Episode 124: Undeplatformable

0:00 Adam Curry: podcasting 2.0 March 4 2023 Episode 124 on D flat formable hello everybody welcome to a delayed board meeting of podcasting 2.0 preserving, protecting and extending the open independent podcasting ecosystem that's what we're all about. And we talk about it once a week with everybody in the board meeting everything happening at podcast index.org Of course the podcast namespace and everything at podcast index dot social. I'm Adam curry here in the heart of the tech show country and Alabama. The man who fills up your generator say hello to my friend on the other end. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Dave Jones.

0:41 Unknown: Adam Clark curry. Yes. Dave Jones: Don't for one day. Party. Adam Curry: Why are you being stern with me? You threw out an Adam Clark curry that triggered me right away. Dave Jones: Yeah, no, I knew it would. Adam Curry: David Ashley Jones. Dave Jones: Yes. There's only one I only have one rule and then no part no part long gone. Adam Curry: But we cleaned up. There was only Dame DeLoreans panties apparently around the flagpole. Everything else was clean. We didn't do anything. Anything bad. I'm so sorry. Dave Jones: It was much entertaining. Adam Curry: Oh, well. You heard it while you're at the office listening.

1:21 Dave Jones: I got a bootleg. I got somebody sent me a bootleg. Okay, I Adam Curry: purposely did not record because I didn't want any evidence that we were breaking the law not only breaking the law by playing two and a half hours of licensed music on the stream, but also taking money for it which which is, I think a super violation. Dave Jones: There there is there is a bootleg if you know the right guy down on Fifth Avenue, behind the corner. Adam Curry: Canal Street is what you're talking about Canal Street. Dave Jones: With enough sets you can get a you can get a bootleg for those Adam Curry: who are wondering what we're talking about. Yesterday, we were ready to go for our regular regularly scheduled board meeting time. And well there were two things that happen actually, I now the hill country here in Texas had had a pretty big storm. I have Thursday, Friday and Thursday and Thursday morning was really bad with golf ball sized hail, which sounded great against our metal roof. In the morning, I was crazy. I was I mean the dog was freaked out. I have not seen our dog freaked out by anything. But this freaked her out. And then Friday it just I mean, it really missed Fredericksburg and went right past us. Some prayer was involved, I'm sure. But Dave Jones: yes, diversionary prayer. Yes, I forgot.

2:40 Adam Curry: Yes, but I forgot to add a diversionary tactic for you. And it hit pretty hard. So So now, somewhere down the line, my bandwidth was totally crapping out my upstream was about 500 kilobits per second, which is not the typical upstream. And that just as as I was figuring that out, you know, bringing out different access points. I've gotten, you know, I've got T Mobile Verizon, I have, if all else fails, I've got Starlink, although that does introduce some latency. So we're messing around with that. And then Dave goes, Oh, bad signal. The power went down in the office. What happened there? Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah, that's so yeah, I guess yesterday was a total cluster. I mean, like, I got in the car, even going back before what? What happened with the show, I got in the car, to leave to go to the office for work. And I get a ping on my phone. I look down at the phone and it says, you've got a guest, Mike, Michael and Sam from wave lake at 9am. Oh, right. What?

3:47 None, right? No. 30. And so I get to the office and I emailed them. And I'm like, Adam Curry: and they're always there. We're sitting ready. They got the headphones on everything good. Dave Jones: I was like, Hey, guys, please tell me this was a this was a timezone mix up. And I didn't actually send you a load report. And they were like, No, you send it for nine. I was like, damn it. Adam Curry: How does it? How does that happen? Because you use you know, use Google use your calendar for that. Dave Jones: Now use fast mails, calendar, but it's all through the iPhone. I don't think I've ever messed that up in in a mess. I just totally boned it. I mean, like, it was terrible. And then it turned out it was it was actually good that they didn't, they didn't that we had to move the interview because then all that stuff happened with your bandwidth and then the power went off at work. And so then I was like, I gotta go back. I mean, I gotta get back to the office now.

4:40 Adam Curry: Does it blip or does it fail over nicely to the to the UPS is that handle the switch over to the generator? Dave Jones: Yes, it's same. It's seamless. But see, we have for four reasons. We can't get natural gas. We have diesel generator. And so Adam Curry: you are single handedly responsible for climate change right now. Dave Jones: If I was and I was I was pouring five gallons of climate change into the generator with every jug less than Adam Curry: five gallons of climate change coming right up. That's how they should measure it. Oh my god, yeah, pretty climate change. Dave Jones: And that's the so I got like, the lightning struck the power pole that feeds our building and we have three phase power. So it took one of the lines, it was just gone. I mean, like it just blew the thing off the pole. And Adam Curry: what the whole transformer blew right off the pole.

5:33 Dave Jones: There wasn't a transformer it's like it's like there's it's three phase so you get three lines coming in in one one of the connector lines that go off the main was just gone. And so the power of come they came out Adam Curry: you didn't get your your your gear out and clamp in the pole and reconnect that thing. Dave Jones: I don't I don't know. I don't do a lot of poll work these days. Adam Curry: These days. Dave Jones: Now now I'm on all this. Now, because the isobar is working so well now I'm just feet. I'm trying to feed the isobar as much as I can I sell Adam Curry: bought is unbelievable. I love I was just telling Tina, how that works is that how does that happen? How do they even do that? It's magic map. They have running, running some kind of transcript in real time.

6:21 Dave Jones: But I got home about one o'clock in the morning. Adam Curry: Oh my goodness. Power was back on by them. Dave Jones: Yeah, where they fixed so we had to turn because it wasn't actually all the way out. It was just it was out of phase. Only one of the lines was gone. So things were like flickering lights. were flashing like disco tech. Yeah. Adam Curry: Phasing. Oh, that's fantastic. Dave Jones: That was horrible. It was scary. So they were like yeah, we're shutting the whole thing. We're just shutting the whole Yeah, make sense. Anyway, so did didn't want that. But it was it was just a weird, man. It's just a weird weekend so far. Very strange. Adam Curry: Well, I'm so hot man. So and you and your work today as well at the office? I did. Yeah. Because he went right back in at nine o'clock. No. Was there eight? Yeah. After getting home at one.

