Episode 154: Fedified Blob

0:00 Adam Curry: Oh, podcasting 2.0 for November 10 2023, Episode 154, feta find blob Oh, hello, everybody, it's time once again, for podcasting 2.0 only born from the hazards champagne room. Here's where we discuss the current state of the art in podcasting. What's coming in the future what is happening right now everything going on at podcast index.org The namespace podcast index dot social. I'm Adam curry here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country and in Alabama. That's not dirt on his hands. It's just a little bit of rust. Say hello to my friend on the other end ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Jones.

0:44 Dave Jones: So, yes, a young discovered tonight at dinner young people have they don't understand humor? They're afraid of it. Adam Curry: They're afraid of it. Yes. I believe they're afraid of you. They're terrified Dave Jones: to laugh at things in front of other people. Adam Curry: Oh, that's horrible. Yes. You can't do that. Like they don't understand Dave Jones: that. Like, jokes about culture. cultural things are not the same thing as being mean. No, like, no. So we go to India, we go to the Indian restaurant. Oh, Adam Curry: and did you go a nice data your head how you doing? No, I did not say that. Okay, that was that will be me.

1:25 Dave Jones: There was a picture. Let me see. Let me send you this picture. So when we get home, okay. Picture out. There's a picture on the wall. Yes. Adam Curry: You took a picture of the picture on the wall. You did know I found Dave Jones: it on the internet when I got home because I didn't know that this was okay. Let me see. Okay, so here's this. Here's this link. Adam Curry: Something. Okay. Yeah, this looks like some important dude. It does. Yeah, it looks like looks like Indian Santa Claus. Is that because we are the same Dave Jones. I'm certainly. So putting this in the show notes.

2:10 Dave Jones: At the Indian restaurant in the first thing I said, I was like, Who is that? Is that Indian Santa Claus. Adam Curry: Your kids were mortified. My daughter Dave Jones: was like, Dad, she's looking around like she just bought drugs. And I was like, awesome. Like, I'm like, it's funny. Like, I'm like, okay, that's not disrespectful. Adam Curry: it to make it make Dave Jones: people laugh at American stuff all the time. You know why? Because? Adam Curry: Exactly. We're ridiculous. Oh, man, that is so that's too much. Yes. I totally get that. I see it right away.

2:55 Yes. Indian Santa Claus. Yeah. Dave Jones: This is a very important guy. Oh, yeah. No Adam Curry: doubt. Well, that's as Sam said that he can. He can tell us we'll put it in the show notes. Ladies and gentlemen. This is your podcasting. 2.0 board meeting after dark. That's right. Welcome to the to the lounge where we discuss everything going on with podcasting. How're you doing? Mr. Jones? Can I pour you a martini? Dave Jones: Yes. Better. You have a cigar. You Adam Curry: know, I gave up the smoking. Right? Yeah, you Dave Jones: get a new grill. You don't want to tarnish it?

3:35 Adam Curry: Do not not and you know what? I am good with my lungs. I think I polluted them for about 45 of the 59 years that I've been on this earth. I'm pretty good. Now I'm just going for the liver. I'm going to Dave Jones: see we can damage the moving target. You've moved targets down to the liver. Yes. Adam Curry: But I can understand that. You know, if if you and I were truly in this in this lounge, and you know, I think I'd probably want a martini and I think I just might even just to hold it. I might want a cigarette you know, just like they just hold it. There's this great documentary about Frank Sinatra on Netflix. What's it called? Give it to Sinatra?

4:19 Dave Jones: It's no creative name. Adam Curry: It's it's mainly about his life in Palm Springs. And, and what I mean for the time, right, it's no longer that time. But one of the awesome kind of life that must have been hanging out with his boys, you know, going out every night to a different restaurant. Dave Jones: Yeah, the Rat Adam Curry: Pack the well no, no, he Well, The Rat Pack was the Vegas thing but this was just his guys okay. And he would read the Palm Springs newspaper every morning and anyone who seemed in trouble you call up his lawyers had send them money. Dave Jones: Well, I just love to be that guy. Oh, yeah. What a stood. Yeah, Adam Curry: yeah, but you wouldn't tell anybody It only found out about this way after his death.

5:03 Dave Jones: Oh, so he's the Walmart. He's the Walmart is yes. Secret Secret Santa? Adam Curry: Yes. From India? Yes. And I want it since we're here in the lounge. I just wanted to say Dave Jones. Thank you for all that you do with podcasting? 2.0 Thank you for all the things that you do. You are not praised enough. I would have to say your habit dancing girl. Dave Jones: Thank you, Nan pray I'm praised. Plenty and too much. No, Adam Curry: not enough. No, I don't think so. I don't think I was walking with Phoebe and like, come on. We gotta get you gotta go. You gotta poop before the show. And you're thinking, you know? And I think maybe it's because you weren't feeling well. How are you feeling now, by the way?

5:48 Dave Jones: Oh, I'm great. I'm like, Adam Curry: You're not coughing. Okay. Dave Jones: This cough is this is one of those calls where it calls for I can tell as it carves, like, that's a plural. Whatever that is. Yes. That you can just tell it's going to be around for a month. Yeah, it's Oh, Adam Curry: I hate those. Yeah, those suck Dave Jones: it up, get rid of it's just like this just niggles at, you know, I Adam Curry: think it's the older I get, I just the more I look at fatality or mortality, I should say, I just look at it. And I think, dude, I want to be doing this for a long time with you. I really do. I wanted to have to do less responsibility, you know, the Fed defying the index is a great mission that we're on. Now, Dave Jones: which I have, which I have, I have things to reveal.

6:38 Adam Curry: Let's Why don't we why don't we start with that? Because that's, so people have to understand, although we've never really discussed it, I think per se as a as a mission is become an an almost an unspoken mission that you and I agree on, just in our soul, is you know, we need to eliminate ourselves. The index has to eventually be eliminated into something that makes this that everything just works without relying on us. And when I say us, I mean the index, because of course without us it all falls apart. But but the index so yeah, so that's the term I'm using feta fie feta. fIying. The index i Dave Jones: like that term. Yeah, Adam Curry: that's a good term. Yeah, I wonder if it's is an actual verb.

7:29 Dave Jones: It is now that sounds as you can silicon Silicon Valley can turn anything into it, but just take just take out Adam Curry: the edge take out the vowels. Yeah, for different for the finger. For the fingers finishing the Dave Jones: so the ES the eye. And also this is going to take years. I mean, that's just it's clear that because it's so hard, you know, Adam Curry: no, that's not true. If you just use hive it'll be working tomorrow you know that? Dave Jones: Yes, that's true. We haven't had our call with no Adam Curry: we haven't we have we have to because he's gonna show us how to do it. Yeah, right.

8:11 Dave Jones: Yeah, that's gonna it's gonna take a long time. So this is like it's I've honestly see this project now as the as the life that this life mission to to fortify the the index so that so that podcasting and its data is just this big, amorphous decentralized fat a fat blob, feta FIDE blob. Nice, yes. Verified blog. Adam Curry: It's kind of something we some people want to be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. We want to feticide blob, you Dave Jones: get no recognition for that. Like, that's not you're not in any Hall of Fame's for that. That's just the thing you do and then you die. Adam Curry: Yeah, yes. Yeah, correct. You Dave Jones: have fun doing it?

8:53 Adam Curry: Yeah. Oh, have lots of fun. That's the whole point. Dave Jones: So what I've been what I've been working on this week. Do you want to see it? Adam Curry: Oh, you Oh, you wait me you have something you have show until you have your link. Do you have a PowerPoint for the boardroom? Widgets. Okay. Oh, all right. What are you gonna give me here? Dave Jones: Well, okay, like, let me let me find a podcast real quick. What? Let's see, what can we do podcasts? Let's do club random because we mentioned as Bill Maher's. Okay, podcast because I had been listening to that a lot as it gets you Adam Curry: a lot out of it. HBO show and I'll tell you that.

9:34 Dave Jones: Yeah, his podcast is actually really good. Adam Curry: Because he has all kinds of cool people on from all across the spectrum. Dave Jones: And he argued, he had Neil deGrasse Tyson. He just heard that. Adam Curry: And in that case, the video was kind of fun just to watch. Neil deGrasse Tyson get all uncomfortable. It's pretty funny to watch that. Dave Jones: He was he was like, at one point he sold him he's like You're ridiculous. Adam Curry: Pretty much Dave Jones: yeah let's see okay so pick podcasting index slash social no agenda social any any Mastodon instance you have okay I have one podcast index dot social in the search like you're going to search for somebody to follow type in 5195196349634 Adam Curry: That would be the podcast index ID for Dave Jones: club random with Bill Maher okay 99636340 At okay at AP AP dot podcast index.org Adam Curry: Wow this is sexy Dave Jones: AP obviously standing for activity book.

10:47 Adam Curry: Whoa, Dave Jones: follow get home What Adam Curry: is this? What is this sexy stuff? All right 40 posts Dave Jones: but we got a lot to talk about here with this Adam Curry: I have to browse more on the original profile though. Yeah. Which takes me which takes me to the okay Dave Jones: a bunch of JSON yep Adam Curry: I'm still I'm still amazed by what I just saw. So I'm basically I'm seeing a profile called Club random with Bill Bill Maher it has the app that 5199 64 At apt a pocket podcast index.org It has the show description Bill Maher rewrites the rules of podcasting the way it did in the television in the series of one up truncated. It's truncated and it says 40 posts and says bra Okay, so clearly something sexy has happened in here.

11:42 Dave Jones: Okay, so what there is now there is now a server running at a P dot podcast index.org another server it's actually repurposed so it was with his not add to our to our monthly bills. Okay, I Adam Curry: approve all these things immediately, you know, improve on whatever you want to do. Dave Jones: The Alright, so this is an activity. I'm writing an activity pub server. Brit bridge, so this is going to Adam Curry: bridge Yes, yes, the Dave Jones: index to activity, man. And so this is Adam Curry: the next alpha the next step is bridging pod ping to this north that down the line? Well, Dave Jones: we'll we'll Britt eventually bridge everything's we'll put the index everywhere that people are man. So but on but on the back end, pod ping will also be into blood p2p. So that'll be it'll be in a DHT space. We're, you know, there's this is sort of the front end bridge, that'll be the back end.

12:56 Adam Curry: The back end is the blob that we don't really have to know about. We just see the front end front end interfaces Dave Jones: doing his job yet, right. Wow. That Okay, so the, the, the service, what I started with was how do you know how do you write the most like minimal activity pub server possible? Adam Curry: Oh, I do that in rust? Dave Jones: Yes, that's exactly how did you know Adam Curry: I'm putting two and two together day. Dave Jones: So this, this, this server I've learned a whole lot about activity pub this week. One thing I learned is that all the frustrations of people that talk about activity pub being too tied in like the the activity pub people that are frustrated with Mastodon, that is a that is a real thing. And I now fully understand it. That's a valid complaint. Okay, it is very valid. Yes. Because what Mastodon Mastodon does its own thing, and it's loosely compliant with activity. But in it's not in what it doesn't do things in the ways that make sense. So you don't there's a lot of little gotchas. But so here, here's what's happening when you search in this will help people understand activity, but because it's actually not as

14:28 complicated as it sounds. And under the covers is pretty, it's a pretty easy thing. So when you quit when you just searched what what Matt, what Mastodon does, is it immediately sends a web finger query. So web this this web finger query is web Adam Curry: finger. Sorry, it Dave Jones: sing it plays that plays that jingle Yes. Sends a get request. After it's finished, it sends a GET request to the to API dot podcast index.org/dot well known slash web finger the end with the with a resource of 5199634. That's the parameters. You're right, right Adam Curry: and there and then it then it says, Hello mailbox what you got? Yeah.

