Conflicts of Interest | For the Second Time

[0:44] The year is 2026. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And my name is Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, but then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed. So now we're watching this incredible series for the second time because Babylon 5 is a series that you get to watch for the first time twice. But we're still searching for those sci-fi messages, the things that hold up a mirror to society, give us hope that things can be better in the future. It just shows how to be better human beings to one another. That being said, real talk. If this is your first time here, welcome. Every episode is somebody's first time, and we are glad you made this one yours, unless you're a first-time watcher. Not here of the bad nerds, but of Babylon 5. If you've never seen Babylon 5, this is your warning to get off. Not of Babylon 5, but to get off this show for right now. In fact, stay on this show. Just go back up to the first watch because that one is completely spoiler-free. Jeff and I have been through this series. We know exactly where this is going. We know exactly what's going to happen, which means anything from any point in the timeline, in-universe, out-of-universe, canon, non-canon, whatever, it's all fair game for Jeff and I to talk about. We will be talking about it, so consider yourself warned. I find myself duly warned, and I'll see you later.

[2:08] I've never seen it before. I don't want spoilers. That'd be a twist on the show, wouldn't it? We're going to do Babylon 5 for the second time, but neither of us have seen it for the first time. That's why I'm going to start my own podcast called Voice of the Resistance, which, Brent, happens in the episode we're watching today called Conflicts of Interest. When we actually did watch this the first time, it's a real thing that happened. We played a game where we predicted what was going to be, the next episode was going to be about based on the title alone. What did you predict that this episode was going to be about? I said that this was going to be –.

[2:44] The smugglers remember when uh vanova was uh shaking down the smugglers and once it wasn't the last episode two episodes ago was uh racing mars yeah it was two episodes ago and uh they're gonna they're gonna have a conflict between what they agreed to do and basically their own personal jobs right and they're gonna have to decide that because turns out that that can't just be a throwaway thing yeah there's no way we have to see that like they're gonna come back and play a major role right absolutely so that that's that's what it's got to be um they're trying to figure out if they actually want to be a part of this new thing that's going on with babylon five what'd you say jeff i said this is going to be set to the voice of the resistance, ivanova is going to be out there podcasting to the galaxy which is going to pique the interest of a specific individual if you remember malcolm biggs from season one ivanova's old flame And I figured Malcolm Biggs and Home Guard were going to make their way back onto Babylon 5. You're a good guesser, Jeff. Oh, thank you. Thank you. So that's what we thought might happen. Why don't we take a look, not just at what really happened, but also what we said about this the first time around.

[3:58] Previously on Babylon 5 for the first time. Conflicts of interest. This was a rollercoaster ride episode for Garibaldi. Right. I loved him reuniting Dude and his daughter. I hated him making it personal with Zach. I loved him being honest with his feelings, about his feelings with Lise. But I hated him blatantly violating rules and regs. I loved him being incredible at his job.

[4:25] Honestly, I kind of don't care about him and Sheridan so much anymore. The best thing that can happen to Garibaldi right now is he leaves Babylon 5, goes and does his job somewhere else. I seriously hope that this is just serving the purpose of connecting Garibaldi to Edgar's. What I do not want to see is Garibaldi and Lise try to have a thing together. I do not want to see them falling in love and then something happens to her husband and now Garibaldi is coming in to take over. I don't want to see any of that. just i'm okay if she really doesn't show back up and it's really garibaldi and edgar's zach was great for him in this episode he needs to come back and apologize to zach that was awful of garibaldi to do that to him and lay that on him and put a guilt trip on him that just is completely unfair and i'm just going i hope that's not true garibaldi i hope that's whatever the program is his programming is going on. Zathras. Because Zathras, Jeff, is like the Spanish Inquisition. No one expects the Zathras. I loved Zathras. I didn't much care for Zathras, but I loved Zathras. And it's great every time he shows up. I hope this is not his last show on Dumb on Life. This didn't need to be Zathras. There was no particular point to have Zathras in here, except for pure, we love Zathras, let's put him in his face. It was great. It was fun, though. It was the highlight of the episode. Then we got Sheridan trying to offer his services.

[5:54] Londo and Jakar were in a room together. And they were speaking civilly. From an agreement, as small as that, great things can come and grow. Sure. And so that community building that Delenn was talking about last week, he's putting into action. It really hit me where you got a Centauri, you have a Narn, And Sheridan standing between them just being like, guys, we gotta come together. There's bigger stuff than any of us. And he was making a very compelling argument, but they listened. That's a big deal. That's Sheridan being awesome. Come together right now over me. Hey, you know what that song's about? What is that about? Like there's, so there's four verses. How many members of the Beatles were there? Uh, five, but four that people actually count.

[6:45] Each verse is about, it's, it's about the members. Like the first verse is about Zathras. And then the second verse is about Zathras. And then the third one is, you know, Zathras. And then the fourth one's Zathras, man. I got to tell you, I get so annoyed. Every thread on Reddit at some point devolves into exactly that. Oh, not Zathras, but Zathras. And hearing myself say it there, I'm just like, oh, my God. Stop making the joke. Stop. Stop. It's not helping the joke by continuing to tell the joke all the time. I hear every word you're saying, and I summarily reject it. Which everyone does. I'm the odd man out here who's like, too much Zathras. Or whatever, but you know, like I said last week, we can all think differently about things and doesn't necessarily mean that you're wrong. Yes. And by the way, uh, Dylan, our Dylan, who so graciously edits all those recap videos for us, um, has apologized for being the one who set me off singing to which I say Dylan, that is not nearly enough of an apology at all. You should be so sorry for making me sing. I think you owe everybody. I don't think that she's nearly as sorry as we are that that happened.