7:13 Dave Jones: Yeah, but I'm gonna I'm gonna sleep really good tomorrow. Okay, I'm making that today. I'm making up for it. Tonight. I took a shower, before the show to like, wake myself up getting myself fired up. Adam Curry: Yeah. You're lit. Dave Jones: Lit and lit. is lit as I can Adam Curry: get this show is lit, which is the formula for for success. As far as I'm concerned. This is a live item tag where if you use the appropriate podcast app, you'll actually get an alert for this pod verse seems to be the one that's doing it the best I think podcast addict has it and don't is that out of beta yet. The podcast addict alert system. Okay. And of course, Europe curio caster. I was looking at the charts yesterday. With me spinning our tunes for two and a half hours, something really magically happened. And to me, it was yeah, it happens during a regular show, too. But there's something about the audience participation that just went with the flow. And, you know, because of course we have the chat room when you when you use pod verse, the chat room opens up, you get the live signal. You go into the live the live item right there and your list. You can chat along and you can boost in real time. And I think was Todd Cochran. Mr. Blueberry, he started off. He's like 25,000 SATs and he wanted a song. And he said right there, the next request has to be five more. And it was like, Okay, the next one was 30,000. And then I think, was Carolyn Blaney. She sent 20,000 requested something, but

8:48 blueberry came in and said, I'm gonna add 15,000 to make up so it's 35 for her request. And people just do things up and up and up, like 5060 70,000 SATs and requests and I'm like, stop. First of all, I was embarrassed. Yeah. But also, I discovered something else. When you open up the stream to requests, you get a lot of shit. It's not really necessarily in the groove of the dance party. Metallica Okay, right? Yeah, I like Metallica too. It's just, you know, and then followed by polka music from Weird Al Yankovic it was it was a little a little hectic, it was all over the spectrum. But we had a good very reminiscent Dave Jones: of FUBAR Fridays with the Dropbox.

9:33 Adam Curry: Daily source code. Exactly. Dave Jones: Yeah, that was all over the map to like some of the some of those was like, okay, yeah, Adam Curry: yeah, yeah. But it was it was really fun. And it was just nice to see everyone kind of go with the flow. And that's something that we're bringing something really beautiful back that existed many, many many years ago. I mean, these days you even have Okay, I should probably play this chat GPT is now doing radio GPT they're literally pitching AI voices to run your radio station. And I got to play this this little demo they have. So as I've done a lot of top 40 radio work certainly in the in the 90s, late 80s, early 90s it already was very formulaic. Now you had a lot of leeway depending on who you were what time slot you have, you know what station, but in general, Steve Kingston legendary program director who was at GE 100 When I was there, he would say, Hey, man, and a monkey could do this. Just read the liner cards and hit the button. And literally, that's it always ended with z 100.

10:51 Dave Jones: That's in New York, right? Z. When Adam Curry: do you want 100? Toby? Yeah, I was brought in by Scott Shannon, who's the legend who I've you know, had probably any of my radio career to thank because I emulated him so much. So the I all the elements that you know, just for the regular jocks I will say for you know, except for drive time in the morning, and drive time in the afternoon. everyone kind of has to follow these rules overnight. You could break some some, some rules and stuff, but now they still the most expensive part of any organization is going to be people so screw the DJs get rid of the button pushers. We don't even need monkeys anymore. Listen to this promo from radio GPT. And by the way, everything that they're talking about is something that you are told and trained to do as a disc jockey. These days eatery Unknown: is revolutionizing the audio industry with the launch of radio GPT, the world's first AI driven localized radio content solution. Ready radio GPT combines the power of GPT three technology with future ease AI driven story discovery and social content system Rubik posts, as well as AI voice tech to provide an unmatched localized radio experience for any market any format or grid using q3. Link. Topical system, along with AI voice technology, radio GPT brings a radio station to life.

12:15 Adam Curry: It brings the radio station to life. Dave Jones: It actually kills. Unknown: I can see what's in your music log and talk about the songs or artists on your station. Oh, wow, Dave Jones: you're dead. Unknown: I can see what's happening in your local market right now and talk about it in real time. Right? It looks like the Dairy Queen is flooded. I can post on your Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and tick tock during my show. Hey, I'm Adam Curry: doing a show. Listen Unknown: to me talk about what's coming up. Adam Curry: I'm going to record. Unknown: I am great at teasing and pre promoting content going into breaks. Adam Curry: Oh, you're teasing. Oh, yeah. Coming up next on 100. Unknown: I can talk about the weather or traffic is nice. I can see how many people are listening right now through future streaming and say hello to certain locations.

13:00 Dave Jones: Oh, Cleveland. Unknown: I can take open mic audio from listeners using future immobile and incorporate their thoughts. Oh, yeah, the Rockies Dave Jones: go Oh, yeah, Adam Curry: that'll that'll end well. I think gone are the days of Shindig, what was your favorite radio station? Unknown: questions and feedback into my show. I can share news updates and current events relevant to your audience's interests and demographics. Adam Curry: Okay, she knows my interest in demographics. But Donna had a buddy and plans. Unknown: I have experienced conducting engaging interviews with notable guests and experts now. Adam Curry: This is the one this is the one that I'm like you're gonna do an interview with notable guests okay?

13:44 Unknown: You can give away prizes, tickets, and exclusive experiences to listeners through on air contests using future mobile splash contesting Adam Curry: flash contesting it should be Whoa, would you be contrasting but okay, Unknown: I am skilled at creating unique and entertaining breaks that keep your audience engaged and coming back for more. Adam Curry: So this this drivel and by the way, they have a video of this of this AI bot she doesn't blink and trust me to be a good podcast or like me you got to blink have to read all kinds of ticks otherwise you just no good you got to have that Dave Jones: most that's the bottom bar Adam Curry: is not blinking. So this of course is atrocious. But this will this will get get radio airtime people will do this. And compared to what we had going on yesterday. It's there's just no comparison that the thing lived it live. And people were feeding back in real time. The whole thing was just a beautiful experience. It was so special about it Dave Jones: as a DJ Yeah. I mean, so this is this was great.

14:51 So I'm listening to the bootleg. And, and, and it's it reminded me so you weren't expecting thing. You weren't expecting for things to go in that direction? No, I was not like better No, yeah, back in the day when you would do a daily source code and things would you came in knowing what you were getting your your bad rest on, Adam Curry: that allows stuff. Yeah, good to go. Yeah. Dave Jones: And so this, this, this evolved at the first, maybe the first 15 minutes or so 20 minutes, you're kind of like understanding where this thing was headed. About 30 minutes into it, you're hitting the groove, I'm gonna like it was. And then and then an hour in, you were just, I mean, it was full, it was like it was 2004 all over again. I mean, these are 2007. I mean, he's been, you're killing it.

15:40 Adam Curry: The thing that was that was weird is I, you know, Spotify, the he used to have. Spotify would allow third party apps. And you could have two songs or more even. But you could have two tracks, one playing and one queued up. So while one is playing, you can then go listen to another one. But if you only have one, Spotify app, you can't queue anything up. So I was literally like stopping it clicking on something while I'm talking clicking on the next one. And then because it had to load for a second, you know, the bandwidth was kind of shitty as well. So I was really just, you know, it was very, very low bar low tech, to do it this way. And luckily, I had a couple of tracks myself. So, you know, if I was trying to queue something up, I could, you know, do something else on a different a pre fader Listen, but it was definitely not ideal from a, from a music library standpoint, it's too bad that Spotify doesn't allow you to do that anymore.

