Episode 153: Chapter HO

0:00 Adam Curry: podcasting 2.0 for November 3 2023, episode 153 Chapter everybody once again for your weekly board meeting of podcasting 2.0 Everything happening in the modern podcast space. You Yes, we are the only boardroom where a vote of no confidence is a good thing. Everything happening your podcasts index.org with a namespace Of course all the goings on a podcast index dot social. I'm Adam curry here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country and in Alabama ladies, he's had 989 days of uptime say hello to my friend on the other end, the one and only Mr. De Jones.

0:44 Dave Jones: The servers ahead of time. Adam Curry: Oh, I'm sorry. My Dave Jones: body is down. Adam Curry: Man, you're still sick, huh? Dave Jones: Um, for for Tiny Tim, I've gone I've gone all the way back like that little. I have that little little crutch the with the stick? Adam Curry: Under the under the under your your armpit stick? Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna blow my nose. Like, seriously when I'm blowing my nose. It looks like a crime scene. It's like a murder scene around here. Adam Curry: I think you have this every year. Don't use kind of a annual thing for you. Dave Jones: Oh, yes. My annual health. I got. I got COVID on Halloween. Oh, no. I got shingles on Halloween. Oh, Adam Curry: that was that was three years ago. Three years.

1:26 Yeah, Dave Jones: I had, yeah, my annual appointment. So I'm trying this new thing. Okay, this is great. Adam Curry: I bet it's great. Okay, what new thing do you have going on? Dave Jones: So I go to the I go to the end. User, here's my typical. Here's my typical strategy. So I'll give it a week. And then if I'm not getting better by day seven, Adam Curry: you call 911. Dave Jones: I just drove to the emergency room. I go to the end. And it's like, it's always about, sorry, it's a bacterial infection like sinus infection, antibiotic. You know, Bada bing, bada boom. So I go. And I talked to him. He's like, hey, you know, I would like to try something different with you this year. And I'm like, okay, all right. And he's like, we got this compounding pharmacy. Usually, usually I like, I like those guys. Yeah. He's like, we got this combat. And so it's like an antibiotic. He's like, he gets it. He's like, You got a neti pot. I'm like, Yeah, I get I love netic. He's like, get your net. He's like you poured you know, get your distilled water, put your saline pack and the neti pot. And then you open a capsule of this compounded stuff and drop it in there and mix it up in the new neti pot. You're yourself with that. And it's got an antibiotic and steroid in the, in the, in the compound. So he's like, do that twice a day for 15 days. All

3:01 right. So I start yesterday. And I'm like, you know, do I do it at it twice yesterday. Once this morning, I get to work this morning. And everybody's like, man, your face is like cherry red. What's wrong? Oh, no Adam Curry: allergic reaction is Dave Jones: something dude. Oh, no. My face is like, my face is like bright red. Looks like it's all chapped and red. So I had to call them the pharmacy and like, Hey, I'm having some sort of reaction. Adam Curry: Like you have leprosy. Dave Jones: So now I'm walking around on the Tiny Tim crud, you know, with like, the red face. And I'm like, you know, is it's a disaster over here. Adam Curry: You're on the prayer list. Brother. This is no good.

3:42 We got we got a call on the big guns for this one. Dave Jones: This is my obituary. Adam Curry: He was tiny, but his name wasn't him. Hey, man, I want to start off by saying something. I I saw what Jason was doing with podcast guru. And I'm like, you know, I really ought to try podcast guru. Now I'm on an Android derivative, which is known as Graphene OS. So basically, his android android derivative derivative. Holy crap. podcast is phenomenal. Great. Yes. I mean, it's, it's just, I don't know what everyone else is because I typically I'm using pod verse and fountain. But podcast Guru is snappy. You know, it really responds was is it some other programming language is being used there that's more native to Android or what is that? What what why, why? Why am I noticing the snappiness difference?

4:49 Dave Jones: I don't know what his I don't know what his build, like environment looks like. I mean, Android is natively Kotlin I think now, which is better squid Java Adam Curry: and it's just the May I have a couple may give a couple of pieces feedback for Jason since I'm talking about it one I get node lit alerts I don't know if that's the if I should be expecting it but it'd be live items it does find it oh Dave Jones: no, it shows I did not get the best signal for this show by the way. Well, I sent Adam Curry: it out you didn't get a bad signal Let me double check make sure everything's okay. Yeah, saves published Okay, let me double check published all right. Let me send that again. I've had been having some some weird issues like Bookstagram ball Okay, Dred Scott didn't get it either maybe I maybe I messed it up was fine. It could it be you know, gosh, I don't know who knows. But but I know I haven't been getting lit alerts. It'll show up fine. Like episode is live in two minutes.

6:00 One minute does all that but it doesn't fire off. All the other alerts work perfectly. I mean, right away, boom. I get I get alerts. But I just got it. You just got it now. Okay. Yeah. What do you do? Well, like fired I fired it off again. I don't know. Maybe. I don't know. But I still don't have one for podcast guru. Dave Jones: I just got it on. John. On the podcast index like Adam Curry: pod pod podcast live. Yeah. Which is a surefire way to know it's working. A couple of things. And I've noticed this in general, this is also for that get Albey guys when connecting my wallet to a podcast app and the only two I have to do that in is well now it's actually curio caster pod first partners. And and now podcast guru. This is set up sometimes man it can take a long time before it finally goes through. But you know, just sits there gives you no visual cues that it's waiting to authenticate or whatever it's doing. It just it fails a lot. It does this they still have disconnects man the split kit. Sometimes I have to, you know, I'll be saving stuff. And like it didn't save it because the login timed out or something. There's there's something going on with the get Alby times you out. I think I think I'm not sure.

7:26 Dave Jones: Yeah, I agree. It's it's generally like in pod verse a lot of times I have to read a lot. I had to re log in verse a lot. Yeah. Quite a bit, because I'll just notice that the boost buttons not showing up to go reconnect, I'll be well, Adam Curry: and that's another thing, podcast guru, not my expected behavior. Maybe it's not a bad thing. But you have to specifically opt into every podcast to sense that. So Dave Jones: I'm like, I'll have an account, so to speak. Well, Adam Curry: well, when you're streaming sets, it'll say it right there. And you can set it manually for your session. But that's not it doesn't keep it going for the next session. And if you're not paying attention, like oh, I wasn't streaming any Sass, I feel really stupid now. So and I understand that, you know, maybe not having it automatically. But it means that if I've gone through the through the time of setting up my default, streaming sites, and by default boost, I'm thinking like everything that is a is a V for v should be default on but it's default off, as okay. Now, there's also no way to see what my wallet amount is. Is like as guru. Yeah, yeah. So I think that's something that should be in there. And I'm just spouting this off Jason just because he happens to be here. I just wrote down this list. Like, let me talk about this. Also, I think he's, I think he's batching SATs and so it's very confusing when I see 500 SATs and I'm like, Whoa, is that per minute because I set it to 200. And but I think it's a batch which is okay, but

9:00 you know, I It doesn't What are you drinking? Dave Jones: This is liquid death sparkling water. Adam Curry: Oh, sweet. What's wrong with you? Don't drink liquid death. This is not good stuff. This Dave Jones: is leftover from the Halloween party. Adam Curry: Oh, this is horrible. Is it all caffeine or amphetamines or something? It's just it's just pure water. Dave Jones: Okay, but it's got a huge skull on it. Makes me feel Adam Curry: feel feel good. Makes you feel ready. Ready for the journey? Yeah. So that there's also no way to see the splits. And the and here's the here's the big one for me. The wallet switching? So it'll say in the amounts and it'll say T S. Which is I mean, I'm like, oh, that must mean time split.

9:50 Because I'm listening to a podcast with with music. But yeah, you mean say something else. I mean, this is wallet switched or whatever. or, you know, or show me who else it went to because I want to know the artists got it. So it's just it's just a minor stuff. But just let me Dave Jones: let me add that cast. Cast thematic, you know course, is only that cast ematic like I don't have I don't I rarely ever have my lb wallet disconnected and cast ematic I mean, I go into it, I go weeks without having to, like reconnect my wallet, okay, oh, I'm not sure what Franco's doing differently than what maybe Mitch and Jason are doing. But in it, but it's like that, that connection that token or authorization token unless Franco's just renewing it silently in the background. Like it is long it seems to be much longer lived and cast thematic dangerous and the other interesting Adam Curry: interesting yeah, and and also if you don't know it's disconnected you don't know You know, that's another thing Yeah, I think these are these may be general comments.

11:02 Everyone should take a look at it like I know it's not like you're busy or anything doing stuff. There's nothing going on. Nothing else you gotta be working on. But these are just little the I love the way pod verse shows that pod verse really shows it well, but pod verse Then conversely, when you hit the boost button, it can take a long time before you get some you get some satisfaction before you get to your confetti podcast guru by the way does lightning bolts and all kinds at all I'm missing is a thunderclap. Yeah, and then I think it just you know just does that and then does it in the background and figures it out for you which I think is a better user experience. That's Dave Jones: That's what curio caster does to you hit you get confetti. Yeah, right Adam Curry: away. You get comfy? Yeah, Dave Jones: you get satisfied and eat. Exactly, Adam Curry: exactly. And I want to welcome my buddy Cody from Kerrville who got his sidestream music podcast up on RSS blue, without without me having to help him at all.

12:04 Dave Jones: That's real man right there. Adam Curry: I think Dolby does help them out but or if he said Hey, Dolby das listen to what he said. It sounded great. But ya know, I love him for doing that. So he's he does the morning show. On what is it? Now I forgot what the rock of the rock of Texas rock of Texas and man he knows a lot of these value for value guys, a lot of them. So yeah, he's doing it. You got interviews going on all kinds of stuff. So we need a place as a pipeline then yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, definitely. Oh, he's he's been onboarding a lot of people. was great. So he's on RSS.

12:45 blue.com. I see that pod home.fm just launched today, I think, which also that oh, yeah, pod home.fm also has value time split, magical wallet switching technology. Dave Jones: I've been talking with. I think his name is Barry. Is that right? Yes. Barry. Barry. Yeah, I've been talking with him. You know, he's helped him with index stuff and getting set up with API keys and all that kind of stuff. I did not know that they launched That's great. Adam Curry: Yeah. And he has, I think even has a music lookup thing. Just like ours is blue.com has Oh, yeah. You know, I just love that. It's working that people get it. It's like, oh, okay, I understand how to do this. Fantastic.

13:27 Dave Jones: It tells me that it's not that of course, it's calm. It's complicated. But that's complicated in quotes. I mean, you know, lots of stuff is complicated. I feel this way about activitypub to, I feel like people get really freaked out over over sort of a more a more in depth protocols like that. But they're really at the end of the day if you if you sit down and really bang it out. It's not that hard, right? No, I mean, it's still just because if it was that complicated nobody would do it like caisson, you know, exhibit A, you know, web monetization or whatever that crap was that you had to have like a PhD you know, in order to understand the why paper nobody just nobody does it. The fact that people are doing this coming in sort of a little blind and doing it kinda off to you know, without a lot of hand holding is encouraging.

