst enemy in a couple of ways where i'm going to rank it i'm sure it will be pushed down with some of them but uh it's still it's stay relatively high it's still good but falling towards apotheosis bren is going to be our number four on the season so far. Wow.

[45:37] Wow. That's not where I would have placed it, but no, no, this one would have been toggling above or below hour of the wolf. Probably would have been just a little bit below hour of the wolf. Wow. So I would have probably had this at number three. I feel everything you're saying, but I felt all of that more so last week than I did this week. Okay. In the, um, first time, the objectively correct first time ranking. Yeah. This was the lowest ranking of the six was it yeah and it was ended at number 18 whoa that just shows you how strong the season is for real like i'm looking at some of these and it's just like oh my god, But see, okay, so, but what is it when we talk about these first six episodes are so freaking good because we consider them one big thing. And it's almost unfair to rank them separately because it is. Imagine us going in and ranking an episode by act one, act two, act three, act four, act five, and not as a whole complete story. On my Star Trek podcast, the Starfleet Leadership Academy, I didn't include Picard, the series Picard, in my – because I had this algorithm that would randomly spit out the episode. To watch, I didn't put Picard in for the longest time because –.

[46:49] Can't just take one episode of it. Right. And like from a leadership perspective, especially like there'd be a massive range of nothing. So I made a decision. I think it was my 50th episode, um, to celebrate that I did the entire first season.

[47:05] Yeah. I remember you talking about it. It took me like 40, 42 hours to construct that episode. It was a little over like 40 minutes long and it was, I will never, ever do something like that again. It was horrible. You had your jms moment exactly like i did jms did the whole show and you're like yeah that's cool i'm never doing that again do it again and i think the thing is it it was a that was not it was the only way to do that series with the approach i was taking to the star trek episodes only way was to take it as one piece and that's kind of what we thought i think coming in that these six were but i'm going to say i'm going to put this out there as we are approaching the end of these six episodes it was the strength of the next two that just kind of blanketed our opinion of all the other episodes to a point where we're like these are awesome when really like they're great and these ones are awesome but i would also say that the next two episodes would not be as awesome as they were without these without the work of the first four no exactly i mean sleeping in light would not be as awesome of an episode as it is. You need 109 episodes before it. If you take any person and you throw them inside of Sleeping Light, they'll be like, oh my God, can we please get through this episode? But because we have done the work and we've gone through it, I think it's very fair to say if you have not watched Babylon 5 episodes 1 through 110, you are not allowed to watch 111.

[48:29] That episode is not for you because it depends on the work of everything else.

[48:36] That's good writing, right? That's the complete story, you know, so a big reason why we all love Babylon 5 so much is because it sticks the landing so well. And the rollercoaster in the between is there. And it sticks to landing multiple times through the series. And we're heading into one of those right now. I'm just going to say high five, Katarina. That's right. I don't think we're going to rank these six together as one. But I think there's an argument to say that we should. But I'm not going to say we're going to. That's our ranking, Jeff. It is. And that's going to do it, Jeff. For falling towards apotheosis, next week, We are watching literally, I don't know why we're doing this again.

[49:18] The worst episode of the entire series in the long night. No, wait, that was the long dark. This is the long night. It's the long something. No, it's not the worst. Jeff, what do you remember about this episode? The thing I remember the most about this episode has nothing to do with the episode itself, but it was a YouTube comment where somebody said something about like, this is going back maybe end of season three ish. And they were like well this is something whatever in the long night and i was like oh my god the long dark was such a bad episode this has got to be like you've got to be joking that they went back to this construction like the long night is that even worse than the long dark like come on this there's no way it would do this i have to be honest that in the scope of these six, these next two episodes are the exact same episodes in my head is this where they kill Cartagia, I think maybe it might be the, I don't remember.

[50:11] All I remember is I loved this episode, but I couldn't tell you a single specific thing out of it because I'd probably be talking about into the fire, but I might not be. What do you remember about this one? Same thing. I remembered about the last three episodes. It's awesomeness. It's I couldn't tell you what happens. Is this the episode where Cartagia dies? Cause in my head that shouldn't happen until episode six. I know. I think it might be six. I don't, you know, I, I do know. I do remember that episode six. It's probably the single best 45 minutes of television I've ever seen. Yep. Potentially. It really is. And it couldn't be that without the work of episodes one, two, three, four, and five. So what happens in this? This might be the episode where Cartagia dies. Maybe.

[50:49] We'll find out, right? I don't know. I'm going to love it, whatever it is. Although I will say it does seem that the last two episodes maybe we didn't love as much.

[50:58] It shot them out of our memory said we loved them more than we actually did. And then reality is coming back to catch up with us. It's confirmed by our council chambers that Cartagia dies in next week. Thanks for the spoilers, guys. Jeez. Hey, you gave a spoiler warning. It's fine. Just throw that out there, why don't you? We're in a spoiler zone.

[51:18] Basically, we're in the water park of spoilers at this point. And what makes this super exciting this time around, though, Brent, this week, is we're all going to find out what happens next week and maybe be a little bit surprised about it. So make sure that you've subscribed to us wherever you're watching or listening so you don't miss this one. Uh, like a comment on it, rate it, do all those sorts of things. If you've got the time and the means head over to our Patreon page, patreon.com slash bad nerds. There's a link in the show notes for that. But like, we have a ton of stuff on there. We've unedited versions of this show that you're watching right now, full and unedited versions of Stargate SG one. For the first time, we have individual reactions we've done on other shows. There's a ton of content on there. Plus at our Council Chambers tier, you get invited to our recordings and could be a part of the show, just like our incredible group that's with us here tonight. If you really want to help, though, and the Patreon isn't an option for you and you've already commented, you've already subscribed and done all that stuff, would you share this episode? Share it with somebody who doesn't want to love and revel in Babylon 5 for the first and second time. So until that time, until the long night comes along. For Brent, I am Jeff. Hey, Jeff. Yeah, what's up? Hey, do a.

[52:36] Do you do you know do i know what do you know what happens next, cartagia dies in the next episode dude just a second ago you were saying it where's the spoiler warning on this thing dude i warned you about spoiler warnings in this episode get the hell out of this galaxy i mean we're not some some deep space franchise this station is about something.