15:27 Dave Jones: And it's like, okay, what what it's resolving that is trying to resolve that to some actual data about this account. And then at that, we're at that web finger address. There's a JSON document that lists a bunch of URLs, one of which is what's called inactivity pub speak, the actor. So the so the actor in this instance, is 5199634, at AP dot podcast, index.org. And all the act all an actor is, is just a JSON document describing specifically LD JSON that describes or JSON LD describes, in detail, just Adam Curry: got all the stuff here, we've got followers following features. It's got all that stuff in there.

16:21 Dave Jones: Right. And so the so that's, so that's what happens next. So it looks up that does the web finger gets the URL for the actors document it and then and then calls it to get details about the profile for some reason Mastodon calls with finger again, I don't know why. I still haven't figured that part out. I don't know what it's doing under the covers. But then we wouldn't Adam Curry: have a public key here to authenticate that it's the real deal. Dave Jones: Yes. So activity pub or I don't know that it's required in the spec but Mastodon for certainly requires that did Yes, signing, right that the requests are signed, got Adam Curry: a podcast, good here, all kinds of groovy stuff.

17:11 Dave Jones: So then, next thing it does is when it gets that actor document, the actor lists out a bunch of URLs, one of which are is your inbox URL, right, your outbox URL? The Fall, your feature lowers endpoint and the featured endpoint so you're so the featured endpoint is what are your your pinned posts. So if you call the featured endpoint you're gonna get back a list of pinned posts for that account. If you call the the outbox you're going to get a list a list of like a page or five list of all the posts that that actor has has posted all the notes that they share to ensure followers as a list of all the followers blah blah blah. So which by Adam Curry: itself would be startling and amazing in podcasting to see who else is following just saying Dave Jones: so right up front you cannot follow this account yet. Right? You can click follow and your server will think as you're following it but nothing is actually happening right right in the read the reason for that is inactivity pub world and specifically in Mastodon this made me rephrase that inactivity post world things are posted to inboxes that's how people get

18:43 things Yeah, Adam Curry: so if you're following then you get that post to your inbox right so Dave Jones: if you follow when you click the Follow button and Mastodon to follow club random 5199634 It's what it should do is send a signed request to the 5199634 inbox URL on on AP dot podcast index.org with an action of follow and then apt up I guess index.org should respond and say accepted that's what should happen for some reason Mastodon is not doing that Adam Curry: right I even see Council follow because I would presume that there has to be some handshake here after I follow it has to say yes, you're following me so it's giving I just refresh the page to see if it had an extra follow or does not but it says cancel follow so that means that my activity pub account is waiting for some confirmation I guess.

19:50 Dave Jones: Right it's waiting for a confirmation but it's but it's never gonna get one because it's not sending it and I don't know why. Right. So they there's a lot of things. Why not sure a white man Well it's Bill Maher's. So there's a lot there's a lot of things that there's a lot of questions I still have. Because this this, it took me about a week to get to this point. Adam Curry: Wow, while you were sick even that's amazing Dave Jones: of having sort of the framework necessary to take step two. So here's the here's the things that I'm still bothered by that I don't have answers to. And I think in Allah and some of this, I found out that mass these are Mastodon related issues. So. So here if the outbox URL, if you if you click on that or go to that, you get a list of all of the of all the posts, which should which are episodes. Now, let me see if I can actually let me see if I can pull that Adam Curry: up. I can I can go right now go to let's see. Oh, Dave Jones: here it is. Eric peepee. actually posted it come he posted it in the chat.

21:11 Adam Curry: Okay, is it? Oh, yeah, yeah, boom, there it is. Dave Jones: Yeah. Okay. So these are, these are episodes. Okay, so that part works. Well, okay. And so what is happening is you hit the outbox URL 45199634 on the AP dot podcast, index.org server. It makes an API call in the background to get all the list of all the episodes and returns all the episodes as if they were Mastodon, or excuse me activity pub posts. That part works. But what you would think would happen is that when you search for that podcast, and it shows you his profile of the Bill Maher show that you see all the posts, see all the posts there, right, the mastodon doesn't do that. Okay. Now Don does not read the outbox and show you the old posts.

22:04 Adam Curry: Now, how is this different from? Because this is so we're still hitting our server? Dave Jones: Yes, yes. For now. Okay. Yes. Adam Curry: How does this fit in FY Dave Jones: because it makes the it fed if edifies it by with this, this is this activity pub server software. The repos private right now because it's got keys and stuff in it. And I was strip all those out. I'm going to put make it public. Oh, and then then fetishize is then anybody? You we because there could be 10 of these. Right? Adam Curry: Right. Right. And anyone anyone can start what up? Yeah, I got it. I got it. Right. In fact, there should be 100 up.

22:47 Yeah, Dave Jones: sure. Right. And so you would just, we can load you know, we can load balance it or through Cloudflare and give it all a DNS round robin, who knows how we're going to do it. But we'll figure that part out later. So Mastodon does not show the outbox. Of of old posts, which irritates the snot out of you know, I understand. That's it. So that's an issue. Also Mastadon caches profiles of show. So if I search for a show, now, like you just did with this one. It's not it seems to be just stuck. It's static until something else happens. I don't know how it doesn't seem to refresh in on any sort of timeframe. Like so if something changes, like, I don't know how to make that, that update? Maybe that change it, maybe maybe it starts updating when it starts getting inbox notifications? I don't know. We hadn't got there yet. In order for the following to work, so that you can follow the show, we're going to need a database.

24:04 Adam Curry: Yes. Well, that's that's the next part. Yeah. Yeah. So Dave Jones: we were going to need a SQLite database in this thing, so that when follow requests come in, we can note who it is. And then in the database, and which shows they follow. Adam Curry: So you're talking about a feta FIDE blob that includes the activity pub server and a SQL database hanging off of it. That's a Docker, Docker. Well, you Dave Jones: know what this is, this is just this is how the same controller Adam Curry: is what it is. Dave Jones: Not it? No, this is not this is free to controller to point to foreigners. Yes. This is this is the helipad framework.

24:50 Adam Curry: There you go. Yeah, I got you. Dave Jones: I got you. It's literally the same code just reengineered to be an activity post server is SQLite database. It's literally the same framework. I love it. We've already got all right stuff there. And I'm Adam Curry: already deployed. So we just upgrade my helipad and and add those bits to it. Yeah. Dave Jones: Yeah, you just turn your helipad into an activity. pubs are just Adam Curry: fine. I'm good for it. I got five gigabits per second, I'm good. Dave Jones: So there's, so there's that. So we're going to need a database next. So we can keep track of all the follows. And here's, here's, here's a big one that I did a need. I'm saying all this out. So people hear you and help you and help me Yes, I need information. If anybody knows why any of this stuff necessarily doesn't work, and also advice, because right now you're searching with podcast index IDs, because they're easy. Maybe they should maybe we shouldn't be tying these to podcasts indexed IDs, maybe they should be tied to Google. It's feed URLs or some, like, I don't know how to address these in a way that's best information, man, new shit has come to light information. You know, I don't know. I'm gonna do it's are long and complicated and hard to get hard to type. You know, somebody is going to be searching for something that's, I don't know, this, this. That is something that I think I need people to think about and have suggestions

26:21 for. Adam Curry: This is a great start, though. I'm excited just by seeing this part. Yeah, Dave Jones: I get this far. And I'm like, okay, all right, stop. Let's discuss publicly and come up with some things before I get too far down a path that we're gonna have to unroll, you know, Adam Curry: right. Well, while we're on that, then all right. When it comes to Mastodon as specifically podcast, index dot social, I would like to make a public appeal. Can we not start threads that are DMS. There's too much of that going on. People start with red tag a whole bunch of people, and it's only visible to those people. And here's why I don't like it.

27:04 One is rude. Because exclusionary, it's like, okay, we're in a secret club, we're discussing this in the back room. Don't like it, too. When you invite someone into that thread, they can't see the rest of the posts. So if you're tagged in this, you get no context. It doesn't work. There's no reason we need to be doing I really, honestly, this happens on Norwegian the social.com as well, I despise it. That you know, send me an email if it's an any and even it's back channeling I don't like back channeling. We have this this. We've put this in place so that everybody can contribute. We don't do it in the open. Other people can't see it. You're excluding people. You may be excluding someone with the answer.

27:50 Dave Jones: to true, very true. Yes. So I totally, totally agree a second this okay. Past Adam Curry: emotion, emotion emotion is is passed. Yeah. It's just like, let's not do that. Let's let's not do that. I don't like I don't like back channels. This is where podcasting went wrong. 10 to 13 years ago, back channels, Slack channels, they're still out there. I know, they're out there. Veteran Vitus to it. I don't lose not mean, I don't know if you've been invited to any slack channel. Oh, no, Dave Jones: I have not thank God, I don't want to be in any of that stuff, Adam Curry: you know, and then, and then stuff starts to happen. And then people don't know. And then when you know, then we're in a bind. So it's not I've Dave Jones: got way too many ways today. To get my attention already. I need fewer not more.

28:36 Adam Curry: Exactly. In public is great. Public is good at this. That's the way it Dave Jones: should be. Open it code should be open source and should so should. Adam Curry: Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Dave Jones: It's Yes. You know, a lot of people are saying good. I'm totally fine with that, that, that, you know, we gotta figure out a way we got to figure out if that's easy enough for this to be usable. So Well, let's Adam Curry: talk about guid for a second because that was one of the long threads. I don't know if that was a private thread or not. But people like I love Alex gates. He's like me, it's like I'm going to reply to you and I'm making it now public. That'd be I'm making it not private boom public. Okay. Everyone's like, what what is what I don't know, what's the context of this? So there's a lot of there's a couple of things that I have my list that have been going I don't even know where it's a private threat or not, from now on everything is going to be public goods. There's a question about this goods in general goods as a centralized system. That would and I think we're answering this maybe some of this now with do we feta fie good? lookups do we need lots of good lookups I believe in Gu IDs, I think it's the right way to go so that we don't have to rely on me up. So when something changes, you know, to me, it's like DNS a good is like DNS. Write up, you know, I can have curry.com And I can hook that up to any server, I want to I can change it at a whim and go it should be essentially the same

30:08 thing except the GUID brings in a whole bunch of other goodness, good goodness. Do we have a concept for persons? Because this is part of the conversation is person gooeys for persons or what do we do? Yeah. Well, I Dave Jones: want to, I want to talk about that to Adam Curry: the where are we? Dave Jones: Are we done with activity? Pub? Adam Curry: Well, I think it falls into it, doesn't it? As the as you as you wish. Yeah. Yeah. What I heard was, somebody Dave Jones: did come back to the let's, let's come back to the activity. But we'll talk about goo goo, it's in people's. Yeah, this conversation like, this has been necessary for a while that, that we need some way to. Alright, the person tag allows you to define all the characteristics of the person.