14:22 Adam Curry: Yeah, and that's and I think there's there's also a general thinking that no one will ever do this is to vie for V is too hard and makes no sense. People don't in fact, Oh, yeah. A little bit of feedback for the podcast weekly review boys. All right, I was doing my show prep. School. This is ongoing, because I mean, I'm boosting I'm boosting and I'm saying you can't do micro payments with Apple Pay. And Apple can't do them. Then James is just like Adams wrong. I'm sorry, Adams wrong here. But I'm not wrong, because you have to the whole reason lightning exists in a way bitcoin is because they can't do that. They can't, they would have to have a bank charter, which will probably never be approved by a regulator. Now, this is why I'm curious to see how Elon Musk will do it. The only thing I can think he can use is fed now, but even then he'll have to piggyback on some other bank.

15:27 Because you can't Apple can't just start doing micro payments because you gave him all your money. You know, there's a there's money laundering, there's all kinds of stuff that they then have to do. And it goes on their balance sheet. No, the hard No, it's not going to happen. This is why lightning is such so beautiful. And so to keep hammering on, no one will ever do it until it's dollars and fiat money. No, it's just not going to happen. Be won't go look at how the money system works in America. It has to be you know, the Buy Now pay later. That's MasterCard, and the apple credit card that's Goldman Sachs and boy they want to get rid of that business is so bad everyone's defaulting.

16:11 Dave Jones: Well, Fred said, you know, fed now came out with a with a with a bang and it's just like, I've never seen nothing. I mean, is there any adoption before there Adam Curry: was at a conference in Vegas? Like the money 2020 conference or something like that? Oh, yeah, I think it'll show up. It may be what what x implement but just so you know, it's like it's not it's not a matter of that apple technically couldn't you know, do your account but they don't do your account that's all banks that do that they are only middleware between you and your own bank. They don't have an account has to Dave Jones: be a bank No, I think what x wants to be is a bay Yeah. Are they wants to be good luck. That's but that's different than Google and Apple those there. Those things there Google pay Apple pay all that stuff? Those are Yeah, like he said those are using banks the same way that cash app does Adam Curry: Yeah. And exactly they got they have a banking license, a bank charter, by the way, things are really cracking wide open. Did you see strikes announcement?

17:18 Dave Jones: Now strikes? thing to me is what is how this evolves into the thing that James was talking about with using dollars, Yes, you bet you pay because I mean, strikes whole thing really, ultimately is sin money, but use Lightning as the as the substrate. And that that is very, that is doable. Adam Curry: But also you can do direct deposit to strike. You can you can wire money, you can do all kinds of things with strike. Now you can set it up so that it be you can pay in lightning payments, and it's deducted immediately from your debit card. I mean, of course, he's on the inside, right? His parents are big in the financial industry. So he's got all the connections in the legality. I'm talking about Mallory. Sorry, Molly. Yeah, so he's got he's got all that set up. And it's great, you know, so but this is really mainstreaming and if you'll see what's happening with Bitcoin, and I, I pay attention to these things part of what I do and all you're hearing now from the financial markets is well bitcoins a safe haven you know, they're treating it as a legitimate I'll say asset but really it's a commodity but they're they're treating it as a legitimate investment or use vehicle they still haven't figured out that people are actually using it as money. I buy beef with it. We are using we have a complete microcosm economy with with the Lightning Network there. Yeah, we're

18:49 boosting back and forth, but it's value. We're boosting it back and forth between podcasts. Okay, maybe it's not going that far out of the system just yet. But Tina, who has CloudHealth she says, Oh, in January, I can start paying my bi monthly CloudHealth bill with lightning. It's like okay, beautiful. So yeah. Dave Jones: Yeah, I got a buddy that does CloudHealth that's pretty sweet service. Yes, Adam Curry: it's fantastic. It's really good. Dave Jones: He's not had any any trouble with it at all. Adam Curry: Only good, good experiences. Dave Jones: So yeah, I think this like the strive to be to be clear, if people didn't keep up with that as the strike thing.

19:30 Like what the feature that I was talking about was, you can with the new version of strike you can you know, is like you can attach a debit card to your Stripe account and then you can pay a lightning payment. And you don't have to already have a balance right? It will just it will pay the payment. It will do it will immediately deduct enough cash out of your debit card right then do the conversion sin the lightning payment and you never have to like transfer money out of your bank account into the into your Bitcoin balance ahead of time. Right? It's just It does all the conversion in one. One swift motion. Yeah. That's like, that's how we get to that thing that they were talking about.

20:17 Adam Curry: Yeah. Yeah. And that that is the way forward and Apple might be able to implement that. I don't know if they will. I don't care. I really don't Dave Jones: you told James Boggs, two and a half years, three years ago, they should have Adam Curry: told them a lot of things. And many left. He's like, Stacy, can do it all. Let her do it. Dave Jones: He was like, How about what do you think about this new Plaskett podcast subscription thing that we're about to do? Like it's stupid. Adam Curry: So I want to talk about Apple in a moment, because two other things I want to mention to our developers. Right now, the breeze SDK, along with green light, these are full noncustodial very simple to implement wallets that are really full nodes that you can use might want to consider looking at those, because we're all on Albie right now. I love to get Alby guys, please don't get me wrong. But it's it's going to be a sad day, when you're going to be answering 100 emails an hour of people saying it doesn't work. And the breeze is doing with their SDK, which is actually I think, may even become a part of get Alby. I think that Roy mentioned that I'm not quite sure how they're working together. But also, and you get the you get your 12 words, you know, so you can

21:47 backup your account, you can recover your account from anywhere, it's fully noncustodial. I think it's worth looking at, because we're so reliant on really one player is just something I'd like to mention. And they will eventually have key send incoming mail. So it'll be two way and it might behoove you to have that as a part of your app. So you can go up as Dave Jones: the green light just went public. Yeah. They just released like, what, couple of days ago? Yeah, as they Adam Curry: say, it's all really simple. And you don't have to worry about stuff. And you don't have to worry about liquidity or any of that any of that stuff. It's worth having a look at, you know, just we should we should have more options available. And I think they're available, but we haven't really talked about him and was just like, Okay, it's implemented, it's good to go. But, you know, and then back to Apple and podcasts, Pocket Casts, I just wanted to say how incredibly disappointed I am in these people. Seriously, I mean, we even have antenna pod now implement implementing transcripts, there's so much richness being published. After about three years, such rich content. And you really, I think, you all know that your business model is not going to be in providing this for people who only use your app that the content is being created freely

23:21 for you by wonderful podcast hosts. You know, it's there, he all you have to do is just implement it. And I have high hopes for Apple. Because of Stacey now being over there. I hope that she can push through some some of the newer modern features, but it's just like, What are you guys doing? I mean, what is wrong with you? Do you know where this came from? Do you know who your daddy is? Daddy Dave Jones: Apple told us to podcast moments ago that they were about to do transcripts in the podcast in Apple podcasts and they still haven't done it. Scripps is not that mean? Like that's, that's they've already done it in in Apple Music is not like it's not gonna be able to like copy and paste right.

24:18 Adam Curry: I don't understand why I Dave Jones: did enjoy this. I did enjoy reading the podcast industrial complex, trying to. Yes, I did enjoy reading All of the explanations that we worked with Apple to convince them that their way of doing downloads, automatic downloads was bad for the advertising industry. Therefore, they said that they were going to change and update their tool and they did so we had this we all signed this letter and blah blah. Sure. And then and then it comes out later Apple says we made this change to improve battery Live? Yes.

25:02 Adam Curry: Well, that is a bring up a good point. And you have some good opinions on this. I would like to say that this latest change in iOS 17 shows how fragile your business model is in the podcast industrial complex, just wait until ipv6, and we're going to talk to our boardroom guests today, when ipv6 become real, and it will eventually mean it's showing up more and more, and you're going to be gone, it's going to be done, whether it's ipv6, or Apple flipping on their VPN, or just, you know, more VPNs in general, the EO. And immediately I thought, how can I spin this into something good? And well, first of all, why don't you talk a little bit about you wrote a great blog post about this, I should probably put that in the show notes. That the writing is on the wall, it's coming. It's like a freight train. And the pic is standing on the tracks going with what like a deer in the headlights going, Whoa, what's those motorcycles, Lincoln?

26:04 Dave Jones: Cat? Adam Curry: Do you not see that this is going to run right over you the image and you know, just like Apple waited for a reason to do out this download thing was oh, save battery life. They'll wait for another reason to switch on the VPN. It's coming. Dave Jones: I've got a lot of thoughts about Apple's role in things in you know, app. So Apple, we've all been myself included, have been irritated at Apple for not allowing you to specify a default podcast app on iOS. Yeah, for a very long time.

26:46 And so, and I have railed about it Adam Curry: anti competitive, really, I mean, if I had enough money, I'd sue them over. It's anti competitive. Dave Jones: It feels that way. And but I've actually started to shift, I've started to see this in a different way. It's still to be clear, is still irritating. And but I think I may understand why they're doing this. Adam Curry: Okay. And why they're doing what? Dave Jones: Why they don't allow that. Oh, okay. So I think it's all has to do with the competitive landscape. So they their apples in the business of, you know, they have Apple Music.

27:33 They have Apple TV, and they have Apple podcasts, let's just say those are their three media in media centric apps on the phone. And you have Spotify, who has music and and podcasts. And now they're trying to do get into video. You have YouTube, who has music pot, you know, video, obviously, and now they're trying to get into podcasts. So you have these two players that over here, YouTube and Spotify. I'm speaking as apples. This is this is an apple. I won't even say I'm an Apple executive or an Apple guy. I'm not gonna say I'm somebody in the Apple podcast team. And those people have been there forever. And they have a different perspective. They tend to care about open podcasting. They may not always do everything, this ride for open podcasting, but they do care about it. There's a there's a history there. And they look at spod cast at Spotify, and YouTube and they say okay, these are two walled gardens that if we let them they are going to take over pod of they're going to try to put a moat around open podcasting. There, they will try to capture it.

28:59 Adam Curry: Oh, and I know exactly how they're gonna do it. You're I think you're right. Dave Jones: And if and if we Apple began speaking as an apple podcast insider here, if we Apple allow people to set a default pod, their own default podcast app, they lose people, they lose, they lose the ability to force podcast, open podcasting to be a thing on in the Apple ecosystem. Right now if you want to play in the Apple ecosystem in the podcasting world, your your 99% of the time forced into the apple podcast app, which still uses RSS as his primary mechanism. If you allow that to to change, immediately, immediately. You run the risk of having 25% or plus of the podcast world, maybe switch over to become confined behind Spotify. And I think they care.

