Atonement | For the Second Time

[0:44] The year is 2026. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And my name is Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, and then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and everything changed. So now, we're watching this incredible program for the second time, because Babylon 5 is a show that you get to watch for the first time twice.

[1:14] That's right. But for the first time and the second time, we are searching this show for what it's trying to say. What are the messages that JMS was putting out there? What are the messages we're just picking up on? We're talking about things like mirrors to society, hope that things can be better in the future, or maybe those messages that just tell us how to be better human beings to one another. That being said, this is not Jeff and mine's first time watching this show. So we've been through it front to back, not back to front, but we've been through it, the whole thing, which means from this point forward, anything is fair game for Jeff and I to talk about anything from any point in the timeline, any point in the franchise, any point anywhere. It's all good for Jeff and I to discuss and we will be discussing it. So please consider this your one and only spoiler warning. You must now leave if you've not seen this show before. But good news, we have a first watch that's completely spoiler-free. Just scroll back up in the feed. You'll find that there. And that's where you now need to take this opportunity and excuse yourself. Because what's happening forward, trust us, you don't want to be spoiled. So this is it. From this point forward, everything else is fair. Why are you still here? Go! Go!

[2:30] This week, Brent, we were watching Atonement for the second time. On our first time around, we played a game where we'd predict what the episodes were going to be about. I predicted that this was going to be an episode where Earth Force was going to come and try and abduct Delenn, make her atone very publicly for influencing Sheridan.

[2:50] Do you remember what you predicted for this one? Yeah, I said this was going to focus on Marcus and basically be what he did before he became a ranger. Okay. Right? I think it wasn't in a couple episodes ago. We found out that it was him and his brother, and he was following in his brother's footsteps. We didn't get a lot of detailed information out of it. I figured this would be – he had some stuff that kind of came up, and it would be a lot of kind of Marcus's backstory is what I thought this would be. Which would be fun. They cover that in the novels, so that's cool, but I still think it'd be good in a TV thing. Do you, Brent, want to hear what we had to say about this one the first time around? I would love to. All right, let's do it. Previously on Babylon 5.

[3:36] Atonement i kind of love ducat i want that guy as a mentor he was cool he was confident he didn't he was wise for him to see that they're making a bad choice and heading down a bad path he did everything right so dylan really seems to think like she's not coming back dylan has a great line well what chance do i have if you've already made up your mind and he's like yeah that's up to you to figure out right that's on you we're here to tell you how you're wrong in the middle of her grief she says no mercy and then she comes back and says actually that was really stupid and the dude's like too late this is the show reference is the lynn has to atone i think it undercuts the leadership of delen you delen don't own this problem a whole bunch of other people voted to do it as well uh she usually presents this sort of mask of assurance but we the viewer have also constantly seen her doubt.

[4:31] She comes face to face in this episode with her most vulnerable and real self, and emerges from it, having truly become.

[5:12] We've been seating pretty much ever since Voice in the Wilderness, when we met Drawl, kind of talking about leading towards this collapse of Minbari society. And I think we're seeing some of that here. And I think it's going to collapse. I think it's going to get ugly. That's going to be part of season four. How permanent is this whole change with Garibaldi and Zack? Jerry doyle is leaving the series i think michael garibaldi is leaving the staff of babylon 5 is he going to be a bad guy i'm banking that he will be a bad guy in this season jakar they are 100 setting up this eye to be a thing in a future episode it's going to be like the camera that you just set somewhere and he's going to be able to see what's going on speaking of franklin he and marcus are getting sent away to mars to make contact with the resistance on mars he sings It's the major general song from the Pirates of Penzance. Yes. That is your end of the episode. You must sing. You didn't put this song on. I sang in this one. That's a good one. You should go back and hear me sing. It's terrible.

[6:14] Wanted Dukat as a mentor. Heck yes. I still want Dukat as a mentor. Give me a Dukat. Give me a Rabbi Kozlov. Like, line him up. Dude, what was the name of the black preacher guy from rock No Hiding Place? Black preacher guy. I forget his name. He'd be great, too. He'd be good, too. Brother Theo. There's so many great brothers. Take Brother Theo. You know who I don't want? Lorian. He's kind of creepy. Mm-hmm. Right? Or Jack the Ripper. Basically, anyone played by Wayne Alexander. No, thank you. You're right. Like, it's this thing, right? Right. But, dude, you said it, the eye. Yeah, buddy. We got to put that somewhere and see something later on, didn't we? Dude, that was so messed up. So, like, could you imagine? like that was played for laughs i i want to know what that was like i know what i felt just hearing myself say that knowing where that eye gets placed i want to know what people were like would they heard us say that back then like i wonder like if that's a thing for people like you know what he does with that eye or if people are more like let's just forget about that i think that's good.

[7:24] Little bit there you go there you go uh also the jerry jerry doyle stuff man you you nailed his arc pretty good there kind of yeah i mean at a high level he's a bad guy in like an episode or two like pretty pretty rough he's pretty he's pretty rough for mostly the rest of the season except for a couple of episodes and then he's even more rough through like the first three-fourths of season five big chunk of it yeah well brent that was had a lot to say the first time around, you want to uh dive in watch this for the second time no all right no desire thanks for coming everybody we will see you next oh of course we should this was a good episode yeah i remember being really good yeah let's do it let's do it what's about to happen is we're going to watch the episode bring it up watch it with you right here we'll comment on it uh any messages we happen to pull out any cool things that maybe Brent found some things JMS said that'll want to bring up in the moment. If you're watching this on YouTube, you're going to see the edited version of that, like a reaction video sort of a thing. The full and the unedited version is available at our Patreon at patreon.com slash badnerds.