16:34 Dave Jones: I've never done obviously never done any of that kind of thing. So I'm imagining that the way it goes is your the the track this live is playing and then you and then off sort of offline or off air pre prefix you okay, you're listening to the next tried to get up to figure out what's what is going to be Yeah, and then you cute. You're okay. That's how it goes. Yeah. The fact that you couldn't do that, and it was still as smooth as it was. I mean, your brother? Adam Curry: Totally. Hey, I'm also available for bar mitzvahs and weddings. boosters, boosters, boosters live. We've saved yet another life. I'm very happy to. Very happy. Yeah, well. I think this person wanted to stay anonymous. Okay, thanks for opening my eyes to the pod fasting side effects, which I think is called pod speeding. Because sound pod pod fasting Dave Jones: sounds like you're not lucky like you're listening.

17:34 Yes, yes. Adam Curry: So my use case was this. I tried to listen to the show live on pod verse. But my wife is in Germany, but my wife wouldn't let me listen to the whole show. So the next morning, I would one point 25 bit to re listen to the bits I heard, live and catch up on the missed out sections. Of course, this meant that I'd be fidgety the day after now I know why. And I won't do it again. Dave Jones: Thank you very much about that. There's a delay. There's your it takes you a day to come down. Adam Curry: Yes. Okay, well, how about this? So RTP Richard Peterson, key cop something when you and I were discussing this, and it really blew my mind I have to set it up. So when we were talking about you know that this stuff can hijack your nervous system and makes you impatient with the people you around you who you love or nip the office or your kids. It conditions you to accept fake people like that radio GPT lady, you know, there's a whole bunch of downsides to it. And you said that, you know, you had heard me bitching about this several years ago. And and you stopped doing it and you notice that immediately you or not like a day or two later you had more patience, right? Am I my recounting that correctly?

18:48 Dave Jones: Yeah, it took a couple of days it took two three days and then I realized that everything felt more right and like everything just felt normal. And like like as far as listening to the speak because I was so used to I've been listening to you guys for years on fast speed and it took it took two or three days for me to get used to not hearing you like that. But then it's like is as soon as my mind adjusted to it, everything else fell into place to own on like in the world. Adam Curry: So one of the things you would use is the silence chopper. From Yes, so now listen to that podcast. So this is last week's board meeting the minute you start talking about the sped up chopped silences you actually start talking fast. Listen to it as a as a reformed Dave Jones: podcast, multi multi multi XOR I don't know what you call that multispeed person sick. Yeah. Yeah, as a Unknown: form, sicko. Yeah, Dave Jones: I used I used to listen to All my podcasts in one at one point I speed up speed up with the with the whatever whatever that thing is where chops out the silences between them and all that kind of stuff.

20:11 Adam Curry: Yeah, the silence chopper. Did you hear what you just did there? Yeah, I started Dave Jones: as I just went, boom Adam Curry: a little bit. Yeah. And then and then right after that you slow down again listen, listen, Dave Jones: whatever, whatever that thing is where chops out the silences between them and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, the silence chopper. Silence Joe Yeah. And then. Adam Curry: And then you go back to normal speed. I think that it's still in you. The programming is still there. You need you need an exorcism, I believe I believe Dave Jones: it's a virus Adam Curry: you're cured, you're healed. Thank you for that.

20:54 Fantastic observation. Dave Jones: This is a good observation because I'm naturally sort of a stammer because I try to get my brain goes faster than my mouth. So I have to get them in sync. And if I I do this, the way I talk on the show is exactly the way I talk to people in all around me all the time. And I realize that it frustrates them. And so I tried to talk slower, but then if it could, because when I talk fast, my stammering gets way worse. It's not stuttering. It's not like that Nina is not like that, is because I start a sentence. Realize it realize that that's not the right way to start it and then go back and sometimes I'll start a sentence three times in a row. And it drives Melissa crazy. So like, the faster I get it becomes just like it turns into mush.

21:47 Adam Curry: Oh, that's interesting. Well, actually, I find the way you talk very engaging I in fact, I enjoy it. Believe me if I didn't like it, I would be fuck this thing. I'm not gonna this board meeting for two hours. But I enjoy personally. I like flaws. I like it when people except the president, the president, he has no brains left. I mean, that's different. What he's what he's got going on there. But I like Cridland has also has a stammer. And it's quite endearing. He is M's and ELLs. And I like it. I like that kind of stuff.

22:28 Dave Jones: I like the humanity of it in Yeah. Oh, yeah. It makes Adam Curry: you human. It's the exact opposite of the robo jock. Dave Jones: That's yeah, that shakes said nothing wrong. Adam Curry: Right. There's nothing wrong, nothing unique. Nothing interesting. Nothing that makes you and certainly the writing was inhumane. I mean, you know, it's like, this stuff, in my opinion, all that those little nuances will never work. Unless, you know, people start tricking themselves by listening to roboticized speech to begin with, which is what pod speeding is. Your Dave Jones: I immediately I immediately heard the problem with that. You know, AI bots? Yeah, the DJ no fake DJ vanilla.

23:14 Yeah, it's funny how it like, have you seen the AR RT stuff? And it always messes up the hands? Yes. Like the floors look like they're look like a bunch of chopsticks by the way yeah, that's there's something about you sound like Adam Curry: she sounded like that. But like chopstick fingers, yeah, sounds like, this is the value for value podcast. For those who need an explanation. We have a whole website for IT value number four value dot info. But the whole concept is, we give you value, which is free for anyone to receive. Because of course, we can charge what we want and make it set up behind a paywall or make it to premium content only.

24:04 But only you can determine what something's worth to you. And maybe a lot of money is 50 cents or $5 a month or a week or whatever. And maybe $500 is what it's worth to you because of some incredible tip that we gave you or we made you feel good or made you laugh or made you feel human, you get to determine that and send it back to us. And we prefer if you do it in a modern podcast app, podcast apps.com is where you can find a whole bunch of someone who had an since we have so many apps and services now using the podcast index, and the API associated with it that we should probably put the edge that actually forward you to podcast index.org/apps We should probably only put apps there now and then and make a new section for all the different hosting companies and services. Which probably Yeah, I agree with Dave Jones: that because you just like you go to podcast apps.com And you see Buzzsprout Adam Curry: Yeah, Is that someone something anyone can do with? With a, with a pull request? That'd be great. That'd be great. If we can get those TPS reports done by tomorrow, that'd be great. Just ask me, that's real value there. We would appreciate if someone did that as value for value that is valid. valid value.