[8:04] Well.

[8:05] We're going to see the origin of this joke that's going to happen. There's a lot of Garibaldi stuff in there that came up that I don't really remember, especially with him and Zach and stuff. Actually, I remember. I remember. Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. Remember last week when I was like, yeah, tell me what happened in this episode because I don't remember. I hear all that and I'm like, oh, yeah, now I got this one. Okay. All right. So what do you say we dive into it? Let's get into it. So what's about to happen is we're going to open up the episode. We're going to bring it up here. We're going to watch it. You're going to watch it with us. We're all going to be sitting down watching Conflicts of Interest together. The difference is Brent and I are going to be talking pretty much through the whole episode saying, oh, look at that. Look at that. What do you think about this? Oh, I think that about that. Why do you don't think you're wrong? I think this through the whole thing. We may pull in some messages, all those kinds of things. We're going to edit the version on YouTube. So it's kind of like one of those reaction videos that you see, uh, the unedited version with all of this stuff, the silences. And then some of those like run-ons or fun conversations that maybe didn't make the cut for whatever reason for YouTube. Those are all available on our Patreon page at patreon.com slash bad nerds. Hey, listen, if you're listening to us on an audio podcasting platform, don't worry. We got you covered. You're going to be there for every bit of those conversations that happen. And we might even give you some stuff in there to help give you context about what we're saying. So, Jeff, why don't we dive into this episode? Accessing file.

[9:29] Dear Baldy, I got your message. Okay, fine. So another pointless meeting. I love this whole interaction.

[9:35] I'll call you if I find out anything, all right?

[9:38] It's like that reminder that Garibaldi's awesome. More money, more information. The same old questions over and over. Turn around. Turn around. Every now and then my daughter comes so much closer and I give her a hug. Turn around. Sorry, Dylan, that one was not your fault. Are you all right, baby? Why didn't you tell me? Because then I wouldn't have been able to see this. Cousin is a sick individual. Which reminds me, I've got your bill here somewhere. You paid money to find me? Uh, Mr. Garibaldi, there seems to be an error. What are you talking about? I've never overcharged anybody in my life. No, no, no, the bill. It's one-third your fee. See, Mester still let him be awesome. They still don't tell anyone. That's called being a human being. What's wrong about you, Garibaldi? Yeah.

[10:29] Rammstein's going to be like, why were you being so nice? We're not nice. We're the bad guys. Why don't we wait until it gets a little quieter, then we'll have a little talk with Mr. Garibaldi. Watching these credits, I'm like, Veer? I miss Jakar. Yeah, I'm like, who are these alien people? I don't recognize. Yeah, who's that guy? They're saving them. They got to save them, right? Yeah. Because they can only get them like 13 episodes a season. And we're doing the Earth stuff. They would just distract from the Earth stuff. There are several hundred unpleasant things I've been avoiding doing since I got back from Zahadu. They're mostly the things that are my job. I checked Mr. Garibaldi's file. When he resigned as chief of security, regulations required that he turn in his link, his identicard, and his weapon. This has not been done. Why? I'm just saying. Sheridan is speaking like a man who has lost his woohoo. He is, isn't he? Mm-hmm. Now, Dylan's been gone, what? Eight hours? A couple of days? Maybe a few hours? She left in the morning?

[11:30] Like, dude. I just don't know what to do with myself. Right? So he's just going to be a jerk to everybody. I have existential defeat that I got to deal with here. I hate to boil it down to that, but that's what he's coming across as to me right now. There is no reason for him to do this to Garibaldi right now. So correct. Also, this should have happened to Garibaldi weeks ago. Sure. But there's no reason for it to suddenly happen right now and to get all demanding about it right now. Yeah. Agreed. Also, I agree with what we both said in our first watch. He should handle this one. It is unfair for him to send this over to Zach. Although maybe not because it is Zach's job. So I want to work because I thought through that. I'm just like.

[12:16] It makes sense for sheridan to do this also he knows that there's already conflict like he's just going to walk in the room and it's going to be escalated so okay it's a zach thing but also like is it a zach thing because it's kind of you know this actually it is a zach thing because he should have done it weeks ago zach's the one that made the call to not do it yes sheridan should have like been like hey did this thing happen but it was zach's job he's the one who needs to do this uh you know that's the thing i was actually just saying i was like actually no i think this is zach's job and sheridan's doing the right thing but to suddenly just be pushing him now for no real apparent reason this is this is where sheridan needs to call zach and be like hey so this thing happened we need to talk to him and like that like sheridan is pushing hard on this rather than just being like yeah we gotta we actually gotta do that yeah i would be like this needs to happen um i'm concerned it didn't happen before but we'll we're not worried about that now, I don't think Sheridan's concerned at all that it didn't happen before. I know. Sheridan knows why it didn't happen. Maybe he's going to come back. Zach didn't know that he was actually the new full head of security and had to do this to his former boss. That's a good point. Like he wasn't there. And then so much time has gone on without anything ever actually being mentioned about it.