[8:35] And if you guys are joining us on the podcasting app, stick around, because you're going to have all of that audio. We don't want you to miss a single thing. Like Steven Tyler, you don't want to miss a thing don't want to miss a thing that was not an invitation for you to sing oh dang it i'm just itching i got like the bug now from now you got the bug right well squash the bug uh yeah stick around and then when we get to the other side we'll obviously we'll still be there because jeff and i'm gonna have all sorts of conversations in the middle and we don't want to rehash it later and it wouldn't be good for you if we did that anyway so you'll you'll just get all that plus you'll get all the fun things where jeff and i get to just be dumb so yeah Yeah, which is a good perception of this. Jeff, what do you say we go be dumb right now? Let's go. Accessing file.

[9:29] Mr. Allen, you are now the head of security. The rest of the command staff accepted to lend... I love that he gets a uniform. Same. Like a proper uniform. I actually read that... I didn't even do research for this episode, so I don't know where I read this, but the only reason he got a uniform was one day he pops into JMS's office, and he's like, so, uh... His black uniforms are pretty cool, huh? JMS's like, yeah, yeah, they're pretty great. Can I have one? He's like, yeah, they're, uh... They look really cool, don't they? He's like, yeah, yeah, sure they do. And he's like, well, I think they look really good. And then Conaway walks off. And then like a day later, JMS is like, oh, my God, he wants one of the uniforms. Yeah, yeah. Here's the thing. If there's anything you and I have learned about our friend Joe, subtlety doesn't work with him at all. No, not even a little bit. Just directly ask for what you need. One, he will appreciate that approach so much more. Also, by the way, me too.

[10:28] Don't beat around the bush. Just whatever you want. Just freaking say it. Don't anticipate me to or expect me to try to read between the lines and understand what you want or read your brain or anything. I won't be mad if you just ask me. But I'll be mad if you get mad that I didn't pick up on what you were asking me. Right, but I'm doing this the whole day. Because you expected me to understand. Like, don't. That's our message right there. Stop reading people's minds or asking them to read your mind. Just say what you want, folks. It's grown on a few small ceremonial plants in Minbar. It still itches. It is an honor. Andrew says that the whole movie Third Space takes place in between this scene and the rest of the episode. It looks fine. It's pretty interesting, really, when you think about. I should listen to Minbari about fashion.

[11:12] Wow. How racist is that? I mean, no offense. I've seen war lines with more fashion sense. Ow! Hey! Dude, you saw him just wind up and even had the sound effect. Boing! She did that on purpose. Yes, she did. If she did, whole deal.

[11:27] Good job. Infeliental human. I just feel like if I take his uniform, I'm admitting the chief's never coming back to his job. And if Mr. Garibaldi does not take back his job, he will. So it makes me think a lot about us, a lot of us face in work situations a lot, where I had a situation in the last couple, almost a year or so, where a person was out for an unknown amount of time for a medical thing that was going on, and they asked me to step in to their role. And I have known this person for a very, very long time and have a tremendous amount of respect for them. And I remember reaching out to them on LinkedIn and just being like, hey, heads up, just so you know, I'm going to be kind of holding the fort down while you're out. I wanted you to hear it from me. And they said they were fine with it, but I always had this thing in my head of just like, this is still theirs.

[12:21] I'm just tending the ship, essentially. but the reality was she was never coming back. Right. And she wanted me to do what I would do in that space. And I think that's generally a situation when you're put in a role, unless you are given explicit instructions to not make it yours, just make it yours. Cause Zach, when he makes it his dude, he's such a great security chief. Right. Yes. But were I in your position, I would tell Sheridan the truth. He should know that if the dreaming does not go well, Dude, that marmalade he's spreading on top of his tone just makes me want to smack him. Well, you should know.

[13:05] You know, Jeff, you were talking about just making something yours. I work with a lot of community volunteers and stuff like that, specifically with the theater and doing sound. Sound is one of those sound and lights and that sort of stuff. It is not something that anybody can just step in and do with a certain skill level. Right. Like there, there's the basic, Hey, just kind of watch the board sort of stuff. But then there's the actual, like, you know, you're like engineering this thing right here. Right. But there's one thing that I, and so my job, I go and I try to make it as easy as I can, but I tell the people, Hey, you're the one in charge here. You're the one that we are entrusting with how this thing sounds. Cause I'm not going to be here and there's going to be lots of people who have lots of opinions, but you're the one who's been asked to step into this role and you're the one who's accepted. So you're the one who has to make the call right, wrong, indifferent. I don't care. Just make the call, own it, go forward in that kind of confidence that this is yours. And, and you are being entrusted with how this sounds. And, and when, you know, people ask you or give you thoughts and opinions, just understand they did not get entrusted.

[14:18] Um she's been partying one thing to say jeff purple it's green purple you're so desperate to prove your point you keep the little sound bite on i know the green is superior so i don't even have to say it i mean ivana you're just being lazy because you have it buried like eight pages deep on your sound effects and you don't want to page over to it you're not wrong purple, Take your time. I feel like this is such an F you to Andreas Katsoulis. Like, hey, so you're going to have a regular eye here for a little while. Oh, cool. So no contact. Oh, no, you're still wearing a contact. It's just going to be blue now. Yes. It's not my proper color. I can take care of that. He's so vain. The important thing is that it works. You know what that shows, though, Jeff? For all of the ways that Jakar is in the midst of his transformation, from what we see in season one to where we see him in season five his transformation is not complete yet his vanity is still so much a part of his identity right now i don't think that season five jacar is going to care that much i really don't i would agree you know what i mean but this jacar does so he's not there yet i was i was just going to.

[15:37] Dude he's like did i forget our anniversary or something because he's gone out for dinner if you're going to be complete you owe me a third night woohoo this is pwh pre-woo oh it matters to me a great deal that we finish this john i'll um i'll be here at uh seven, for dinner you know sometimes though with with a partner like that you they don't need to explain, like they're if they're saying i just need you to do this oh yeah just okay i don't need the explanation let's just go i need this from you the answer is okay exactly yeah exactly even if that costs you something even if that means something they're saying i need this from you that is not a hard fast rule that you do every single time and certainly not in an unbalanced or unhealthy way and put all those caveats in there i'm saying is sometimes that's part of being in a relationship.