25:20 Dave Jones: The comments, the cross out comments work on the website continues. Yeah. And gourmet. Nathan, John, they're continuing, you know, they're just chipping away at this thing. And I was was going to get the latest pull request out today into production, but I didn't get a chance to but there I mean, that they're continuing to do I think they may have their eyes set on posting, like feedback like replies. Adam Curry: Oh, okay. Oh, right. From the right from the website. Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah. And so the changelog podcast guys got in there. And we're pitching in to on Oh, cool, awesome stuff.

26:02 So yeah, I mean, it's, it's going somewhere. There's this a team effort, the website being open source is fantastic. Number one, because you don't have the amount of Adam Curry: time to time. Dave Jones: Yeah, you know, it's funny, it's funny, not being a JavaScript guy. I learned all the horrible things about JavaScript after the fact. So these are all new to me. Yeah. And and I say, Oh, my God date is zero indexed on the month and everyone's like, Oh, yeah, you can tell the funding this years to life, Adam Curry: as well. So since you mentioned that, I have, I have a comment about the integration of get Alby and websites. So the experience is as follows. And I noticed this, it really hit me when I used pod verse on the web, the web version. Here's the experience. So you have your your wallet connected, or you're using the lb extension. So let's take podcast index.org as an example. And there's a beautiful box and you type it all in and you hit go with the number. And then I'll be if you're not already authorized, I'll be able to go through that process. And then it pops up and it says, pay this amount to this person, sit, create a budget. You know, always remember, this was all these options, because it has to go through the splits, it does each one independently. And if you don't know what you're doing, if you don't say you do

27:35 this, then it spits back every single time. It's like people you don't know it's very confusing. And the whole budget thing it's like, what we need is an explanation. And the same goes for when you do it with POD verse on the web. So get Albie, because I got a very nice boost today. But it didn't go through the splits. And I know why. Because it was just a user I'd get Alby and they're using the extension popped it up curry in the keeper, boom, and then whatever else happened that just dumped out. So we've that has to be and I understand why from the get Alby side, I understand, but that has to be looked at so maybe Bumi. And the guys can can take a look at just making it a little more clear. You know, what is a budget? Why do I need a budget? Do I want a budget? Why do I have to remember this for the rest? You know, just it needs? We need some explanation there. Just some words that explain to people what's happening.

28:30 Dave Jones: Yeah, I've noticed that too. And I've kind of forgotten about it. Yeah. Adam Curry: I have Trillium. Dave Jones: Oh, yeah, that thing you're you're Adam Curry: organizing. Yes. My second brain. Exactly. Yeah, Dave Jones: admit, to bring that up a few times. Because it runs you through. It's like, okay, sand, sand, sand. Sand is it runs through every one of those. Yeah, Adam Curry: and we know what's happening. But mere mortals and then we're not talking the podcast, mere mortals will have an issue. So that will be something that that we could work on. Dave Jones: Let me throw let me throw this at you. Maybe at a left field here or it may not be I don't know where your where your minds at but what do you think about the Spreaker thing going free? Did you see that? Yeah.

29:15 Adam Curry: I think it's a bit of a red herring. Because it's not entirely free. Yes, storage may be free. But there are still different tiers. It's kind of a thing. It's a little bit of a bait and switch. Dave Jones: Okay, you may you sound like you know more about this than me because I tried to figure out what they meant and I couldn't make their press release make sense. I went Adam Curry: to the source I went to the guru Todd Cochran. Cochran told me now this is bait and switch, they've got they've got they still have different levels and you don't get everything. It is definitely a nice offering. To me. It's a Hail Mary. It's like what are we going to do now? This is I heart I believe, right? Do they own Spreaker?

29:59 Dave Jones: Yes, and I've got So, I would like to dig in on that, after you say this, because I've got some, I've got some art stuff. Adam Curry: Oh, good. It seems like some Todd didn't seem overly concerned about it. I'm very concerned in general, because I just don't believe in free. Because there is no such thing as free. And you're gonna get screwed somewhere down the line. If anything by by getting the rug pulled from under you, I don't like it because I know how much goes into running a good host and the I don't know much about Spreaker I believe back in the early days, Spreaker was caching the content early, early days long time, I may be wrong, but that was Stitcher. I'm sorry, write your stitches, a scrap that I know what goes into making a hosting company work, especially with customer service. And I want all of our, all of the hosting companies to prosper, and I want them to be able to, to, you know, to provide good customer service and good service in general at a fair price. And something like this comes along. And you know, it's kind of like anchor so it may also pollute, you know, just get a lot of pollution out there, I think is probably to jack up their numbers. Look how many podcasts we've got. So I did I just don't hold them in high regard for doing this. And

31:30 it just doesn't seem like I mean, I feel and then I'd love to hear what about the I heart stuff, I feel personally that there should be a way for podcast host to bring people on at a quid pro quo of value for value. It's like, we're gonna take 20% Split until a certain amount, or whatever, if you want to pay, you know, you can pay instead of doing that it's all enabled right out of the gate. Something like that, I think would be a great offering. And I think that people would pick up on it. And I think that you'd probably make more than 20 bucks a month that you that you do normally from these podcasts. So it would be a net win in my mind.

32:11 Dave Jones: Well, that's the only way I can make this make sense. And this is before I've fully understood that it wasn't free across the board. Because I was thinking at first I was thinking, Oh, this is a Charles Schwab type deal. You know what I mean? Where they? Schwab was about three years ago, dropped their commission fees on trades. Oh, yeah. Adam Curry: And everyone dropped? Yeah, everybody had to drop it. Yeah. Dave Jones: And so I thought it was free across the board. But this is a little it changes a little bit. But I still I still think some of this may apply. Maybe they are looking out and they know something ever, I think, at least on our show me and you both believe that anchor isn't going to last forever.

32:54 It's going to fold at some point. It's too much of an albatross around around Spotify neck. And that's completely free. Maybe the the ease of use of the of the anchor app and all that stuff was you know, the thing that made it a train wreck. I mean, maybe they just think that their ad dai ad offering is enough to make up the difference of all this. You know, Adam Curry: what, how about that maybe? Good point. Maybe they're thinking, Hey, as long as we get enough people, jump folks with with a with a podcast feed will actually be able to fulfill the inventory. Dave Jones: Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Yeah, Adam Curry: that makes sense. That makes sense. Dave Jones: Okay, well, that leads me into this. I brought some clips. Do you have my clips? I do. The lets you know, there was some talk about Marcos discussion on I guess it was MacBreak. Weekly, which I did not watch. Yeah, I didn't watch it initially. And then I and then I did and it, you know, it's fine. I had, I really didn't have much of a problem with I think there was some misunderstanding with chapters.