30:05 I think they care about that not happening. They don't make money off. Apple doesn't make any money on podcasting. No, but they do care about not giving. I'm not saying this is all altruistic, I think it's I think it's enlightened self interest on their part. They don't want to give YouTube and Spotify, more leverage in the worlds of music and video correct, either. And so this is their way of maintaining a fragmentation to Spotify and YouTube can't, can't overcome. Well, I Adam Curry: can already predict what's going to happen. And I will make a prediction and a recommendation. One, they're going to expand their own names namespace to add transcripts, maybe chapters. Oh, god, oh, yeah, they're going to add it to their namespace. My recommendation would be to also recognize the podcast namespace. And by the way, if they do that, I'll start a lawsuit. I will, I will, I will sue them. Yeah. I think we can't wait.

31:11 Dave Jones: As long as they're assholes. Adam Curry: illegal. It's illegal in America to be in a hole Dave Jones: that's what I got. That's what got Alex Jones. Yeah. Adam Curry: Exactly what happens in Dave Jones: boys what it boils down to people, like, why do these just nail Adam Curry: we'll see, but it will be beautiful. If they just said, You know what, there's this. There's hundreds of 1000s of feeds that have transcripts, hundreds of 1000s of feeds that have chapters, maybe start, you know, easily and I understand they want to control the experience. And, you know, but play with us play with us become our friends again. To Steve died, it became horrible. He wasn't the best. He really wasn't. But the initial, the initial start, the initial openness that Steve Jobs had, and how can we help you guys?

32:10 How can we make this work for you? was beautiful. And okay, you know, yeah, so you still started off by promoting NPR and PBS and BBC. It's okay. We get it. But the his, he had a Kismat about him. You know, he had a Louis that he understood that, you know, these are the people who are making it work. We don't have to do anything. We can only benefit people want our devices. That's it. Anyway, we may have done I'm getting to be as bad as Todd Cochran talking about YouTube, by the way. We have I wish I think we should bring them in and we're going to do a drinking game. Instead of a drink every single time Todd Todd Cochran says YouTube you have to boost boosts every single time Todd mentions YouTube you have to is that a good game? Should we try that for today?

32:59 Dave Jones: And I don't wait. Let me refill my wallet. Adam Curry: Let's bring him in because we're already way into their into their territory. Welcome to the podcasting 2.0. board room. We have Mike Dell and Todd Cochran from blueberry. Hello, gentlemen. Todd Cochran: Happy podcasting, gentlemen. Mike Dell: Yes, it's a nice nice boardroom. You must have painted. Adam Curry: Thank you. It smells a bit so it's a little kind of freshly painted vibe. Yeah. Good to have you guys back. It's been a while. Dave Jones: Yeah, we've been busy. Very busy, Adam Curry: very busy. Very busy. Tired, of course, is my crack dealer. Every single time that new media show comes on.

33:40 Like, I'm gonna do some crack. I'm gonna do some crack. I'm gonna sit there and be aggravated and get sick from it. But I want the crack. I want the crack. But I Todd Cochran: could offer to fill your Satoshi bucket today. But let's not talk about the company that should not be talking about Adam Curry: Good luck. Good luck. Good luck with that. Good luck. Hey, I had a question for you right off the bat. Just you know, since we're in the transparency of the boardroom Sure. You mentioned about a month ago I think that your value for value numbers you reverse engineer it because you know you got a split from from every payment that your customers get and you said that podcasters had received about $10,000 value for value. Yep. Which is phenomenal I thank you for thank you for mentioning that number. What's interesting is you were talking about this being a fraction of your ad numbers and then you had all right I can't I can't tell anybody or I can't talk about why can't you tell us what your podcasts are making with advertising is why is that a secret?

34:46 Todd Cochran: My board just fire me I'm still accountable I you know, there's certain things we don't talk about. Adam Curry: But value for value numbers are okay but add numbers are not okay. Like you know, because I talked about the payout I mean not not the total amount but the payout to Todd Cochran: to podcast, I suppose we could I think the challenge is, is that we? I tried to be careful. Yeah, no. And you never know what's going to trigger a board member to get upset at me. The the podcasting 2.0 stuff, they kind of let me run with scissors with it. I'm sure when that Adam Curry: is it is 10% The number of value for value versus ads? Is it less than 10%? Todd Cochran: I will say that the programmatic ads is many multiples of value for sure. Yeah, six times Adam Curry: seven. Come on. Next question.

35:39 Mike Dell: Todd just joined up or something? Dave Jones: What did you think about my, my apple opinion, Todd? Todd Cochran: You know? Yeah, here's the thing about Apple. Over the years, I've learned how to how should we say, as Apple nicely for things because they never talk whatever people say about Apple making a decision. It often comes from gentle persuasion, say, hey, we'd love to see you guys do this, it would help us this way. And then they kind of go, Oh, that's cool. They'll never they'll never say anything committal. I call it contractor talk. It's just like, you know, they're very, very careful. But then every once in a while, they'll throw us a bone and something shows up. And, and I kind of smile. And, you know, I'll silently send off an email to, you know, 10, or one of the guys or one of the folks over there, say, hey, thanks. And of course, they never respond. But they do.

36:32 But Adam Curry: they can't respond either. You know, that might be culpable in some Whoa. But part. It's really, it's really, it's really sad. It makes me sad. But also, it just makes me want to position them as your granddaddies app, you know, because that's what it is, at this point. I mean, look at the magic of, of some of these podcasts, apps, look at the phenomenal things are being done. And by in no small part, thanks to blueberry. Now, there's content that wants to be published. It's there, you know, it's like, why wouldn't you want to take that content? It's there. It's free. Mike Dell: There was, you know, there, they are definitely what I call a legacy app, you know, there. There's still a big player, but not much changes over there. As far as, you know, the customer experience, I should say, I Adam Curry: think it'd be, I mean, think about that. Because what what would Dave just said that, you know, they want to have that competitive, and they want to keep it fragmented. So Spotify is over here. Think about what happens the minute Apple says, Oh, by the way, we've implemented all of these new features that are available to you on all these podcast hosts and look at all the cool stuff we have now. Spotify, you know, they'd be they'd be caught with their pants down.

37:54 Todd Cochran: If they did announce that champagnes on me. So yeah, but you know that. That's what we can hope for. And And how about Pocket Adam Curry: Casts? What's wrong with those people? Seriously? What's wrong? Matt? I don't understand. We had meetings, we, we laid it out, there was interest, we showed everything. And then you know, it's like, nothing, nothing. You bought a product? And here's a great way to differentiate. Todd Cochran: Yeah, I talked to some of their team members over there, too. They were talking to us about power press a little bit, and then they just kind of go silent. Dave Jones: I think you know, the people, the listeners do choose podcast apps, based on features. Like, you know, there's yes, there's a large portion of podcast listeners that did obviously just go with whatever the default app is.

38:44 That's, that's that is a thing that happens for sure. But there are a sizable number of of people who they tried to take indica switched to a different app. And they're like, well, this new app doesn't have this feature that I have fallen in love with on this old app. And so like for you think about things like sleep timers and stuff like that. Some people are really in bed, you know, they're really attached to a particular feature of an app. And I feel like if Apple started implementing some of these some of the podcasting two point of features in a way because otherwise if you look at it it's a great it's actually add the pie Apple podcasts out is a good app. It's a quality piece of praise a quality product. It doesn't look like crap, it looks great. If they started adding some of these features, it would give people even more incentive not to go to youtube Spotify. Others are there because the YouTube and Spotify YouTube doesn't give a crap and Spotify they add features nobody cares about you mentioned like YouTube Yeah, but I'm not talking Yes, I'm Adam Curry: sorry. You're right. My mistake my mistake you get a pat Todd is crackling though man you got like some discharge have Putting and I mean, that's electrical discharge.

40:03 Todd Cochran: Benson weird. We're on fire here. You know I, Apple though they're fully about the listener experience. And we understand that all these new features are added to the listener experience. But they do things their own way at their own pace, and they're never committal. So your guess is as good as mine. But a TED in the rest. I know you guys are listening. But meanwhile, Adam Curry: may I make a recommendation? Next time Apple decides to do something just revolts like the removal of email addresses and whoa, whoa. No, stop, stop. Just we got to we have to start fighting back. Mike Dell: And as a fellow support guy, yeah. I feel Adam Curry: it's, I mean, at this point, it's gotten to the point where delete my podcast from your platform, like, Okay, done. If someone else says it was, if it was wrong, we'll bring it back. We'll bring it back.

40:57 Dave Jones: Fine bounds checking. Adam Curry: All right, you good done. All right, but don't like you Mike Dell: were talking about listeners picking an app, you know, I, I use overcast as my kind of daily driver. But for, you know, value for value shows and all that I use pod verse and there's things in pod verse that, yeah, that don't exist. Exactly. You know, exactly. I have auto playlists. And it's really hard. To do that in covers, Adam Curry: all I do is I just pick it, I pick an app and I just promote it on no agenda promoting podcast guru now. It's taking away actual Apple market share no problem. Todd Cochran: It's just like podcasters move into different podcast hosts, they don't once they get into a podcast, so so pretty comfortable on a small percentage might move at some point is something really supercharges them. But listeners the same way they get an app, they get comfortable. So what I really go after those brand new listeners saying, Hey, if you're new, you know, go over there to podcast apps.com and grab yourself a new modern podcast app, they don't know any difference. Training from Adam Curry: I agree, that's the most not to call yourself previously on the training business that we don't train our audiences. But it makes sense to just say, hey, use this app, because it's, and I think still, one of the top reasons to use a modern podcast app is pod ping. Like how many people are like, Yo p will be posting screenshots on acts like oh, great show, look at this art, and people go, Hey, man, it's still not an

42:30 apple. And I was like, Well, yeah, because Apple doesn't implement the the beautiful pod ping system, which is their free for use. A Todd will save the mice. Dave Jones: Why do you think that is that people don't switch podcasting hosts more often? Because you're obviously right, it's a small percentage that makes this switch. And then you have people that switch and this switch back? Like, what do you is it that they just come forward the UI with the payment with the way the payments work? Like what do you what do you think that's all? Well, Todd Cochran: oftentimes, and Mike can probably speak this more than I can, they will leave us because they've been told by a advertising agency, they have to host a specific platform and say, well, we'll leave the lights on for you and about 75% of them come back. But those that come to us are our Georgia technical podcasters podcasts that understand all of these features. So again, it goes back into literally educating podcasters about these features that that are now being available to them and how it can make how and we have to just continue to press that story at least at blueberry and and that word Buzzsprout and RSS blue and everyone else this our job is to talk about these new these new great features but you know when Mike has to teach someone how to right click their mouse that tells you why they don't move Adam Curry: Sure. And what what percentage of your customers do you think are using really using the 2.0 features and know their habit and and are actively engaged in in even telling

44:01 people about modern podcast apps is it best subtenants More Mike Dell: and more I've noticed you know I'm getting more questions I know what do I do for this you know I've I've shown people how to do value for value and you know live God bless you they put a whole network on that's live 24/7 And I put that lit tag in there for him or helped him do it and they've been getting a lot of traction with that Todd Cochran: I should run the numbers but again I would say sub 10% For sure you know Mike Dell: it's not much more than that Yeah. If that yeah, it new incoming customers I know so yeah, in fact people moving to us there's a higher percentage because the you know we do get some moves big specifically because of these features Dave Jones: in his that come in. I'm guessing that's coming into like podcasts mirror and podcast and power press more than blueberry proper are Mike Dell: good, you know a little of everything you know lot of the mirror the new mirror customers are are there for that reason. But, you know, just it could be their way or publisher system or how's that? How's Adam Curry: it going in general podcast mirror? Do you? Are you seeing uptake of that?