[16:42] You know, here in a couple, 20, 30 some odd episodes, the reverse of this is going to happen. John takes off and Dillain gets very angry about that and very upset about that. But it's okay for her to do it now. I'm just, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Wow. I'm just kidding. I wondered if you were going to leave without telling me. He's not creepy at all. No. My place. They're waiting for us. I mean, he's a creep, but also like he's a good friend. if you assume there's no ulterior motive here and he's just truly trying to be there for her. Which I think I did the first time around. I don't this time. That whole thing felt gross.

[17:21] This has caused us great concern. I must follow the calling of my heart. What affects only you is your decision, but not if it affects the history and laws and rules. But not if it affects the history. Okay. No, this is an incredible distinction that you and I have always missed, I think, Jeff. Okay. We always talk about and we kind of make fun of this whole thing of, we've got to follow the calling of my heart, which you and I have often said, that's just a BS way of saying I'm going to do whatever I want to do. Yep. And somehow justifying it, right? But he clarifies this, like part of the cultural idea. Yeah, that's fine as long as it affects only you. As soon as the calling of your heart starts to affect everybody else, then it becomes everybody else's business. Let's litigate that, Jeff. Okay. Is that good policy? Your rights are your rights, but your rights stop being your rights when they start intruding upon the rights of somebody else. Yeah, 100%. That's great. Right. Or are your rights your rights regardless? And if it tramples somebody else's rights, then sorry about your luck. Go be somewhere else. I think that's the thing about rights. Like they can't trample on other people's rights.

[18:35] Because if they do, then you have different sets of rights and there's a hierarchy to them. And that's kind of counter to what rights are all about. Well, maybe not because maybe it's very specific that this caste or strata, you have these rights and then you have these rights. Rights, but I don't think that's how Minbari society works if, if rights are, if, if you have different rights for different strata of casts, then you don't have rights. You have privileges. There you go. Yeah. Rights are ubiquitous across the board, or at least they should be. I think in a real way, that's how, uh, back before God.

[19:12] There's a political ideology that existed that has been since perverted a bit. But the idea was, hey, you do what you do. And the government's just here to kind of provide infrastructure and basic support stuff. You do you, but you don't hurt anyone else with what you do. That's where the government would intervene. But you want to sit at home and do whatever? Do your whatever. Good for you, as long as it's not hurting anybody. I think that's a great way of thinking about things. We want to help you understand yourself. Get your hand off my face. Why you've done this, and if it is truly the right thing for you and for our world. He's like Jokey McJokerson, but gross. Yeah. You must convince us on other grounds. You may find you have reasons for what you are doing that you do not even realize. You may even find that they are the wrong reasons. I think he's man-barring explaining her. Man-barring explaining her. You will begin by purifying your thoughts. Like, what is Delenn's risk here? What if she's like, take a hike, bro? I wish that was established more. Maybe it was, and I've just been talking over it, but... I mean, if she says no, what are they gonna do? Banish her and she goes and lives on Babylon 5? Not the first time that would have happened to her. She's like, oh, I got canceled again. Cool. I'll go back to the place where, like, people want me. Right. But she cares about her tradition and her culture. Sure.

[20:42] Taking down a little peyote. Mimbari mushrooms, baby. Let's go. We're in the spirit. That's the first time we ever actually see Dukat. It is. Which is so weird because I just know him and see him now. It's that season four, season five brain, man. The question was asked if all of this was actually just from a deleted episode or flashback scenes or whatever with Mira. Or did she actually get back in the season one makeup? What do you think it was, Jeff? She got back in the season one makeup. She got back in season one makeup, yeah. IJMS says that, he says, it's funny, when I walked out onto the set and saw her in the prosthetics, the first words that came out of my mouth were, it's you. I haven't seen you in almost three years. How have you been? And Mira looked at him like he was dumb. Oh, Jojo, Jojo, Jojo. Dad jokes abide. Dylan? Dylan of the family of Mir. Yes, master. Directly named because she is Mira, a little bonk on the head. I'm here to live. I won't leave you. Matter what? No matter what. Oh, no. She just opened the door for him. You'll always be here with me? Always? Yes, I will.

[22:06] Have you ever before stood in the presence of the Great Council, Dillon? Question, Jeff. Might be an easy one. How many members of the Great Council are there? Nine. Nay, nay. Well, it's ten if you count the leader of the Great Council, right? Who is not one of the nine.

[22:21] There are 10. That's right. There are the nine. And then there is the one. Okay. And according to JMS, this goes all the way back to Valen slash Sinclair. And he did that because he did not want to be a part of any of the cast. He wanted that person to be separate away from the cast as not to be influenced by any of the others. By the way, I feel like that's really good policy that the head of a government should be not of a particular cast. Cast wouldn't that yeah i think that would make a lot of sense they actually must speak in they have to rise above that they're not they can't be the leader of a particular cast i feel like that's a good idea i think a lot of city governments are built that way right like you have your city counselors or commissioners and your mayor right the mayor is the big leader but the mayor's real job is just to facilitate the counselors should be you know yeah and then act as a tiebreaker when necessary because well i mean is isn't that what like chairmans of the boards are supposed to do and stuff like that like you let the people work and you just sort of facilitate make sure they have what they need to do what they got to do right set the agenda get the right people here like i think it's great what an awesome model yeah what could ever go wrong what goes wrong is when you stop doing that all for different reasons would you like to hear them.

[23:40] Perhaps another might be better suited to. The correct answer is yes. Who? Yes. A thing I really like about what Mira's doing here is in modern TV and movies, if you're going to be a younger version of yourself, they just paint you with some CGI and you're a younger version of yourself, right? And it really actually looks super great, you know, or whatever. Right. This isn't a time when you couldn't do that. She's younger and she has to actually act differently. Right. And she is. Right. Well, you carry yourself different when you're younger. You hold yourself. Your shoulders are different. The cadence of your voice, all of those things are different when you're younger. And when you see somebody who is older playing a younger version of themselves, or you see a younger person playing an older version of themselves who is playing old.