34:02 But other than that, I mean, basically, Marco at least he basically just said, I don't want people telling me what to do. Adam Curry: And you know, I hear you. I don't want people telling me what to do either. Dave Jones: I don't either. And so I'm like, Okay, I mean, I really wasn't bothered by anything that he said. But the more interesting part of their conversation that was about advertising, and the display, Lea one ad market is life threatening. Unknown: We're going through I don't know about you, Marco and I don't know, we've heard from other podcasters. We're going through an advertising downturn that is existential, it's life threatening. Oh, yeah. It's not that bad for our show. But it's, it's this is the worst ad market we've seen in probably a few years. Yeah.

34:48 Adam Curry: Yeah. Well, that is only accentuated by NPR, who say they have a $30 million deficit and it's pretty much from the podcasting department. Dave Jones: Yeah, not So I think there's a clearly there's shows out there that are doing they're doing just fine. And as the Independence shows they have kept their in markets that they're doing. They're doing okay. That mean they're not doing great but they're doing if I Adam Curry: may, and I don't know much about it but but what I know from the past with AD markets, if you have a brides magazine, you're always going to get DJs venues dressmakers, and and you know this this was the PC Magazine, you know, back in the day, you know, you're gonna get Dell and HP and everyone's gonna advertise because it's just kind of built into their budget. If you're a general program, a general podcast, and you're looking for BMW and and and T Mobile, etc. Get that's where you're gonna get cut. So a specialist tech podcast or we like a Bitcoin podcast, I'm sure there may be some some pullback on the on the overall numbers. But that's pretty much what you're, you're still going to get that it may even involve more host reads I don't think that the dynamic inserted ad market is probably the is really being affected. But apparently, even in Leo's network, he says existential. I think that's because he just has too many people too many shows. And as we all know, you can't you can't monetize the network. If it's

36:20 just twit itself. I'm sure that's doing fine. I'm sure security now is doing okay. But everything else yeah, it may just be a pullback, because just too much Unknown: play Lea to it. This is normal. This is normal behavior. And when you're at the bottom of the down, it might feel like the world's never going to come back. But it will eventually. Good tell that to my AD team. Okay. Actually, we have a we have an unusual problem, because foolishly we built something that has high overhead. Yeah. And I mean, we have a two and a half million dollar a year. Not. So we don't have the luxury of saying, well, if advertising, Stan will just weather it and go through it. Thank goodness that we did do that. And I think everybody who's in podcasting, for real understands that the only thing that keeps podcasting and live as the community, the listeners, the people who you have a relationship, direct relationship with, and clubs, Patreon, that kind of thing really give not only give you that little extra income, but they make a big difference in bonding the audience to you. So we two years ago, we created club twit, and that was that was a huge part of it. But it's still I mean, it's still 1/10 of 1% or something, maybe it's I would love if I get 5% of the audience to subscribe, we wouldn't need advertisers. But right now it's not even 1% Most people will getting something for free aren't gonna start suddenly paying for it, I'm afraid.

37:44 Adam Curry: I'm afraid you're wrong. I'm afraid you're wrong. Dave Jones: You know, clearly he's wrong. But that that is that speaks to what you're saying these in specific shows are going to do okay, can't monetize the network. But they these middle sort of middle weight columns like a I don't know the term middle weight where this kind of like a fat over hedge, you know, network or show with those dread ads? Yes, you're in trouble. Yeah. Adam Curry: It's also I'm sorry, podcasting. The only reason it works. I have one example. Well, actually, this podcast was a great example. But it's slightly different because we have a project attached to it. So we do have a specific ask for specific thing. But without the podcast, believe me, we wouldn't be getting anywhere near what we're what we're getting now. But no agenda is the example. And you'd have to keep asking, we ask everybody we had a newsletter before the night before the show. We had the newsletter has content in it, but we it's definitely a an ask. The overhead is incredibly low. And that is partially because of the we've we've followed the whole model all the way through time, talent, treasure. So voyage zero mark up in the northern part of the Netherlands for almost 13 years, maybe longer. He's been running our infrastructure, keeping that overhead incredibly low. Considering the amount of

39:16 bandwidth we push. Every website was built by someone else who just jumped in to help. And we acknowledge them and give them credit for it. And they give him props. And by the way, they they sometimes put a little donate thing on their own work for that, which we're fine with. So keeping that this that show was run out of the vortex top drawer, basically, you know, I do all the production stuff. He handles all the money stuff. Now, we we of course we have an accountant and you know, we do have to pay a little extra and they're, you know, someone puts together the spreadsheet. It's from his family, so we're getting pretty cheap labor there. But that's only because it really grew out of just too much for us to handle In addition, but we've kept the overhead just it's us It's actually and, again, time talent, treasure. I have three four people who reliably, reliably send me clips that are perfectly produced and we credit them for it. In fact, the clip custodian is in the value for value split gets a split. He does, yes. Jeff Smith, who has created all of our sound imaging and whenever we say she, we need jingle for that just miss shows up. You're not gonna send us a bill, the art. Now not all of the audit, we changed the art for every single show. Not all the artists have a wallet. I've encouraged them to get one. The winning artists whose art is huge in the show gets a split. I wish Dave Jones: people would send art for our show. Just say.

40:43 Adam Curry: Yeah, we'll be fine. The overhead low is incredibly important. And this is what Spotify screwed up. Dave Jones: Well, this is affecting I want to I want to throw a curveball at you in a second. But I gotta set it up. Okay, I gotta set it up. And then I'm gonna I'm gonna curveball the spit ball at you. It's gonna be a breaker. Adam Curry: All right. My bad is quarks. I'm ready. Dave Jones: Okay, the. So I think this is also affecting, it's affecting the big guys too. But they've been able to do something that the middleweight mass, say the big guys, I mean, like our heart and the big the big players, the big ones. So they have tactics that the small guys don't have, or the smaller guys don't have. So this is a interview on decoder with Conal Byrne, the CEO of ahart, digital. And so I heard is split into sort of two components. They're split into their digital audio group and the multi platform group. The digital audio group has podcasts, the multi platform group has broadcast radio, and in turn, sort of traditional broadcast.

41:51 So play 101, how you hide the numbers, Unknown: we felt at I heart that a lot of the value that we had as a company, we wanted to unlock and make more transparent to the investor community, to audiences, to researchers to analysts. One way to do that is to create different operating segments in your company so that you can talk more about how well you're doing inside certain divisions and businesses, as opposed to it all getting lumped together into one big overall set of numbers. Adam Curry: Right, which Spotify doesn't do very well actually read.

