Episode 262: Podcleanse

0:00 Podcasting 2.0 for June 5th, 2026, episode 262. PodCleanse. Have you been wondering what's going on with podcasting? Well, you came to the right place. This is Podcasting 2.0. It's where we do the board meeting every single week. In fact, we are the only... boardroom that never meets in secret. I'm Adam Curry here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country and in Alabama, the man who holds all the power. My friend on the other end, the one, the only, Mr. Dave! Please. Meeting in secret is way too much trouble. It's cool, man. It's cool. No, it's cool. You got to have Chatham House rules. We have Chatham House rules, everybody. I don't even know what that means. Oh, Chatham. What is Chatham House rules? Well, you know what Chatham House is? No. Chatham House is basically the UK version of the Council on Foreign Relations.

1:09 Of course it's British. Yeah, of course. And so Chatham House, you know, that's where the liberal world order decides their rules there. So Chatham House... The international rules-based order is what we're talking about. That's where that all takes place. And then they give the Council on Foreign Relations their marching orders and somewhere the Bilderberg Group comes in and the Trilateral Commission. But ultimately, Chatham House. Anything discussed at Chatham House may not be discussed outside of Chatham House. It's a bit like Fight Club, only with nerds. *laughs* And old rich people. Very old rich people and weenies. Yes, exactly. It starts at Chatham House, goes to the Council of Foreign Relations, then to Bilderberg, and eventually it winds its way all the way down to the Amp Accords. The Amp Accords. Yes, the Amp. It's real, this is uh, this is how things work in the kingdom man, so. Uh... You know, I have my, I love my robot. My robot is... Don't say that. I do. No, I love my... Just find a different way to express it. Well, it's a robot. I mean, it's just a robot. It's not like... I didn't say I love my AI or my chatbot. I said I love my robot because my robot... But when you say I love my robot, it just makes me think of the movie Her or something. Oh, no. Don't do it. Don't do it. So my robot is very highly tuned for the boardroom. And, you know, it's built all kinds. of

2:41 stringers and agents and it goes out and so it brings stuff in that's important. It whispers the entire power podcast, brings me back stuff I need to listen to, tells me the topics. You know, so I can like hang out with my wife while the robot's doing the work. And today it was. filled with all kinds of little bits and bobs from you and spurlock and like oh this is interesting And I've been thinking a lot since our last board meeting. Hello, boardroom, by the way. Good to see y'all. And then like 15 minutes ago, you say, oh yeah, by the way, Spurlock on the show today. Which I had missed that email because you always copy me on the invite. Our system consists of Dave invites somebody and sends out an invite, a calendar invite. And if I catch it, then, you know, oh, yeah, that's right. So I had to send them out a... Does that qualify as meeting in secret? I don't think it does. It's not really, no. Okay, no. And he's like the perfect guy to round out the trio on the show today as we... as we chair the board meeting. Because I'm just full of ideas, man. I got so many good ideas. And I'm so excited to share it with you. I mean, I've got, I got, I'm bringing stuff to the table, but if I don't want to. You know, I don't want to throw cold

4:13 water on your excitement here, so feel free to share. Well, I mean, I have a rundown. Why don't we bring Spurlock in? Yeah, he's the kind of guy that has nothing to promote. You know, he's rich, independently rich. He has a farm or something. I don't know what he's doing. He's got livestock. Yeah, Brussels sprouts. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the boardroom, the man behind OP. From the great state of New Jersey, John Spurlock. Hey, guys. Good to be here. Always fun and ready to talk about WWDC next week. Yeah. Okay. Wrong podcast. That's all I got. Maybe you can go on with those.

5:01 Those Overcast guys, talk about that there. Liquid glass sucks so bad! There you go, there's your whole podcast. Hmm. Everybody hates liquid glass. Do you hate liquid glass? I've actually been out of podcasting for a while. We went on a kind of like a week-long trip. And you know how it is. It's a great time to kind of like... Declare podcast. bankruptcy and live a real life. But then you come back and then a lot of stuff has happened and so I've been catching up. It's very interesting times. Very interesting times we're living in. That's called a pod fast, by the way. Pod cleanse. I do recommend it, though. It is nice. It is nice, everyone. The danger though, there's a lot of danger in pod fasting because... Sometimes you find that your life is so much better that you don't resume. You don't want to go back. Yeah. Well... Really? Do you feel that way, Dave? Do you feel that if you stop listening and you get back into it? feel that your life was better without them? The total hours of podcasts I consume. if you charted it on a monthly basis for the last five years, has steadily declined. Yes, it has been on a downward trajectory. Not precipitous, but a very steady downward decline. I like once every five or six weeks I drive to Austin honestly to get my hair cut and It's only because I'm loyal to the girl who's been cutting my hair for 16 years. But man,

6:33 I love, because I don't drive much. I drive to HEB, you know, like 10 minutes, eight minutes. So I have an hour and a half each way. And I'm just like, listen to this and listen to that. And then I'm really into it. I'm listening to way more. I just, I'm listening to way more audio books than podcasts. Cause I don't. Okay, honestly, it's news that I just can't tolerate anymore. I'm so tired of the news cycle. You don't listen to No Agenda anymore. You just skip it. You're done with it. I stopped listening to no agenda like two years ago. No, thank you. Because, because, um, for this reason, but for the reason that I feel special, no, for the reason, uh, the reason I stopped listening was that. Okay, this is it. This may be an interesting story. Okay. So the reason I stopped listening was because... I didn't want... to Here are the things you said on No Agenda. so that it would then affect my the discussion here valid point so i would always avoid So what would happen is I would always avoid the Thursday show of No Agenda. Oh, okay. Because I was afraid you'd say something that I wanted it to be fresh when I heard it on Friday. So then that led to, well, sometimes you would say something on Sunday. That would bleed through and give me ideas and stuff like that. Like, ah, I can't do this. So I stopped. listening. all together. And I

8:04 was like, I just, I want to be fresh on whatever Adam's thinking process is. Okay. Well, that's good. And I understand. I mean, I was just telling pastor Jimmy this morning. It's like, I love doing podcasting 2.0 because it's really, I mean, yeah. Board meeting, podcasting, blah, blah, blah. Really, it's just an opportunity for me to catch up with Dave. Yeah, that's really what it is. I just want to catch up with Dave, see what's going on. Because we used to talk more, you know, like on the phone and stuff like that. And then now, you know, now this is the time I get to talk to you. Yeah, and it would be like, okay, you hang up first. No, you hang up first. Remember those days. I love you, sweetheart. Bye. Okay, hang up.

8:49 I'm going to hang up now. I'm really going to hang up. Yes, here I go. But then, but the funny thing that happened though, was that after I stopped listening to no agenda for that other reason. I found- I now f- find any sort of podcast that has news in it is annoying intolerable oh yeah oh yeah it is totally intolerable everything is i can't i can't even it's hard for me to even listen to this week in bitcoin the only reason i i listen to it is because i just support chris and yeah everything he does that that's still my Guaranteed every week go to listen. I don't think I ever miss an episode. There's just something about it that I just like it.

9:32 He's using a lot of robots too now for his clips. I need to coordinate with him. Y'all should use economies of scale. So. John, what's your go-to podcast, man? What do you never miss? You know, I was just thinking. Pod Save America? I'm into this, it's because I listen to hundreds of- Goal hanger? Hundreds, hundreds. So I have so many podcasts that I have subscribed to. in my Little app that I have here. Oh, that's just, you're just helping the podcast industrial complex with your auto download. I mean, that's not doing anything. Well, actually, so I'm still using an app that I did a while ago to learn SwiftUI back in the day. And it doesn't auto download anything. So when it comes in, I do an initial swipe. You know, and most I swipe away. Nope, not it. So they're actually getting from me.

10:26 whether or not I actually intend to listen. And once I download, I pretty much do eventually listen to. Very few auto downloads from me, but I actually get this question all the time because you say you work in podcasting and the first question is something like... Is that your pickup line? Hey, baby. I work in podcasting. I'm big in podcasting. If they say, what are your top three podcasts? And I have no, you know, you can't answer something like that. People ask me that all the time. And another one is, what's your favorite song of all time? What's your favorite music video? Yeah, you should have something, something ready for that. Alba, Alba, dancing queen. Come on, man. I heard, I finally, I saw a good trick the other day. There was a karaoke thing going on. And someone picked tequila. And I was like, that's genius. The whole time you're just sitting there watching this person dance and then they say one word. This is a perfect karaoke song. Tequila. So I need an equivalent of that for a podcast. Like, what's my favorite?

11:28 Podcasting 2.0, clearly. Obviously. Did you get any on you, Dave? I'm going to wipe it off here. That's why we were at the Black Label Society concert. He's like, you know what my favorite city is? Nashville. Of course. What city are we in tonight? I mean, at the risk of turning this into this weekend AI, I am interested, like, have you done anything, Adam, on the client side of things? Like, do you have your robot go out and... sift through your podcast and say like, Hey, just give me the. Sort of important bit. on the listening side because I could see that being useful once you start trusting it. What I did is, and I have other things to talk about, but I will tell you this. There's this site called BingIt.io, which redirects to noagenda.clipgenie.com. And, uh... Dean, who set that up. He has all the episodes, all the transcripts, all the clips, all the show notes, and he's run some AI stuff robot over it. And it's a search engine. So if you go in there and you search for something, then it'll say, okay, here's the relevant no agenda. episodes and you can listen to you can listen to because we publish all the clips so he has the clips you can click on the articles but you can also just in the transcript click on it, and then you hear that part of that show, which is fun because, you know, some of it is like really bad quality. It's 15

12:59 years old. So I hooked that into the robot. So I said, look, here's a five-hour Senate confirmation hearing. go and find clips in this and measure it against the corpus of everything we've done for the past 18 years. So it'll go back and it'll find things that we said. previously so it gets kind of an idea of the attitude that we had about it and then it knows what what more or less it knows what I want from a clip out of it And it'll make a series of three to five clips I mean, not bad. Now that's still on the production side, but anything on the personal listening side where it's like, there's too many podcasts I need. I need help. Anything like that?