[24:32] Usually doesn't work. They are a waste of our time and resources. I want to play that again and just change a word. So they're talking about why they don't want to make contact with humans. I just want you to, in your mind, swap the word humans with immigrants. The worker caste fears their position will be weakened by more sources of food and alien artifacts. The religious caste is worried about the impact of strange, primitive ideas. And the warrior cast says we should have nothing to do with violent inferior cultures. They are a waste of our time and resources. What do you say? I'm not qualified to judge. Also, Dylan, I'm Dukat, and I am asking your opinion.

[25:19] Sorry, sidebar, the other day I'm at work. In my line of work, I often have to submit to the direction of another. Okay. And that other changes depending on what season we're in. You know what I mean? I still have my job. I still have stuff to do. But a lot of times I just have to bite my tongue and just let them do what they got to do, you know, and, and these, these people come and change every season, me and a handful of others stay the same. One of these people makes a really bad call, in my opinion, you know, that messed a whole bunch of stuff up. And when things weren't ready to go the way they needed to go because of this decision that they made, um, things didn't work. And I just sat back and was like, well, the, the executive director of this whole thing is going to sort it out. So I don't have to worry about it. Right. So she comes in one day and she's noticing things aren't messed up. And she looked at me, she said, Brent, why is this like this? And I went, well, I could, and I looked like some people are like standing around me. And like, if I say what I'm about to say, I'm going to throw this person under the bus. So hardcore.

[26:29] And I'm not in a private space right now to do that, you know, but you understand I'm six foot three. This lady is five, six, maybe, but she is a boss, right? You know what I mean? Fills the room. Yeah. And she's looked at me and I went, uh, I like, I looked around and she goes, she just goes, why? She knew. I was like, because we didn't do this. Why didn't you do that?

[27:01] Because they decided not to i was like shoot but it was uh it was definitely that kind of what you're talking about with ducat and him like she's asking me why she's asking me as a person who is here all the time what's different now and i have the answer i just didn't want to say it nobody else found that interesting but me but yeah that was uh it's a good example.

[27:27] When the boss is asking you for your opinion say it or here's what i like to do sometimes just straight up say do you actually want my for real opinion here or are you just wanting me to say some like just tell me what you're looking for here because i have thoughts and they will likely get me fired if that's not what you're looking for right there there are times when i bite my tongue here because but i'm allowed to think thoughts in my head if you're asking me for those thoughts then just know what you're getting but very good point that you're pointing out of just replace the word human with immigrant and that's pretty wild jeff i like how they're framing this because this is like her first like big well the greatest jeff look at this look at this look at this this is now replacing your mind sinclair valen with two little kosh dudes on each side of him oh yes ministers and counselors and warriors and not one of you has the sense of curiosity of a simple acolyte he's like you make me sick disgusted by you mugging your complacency that you have lost the simplest of joys that of the child and the closed box the simple acolyte This child. Dude, she's right there. Come on. Leave me. Will you make contact? No. The council will be even more determined now. I could override their decision, but nothing would be served. Authority should never be used as a club.

[28:54] That's so good, too. When others do a foolish thing, you should tell them it is a foolish thing. They can still continue to do it, but at least the truth is where it needs to be. Yes. That's a thing, too, right? Like, sometimes you can't solve the problem, but you can say the thing. You know, I think, like, a big part of my job and in my life, too, is having difficult conversations with people. And what I've learned from so many, so goddamn many years of doing this. So long. Is you're never going to change a person. Right like they have to change you're never going to do it and so i'll go into a thing and i'm like i we're here and i need you to do this and get here but i know it's not going to happen but i just need to be able to know that i said the things that needed to be said because that's what i got control over and that's it that's what ducat is saying here this is this might be my favorite scene in all of babylon five like this is this is the entire babylon five leadership academy me is this wow so good crazy eyes and look at me it is disrespectful i cannot have an aid who will not look up i love this scene because she says this for the line she says this to linear yeah so you get the idea the council is not the one who actually makes the decisions it's the one the council councils the council's like here's the will of the quote people us the council, but.

[30:17] It's on you the one. You're the guy who makes the decision. You make the final call, but that's what a council should do. The council should counsel. The people who make decisions should make the decisions. I stand between the darkness and the light. Yep. They all know.

[30:36] Dukat's known this whole time he's been at least suspected. I do love how thrown together that thing looks because it's just his combat, you know, and Zathra is just kind of. So here's the thing. I've tried to do a lot of research on that. That is a fan theory. Is it really? If somebody else out there actually has legitimate documentation from the production JMS. Somebody that says that that's actually what that is because everything that I can find actually just shows that that is a leading theory, a fan theory, but not actually something that the production or JMS has ever ultimately confirmed. Wow. It makes sense. But it makes all the sense in the world. It molecularly bonds to its owner. Yeah, exactly. That's why it makes all the sense in the world, right? And it's just an identification device. That's all it does. Yeah. Ben confirms. It's actually just a fan theory, but dang it, it's one that we all pretty much just agree to. What is it? We detected these alien ships approaching our space. I've never seen those markings before. Who are they? That's Byron. As is our custom, we are approaching with gun ports open. By whose order? Can we just talk about how absolutely stupid and idiotic that is? How have the Minbari been around for this long and interacted with that many different species out there? And it's never blown up. Right.

[31:57] While I get it's their culture and it's their custom amongst themselves, this cannot be the universal way of doing things. It's so weird to me. Because if we think about greetings, right? A handshake, which is very common in the Western world, that was offering yourself so you can feel that person does not have a blade hidden in their sleeves. Right? That's like a show of safety. the salute some even the wave to a point is me lifting my visor so you can see my face and no friend or foe it's very much about showing i don't have anything here like there's nothing for you to be afraid of as opposed to like dude check out all these guns.