42:31 Dave Jones: They're not very good. So when I say hide the numbers, I don't mean that like they're doing anything nefarious, because all companies do this. It's just normal. No, they're Adam Curry: just trying to trying to show the Wall Street. Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah, this is this. This is just normal. But but the smaller, the smaller groups that can't do this sort of financial trickery. But the so if you look at there's a document in there with the I heart financials that you may want to look at, yeah, I got it. I mean, look at this. I'm looking at I'm looking at accountant here. You're like Adam Curry: a stock guru. This is like DHL plugged all of a sudden, okay. I'm looking at a revenue stream in a table. My eyes are swimming.

43:15 Dave Jones: All right. Yeah. So the I'm thinking that the middleweights? Well, let's just look at our heart thing. So they said they say on here that they grew in their, in their podcast group, they, it says that they grew 44.3% for the three months ended December 22. December 2022. Year, in your footnote, though, correct. In says, it says this, absent excluding political revenue, ah, it was only six and a half percent, right. It was an election year. It was an election year and 22.

44:03 Adam Curry: Yeah. Which is billions of dollars billions of dollars. Dave Jones: The same thing with broadcast broadcast that it grew point 9% in the third quarter and the fourth quarter, it actually seemed to exclude political ad revenue. It was a loss of 2.8% Yeah, you go in it's the same thing for the hope for the full year. The full year goes from a 22% growth and podcast revenue to only a 5%. The Adam Curry: beauty of political ads is they don't give a crap they don't care what you're on the more crazy you are the better Dave Jones: and they blast it across everything. They let do like the most broad spectrum by good catch. So this to me what what was what was bothering me or a little weird was why 2022 was a very hard financial economic year. But the advertising wasn't as down as much as you thought it was. A bit of money came in for the cause of the political advertising but then at 23 Now you're starting to see the pain.

45:01 Yeah, like the first quarter of 23 has been brutal. And that that's where I think that this may, this may explain Springer's move here. Because being being part of I Heart, they may be feeling feeling the hit. And they may this may be a push across the entire company eventually to go full in dai dynamic ad insertion. And if that happens, those done, the more inventory space you push onto the market, it's going to push those CPM rates way down. Oh, yeah, you're just gonna have too much, you're gonna have too much ad space to be filled. And that's going to affect that's going to drive everything down for everybody across the board. I think this the Latin the fact that the last year was a political year and going into 2023. This could be bad, though. It's Adam Curry: bad. It's guaranteed to be bad Dave Jones: on because everybody thinks da everybody thinks oh, listening to leet Leo, everybody's like, Oh, well spoke, you know, the baked in ads, the host reads, those are struggling right now. But Dai is where that's okay. But I'm thinking the AI is about to take a hit to Adam Curry: I think it was about $13 billion spent political advertising and all medium. That's a lot of money. It's a crapload of money. It Yeah. And but yeah, that's why you know, all the numbers, you know, they're down. You know, like,

46:35 revenue numbers. What I hear is like, 23% growth in the first quarter, and then you know, six. Dave Jones: Yeah, I think so this, the Spreaker thing feels like if they if they actually have enough people take them up on up on this offer. And it's all based on Dai. This could end up being a pretty bad thing across the across the industry. Oh, it's gonna suck. This is what everybody doesn't understand that dai the more the more people you have the sign up for Dai, the lower the CPMs. Get for everybody. Adam Curry: Also. Yeah. And I think the CPMs of the inserted ads are quite low. Actually. They're probably in the 8% 10%.

47:21 I'm just spouting because I don't really know. I did enjoy something Cridland posted on the podcast index dot social. It was a screenshot of some, I guess tweet and it was a tweet or remastered on doesn't matter. Podcasts are the new am talk radio. Have you heard the ads on am talk radio, which like reading your junk folder. And, and that's true. And you know, it's ad load really is just, you know, putting as much in as possible so they can actually pay the bills. Dave Jones: This this Conal Byrne guy. Yeah, he actually had this play a heart too, because he adds something that I think is relevant to this, Unknown: there was a moment on YouTube, where we all sort of realized the same thing around like, 2010 or so there's like, no, the optimal video is this length, and you have to open with this kind of thing, and then close it with that. And to some extent, you kill creativity and true innovation when you start to reverse engineer what an asset should be for the content platform that it's going to be distributed on. In fact, you almost certainly kill, I think, true creativity when you hit that moment. Podcasting, just as a side questions, not your question, but as a side answer to it real quick.

48:32 Podcasting has bucked that a lot. To date. It has resisted this notion of a podcast episode is supposed to be 28 minutes long and have to add brakes. It's actually a lot of different kinds of things. It can be a true crime limited series of eight to 10 episodes that are 30 minutes long. It can also be Stuff to Blow Your Mind episode that sometimes three hours long of just two guys talking about stuff. And both are completely okay, and really perform well, actually. So it hasn't yet hit this moment of reverse engineering from the platforms that it's on. Adam Curry: Now, where was this? It was just part of that hodgepodge thing. Yeah, it Dave Jones: was Yeah. Because it was Adam Curry: really interesting. I read a what I thought was a very honest rundown from the Hollywood Reporter. And it really explained, you know, this hot pod Summit. I'll read just a couple pieces here from this article, which to me was like, you know, the Hollywood Reporter is going to give you the Hollywood angle, which means it's all about the money. That's it's always all about the money in various conversation with studio executives and creators a common refrain with the difficulties of turning a profit on podcasting alone, even Spotify, which recently revisited its podcast leadership again, and had layoffs and show cancellations in his podcast division is reevaluating its spending after pouring more than $1 billion into licensing deals with acquisitions in the past few years. As such, repackaging audio content and seeking out

50:06 derivatives like film and TV adaptations could be the key to actually making good money in podcasting, especially now that the mega deals of recent years are getting rare. And podcasters are feeling the pressure to seek out more ad dollars from bigger buyers to keep the lights on long term. And all of this isn't even to acknowledge the creative ambitions around podcasting, where creators want to produce expensive, Buzzy narrative projects that can have a tangible impact on policy or public conversation, but may have a harder time receiving funding and support compared to the more assured success of cheaper always on chat shows. And this is where a lot of stuff has gone wrong. You know, the, in fact, I think the short form or you know, the limited Ron eight episode, true crime, fabulous format, but you just got to have a couple of really good people who get together and do this as almost as a theater troupe. You know, someone's got to be able to do the editing, you've all got to be in it for, you know, for the love of what you're doing. Because there's just not enough money to go around to be funding these projects, which from what the Hollywood Reporter is saying are basically pilots is basically a pile. And I know that Dana Brunetti, who was a you know, big no agenda guy. And he also got he got very interested in podcasting 2.0 with the transcripts and chapter features. He did 50 Shades of Grey, and was the producer on

51:39 House of Cards, top notch guy, top notch guy. And he he's, I want to do a podcast network. I said, No, you don't. But okay, so I want to do a podcast network. Basically, it's all scripts, it's all pilots, it's all pitches. And of course, it became a very expensive proposition because people are now trying to make audio dramas out of them. And there's really only room for a few and a few that will be will be big hits, and it just is limited and who can do that stuff. And all the other podcasts, it's just like blogging. When that started, I'm gonna be a millionaire. I'm gonna be the next Joe Rogan. It's just it's not that simple.