13:44 No. I think an app would probably be the best helper there. Exactly what I said. Pod News Weekly Review. I don't always have time to listen to it just because of my schedule when it comes out and then stuff I'm doing Friday morning. So the workflow is. Find out what's going on find out what pieces correspond to what i already wanted to talk about or what dave and spurlock and whatever's going on on no agenda on podcast index.social And then it'll highlight those for me And then I go into the podcast app and I hit those chapters. So it's kind of doing a couple of things for me. So that is indeed on the client side. Yeah, I've actually been really surprised with how often I use transcripts. And I use them primarily through Apple Podcasts. So, like, yesterday I was listening to the catching up on the AMP stuff. Yes! And I have to say, like, they did put out two... fairly informative episodes on what they're doing. Although their site wasn't great, they did talk about it. They have a podcast? Yeah, they have two podcasts. I subscribe to it. And they did lay it out rather well. Who is they? Oxford Road.

14:58 This is Oxford Road's thing, right? I've had a lot of thoughts about this and I'm glad that you took us right there into the amp thing. So the way I understand it, let's just skip the definition of a podcast for a second. Um, and, and I will come back to that. So in essence, they have... come up with a new measurement guidelines. And... The measurement guidelines are Pretty simple. I mean, in fact, I feel that they really made a huge mistake. By saying, okay, a play is 30 seconds of content played, audio or video, once per user per session. than the number of unique users who had a podcast. I'm not quite sure what that means should have been unique anyway it seems like something wrong with that sentence an ad impression a commercial begins playing for the user these are very specific words and add audience the number of users exposed to an ad impression which sounds like a guy in a in a dark alley opening up his coat like Hey, look at this ad. Are you impressed? I was exposed. I was just, I was thinking about this. I mean, let's just talk about that first. What is, because you, both you and Dave were going back and forth on the, on the mastodon. What is, what is your initial thoughts about this? about these measurements. Again, I try to look past the marketing side, which is clearly a marketing side for

16:29 the Rocks Road Road. And if you listen to their podcast, the 12 people that they have on the... on the group are folks that work with Oxford Road, right? And they are ad buyers and networks. And I think there's a guy from Libsyn on there as well. And they had their own summit and they picked 12 people to be part of the secret group. I have no clue why they decided to really. go gung-ho on the secret route. Multiple times they're like, oh, we've been doing this in secret. I don't know if they think that's a good thing or a bad thing. I think it's Chatham House. It's Chatham House vibe. More, uh... exclusive or I don't know. No, no, I think it means that we didn't believe me. I know how Chatham House people think. And these to me are Chatham House people. They're thinking, you know, we did this. We really got together and, you know, and we were underground and we didn't have any outside. influences and so this was the best way to do it so we didn't have anyone pushing or pulling at us which reminds me of the movie by Danny Kaye I think it is A Song is Born. Gotta look that up. And it's a bunch of professors and they go down in secret. for years to write the definitive encyclopedia of music. And as they're ready to publish, they come out and they're, here we are, we're ready to go public with our encyclopedia, and jazz happened. And they completely missed that. And they're like, what is going on? What happened to music? It's a great movie. And so... I think that that was well-intended more

18:04 as a, we were serious, you know, we put our time into it. That's what I think that is. It was a bit of marketing, but I, I don't think it's nefarious per se. And there are three, three of the members that aren't comfortable with being listed even. So that, that goes to the. you know, we have to be sensitive as far as a lot of the decision makers aren't in that group. So if a company is signing up to some of these proposals, they may not even be able to make the decision within the company itself. Yeah. But I honestly just want to look at it as a, and I think I tried to say this yesterday in the group, is just look at it. from what they have proposed and I'm really allergic to all these, especially what happens with software now. Not proposed, they ratified, let's just be clear. They have with no dissenting votes. But the stuff they've produced, right? Like what is actually there today? And there's not a lot and they say as much. Personally, I'm really sick and tired of software companies. pre-announcing things, right? So I will, I'll try not to pre-announce things, right? And say, it's coming, it's coming in three months. No, if you have it, you know, there's so much stuff out there, let's limit the news to like actual news. But I mean, the definitions that they've laid out, I think it's useful as a starting point for discussion. Like I, ultimately I think what they want is... that the players would somehow... feel that there's, and this is why I went back into the transcript. I wanted to know their exact language because it's like, they used a great word. I couldn't remember, but they want to hasten the demand. for this idea

19:36 right so they want to get it out in the world and sort of make it more apparent that this is a problem for some people. This is a problem for people that are in the advertising business and podcasting when they comparatively are using podcasting as a channel in relation to other channels, right? So there's certain things that podcasting can give you and then there's some metrics that it can't. And so they're hitting these problems. fully agree there's probably people that have these problems and it's just more of a way for them to get it out. and into the world and make sure that other people know about it. So in that respect, I don't have a huge problem with it. I do think it's going to be hard, like, do they have Apple on board with this? Do they have YouTube? Ultimately, they want Apple, YouTube, and Spotify to agree to these numbers. are these metrics and I'm not sure. Why they would do that ever or why they would do that now? Oh man, because that is what always happens in podcasting. When Dave and I started this... August of 2020. Apple's never going to do it. Never going to do it. If you don't get them on board, it's not going to happen.

20:43 We've been hearing that for 10 years. 10 years. And now we are 16 years into the Apple. If Apple doesn't do it, it won't happen. It's not important. Blah, blah, blah. And what you see is Apple now does stuff kind of without even asking. asking anybody, you know, whoa, okay, we'll do HLS video. So it's still just as pathetic as it always was. And on the secret WhatsApp group, are you in that, John, the WhatsApp group? I am, yes. I think I know the one you're talking about. Secret, by the way. The hilarious part is there's a secret WhatsApp. group complaining about the secret amp group and nice and in the group it's like Their solution is to yammer about it. Oh, we need to invite more people into the group. And I love this.

21:35 I hope they never kick me out. I love this group because I am a WhatsApp user because of... friends in Europe. And I just, you know, it's on mute. So I just go in and look at it every, every, you know, a couple of times a day to see what's going on. And it's like, okay, we need to get so-and-so in. Yeah, we got so-and-so in. Well, how come they didn't do that? I'd be like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I guess this group isn't Chatham House Rules, then, huh? It's totally Chatham House rules. In fact, listen to this. I think this is from Cridlin explaining the rules. We don't quote from this group, even me. And Apple has threatened to pull my arms and legs off for something I've written on here in the past, so there are eyes here. So there's also spies in the group. I mean this is... Oh that's great!

22:22 That's great! Look, I will... Please, nobody has ever asked me to be a part of any of these groups. I've never gotten an invite to them. Do not ever ask me because the answer is no. I hate this. crap i'm completely allergic to all secret groups do not even bother it's a it nothing gets me I mean... Nothing gets me more. irritated than a bunch of secret groups ma- making a bunch of decisions that has zero visibility. Well, they make no decisions. And they're just presenting it to the world as if it's somehow legitimate. I can't see, if I cannot follow your, if I cannot follow the trail of logic. that shows how you came to a decision, your decision is completely worse. to me it's it is a very guilty pleasure of mine because i'm sure it's fun to watch because i've never never been invited to these groups this is the first one i was actually invited to there may have been a slack group at some point that todd cochran rip that todd cochran invited me to but you know I've lost slack a long time ago I don't know what's going on but WhatsApp is something I'm still in now to me this is this is like I want to compare this to the secret group, to the... Uh, to the...

23:58 Topic being discussed of HTTP signing, which we'll talk about later. In public, in the GitHub. Discussions. And you can see everybody's point of view and everyone is arguing for their side, everyone and presenting their arguments. It is a completely transparent. Above board. Open participation discussion. Yeah, I can't handle those. I can't handle those. If the goal of the AMP folks was to, and again, it's hard as a tech person to not hear AMP and then hear Google's, I don't know, Dave, if you remember AMP's sort of... Oh, I spent a lot of time making support for AMP back in the Freedom Controller and on different websites, and then Google rug pulled it. No, it's not a thing. But if the goal was to get everyone talking about it, I think they've succeeded, right? Everyone knows who Oxford Road is now. Everyone knows. the their definitions and honestly i think that's a good starting point like if the Apps are all trying to not coordinate. They're competing. But if they all want to choose a common definition, at least now they have something to work with.

25:12 And if people have a problem with it, you know, they'll get it. I'm sure they'll hear about it. So I don't have a huge problem with it. It's once. It's once they come out with actual technology and actual sort of ramifications or changes that need to happen to the ecosystem. I don't honestly see that happening. I think this is more of a, hey, we're getting client stats now from Apple and from Spotify and from YouTube, and they're completely different, and we'd like them to be similar. That's it. Okay. Thank you. Now I need to tell you what I've been thinking about. Because, man, I went down a long memory road of how all things came to be. And the first thing I want everyone in the boardroom to understand that we have incredible, we are.