31:05 But it doesn't have a way to sort of like unique globally, uniquely identify that. Your specific you're specifying that information in every single podcast. And episode, you're not. There's no central repository for, you know, if I'm if I'm Adam curry, and I'm wanting to put myself into this thing. How does How do we know that this this data query over here is the same one as the one over there? Brian? Yeah, I think that some sort of Gu ID makes sense for all of these things. Like, it also makes sense for these this notion of channels. Adam Curry: Yes. Which is also on my list. Yes. Yeah. Do you want a handy one to do all this in one go?

31:48 Dave Jones: Well, I think it's all the same. Yeah. It? Adam Curry: I think I think you're right, yeah. Dave Jones: So the thing with podcast goo is, is they're defined in the feed, because the feed is the source of truth, payment for itself. You know, the feed the feed defines itself, sort of, like, sort of like an actor in activity pub. It defines itself, it's got an ID in there. And literally, the ID is the URL of the page you're looking at. It's like, it's, it's, it's a atomic entity. So the same thing with with podcast, if you're gonna have you're gonna have pocket the idea here with podcast goods, if people are using us for looking at goods and translating them to feed URLs, but you don't have to Brian love Brown of London also has a feed, good resolver service. The ideal, the idea, and the future is that, you know, a people could download our database today and crank up have a good resolver service in two seconds. Right? That's what Brian did. Yes, I think his code is public. We can have as many of these as we want. It doesn't have to be us. So all you got to do is read all the feeds and look at their Gu IDs, and then you got a database. Yes. But the persons and so the let's talk about so like person Gu ID. That's a little different. That seems to need to be defined outside of it, because the feed

33:21 is not the source of truth for a person. The feeds only the source of truth for itself. Yeah. A feed can't be the source of truth for Adam curry. So there it has this, the GUID to person relationship has to be it has to be like reside elsewhere. And I mean, I think just somebody just needs to build that service. Adam Curry: Is there anything like it that exists already? Dave Jones: I mean, like, the closest thing I can think of would be something like Wikipedia, you Adam Curry: know? Yeah, but not everybody has a wiki page. And that's right is not easy to get one you get you used to be able to set up a setup page up for yourself. Yeah. So we can if you build a service, you still need a validation.

34:16 Dave Jones: You know what I mean? What do you mean by that? What do you mean validation? Adam Curry: Okay, I'm Adam curry. How do we validate that? I'm Adam curry. Dave Jones: Yes. I'm not sure that we even need a validation for that. Adam Curry: Okay. Well, go look at go look at Twitter. And look how many Adam curry fake accounts there are. And tell me we don't need a validation for it. No, Dave Jones: no, no, what I'm saying is we don't have validation for it. You can't nobody. There's no validation for anything in RSS, right. And so if we, if we, if you say you know if you say you're Adam curry and you have your profile picture and your link Adam Curry: by the way, I could see this and go ahead. Well doesn't make sense. Okay. So if I have a podcast, and I'm Adam curry part of that podcast, why can't I put something into that feed, which by definition is going to so the feed is the source of truth. And I put into that feed. This is the guy who you hear in this podcast. You know what I mean? No, no, no, don't think of following. Okay, so a podcast has people working on this podcast. This? Well, let's take this podcast, podcasting. 2.0. And in this podcast, I put two person GUID, Dave Jones and Adam curry. Okay, we are automatically associated with this podcast. And there's no one who can dispute that

35:47 because you're listening to it. This is this is our podcast, this is our feed. This is our source of truth. So in in that feed, why don't we have as a part of the channel item, two person goods. And it's Adam and Dave. And then and then that can be either a remote item or can be looked up whatever it is. But that's, that's our we just, you know, it can be whatever, whatever number it is, doesn't matter. But the source of truth. To me, this, our podcast feed is more than a source of truth than anything else for who's me. Dave Jones: You know what I mean? So your, your say, so let me, let me repeat this back to you and make sure I understand. So you're saying that, since you own the podcast, you can define yourself, and then everybody else respects that because they know that you're the feed owner? Yeah. Yes. And so then if you show up somewhere else, with that same as a person tag with that same good, it's like, well, yeah, that's that's legit.

36:46 Adam Curry: Person sounds like this. That's obviously you're 40. Okay. Yes. That idea? Dave Jones: Human validation through natural means. Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay. So, Adam Curry: when we look, I have my banking details, basically, in my feed. Here's my wallet. Send me money. Yeah, that's, that's pretty important. So isn't it just as valid as my end is lots of stuff you can validate against? Hey, I just sent you a payment. Yes, I got it. What was it? 33 sites? Okay, check. Dave Jones: Verified. Okay. Okay. So here's, here's a good question. What is the problem we're trying to solve?

37:31 Adam Curry: I think the only problem? Okay, what are we trying to solve? I don't know. I forgot. I think I think the problem was okay, so chances are the couple of things going on here. There's, there's the idea of a publisher channel that people have been talking about. It's like, okay, I'm a publisher. And I have a number of podcasts under my channel. I don't really know why I need that. But people tell me I do. So maybe I can certainly see how it works for music. How an artist wants to have a a feed or a channel or a channel, I guess with remote items. Being your albums, stuff, you've worked on things, other people stuff, you're a part of, kind of that web interlocking interlinking thing we've been talking about.

38:22 Does that make sense? Yeah. So So I think, I don't know. I don't really know if there's a problem. I think it's an enhancement that we want to add to make it easier for people to group stuff. Dave Jones: If it feels like it feels like here's, let's let's keep it let's keep it with persons for now. So that we can because that seems more we already have a tag for that. And it seems more easy Lasorda easier to get grasp. The it seems like what the apps are wanting to do. The problem that's trying to be solved here is something along the lines of show me all of the podcasts where Adam curry has appeared.

39:14 Adam Curry: Yes, that's one thing. Yes. Dave Jones: So then, in that sort of that solves your music artists issue as well. Because then you can just say show me all the podcasts where Ainsley Costello Yes. Is the you know, roast Adam Curry: right but now it's kind of freeform it can be Adam curry can be a curry Adam Clark curry. You know, anyone could enter that and if so, to have a unique identifier for that would be desirable. Dave Jones: Yeah, so yeah, that's right, Steven. So I think it is to find all the shows that same person. Yeah. I'm thinking that if you know if that's the case, you just need you need a static identifier that just stretches So, you know, the you, Adam curry is defined on the person tag in this show with Gu ID 12345678. And then on the mere mortals podcast chyron inserts a person tag for his episode interview with you. And it's also good 12345678. And we just know, across podcasting that anytime we see the GUID 12345678 That's Adam curry.

40:31 Yeah. So there's got to be. That's why. That's why I said earlier, I think it just feels like somebody needs to just build that service. Somebody needs to build a service that says, where you can just you could just go, like, read put in time, I can just envision a simplistic thing where you just say, okay, Adam, Adam curry, here's my, here's my avatar, here's a link to my bio, click, it gives you back a Gu ID. And then that becomes your first step, because you stick that in your person tag. And now you're also registered in this like database. Like there's this centralized database that's open source that everybody has access to, Adam Curry: which we can later identify? Yes.

41:19 Dave Jones: Like, you know, it's just like, it just, it doesn't seem to have it, I can see this sort of central place that people go to, for create these identities. I mean, hell, it can even give you like a, you know, PGP key or a nostril key or whatever it wasn't, Adam Curry: I wasn't going to try it on the N word, but Dave Jones: but it's just like he could generate those things for me, right? Well, Adam Curry: how about this? This is I'm just going off the wall here. Isn't that what a DNS domain name is? Dave Jones: Yeah. What? A unique identifier? You me. Yeah. Adam Curry: My identifier is curry.com. And here's here's a thing in my TX T field. Record.

42:08 Dave Jones: Oh, you mean for vote for proof of a possible? Adam Curry: Too much like too much. I took it too far. Well, Dave Jones: see, this is like the Nippo. Five and all this good. Like, yeah, Adam Curry: I'm not I'm not I'm not that interested in that in the validation part is less interesting than just having it. You see, I Dave Jones: think, yeah, I agree. That's, that's where I'm at. I'm just not sure you have to be validated. Like, it's because you're valid. Like you said, the validation is the fact that that's in the field, put your feet that you own, right. And so like if Bill Maher has an identity, a Gu ID of eight, six, you know, ACM 654321. In his feed, it's like, well, that's him. That's his news feed. Right, right. And then everybody else that uses that they're referencing him like you have this random Bill Maher that has some crazy good that no, but that doesn't exist anywhere else except this one instance. You can ignore that because that's bogus. Like it just it feels like it's easy to ignore the fake ones because there's going to be so many instances of the right one being used.

43:23 Adam Curry: And right now, we're only talking about a person good as it relates to people who are creators. Because if you're a guest and you don't have a podcast, then you don't have a source of truth. You're basically not real real person, Dave Jones: you know what I mean? But you're basically you're basically Neil deGrasse Tyson Adam Curry: I think we should keep it does I like this I'd like this to me is let's keep it simple because I can already see the 5000 posts thread on this which I'm not that interested in. Dave Jones: With private with private mentions. Yes. Adam Curry: Yeah. But just you know, like well, we have this and we have to have that we could talk about this for a long long time. But I liked the idea of just having a in your feed.

44:09 I'm Adam curry and what is the actual What is the need to take a look what is the what are the fields what are the tags that we have right now? Dave Jones: In the namespace Adam Curry: now Yeah, well now just in RSS by itself for the in the feed so in the feed we have Dave Jones: the like author and stuff Yeah. What Adam Curry: is the what is the actual webmaster webmaster? Oh, Dave Jones: that's an old school. Adam Curry: It's very old school. Says Managing Editor Wow, there's all this what kind of bullcrap is all this?

44:52 Dave Jones: Managing Editor forget about Yeah, we should just because Dave wonder wanted it to be, you know, one of the New York Times New York. Yes. Adam Curry: So we should we should add a tag for this. Dave Jones: No? Yeah. Yeah, that Adam Curry: person person. Good. So anyway, so right now we have podcast person, right? And maybe we just add a type equals in this case, how about that? So we don't have to go too crazy but podcast person. And and here we have URL image and then group role but that's part of the text harmony taxonomy. And then we just need a GUID equals.