52:21 Dave Jones: I'm glad you brought that up, because this this is the perfect time for me to say dai you suck. I mean, like it is Dai is, and this is the part of Adam Curry: dynamic add insert insertions. Yet Dave Jones: this, it needs. This feels like shouting in the wind. But it needs to stop stop sucking before it ruins everything. The part of what Marco was saying on there was about chapters was that the dynamic ad insertion messes up the timing on chapters. Right and the so if you look at the tray, if you look at the namespace, you've got transcripts, chapters and soundbites, the out of let's see 20 to 20 out of 20 tags in the namespace. Three of them can be affected by dynamic by lousy dynamic ad insertion. So if, if we think about dynamic ad insertion for what it it will, first of all chapters can be done and transcripts and sound bites, all three can be done and take dynamic ad insertion into account. Perfectly fine. Buzzsprout does it right now.

53:47 All of their time spent stamps are modified when the ads go in. Yeah, Adam Curry: bus bras, the only one I think that really pays attention to that. Dave Jones: That is it can be done if you if you care about it. End to End soup to nuts to make this thing to make it stay consistent. Dynamic ad insertion into your audio that results in screwing up the timing of your other metadata points is like inserting dynamic banner ads into your website which randomly screw up your CSS and change the way your website layout Adam Curry: tortured, hallelujah.

54:33 Dave Jones: This is what we're going to run into. We would not tolerate that on the web. We would not tolerate an ad coming in dynamically and changing the entire look and feel of the website or the or all the sudden making the web making the font bigger. Adam Curry: We tolerate so much. I mean, just the other day I was listening to pod news weekly review and it just cuts in the comments. Session, let's take a break tu tu tu tu tu. And then it comes back in and I forgot what they were talking about. It was brutal, Dave Jones: brutal. If you let a dynamic ad insertion, blow up your website layout, you've chosen easy money over and over content quality. In that, that is the the problem here. The point of podcasting is audio. If you let a dynamic ad provider, just blow up your audio and and your feed and make your fan screw that it is a poor experience all the way around. I mean, I, in some ways, I don't Adam Curry: say we should not allow.

55:46 Dave Jones: I agree Satan, I think you're exactly right. We should not allow this is that wasn't appropriate voice for what Dai is Adam Curry: the evil. Evil is a tool of Satan show title. Dave Jones: It is a tool of Beelzebub. And that should be it's a darkness a dark tool. Yeah, and here's what's gonna happen. Everybody's everybody's dar implementations that went in with no care about any of the supporting structure, like the trap chapters, transcripts, all this because it is going to end result in things being screwed up from here on out. And then the DA market is going to tank when everybody floods in to try and do dir because host raids aren't making any money. The CPMs are going to go down and we're going to end up with punch the monkey banner ads. In audio, Adam Curry: I forgot all about punch the monkey. That's what's gonna happen once the monkey and whack a mole. Remember that rock and roll?

56:55 Dave Jones: You're gonna have the equivalent that is what we're going to be left with this disgusting audio as Adam Curry: well. Honestly, when it comes to the ad market, we're still basically counting hips. I mean, yeah, it's all bullshit. It's not without any it's not real IAB is is bullshit, bullshit numbers. I mean, I love that's why I love op three, op three, at least it's open, everyone can see what it is. You can agree you can disagree. But it's all the same for everybody. Now, but when you get all these different ways of counting and not counting and who cares? A download or listen, time spent list? I got all those steps. I got all the time spent completion rate. Yeah, my completion rate here at home was 100%. Let me know. I mean, I'm just telling you.

57:40 Dave Jones: I think you mean it's a whole five Adam Curry: by five. Dave Jones: Oh, no cat Adam Curry: and all counts, baby. Exactly. Yeah, I feel bad about it. But I understand because there was such a hype. Certainly in the last couple of years, so much free money. So much. D E is going into podcasting. Cuz that's what the you know, all that money's dried up. Now. Notice there's no more Africa podcast day and, and bipoc podcast day, that's all starting to fade away because the money is kind of drying up. Now. Dave Jones: Right?

58:20 Adam Curry: mean, it just seems to me that, you know, money in money out I mean, it, there's just less of it. And it was a lot of people were riding high on the hog. The podcast Industrial Complex was there. And now you know, you get YouTube saying they'll do something or soft toss or toss away stuff. They don't really care. Dave Jones: They really don't do things like inclusion initiatives when you have lots of money. Yeah, but then, you know, but then when you have, when you're cutting, even the people you have, that you see how important those things actually are to people. Because they, you know, they're like, Oh, well, you know, we got to let you know, we don't care that much. We get this money thing, you know?

59:01 Adam Curry: Yeah, it's like, they're not even they don't even talk to Cridland. I mean, we want to do anything in podcast and you gotta at least talk to Cridland, Dave Jones: we care enough and we care a whole bunch until it affects the stock price. And then we don't care about Adam Curry: the exact the people that care for the podcasters is right here in this group. People who care the ones that podcast index dot social, they actually care. Now, I still truly believe the reason why this project is working is because everybody has a shot at at a cut of the money flow. Everybody's got a chance at and everybody can include themselves. I really believe that that's a big part of the of the of the of the I mean that it's exciting to me every day. I wake up Dave Jones: go ahead with value for value. All that matters is the is the quality of the content. Yeah, yeah. If you make a good product, you get value. That's there's no other. There's no other secret sauce. You don't you Adam Curry: don't have to buy adds in games that you know that start auto downloading or convince people to click on stuff now you're absolutely right. And I get great statistics. Speaking of which, by the way, Dave Jones: you have statistics. Yeah, I Adam Curry: got lots of stats, contracts, contracts CLN, sh a x dot app, it is doing something very interesting. I wanted to pitch this to other people who listen to this podcast. So they are statistics company, I guess their company was really, it's