25:57 We are in fact, we are meek. You know how the meek will inherit the earth? We're meek in the way that's not weak. We're meek in a way that we have power that we kind of keep under the hood. You know, like you've got. You got a V8. You got a huge blower that you don't see, but then when you step on that thing, it just... This is what this group is, and I will remind everybody. That when we were told, Apple will never do this, Apple will never do that. What happened? Apple did transcripts. Chapters became a thing. The funding tag, person tag, location tag. I know we're on the fringe, but still. We have incredible power just by doing what we do and not writing blogs about it and announcing stuff and meeting in secret. This is the most non-secretive group we've ever had. And we don't give ourselves credit for it. I just need to preface this by saying I have been in the advertising business for a long time. I've been out of it for a long time, but I've been in radio, television, web. podcasting. I built a company. I took it public way too early. Didn't get rich off of it. Did okay. We had $450 million in revenue.

27:17 I built. big websites for Reebok, for Budweiser, for Continental Airlines, for tampons, tampax actually, the website you'll visit more than once a month. I did all of these things. I've been on the buy side. I've been on the sell side. At MTV, I brought Budweiser onto the channel, which... make no mistake, was spring break was not because we thought it would be cool to do spring break. No, Budweiser. We said, Budweiser, everyone's drinking beer there. We'll make sure it's Budweiser. We'll put big bottles on the stage and you'll be that and bring that stupid dog. We'll do the Bud Light thing with Spuds McKenzie. I've done all of that. What I'm going to propose here will piss everybody off except for the advertisers. And will actually have a huge benefit for podcasters. I'm loosely calling it... PCDC. The Podcast Data Collective. Is it a secret?

28:15 It's not a secret. Okay. And the reason why I'm happening, collective. I'm just, it's a collective. We're a collective. We're, you know, what is podcasting 2.0? It's a bunch of misfits. You know, we have, we do band every week. Someone shows up with a banjo. We got a guy playing spoons, a washboard. We got five drummers, you know. We got 18 bass players and one guy shredding. We're a very weird group. statistically, the relevance of the podcast app developers, and this is a crazy situation in all media. It has always been. the radio station, the TV station, the website. Who? get the advertising. They get a piece of the advertising and whether they share that with content producers or not is irrelevant. It's always gone through the transmission stations. Now, in podcasting, that turned out a little bit differently. The hosting companies... who by the way are the ones actually making money. who do not support directly any podcast apps. The podcast apps, it's very much like Dave and Adam. We've been doing this for six years. Haven't put a penny in my pocket. Love doing it. Love doing it for podcasting. feel that it's important as a contribution to the world, and we get enough value for value in so we can keep it going. I don't think there's many app developers, keeping Marco aside, who are really living off of any of this

29:48 stuff. So there's a discrepancy and a break in the system. And where last week I said you need to cut us in on the advertising, revenue, I've changed my thinking. Statistically, the independent app ecosystem, and John, you'll have to jump in, is probably about, I think we can claim 8% to 10% of overall listening apps. Is that a fair number? Uhhhh... yeah that's a good ballpark so i'm just going to keep it at 10 to keep it simple When you have a 10% number in advertising, statistically, that is more than enough to make very... informed decisions about your advertising money. If The data collective, if we collectively, just like we did with transcripts, just like we did with chapters, if we all start supporting. An aggregation of follows, plays per episode, and completion rate by time. and we publish those. per podcast. I mean, initially maybe a top 10 or whatever it is, but we make these numbers available. So anybody can, any advertiser can go to podcastindex.org. And I'm saying it should be us because I'm pretty sure people trust us. the app developers.

31:13 I know they trust Dave. They can trust me. far as they can throw me probably but my track record shows I haven't screwed anybody in business If we publish these, these would be real numbers. So you can actually see. Who, if you look at a podcast and go, well, how about this episode? Well, here's how many people listen to it by pressing play. Here's... how far the percentage of people who made it all the way through or listen to where your ad placement was or whatever reason, it can be many reasons to want to know how long somebody listened. If we publish that, initially publish it. and make that available, we will become the de facto... We will become... The source of truth. Matthew 5, 6 came up for me today. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled. I believe in this. I believe that if we publish these numbers from the independent apps at 10% of the ecosystem, that at a certain point, we... collectively can monetize that data. Not by selling ads, but the first customers probably should be the hosting companies. Okay, hosting company, you want to give real stats from 10% of the entire ecosystem, which you can extrapolate to 100%, to your customers. Here you go. Data brokers, you want to sell this to the advertisers, to the buying companies, whatever. Now you got to pay for that. And then we divide

32:44 that as a collective amongst ourselves, prorated perhaps. I haven't even thought about that. But just the opportunity. to stick up a big middle finger to all of these secret groups and podcast industry and IAB and all this nonsense that we've known for so long, let's be able to give podcasters at least an actual number. of what is really happening with their podcast. We will be hated for this. Because it's going to ruin a lot of people's days when they find out that the numbers aren't what they've been telling the advertisers for 20 years. But over time, it will make the industry honest. It will have real metrics so everybody can participate. We have a... We have a checks and balances with op3.dev with livewire because obviously so many plays how many downloads i mean we have everything we need to provide the real numbers for podcasters Not advertisers, not networks, podcasters. who then can decide what they want to do with their show, have real, and they should pay for it too, by the way.

34:00 Because this is coming from us. It's time to get paid and time to deliver something of real value, which I believe we can do as a collective. My first take is that data is valuable and I'm all for getting that data out there. That would be... Great. Uh... I think that handles... the half of what the amp group was talking about and that is like plays uh how how long you know how many people and how many how long they got in the episodes. I don't think that handles the exposure aspect of things. And that's the, why not? Was this ad particularly listened to? Why not? But that could be, well, because they do dynamic, they do dynamic ads, right? And unless this would, you know, not everyone gets the same ad. So just because in aggregate. You have the histogram of how many things were played. If the same ad isn't in each episode, it doesn't. I'm with you. So those are deep. But that's not a huge deal. I think even plays, I'm with you on that, that that would be such an eye-opening thing. Let me tell you where this came from.

35:09 With Godcaster, and by the way, I think we should be the first app to... to join the collective. With Godcaster, we've had stats for our stations and for our ministry partners, this is what you call a customer in Christian business, a partner. We've had play, share, engagement, et cetera. Recently, we started doing stats from our app with, what is that program called? Apollo Base? What is it called, Dave? Apptibase. Apptibase. And the stuff that we get out of that is fascinating. and the the paths that people take and and anybody can put this into their app Now we're starting to do. you know, just to see how long people are actually listening. So the day I totally agree with you. There's some, there's some. with dynamically inserted ads, which by the way is remnant crap inventory anyway, but okay, maybe we can actually get those out of the business. by creating something that's very valuable.

36:16 You know, even now you can track in-host reads, how many people actually listen to it. We have so much power. With just 10% of the listening apps out there. That's the point I'm trying to drive home. Yeah, absolutely. Would you be willing to... prepay apps to do it, right? The pool will be very small, I would assume, to start out. Would you be willing to kind of seed that with, because apps are going to need a little bit of incentive to do this. What they're sitting on is actually very valuable. So the question would be. Before we start to see the pennies. coming in, it would be nice to have... uh some dollars there uh and some significant dollars right away to do the first uh the first lift well i said i think The way I envision this... is we first have to prove that we have the data. and that the data is valuable. And it's a rug pull, basically. The rug pull is... Just like we're publishing all kinds of other stats.

37:21 Here's, you know, here's some real top 10 lists. Here's some real data. Maybe something you can query per pot. Anything just to prime the pump and show the advertisers. or anybody who's interested in this data, there's so many different reasons people want to know about this type of information. I think we need to prime the pump. And then we pull the rug and say, okay, now you have to pay for it. I don't... I want to share with everybody because if... If someone's going to front the money, then that person's going to be the guy who controls everything and runs all the money. And I don't really want to be that guy. I would prefer that if we can get enough people interested with a couple API endpoints, you know, I'm not sure exactly how to do it technically. For example, how would... Why would Pocket Cast do this? They would be a good first target for this. I don't think Overcast would be a good first target for this. Between those two, that's a huge chunk of that 10%. Yeah, but I'm not looking at it that way. That's not how we started with...

38:29 Pod friend, you know, then we went to pod verse. It took, it took. those guys a long time. I'm not going to start with them. I want the idea of providing a good example. So, you know, instead of a secret room, what if we, you know, get together and figure out a way to represent this so that people can look at it. People like to copy, right? People like to copy something that's working. So yeah, I love the idea of... a few Intrepid apps putting this out there and then showing, we could even use, start with their definitions, right? Start with the AMP definitions there. And then seeing what's possible. And then it's more of a, it gets the ball rolling a bit. And in fact, at this point, if we can do this, we can actually give you the definition of... podcast. And the definition of a podcast becomes syndicated delivery of media files with precise consumption data for all stakeholders. Now that's a podcast. That's aiming high. But why not? Again, we were told. for over a decade, we couldn't do anything, nothing would work, you know, we can't change anything. It's not true. It's bullcrap. When we really started to do it, and we just did it by doing it, you know, by writing code and by publishing information. People followed and then it's true You need the apps to get it.