45:36 Dave Jones: Is that simple? Yeah, yeah, I'm looking at sort of the conversation in the chat. And there's, there's a lot of people talking about with finger and that kind of thing. That's an interesting idea. Because you could, if you wanted to bring in a validation piece, what you could do is something like, what you could reference like your activity pub account. Because, you know, like, you could go and say, like your actor, your actor ID URL. You can say, this is me. This is me, this is my Gu ID, my Gu ID is, you know, we're saying we're using the term GUID. And we're thinking about these long strings of numbers separated by dashes. But it doesn't necessarily have to be that I mean, in activity pub, your identity is not a Gu ID it is a URL. Right? Right. Right. And so if, if you have, if those identities were URLs, that's fine, then you could have, you could also have the ability to then sign with your, with your public key, I mean, with your private key, and they could be validated with the public key. So it feels like other people could say, Okay, you put your actor ID in there, your actor URL, it's gonna have your public key in it, and you can do validation that and then the, these, in these end these, these apps, if they choose to, can also validate you if they want

47:09 to go that extra step. How Adam Curry: do we get the podcast standards group to accept this? Dave Jones: Begging we beg we beg it is it? I think, I mean, Adam Curry: you know, what's a great what? A great unique identifier, an email address. Let's put that that's exactly what it was. That was that was the identifier. And we had to take it out. Because a cast was spamming everybody. Good work, everybody. Good work. Dave Jones: Yep. And you know, who, and people were bringing up pod chaser being this, they cast bought them to Adam Curry: bastards? That was literally the perfect identifier. Because you had email someone you can, you know, it's like it was perfect. No, we had to get rid of that. I think I think we just force it to go back.

48:05 Dave Jones: Now, and everything's just email addresses, again, all the way down. Adam Curry: It's perfect. And we're all the way back to the podcast cars, right? We're all the way back to square one. It was so perfect. It's exactly what you want. How do you identify someone by the email address is perfect. And then we'll get spam. Dave Jones: I think the thing I think if we, if we can figure out some way to be able to reference an activity public count. I think that's a pretty I think that's pretty strong. Adam Curry: Yeah, I'm good with that. Yeah, that's, that's pretty cool. Because you can take that with you from server to server. Dave Jones: Yeah. Yeah. And then like, I'm actually getting pretty high on that.

48:51 Adam Curry: Oh, hold on a second. Here we go. Ladies and gentlemen. All right. How are you feeling now? Is that when finger making you feel good? Dave Jones: You just cruised into some hot namespace talk without playing the jingle or you get a yellow card. Adam Curry: Some so sorry. Dave Jones: I think that would work. Adam Curry: I'm all Yeah. Okay. I'm good with that. Dave Jones: open discussion for people to do give ideas. Yeah. Yes. Fire away. Fire away. Well, there will be plenty. Adam Curry: Yeah, and from that, I think flows. Everything else can kind of flow. But it really comes down to and it's it's wonderful watching Dolby das and Barry. How they put things together for the artists for music podcasts. Because they're making it they're making assumptions to hear they're just they're just doing stuff and I really love looking I haven't looked at pod home.fm But I want to go through both the the podcasts, path and the music path. But there's a lot of interesting stuff happening this year if you've been following this is our C code. Discussion.

50:13 Dave Jones: I 's or I don't know, I don't know, this is news to me. Well, Adam Curry: believe it or not, there's a GUID for recordings. It's the internet is RC international standard recording code, which enables an ISP like an ISP completely, which enables sound recordings and music videos to be uniquely and permanently identified is RC helps to avoid ambiguity among recordings and simplifies the management of rights when recordings are used across different formats. So this is an open an open database, I believe it has an API, and anybody can submit their recording, I believe I have not done any of this work myself. And the idea is that you can register and so it's not the song. It's not the copyright is the actual recording itself. So if you add an AI SRC code into your ID, that will be that will be a unique identifier. That actually would be a that would be a great unique identifier. For that's a good it's a good I don't care what you call it. It's a good right there. You don't need anything else. That's a good done. That number is a good of course, if you're at pod fans, it's already a part of the interface.

51:30 Dave Jones: As of today, yes, as Adam Curry: of today, it's you can already go and edit your RSS feed at pod fans, and make whatever you want to make. So I think these are all great ideas. I don't know if ASRC code has to be a separate tag or if it can just be a GUID. The, to me it feels like that's a good for identifying a unique recording. Dave Jones: So is there a hash that goes with it? I mean, like does it does it take the recording and somehow hash it? Adam Curry: The structure of ice SRC comprises 12 alphanumeric characters, which you'll be presented with the four character prefix is RC when displayed in printed form? So I think they you you register and it sends you back a code Dave Jones: see the code I don't know what that code really is. I was Adam Curry: like is RCA dash six Q seven dash two Oh dash oh four seven is okay i SRC code identifier, the prefix code five character alphanumeric code allocated by the I SRC agency.

52:50 And then you get the year of reference. That's the last two digits of the year, followed by the five digit unique code assigned by the registrant. Dave Jones: Brother this is like this is like how you figured out if your tires are old. You read the code and you Adam Curry: change toys and 12 year my beer was born on November 1. There you go. Right. Okay. Well, it's, it's something that Julie Costello brought up and Julie Costello is really interesting. She'll send me an email said, hey, you know, this might be off the wall. But we had a question about an artist who wonder if you could put an is our C code into RSS to track a song has been uploaded. And I go that's interesting. And then I find out that she's talked to Sir Spencer and Abel Kirby.

53:41 She's talked to everybody about she's building consensus in her own little back channel, which is funny by itself. Yes, you're getting back channel now. Oh, yeah. And before you know it, like Oh, Dobby, Das has already put it in. Okay, and now it's in pot fans. It's not really a tag yet, but okay. So this one's got it in his TLV. So there there is prior art already, but it's something that we need to look at. And I would suggest, if somebody wants that as a tag, then put it in the GitHub but let's let's do these let's put let's put proposals in if you got something that you liked, that's working make it a proposal. Or Or yeah, what is it discussion so it can become so it can become a what's the next What's up from proposal?

54:30 Dave Jones: Attaboy good job as Dan has been very neglectful, kind of purposely about the namespace repository because like, you know, we're not that far removed from from from the last phase and and trying to get some I'm trying to get some some code written do Yeah. And as to Matt, I can't have split attention in a million places. So the, at some, at some point, I'm going to finish, I'm gonna get this code to a good point. And then just like, flip back, probably towards the end of this month, just flip back to like, full time for a couple of weeks namespace stuff to get caught up on and get things cleaned up on that. So yeah, proposals for sure. And if there's no post commentary proposed, yeah. So I was looking for, yes, there's no commentary from me Don't don't think it's been, you know, it's dad or something. It's just that we'll we'll get there in a little while ago, Adam Curry: I heard I heard, I was doing the show prep today, listening to podcast, weekly review, pod, Newsweek, Newsweek, and an hour. And James Cridland said, we should probably remove some tags from the namespace that are just not being used.

55:54 I'm kind of against that. I think if we've, if we've approved something for the namespace, even if it's not used, it should just be there. Because there's stuff that that I've seen in namespaces that was not used, for instance, to the media, RSS, for example. Now, it didn't go anywhere. But man, it got a lot of attention. Because, you know, it's like, oh, there's a lot of good stuff in here. That even though no one's really using it could be used for something else. I feel like, once we've approved something to go into the namespace, it may be a next generation that says, Oh, look at this, they because it also shows an idea. Even if it's not picked up. Now, sometimes things get picked up, like pod roll, I think is an excellent example. Actually. You know, it lingered for a year at least.

56:39 And then you know, all of a sudden, it gets picked up. And then it gets implemented. So I'm not I don't think we should be cleaning stuff up or removing it. Dave Jones: 1,000% No, I agree with Adam Curry: you. Yeah. It's like no, just even if I agree, 1,000% Dave Jones: No, I don't think anything should be to come. He can just if it's gonna die, it'll just die. I mean, it doesn't have to be it. I mean, look at activity pub. It took 10 years for anybody to do much of anything with that spec. Adam Curry: That's right. It was good. NEW SOCIAL wasn't it wasn't that's what it was initially. Yeah. Dave Jones: And then and then Mastodon picked it up and ran with ran with it. And now it's a huge deal. I mean, it Live it really did languish for many, many years before anybody do anything with it. So like, like alternative closure, very little used hardly at all. But the idea is so solid and so sound that one of these days, I host may see it and be like, You know what? That is? We need to do this because we have a specific use case. Yes, pod fans in depth.

57:53 Adam Curry: We have a use case with POD fans. We need to start doing that right away. Yeah, Dave Jones: like you might be the right. The right use meats the right time. Adam Curry: That exactly it just is just the timing of stuff. Absolutely. That's the way Dave Jones: and once you put something in you cannot take it back out. Right, you really can't without break because it might break some people out there using it and also now they're out of spec. I disagree with that. I also don't think that I think the podcast Android project is doing a fine job. I wish they updated anything wrong. Adam Curry: I keep looking at the GitHub in the end you know, they I don't I don't see pod rolling their GitHub. This is what I don't understand. I Dave Jones: think their job is to move at glacial speed. Yes, our job is to move at the speed at the speed of you know scissors atomic broccoli, broccoli and the bed there their job is to move very very very slow and they're doing their job if I don't if they move fast things are going to get messed up Adam Curry: I agree Dave Jones: that they don't know that moving fast is a is a is a liability for a group like that whereas it's a feature for us so yeah, not I don't have any problem with the way they went the way they went the way they roll. Yes they didn't good couple other Adam Curry: things that came up and this it's interesting to see

59:26 this okay categories is a is a is a big hot button. And it's really a hot button for one person. So Libra because he does show a music podcast about which is thrash metal music and he can't find thrash metal music. Now, so the idea was, we were what we discussed last we touched on the so this is not the same as medium equals type. This medium type equals this is categories and we you and I discussed in the previous board meeting and everyone was here. They all heard it They were sitting on the beanbags. Are you trying to prove this prove the proof I prove everyone was here knows everybody knows it. Yeah, everyone knows it. That we talked about freeform categories.

1:00:14 Dave Jones: We did, yes. Now this vouch for this. So Adam Curry: there seems to be some some, this is where you have. Okay, so apple won't accept that. And what that means? I don't know. I don't know what that is. Well, it's like, well, Apple categories don't work that way. So I'm not quite sure. I don't know. I don't know what that means. I just feel pushed back about, there's people I'm in favor of it. I'm like, Okay, there's couple things I'm in favor of tagging stuff however you want to tag it. Hashtags have worked great. Yes, there's hashtag abuse. And there's you know, and that's a separate I'll put that over here for a second because there's people me Oh, if I see hashtag abuse, that's usually something I block. I'm like, I'm not interested in what you're doing. Because you're doing you're just spamming but I personally feel hashtag free form categories are a good idea.

1:01:10 Is that something we need to codify? What do we need to do to to get that solidified? Dave Jones: That's see this. This is the same sort of discussion as person and channels and did you introduce crack open a cold one? Adam Curry: Yes. Pabst Blue Ribbon, you better believe that? PBR baby, Dave Jones: the so there's a there's a sense here in which this is all okay. Um, so I'm trying to wrap my head around this, this category of issue. Because these, this really is the same sort of thing as a person identifiers, channel identifiers. And and then we can also say, freeform categories.