45:14 Todd Cochran: Yeah, we're seeing. I ran revenue report on it the other day, and I'm pretty happy with month one. And the goal, I have a goal number, you know, in the first quarter on it, so we'll see where we hit. And we're, you know, we're watching where people are coming from and we have had some SoundCloud people move. Adam Curry: Yeah, good. Good. I love that you have that guy. Todd Cochran: But but mere Yeah, they're mirroring there's, there's Adam Curry: no, yeah, yeah. And do they do use the value tags? Or the what are they using it for? Todd Cochran: Yeah, they're using the value tag. So you know, it's and again, it's, it's really about word of mouth of getting that information out there. Because, again, you probably have 99.9% of people that put stuff on SoundCloud, they had no clue what value for value is. So Adam Curry: what I'm seeing is everybody needs if you have a musician in your life and artists in your life, and you're listening, and you know what's going on, you know, these are the people you need to help and it's very effective. I mean, I saw Steve Webb, who's an OG God caster, onboard, like four different artists. And yeah, he's walking them through it, you know, he's like, Okay, here's your, here's your wallet.

46:22 And he sets it up for him and does all that stuff. And you know, and he's helping them with either but I think actually helps them with music side project, or I don't know why he was putting off maybe RSS blue. And the and you can I get I get emails like, hey, you know, this guy helped me and I'm seeing the stuff come in, and like, this is cool. It's like, they're really blown away. That that just you know, something's happening. They're seeing something something's returning. And it's, it's beautiful. When when people just see that and feel good about it. Todd Cochran: Yeah, Steve is in my email every once awhile saying, hey, when's value time split? And so where am I? I am I'm getting grumpy Adam Curry: about them. Release. Release. Release time.

47:12 Dave Jones: They can't let me so but Buzzsprout released pod roll. today. Are you are y'all doing pod roll? Todd Cochran: We're doing we're doing pod roll. We're doing Valley time split. We're doing remote item. What else are we doing? Okay. I think there was one more Yeah, fourth, Mike Dell: block block. We're doing the bottle. Dave Jones: Okay. Yeah, cuz, because but because the pod roll tag is like, I'm, I'm just chomping at the bit for this. Because that, Adam Curry: that's that that's the of the discovery mechanism we're looking at, right, Dave Jones: man, it's just gold, it's the discovery gold, like the, the the listener side of the equation is more difficult.

47:55 Because apps don't want to share, you know, listen, even and not they have this weird thing. They don't want to share it anonymized listener open, you know, feed lists and things like that. And plus, you know, it's a little clouded too, because you have all these feeds that people subscribe to, that they never really listened to anymore. So they're just like, they may be in their feed list, but they hadn't listened to the show in five years. So like to be able to get podcasters to, to go through and say, Hey, these are the shows I recommend, even if it's their own shows, I mean, doesn't matter. You know, or even if the podcast hosting company says, here's 510 15 great shows that we recommend from our net from our network of shows. Like, to me that is a strong signal of that I want to use for discovery. Yeah, I want to push that out in an API, that we're where podcast app 2.0 apps can grab it, and have an instant way of having some clean, very usable recommendations to start with.

49:01 Adam Curry: I'd love to have it in sovereign feeds. Even though even though Todd Cochran: the we got a demo on Wednesday of everything, except for Valley time split. So now the Dev is working on that. So I don't know if we're gonna release pod roll and remote item first, and then very time split. I don't know what how they're gonna sequence it out. But I made a couple of weeks. I'm got my fingers crossed. Dave Jones: Sweet, sweet. Awesome. Yeah, I'm looking forward Mike Dell: to that. And we got to get back to the top of that list, you know. Dave Jones: stopped trying to compete with Samsung, I think that's possible. Adam Curry: But you know, it's what I love that what's happening is we're seeing more it's small right now, of course, but I truly believe the music. The value for value music podcasts is a category and it's a category that will bring in people, new people. It'll bring in existing people like Cody from Kerrville. It'll bring in you know, it'll enable people Hold to just play a song, I think particularly for hosts as the music look up stuff, which seems to be the way to go, you know, even just for people to, you know, to even just discover music, I mean, ln beats all this stuff, this is going to happen.

50:15 I mean, it's it's unseen. I've never seen this much enthusiasm of people who are willing to sit down and break their brain trying to figure out how does this work? What do I do? I want to do it, how do I how do I make this work within the interface or whatever? It's, it's, I think it is a will be a boon for podcast hosts? Yes, let's get you to the top. Todd Cochran: You know, our, our challenge is always we have two development tracks, we have to update power press. And then we also have to update our dashboard. So we actually have to do twice the work to deploy Mike Dell: an eternal level mirror now so the area Dave Jones: mirror to Yeah, that is your, um, I'm going to I want to ask this general question about your hosting customers.

51:02 When or not, maybe not, it's not your customers on ask about your, the feeds in the podcast that you host. Do you have a sense for? What what would be a breakdown? If you had to just guess of people that just do podcasts like this couple of people talking? People that do more highly produced podcasts? People that do maybe audiobooks? Like? What do you think the brain? What is your sense of the breakdown of how your podcast base at blueberry? What is the types of content they're being put out?

51:43 Todd Cochran: Oh, they're definitely either solo, or have a guest or they're two hosts and have a guest. It's really good. And we've never really ran the numbers that way. I often look at it as a split between what we call dashboard customers and those who are in power press that runs about 70 3070 to the power press side, and not all those hosts with us. So I don't know, Mike, you talk to the customers every day what what I would say? Mike Dell: I would say probably 80 to 85% are hobbyist podcasters is what I call that, you know, aren't really that interested in making money. I mean, yeah, a little a little going out to dinner money be good, but that's not their main focus. And then, you know, we got another 10 or 15% that are, you know, more serious about it and trying to make a living and her try, you know, are doing it for some corporate reason, or government debts reason.

52:42 Dave Jones: So there's just some some folks that solo or some folks talk in or maybe a guest interview show, Adam Curry: I bet you How about your corporate a bit corporate is bigger than we think over there. Yeah, we have Todd Cochran: a huge corporate, Mike Dell: corporate and some government entities universities, Adam Curry: is that is that usually private feeds or is it like internet type stuff? No, we Todd Cochran: have DOJ, we have Senate House Representatives Voice of America. We got it. And there's a pile. There's our pile. Yeah. Bunch. Most most of those are public podcasts. Let's get DOJ Adam Curry: on value for value. That would be Mike Dell: why not Oh, VOA should do it.

53:24 Adam Curry: Propaganda arm of the US government. Why not? Let them promote something for us for a change? Todd Cochran: You want an eye opener? They have an incredible large number of shows. I mean, I know I Adam Curry: know. They're doing Oh, I knew that. Yeah, for sure. You know, you could also tell them like this is a great way to track stuff you know, this is a great way to see who's really listening percentage but Mike Dell: it was it was a list might close to 400 shows like yeah, right close to 400. And I bought war my elbow pushing the monster on the desk getting them set up. Dave Jones: Is it the Department of jet US Department of Justice? They're Adam Curry: paying the rent Nice. government paying nice. Dave Jones: A the DOJ is already selling Bitcoin. So they've got they've got away Adam Curry: their confiscated Bitcoin. What Mike Dell: if we get a little hobby?

54:14 Dave Jones: Is this justice.gov? Is that what we're talking about? Because Todd Cochran: I don't I don't look up there. We just they just have justice.com? Dave Jones: Yeah. Okay. So you don't look at it because you don't want anybody to know that you're Googling for justice. Justice. Adam Curry: That many podcasts. Todd Cochran: You guys said something earlier that you guys said something earlier that triggered me the ipv6 you want to talk about that? Adam Curry: Yeah, I do. Kind of. Yeah, yes. Yes. Yes. So the challenge Todd Cochran: with ipv6 is originally ipv6 was designed that everyone would get an ipv6 for life. Well, yeah. gonna happen and now they matter of fact, they those ipv6 addresses get reassigned. I mean, like, it could be every 10 minutes. You get a new ipv6 extension. But what we've found, and I think I'm not an expert, Dave, you can correct me if I'm wrong. I call him ochils. The if you have like, the fourth, Octo, that's the one updates like rapidly, and but the three prior articles do not. So did I say that?

55:21 Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah, that's the first do the first section is the ASN and then everything else 228 bit address? Todd Cochran: Yeah, so the if you had like, 2001 2001 2001 1000, the 1000 changes and 807 65 Boy 43 on a daily, really regular basis. But those first three, pretty much lock in those don't move too much. So yeah, it's gonna, it's going to change the Istat systems quite a bit. Dave Jones: And that's, I mean, that's mostly mobile right now. Yeah, the Adam Curry: road has three mobile needs, they have to move to ipv6. Todd Cochran: It's mostly outside the United States to its UC Asia is picked up by V six, huge. I mean, it's, you know, because I'd be before there. If you didn't have an ipv4 block, you know, you can't get them no more.

56:11 Adam Curry: Right. Yeah. Right. Dave Jones: Yeah, and that's gonna I mean, all of these things, like, I mean, it's just the, the way that the, the, it's, we've been talking about this lately, the podcast industrial complex, really is just the digital advertising industry. And they, they're clueless about how to get off being so dependent on IP addresses. Because this this is going it's the writing has been on the wall for so long. And all they do is just gripe about it. They have, they have no actual solutions. Todd Cochran: They kick the can down the road. But I know from discussions I've been in with the IB, and so forth, there are people that are panicking. Dave Jones: Yeah, they shouldn't be panicking. Because the, the, in the specifically I was talking about the IB at their last conference, the keynote, Nga was just talking about he was just bitching the whole time about about Apple private relay didn't know Adam Curry: what keynote was, what keynote was Mike Dell: released in Chrome two.

57:13 Dave Jones: Yeah, and this is going to become more and more of a thing. Where, because if you think you can, you don't even have to, you don't even have to think very hard about it. If you just look at Apple, Google and Microsoft, you can you can know ahead of time that they're not going to want to let that data escape. They want to use it. But they're not going to want to let third parties use it. And so it just embed the hooves them to put some sort of wrapper around the content that goes across their platform, so that they're the ones that get the benefit of being able to see it. But then it also but then when it exits onto the open internet, all that's gone. So there's just no, there's not going to be oh, there's no way to stop this train in the UK. If you're, you know, so you have to start doing the difficult work. I think that's what this all boils down to honestly, it's just laziness.