39:57 To have some sort of incentive to do it. But the apps have this information, and if they do it, then you basically have what you need. It's just, there's really, if you look at it as a system, they really don't have the incentive right now to do it. So you've got to sell everyone one by one. That's the way this always works. It's always gone. It's always been that way. It's always been about my... That's what I've tried to explain in the past. It's not enough to write a standard or to code something. You have to convince people to use it. And that requires forming relationships, talking to people in the open. Actually, one thing it requires... that is impossible to short circuit. It's impossible to take a shortcut to. is time. It takes time to prove to people that you're serious and that you're also not going anywhere. Like, just staying power. has an effect on other people that they become comfortable that you are not just somebody who's going to pop up, have a proposal and disappear. And the value is in the data. And once we have the data and we have enough of it, then we just say, okay, now you can buy this data from us. And then we all get a piece of that money. And if we feel like it's not enough, we'll say, okay, we need to raise the price. I'm sorry, we're not getting enough out of this. And the customers are obvious. hosting companies right off the bat. And they can take their aggregated hosting

41:29 company data, their download data, compare it to our play data. And they can sell that to the ad. So we don't want to be in the ad business. We want to be in the data business, which is what we're in. All we do is data about podcasts, about metadata, about where stuff lives, where it's at. And now we have this wonderful opportunity. That everybody has this. And I'm just asking. for a few things, a few basics, and we could always build it from there. It sounds like you're describing, I want to make sure that I'm clear. is sort of a co-op. A collective, yes, a co-op, yep. Okay, where... Where all that first. where all the apps, the listening apps, and open source platforms, we all get together. and essentially aggregate our data we aggregate our data in a in a way that fits what groups like this amp. you know, we're giving them more.

42:39 We're giving them much more. This 30 seconds of play is bullshit. Oh, I agree. Yeah. No, it's baloney. But we give them actual real stats. Yes. That really tell the true story. And then that way the listening apps themselves get to share in the revenue of selling this data back to the people who want it. Yes, yes. There's only... I think that's a fantastic idea, but the only thing that I think throws a wrench into the whole thing. is the fact that People don't really want real data. Well, no. See, they want fake data. No, no, no, no. Because the fake data is always bigger.

43:23 No, no, no, no. People, let's define people. As I said. Advertisers, they don't want to know that their stuff isn't working. No, no. Advertisers really want to know. Ad networks don't want to know. People selling ads don't want to know. But who are the advertisers, though? See, that's the thing, is the advertisers. are not the company writ large as a blog. I'm going... I'm going back to my experience. Advertisers want the right information. What they always say in advertising is half of my money is working.

44:04 I just don't know which half. advertisers, the companies, the actual mainly fast-moving consumer goods companies. Package good companies, they want to know. if it's working. And what they will find out is, wow, we've been overspending a lot. We will be hated, which is kind of a position I like. I said that. We will be hated by a lot of people, but it will be the truth. It will be the truth. People buying this from the collective. Buying this data from the collective would be the advertiser directly, not the agents. No, no, no. The advertised, that's why you have to make it public for a while.

44:47 You have to show that you have the truth and this is the proof. That's why... The index is a great place to do this because what are you going to do? Sue us? Who cares? The advertisers will eventually say, hey, these guys say the numbers are this. And you're saying it's this. We would prefer to buy based on this. And you know what might actually happen? The CPMs might actually go up. Because there will be less inventory with more people fighting for it. That's interesting. Yeah, I didn't think about it in those terms. And this is why these groups in secret are like, well, we have to have these metrics, but man, we can't let everybody. really know that it's all bogus so let's make a play 30 seconds that's why they do that exactly that's why they do that and that's why seeing the discussion in the open instead of in secret is super important because if you saw the discussion as it was playing out you would realize that it that that's what the thinking was The thinking was we can't actually see real playthroughs. We have to limit it to 30 seconds so that we can actually register something instead of this person started the podcast, started listening to the podcast, figured out there was 12 ads in a pre-roll and just stopped. And this is why I'm so happy that John is on this show. Because he has done the work out of the goodness of his heart and got some

46:17 value for value help, but he's really doing it because, I don't know, it's cold on the farm. And op3.dev is a fantastic, fantastic resource because now we have even more data. to say, well, Here's what we're seeing in the listening apps. Our 10%, it's just 10%, actually, on no agenda, it's a bigger percentage because I've promoted them. It's 10% versus what we're seeing on download. So now you advertiser can talk to your agency. Dan Granger may have to downsize his office. I don't know. But we're going to get to the truth, and it will be the most truthful. Honest. delivery system of all media, because all measurement of all media is a lie. It's just a lie everybody agreed on. But when we get down to this real truth and it's the true data, what was the promise of the internet, when everyone saw it, well, you know, these numbers don't go up the way we told people they would, so they came up with stuff and we agreed on it and we formed associations and we say, yeah, this is how you do it.

47:32 Now we can show people the truth and that, that will define what a podcast is. This is a big idea. I can drop my mic. It's good. I really like the idea of comparing to legacy RSS downloads. By the way, this is how they refer to downloads as legacy RSS. So that's how I'm going to refer to them from now on. But you're always going to need them because, like you said, Adam, it's useful to compare that to the actual listens, right? Because then everyone can start doing the math themselves. Yes. And like you said, they are looking for, again, taking them at. at face value they're looking for Accuracy right there looking for and this is why DraftKings and better help on the team Exactly want to know if I put a dollar in what am I getting for that? And I don't I don't see that that's necessarily a dangerous or corrosive sort of incentive there and not we earrings and if we're able to give them a better answer than other mediums and I do agree Adam that that data is there it's in fact it's already being collected yeah it's just not being sent or centralized or in a central clearinghouse at the moment and it could be really valuable and Apple will never give it to a Spotify will never give it to us YouTube will never give it to us but we don't really need it That's the beauty.

48:54 We have the 10%. You got 10%? I can extrapolate. Thank you. I can do math. I got a spreadsheet. I know kind of what it is. Now, it gets super interesting down the road, and maybe some apps will follow Apple's cue and say, well, we have, like Fountain, we have this type of. person using our listening app and we feel that they are very valuable and there's something we want to do with the data that we have independently. But that only happens once everyone has seen the aggregate and understands, wow, wait a minute, this is the real stuff. But that data... and I'm saying it up front, rug pull. We're going to show this data.

49:37 I'm saying it. This is the first ever announced rug pull. We are pre-announcing the rug pull. We're going to give it to you for free for X amount of time and then we're going to say, okay, now you like it? Do you like it, little girl? Do you like the lollipop? Now we're going to take it away from you. Now you're going to pay for it because app developers need to get paid. Podcast Index needs to get paid. John Spurlock's op3.dev needs to get paid. And I want to see Daniel J. Lewis get paid. Now, everybody, we have so many people in our ecosystem with so much power, and we've been so successful on the fringe. with chapters and transcripts, etc. that now it's time.

50:18 And this was the big revelation. I've just been bouncing around all week trying to figure out where does it break? The only way it breaks is if we don't do it. But if we do it, and the technical implementation is what will make it, Dave, you know, whether it's an... I don't know, maybe... Do you hit an endpoint when someone hits play? Maybe you upload a CSV file. I don't know what the answers are, but follow numbers, play numbers, and duration of listening. Those are the three big ones. At an episode level, we will have created... a true medium called podcasting. audio or video or PDFs for all I care, it doesn't matter, but we will be able to drive the industry instead of a bunch of people sitting inside of secret locations or in offices or in trade associations. That's not what podcasting has ever been. It's never been that way. Sam Sethi's always...

51:13 already done it before we've ended this episode. So any spec that we develop is going to be applied to everyone else. So that's probably the difficult part that is going to require a lot of input from... from everybody in the community is how How you do this. Here's always the difficult part. is Making. something like this. not burdensome on the app itself because that's a lot of data and a lot of traffic. Well, we've been watching it in real time. time with what Paul has been doing. Yeah, it's like I know that people I know that these apps will be willing to share because they already have I just simply have started asking people Hey, can you give me the follower counts for all the podcasts in your database? I just want... feed URLs and how many people follow that. And Mitch gave it to me and Sam and all the people are just like, yeah, sure. Here you go. Right. I know they're willing to share, but in order to have it be, be like an actual pipeline. or a workflow that doesn't put a lot on them. That's why the pod sage is here. You're going to go back and you're going to think about it. You're going to go camping and you're like, yeah, I got an idea now. I know how to do it. Yes, of course. This is why you're the pod sage. And by the way, I am so

52:46 grateful to hosting companies who've supported Podcast Index. I don't want to sound like, hey, thanks for supporting us. Now we're going to... charge you, but we are. You know? This, no, I... I suggest a two-stage rug pull. First, don't rug pull, then rug pull. No, you do what Nathan says. You say free during beta, then you rug pull that. But then the second rug... pull is one time payment lifetime subscription then a year later you say oh yeah we don't mean that you have to pay every month I just want to do all the things that have all the dark patterns people do to everybody else we should do all that data surcharge yeah data surcharge fee a bandwidth fee Dave, you probably don't remember podcast events, do you? It was a proposal I put together a long time ago. I do. Yeah, I remember that. I was about to mention it earlier on when we were talking. It was actually... Pretty much meant to kind of address this exact problem. It's like, how do we do it? But that was more in a decentralized way. That was assuming that apps... would be sharing it for the benefit of podcasters, not the benefit of... Apps!

53:59 Advertising and apps. So it's like, there's nothing that would prevent you all from sending that to a centralized, let's call it a clearinghouse sort of endpoint, not... every single podcast host. So that could be something that could be off the shelf. pretty much used to do this. My big allergic reaction, I think, to this is this whole centralization aspect. And that kind of goes to the signing as well. It's like as soon as we start really sort of integrating existing apps and hosts. I tend to see that as a bad thing. in general and this would be a massive like out amping amp like we're all working together it's a super amp yeah giga amp my first thought but my first thought on how to do this and and hot takes are usually terrible but my first thought on how to do this was simply to make it decentralized. Okay, well, let me just say it. Let me lay it out this way. Centralization is okay as long as it comes after the fact. And what I mean by that is like... think about pod ping. Podping is decentralized, but you have websites like tiles.podping.org that then recentralize the data back into a feed or a stream or some sort of... product. And all of that. And I mean, it's essentially what podcasting does. Podcasting

55:30 is decentralized, but then you have these listening apps that are. they aggregate the decentralized data back into a single point of contact. So that is fine. And the first thing that popped into my head on how to do that was. Why not broadcast it over Podbean? We define a standard of how the stats are to be laid out. Let's just... for the sake of discussion, let's say that it was something as simple as just a flat comma delimited. CSV file. Okay. I'm not proposing that. I'm just saying let's just keep that in your head as the thing. the format we might, we could work with.