[32:42] It's it's a stupid tradition if it's your tradition it's fine i'm not going to knock your tradition but when you are interacting with the rest of the galaxy and forgive me for my, stupid human brain who thinks the rest of the galaxy is probably more in line with us than they are with the minbari but i think the rest of the galaxy is probably more in line with us than they are the minbari also you'd think they'd have like some first contact protocol something Yeah. You know, not just like, hey, when we roll up on another Minbari ship, you know what we do? Show our stuff off. Let's do that to everybody.

[33:22] You fools just created King Arthur. So I didn't do research on this one, but I did research on other episodes, which led to some things on this one. Mira was very upset about this. This whole thing here where she was the deciding vote. Like she read the script. She went to jam. She was pretty furious about it. Actually. She's like, Dylan is a peacemaker, not a war maker. But JMS told her that to be a true peacemaker, you must have experienced war. You must have made mistakes and learned from them. He said, the thing about Babylon five and our council chambers chat said this earlier, but he said, the thing about Babylon five is that our characters aren't perfect. Yes. Including Dylan. And he goes on to say that we cannot atone until, until we fess up and that's why admission comes before atonement in the dictionary, which is not true admission comes before atonement because d comes before t but it does that because you have to fess up first no nobody put a d in the fourth letter slot and a t in the, 16th letter slot for this moment maybe they did maybe the 18th letter slot or whatever it is.

[34:40] Oh look at that face god what a hallmark episode for me just as an acting tour de force here, It's all written there on her, like, she can't even believe right now what she just watched. And I get it, right? I think the line that Ardelen pulled out in the recap was that I felt this really undercut a lot of what has been established in Delenn. I disagree with that now, right? Like, to JMS's point, she has to have made mistakes. She has to have been to war. She has to have done those things. but to look imagine one of your i'm not going to say biggest mistakes necessarily but biggest life-altering moments that happened 20 plus years ago and you watch it through your eyes your experience your wisdom today it might be horrifying to watch and in that second of her face i read all of that jakar's big moment jeff him meeting jaquan changed him irrevocably forever londo has a moment changes him irrevocably forever that moment is watching the asteroids get blasted at narn right right and you you could argue that that one moment despite some of the stuff that comes after that's the moment where everything really truly changed for him i think so.

[36:06] Culminated in many ways with very long night alone in malari further culminated with him standing there and just receiving the keeper and doing what he had to do to the end of his life i think we've talked about sheridan sheridan's pretty much the same dude beginning to end yeah just a little more like rougher a little more experienced a little more gravel uh franklin franklin's big moment where he's never the same talking to himself his walkabout experience right his shadow dancing experience. Which is his walkabout. You know what I mean? Right. Marcus, Marcus is pretty much the same all the way through. What about Ivanova? What's Ivanova's marking point?

[36:45] I don't say the TKO thing because I don't think she changed after that. I think she very much was still the same. It was a big moment for her. I would want to say the Marcus and quality of mercy machine thing, but we don't know. I would agree with you on that. That's actually exactly what I was thinking. We just, we just don't have enough information to really truly say outside of a little, we see her behind a general's desk many years later. Right. Nia says the death of her mother. I could see that. Maybe if you go back to, or even the death of her brother. Yeah. You know, changing her. But really what I'm talking about is from where we first meet them in this story to where they change at the end. Some characters stay the same. Some characters change. Big marking moments. You know, Delenn is one of those people that to me, it kind of always stayed the same from beginning to end. Yeah. I think this moment is a marking moment for her. I don't know that a pre-atonement Delenn could go do the Civil War thing. I'm not sure that a pre-atonement Dylan could go do the endgame thing or rising star, where she's standing in front on the podium declaring John as the first president of the international or the interstellar alliance. I think this is her moment, her changing moment. And in order to have that.

[38:06] It was probably really good as an actress that she felt very torn apart because Dillon is very torn apart about this. They thought it to be a prelude to an attack. You were the one who gave the order.

[38:21] Nothing can change that. Yeah, I still am not OK with that.

[38:25] You and me both. Yeah, I get why she I get why she carries it. I understand. It's not fair. It's not hers to carry. Not not as the person who's on the front. Just because you're the final vote caster does not in a tie. Does not mean you are responsible for that vote or absolve the others from their voting there it is perhaps there is time to avoid even greater loss we can at least try to speak to them find another i kind of hate this yeah it is a holy one i hate this as much as i hated sam carter coming out of the missile silo going i just knew i just knew it it takes all the teeth out of this decision that she made her turning around and not five minutes later being like actually maybe we shouldn't do that sorry joe i just disagree with your choice here she that what she's feeling now is something she needed to feel a year later well i think four years later not five minutes later i think this is down the road a little bit from that is it i think it's one of the things that this episode suffers from is the time scale if you're just watching this it's hard to tell that like she was a child essentially and met met ducat and then like a boatload of time went on and she got appointed to the gray council and then he died and then time happened and she's talking to byron who's killing it by the way like i would watch byron as it rowan atkinson or whatever is this thing but uh and be like yeah we should bring him back he's great but it's the character maybe not the actor that's fair that's very both.

[39:52] Combination of yes but i think this is like a good chunk of time because she's talking he's talking about our people are driven mad with grief and anger and she's like we've killed so many people on both sides okay but even still how much of a chunk of time are we talking about that'd probably be, a little bit weeks maybe a couple months no no i like we need to see like dylan not just not just somebody who pops off in emotion but somebody who is driven to then sit back and go oh shoot that's not how we should have been and in many ways makes her no better than london mori, did i just say that you did say that although despite what i just said and this has nothing to do with comments that the the that our lovely council chambers have just put up in the thing there is something very intriguing and very human about regretting for years down the road a decision made in a moment there is something very very human about that experience oh yeah.