58:12 Adam Curry: Is this this is Dave, is this not the very reason why Google is going for the VPN, so that they still will be able to track the ads. Isn't that the that has to be the nobody else will be able to? Well, no, but they don't care. So but they're gonna give you a free VPN, basically, I guess, as a part of your experience, and you'll get used to it and you'll like it. And it'll be fast and reliable. And you'll feel good. But then they they and only they will be able to track the the advertising that runs through it. I presume that's why they're doing this. Todd Cochran: Now it's so crooked Mike Dell: in my or maybe maybe they'll try to sell it back to the advertisers. How about Adam Curry: this idea? It's a it's a very old idea. But maybe it's time to consider. So we have this wonderful system, we know exactly when someone's listening down to the minute.

59:05 And if you gave your listeners the opportunity, but if I said, All right, you know what, I want to try something, I'm gonna give you all a wallet, then here's an app with a wallet and start using this. And by turning it on and sending me one Satoshi view will be signaling to me that you're interested in advertisements that I select for you. So I'm just I'm turning that model on its head now instead of interruption based, instead of forcing in your face. I like ads. I mean, there's there's lots of shows where I'm like, oh, I want I want to hear the ads that you have if you the podcasts are selected them for me. And that doesn't mean that I don't necessarily want I mean, I might want to an insurance company ad, but okay. And then for every ad that I listened to, you'll actually cut me in on that. Yeah, and then and the advertisers have to be in this as well. I think there's a way that we can do this because we have this mechanism, which shows the attention is there that the play button has been pressed that someone is listening in real time. I mean, it. And I understand this. There's ways to game the system. But I feel like there's something in there that enough people would probably it would jack, your CPM rates up to 150. Believe me, if she if you could use that, look, I've proven these people want to hear your ad, they're listening to your ad. Is there something there? Do you think that would ever be possible?

1:00:31 Todd Cochran: Oh, there's something there because they're so hardcore on attribution right now. Mike Dell: For value for attributes, and that's what Adam Curry: I'm talking about. But you determine what the attributes are. I determine what I'm going to send along, I can be completely anonymous, I can give you my email address, and all this stuff can can be sent in the to V record, I see Alex gaze, rolling his eyes. But all of that can. Maybe me, maybe it's time to talk about his guaranteed payment record or whatever. I'm just thinking some payment tokens. Can we get out ahead of this? Because I'm not anti advertising at all? Todd Cochran: Adam? So do you want to get back on the media buyer training, go to New York and start briefing him because I'm sad, this is what's going to take it's going to take someone going to them and saying, okay, hey, we got a new way of doing attribution. And do you want on this on this train? I'm sure some would say yes. But you know, we have a hard night hard enough time telling them. You know, the story we've been telling them for 19 years. You bet.

1:01:31 Adam Curry: Yeah. But listen, I come into the room. And the first thing I say is, do you know who your daddy is? And then we're done. And that's, that's it? We're good. We're good. Dave Jones: I'd rather just see it fail because it's fun or for the show. Adam Curry: No, I'm not anti advertising. I enjoy hearing certain ads. And it should be a way to turn it off to like, you know, for some reason, Spotify still gives me ads, even though almost subscribe for premium subscriber, whatever it does is still get ads. And I'm not interested in Joe Rogan's ads, Mike Dell: I'm not gonna gotta pay Joe, though. So they have to do something. Well, but you Adam Curry: had, something has to give, because the system is broken, the gatekeepers idea is broken. We broke that it's done.

1:02:16 It's over that that's not going to, you know, this is nonlinear media. I read by heard on pod news that now what is it to audio boom, we have 1 billion impressions. Well, there goes your CPM rate. Yeah, yeah, hello, that's obvious. Todd Cochran: I think you're on this stuff that I'm gonna have to grind to that, you know Adam Curry: what, I'll tell you something. And I have enough shows that I could do this with, I'd be very interested in giving it a shot that I'd be interested in. And yeah, I'll go to New York with you. And I'll go in front of up to one trip in front of the media buyers. And if we can really show an example of how it would work. You know, of course, the CPM rate would have to be outrageous. That's right. And it will have to send value back to the people who are self identifying that I think there's something there, I really do. That's if people know that I am, because already, that's a lot of podcasts, I don't want that ad, I don't want that. I don't want that. So if I'm in charge of selecting the ads, just as I'm in charge of my topics, or whatever else, and people trust me, they're listening to me for that reason. And if they say, I love you out on what I don't want to hear it, then don't attribute yourself you won't get you won't hear anything. But if you do, then you're gonna get the ad, and you're gonna get a token of appreciation back, we're gonna send some value back for you. Thank you for being a part of the system.

1:03:38 Todd Cochran: It's it's definitely something that's got me thinking here. So yeah, Dave Jones: you're right, Todd, but because the attribution piece, that attribution piece tells me that there's a problem. The fact that everybody is now that was at BetterHelp, is now forcing all all their people to use a tracking pixel. You know, this is becoming more of a thing, we hear more and more shows talking about how their advertiser reached out and told them they want them to start using track tracking pixel Adam Curry: and Dave, check it out. With value for value, you just add a split to the advertiser, they can track it, then there's no third party. It's it's the listener determines. Everybody knows the people who are involved in in the in the agreement, it's an open agreement Dave Jones: and pixel it's a tracking Satoshi it's a it's a track oshi Todd Cochran: backtracks once trucks he goes, that's nice. It goes back to one simple thing. It's the problem we've had since the beginning, did they listen? Because we don't have the clients I don't that's all it is. That's what they're trying to get the answer did that person Adam Curry: and would also removed the data brokers because you know, what people really want is that why do they want your IP address? That's very, we know what curry does look at all this traffic that he's looking at what he's doing. Oh, See what he does? Oh, he, he sends traffic to American express.com Oh, this is where guy now, Mike Dell: things get things get big enough though even that much

1:05:11 data who's gonna sift through all that stuff? Adam Curry: Well, the Oracle, they have a whole business and they have a whole business doing that they sell your time and time again, Dave Jones: I'll tell you exactly where it gets super creepy for me in we had a local, we had a local special election because the house the Alabama State House and see that from my district that I live in, the guy got kicked out for corruption. So they had a special election. And it was between two people. And the that now the district that I live in, is the most crazy drone district you've ever seen in your life? I mean, it looks like, you know, it looks like a spiral graph. It is crazy all over the place. It makes no sense. So the only way that you would determine. So I'm watching YouTube and watching a YouTube video on my phone. And I started getting ads for one of the candidates from House District 55. Which is my district. The only way that you would know that, that I should get that ad is if you know how your mind Xact if you know my exact house address this tied to my IP address at that moment, and Adam Curry: that's so that's so well known Dave. Yeah, no.

1:06:33 Dave Jones: And so I'm like, but it's most of the time you get like local ads for car dealerships and things like this. And it doesn't really, it doesn't show you how creepy the tracking is. But then every now and then you'll get something like that. And you're like, oh my god, they know exactly who I am and where I live. Yeah, like the Todd Cochran: day that it creeps you out day they know who and a household listen to an ad. Okay, so that's, that's, that's the crazy part. But I saw some demos before that. I mean, really, this is why we are hardcore privacy, blueberry, I would never employ any of that.

1:07:13 Mike Dell: That's so creepy. There's a new version of Wi Fi, where they're able to map out the inside of your house, using your Wi Fi router. Adam Curry: Yeah, exactly. See where you're walking? Yeah. Well, no, you need what you need as an anchor club advertiser to do this, you know, fast moving consumer goods type type deal. And someone who's willing to try it with you, you could, I guess probably the smartest way to do it is to be nice to team up with an advertising agency and make it there when you know, cut them in for their for their 15% or whatever it is, you know, their their media buy fee. But I think there's I've been in this business. And I understand I understand it. And I also understand that there is a real need for first of all this a desirable audience is it just is it you could think about it, you can say, how about this, along with my payment record, I'm gonna leave that open for Alex guys to develop. It would say I'm interested in political ads. I'm interested in food ads, you know, you could tick some boxes, use the Google topics thing, whatever. It's Dave Jones: a good list, Adam Curry: you can use all of that it's time. The only problem here is we're treating our listeners are our troops and customers as dirt as stupid dirt like you don't count Shut up.

1:08:42 You're not supposed to know what we're doing with you. Ah, we're gonna throw this in your face. You're stupid dirt. We don't care about you. And if you because people are smart people like oh, right, you know, hey, look, give me a little bit of value back for letting you this has always been the dream, opt in, it'd be great. Okay. I mean, I've heard all of these, there's been so many different versions of this, but we actually have one. And we have, you know, 16,000 feeds that are using it. And I would presume most of them are active. So, let's just do times 10. Just to make it simple. That's how many listeners there are. It's probably a lot more than if people have the opportunity to opt into something and I get 10x on my SAT that I send or whatever it is. I think I think people would be amenable to it because they people want to learn things they really do and you wouldn't have to be so insulting with your ads either.

1:09:39 Dave Jones: Okay, I'm I'm allowed to talk about YouTube retards. Not at this hour. I'm going to toss this as an ally. Adam Curry: Let me just answer one thing Ice Cube soup. It's less creepy because they don't have your IP address. They only have what you just give them. Well let me spin on a lightning payment is an animus there's no way to track where that came from. So it turns the creepy upside down. Go ahead, Dave. Dave Jones: So I still just don't think that YouTube is a profitable company. I'm with you. And I don't think they're profitable. I think they make tons of revenue. And I don't, I don't see that they've made it. If they've made any profit it has, it's so small that they're not willing to talk about it publicly, because they don't release the numbers. And if that's the, if that's true, then there that is the largest walled garden of digital advertising that exists. It is a completely captured platform, it has no competitor, YouTube, on the video side of things is it has no competition. And if they can't even make a decent profit or any profit at all, then this is not this is not a this is not a workable system. Now their overhead Adam Curry: is huge. The overhead is huge. And you know, you have to just the ingest, and the transcoding of all those cat videos. But even then, it's you know, think about it just think about, think about the Lightning Network, just as an opt in identification system. And who said this, Spencer says his

1:11:14 people love getting 14 SATs a day from fountain when they don't get it. They're all up in the telegram screeching about it. Yeah. People like getting stuff for free. You know, that one of the the most tried and trued ways of getting someone to respond to a piece of mail you get in the mailbox, if someone says here's $1. And they put $1 bill in there, it works. It's still working radio Mike Dell: stat system. Adam Curry: The river, yeah. Yeah, for the Arbitron ratings. But what's beautiful is there are tons of SDKs. There's all kinds of, there's all kinds of programming bits and bobs around for anybody to implement this into any system, any system. And then, you know, people can maintain their own wallet, they can maintain, you know, and it can just be an app means it maybe it's just the advertising app, you know, all of this stuff is totally possible. If we, if we take it, if we look at the value for value as a identification mechanism, or an opt in mechanism for a second instead of as, as a payment mechanism. The thing I see it, Todd Cochran: you know, I the company that shall be not named and you know, they're raising their prices for ad free. Yeah.