1:02:11 So there's going to, there's going to exist in this in this world that we envision there's going to exist somewhere a list of these freeform categories as people use them. So that's what happens like on Twitter and Mastodon, you go to tight you start typing a free freeform hashtag in it gives you suggestions of like, this is what other people have done that are like what you've typed in, so then you usually look at it and you're like, Oh, I was about to type, you know, hashtag a Olympics 2024 But it's actually you know, 80 million people are using a Olympics 20 Adam Curry: Right, which Okay, so let me read the post that triggers us because what I am doing here is I'm just your eyes and ears on the street. I mean, the gutter. I mean, the podcast gutter laying down looking at the mud that people are slinging all over the place. You Dave Jones: get it? You're get you were in a ghillie suit?

1:03:11 Exactly. Adam Curry: Certainly, we desperately need a mechanism to signal music genres, the sooner the better. Each day more albums get added that will need to be modified after we figure it out. I know only a small percentage will go back and add genres to their feeds effectively orphaning them from futures on genre searches. I was hoping that category tag would be on the way, by the way, a private post. Dumb and then okay, so and then here is the discussion. Quote, Apple will never extend their categories. Okay, so this is where this is all backchannel stuff, this is what I despise. So much so this wasn't out in the open, so we really should just ignore it totally. But I think I understand where this is coming from. Because we're we are running at a very fast speed with music. stuff is coming in and, and as a guy who played does as a podcast filled with music, not necessarily music cast, that's the next topic. I understand, you know, it's like, okay, people just throwing stuff up. And I have to listen to everything before I can figure out what it is. Which for me is okay. I mean, there's not that much. I mean, I listen to everything new that comes out.

1:04:37 But having having categories that people can use when they when they're uploading either podcast, and I agree that I think podcasts there's more hashtags or categories that can be used for podcast descriptions, and for music. So I guess the question is, is this a tag that we declare reform. And then again, you're right with this our lookup service that sends back hints. I mean, I'm not sure what to do here, Dave, Dave Jones: this is this is this category of problem is there seems to be it, you'd need to make this work, you'd need a lookup service, right?

1:05:19 Adam Curry: We don't want to be there for all of these. We don't want to be that. Well, Dave Jones: I mean, we will always be all of these things, you know. But really, it needs to be something that is it, it needs to be something that's doable by more people than just us. And that, you know, I don't mind. So, this gets back to sort of, okay, we get front, you got front end, you get back. And so the front end of interface to podcast data. We're working on that with these things like activity pub bridge. And the API, you know, the the back end needs to be federated, I'm using that term loosely, into something that is more like IPFS. Where this data doesn't have to reside in the podcast index. It will, in will always reside there. But it's more like the podcast index is a participant in a system where everybody has this data.

1:06:37 Adam Curry: Right? So okay, so you're right. So we, in essence, we have to be at first in parallel, we're running to distribute this so everybody can be the lookup service. Dave Jones: Yes. And like I would love for the lookup service to be something like some sort of DHT distributed key value store. Paging expera. Adam Curry: Locks, paging, Spurlock new services needed. While five cleaned up. Dave Jones: It'll be done by Fridays, but Adam Curry: How about how about this? I do I do. I do. How about this? Can we back it into? Can we Okay, so we have lookup service. There's a couple we have lookup services that we're talking about. Good lookups services. Category lookup services is called a hashtag. Activity pub actually does this.

1:07:34 Yeah, if I go and look for a hashtag, I do hashtag let me see Thrash. So I'm doing thrash for thrash metal, and it's giving me some crappy options. But if I hit thrash is going to show me, thrash, thrash, metal thrash or thrash Thursday, should we not Fetta fie this first and back it into the index or, or make that a later part of the feticide index. And I'm saying it's like if, if this this is I'm seeing it here. It's on activity pub. Right now. I just I did thrash and it shows me thrash metal Thrasher thrash Thursday. These are categories that I can use, I can use them bait and has little graph tells me how many people use it in the last graph tells me how many people use it in the last two days. I mean, this is exciting. So is this something that we can then reverse into the index?

1:08:37 Dave Jones: Do you know I mean, possibly, yeah, yeah, no, I don't know where you're going. So now we're Adam Curry: going now we're going to directions, we want to take the index and put it into activity pub. And we want to take the activity pub existing categories, ie hashtags, we just call it what they are. And we can reverse engineer those back in. Or, in fact, if someone tags, their song podcasts, or audio book, whatever it is, with a certain type of hashtag, that now fortifies into the fediverse through the bridge, take it to the bridge Dave Jones: is we're getting to spread out here. This this is a Fanta like the problem that we're running into now is we're we're thinking about way too many things at once. But it's all the same thing. It is all the same thing, but they all have different credit different implementations, you know, so, but you like a person a person, a person identity is one thing.

1:09:43 A channel identity is another thing a freeform category data list is another thing. They they all have functionally different intents for us given the distribution mechanisms. So as Think? I think we're right. And I think what we're doing right now is defining the problem as defining the domain space, if you want to call it that, where we say, okay, these types of categories are going to need lookups. Yeah, that's an important conclusion to come to. Adam Curry: Right. And we just, we just discussed the person good being a web finger lookup, that's, that's activity plug in that what we did, Dave Jones: yeah, but I'm just, it's like, I'm just a teenager at web finger.

1:10:33 Adam Curry: Believe me, when I had to go to Reebok and say, Hey, you can finger my account to see what, what my profile is. They were like, what? From my dot plan from my dot plan file? Oh, I remember all this. I'm old. But But what, here's what overall, here's what I find exciting. So while we're talking about fortifying the index, there's all this stuff that Yeah, we could create an API endpoint and do all this stuff and create good lookups and create good person looks up and create category lookups. Meanwhile, it's all here. And you've created that you've created a rudimentary bridge, it's more like a rope bridge, that you know that one person at a time over the bridge. But this connection, I think, is really critical. So activity POV has critical mass. It just does. It does. It has a critical mass is beautiful, it works. It's almost a problem looking for us. In fact, it's almost like this, like noster in a way only is much further down the road. The the the solution has created a social network. But really the problem is this. We have all these problems that we need them for edifying, this, this centralized service. And all these beautiful things have been created here, which is outstanding for what we're looking to solve. Does that make sense?

1:12:03 Dave Jones: Yes. So yes, go ahead. Yeah. Well, go the nasty, nasty Eurasia video of Alex Gleason's talk. Now he's, he's the guy that created so box activity pub server client. He, he gave a talk in Australia, because he's now funded by some Noster, you know, thing, whatever. And so he's all on that bandwagon. But he does a good talk to listen to, because he talks about, about a lot of these interrupts. And he, he shows a graph on there. And it's like, you know, the number of people that are on these different services. Twitter is like, you know, a bazillion people. Activity pub, you know, is is a million, BM millions of people. And then noster is like, one, you know, a couple of dudes.

1:13:05 Adam Curry: A couple of dudes in a Bitcoin. Yeah. Dave Jones: And so, like, the graph that he showed really made it clear that you're you're right, the critical mass of activity activity Pub is you can't overlook that. Adam Curry: No, so easily the ROI. I mean, for five bucks a month, you deploy your own Mastodon instance, which, by definition is an activity pub node. Dave Jones: Yeah, and that, like, let's jump back to this to the AP dot podcast index.org. That, you know, that is going to be an open source thing that anybody can run once. And so then we can have lots of people running nodes in front of running a P nodes in front of in front of the index. until such a time when the index itself can be distributed. Then those nodes become district they become more like IPFS gateways, right. It's so that that is the ultimate goal. I mean, that's like, you know, we started off talking that at the beginning of the show, talking about how long this was going to take years.

1:14:23 It'll Adam Curry: take a while. Yeah, I'll take a while. Yeah, that's okay. Because yours because we got music to go with our work. It's no problem. I just have Benny over here, play the piano and we'll work on that feta phi and Vidya 20. Slit Benny 20 will give you some weed bag. Me done back Benny. Taco Well, this is good. So I'm excited by this because this is it's like we naturally bumping up against this problem. You know, Because the last thing we want, I know, I know you, you know me, we've been friends for forces now. 13 years for 10. Yeah. Like we don't want to, we don't want to actually do work. We're not We're not interested in running a company or anything like that this is all bad. We don't want that. We just want to make things better for the world than for ourselves, quite honestly.

1:15:26 And so this is a natural thing that we're that we're that we're, that we're hitting here. And it's a confluence of streams, it really is. The whole activity pub, which has been in our life for a long time is, is naturally flowing into all of these problems, which means podcasting. 2.0 is also maturing, these are very mature problems to have, we're talking about recording fingerprints, and we're talking about licenses and an identification of ownership. These are really great things to have as problems, and to be able, and at the same time to want to move that out to something that is more distributed than it then podcasting already is, man, that's exciting to me this like, Yeah, I'm good for another five years, whatever it takes this this is great.

1:16:17 Dave Jones: Yeah, we found out this week that we had to file some sort of tax thing and what the hell we were. You were like, Please tell me your brother in law could do this. We don't want to do like, begging my brother in law to do that. Like, this is business crap. Adam Curry: I love that he built us right away for 200 bucks. I'm like, Thanks, Greg. I'm good, man. Thank you. You should have built 300. Egypt yourself, man. We were so happy. Dave Jones: Yeah, right. Yeah. Adam Curry: What is this? This tax you talk of this? Dave Jones: Like this? Yeah. Anything to avoid real you know, real business. He crap is good in my bag.

1:16:58 Adam Curry: I mean, you know, cotton gin, we don't have payroll, there's no payroll. There was, what's it called? Like, operating? What is it called? What is that particular tax called? It's like a franchise to franchise tax. We don't owe anything. We still have to file you don't have to file. Dave Jones: Yeah, there's no, there's no payroll. Nobody gets paid. No. You Adam Curry: don't need franchise tax. And this is a million bucks a year or something like okay, well, we still got a file. You Dave Jones: say you to file and say, Hey, we don't have any notes. We get a pain. You got to pay an accountant $200 To file something that says you don't owe anything is the most American thing. Adam Curry: America. That's right, baby America taxes.

1:17:42 Dave Jones: In Alabama, they call it the business privilege tax. It's got the same thing. The privilege of doing business in Adam Curry: Alabama. Exactly. Exactly. Well, we're happy to be doing business in Texas. Yes. But yeah, that's exactly. Right. It's so right. Amen. We Dave Jones: will solve these problems. But I liked the way it's Adam Curry: going. I like this bridge. The bridge is an important piece. It feels good. It really does. It feels like Ah, okay, so now we can we reverse engineer these tags? backwards, you know, or is when we just think about it for a second. So in essence, you want to if you're if you're building your RSS feed, so it's going to be a weird crossover to how this works. But if you have your categories, your lookup should almost should be your your most it should be your local activity pub. You know, so Ivan so I think so, for instance, sovereign feeds, which I which I use, I will be logged in. And maybe instead of a my lb login, which I think it is now I'm logged in through my activity pub, and I know it's not but anyway, I'm logged in through my activity pub. And that identifies me, that automatically goes into my feed and then when I'm doing tags for my podcast, it's doing activity pub lookups on those on those hashtags. And that's what goes

1:19:13 into the feed my source of truth. Am I saying that right? Yeah, Dave Jones: can see. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, cuz cuz you, you just need a list somewhere and like that. The list can come. They'll see the list has to live somewhere. But it already lives can originate somewhere as well. That's Adam Curry: my point. It lives though. It lives so hashtag right. See if I do bull crap. Is that a hashtag? Let me say there is. No one's used it in the past few days where it's a hashtag. Dave Jones: As your graph down you gotta Yeah, hockey stick negative hockey stick. Adam Curry: Well, bull bull bullshit bullet bullet with an ITT I mean, see all I mean, there's a huge list. This lookup is instant.