[40:58] Going back in they just keep the peyote loaded in the cup the whole time right This cannot be allowed. This is not as things are done, Dylan. You know this. Do I look like someone who does things the way they've been done? Right. I forget which episode it was, but in our research, we got a quote from JMS that said, Valen never had kids. Uh-huh. One thing I really enjoy about Joe Michael Straczynski is the just hard and fast consistency in everything he says about anything. Being very facetious. It's so fun. Like sometimes even just between like the comments he made in the lurker's guide and then what he says, like in these script books, it's like those are entirely different things, Joe. Entirely different things. So it's like, so he never had kids. But this whole other thing is based on all the kids that he had.

[41:54] So it's funny you say that. Oh, really? You're not the first person who's pointed that out. Okay. And Joe has heard this and had his response. Which is basically take a hike. Pretty much. Yeah. But let's see his actual response. In his comments on War Without End Part 2, he said that Valen had no children, which is correct. His message, which was like on Larker's Guide or the episode itself, Joe says, when it airs, it's canon. No matter what. Dylan just said that in the council chambers chat. It's perfect. It's exact timing. He said, but Joe says this. in speaking, this is speaking of lurker's guide. Okay. How long has it been now, Joe? 30 years? Sure. Yeah. In 15 years, nobody's going to be looking at these messages, hauling them around. But the show will still be on the air. Wrong on two counts. Is there even an air anymore? That's fair. That's a legit question. Is it actually airing on TV anywhere? I know we can stream it. Is it actually airing on TV on some channel? If it airs, it's canon. And just because he's Joe and he always has to, you know. He says, by the way, in another one of these posts, I did mention that on a couple of small occasions, I lied.

[43:17] I lied when asked major story arc questions to protect future storylines from being deflated. I'm going to call BS that that's what happened here. Just saying. You know, earlier, we were kind of wondering why Dylan was even going through this. Another thing I stumbled upon. Delenn needing to have her clan validate her relationship with Sheridan is based on JMS. Remember when he was in a cult back in college, he had to get his relationship and he and his girlfriend had to get their relationship approved. Yeah. That's what this is. Him working through that. You ever been in a situation like that, Jeff.

[43:58] Where a community that you were in kind of wanted to have a say in relationships that you were in as well, where a community I was in actually like said, Hey, this lady is going to come and meet you and you guys are going to get married. Oh, I didn't know you went that far. Yeah. We didn't get married. We did not get married. Yeah. She married someone else and they're doing great. And I think they have like 48 kids because that's a thing that they do in that community. But yeah, it was very much, this is going to happen for you. All righty. Well, there you go. Yeah. You would destroy the purity of our race. I could not let it happen again. But our race is not pure. Right? Our people carry human DNA in our blood and in our cells. I'm one of them. I can explain this to our people as a similar offering to the humans who died during our war. They're playing this as like a conciliatory, you know, like, oh, there's a way we can get you what you want, whatever. And this is through a modern lens. But how gross is that? Like, Hey, you can literally be chattel that we trade in exchange for ongoing peace. How's that sound? Isn't that great? James, um, talking just now we're talking about the human DNA side of her real quick. The reason that she was able to transform was because she had this DNA.

[45:20] Like nobody else would have been no no one else who wasn't a child of valen would have been able to do this which i think is something we've talked about or maybe we've heard from comments and stuff from people but just confirming that from jms himself and yeah they really wanted her to remain childless we'll let you go but you got to remain child so um and i think someone mentioned in the chat but i was going to bring this up also so it's not necessarily canon but in the in the novels it's heavily implied. So Catherine Sakai became a ranger, essentially, and she and Marcus and Sinclair were doing some stuff. And the whole thing that kind of leads to Babylon 4 coming through, and she got sucked into a time rift and died, quote, died. What the kind of accepted story is that she ended up going back, met Valen, and Sinclair and Sakai ended up marrying in the end anyway. So the children of Valen are also children of Sakai. So children of Valen are like three-fourths human? Pretty much, yeah. Or at least the direct children of Valen. Yeah. Three-fourths human. Which has really got to blow up their Ancestry.com results. Right. Like when you think about it, essentially this is an Ancestry result that's going to completely tear apart their society. You know, you also could talk about the whole Valen didn't have any children. Clearly, Mimbari society doesn't recognize non-Mimbari children.

[46:46] He didn't have any Mimbari children. Or maybe Valen didn't have children, Sinclair, because it was with a human. So we're not going to give that to Valen. I mean, I guess I actually kind of like the idea. Yeah, sure. He had children, but they weren't. Mimbari. They weren't Mimbari. So as far as we're concerned, he didn't have children. Not that we're concerned about. It's basically just gross cultural stuff. Yep. Another thought I had, and Katerina brought this up in the chat, which is cool, but I, Such a novice, very, when it comes to the Tolkien stuff, and especially when we get into the Silmarillion, like, the fact I can say the word Silmarillion is pretty impressive. But when you really go back into that first age story stuff and go, most of the elves that we know through the stories of Lord of the Rings, Elrond and stuff like that, aren't full elf, right? Like, way, way, way back, there was a split, and that's why they can choose, you know, I'm going to be mortal, and I'm going to stay with our Aragorn the whole time. and all this great stuff because of a lot of things that happened way back in the first age. But there is, I mean, I think it comes out in The Hobbit a bit and a few other places. Like there is definitely the contingent of like elven purity, you know, it's the purity of our race. Turns out your race has never, hasn't been entirely pure for thousands of years. Hey, Minbari bro, turns out you ain't so pure. Ooh. Marcus, this is the kind of conversation that can only end in a gunshot.

[48:14] Would you like me to sing instead no yes please marcus please i am the very model of a modern major general i have information vegetable animal and mineral i know the kings of england and i quote the facts historical from maratham somebody asked if he if this was his thing if this was uh jason jason's thing and james was like nope it was in the script he had to learn it he didn't know it oh wow yeah by the way them playing it through the through the credits was basically they just lifted it off of one of the takes that's pretty like he didn't do it for the credits they just thought it was funny and put it in there well and dylan and our dylan said for the recap i only sang two lines well in our later in the thing after the uh the credits i sang the whole thing because i had to pull it up and find it i remember but i sang the mass effect one did you have you, Mr. I'm in Mass Effect 2, completed Mass Effect 2. Uh-huh. Did you run into the other version of this song? I don't recall it. Oh. You need to talk to your squad mates more. Oh. Follow some trees. It's going to come back to bite you. I feel like I've made decisions in Mass Effect 2 that are already biting me in Mass Effect 3. It's one of the great things about the game. Well, that's Atonement.