[13:34] What's the big deal? Do we think that this is where we are? Are we are we past that spot? Like this is where Sheridan is coming. Like, hey, listen, I know we thought maybe he'd be coming back and we were kind of extending some grace. But look, he's not.

[13:47] And we need to exit interview him. Yeah. So when do you think you can have this done? And that's it. Exactly. Be like, oh, I can take care of that this afternoon. Also, if I did it, bad stuff would happen. And this is your job. And that's a great call-up for a guy to be like, hey, no, no, actually, this is your job now. Like this head of security thing, this is you. And I'm going to put you to this. Because honestly, if it's me, then bad stuff's going to happen. Captain, can I ask, why the rush? There you go. Just because? I don't like the company he's been keeping. I told you, Delenn's gone. I have nothing left to do but ruminate on all this stuff. I like what you've done with the place, Susan. Stephen, welcome to the Voice of the Resistance When did you get back? About an hour ago By contrast Franklin is acting like somebody who's just got his woohoo You know? I was just hanging out I wanted to see what she was up to, Commander Sinclair. The point, the ISN uses tachyon relay stations to boost the signal through hyperspace. Tachyon relay. Without that, signals would take years to get from Earth to here. What about Epsilon 3? I feel like Franklin's one of us.

[15:02] He's the one in every situation brings up Epsilon 3. And I think he's talking about it now when they had all the wounded Narn and stuff coming. When they needed to hide people. He's like, what about the planet literally right below us? and everyone's like, what are you even talking about? It's the only one who's kept tabs on it. I spend a lot of time looking around. There's enough power. Physics break. The messages use tachyon particles to carry.

[15:25] That's an interesting concept. Okay. Way better than the idea of subspace. Okay. Do you know what a tachyon is? Like in real life? Do you know what tachyons are? I don't. Okay. First of all, they're a theoretical particle. We don't know that they actually exist. But basically, they're particles that travel.

[15:42] The minimum speed they travel is the speed of light and they actually go faster. Because of that – so for us on this side of the speed of light, the closer you approach speed of light, the slower time goes to outside observers, right? To you, everything is happening just all at the exact same time. The idea of a tachyon is those are particles on the other side of the speed of light where the slowest they could possibly go – is the speed of light and so they go forward and so the the concept of a tachyon is for tachyons time actually moves backwards oh which is why which is why tachyons and sci-fi everywhere are always associated with time travel so the idea that you're using a tachyon particle to carry messages that would otherwise take years because literally it's like the message is already there before we send it. Yeah. Because it's got a, like, it's an interesting, you know, effect preceding the cause type situation for where that goes. Anyway, I'm just, it's got my brain spinning. I'm like, how would that actually work? It's also from like a propaganda standpoint, because it sounds like I could send a message, I could do a thing and then send a message justifying the thing before I did the thing, but after I did the thing. Because I could have already happened.

[16:58] Or by the way it is tachyons that we use to send our to to use and go talk to joe that's the thing okay yeah that's that's i i know you just know that we're doing it you don't know how that's actually how we're doing i figured it was chronitons no no no that's ridiculous that's just dumb sci-fi that's dumb stupid star trek stuff yeah tachyons is really where it's at okay that makes sense yeah you could do that i said bringing you all the news before it happens Only a complete fool would fail to see that. Spaceballs, the news. Absolutely obvious. Scares the hell out of me sometimes, but I do like it. Just don't tell her that. Exactly. How do you like her? Right. Although you're kind of cool these days, so I might be okay with it. Although that guy's like, do I need to call HR? Hey, chief. Well, not so good. Yeah, it was going well until this morning. Captain sent me to talk to you. It is entirely inappropriate for Garibaldi to argue this. Yep. And Garibaldi should understand that. He does, which is why he has a second one strapped around his ankle right now. True. And Zach knows it. up well dang anything else no that'll do it.

[18:20] So garibaldi watching this particular looney tunes episode this is from the episode duck a muck oh no really yep okay it's about daffy being manipulated and toyed with by vast and powerful forces in this case bugs bunny but it's just very much garibaldi i love it all right enough is enough this is a final the very very last draw who is responsible for this funny how it's cute and funny when it's bugs not so much when it's bester your timing sucks shuttle one you are cleared for atmospheric insertion roger that cnc so this upcoming scene with her and zathras i want to watch really closely jms says it was a one shot with no flubs and they used the first take between the two of them interesting yeah okay our draw is very busy have had four ground quakes on other side of planet covering all possibilities.

[19:24] Does not want you being confused. Confused. Wait, wait, wait a minute. You're not supposed to be here. We left you a thousand years in the past. No. No, no, no. No, no. Ha, ha, ha, ha. No, you did not meet Zathras. You met Zathras. Let's try this again. As you wish. Zathras came with us to Babylon 4. As you wish. Zathras stayed in the past with Valor. There are ten of us. All of family Zathras. Each one named Zathras. Slight differences in how you pronounce Zathras, Zathras. You are seen now. There are ten of you? Yes. What can Zathras be doing for you? Because this isn't just the two actors. This is also your cameraman, your lighting grips, like everybody. Your sound guys. Always coming to Zathras with problems. Ha, ha, ha, ha.