1:19:57 Dave Jones: All right, here we go. So In the activity pub bridge, the podcast and index activity pub bridge can take on the elite, here's the circle of life here so you you go on your your post about post an episode, we can aggregate the hashtags that are being used to then push a list did provide a list you pick one then it goes into your episode as the genre or whatever we're gonna say this category whatever category whatever then it gets posted as a as an episode. The index picks it up and posts it right back to activity pub posted right back to activity pub now it's feeding back to the system and now it goes back into the list and then becomes re yes, you're one more your view of Adam Curry: the graph is up the graph is up and to the right yes, thrash metal Yes, exactly. Exactly. So the bridge feeds back into the system. This is cool.

1:21:03 Dave Jones: And wouldn't that be the same with activity with actor as identifiers Adam Curry: do exactly same thing look it up right there. Dave Jones: It feeds it feeds back into the system and then and then we Trent we can translate to the bridge we can translate the activity the actor URL as the identifier back into the back into the the actor ID with the with the episode. Yes, yes. So now it's attributed to this person and Adam Curry: hit the pod ping how do we how do we respond to this? Come on. Come on. Come on. It's gotta be in there. I don't know brain brain. I'm excited by this. This. I think this is a really I hope Alex gates likes it. Is he is he does he like activity pub. Oh, yeah. Sure.

1:21:57 Dave Jones: He runs his own server that little. That's, that's I've been testing against his activity pub. So bucks instance, per week does validate because I wanted to validate against something that was not Mastodon so that I can make sure that we're trying to speak as generic activitypub as possible. Yes. And so I was I was vowed I was building it to work on against his instance. Nice. Is it then I'm like, then I'll bring it over to Mastodon and see if it works there. Adam Curry: Yeah, I think there's this there's something here, Dave, this is this is I think this is a breakthrough. I'm not quite sure why I feel that way. But there's a breakthrough going on here. It Dave Jones: it just feels important. For some reason. I think it's because you like you said I think activity Pub has critical mass, you know who spotted this? Very early on? Was this sort of like this idea of integrating podcasting in with activity? pub was Benjamin Bellamy. Yes, because yeah, I suppose does that Right? Exactly.

1:22:59 Adam Curry: You're so right. He's probably jumped out and sees probably jumping up and down going. I told you this was riots. You stupid Americans. I knew it already. Socialism. Dave Jones: Yes. This is this is. This is a he spotted it. And I didn't see it at the time. And, and I think I think he's, I think you have the right idea. Absolutely. Because activity activity, pub and RSS are sort of like, you know, two Adam Curry: sides of the same coin. Yeah, they're like, Dan says 40 posts. Wow. So dynamite.

1:23:41 Dave Jones: But I do have a do still have a couple of you have a couple of issues. In that we need to figure out that okay. Adam Curry: Clearly something. Dave Jones: How to handle the key pairs. So activitypub needs assigning keys. And typically they are per user. So you know, you you have a private public private key pair. Now what Adam Curry: do you need these? What do you need these for? My help me out? What do you need? Why do we need keys? Dave Jones: So that each each user account has a public private key pair that they use to sign the requests to other activity pub servers when doing transactions. So if I if I go and subscribe, excuse me, follow you on your server, I have to sign it with my key pair to prove that is me actually doing it. Right. And so there has there has to be a signing thing.

1:24:45 You know, I don't know how to handle these keys necessarily. Should there just be one key for the whole server that everybody uses? When I say everybody I mean every podcast asked, since it's really since they're really all essentially bought accounts anyway. Or should it be that each one, as soon as it's the first time it's searched for a public key pair is created, that's creating a key pair is a is a mathematically is mathematically hard. So it's a little bit of a delay when that happens, so I don't know I need advice on that, too. Can Adam Curry: you run that by me one more time? The key the key generation key pair was just run it by me one more time. Let me see if I can grok this. Oh, I said Dave Jones: it. Oh, can you give me the so the key pair, it's pretty much just like PGP. You know, you have a public key and a private key. The private key, you're gonna sign your message to other when you send. So club brand, you're in the future, you'll be you know, you subscribe a club random Yeah.

1:25:58 Then, when the club random gets a new episode, the AP dot podcast index.org is going to send an event to your inbox. Or it really to the shared inbox on your server, right saying, saying, Here's a new post, right? That that message to your shared inbox is going to have to be signed by his by, by his accounts public, excuse me, private key, so that you can then validate it using the public key that is present, is what Adam Curry: you're saying? Actor proof. So you're saying, Do we have the index just has one, one key that signs everything? Now, you can't do that? Has to be individual keys, doesn't it? You Dave Jones: could there's no rule that says you can't. And that's what I'm wondering is this, if there should just be one public private key pair? On the index that signs everything for every one of these podcast accounts? Does that? Or if they should all be separate?

1:26:57 Adam Curry: Doesn't that come into the follow? Bit? Isn't that unique to the follow? Me I don't know. I'm just guessing. Dave Jones: Yeah, I don't know. I am open to advice from the activity. Adam Curry: I mean, quite honestly, it Is it crazy for me to think that in the future podcast apps when you follow slash subscribe to a podcast, that that would actually be an activity pub event. Dave Jones: Are you talking about when you actually subscribe to the feed? Yes. Adam Curry: Well, no one where it says very few podcast apps when you subscribe to the feed. Haha, man, I'm my brain is hurting right now. Yeah, okay. So if you take activity pub as the subscribe pubs Pub Sub mechanism, does that not solve a lot of back end stuff that individual apps are doing with their own database as their own user database? Who's following what et cetera, et cetera? Right? Does that not replace that in a way? Um, so that in future actually, you'll subscribe to a podcast you will subscribe to your follow up lets us follow. You will follow a podcast be in your app or on the mastodon server or wherever you get your mastodons and, and you

1:28:27 literally you could sign into every single podcast app with your Mastodon slash activity pub. Key credentials. Bright. Wow, think about how Trent that that just obliterated OPML Yeah, Dave Jones: pretty much yeah. Because yeah, because you've there's all your stuff right there will Adam Curry: be serious. Whoa. That Dave Jones: will conjunct said all your shows would sink to Yeah, you Adam Curry: could take your followers with you, man. It brings in cross app comments. Dave Jones: Well see that's very interesting. Obviously cross out comments is is is baked Adam Curry: in Yeah. Because Dave Jones: that's being you know, as like I said when you when you have a list of posts, the outbox is the list of posts list of episodes and the each episode is just is also has the the social interact tag data in it. Okay, devil's advocate comes along with it devil's advocate, the devil's advocate. Yeah.

1:29:40 Adam Curry: What reasons would podcast apps have to not want to do this? Dave Jones: You do the double negative. I'm confused. Adam Curry: Okay, so we so we basically are coming up with a system here. Oh, man, you could almost publish from your podcast app. Oh, my brain hurts to like Dave Jones: 930. Adam Curry: Maybe we're going too far. Maybe we're going to, Dave Jones: we need a better way to back it up. I see where you're going, though, and I like it. It's it's very far down the road, though, as I say, but I see where you're going. Yeah, I still don't know why follow the Follow button doesn't do anything on Mastodon with trend, why was it not sending me?

1:30:32 Adam Curry: Well, that's just some kind of handshake that's not completing that we'll figure that out. Dave Jones: I'm not seeing a hit. Not seeing the hit on the on the on on the AP server. But and then and then status IDs. So the unit statuses like episode statuses are episodes. Adam Curry: Yeah, this is Do you know what I mean? Yeah, but Well, it's it shows up as a post but an activity problem. Sure. It's called status. Yeah, Dave Jones: it's called a post. It's called us. Yes. Yeah. Adam Curry: Just to make it simple. Dave Jones: Yeah, right. Let's go stat, the insert these every one of these things has an ID. And I'm not sure where you would think that the Episode Episode ID within podcast index would make a perfect status, because it's just a big lump on number.

1:31:21 But then again, it's tying it to that to that to the index, which doesn't seem right, it seems like it should be tied to like the GU ID, Adam Curry: maybe maybe if we just we stick to the publishing side first, just to make it simple. To the publishing side is where the biggest problems are right now. So the publishing side, we have what is a GUID? How do we look up goods? And that's it as its publishing. It's also of course, it's also the receive side, but how do we look up goods? Okay, activity Pub has a has a way to do that, as a way to register goods as a way to authenticate goods, which can be people can be all kinds of things. How do we do categories? We have a lookup service built right into it, which requires apps, I think, on the back end. So perhaps it's that the apps would have to have a way to talk to their own activity pub. This is that what we're down to now. hosting companies creation tools, will need access to an activity problem now, Dave Jones: not initially. I mean, initially, we we can just Britt, you know, we can be the bridge. Okay. It, I think what's going to happen is this, this code, once we get it to a work working state where it's doing a lot of the things that we want it to, and it's reliable, then it's open. And I think at that

1:32:56 point, there will it'll be easy for people to look at it, see what it's doing. And because one of the goals that I have with this code is in the next phase of this is add the database, clean it up, make it open, hope I'm hoping by the end, but by this, the end of this week, this coming week, the repo will be open and everybody can just see it. At that point, I feel like more eyeballs on it will be able to show we'll be able to sort of flesh out some of these things. And say, here's what these days should look like, here's what this should be, here's what this should be. We can all just sort of like, collaborate on this.

1:33:43 But you know, and remember, ultimately, what's the goal here, like we talked about a couple episodes ago is the podcast. The bridge is going to make it where you could follow a podcast on an activity pub timeline. And then when you see when that post comes through, you get links to all the different apps on it. So you have you and I have we have the links, links to all the different podcasts. Right Adam Curry: you just click on that link click boom, it opens up the the appropriate app. Dave Jones: Yeah, you're in pot. You're in pod. You're in your Mastodon client. The post comes through, you just you know, you say okay, I'm on pod verse or I'm on podcasts guru or pod fans or whatever and you just tap it fountain and it kicks you over to your to your app like it's not meant to be a destination is meant to be a bridge, Adam Curry: a bridge literally. Just to address Eric PPS COMM And he says Who needs RSS at that point episodes are posted?

1:34:50 No, because we know that activity Pub is not not a great system for high volume polling and high volume follows So you want to just general want to just reiterate why that is? Because of the subscription? overhead? Dave Jones: Yes. The way that activity pub works, you know, is it posts? It's a push, it's a push based system is relying on on the server that creates the content to let you know that the content is there. And that that's, that's okay. That's actually that's efficient, in the sense that you don't have to poll is inefficient. In that you can, the receiver can get swamped. Yeah. Easily. And this this is what we see this all the time with Mastodon servers where all of a sudden one famous person joins and they have 10 million followers, and then every now they're getting it in their server. Could you just follow crawl? Yeah, yeah. So I think that that mean, this is just this just bridges RSS bridges back to what RSS is doing natively. We don't want to make the same mistake that Nasir made. Yeah, we're exactly replace RSS, which is x DOM.