[49:27] We had quite a bit we talked about during the episode itself. Did JMS have anything else that he talked about we didn't get to cover? Yeah, a couple of things. One, somebody asked about Mimbari facial hair. And he's like, hey, other Mimbari have facial hair, drawl and Kalein from points of departure. I said it's certainly not common, but it does happen. I do remember you and I have talked about Mimbari facial hair before. Okay. And how rare it seems. Almost out of place, but also how much cooler it makes the person. He did point this out. It was noted when one of the people says, our brother's dead, talking to Dylan and the great council member, indicating other members of the council did die.

[50:10] Oh, okay. Okay. He also said this, and I thought this was very interesting. I feel like this is probably one of those things. I don't know if the council chambers has told us this at some point or we picked it up from a comment somewhere. But the gray council, the nine have been informed to know who Sinclair is the fat and the Valen thing, but that never leaves the circle because it would explode Minbari culture and society. But the nine know. So when they're sitting there looking around at this, at this tri-luminary, they know exactly what they're looking at. Somebody also asked this. It's a physics question. Does right up your alley but the reason i'm reading this is not because of jms's response but because of the editor from lurker's guides response okay okay so i just want to read this, Person asked a question. My question is, since we can see the ship's engine running, why aren't all of the objects in the hold laying against the bulkhead as a result of the ship's movement? Aside from that, it was a pretty neat effect shot. But you could see that. Everything's all messed up. Engine's moving, so everything should be flown back against the bulkhead, right? Maybe, yeah.

[51:25] JMS says, because it's accurate. It's the same reason you don't see everything slammed up against the back wall of a shuttle, even though it's actually circling the Earth at thousands of miles per hour. To which the editor notes this is wrong that effect does occur on the shuttle when it is maneuvering thrusters fire which is why shuttle crews lock down everything down during maneuvers well which brent would like to point out joe i'm coming to your defense here pal the editor is talking about an entirely different event than what joe is talking about joe is talking about when the shuttle is moving at a steady speed in orbit maintaining orbit moving at a steady speed the editor is talking about what happens when you fire thrusters and you make a change those are two very different things i'll give us a real world example you're driving in your car windows are up you have a ball in your hand throw the ball up what happens it comes right back down into your hand it doesn't wind up way back there yeah isn't that why you're moving forward at 60 miles an hour.

[52:24] In close space friction and the ball actually doesn't go straight up and down do you know that No, the ball, the ball goes up and moves forward. But why? Because when it's in your hand, the ball is already moving forward at such a speed. That it actually only appears to go straight up and down. It's just the ball is actually moving at an arc. You're happening to be moving at an arc, so it looks like it's just going straight up and down. Now, what happens with that ball in your hand, and you slam on the brakes, that ball goes flying. Okay. Why don't you go flying? You have a seatbelt on. Okay, I don't like what you do. How about you don't slam on the brakes? Let's just say you slowly begin to brake. Let's say you have something on the seat. How come that thing doesn't fly off when you start to break? Well, it's decelerating with you.

[53:14] Except the contact with which that object is making with the seat of your car. Let's assume it's sitting on the seat. The friction that is between those two, that friction has not been overcome with which to let the object begin to move. That object can move because you have a change in speed. It's the change in speed that is the issue and the friction. But again, in this point, JMS's point, because when it's moving, everything doesn't just fly to the back. But when you start changing things, like you introduce thrusting, firing, it will move stuff, which is why they lock it down. But there is also this other element of friction that could allow for changes of speed and stuff to not move, is my point. Okay. So there's your science lesson for me today.

[54:00] Somebody's going to correct me in the comments in there. Well, they are. Already here, even. You know what now? Let's see here. balloon in a car does the opposite of a ball i just remember and i think it was in 1996 it might have been 1995 wcw world championship wrestling had a pay-per-view that had a oh i forget what they called it but it was basically a match in the back of a semi truck like in a trailer, and uh dustin dustin runnels dustin rhodes gold dust uh was wrestling i forget who he wrestled in it but it was a god-awful match like it was horrible but i remember thinking like hey they're doing these moves. And like the truck's moving. Isn't it going to like, They're going to jump up and they're going to move and it's going to fly out. And that's when I learned that no, because you're all moving at the same relative speed. And the time it takes for you to jump and fall back down isn't enough for the stuff to overtake you and for you to get flown out. So that's my physics lesson. It's all based on wrestling. Did you have any messages or anything else we did not get a chance to cover that you want to bring up now? No, we got them all. Well, you know what that means? What does that mean? We've been doing a thing.

[55:06] It's a thing we've been doing pretty much. from day one almost and but we've been creating there's a whole raft of them that exist already we're creating more definitive objectively correct rankings of all of the episodes of the various seasons of babylon 5 currently we're doing that for season four because that is the season in which we are watching episodes brent it is your responsibility this week to rank.

[55:33] Atonement, I'm going to get, uh, I'm going to go ahead and pick, well, we have eight on here right now, so it's not that hard, but I'm going to kind of pick a middle-ish section here. And I'm going to say in number six, we've got falling toward apotheosis and five, the summoning for the hour of the wolf. And number three, whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi? Number two is the long night. Brent, where are you putting atonement? You know, you and I talked for quite a while about whether or not we would kind of take that original six episode arc and smush it together as one thing. We decided not to. Well, Jeff, today I can tell you there's a good thing, good reason we didn't, because we are going to be breaking apart that arc.