1:12:35 And that's going global. At the same time. You know, I know Adam, you can roll your eyes on some of this, but the AI search is going to change Google's complete model on display advertising, and Adam Curry: they're gonna lose more money, they're gonna lose more money, because it's very expensive to have everybody using that kind of CPU power. Todd Cochran: And at the same time, I'm afraid those of us that have our own dot coms or FB work that much harder to be to be found, because I think searches is about to be completely destroyed. Now may Adam Curry: ask your question about this. Do you really believe most people find podcasts because of a search? Todd Cochran: Do well, we know that we know that Adam Curry: what's not What do you know what? What is? So it's, it's definitely Todd Cochran: not number one. It's, you know, it's me telling my friend about podcasting. 2.0 Yes, but what happens, and I can only use my show my tech show as a as the example. I pick up of a percentage of people that come to the website, because they have landed there because I've optimized the search results, and being able to be from my episodes for that episode be found. But again, it's it's a long term gameplay, it's it's like, it's not the 1% No, not at all.

1:13:49 Adam Curry: It's not the most. This is why, and let's go right back to pod roll. Let's go right back to remote items to the interconnected RSS. Web of content that Dave is baking up API's for. This is the future of discovery. The discovery is I heard it on a podcast. This is a piece from a podcast, my app lets me tap in. This is the best place to discover stuff. And it's not just search. It comes from recommendations, it comes from linked content, the way the web has always worked. That's, that's what is the discovery mechanism. Todd Cochran: Anytime I recommend a show in my podcast, you know, I have audience members say hey, thanks for the recommendation. So it's same thing with the pod roll if I if I had 10 shows I said these the shows that I listened to that I love. If my audience loves and trust me, they're gonna go try a few of them.

1:14:42 Adam Curry: Allow me to give everybody an example. I was listening to my buddy Cody. And he's tied into the music scene in a way I had no idea I thought he was you know, kind of a rock popular rock guy, but he seems to be very clued in and He plays a song I'm like this is a great song. You know what, I'm going to play it for y'all right now with a value time split watch it show up in the chat room boost them vertigo kid very appropriately titled pirate radio it's dance break on podcasting 2.0.

1:16:42 Todd Cochran: Candles Unknown: in the show?

1:19:41 Adam Curry: lot of booths thanks everybody. Vertigo kid pirate radio just to prove we can still put something on the top of the charts Dave Jones: on the top but what do we have top Adam Curry: 175 to 142 today top 140 Does it update every minute? How often does it update? Our Oh, every hour? Okay, yeah. Dave Jones: I've got a whole box of butterfly bandages and smelling salts here. So I may have showed up with these because I thought we were going to talk about alternate the alternate feed alternate enclosure. I'm Adam Curry: sorry, I you know, I, I here's the gavel. Okay, go ahead.

1:20:24 Dave Jones: So, you've laid down the the gauntlet, Todd said, alternate enclosure? Hell no. The the, but there's, there's decent discussion about. So your your, I will let you have opening comments. To say why you think this is a no, a no, no do Todd Cochran: so it's simple. I understand the reason that you did alternate enclosure, I understand completely understand the argument. But we have trained podcasters for 19 years, to ensure that they have a listing on Apple podcasts, or their audio and video podcasts that they have to have to RSS feeds. And no matter hate to say it, no matter what we do, it'll be a cold day in hell, before Apple will implement alternate enclosures. So we have a simple fix. Our and Mike actually came up with this idea, just allow us to add a remote item that is an alternate enclosure as an alternative. For those of us that are not going to implement alternate clicks, what will happen is if if I tell podcaster today, okay, so you got an audio podcast, you got a video podcast and in you go ahead and put your media file in for a one you put your media file and three other do all your media data. Now, you need to do that work twice. By

1:21:57 putting it for your audio feed, you need to put your video feed and for your video feed you need to put your audio con, it's very It just adds work, where I can haven't set a remote item one time they're done. And from that point forward, you will know that geek News Central has a video feed on this other feed without me ever having to do double the work and do double the posting because I'm going to do I may continue to post my episodes the way they are now. So that they can be compatible with all the non podcasting 2.0 stuff. I understand what podcasting 2.0 So we can do that we can have the best of both worlds and all it takes is a remote item saying alternate enclosure, boom, we're done.

1:22:42 Mike Dell: And I'm not totally against altered enclosure but, you know, additive to this would be alternate feed that gives you the option to do it alive you know and that's more compatible way. Todd Cochran: Yeah, that's what it should have been alternate feeds excuse me, not alternate enclosure. Adam Curry: Okay, I understand. Now I understand what you're saying. So what you're saying is create two feeds but implemented for podcasting 2.0 apps as a remote item, so people don't have to subscribe to something additionally, they can select that the app would know and would select it internally, Todd Cochran: it would without having to actually do the alternate enclosure because we're going to just continue to do enclosures like they've always ever been. It was it was decided a long, long, long long time ago that there would not be two enclosures in a single feed I know things change podcasting 2.0 has changed that. But if I can have a podcast alternate feed and the remote item, you'll know what my alternate beat is Nick could only it could also be lower bandwidth, alternate language, video, whatever we want to come up with.

1:23:45 Adam Curry: You know, I was I was very anti your thinking and but now I understand what you're saying is like give the the two point the modern apps, the capability to make the switch with the existing subscription by just saying Oh, check it out. There's an alternate there's a remote item here, this is for video. Todd Cochran: And it will allow the podcasting 2.0 apps to see those of us that just stay on the one enclosure per deed model. That ability to say okay, this show has five extra alternate beans. Dave Jones: Okay, let me okay, let me let me ask questions. Just q&a. So, this really your main concern is alternate and closure as a video audio mix. You're I'm assuming that you're not opposed to alternate enclosure for those specific use cases where people need a lower bandwidth version of the same media type. So you would have the standard you know 96 or 128k. mp3 delivered through the enclosure and then possibly inserting like a Every low bit rate source for like, chi iOS phones or something like that as odd as an alternate audio downgrade, so to speak.

1:25:11 Todd Cochran: Now, that at all? Mike Dell: Yeah, there's no reason why we can't have both. That's the thing. Adam Curry: You want to keep your existing customers who have two separate feeds, and you want to keep them that way, because you've trained them that way. And I presume you're also getting paid for two accounts. Maybe I'm wrong. Mike Dell: You're not all hosting with us. But yeah, Adam Curry: okay. All right. Well, that's understandable. And I honestly sounds like a pretty good use of remote item. Dave Jones: Well, okay, so the question to the is this a problem that can be solved with just software so that somebody uploads? A, they have their audio feed, they have their video feed, just in the audio feed, as when they post to the video feed? The audio of the two can cross pollinate? enclosures?

1:26:02 Yes, yeah. Mike Dell: Well, we do that. Together. We do that with power press already. You can have one blog post, and put as many media files in different channels, which is different feeds as you want. Okay, so it keeps the workload down when you're doing audio video, the same show, Adam Curry: right, so remote item on the video feed can point to the audio feed Dave? Sure. Mike Dell: And vice versa. Dave Jones: Right, I guess what I'm saying is if the alternate if adding a video source to the audio feed, is is more work? Could you take away the work? By doing it for them when they do when they're already doing the work?

1:26:48 Todd Cochran: Yeah, well, what will happen is, is again, this will be a set and forget, we'll just say to Hey, do you want your video feed to be a remote item in your audio feed, and I'll click the button one time and what we'll include it forevermore, and it'll just happen when they publish the episode shows like Mike said, when people at least in our system, when they published, when I push publish an episode of Geek News Central, I do one blog post, but there's two feeds tied to the blog. So it's Adam Curry: really it's really using a modern system to fix a legacy problem. Because there's already so many video feeds that people have created. In addition, I presume, in addition to their audio feed. So you implement the ultimate enclosure, which will be the way for the way forward personally, I think, but you can also do it this way.

1:27:41 Todd Cochran: Yeah, there's no item would be for folks like us that don't want to retrain our audience. And again, the and then that will allow the apps to pick either or, Mike Dell: then in theory, you could have it so that it does both. Adam Curry: That's what I'm saying. Yeah, it can, it can be either been an alternate enclosure, or it can be a remote item, alternate feed, which is video or audio or Mike Dell: all those antique apps working, you know, backwards compatibility. Dave Jones: So there's, you did not propose an actual tag spec. You just proposed it as an idea. Yeah. So Mike Dell: it's an idea. I'm not a bride a dove. So I Dave Jones: went, you know, I went looking for prior art in this pod in a pod love has an alternate feed specification going back to like 2012. It uses the atom link thing, which is, you know, they're gonna get pissed off, because we already were in swap chapters on him.

1:28:37 Todd Cochran: But Davey, you're already re going to revise remote items so that anything in the remote item is going to have a type. So why don't you just make this a new type gear that goes along with that revision? Dave Jones: Yeah, and I'm just, I'm just thinking, I would read I think long term, looking at in the future, and importing the atom namespace into the unknown. It's done a lot. But, you know, the whole, the whole goal for the podcast namespace is to get is to have something that's holistic and self contained. You know, I hate to bring in a spec and say, Okay, well, yeah. Okay, now go get the Adam namespace and do it this way. Like, this just doesn't seem to be there doesn't seem to be fitting this and I'm not seeing this alternate feed used very much.

1:29:26 Same this this goes back to potluck chapters. Now, I love those. I mean, I really love what pod love does, except, you know, the chapter spec that they that they invent, it just never got any traction. And it's the same it seems to be the same thing with their alternate feeds back and it's like Mike Dell: our namespace didn't get a whole lot of traction either other than amongst Yeah, yeah, Adam Curry: there's one reason why you know who your daddy is. I mean, that's why you got to know your daddy. Dave Jones: So if you get some, I'm just thinking, you know, I don't want to just willy nilly Throw away prior art. But there just doesn't seem to if it's not used, I don't see that as very much of a big deal.

1:30:08 Todd Cochran: James is throwing his headset down right now. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't get rid of all no closure. No, no, of course not. No, Adam Curry: I think this is. But I love this idea because it's a complete valid use of the remote item, which is really from for me, the remote item is the future of RSS, podcasting, and RSS in general, the remote item is critical, critical to everything we're going to do moving forward. It's just, it's beautiful. You know, once we get the tools in, where I mean, even playing a clip from we talk about it, but we don't actually have an interface or anything. If I play a clip from a different podcast, boom, remote item, all of this stuff should should be, it should be part of our normal workflow. And crickets, Todd Cochran: you know, the remote item, that remote item piece, really, I made my whole dev team listen to the last podcasting to Pinocchio from about the 45 minute mark, because, people but yeah, you guys, Mike Dell: you know, you don't like namespace, namespace? You beautifully Todd Cochran: explained. Me? Somehow I'm given feedback today. I don't know what's going on. I'm gonna have to check the knobs. It basically is a I think it is I think this remote item is the key to a lot of stuff.