56:17 as long as we specify the columns and the exact data that the way it's supposed to be laid out apps themselves. could produce a file that fits that spec. And then they could just simply pod ping out from time to time. Once an hour. Once a day. Who knows, they could pod ping... out a URL where that data is publicly downloadable. Here's the only problem I have with that. But then everybody would just grab it and we couldn't charge for it. Exactly. This, so I'm going against everything that I've ever stood. for really in podcasting. However, I'm doing it. to advanced podcasting. And what do I mean by that? Oh, I love when I do that. Well, I should have said, why? Here's why. Yes, yes. Please question yourself. There's already a huge amount of trust in Podcast Index. There's entire businesses. that depend on Podcast Index being around. several apps could not live without it. So there's a trust. And I think we've earned that trust and we deserve that trust. Everything around us, all the things we complain about involve... money. Now. I'm not interested in advertising. I am interested in not just...

57:43 helping the apps that have been frankly struggling. for years or decades just to kind of keep the new version going, update with the apps. store, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Oh, now I need a server. but also to Have the ecosystem grow with more apps. Because, hey. I can actually participate in the data collective. And all right, I'm a small app, so maybe I get $5 a month or $5 a week or whatever it is. But now there's your incentive. There has to be an incentive and it has to be financial. And we will outstrip the demand, outstrip the, look at, Apple is already 30% of my listeners use Apple. That's a lot less than it was. Now, the other 30% is probably Spotify, but I have 7%. the Podverse. I've got 3 or 4% fountain. So this is an ecosystem that will grow, but we're not getting into the ad business. Lots of people want to know how their podcast is doing. Just how's my podcast doing? We got this many downloads. What does that mean? Well, now the hosting company can say for, you know, they charge 20 bucks. So maybe they have to pay 50 cents or 25 cents a user into the collective. This is exactly what's going on. This is exactly what's happening with your podcast. You see. It

59:15 starts to benefit everybody. Why the sigh? Because... It's not the tech of this that... that makes me nervous it's the administrative overhead of having to like accept money and then make payouts to people and all that kind of stuff. But we have an intern. No, but wait, but wait, but wait. That's why we have the rug pull timeline. We have plenty of time. First, we're not there yet. The first thing we have to do is prove that we have the data. and that that data is valuable. That comes from publishing that data continuously, it being a thing, people going to look at it, podcasters saying, well, here's what I'm seeing, here's what I've got. Once we have that, we may decide at the end of the road, we're going to do something else. We all want a chocolate bar. I don't care. But we have to show... The so-called industry that we, as a collective, we have the true data, and you're full of shit.

1:00:25 And this is the real stuff. So stop meeting in secret. This is what podcasting is. And a podcast is... A syndicated... I had that line written down. Syndicated delivery of media files with precise consumption data for all stakeholders. Everything else is not a podcast because here's your proof. These are podcasts. Can be video, can be HLS video, can be downloads. I don't care what it is. Is there going to be a rug pull countdown timer on the website? Yes, definitely. On Times Square. On the big board. Like the debt clock, yes. On the Flatiron building.

1:01:08 If we do that, if we do part A... Part B will come naturally. And so I'm not worried about that part at all. And once we've all figured it out, and there may be five other ideas of what to do with this data, but at least it'll be this group. My... My... -Alice, not a fear. -Cause we're all gonna get... stomped out and rubbed out. By the heel. of the podcast industrial complex over time if we don't do something like this. MUTT expectation If this is truly successful. And this data is published. for all to see and the extrapolations are made. expectation is that People would immediately see... how much the advertising narrative. is built on just complete fabrication. - Absolutely. and the numbers will expose. that very clearly. I disagree with that. Only because they're seeing this today, Dave. So the stats you get from Apple are incredibly detailed. And the stuff, I don't know if you've seen a bumper dashboard and that sort of thing. There's companies that will scrape. for a particular show that like go out to Apple, they'll go out to Spotify, they'll go out to YouTube and they will

1:02:39 present it all. So they're actually seeing this today, that bad news or whatever you want to call it. And there's, you know, this is basically Mr. Meister's job is to kind of. educate people as to this. So I don't think it would be much of a shock. And I think, again, I think they would love this information. I think they would love more of it. And we could be a good, this is a big idea, but I think. It could serve as an example. And just like with the namespace. The shape of the data, I think, is probably the number one thing. Like, what are we capturing and what... what do we think is valuable and what is valuable not only to the apps, but it's really like what is valuable to the stakeholders? And I think a lot of this would be to talk to folks. in the game, right? In the advertising game and say like, would this be useful if we did this? And that's part of the open discussion, I think, that you'd have to talk about. We need Dan Granger on this show, which I'm sure. Yeah, run it by Dan. I'm sure he'll come on, Dave. Yeah, I'll holler at him. But to finally be able to define what a podcast is. You know, we just added a little bit to it. But we define it, not these other guys. Personally, I think the podcast definition is a little overreach. I don't think you have to send stuff to podcastindex.org to be called a podcast. I'm not saying that.

1:04:04 I think holding up podcasting as a great way, podcasting the term being known as a great way to get accurate. stats on how things are just like kind of digital is, I think that would be great. That's, and it's sort of like, it's turning the weakness that a lot of folks see in podcasting right now, which is the coordination and the chaos of it into an advantage. It kind of like flips the narrative. Here's the great thing, John. It's not exclusive to us. If someone comes along and they have a better way of doing stuff with that data. then all the apps can send that data to them. Yeah, totally. And Apple could just look and kind of what they do, they pay attention to all this stuff. They just don't contribute. And if they see, hey, this is working. Uh, you know, who knows?

1:04:51 They might. participate in as well or participate in something similar and that's this is why the shape of the data is probably the most important thing. So it's not exclusive to us, but I think it would move pod. I'm, I'm passionate about podcasting and it, and I'm passionate about it being on RSS, but I specifically say in my definition, Cindy. Delivery so it could be something else. I hope it never is but it could be and it doesn't have to be us aggregating it I'd like it to be. But it doesn't have to be if we do a better job. I mean, it's still like podcast index itself. We have to go to the GitHub, go build your own. Go ahead. I think everything is open source at this point. point go build your own they're just today looking at uh dave's code yeah go ahead go go build your own podcast index and some people don't want to do that But I think it is the perfect time. When I see these types of groups, and they got the advertising in there, and DraftKings.

1:05:52 and better help they spend a lot of money and so they they want they want to know what they're spending their money on. That's why they're in there. And so if we say, hey, here's the real numbers. I think we'll be loved by advertisers, but we'll also be loved by speaking bureaus and people who just... want exposure for their book or whatever it is. And then if you want, hey, break it down by app. Hey, it turns out I've got a huge following on Podverse. Let me go talk to Mitch over there. And what can I do, Mitch? Can we do some business here? We started out with podcasting. I happen to have been there. When it was this. Hey, man, it's all open. We all love each other. And we got fucked. I'm sorry.

1:06:37 That just slipped out. We really did. Everybody made money around us. Man, I was going to come in here and be optimistic. I think podcasting is like rocking it right now. We have a video solution that works great. Everything's still in the open. is amazing. It is. Podcast technology is rocking because there's people that care. I'm super positive. In fact, I'm amped. I'm amped up. Because this is an opportunity that I see this like, wow, this is once in a lifetime. We've proven that we can do stuff. We've proven we can move mountains. We can change the big boys by just doing it. So why don't we do it? That's my pitch. I'm gonna- From Spurlock, I take that as a huge compliment. Very big idea. I love big ideas. Yeah. Thank you. I mean, is there enough energy to even talk about HTTP signing requests anymore? I'm exhausted. PCDC? We got to work on the name, though. Well, yeah. That's a small thing. Yeah, yeah. I didn't have time for acronyms. I just liked...

1:07:50 Podcast Plus. Podcast Plus. data collective plus plus two pluses So... Yeah, I'm kind of wiped out too. But if you want to talk about anything else, I'm good. I basically just spewed my, I blew my wad that I've been holding up for an entire week. I literally have no energy for HTTP signing discussion at this point. It's a bad idea. Let's not do it. That clearly seems to be the sentiment. I was actually interested to see that, uh... Mr. Overcast sort of. Not only made one very long contribution, but two. And this is not something that normally happens. So I think we might have hit a nerve there. What contributions? Just to the discussion, yeah.

1:08:47 Yeah, to the open discussion. Well, I mean, so I guess I'll... I guess. I thought there were a month. Where do I start? I think... What? Here's my concern. Let me just try to... Throw dirt on my idea. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, this is on the HTTP signing. It's topic shift. Oh, okay, okay. I think Did the issue. A-A rose. from a very...

1:09:27 I know how it arose because I talked to Tom. about it. The desire for better identification for download agents. head. origin in HLS video because abuse of HLS video Those data sizes is extremely expensive. Now does Buzzsprout have any HLS video out there at the moment? Yeah, they do. Yeah, they support each other. Not in fees, though. Well, I don't know. I mean, they're supporting Apple spec.