[20:20] This almost feels like somebody other than Tim Choate playing Zathras. Well, because it's a different Zathras. So JMS, as he was writing this up, said he would have loved to do a Zathras TV show. Yeah. But validating good old Jeff's view here, he said it would never work because after 10 minutes, you'd want to beat the lead character to death with a shovel. You know i said in my in my recap that i hoped this wasn't the last time we saw of zathras we know this is the last time we see zathras we got the perfect amount of zathras exactly yes not too much not too little i think we got just the right amount to make you just want more and not want to murder him either unless your name is mega in which case apparently you do.

[21:13] All right that is impressive that that was a one-shot take that was very yeah, garibaldi needs to nope out right now just nope and walk away yeah except everything he wants is to talk to her right now we've got a good life here we've got history, You've met this Sinclair character twice, and now you're off to Babylon 5. Just like that. You know, one of the things about this is it just shows that Garibaldi has kind of always, or at least for a couple years, been looking for his head. It's at least Hampton to Edgar's. If there's one thing I've learned, as soon as you start talking about the end or start talking about moving on, in your head, you're making those moves already. You're already there. It's not long before you actually fully – or perhaps it shouldn't be long before you – Yeah, it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be a, hey, I've made this decision, and then I'm going to string you along for like 18 months trying to get you to like do things and saying I'm doing things. And that's – yeah, that's not the way to do it.

[22:18] All things come to an end. Yes. Right? I remember the NFL podcast that I was on. it took me probably close to a year and a half, maybe two years before. Like I started talking about, okay, there's going to come a day when I'm out. I'm not going to be here anymore. I kind of, do I want to keep doing this? Do it? Like I had started having all those questions, you know, and it took me about two years to get to a spot where I was ready to walk away from it. But for those two years, I was not fully as in as I should have been. And it was the, the, The more we went, the more wildly successful it was. Like I felt trapped by the success of the show. Like it was so hard to walk away from. And the stuff we were doing was incredible. The access to stuff we were getting was phenomenal. So I would say that would be an interesting thing to do on a third watch, not here on this show, but just for personal reasons. From season two to season four, watch for where Garibaldi is kind of not necessarily in all the way. Lee's telling him to go away and that she's married and having to, of his stuff, that's what kept him. Yeah, exactly. Although it's a pretty definitive no.

[23:32] Sure, but what else would he have done in that moment? So you want to tell me what happened, or shall I just make something up and see if it fits? But once he finally got a reason to leave, and had an option to go to, he's a decent, caring man. How does someone like her just run into and meet William Edgars? Now, it's Lease Hampton Edgars. They meet in the fruit aisle at the grocery store? Yeah, just shot me. Your husband's name is Bill. How come she doesn't have her other husband's name? Like, what was his last name? Everything's shut. You two ready? Couldn't be readier. More ready. I said yes. He doesn't have to be such a jerk. Like, I get being hurt or confused or whatever, but you don't gotta be a jerk. So how much of that is actually him versus how much of that is still the stuff from Bester? I think it's him. It's quite astonishing. He's very bitter about it. Who are these guys? What is this? We've never seen them before. I'm surprised they're even talking. They're not even human. I need you both in here for this. What's happening?

[24:32] By now, both of you have heard of the raids against commercial transports along the borders of the non-aligned worlds. Then they won't be involved in military campaigns. Border wars. That's not their mandate. You are playing a dangerous game, Captain. That's why I called you here. It's got great intent. Everyone knows. And to allow this would be a sign of weakness or a signal that it's time to put our differences behind us and try to build something for a change. Look, it's easy to come together for a common enemy. Now our job is to come together for a common goal. We talked about this the first time, so I'm not going to dive into it so deeply, but that's such a profound statement. You know, how easily we unite against a common enemy, but we are so bad at uniting for a common goal. We can unite against a thing, but not for a thing. So I was just thinking that and let's go ahead and have this conversation since we're stopped. Okay. Now, the way I wrote it was it's easy to come together against a common enemy. Now it's time to come together for a common goal. Jeff, what's he doing here? What's Sheridan doing right now? Building a community.

[25:40] He's doing actually what Dylan told him to do. But that's a really good roadmap to how you rebuild. Okay. I don't think it's any – I don't think it's any stretch of the imagination to say that our world and even our own country, and I'm sure other people could probably say something similar about their own countries, maybe not all but some, are more divided than they've ever been or at least it feels like that. It feels like it at least, yeah. I know here it really feels like it's like – 51, 49, like we're pretty down the middle with stuff, which is kind of – and those two sides seem to be getting further and further apart.

[26:19] And the leaders of the two sides basically do the – oh, they're the enemy. That's the enemy.

[26:27] They rally their people against a common enemy. Against, yes. The common enemy, right? But I know the question on so many people's minds is – and Dillon, who lives in the UK, says the UK is very divided and it's getting worse. How do we build those bridges back? How do we come back? Because your other answer is each side keeps getting more powerful until one can literally just obliterate the other side. Then you have a monopoly in government, and we know monopolies aren't good in any situation. It's just not, right? The power is in our diversity as people. Right. As a nation, yes, but also as a world. That's the community. Okay. This is how.