1:31:30 Dave Jones: It finally brings in links. Yeah, which, which is what makes the web the web and what makes it decentralized. Because if you don't have linkage between between different pieces of content, then you don't have you don't have a truly decentralized way to crawl from one place to another. So the remote Adam just is it allows you to do what the web's done is it links things together. So like, I heard James on pod news, weekly review, asking, what is, you know, what's the point of putting the data and say it that way? Um, he said it better than that. But he didn't understand necessarily why we were putting the value time splits in the API responses. And it's for this reason is because once you see it, now you have linkage. So I can say, okay, here is a value.

1:32:26 Here's eight, a feed that also has links to other feeds the same things is the same thing with POD roll. Yeah, here's a feed that now links to other feeds. When you when you begin to build this web Oh, man showed? Yeah, like now you've got real. So the whole reason you can't do proper podcast, excuse me proper searching and podcast is because so Google PageRank. Google PageRank is built on inbound links. That's always been the core of PageRank is you can look at how many links point to to a source to determine some desert term, it's a measure of its popularity or its relevance. Pocket, there's no way to do that in podcasting. There's no there's not. But now you can if you have remote items, you can have this notion of inbound links. If if 100 podcasts reference, a remote item pointing to new media show, well, then that's a really good indicator that there's something going on and new media show that should up its game in the Discovery Trail.

1:33:37 Todd Cochran: If you go back to the blog days, we all had blog roles on her website, because it's the folks that we read. And that was our that was our signal that we thought this is a good source of content, always. inbound links to Mike Dell: stuff we liked Adam Curry: is the is the current implementation. Buzzsprout is doing a pod roll. They're doing that as a remote item Dave? Remote item type equals pod roll. Dave Jones: Yeah, it was it's the pod roll tag with the remote item as a child. Yeah. Okay. Todd Cochran: All right. And I like what they did over there, if you went look at their interface, the page and how they're displaying that to listeners, and then you know, that's the first step. And then the apps are going to be able to surface that to listeners as well within the app, keeping them in the app. This is it's this is beautiful. There's gonna be Adam Curry: a developer out there who's going to create the pod browser, even though I hate to put your word pod but pod browser is going to be an app where you just go from one to the next from a song to this to that to a lecture to whatever to a book. I can, you know, we need the hosting companies to add the interfaces, but we'll get there.

1:34:39 Dave Jones: Yeah, we'll get there. Mike Dell: But I think a lot of this is, you know, going to get away from apps in general, but you know, there's things get cranked down tighter and tighter. It's gonna move a lot of this stuff's gonna move to the just the plain old web. You know, as far as Todd Cochran: our PWA is Mike Dell: PWA To You know, because at some point, you know, Apple's gonna say, well, we don't like, x or whatever, and they're out of the app store. Dave Jones: Yeah. Well, yeah, well, that yeah, that's that's in that, you know, we are inevitable. We gotta you know what, what we got from Mitch this past week was that some was the podcast or had complained to Apple's App Store, about Mitch having one of their podcasts on his app. Like they didn't go throughout, you know, they they complained to app review or not.

1:35:38 Yeah, yeah. And so they and then Apple reached out to Mitch and was like, Hey, we got a complaint that you have unauthorized content on your app. And it was a big, it was a big pain in the butt. Adam Curry: Yeah. By the way, Andrew Gromit. This is for you, brother. There's your project. The pod, pod browser. Good idea. PWA pod browser, pod attitude. Todd Cochran: There's a product we offer to our podcasters. It's called Quick Links. And it's basically the ability for them to kind of have a link tree type of page just kind of shows up other stuff. We're going to add pod roll to that in various different places within the platform. Oh, yeah.

1:36:19 Adam Curry: I'm sure pod page will roll it out. Sure. The this is good stuff. I don't know where to go from here. So we thank some people because I've just been getting lots and lots and lots of booster grams. I want to give a couple of top 2100 SATs from Macintosh. Can I throw something out? Please? No. And the next boost I'm sorry. As a podcaster an avid listener, I want one thing to whomever needs to hear this app dev app developers, I believe stop the futzing around, implement cross app comments. The other podcast 2.0 Abs are not your enemy. If anyone has an enemy it is Apple and Spotify and such it will make a huge difference in developing communities and creating a better experience. I have no interest in hacks to make this stuff work as Nike says just do it. Thanks, Macintosh. There's your listener feedback. Thank you Macintosh 10,000 SATs from Sam Sethi coming through on that pod fans.

1:37:16 Loving this. Loving this alternate enclosure chat. We already support the alternate enclosure and pod fans and support video but remote item is good to support legacy feeds and and it's going to be the way forward as we just discussed. Salty crayon freedom boost 1776 boosting is loving. Yes it is. Another 10,000 from Sam Ceci Sam Sethi pod fans. Is your advertisement from Sam Sethi for today. Pod fans was the first to support the pod roll and we have created an admin for creators to build their own pod roll while we wait for host to catch up indeed. Very good. big proponent of the pod roll 20,000 SATs from Absa verdient we're all pirates. Yes, thank you. I was for the pirate song. And then we have Max space Luke 50,000 SATs this is this is my second booster Graham Ever After sending one to Chris at Linux unplugged on the Jupiter broadcasting network from Chris's unfilter show and did Chris hit me in the mouth on unfiltered way out as a place we could go now that unfilter was no more I'm a total fanboy for no agenda. And now of course that leads to podcasting 2.0 and Mo facts and boosted Graham both thanks for you all Adam, David, the whole team do for everybody that what you do for everybody day in day out? Go podcasting.

1:38:39 Thank you. Sam Sethi is feeling flushed today. Another 10,000. No tracking set needed. We have time listed, percent completed and value paid. The advertiser puts in a budget and the negative set flows goes from the advertiser to the listener. We already do this with trailers. Yeah, there's pod fans specific to pod fans. Yeah, any app can do this. I just think we're thinking more of it on a bigger basis. But Sam, another 10,000. We'll take as many 10,000 sat booster grants from us. You want Sam? I'll keep reading them. Adam, we have created that ad model. Do you want to demo we already we are ready to release it. We will use negative SATs with value time splits to pay users to listen to ads and split the payment to podcast creators.

1:39:26 If you skip you get nothing. Yeah. Yes. And I'd love to see if it works. Because then we can do it from a more decentralized way and not just one app that does I think that's perfect, unless I'm misunderstanding and interesting to the value times that you put you put that in on top of the feed. We'll have to get some information from Sam. Dave Jones: Yeah, we need Sam back on the show anyway, yeah, Adam Curry: we do. We do. If he but then you know he'll have two booths during his own show otherwise we know we don't have the income. We guess it's better than I'm Sam on remote taking a nice row of ducks 22,222 from salty cray on how to pod sage slash pod father putting together a value for value music podcast is a lot of fun and a lot of work but I'm having a blast doing it. I was able to use the magic wallet switching technology with RSS blue for my first show. I found out from Dobby Das, I was the first person to use it in that way. I love it. Thanks for putting in all the backend work so we can create these podcasts and it's the upbeats podcast. Well Don't thank us ma'am. There's there's a whole crew of gypsies out there who are responsible for this.

1:40:41 Dave Jones: And we can say that we've been given authors we have yes from the actual jibs from the Adam Curry: actual gypsy says it's okay. Eric p p 33,333. We have su pipe pipe CD 4444 sets freedom eagles. Sir TJ the wrathful with 1953 Guru is great, please you want to see yes, he's on podcast guru. No bad signal for any apps for me today. They normally work in pod verse and Guru and addicts. And I just got it to if Guru can make it so I can share playlists and it controls like shuffle and repeat for all when music is playing. Oh baby, go podcasting. Alright, stay off the pipe. TJ thanks 71 from anonymous using pod verse love in the boardroom.

1:41:32 And I think that's it. That's what we have so far. You want to read what we have. What's coming during the week Dave? Dave Jones: Dow it gets pay pals in this one ought to be familiar. Because it's $250 from blueberry podcasting our very own 20 Adam Curry: is blades on am Paula thank you. Blueberry. Podcasting. Thank you. Thank you fellas. Thank you guys. It's really good Todd Cochran: to hit your API more we need to send you some money. Dave Jones: My API get it we've got to speak the devil Franco Celerio we talked about gas medic earlier $100 back Adam Curry: thank you Franco supporting everything. We support each other. I love it.

1:42:20 Dave Jones: And we've got a $25 debt no note between $5 donation from Brian Mosier. I don't know who that is. So thank you, Brian. Adam Curry: We appreciate it. Dave Jones: Brian, appreciate that. You got to note shoot me one more we did get some boosts we got 10,000 sets from Star I think star is associated with the web's podcast Right. to I think that's I think that's you know Whitney Webb Adam Curry: oh sorry. Yeah, she's Whitney Webb Yeah, she produces Yes. Okay. Yeah, good 1000 Dave Jones: says from store said Table of Contents sanity restored laws. Adam Curry: Yeah, I noticed a number of apps actually handled Table of Contents properly.

1:43:04 Dave Jones: Oh, yeah. Those it's it's happening. Yeah. Pod father asks and people give you Adam Curry: Well, I only got one message this week from one person who said chapters are messed up that's a good sign. But yeah, they sent me a screenshot I don't know what the app to show what app is it showing what app that is so we can work on it. Thank you. Thank you Dev is perfect. I love it Dave Jones: up in 1984 4000 says two fountains that being able to remove booths from Chapter image would be a welcome feature I mainly listen to booster green ball either while at work or when driving if I hear an artist like I like I just screenshot the chapter art and then look them up later my free time. Oh that's a good idea.

1:43:47 Adam Curry: Well right now depending on the app you use, you can just go into the podcast guru it's the V for V logo it gives you all the songs right there so you can play them boost them screen them I think save them soon fountain does this that's the way to go. Yeah, it saves your screenshot Dave Jones: Jean Everett 3333 through fountain he says got a hard agree I don't want anything but the podcast are displayed I really do not like the booths popping up in place of art cover well, so here's we have talked about this gene been and Franco had a discussion on email that I was included in about Adam Curry: back back channeling Dave Jones: back you know Jean beanies back Chandler you back channeling from the from the lander, Jimmy Carter. So, he's he said, if you have a chapter that has an image, this table of contents equals false. Do you still include The chapter title along with displaying the chapter or do you just display the current chapter title? Should the titled also be hidden? If it's Table of Contents faults?

1:45:15 Adam Curry: Oh, good question, I Dave Jones: guess. And I'm not talking about in the chapter list I'm gonna be played on the display. Hmm. And I kind of think it should because you may it may be a link but that's but I think that's a point of clarification that we need people to Adam Curry: Dred Scott literally just a yes no. What is that? He says he's the chapter title should be easy. Yes. No. chapter title should be shown. I think the chapter title. So if it's a boost, should it? Should it have a chapter title if it's not a TOC? Dave Jones: Well, I'm gonna say this. I mean, Dred Scott is the previous chapter Meister Yeah, he's the chief chapter architect. And I mean, when he speaks, we listen that that counts for much weight so I'm gonna say yes, no.