1:10:08 but um but they are definitely serving HLS video. Right, but it's not in Fiji. I think the ��� No, it's getting abused. It's getting abused because people are scraping the HLS stream out of the podcast.apple.com website. And you are even only using the private API. For distribution, it's already getting abused. And that's the concern. And so here, let me just lay out my... what seems like a devil's advocate argument at this point because what i What I want to do is not... care about HTTP signing. I don't want to have, I mean, like... That's not the- the thing I want to be, like the hill I want to die on. Well, he titled it well.

1:10:57 It's more client identification, right? Like, do we want to add stronger client identification to podcasting? But I see their concerns, and I think they are identifying. problem. that's going to become A big problem. In HTTP signing, may not be what everybody wants to do. And that's fine. I'm completely fine with whatever the group decides. That's why we discuss things in the open. But... Video downloads are large, expensive things. And it's just different than audio. The... People Abuse? I agree it's important for that very reason, by the way. And I want to talk about this only as it involves HLS. I want to like. I don't think anybody has ever proposed that audio be part of this traditional MP3 downloaded audio podcasts. But so if we're talking about only HLS video. Then I don't see- there having to be any sort of secret meeting or like Zoom call in order to get your data trusted. To me, what this is, is. If you send a request for HLS Media, To RCDN. We would require you to

1:12:29 sign the request. than if at some point in the future we determine that you are an abusive bot. we will stop respecting your requests. But it would not be blocked and then you have to contact us to get access. It would be everyone immediately has access. That's by default. it would default open. And then it would only close access when there was an abuse that happened. To me, that's how I understood his proposal. And like... That seemed reasonable to me. Tell me how that's not reasonable.

1:13:15 So I thought, I actually, I thought you were going to have Tom on the show. I thought that would have been great. But, um... I think it is reasonable. And in fact, it would make my life a lot easier as well. I spend... Probably way more time than I should have. should spend every day. battling the same sort of thing with OP3. Now I don't block requests. But I do make sure that requests that say they're from Overcast, but then are hammering the site a thousand times, I have to exclude those, right? And it's always a new sort of challenge every day. out there. There's new bots, there's new things pretending to be other things because the user agent HTTP is not should never have been and is not a good reliable signal of who's calling, right, in HTTP. In HTTP, you do that with the authorization header. You don't do that with the user agent header. But the question comes in like, do we want to introduce... Should we filter? Podcast media now. So we're not talking about client stats, but the media that has always been open in podcast feeds. Do we now want to... add an additional layer of who are we going to send this media versus what are they doing.

1:14:28 And I think Buzzsprout does this today. and all these other companies, what they do today is they look at requests coming in, right? And they make their application level firewalls. more complex over time. And to me, there's no, it is for audio today because it's actually similar. to video. In fact, the way it HLS works. HLS is not one massive file, right? It's like six different encodings, but six second chunks. So with HLS, it's actually far easier to filter on the server side and detect abuse quicker. I actually happen to, I've been working with some folks and I'm actually working on an OP3 integration with HLS. You can see a lot more, but some of the patterns are still exactly the same, right? There are a lot of auto downloads, especially in audio, right? So those look like someone's just ripping through the video, so you can't really trap those. And then the videos that are kind of live are human scale, right? So you can see. six seconds chunks requested about every six seconds.

1:15:36 Those are easy. It's really, we're talking about a subset of a subset of requests that are, give me all the variants, right? Over and over and over and over. And you know how long it takes to rack up a appreciable bandwidth bill? off of several six second chunks, it's a long time. So to me, it's more of an abstraction breakage. I don't think we should be in the business of filtering. Like if a podcast is putting data out to the media, out to the world. To me, I don't think we should be discriminating based on the color. And yes, that even includes bots because one man's bot is another man's app. right so let's say someone uses claude to create their own podcast app right who knows what they're going to use as a user agent who knows what they're going to have as a back end it's really not something i think we that would be good to go down in general and In the short term, it would help, particularly on the server aspect. things and the PSP is sort of mainly made up of hosting companies. This is why I would love Marco to kind of like participate in that a little bit more. I think they'd love to have him, but that would create some balance in the force. But no one's really speaking up for the app side of things and the innovation side on the client aspect of things.

1:16:52 I think it's dangerous. to sort of... view every media fetch, yes, including video, as something that can only happen between known entities. And let's be clear, like this would be used to filter requests, right? Whether to slow them down or whether to block them. And I do have a bit of information as for my position, like looking at all the podcasts that are released in the world or whatever. There is a list of podcast companies that block more than others, right? And try to do this more aggressively than others. um and buzzprout is at the top of that list right so they block more aggressively than any other company. So when I saw that Tom was involved with this, I wasn't necessarily that surprised. I think number two... would be red circle. And then there's like a huge drop off. Like basically no one blocks media requests. And to me, that's a good thing. I don't know if you saw part of Marco's comment was he. Basically, Marco gets blamed when things get blocked, right?

1:17:56 Of course. So BuzzFrost never blocked. This is an app problem, right? And to me, I think we should basically do as much work as possible to make app lives easier because that's where really the current problem that we have in podcasting is. I think the... Having to do more work, having to do more work, for John having to do more work for Tom is a price I think we need to pay in smart kind of server filtering instead of adding more integration between who's calling and the media itself. What do you mean by smart? That's my basic argument. What do you mean by smart server filtering? So every, uh... every company now when requests come in right they can they get the logs right so old school is you look at the logs after the fact and then every day they go in and tweak either by ip or by user agent and ip right so this is used to be a very slow process and now basically think of it as this process is speeding up so that it can almost happen. during the day, right? So they see something happening right now, they can quickly turn that one off or slow it down.

1:18:59 And if it were me, I would kind of like slow these requests down, right? Because that's one thing to... uh sort of make sure that this is so if someone sits there and hits download on a movie and it takes an appreciable amount of time to download. That's fine for a human. But that would really squash any sort of dumb transcription bot that's just kind of doing things over and over. Also, transcription bots are not going to read movies, but... You're saying tar pitting instead of blocking. I wouldn't even, if tarpitting means slow down, yeah, I wouldn't. necessarily serve weird videos for abuse. I would actually just slow it down so that it's human scale in the worst, right? If we do determine that this looks like... something that's abusive. And yes, honestly, I know that that's difficult, but maybe we could come up with common server libraries or even third-party services. You know, something like an HLS shield, right? Where if you don't want to do this work yourself... You can just put something in front of it and that will do the work for you. So are you saying that... Go ahead. No, sorry. Go ahead. Are you saying that? Are you saying that you advocate for a hosting company? to never block any media download for any reason i think yes i think that is something that podcasting has been for 20 years and i think that's a dark road to go down that we should block requests that we don't. We should be innovating in how to serve media as much as possible to everyone. I don't think, unless it's obviously

1:20:31 an abuse and that can be Detected by use, not by caller. I think we should try as hard as we can to serve Serve media without discrimination. Yes, including the box. But it's not, again, I will make another disclaimer because people tend to forget. things I'm out. I'm giving my best attempt to argue for this. as with everything I've got, just so that we can have the best debate possible about whether or not to even spend our time on something like this. It's not about... effort.

1:21:14 To me, it's about cost. so If somebody, and I can tell you that this has happened. If somebody's bot goes wild. and downloads terabytes of data. I don't see how... We can say that a... Hosting companies should just sit back. And just accept that and just pay that bill when it's clearly not a person who is one like. What the hosting company, the sort of the contract that hosting companies have with the podcasting ecosystem is that they're going to serve their customer, the creator. And by doing so, they also facilitate the media delivery from the creator to the listener. And when it's clear that the listener is no longer part of this transaction. then there's no more contractual obligation there to the hosting company. And I think that this has a problem for decentralization also, because take a company like... Take a hosting company like Pinecast. It's a decent-sized hosting company, independent. Matt Basta. It's an independent hosting company. He seems to do pretty well.

1:22:44 He's got a, I don't know how many podcasts he delivers at this point, but it's, I don't know, a few thousand at least. and at At the scale of HLS abuse that I've heard of so far, I don't think that Pinecast could even do HLS. Unless they did it in blocking. There's a lot of fear coming into this. It takes a very long time to download terabytes and terabytes of HLS segments. It's happening, John. In aggregate. I can give you the people to talk to. It is happening. Yeah. I just think that it can be detected and should be detected. I don't think that it's...

1:23:26 You can download terabytes of audio in the same way. What does Pinecast do? Or what is some even better argument? is what does someone like James Cridland do, right? So he hosts his own show. Let's say he wanted to start doing HLS. Right. That's even, you know, he, is he going to, he probably is not going to go and have a dynamic. HLS filter on his side. So that's probably a, but the question is, is like, who, like, is, can this abuse be? combated without making the media. effectively private and that's i would hope that we sort of exhaust we use all of our kind of innovation that we have in the group to kind of look at that specifically. You know, take Flycast, right?

1:24:06 So Flycast is a great new company, and this is the awesome thing about podcasting, right? They just came out of nowhere, and all of a sudden... They're the producer of basically the highest quality HLS videos out there in open podcasting today, right? So... They publish more variants, higher quality variants, in more podcast episodes using alternate enclosure than any of the existing providers. And they are somehow able to do this. So I think it's, I don't... you know, obviously I, I'm just one person. It's just my opinion, but I think this should be something that. Hosting companies are compared against each other with, right? Like how open can we make our media? Because ultimately it's going to come down to the apps. Someone is going to say, I can't play this video in this app because it's on this host. And then we get... to this matrix of apps, servers, competitors. But why would that happen?