[27:11] You know what doesn't work? That we're just not going to play the game anymore. As much as I would love for that to be the thing, that doesn't work in the real world. You know what does work in the real world, though? Bringing people together for a common goal, right? Right. Hey, uh, super far right people. Hey, super far left people. You, you guys have been split over a lot. How about we come together for a common goal? Start there. What is the goal that we can come together over? You know, um, that's the thing to find. That's how we build community. It's come together for a common goal. And that common goal can't be to be against something. Yeah. Our common goal is to get rid of those people. Yeah. That's not how it works. The common goal is what is a thing? And I like that using far right, far left as the example. What is a thing we both want?

[28:04] Because there's something. There's going to be something. What is it? And that's the trick. This is a security override. Cancel all identicard and station clearances belonging to Michael Garibaldi. Wherever Garibaldi gets caught right now, that's his fault. A hundred percent. Yes. Also, why didn't Zach do that the first time? Because if he's got two guns, right? Yeah. Or just, dude, you're so right. We have a procedure in my office that when someone departs good, bad, or indifferent, the step one is to deactivate their badge. Whether we've retrieved it or not, just deactivate it. I'll never forget when the Tampa Bay Buccaneers fired Tony Dungy. He went to the building. His card wouldn't work. There's a video of somebody for the Jets. I forget who the player was, but he's walking up to the building and he tries to do a security card and it won't work. And he's like, I guess they cut me. That's how he found out he got cut was because his card wouldn't work. Sure enough, they called him in and said, bring in your playbook. Babylon 5 needs off-boarding procedures. I think they have them, they just didn't follow them. I don't like meeting out in the open like this. This stuff is extremely difficult to produce. What's in that container is the product of five years hard work and cost half a million credits. Is being a telepath. So I had orders to only give it to Mr. Edgar's I like Garibaldi doing that math in real time. Like, oh, we are not safe here. That's an interesting little move. Nah, nah, nah, it was you.

[29:33] Watch Garibaldi. Specifically as he stands up. We can't afford... Yeah, look, uh... I think we better get out of here. I don't like someone who looks who's starting to get. Hey, I know you. Dude, he just grabbed her by the elbow. Yep.

[29:46] Now, admittedly, when I first saw her look down, I thought she was like, what are you doing? No, it turns out she was just putting something in her pocket. Yeah. But still, like, he's on it. That's security officer Garibaldi. Nah, nah, nah. It was you. Peek-a-boo.

[30:08] He's got all the John McClane vibes right now, man. Why did Garibaldi not shoot? It's kind of weird. It's like... Was that guy a telepath and Garibaldi just had a glitch from whatever Bester put in his head? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, because I've always assumed, and I think they actually say, like, he just can't harm Bester. He could harm anybody else, including other telepaths, right? Yeah. I think that's what, yeah. That shouldn't be the case, right? You were so scared you were broadcasting all over the place. They couldn't help but pick it up. Drowned out everything I was thinking. That guy is... That's gotta be. That's the only way they could have known where we were going. Looks like cyanide travel. Yeah.

[30:44] Well this is awkward jeff you have weapons training right yeah some okay i i have none for the record the only i've been to the shooting range a few times a lot of fun i'm fan for it it is fun you're you're particularly law enforcement somebody comes in unexpectedly from around the corner you've got your weapon in your hand you turn around that person is holding a gun pointed at you what do you do a procedure would tell you to not shoot they tell you to say for law enforcement really the steps that you have to go through is law enforcement my understanding i'm not trained in law enforcement weapons handling but my understanding is that you lots has to happen before you can legally discharge your weapon i would love to know from somebody or multiple people from multiple places in law enforcement specifically what do you do in that situation because i would think you turn around you see somebody holding a gun pointed at you.

[31:43] That's immediate life-threatening you shoot to kill i would that's what i would think no talking no nothing you just go i kind of hope i'm wrong but i don't think i am maybe i'm not i'm sure in practice they just shoot i mean that's what would happen and that might be what i'm thinking you know but i i really would love to know because i don't i don't know this one i don't know um send emails i would love to i would just what what are the actual procedures that are prescribed in that situation because my point being garibaldi walking around the corner with his gun drawn pointed out does not necessarily stay the hand of somebody else although it looks great on tv a very long day mr garibaldi sheridan just you operate on the station at my sufferance i can shut you down if i choose to do so i mean garibaldi is brainwashed and programmed to make all this awful and whatever. But wow, Sheridan is just throwing gas on that fire at every opportunity. Like I said, he seems like he's a little pent up.

[32:44] Lease Hampton. Not Lease Hampton, Edgar's? Lease Hampton. So you're saying there's a chance. Right? No, that's all over. Don't do it. Delete message. Oh, sad day. Just let it go. That is, wow. Everybody's just dumb in this episode. Yes, agreed. You handled yourself well under pressure, and you saved the life of my wife. I remember the first time thinking that Edgar's is actually Bester. Oh, yeah? This is all a big setup sort of thing. Rich man using his power and his money to get around the rules. This is Commander Susan of Honora of Babylon 5. And this is the first official broadcast of the new voice of the Resistance. And the truth is back in business.