1:46:12 Adam Curry: If TOC false chapter title and link need to be shown. He does. Yeah, okay. Okay. All right. All right. Well, there you go. What IMHO it is your H O. U R. H O chapter Whoa it's your Dave Jones: it's your it's just your Oh Your opinion is Oh, Chapter ho Great show the cert okay sir truck driver 3333 through fountain says if you look at the times when booths come in after show is uploaded you can use that info to see when listeners actually listened assuming they boost while listening that's trackable info for listener demographics it absolutely yes. And well anonymized. Be mozzie Brian mozzie says 44/44 of fountain he says don't love the boost images but don't hate them. Talk the toggling would be appreciated, or at least reduced duration agree 6969 from ASA doesn't he bought verse. Hey, Adam. Okay, drunk drink. Quick drunk a gram asking, what is V for Vela?

1:47:17 Adam Curry: gotta read a drunk. Drunk. Dave Jones: Yeah. Have the as had been my people have said to value splits for covers samples. Are we still the persecuted minority doomed to be mocked by the people who would keep us on our knees? Adam Curry: What is he asking? Dave Jones: I don't know. He said drunker Graham. Adam Curry: Thanks for more, do more. Drink more. Send more. Dave Jones: Roy ROI ROI is bad. Roi. scheinfeld Adam Curry: ROI. There you go. What does ROI say? Dave Jones: 543213. Bracy. Just says Dave, please check your telegram. Adam Curry: That's the way that's the way to get our attention. Dave Jones: That's a way to get a boost. This is a good boost strategy. Just don't ever check my email or telegram. And then make people boosts me to promote me to check it. I Adam Curry: had a quick back and forth with Roy. And they're starting on wallet switching technology for the breeze app next week. Sweet. Yes. Nice. Nice. I'm very appreciative of that. Because, you know, they're focusing much more on being an SDK company. And I said, Hey, man, just so you know, I use the breeze app as my actual payment app. That's my app. So I love it. And I'd love to be able to still listen to podcasts on it with music. It's because I got a lot of dough sitting in my wallet there. Want to give it away.

1:48:39 Dave Jones: But to do dope, Jean been 2020 to speak of the devil cast ematic he says do any app support playing any of the list of medium feeds full of remote items yet? AKA feeds like you described for Ainsley? I don't think I'm going to assume that's one of Stephen B's apps does because his apps do everything so but he would have to tell us which one I'm thinking LNBs probably does. But Stephen will Adam Curry: that's an app I actually use me to I mean I just pop it open and just hit play on some top item and it responds beautifully again, I see a lot of disconnects from from Aldi which sucks because you know, like, oh, how long has it been disconnected? You know?

1:49:29 Dave Jones: And then maybe the nature of PW A's two. Adam Curry: All right, we need some info on that. Yeah, Dave Jones: the anonymous 5000 SATs through pod verse. Add luchar is the stumbling block, though does cast. But add luchar is the stumbling block thou dost cast before thy brother when thou does fail to return value for his works. Calculations 3333 Adam Curry: No false idols here. A Dave Jones: mere mortals podcast or buddy Karen 2020 through fountain nice, thank you. Thanks for the chat tips very helpful. I've also been slightly disappointed with Buzzsprout adoption of new tags, even ones they asked for aka pod roll.

1:50:13 Well, they fixed it. They do. And that problem is solved that's the whole reason I moved my shows to them was for the exciting new things. The same reason I'm now moving Show's over to blueberry. Viva tags. Adam Curry: Viva la tags Dave Jones: as I've had beers with Tom and he said they've got they've been backed up with a big projects. I think they're gonna think they're gonna start coming out soon. Cool. Yeah. Let's see we got 5150 from Orange frog. Did you get down? non-stories again? Adam Curry: I've seen orange frog Dave Jones: bounced into breeze again for this past week's listening time. Always a delight to jump into different podcast apps. Thanks. Yeah, yeah, it's Adam Curry: a great app.

1:50:59 Dave Jones: Oak man delimiter comma street blogger 30 215 through fountain. He says Howdy, Dave and Adam. Please invite your listeners to visit my blog at www dot CSB dot lol for my cartoons with buffoons into follow me on Twitter slash x et et Cie SB just three letters C S and B. I will follow back yo Adam Curry: sbsp Yo, yo back at you, brother. Thank you Dave Jones: we we got some monthlies thanks. Call Mr. Bulger cousin mother's you got to pay dragon cat was it $5 That you had Pharaoh at $22.20. We've got a Cameron rose at $25. Thank you. A Scott Jalbert at $12. And Speak of the devil Brendan at pod pod page $25. New media that's Marcus lindskog at $1.

1:51:51 And Mark Graham was $1. And that's our group. Adam Curry: Oh, thank you all so much value for value is the name of the game. If you want to learn more about add value for value dot info value number four value dot info. It even has some handy guides there. If you want to learn about it. We appreciate everything that you send us it keeps the machine running it keeps a nice, a nice buffer for us in case we hit some harder times so we can keep everything running. Keep the podcast index alive. And of course, everything that we have in Satoshis goes on to the node and we use that for liquidity for anybody who needs it just hit me up. Adam mccurry.com or Adam at podcast index dot social. And if you want to give us some Fiat fun coupons always appreciated as well go to podcast index.org down at the bottom. Big red buttons one for tally coin. I know we we did it seems like there was another tally coin that came in on the last show. Because one was 95,564 from chimp. And then there was a 211,273 from anonymous. Oh, I don't think we mentioned the anonymous. Oh, thank you for that.

1:52:55 Mike Dell: Thank you latterly Anonymous is from pod vs. Because every time it disconnects, you got to put your name in there again. Adam Curry: I was that true? Yeah. That's Mike Dell: earlier that was Adam Curry: oh, I didn't know that. Oh, interesting. Dave Jones: Bug. I bet Mitchell fix. Go. Yeah. Adam Curry: I love Mitch is like, hey, you know what, when did this happen? When did we do this? He's been so busy. It was dinging is that you Todd? Who's dinging? Todd Cochran: I'm sorry. Adam Curry: All right. You've been craquelin and all kinds of there's something weird with your your setup, which is odd. I'm not sure. Well, When Dave Jones: is Halloween? Mike Dell: Not how was a full moon a couple of days ago.

1:53:37 Adam Curry: That'll do it every single time. So anything you guys want to share with us before we before we leave? And by the way, thank you for being here in in the boardroom. We always appreciate you here. Mike Dell: Yeah, my pleasure. For sure. Todd Cochran: We got one thing you know, Dave, last week or week before he said there was you aren't ready to go to war. I think what we need to do is battle armor up because Nick Adams, right, you know, every time and I'm gonna say it. So get your boost ready? Anytime someone says they have a YouTube podcast boost, you immediately asked them either in a comment or wherever he says, Okay, where can I find you on a podcast app?

1:54:19 And if they look at you weird, then say, Hey, I'm not going to listen to your show until you're in a podcast app. And and maybe we'll get these folks over some time to understand that they need an RSS feed. Oh, good. And I've been telling my audience the same thing. You know, I actually said my auntie to someone tells you they've got a podcast on the name that won't be named. Ask them if that you know if they're on a podcast app because you want to subscribe. And if they don't then maybe at least trigger them to say oh, what is this RSS thing? So maybe we can do it subtly without having to beat them over the head with a hammer. Dave Jones: I think you're I think you're right. Because I mean that Here's the whole thing. The whole thing is, I'm of the opinion that the whole YouTube thing in general is a scam cooked up by the by the PSE. I agree because the the whole, you read these, read these studies, and they say, YouTube is the biggest app for podcasts for people listening to podcasts. And then you read the next study that says, we know how many podcasts how many popular podcasts are on YouTube, like five. Now, these obviously don't mesh. So somebody's lying here. Because if you can't find any of your podcasts on YouTube, but your YouTube is the biggest thing for podcasting, I'm just gonna have to call bullshit on that.

1:55:45 Mike Dell: The average person doesn't know the difference. Today, I was physical therapy. And I, you know, I told him, you know, he asked me what I do for a living. It's I worked for a podcast company. Oh, I watch a lot of podcasts. And I know he wasn't talking about, you know, wasn't talking about an actual RSS feed video. Todd Cochran: So I follow a couple of YouTube channels that have so called podcast and I've sent them a note said, Hey, I can't find you on my podcast app where you guys had and they they finally responsive. What do you mean? And I told him so it's again, I think it's a crater site it's a little education listeners are gonna do with listeners are going to do But may we get the the what I would call from a white term Akamai, the smart listeners to be able to start to help us in this crusade?

1:56:33 Dave Jones: And let me tell you why. Let me tell you tell you why that matters. in the broader sense for for for things like this show and for the podcast community is that these studies that are show that are trying to conflate YouTube with podcasting, though, they be sure the listeners are going to do what they're going to do. But these studies are aimed at pot the podcast, quote unquote, industry. Yes. And it is it is convincing podcasters of something that is not accurate. It's telling a lie to the people who are actually doing podcasting. No other industry does this. No other industry tries to convince its members that the thing that they are is not what they are. And we listen, this doesn't work, Adam Curry: except in the pharma industry.

1:57:33 Todd Cochran: We should not be fooled, we should not be fooled, they are trying to lock us back into walled gardens. I have to remember that Adam Curry: all right. So here's my recommendation. Stop talking about them. Stop talking about this only behooves them this is the divide and conquer strategy which is as old as the road to Rome. Stop talking about them. That's it You know you want to talk about that. I've nothing to say the here's my i This is my podcast app. This is what I use. This is what I like about it. And here's the other podcast apps I use as the podcast industrial complex is designed to have you Todd specifically you talk about this stuff. And the more you talk about it the more interest there is Todd Cochran: no I definitely have been super positive to help that.

1:58:25 Adam Curry: But it doesn't Alright, Thank you Mitch D for 5000 SATs. He says anonymous bugs should be fixed in the next release been talking with CSP about it's 7777 from Mike Newman, who sent us a Tod you to boost our morale. And then we got to 23,456 satoshi 23456 Was that you again Mike says boosting MC boost boost armor up Mike Dell: that wasn't me. Oh, that's Adam Curry: injured. How that doesn't happen often you get armor up to in a row. Well, thank you for anonymous or someone who's who had a name but the budget to anonymous. Just and there's Dred Scott 23456 Dang it pod verse change my boost MC boost. donemus. There you go. He's up to 50,000. All right. Hey, we got to stop doing this. People are sending us too many Satoshis. Gentlemen, thank you both very much for being in the board. And we always appreciate you having you here.

1:59:22 And thank you for all that you're doing to move the needle forward. I think you're really smart. Because I know Todd, you had a revelation. This was about a year and a half ago. And I'm very glad you followed your your gut instinct on this. I think it's bids and made a huge difference. And Mike thank you for for the yeoman's job that you do with teaching everybody this all of the individuals who who show up at your door wanting to know which mouse button to click to what is value for value. I know it's not easy. I know it's not easy to export. Alright everybody Thank you everyone in the chat room. Thank you everyone to podcasting next out social, your board meeting.

2:00:05 We will return next week on Friday again if Tiny Tim is alive, we'll see you then everybody. Unknown: You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 to visit podcast index.org For more information do you know who your daddy is?