1:36:12 Yeah. So we're not we don't want to make that mistake. We're this is basically a way to bridge RSS over into activity pub. In a way that makes sense. But the source of truth is and always will remain the RSS feed. Yes. Adam Curry: I'm just looking at the podcast index dot social, the sidekick Syo is killing it. Oh, man. If you see how many failed there are over 2 million CI Oh, yeah, that's in one month time and failed 2 million, 2 million fails. Dave Jones: Sidekick for people that don't know is the task server that runs on with Ruby on Rails that takes care of sending all that into Mastodon in the mastodon world decide cake process is sending all those outbox rules, excuse me sending all those inbox pushes. Yeah, it's Adam Curry: insane out everywhere. It's insane. It really is.

1:37:08 Dave Jones: If it was more pool, if it was more pull. To me, it would make it would be more like ours. So it would make a lot more sense. Yeah. Adam Curry: But it's not. Dave Jones: Yeah, this could be NC we have the benefit of pod thing. Adam Curry: Yes, exactly. Dave Jones: Everything is so much more efficient, because we're not going to, we're not going to send out you know, we're not going to be polling all over the place. If you get if you subscribe to a podcast to the bridge, you know, you're out you're gonna get you're gonna get one shared inbox paint hit. That's it. Adam Curry: I think this is this is a good this is I'm excited by this. I mean, I know it's still kind of fluffy. But I can say fluffy. It is fluffy. But I can see it. I can I can see how it's how it's going to work. I can see that this is the it's just sitting there activity Pub is it just sitting there ready to be used for whatever abused, really abused by us for whatever we need it for. And as its as such, it has such mass that it's I think it's really good. Now of course, Dave Jones: he's gonna talk about discovery to you. This really helps discover Yes, Adam Curry: of course his block lists, which will be interesting, but that's a whole nother thing to deal with eventually. It's Dave Jones: surely we initially won't be on on any because this is a new domain that won't. We won't have a prayer because podcasts index dot social is on block list, but podcast

1:38:38 index.org is nice. So maybe we'll have a we're on block lists. Social Yeah, we're on block lists. Why? Because it's affiliated with you. Oh. Adam Curry: Really? That guy? That guy? Really? I'm uh, we're on BlockLess because of me. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, Dave Jones: we talked about on the show of a long time ago. It was like, all these stupid reasons. You know, the reasons are hilarious that they give us all is like a you know, no agenda social adjacent or something. Adam Curry: Man. That's amazing. That's crazy. Shall we thank a few people, man. We just we went through a buck 40 There. That's pretty good. All right, let me see what we got coming in Dred Scott. It's a lot less than normal, of course, because this is the boardroom after dark. Dred Scott bread 23456 Missed the Go Live as I've been canning pumpkin butter. Well, we all have priorities. We all have priorities drag. Catch you on the flip side when I'm working on chapters. Please be careful where you put your web finger when dealing with Gui gewiss.

1:39:51 Sorry, could not resist he says yes, I got your brother. As Great. Thank you. Chad f is this the booster Graham lounge Karen's always talking about Yes. This is the one you got it. We got 12345 from primitive one. Interesting. When you do in in helipad 12345 is See No Evil Hear No Evil speak no evil monkeys as is the emojis that pop up as usual happy to be part of the revolution we got there is chyron mere mortals podcast 1111 I lied. I can actually join for a bit. I'm let your lead we're all met. Yes we are. We are we are well, yeah. Well let me see I just did a boosted ground ball this afternoon. So there's a lot of stuff here is chyron pre boosting and bemoaning fate the one time you guys change your schedule just for me. Right? I have other obligations. Okay. So he was able to listen to a little bit obviously, I guess he's, he's just getting up. You must be morning there in Australia.

1:40:54 Think I can't remember. And those were our those were our booths that came in during the live Dave, what do we have in on the on the schedule from us since our last board meeting? We Dave Jones: have we got we got one. Pay Pal for the week, we get Oscar marry $200 from the founding guys, and that deserves a Adam Curry: stock call off what is blades? Only him? Paula, thank you so much, Oscar Mary. That's very much appreciated. Dave Jones: Yeah. And we'll I think we discussed his proposal and we're well, towards the end of the month, we'll get back I think we can hopefully if we can get we can get some consensus and everything around that.

1:41:36 Adam Curry: Adding a new type to the the, the value block. Dave Jones: Value recipient, recipient, yes. Okay. So that so they can have Lightning Lightning addresses in the value recipient deck? And I really don't, you know, so many people are using Alby. Now, I don't think it's going to hurt anything, because it's gonna it'll be the apps can just hand that lightning address to Alby and let it resolve that itself, Adam Curry: which works fine. I mean, sovereign feeds does that. And so we don't have to resolve with that'll just be a wallet, a wallet provider resolution? Yeah.

1:42:18 Dave Jones: Yes, right. Yeah, no, I don't think you'll have to resolve all in app that. I don't think this is a scary change, I think it's, I think it's going to be fine. It's going to make it will make things easier for them. Because if they have to change infrastructure, if they have to switch their nodes, lb and fountain hosts so many nodes, is difficult for them to track down all these podcasts that are still going to be using the old pub key. So and it doesn't, it doesn't prohibit anybody, you can use pub key. If you want, you can use lightning address if you want. I think it's fine. So hopefully we'll get that done by the end of the month so that they can we'll put that in the spec so that they can move on. Okay. Thanks.

1:42:58 Thanks, Oscar. Appreciate that, that that support. Mike Dell, we get the guest boost. Mike Dale 1701. He says now My name is on it. Adam Curry: He was I think it was boosting to be in the chapters, which was by the way, oh, that's kind of nice. It seems like everybody kind of resolved that. Seems like most of the apps have gotten the TOC equals false working for them. And I don't think I think it's the problems have kind of kind of gone away. It's nice. I'd like that. Dave Jones: Yeah, I haven't seen any complaints about it lately. Adam Curry: So I think podcasts the guru still needs to implement a change maybe but I've only gotten one complaint.

1:43:41 So in the end that that guy was like, Okay, that's cool. You said hey, the chapters are all messed up. No, it was it was it was an app that we didn't even know about I caster has never even heard. Yes. And I cast her apparently is doing chapters and from what I understand the web version at least of Pocket Casts also does cloud chapters now. Yes. Dave Jones: Another another reason why it's It's okay. We pause here for a little while with the namespace because three years later answers is just coming on board. Adam Curry: That's a big deal, man. That's a big deal. I think that's phenomenal because booster grams we've been showing up on Pocket Casts according to Dame Jennifer.

1:44:24 Dave Jones: I hope that pre stages some more some work on the actual native apps. Yeah, wouldn't Adam Curry: that be nice? Yeah, Dave Jones: that'd be wonderful. Yeah. Every piece is podcast indexed as social as 82 blocks and then a social has 920 Adam Curry: Yay. We're number one. Dave Jones: All the blocks on the podcast index dot social, just say Indian Santa Claus beside them. Adam Curry: We just added 15 blocks to our to our Mastodon Dave Jones: gene been 20 to 22 Row ducks to customers. A cosmetic he says Bring on the ipv6.

1:45:05 Adam Curry: Isn't it amazing that the a cast was the CEO? I was really baffled by this. It was pod news was reporting on it that the CEO said, Well, you know, our list our downloads are down. Because Apple changed the automatic downloads like what do you just say the quiet part out loud dude. What did you just do? Really? You didn't just say that. Did you? Yeah, that's even funnier to hear James had no I can't be Apple yet. It'll be Apple next month. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't just prove that is kind of bogus. Am I Am I seeing that wrong?

1:45:49 Dave Jones: No, no, I think you're 100% Right. That's Adam Curry: I thought that was funny. Dave Jones: The other the other one I love this week with everybody reporting their earnings. You know, is like we were you know, they always report revenues up and it's like, still not making a profit. most Adam Curry: profitable. If we only fire five more people will be profitable. Uh, come on, guys. Dave Jones: pesky payroll. Chat F 10,000 SATs. Great episode today. Thank you, Chad. Appreciate it. Thank you, brother. See RP. 1984 4000 SATs through fountain he says currently using fountain and even after digging through the menu, I did not see how to bring up the artist info. Thanks for the heads up, Adam. I'll dig in some more this weekend and find that Adam Curry: I think what he's talking about is when we have a magic wallet switch, also known as value time split. And if you're in Fountain you when you're listening to a podcast that has in this case, as you're talking about music, you go to the References tab on that episode and then the References tab will show you all of the artists all the tracks that were played in the song and on that podcast guru it's the V four v.

1:47:08 Logo works really well. It's very cool. Dave Jones: Did you Did Mr. Graham ball live right? Adam Curry: I did. I did like an hour and 20 minutes I couldn't stop. Oh, wow. I love that. I Dave Jones: love the image check the top. The top 1x x it Adam Curry: was top 156 for me today. Oh top 159 Actually let me see what is it right now? 167. Um, we got a lot of tops. pirate radio number one. We got shrooms. By the way. I want to say hi to Barry from pod home.fm Just a Dutch guy. Dave Jones: Oh, yes. He and he Adam Curry: was interviewed if you haven't listened to it yet was interviewed on pod news weekly review. And he said something to me in Dutch is he will do seller base it here.

1:47:59 Okay, so Dave Jones: now now who's this is like an audio DM. That's exactly what that was. Adam Curry: He apparently has his service you. You just throw your podcast in there. And it does everything and it comes back after like a minute and says, Here's your transcripts. Here's your title. Here's your here's your chapters. It doesn't all in one go. Yeah. Oh, crap. He said I have no, he was a great term. And I have no not code legacy. But oh, there's a term for it that I really liked. Like, no, because when you have when you have old code that you just have to deal with and you can't implement and that there's nothing to say yes. Yeah, I have no debt. I have no technology debt. It's exactly what you said. It's like wow, that was very cool. These interesting guy that's why I want to check it out what he's doing, because seems like he kind of leapfrog with the AI stuff. Instead of being a strap on. Add on. Sorry, an add on. My wife isn't home okay. Dana, come back and come back like yeah, you just you just upload it and it does all this stuff for you. I have to check it off to see it, though. Nice. Sounds cool. Oh, sounds cool.

1:49:19 Dave Jones: See, we get 31 night is a 319480. That's 319 48. Israeli Adam Curry: Israeli. Yes. Hey, how you doing brother? Dave Jones: Cast? emetics is sorry for live boost apps. It's been a little distracted here. Adam Curry: Just a little distracted with it was a war. You guys are next Dave Jones: door. Yeah. I'm still around and pod ping is still pinging? Yes. Adam Curry: And is Broyles Okay, I see Roy's on the telegram so he's still alive. Everyone's still good. Let's go our friends are alive. Dave Jones: Yes, some breeze is working on stuff. One of the vet developers at breeze the enemy on podcast index dot social is Adam Curry: working on VTS right now your time listen I think so you and I saw that some of our devs are looking at the breeze SDK.