1:25:01 What you're describing is a closed ecosystem, and that's not what this proposal is. This proposal is not for closing the ecosystem. This proposal is for adding a verification metric. Where you can, where if somebody spoofs your user agent, the CDN can tell that that's not you. And they can block the correct entity that is abusing and not you. Like what Marco was describing. with Overcast was middlemen that sit in between. and say something like ad blockers. And or or lousy. Or VPNs a lot is filtered.

1:25:46 Or VPNs, yes. But none of that applies to HTTP signing requests. None of those things are factors there. And what you're saying to me already, though, is that... Buzzsprout is already blocking and Red Circle, they're already blocking abusive traffic. But that does not show up. in normal client app download. We're not seeing rampant. failures of downloads. for major podcast listening apps. from Buzzsprout and Red Circle. So they're doing this blocking intelligently already, even with the limited metric, even with the limited ability to do identification that they already have. This would allow them to do it even more intelligently. And again, only for HLS video. which Overcast does not support video anyway, so this would not even be part of the equation for that app. so like i'm sure he'd like to right i'm sure if it was there if there are videos in the feed that he would definitely take a look at that i don't think we should use overcast necessarily as Even though he was very kind of like adamant on this point, I don't think we should basically do this for him necessarily. But I think it's sort of a dangerous, to me, it's kind of a, you know, if you view the abstraction line where like all the apps are on top of the line and all the hosting companies are below the line, it's sort of this new. kind of the hands sneaking over back and forth and saying like,

1:27:18 okay, so we know this. And again, Tom's a great guy. Like Buzzsprout is amazing company. Like it's, that's why it's sort of, that's why, honestly, that's why I chose to add to that particular thread. Whereas I don't, you know, I don't necessarily love to get into all the GitHub threads, but I think it's important. because it is a narrowly good idea for certain players in the space, right? Where it's like not necessarily good long-term. Like what if Spotify said, you know, tomorrow we're coming out with something called verified apps, right? Where... If you want to fetch audio from Megaphone or Anchor, We're going to have you, we're going to do a signed cryptographic thing and then you can register with us. We're not going to block you based off of it. But that's not the, that was never the proposal. There was never a registration involved. There was never any sort of coordination. It was purely sign it. And it's like basically just like math This request came from someone that owns this domain name, basically, is what the public key does, or this public key, which is more signal, right? So that's, I totally see, and again, I can argue the other side, I hope as good as Tom. It would help OP3, right?

1:28:32 Because I could say, hey, these are veris... Apple downloads and these are non verified Apple downloads again in the fictional world where Apple would do this um it doesn't that well actually that's probably important if i'm someone that's doing uh this abuse do you think it was intentional the hls abuse that you're talking about dave or was it unintentional Um, I think that it is... My just... Of course, there's no way to prove any of this. Yeah, but I think most of the abuse... just from what I see on the index side. Most of the abuse comes from carelessness. Right. And what user agents do they use? Yeah, a bunch of vibe coding careless stuff.

1:29:16 Yes. Yes. And they're going to continue to use browser user agents, right? Oh, time out. Is it dinner time? I am just alerting the pod sage that we are at 2.03 and 1.29 on the counter, so it's up to you. I'm happy to sit here. It's my fault. I shouldn't have gotten into this conversation. very long conversation. I think it goes to like what podcasting almost is. And like, if media should be always public versus not for video and audio, but. So it's my fault. No, it's no one's fault. Dave has a job he has to get back to. And... I think the issue- What do you think, Adam? You invented podcasting. Oh, what? Someone asked me my opinion? What? I mean, should the media, that it's always been readily available, should the media be free for any caller, regardless if they're faking their user agent or not? But that's not a fair characterization. I do not care. If this proposal goes forward or if it dies today, I really ultimately do not care because the community gets to have its way. That's the way this thing works. But I do deeply care about whether or not it's fairly characterized so that we're all agreeing that we're... either. that we're arguing for the same thing.

1:30:41 And it's not, and the way you described it is not accurate. But there is no closing of the ecosystem. It is a ��� what you're seeing and describing is a ��� potential blocking of valid traffic in the future. And that's not. technical thing that is a behavioral thing that may or may not happen It's true. It may or may not happen. I'm just curious what his thoughts are on it. My thoughts are... I would like. I obviously, I feel that... From the beginning, it's just been open and free access and do whatever. Um... I... know that video is an expensive data hog and people need to pay for it. And that includes... Bot stuff. However, I would personally appreciate being able to identify as something valid and tell a company that has blocked something from me. This is valid and this is why. Now, if they decide to block me, okay, there's nothing I can do about it, but they're probably going to block me anyway. because they don't know who I am. And I've had this very issue with stuff I've been doing for Godcaster. And... It would be if there's a technical way to identify and say, hey, I'm signing this request and this is me and here's what I'm doing. And for

1:32:13 them to say, okay, why are you... Why is it so much or whatever, you know, that may alert me to something? And that would be totally something that I could mess up And I have. I think it would benefit... So to have. But by the same token, you know, it's like... The problem is I use Linode instances, they're blocked by everybody. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, I need to use Linode instance because I can't just have everything running on my systems at home. So that's where I'd like to be able to sign it and say, this is me, and here's what I'm doing, and here's why. And if there's something you're seeing that is out of, we're all pretty, I think we're all good people in general, certainly at that system level. Someone says, hey man, you're downloading 50 copies of this file every minute.

1:33:03 Oh crap, thank you. You know, I don't see why someone would block me just because. you know, I'm doing something different, but if there's an abuse, hey, it's an easy way to see who that is and how to get in touch with me. Does that make sense? I can see how So I just know the way I behave with the API. Cause just like, cause like you, John, I'm, I'm fighting bot traffic on a daily basis. And what I... see often is I'll see traffic that becomes abusive. suddenly there's just some new user agent that pops up out of nowhere and just starts just hammering everything we have. Have you seen the ones that actually apologize in the user agent? They're like, if this is causing you trouble, underscore, like, I'm sorry. I have no idea. There must be some code that does this because I see a bunch of these every day. And the only way I know how to handle that traffic... is to, um, is to rate limit it by hand. and start giving them a 429 because I don't know who this thing is. It'll be some vague user agent coming from... you know, an Asian CDN. I have no idea what this is. It could be just a mistake in their code. Or they didn't read the terms of service or who knows. And so all I know to do is to get their attention, I have to 429 them.

1:34:36 And get them, and that will get their attention. Suddenly their thing fails. And then they, they re in most of the time. I never hear another peep from, from it. It just, the traffic disappears and change their users. Yeah. Well, no, but I never see the same behavior again. It just, it just goes away. But occasionally I'll 429 somebody and I'll get an email and say, hey, I can't access the index anymore. And I will go, I will work with them and tell them what they were doing. And they're like, oh, we didn't know there was a mistake. This very thing happened with a podcast app. It was backfilling transcripts. And I was like, no, you can't. scrape you know every episode in the end you can't scrape 150 million episodes I will give you a better way let's work together because it's gonna it's going to degrade the platform for everybody else who also needs it and so like The... So What I see with something like signing... is the ability for... Somebody like a Buzzsprout or a Red Circle or somebody like that.

1:35:54 to identify, to go ahead and say, okay, look, this is overcast. This is his public key. This is... Podverse's public key. This is Fountain's public key. I know these guys. And if they have a spike in downloads, I can go ahead and whitelist them ahead of time so that they never get blocked. And so that they, I can, if I see something that. It looks like a really strange change in... and traffic patterns, instead of blocking them, I can reach out to them and say, hey, here's something that's going on, just like I had to do with Fountain. And Oscar ended up... identifying a problem where they were getting bought abused on their end. And that abuse was flowing through to the Podcast Index API.

1:36:45 And Oscar was very thankful that I gave him that information so he could fix the problem on his end. We've identified a lot of things like in Apple Podcasts. There have been bugs in the past, and those show up immediately in all these systems. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why I wonder if the HLS thing is also a bug. In Overcast, they continue to have... like a redownloading bug. So you'll see a lot of the Overcast share go up sort of artificially in the last few months, and then people are starting to realize this. So that's a case where you wouldn't want to block Overcast ever, really. But it's a good way to say like, oh, we think it's overcast. And whether it's signed or not. I mean, you can tell an Overcast user agent, right?