[33:30] If I want to tell people that they've been getting a line of BS about all of us, I don't know that I would have a person who's left Earth. You know, it'd be like Sheridan showing up and being like, hey, everything you're hearing isn't true. Just believe me. Ivanova's one degree from Sheridan. Yeah. It makes sense to us watching, but I don't know that she's a reliable narrator for anyone else. Well, I mean, only for the people who believe her stuff. I was actually just thinking that like should misinformation, should people that broadcast and put out misinformation be allowed to do so like direct and distinct falsehoods, right? Yeah.

[34:11] Should, should you be allowed to actually put out there that Tylenol causes autism when that is factually proven incorrect? Should you be allowed to do that? No. It's why we have the regulations that we have. Okay. Should you be allowed to go out and say so-and-so actually won the election and the whole thing was rigged? Should you be allowed to make the accusation or state that it happened? State that it happened. No. But morally, should we be allowed to do that? Morally? Should people stop us, should the government, should laws prevent people from getting on microphones or getting in front of cameras or printing stuff and saying things that are factually untrue? It's not just their opinion, but stating things as fact that are factually untrue. So I'll say morally, we should not do that. It's a huge can of worms. So I'm curious where you're going because like this really quickly turns into a thing of just like what we talked about a little bit last week. What determines if a thing is a fact or factually true? If you can't put out things that aren't factually true without a heading, you know, or whatever, this is fiction or whatever, pretty much every religious text that exists exists.

[35:32] Couldn't be written or shared. There are some people who believe that the earth is flat. Yeah, there are. Should they be allowed to get out and publish their findings and publish their beliefs? And they're going to state it for a fact that the earth is flat. That's how they're going to phrase it. And they believe it. They actually, it's not just that they're spreading misinformation and knowing that they're lying. They truly believe it. It's a complicated question. Okay. Here's where I'm getting with that. Yeah. What Ivanova's doing is... Is no different than a flat earther getting out and putting out their, their, their findings in their quote unquote set of facts. Okay. How so? So there's whatever's happening on earth and she's just coming in stating the truth is here. You've heard all this other stuff and that's all BS. This is the actual truth. This is what you've got to listen to. This is what's really happening. And she really believes that that is the president Clark arranged for the, for the murder of Santiago.

[36:34] That's not known fact. That's not been proven in court. Now we know that there's evidence that suggests that we know that that's what happened because we're the viewers and we've been exposed to that. Right. We know that Ivanova actually is right on this one, but to the wider community, she's not. Well, that's what I think some hokey conspiracy theorist way out yonder in some weird, very far away thing that frankly doesn't really affect my day to day life. I think we end up in the same place we were in lines of communication of just what what is the truth? What is the facts? You know, I mean, we because we in the last episode, I had a lot of problems with Franklin trying to make the case for Sheridan, the Mars resistance, trusting Sheridan. because we know a lot of stuff about Sheridan. There's no reason for them to know, right? Like all the stuff with the shadow war and everything else, they're probably peripherally aware there was a conflict, but they don't know all the other stuff that happened. And here we are privy to the fact that Ivanova is correct. What you are being told by ISN is completely fabricated and false.

[37:44] But they don't know that. So they're going to come at her and say, you can't say this because it's not true. But she's going to come at them and say, well, you can't say what you're saying because it's not true. Who's right in the eyes of the public and in the court of public opinion? In this case, it's the it's ISN and the Clark regime that is wrong. They are the ones that are morally wrong.

[38:04] Yeah, they have been. I mean, we have objective evidence that they've been stretching the truth, creating the truth, fabricating things. There there is um yeah i i the thing is is i think you have to you have to allow that sort of stuff to be out there you have you can't like you have you have the only thing you can do is just present the other side like the only moral thing is okay yeah tylenol causes autism that's what you're going to say you're going to present your findings okay here's literally everything that says that's, pardon my language so i think here's you know here's where it gets different if i state definitively tylenol causes autism full stop.

[38:48] That is wrong. You cannot do that. If I say, I've conducted these scientific experiments utilizing these control methods, and I can publish my findings and my abstract that state, that give me reason to believe that Tylenol causes autism, that's okay. Because then someone else can say, well, here's all of the evidence that I have that says it does not. Or here's all the flaws in your methodology there. Yeah. Like there's an actual conversation. We're not going to sit here and argue, does Tylenol cause autism or not? We're going to argue, do you have a scientifically, factually sound argument here? Yes or no. And if you don't, then you don't get to say the thing, right? But I think if someone says, I have this theory, I have this belief, and I have these things to back it up. Cool. I would agree that if you're going to get out and say something, right, and you're going to say something as definitive fact. Again, this is where I think you should be allowed to get out and say that sort of stuff. I also think that you should be accountable and and be fully bet with the consequences of the things you say.

[39:52] And so if you're going to say it, you better come correct. So if you're going out and you're saying Tylenol causes autism, and especially if you've got a big old microphone and big old platform, then you better be ready for the lawsuit from the makers of Tylenol unless you can prove it. Yes. You know, you should be ready for the consequences of really what's about to come at you. But I think – so yeah, legally, yeah, it's totally sound.