1:50:08 Dave Jones: Yeah, Alex is he's he's been digging into it. Yeah. Yeah. Cool for Greg Greenlight. Let's see. Where did I lost my cursor? There it is. Circus media sent 167 of 3333 Oh, that was a that was a VTS boost? says our mateys. I guess he's talking about pirate Adam Curry: pirate radio Sure. Dave Jones: As a Karen mere mortals podcast 2222 Tiny Tim you missed the perfect episode to play my ISO. I know a lot I know I forgot it. Um, see the ISO there's an ISO ISO and I forgot to get it out of my email. Oh, I'll get it for next year. Jacobson is 2222 as of BTS boost he says excellent track.

1:50:56 Thank you, Jacob. Balderdash boys and 22 to 22 do Felton. He says great episode in the last few months I switched to blueberry because they seem to really want to embrace 2.0 And I haven't been disappointed. Thanks for all that you guys are doing to revolutionize podcasting. Go podcasting. Sir Wes of beer bourbon and balderdash. Yeah. Adam Curry: This guy's are pretty funny. Oh, yeah. Got a lot going on. Yeah. Dave Jones: Mitch, D as Mitch downing for your uninitiated. 10,000 SATs through pod versus new and pod verse turbo confetti dopamine boost. Adam Curry: I know what that means. I do I do. Because when you use pod verse and you boost it because just whatever the overhead is, whatever you know, you know because a lot of splits it would do all the splits before pod verse would give you some gratification and now it's just like here take this spurt here's some confetti trust us the payment went we think check later. I guess it's the way to go premature Dave Jones: it's a premature confetti I guess. That's Adam Curry: That's what pod verse does. You know, you hit the pod verse was the whole screen shakes, lightning shows up confetti goes and like check later to see if it went through.

1:52:14 You're good. You enjoy your listening experience. Trust me. Which honestly, I think is the way to go. Dave Jones: Thanks, Mitch. Appreciate it. Comic Strip blogger. The delimiter the delimiter 30 915 C. Wait, Adam Curry: do I 30 915 No, Dave Jones: don't miss one. Oh, wait, wait. I'm 31 it threw me It threw me off e podcast or sent 10,000 SATs. Thank you through fountain 10,000 SATs because we are on day 10 of national podcast post month aka net not pod Pomo oh yeah, this Adam Curry: is I don't know what that thing is. No more podcast post month. I have no idea who made this. Omo is someone's making money off of that. No doubt. scam.

1:53:06 Dave Jones: I can tell. Thank you e podcaster. And now comic strip blogger nearly 30,915. Yes. Yes. Through fountain. Howdy, David. Adam. Check out unrelenting. The podcast where Jean and Darrin make sense. And a few jokes about everything from Tech Trends. Taylor Swift, how to get rich quick to political twists, tune in laugh and maybe learn something at WWW dot unrelenting dot show or live on no agenda stream one or two hours before podcasting. 2.0 live stream yo CSB. Adam Curry: That's right, they usually on right before us. Dave Jones: Get some monthlies. Get Joseph maraca $5 Emilio can Oh Molina $4 you by the way I think Emilio is a Mexican podcaster or Podcast Producer I'm not sure. But did you see it on live stream I Adam Curry: podcast is pod con.mx Live It was very good.

1:54:12 Now. What was weird is the balance was a little bit off for me. So I wish I could have balanced between hearing James talk and and the Mexican Spanish translation. Okay, so that got a little you know, I was like I got a little nutty. But that's the whole thing. The fact that it worked. The fact that you could boost I watched it pod verse on the web. Did you watch it in an app? Dave Jones: Not just about it was during work hours. So I was I was checking the curio I looked at it and it was a curio caster. Yeah. Okay. We're in we're Murphy. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Pod verse. Adam Curry: Yeah, the pod verse on the web version one. It's great.

1:54:55 Dave Jones: Yeah, it was it was perfect. Like God bless you. Roberto and Ben for like doing some sort eating your own dog Adam Curry: food. Yes, yes, exactly. Dave Jones: That is we need more of that people in people in podcasting, using podcast apps to do the stuff. Don't you know, instead of jumping over to, to YouTube or something else, yes, use the apps use the apps in your own ecosystem. I Adam Curry: thought it was. It was really cool. I love that because it's one of those things. Now, did they organize this podcast? That was RSS as deal? That was their own? I think? Dave Jones: I think so. Yeah, they have a big presence in Mexico. They're real big push down there. You Adam Curry: know, those kinds of things. It's like risky, and it could be you could wind up looking like an idiot. So I for the same reasons, Dave, I appreciate him like, Oh, that's so cool that you guys did that. And yeah, you know, and there's this there's this. I know that Alberto is going to write it up because there's a there's a live show that's going to be taking place I think in December or January in Avenue one I think it is it's in Minneapolis be like Prince's old club or something.

1:56:11 And just loud and Ainsley Costello will be performing live. And, and the guy who owns the club, I think of the venue. You know, he's been like, yeah, I wanted I want to do value for value. And I know he's talked to Alex and I know but I've talked to him. I don't know why. They haven't even mentioned noster Asia. Yeah, I don't work with Adam curry. Okay. You know, it's just to do this thing live. But I think for some it feels to me like, like, they don't want to do it or it's not nostre are something which is just whatever it is, you're making a mistake.

1:56:52 This is the way to go. This is the way to go. But it works people can can connect their wallets, they can they can they can booths, they can stream it works. Bitcoin, Amsterdam. You guys are losers, you should have been doing this. We told you we'd help you you didn't get back to us. And here's rss.com Just doing and you know what, I'm going to tell you what's gonna happen. They're gonna do this with Crowder, louder with Crowder like him or not doesn't matter piece on rss.com You know, after he left, whatever the left YouTube and all these guys whatever. And I said you should go with the with one of our guys. So they went with rss.com. You watch they're going to be streaming live with this live stuff and they're going to be getting boosted grams. I can feel it. I can feel it. I'm not a wall. I Dave Jones: don't listen. I've never listened to his shows. He does a live show.

1:57:48 Adam Curry: Yeah, I think he does alive. Yeah, Dave Jones: I think the crew Crowder, go, yeah, that that that would be killer, that we just need more. More than just need more of this. We need more of people in the podcast world using podcast apps to do their stuff. Because I mean, if you say your pot, if you say if you talk up if you say podcasting is where it's at. Prove it. Adam Curry: Yeah, Todd. Todd. Whoa. Well, come on. They they do it live doing it. He's Dave Jones: doing it live. Adam Curry: He's doing the audio. He's doing the audio, but I don't think he does the video. I don't think he does video that that's on. I believe they do that on YouTube. I Dave Jones: want to see the podcast. What are the words that he does? Well, Adam Curry: that Well, I don't want to wait another year for the next new media show.

1:58:42 Dave Jones: But these conference type things where do you do you know, like these events? Yeah. Adam Curry: You know, maybe, maybe, you know, I'm gonna get mad one of these days and I'm just gonna do a conference. No, Dave Jones: you're not no. Yeah, that's all Yes. Okay. All right. Tina, come back. This is how Adam Curry: we keep each other and you Dave Jones: just raised this Absolutely. You're losing it. Adam Curry: Come home quick. a month. Rest Dave Jones: of the Muslims got basil. Philip $25 Thank you, basil. We appreciate that very much pod verse. Mentioned the boys $50 Adam Curry: Thank you Lauren ball. $24.20 Dave Jones: Thank you, Lauren. Christopher horrible. Eric $10 and Mitch Mitchell Downey again $10. Yes.

1:59:24 Adam Curry: Thank you all so much. We appreciate the support. You're supporting our our Obliteration and we really appreciate that our mission is to you support us until we don't need support anymore. And then we just gone and then everything works. It will be verified and then Adam and Dave just we just peace out. We just sail off we just go into the sunset, like to cowboy hat. Christopher Christopher cross, say Lin, take me away too. Where the latency doesn't work with our harmonies?

2:00:06 Yes, Chris, criss cross as we say, Yes, criss cross, Dave Jones: this criss Adam Curry: cross. Let me see if I have anything else on my list. Pom Pom Lucy. Well, just even though we passed the topics Mozilla is working on fare defying in the browser, I guess was that the article we have in the browser here activity pub in the browser? Curl now does IPFS Dave Jones: yep, that's the deal. But Adam Curry: they use a gateway, right? It's not really an IP, it is not doesn't have an IP Fs client. And it magically you can just define a gateway. Dave Jones: You can you define a thought you define the Default Node.

2:00:52 Adam Curry: Okay, so it doesn't include a node you can you can define a node on your own machine. I Dave Jones: think that's right. I did. I don't think it's using a gateway I think is native. Because it's talking about I mean, I think it's native. I'll have to reread it but I thought it was native. Adam Curry: Well, I thought I thought it could breed the native IPFS and then it would retrieve it from the gateway you define. Maybe Maybe I saw that wrong. Maybe I saw that as Dave Jones: a basis for get merged into curl. I love curl with you. I'm a curl guy over wi yet it's got way more way more capable. At the first input there are various ways to access data one such ways to conserve gateway. Or Lani, Evie, there's integration curl hides this gateway logic for you. So instead of providing a full URL to a file on an IP Fs like this you can provide it with the FAA as a protocol Yes, you're right you're Adam Curry: my SIR wins again. Yeah, yes, yes. Anything I'm good at it's man. Man Man curl. And thank you very much Spotify for pushing more people towards value for value music pushing us toward the value verse. New term New term I came up with today.

2:02:19 The value verse Yes. By no longer paying people any money great. We're so appreciative. Like, you have to be played at least 1000 times a month before you get any money and the money if so if you have 999 streams, they give it to Taylor Swift. I'm telling you these guys these guys got great marketing come to us we'll rip you off. Dave Jones: It's hilarious that it was it was Twitter or something? Where did I see that check of somebody who had like a whole ton of streams and it was like 1000s and 1000s 40 bucks. Adam Curry: I think that was I think it was on I might have been on the mastodon I saw it and then I love and Sam Seth he was doing some great math I love that. He's like you know for all that you know if you'd done it by this and divided by 15 Square root you make more on value for value. That's right. always true. It's always true. All right, brother thanks for giving up your Friday night this was well worth it. I love being in the in the boardroom after dark with you Dave Jones: yeah that's that's yep conflict today day jobs happen so now's this was good.

2:03:28 Adam Curry: We should just plan this in from time to time just do I love I love doing a podcast at night. Nice and dark and get everything off. I got the green visor on. Dave Jones: gamma gamma lamp on the road casters. I'll pretty well, Adam Curry: you could see that. You could see the lights. Yeah, yeah, Dave Jones: we need to yeah, we'll do we'll do a brad every now and then once in a while. That Adam Curry: board room after dark everybody. All right. Thank you very much. Chat Room for being with us. And thank you for attending the board meeting. We'll be back next week with the board meeting of podcasting 2.0.

2:04:18 Unknown: You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcast index dashboard for more information. Adam Curry: Go podcast. Clearly something sexy is happening here.