1:37:28 And I don't think signing is necessarily required to do this. Just so you know, John. My robot went to go get the Pod News Weekly Review. All robots do, they just decide to do it differently today. And it said, oh, I got blocked. But the Overcast user agent worked. Literally. Exactly. Came out of cloud code. And I think actually James does a very good job. He's a bit grumpy on this week's episode, but he does a lot of traveling. Like, I think... he does a very good job of laying out why this is important. And really, it's more about stronger client identification, right? That's really what this is. It's like, who is calling? Who's fetching the media in this case? So that's, I think, the strongest argument. And I do agree that the semantics of whether it's using signing that looks... like mastodon or something else and there's a lot of prior art here because websites are being sort of pulled excessively by bots and there's a similarity there. So I don't know that a new solution isn't necessarily even needed here. We might just want to piggyback on one of those. Whether or not, I think it's more of a... I'm sort of not looking at it from the technical side. I'm looking at it, is this a good idea? And so everyone just needs to be, hey, is this a good idea not only for all the hosting companies, which it would be a good idea for. But also the apps and also the services that can't speak for themselves because they're not listening to the podcast. They lose. Well... I know that

1:39:00 one of... a very valuable website to me. that I used that was an enthusiast website for 70s model Ford trucks. Incredible resource that had every technical diagram and detail and owner's manuals and forums and everything. It's basically just been completely knocked offline by AI scrapers. It finally just bit the dust this week. It's been limping along. But it just gets hammered all the time because they're getting constantly crawled and ingested and they don't have the technical expertise to be able to deal with that. And so I know that. this new era we're in with a because i see the same thing that that adam does i see Claude Code. When I use it, sometimes I see it. just morphing its user agent to impersonate other stuff until finally something works. And so, like... I guess I've made... I've made the best argument I can for it. And I don't think it'll go any further than it already has. I think this is a complete wash and it's going to be, it's not, it's just going to die on the vine. But it, at least we had the discussion and, you know, we can actually make a decision. And it may become something in the future that we hold in. to the side and say At some point in the future, the ecosystem becomes so threatened by malicious traffic or impersonated traffic that we do have

1:40:32 to blow the dust off this thing and actually do something. And I go back to the apps. We don't often hear from the... larger apps right that really would be impacted by this and if if you make it useful for them to do and they see the value in it, then I think that's something that we can now say, okay, both sides agree on this. This makes a lot of sense. Yeah, and I think you're right about that, and that's why I was very sensitive to making sure that we understand. that we're actually talking about the real thing and not just talking about fears of things. Because if we're just talking about being scared about something that sounds like it might be a problem. I don't think that actually... communicates the real benefit of the thing. You know, I just want everybody to actually be talking about the reality and not the fear. I really need to stop this. I had a rebut to that, but I'll stop. No, please rebut. Rebut me. Well, I think all of this is based on fear now, right?

1:41:38 I think. That's fair. That's fair, by the way. And a lot of it is, I've... I, me as a hosting company, right? I have a model that is great, right? I have a margin that makes me a very good living and I can afford multiple people, right? And like, we've figured this formula out. I pay this. much for bandwidth and I charge my customers this. Video throws a wrench into that. Right? And so... The question is like, even before it happens, right? I've heard a lot, even before a lot of people had their implementations, I've heard a lot of people saying, oh, we can't, you know, this is, it's very interesting. What will other people do? What can we afford to do? And that sort of thing. So I think a lot of, and again, there's companies that do not filter today, right? In fact, no one really does. And I just think we should be in the position of always saying, like, let's get this out there as open as possible and not and wait to see what happens. Right. Wait to see actual abuse coming in. from crawlers. I doubt there are crawlers that even parse HLS, right? There's very few. And whether they know to go to the podcast feed, go to the alternate enclosure, and then download. something that would even be noticeable, right? Which again, we're talking about the video segments. I'm not sure that that's the case, right? And I'd be willing to let's get the data that we have out in the open. and know what we're tackling instead of kind of the fear of something that yes videos are a lot larger But let's take a look at what's actually happening before we start to make any

1:43:09 decisions. And again, that goes to fear. Yeah, I think that's very fair. I'm a fear Dave's going to be late to his day job. Oh, sorry, Dave. I'm very afeard of this. Okay. No, I think, I think that's a good way to end it, John. And, and maybe the best way to move forward. If somebody, if, if the hosting companies really think this is, is something valuable is for them to put out some data, some numbers that, that detail the abuse so that we can all. sort of appreciate the scale and then make appropriate decisions. I think that's a good way to end it. Yep. Okay, do we have time to thank some people, Dave?

1:43:49 Yeah, yeah. Okay. Absolutely. What is this? Is this a... Free Friday for you? Yeah, I don't have to go back to the office. Oh, oh. Okay, if I'd known that, I would have let you yammer on for another 15 minutes about all this stuff. No, that's good. I think everything that needed to be said was said. Do you feel that way, John? Like Dave was saying, yeah, what's cool is that this is being done in the open. I would invite everyone to go to the GitHub thread. Excuse me, it's Chatham House Rules. You can't talk about this after the podcast is over. Well, that's the thing. I actually, I don't know, maybe I'm too cynical, but like those threads, one of the audiences, I feel like now every time I put something into the GitHub thread, the audience is like current and future Claude's, right?

1:44:34 It's like, I want to make sure that like this is on the record, right? This argument is out there. Not for necessarily people that are reading it now, but like, hey, at the time, some people were thinking about this. And that gets ingested as part of the summary. I can confirm the robot definitely can read GitHub and make decisions. I can confirm that. Because it just updated mine. So there we go. And if you take a look at the app, you'll see the feedback. from the hosting side is a lot different than the feedback from the app side. No kidding. And I think that means something. We want to thank Salty Crayon for his row of ducks, 22-22. He says, howdy, Dave and Adam. I was considering stopping altogether. Until all the positive and optimistic tech info was brought to this meeting by Adam in regards to... to the index in the future of P2.0.

1:45:21 This gave me a recharge. Thanks, Dave and Adam. You're welcome. I'm happy to hear that. 1111 from Martin Lindeskog. He says, to Dave. This is coming in from true fans. I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member. Groucho Marx. Yes, indeed. 1776 from Martin Luther Kogut. I'm happy to join Adam's Accord today. I asked a guy on LinkedIn if he knew about podcasting initiative. What is the podcasting initiative? He worked for Klang AI. I will test out the transcript service for a forthcoming podcast about the Orison region. That's the greater Copenhagen region. We will talk both in Danish and Swedish, okay? and he sends a 1701 he's funding the show today testing testing go podcasting starship boostagram of 1701 uh let's see we got uh 33 3330 from na millennial from fountain thank you for the podcast index api Claude complimented its design. I'm sure it's great. Hashtag vibe coding.

1:46:22 No. Mike Newman, 17,776, boosting from the Bitcoin Valley. Stay frosty, my friends. And with that, I hit the delimiter. I've got a boostergram that I missed. from Martin Lindeskoog last week. Did I miss it too? I think so, because he sent it to me in email. He said, Dave, yes, this is 9252 Satoshis. He said, Dave, yes, had a ball with Mike Newman. Co-listening and chatting, maybe I should drink some moonshine or whiskey next time. It turns out that a kinesiologist in Gothenburg is also a whiskey collector. Maybe I will get him starting a podcast on whiskey with a twist. Going back to Mike, I'm happy to be on the leaderboard for the Mike Newman Show. I've listened to the podcast for three hours, 37 minutes, and paid $90,000. 252 satoshis cheers Okay, so I think that was some streams. Streaming sets. Money. Yeah. Um, You got some more, let's see, you got some PayPals.

1:47:30 You got Mark Van Patten. MVP. Thank you, MVP. He's the end of show mixes for No Agenda. He said, I listened to the Adam Accord segment with a stupid smirk on my face. Adam Accord. Not because it was stupid, but because you guys were just nailing it. V for V, baby. Yeah, yay. Let's see. We've got Cameron Rose, 25 bucks. Thank you, Cameron. Thank you, Cameron. Ralph Estep. $50. Thank you, Ralph. Appreciate you. Martin Lindesko, there's one buck from Martin. Brendan Mulligan at Podpage, 25 bucks. Thank you, Brendan. Joseph Marocca, $5. Oh, look. It's Oscar Mary, $200. Baller, shot caller, 20-inch blaze on the Impala.

1:48:18 Thank you. Thank you. That is, yes, that's it for the PayPals. And we do have some boost. We do have one booster gram. One. In addition to what you read. And that's CSB, 25,000 sats. Nice. Through Fountain, he says. Howdy Dave and Adam. Today I'd like to recommend a podcast called No Agenda, where Adam Curry is chatting with half Polish, half Czech guy called Dvorak. Dvorak's mom literally had a Polish passport so he could get a Polish passport too, if only he wanted. 25% ancestry is enough. He has 50%. Fun fact. Many years ago, Dvorak gave me an interview for my now discontinued podcast, but you two are stonewalling me. Shame on you. Yo, CSB AI arch wizard. *Gasps* Stonewalling, yes. I gotta do that.

1:49:13 I gotta do that. I gotta do it. I got to do it too. I'm just trying to clear the decks. Wow, what a board meeting. I'm wiped. Yeah, I was hot in here. There's no AC. Sorry about that. Do you guys do this every week? No AC? This is crazy. Well, my studio is AC supplied, but quiet. Oh. The way it should be. Hey, John, thank you so much for being here today, man. We really appreciate it. Yeah, it was fun. Yes. Thank you for what you do with op3.dev and just all the contributions. It's really appreciated. And I hope we can keep the data collective moving forward. Yeah, I like the idea. You need a fancy marketing site where the background moves around as you move the mouse cursor around. Yeah, I'm not going to do any of that. No. No, we're not going to do any of that. We're just going to get it going one way or the other. But ultimately, these things are up to Dave. No pressure. No pressure. I think it's a very, very interesting idea. And I think I like the idea of building it and getting it out there. And that will attract sort of like, hey, this is really. interesting and at least it's an example that other people can take a look at. So I really like the idea. I wouldn't mind if you built it. That'd be fine for me too. No, I'm serious.

1:50:30 I mean, it doesn't have to all be Dave. I'm just saying it's, there's, that was just my initial thought. It's like, oh, it makes sense. Here we are. As I said, it's... comes down to trust. A lot of these apps would fall apart if we didn't exist. Yeah, let's keep thinking about it. It's a very interesting idea. All right. Dave, my brother, thank you so much, man, as always. Good to catch up with you. Yeah, good to catch up with you. You've had two great ideas in two weeks in a row. You know what it is? Testosterone. testosterone testosterone hot tea hot tea everybody hey boardroom thank you for being here we'll be back friday with more of your podcasting 2.0 you you you you You have been listening to Podcasting 2.0. Visit podcastindex.org for more information. Go podcasting! We have the true data and you're full of shit.