[40:23] Right. But it's the other consequences, the ripple consequences. Like the person not medicating their child because they've been given this misinformation and the kid dies. Or the kid does develop a permanent disability because they're not treated in a way like where does that person get held accountable for that i mean they get sued by tylenol cool oh gosh whatever there's still real harm that has happened because of that misinformation and they should be liable for that harm that comes from their statements i.e alex jones and the stuff he said about sandy hook i'm gonna call him straight out yeah also he was nominally held accountable and in word only and nothing actually happened and it was all kind of a big stupid show well i mean they i mean they he he had stuff against him and it shut down something for him but he's still on the air with something else now so yeah he lost nothing from that yeah yeah but but that's that's my point is that the my point in being here what ivanova is doing really is no different for the folks back on earth or for the other half because all she's doing is getting out saying here's the truth we're gonna we're gonna be the ones that put out the truth all that other stuff you're hearing that's not the truth we are the truth it's the same thing we saw with franklin in the mars resistance again yes guys took us down in the mars riot the food riots and we this that's just two opposing viewpoints.

[41:50] This is true. No, that's a lie. This is true. So, so, and, and Nia points out and I'm, I I'm not fact-checking this for Nia, so I'm just putting out what Nia is saying, right? Nia is saying that The Onion now owns the InfoWars IP and its website, and it's directly because of those lawsuits with Alec Jones. And the money from that purchase went to the victims. So a little more than nominal, Jeff? No, it's still totally nominal in show. That didn't impact him in any way. Those were his businesses, and he's just had other – he felt zero negative impacts and is doing just fine because we're a thing that uses corporations and shadows and legalese or whatever. Yeah. Some people got compensated a couple bucks. I mean, more than a couple bucks. Someone made some pretty good. But he's fine. There was no accountability for him as a person. Well, I mean, what are we going to throw him in jail because of it? Maybe. No. You and I both have very clearly stated what our opinions are of jail, and that would be a no. That would be a no.

[42:50] But, yeah, I hear what you're saying. But like this is what I'm saying makes sense. And the only reason why we're OK with it is because we know she's actually saying the truth in this case. But to the average listener out there, the average person in the ship, all he can do is he can hear what Ivanova is saying. He can hear what the official word is from the Earth force. And then he has to pick which one he believes, which I think gets down to the thing. Show me the proof. Show me the thing. Right. But that's how you get people on the side of Tylenol causes autism or not.

[43:24] I can't go do the research and the studies. Frankly, I can't even read the research and the studies because it's written in so much technical mumbo-jumbo. I'm not going to understand it anyway.

[43:34] So I hear this person talk about it or I hear Dr. Nock talk about it and tell me why that's an absolutely idiotic and dumb idea and debunking everything that they're saying. I get to choose. Do I listen to RFK Jr. Or do I listen to Dr. Nock? By the way, I listen to Dr. Nock. Which gets, honestly, I mean, it's not in this episode, but it's more the root cause of, The problem is here that we've created a culture that deprioritizes education and critical thinking. Oh, say that again. We've created a culture that deprioritizes education and critical thinking. Whoa, say that again. This person with a title, let me be very clear and transparent on this. This old white man said this thing about it, so I believe it. But this other person who's an educated doctor who's been in the field says something completely different. Yeah. But this guy said it. I'm not going to – you want research? I did my own research. I watched other YouTube videos that people – yeah. That's the thing. People – I think everything you're saying – and we talked about this in Illusion of Truth. It all makes sense provided people have the ability to objectively consume information and make critical decisions around it. And I'm going to go out on a limb here and say 85% of at least our country is not capable of doing that. Here's the thing about the do your own research idea. I'm not going to say don't do your own research. You should go look it up. Yeah, right. You should go study it. But you know what every good research paper does?

[45:02] Cites its sources. If doing your own research means you now come back and you pontificate, you are to be discounted. If you come back and you begin to explain and you bring your sources, now we have something we can talk about. And to that point, a good research paper brings both sides. Yeah. By the way, you don't just have to do this in research paper. You can do this on social media. Here's the source of what I'm saying. Right. now we can talk about whether or not that's a trustworthy source or not but here's the source of what i'm saying yeah instead of just like here's the thing right right that's but my point still goes back to i'm thinking of the guy in the ship who's just flying around out there in space subspace somewhere you know or what what is it hyperspace hyperspace in this one and he picks up this transmission and are they going to be like oh that's stupid flat earther it's just you know that's just dumb. That's a conspiracy theorist out there. I think with their test pattern. Yes. Because it looks like a third grader put it together. Also, it is what test patterns look like.

[46:10] That's funny. I'm sorry. I see that thing pop up, especially with a little picture of Clark and stuff on it. I'm like, yeah, I'm out. I'm out. Yeah. And Katarina says it good sources, good news outlets bring sources from both sides. Yep. Exactly. They explore it all the way through. I don't know. I didn't mean for this to devolve into that conversation outside of really – I was trying to keep this in the realm of Babylon 5. What Ivanova is doing is kind of crackpot, man. Like that's the way it comes across, right? But that's what happens with resistance. And I think she should be – if I'm going to sit back and I'm going to say Ivanova is allowed to do that and Ivanova should be allowed to do that. Then I also have to say all these other people over here that I think are just bloomin' idiots also should be allowed to say their stuff. My friend, you got to put this on the 100% complete. And I want to remind you, Jeff, this is with no sources whatsoever, other than the sound of my voice, 100% completely accurate and definitive, a ranking of a second watch of Babylon five for the second time season four. Where does this episode go? Jeff, I'm going to stick in the bottom half, just making a guess here. Okay.