[56:11] It's excellent. I want to just reiterate how excellent that arc is. This episode is also excellent. It's really good, Jeff. It's really good. It's really good. What I'm trying to do right now, though, is I'm trying to look at those first six episodes, and I'm trying to judge them on an individual basis, not a continual basis. It's not touching the number one spot yeah not even coming close it's not touching the number two spots but you you kind of went from six to two and i'm kind of starting to look here at this number three the whatever happened to mr garibaldi hour of the wolf i loved hour of the wolf that's such a good strong season opener but those two episodes because that was episode one then episode two, right? Yeah. They were such straight up, uh, set up for what was happening. They were establishing pieces. They were good. So good. Summoning and falling towards apotheosis. I feel like those might've been the low points of that particular deal.

[57:17] Jeff, my gut. Okay. I'm going to go with my gut response here and I can't logic this one, but my gut response, this is our new number three because this episode is it it is really really good and it has i mean it it hits messages it hits the lore it hits the history it's well acted and it gets bonus points for having the coolest freaking character in the whole damn show and that's ducat give me a cool i mean i'm talking cool as a cucumber dude cooler than the other side of the pillow cooler than than a glass of iced tea on a warm summer day. You tell me who is cooler than Ducat in this whole show. I can't. No, you can't. No, you can't. Comment down below. Who's cooler than Dukat? If you put anybody other than Dukat, you lying. Dukat and then Zach. That's kind of, and there's a gap there.

[58:17] Listen, I love Zach. Cool is not the word I'm going to use to define Zach. Sheridan might actually be the next guy down the list. Yeah, maybe. Sheridan's pretty, oh my God, he's pretty suave, dude. Um but you made the right call uh objectively you made the right call i'm doing a tiny bit of analysis here on the our first time ranking uh atonement ended at number six on okay the entire season there's a lot of season left to go that there are only two episodes above it that we've already watched really and that's the long night and number five and end of the fire and Number one in the top 11, there's only one other episode that we've watched so far. Really? Wow. Yeah. This is why, listen, I understand why people say season three is their favorite season. Season four was my favorite season from the first go. And so far that is not changing for me. Season three was so good. It was so good. That's fantastic. Brent, that's going to do it for atonement.

[59:20] Next week we are watching the episode called racing mars do you remember what you thought about this one the first time we watched it um this is the this is the marcus and and franklin buddy cop episode right yep i remember liking it i feel like i feel like this is one of those episodes though that kind of like we've had such good strong episodes and this one might be like a part of the dip. And when I say dip, I want to explain what I don't mean lesser in quality, or I don't understand where it's coming from because it's got to set some stuff up, right? Like we've got to do some. World building. And it doesn't mean that it's a lesser or a bad episode by any stretch of the imagination. It's just not these big tentpole episodes. What I do think I remember is I think I remember us having a big discussion, though, the first time around, because they use the.

[1:00:20] Idea that people think that they're a gay couple and they play that for comedy and how that would have been super funny in the nineties really doesn't hold up very well in today's sensibilities. I think, I think that was this episode. I think that's what I remember coming out of this. I remember liking this episode. I remember laughing a lot and kind of being like, I understand why that's funny.

[1:00:40] Also have to at least acknowledge it doesn't play well in today's sensibilities but will you kind of give it i guess do you give it the history pass something like is that i don't know if we do that or not but anyway that's what i remember how about you jeff what do you what do you remember i loved this episode i remember but but but to your point i think there's this moment and i think this is actually the first episode in the moment but racing mars is the first time it feels like we're in the moment, but it's like, Hey, we just wrapped up this big old, huge, massive thing. And we have to pivot to this other big old, huge, massive thing, but we can't just run from Shadows Vorilons to earth civil war. Like we have to essentially become a different show in a real way, new sets, new characters, new pacing, uh, stuff like that. And I think that's what, what I really remember from this one is it just feels you're the dip right i think is is a really good um really good explanation that and that covers a couple of episodes coming up before we like really start, ramping up into stuff but i i remember enjoying it quite a quite a bit i always enjoy this part of the show when we talk about what we think because our dalen is often here in the council chambers chat as we're doing it and she knows what we thought and i bet so often she's like oh you poor children, it was like three years ago. It was a long time ago, like two years ago, three. I don't even know it was a long time ago.

[1:02:08] Here here's it has been, will it be two years since I visited you? First sleeping light. Yeah. Two, it says yeah, two years, two years ago. Yeah. So well, a year and a half at this point. Yeah. But. Well, I guess, no, we're, oh my God, it's, yeah. Yeah, we're almost two years to that. So yeah, this is probably at least.

[1:02:29] This might be about two years ago from this point when we watched this episode, yeah. Yeah, it was, isn't that nuts? Two years. Right, right. Wow. Well, the cool thing about time is that we sometimes get to revisit it. And Brent, next week we get to revisit what we experienced two years ago in a different way. and I sure hope all of you are with us when we do that. You can do that by subscribing to us on the podcasting app you're listening to, on YouTube, wherever it is. That way you get notified of all the new stuff that comes. We have a ton of really cool stuff on our Patreon. Our Council Chambers tier subscribers are invited to join us during our live recordings. It's frankly one of my favorite things about all of this that we do is getting to do these recordings with them. Check it out, patreon.com slash badnerds. There's a lot of cool content on there just in general that we're slapping up very frequently.

[1:03:24] The one thing you can do, though, that will cost you nothing and will make all the difference in the world is share this show. Just share it with somebody you care about or someone you hate, depending on what you think of us. Either way, just share it. So I'd appreciate it very, very much. With that, I'm Jeff Akin. That is Brent Allen. And we... Hey, Jeff. Yeah, what's up? hey um so uh i i got this stuff from my uh my sister-in-law you know you know what kind of stuff i'm talking about it's it's kind of like what dylan was taking in the episode man yeah i i think i'm gonna go try it dude my place is by your side through fire and storm and all of the whatever uh yeah i'm i'm totally in yeah let's go indeed, I mean, we're not some deep space franchise. This station is about something.