[47:28] Because I just don't think we're anywhere near the top five yet. Number six is the summoning. Seven is falling towards apotheosis. Eight, illusion of truth. Nine, lines of communication. Ten, epiphanies. Eleven, racing wars. I know exactly where I would put this. Jeff, I need you to close your comments section for a moment. All right. Give me a second to find the thing to do that. Done. I'm putting my – this is where I would place it. Okay. For those in the chat. This is fun. I want to hear where you're going to place it. I have gone on record with our council chambers who are here with us. You are uninfluenced by this because you haven't seen it. Right. So you, you place this one. Let's see if you are correct or incorrect. I feel this conflict between me ranking it how I want to, and then me guessing what you would have ranked so that I can match that. But I'm going to rank it where I want it. And it's actually, this is actually a pretty, pretty easy one for me. This was an interesting episode. And I think looking at it through the lens of what is to come, which is a big part of this second time watch, a lot of, especially the Lee's Hampton, Edgar's Franz stuff just carries so much more weight. Like there was some really cool seeds planted in this one. We really moved forward with a lot of the Garibald. Like this is real steps forward with, uh, with this storyline, but this is going to be our new number nine, right between the illusion of truth and lines of communication. All right jeff at your convenience after you're done officially adding that into our ranking i will let you open up your uh.

[48:55] Your comments and let's reveal where brent said was the correct what brent said was the actual correct ranking okay brent said the new number nine new number nine there you go look at that.

[49:10] Yes we rock oh my gosh we didn't plan that y'all we didn't plan that jeff that is going to do it for conflicts of interest we got another one on deck for next week as we're moving right along through season four through this lull of a deal but i agree with you this this has been the best of the lull so far yeah in my opinion you know and zathras helped with that quite a bit to be honest, frankly i love that you said that i love that you said that a one-er with ivanova and zathras like just the freaking talent that made that happen right i mean dude look zathras is great But Claudia having to act against that right in one shot and not laugh and not like all of that. Like what's that stuff? You don't know what that dude's going to bring, right? Like at any moment, especially when he starts the clicking noise that he does and all that sort of stuff. I, oh my God, I would lose it. Anyway, next week on deck rumors, bargains and lies. Jeff, do you want, first of all, remember what this is anywhere near about at all. And do you remember what you thought of this episode? Good episode, bad episode. Did you love it? Hate it? What, what do you remember from this one? You know, what's funny is I even just thinking about this episode now for the second time, I, I, cause this mirrors a lot of what happens in the fifth season when the drop start working through the Centauri to attack.

[50:31] Other places. And then Sheridan, you know, utilizing the ISA at that point to start, you know, trying to bring people together and basically how do we catch them in this thing? And that's what he's really doing in this episode as well. Telling people what they need to hear to get them into a place at the same time, ready to hear a certain thing and do certain things. I remember the thing I remember the most about this episode that really stands out to me is a scene of Sheridan in the council chambers with that like sunburst-y wall decoration behind him and just almost angelically standing in front of it as his whole plan kind of comes together and everyone's in that room at the same time ready to go. I have very fond memories of this episode, though I don't remember much outside of just him being like a little excited kid running around playing everybody in different ways trying to get him to do what he wants to do. What did you think of it? Well, if I remember right, this is the first episode of the Bimbari Civil War, or at least like it's where we kind of told that it's actually happening. Right yeah i don't think it's the actual civil war itself i think it's like this is a thing, there it is um i i honestly don't fully remember this one and and everything that happens again that we're in that spot where it all sort of runs together for me does yeah you know what i mean.

[51:47] So i feel like as each episode goes by that i am liking the lull a bit more and i'm still going to call this the lull but i feel like i'm liking it a little bit more each time as we go through So I, that, that's really kind of what I, what I, what I picked up. Yeah. That's, that's it. My guess is I probably, I don't know, our Dylan would know this. She's already done the, the, the recap for us for next week.

[52:13] My, my guess is that it's like, I liked it.

[52:16] I can't say i loved it but i but i probably really enjoyed it and liked it it would be my guess we're going to find out right here next week we're getting uh some information from nia in the council chambers chat this is the beginning of the minbari civil war we get naroon all right and all that stuff so yeah uh very exciting and more of a reason for you to make sure you're subscribed to our show that you're getting all the notifications that you're catching stuff as it comes out would love to read your comments around this your emails all the different things around the conversation we have just had. If you want to have access to our unedited content, all the other content that we put together, that's all available at our Patreon page. There's links in the show notes. We'd love to see you there. And if that's not a place that you can be right now and you still hear the calling of your heart and it is to help out our little show here, the best way you can do that is to share this show. Just tell somebody else about it and have them check out our first or second watch depending on where they are in their Babylon 5 journey. So until next week i'm a zathras uh yeah zathras what's up no no no i'm i'm not zathras it's zathras yeah that's exactly what i said zathras you you're just saying the same thing over and over again no no listen it is zathras i know zathras zathras zathras.

[53:44] Zathras i i know i'm it's zathras just like you said, would you listen to the words coming out of my mouth, Zathras. Zathras. No, no. You are Zathras. I am Zathras. Zathras. I know I'm Zathras. I know. I can say my own name, and I'm saying yours just perfectly fine. Zathras. Zathras. Zathras. Zathras. Zathras. I mean, we're not some deep space franchise. This station is about something.