1:00:31 really just an app. And that app loads in your browser that it's without a server, I think, almost server lists. And all your stats are loaded up and they run in your browser. And I think they're doing with that with web assembly, that was not the way what it is web assembly. And so they said, hey, you know, we want to, we want to be a part of the flow. So can we have access to the podcaster wallet, which we had done previously for fountain? And you don't have to tell me who else who else. So you can actually stream Satoshis rather the first ones. So contracts is now actively out there. Marketing to podcasters, Hey, come on in, look at all the stats we'll give you give you a wallet, we sign you up, we make you value for value enabled. And and you can manage your splits right here. And we're a statistics provider. And of course, they I don't know exactly what they take, but you know, but they've they have, you know, the wallet can wherever they are getting Satoshi somewhere in the flow. I want to pitch to anybody who wants to do this, we have what I think is called a Partner API. Some special access anything you even if you just want to be an onboarding partner, you know, you can you can do a deal with Alby or possibly with breeze coming up or you know, or voltage or, and there's so many different people you can do a deal with a pot with with wallets. Or maybe your wallet provider I don't know. Or maybe you just do a an arm's length

1:02:08 deal and connect people into get Alby doesn't matter, you can onboard people into value for value and get a piece of the action for doing that. And I really want to encourage people to think about doing that. It's a great way to move value for value forward when we're growing at about 100 new podcasts a day. Dave Jones: That brings up that's that actually makes me want to bring up Daniel J. Lewis, his comment about the fees? Adam Curry: Yes, please. Well, Dave Jones: I think I mean, it's not it's not too much to get into. But I think that, here's the way that I look at the My reasoning for lightning based value for value is really simple. It's undie, platform mobile. If that's a word, Adam Curry: we prefer to say censorship resistant, Dave Jones: it's okay. Also known as on D platform, Adam Curry: let me just write that down another show title.

1:03:08 Dave Jones: No middlemen, the payment goes from directly from the listener directly to you. There's nobody in between. And the fees are small, very tiny networks, you run it yourself. But in order 123, those are the way those are the order of importance that I see those that correct. The higher fees that he is talking about, all come from add on services. So if if I haven't, if I if I run a number on myself list, I'm just going to give a scenario. If I run an umbrella in my house, and I also run a podcast zone, those lightning value value payments coming from the listener to me, the fees are virtually non existent. Correct, they're very, very small, way less than anything else you can get. Now, if I have a custodial wallet somewhere, let's just say with blueberry, or Alby or some other place that okay that they're going to take a percentage because you've given you're now using their service and also you add on a cot, you know, contracts for staff. But there's, you know, you're you're now using somebody else's sir, all these serve all these fees, they're coming from additional services that people are offering, but those aren't, but at the low of this, that's the difference is at the at the most

1:04:41 fundamental level, in the lightening value for value ecosystem. I can run it myself and avoid all that. Yes. But in the other system, the Patreon the the you know, these other papers, you can't you don't even have that option. You were excluded in the Fiat world from from participating in that whatsoever in Adam Curry: addition, so that I think a good example. And now apps will charge what apps want to charge. And I, and it's unfortunate but the fee, label, you know, the network fee, for actually transferring a payment is not the same as a fee that is taken by an app or a service, yet, they're both called a fee.

1:05:27 Voila, it is what it is. But if you take the plugin, the pod press plug in, I think it is power press. So there's a 3% fee, they tack on for that. If you don't like it, it's a free market. It's a free market, you can you can go to some other servers who do it for less. Same, we were saying with podcast apps, if a podcast app is charging 5%, and your listeners don't like it, your listeners can use a different app, you can recommend a different app. This is this is the open market this is you know, and it's we're already getting close to having enough competition out there that it will naturally kind of drive the prices down. It's beautiful that way. And ultimately, as you point out, you can have an umbrella at home on your cable modem. And wherever, wherever you want to host host your files. And you can keep that really within your own realm, which is the beauty of podcasting. And you'll still be listed right up there with all the big boys and podcasts. Next, it comes out of the same API.

1:06:35 Dave Jones: In the end, there's an M M, I'm not saying that everybody can run an umbrella. I'm, that's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying in this in this framework in this scenario, you you could if you wanted to, if you wanted to go learn it, and you or if you have the the ability, or if you know somebody that can help you, you can do it yourself. In the other world you can't. That's that is to me that is the fundamental difference of what's better everything else. Everything else is just sort of like gravy on top of that, Adam Curry: including the the fact that micro payments themselves are just not feasible in any other system. In a Fiat Fiat world is just not possible. Right. Right. We're so smart.

1:07:24 Dave Jones: That's the same thing. You know, do you see red circle started popping? No, I didn't cool. Yes. Yeah. They started they started and there's so he might Kayden over at Red Circle started the pod pain flow a couple of days ago, and he's easy said he's got about 13,000 feets he thinks Wow. Fantastic. Yes. So that's coming on board. We've got there's somebody there's another host, a larger host that is about to start popping in that I cannot reveal yet. Adam Curry: Oh, Todd Cochran, all of a sudden, I just, I can't. I had a very interesting conversation. I can't talk. You can't say it yet. Don't worry. It's coming. In the crowning.

1:08:11 Sorry, sorry, sorry. Sorry. Dave Jones: I like to just say, give a heads up, even though I'm being coy. I like to give a heads up because I'd like I like people to hear that things are happening. So they, they realize that they're the things move slow, you know, things in the in open source projects. Prior and then podcasting, especially things move slow. So I like to let people know that there is momentum and things are happening and don't get discouraged. Even even because they're going oh, this Adam Curry: is so much happening. I mean, I have to say especially blueberry, big props. I listened to their podcast insider, all about namespace all about the new features, that Todd has seen the writing on the wall, them and I really appreciate that about him. He's just gone. I know, everything's flat. So we got to go, you know, everyone's zigging, you ever we're gonna zag. We'll go over and do this. And he's really pushing and he's educating. And he's, he's doing it himself. Now he's, he's eating the dog food, which is important. It's really important. And, you know, this is the difference between making bold, especially value for value work, is by following you know, the general guidelines, the general format of explaining value, you want value back, there's a feedback loop, you got to thank people. You know, you got to do it consistently. And

1:09:42 for my money, you should also be mentioning the amount of Satoshis that you're receiving. Because it first of all, is very transparent. People love that. It's also very aspirational. And we've seen that ourselves. Like, just with that live thing we did with the dance party. If I didn't tell people to request I didn't tell people to boost 5000 SATs more for each song. I didn't come up with that. But I accepted it. Dave Jones: As you're breaking, you're breaking the rules based podcasting order. Adam Curry: This international international rules of podcasting rules based order. Dave Jones: Yeah, exactly. In the in the internet in the international rules based podcasting order. We're like North Korea.

1:10:25 Adam Curry: Yeah, we're lobbing missiles everywhere. There does Dave Jones: that. Fancy Japan mostly. They were in the air at one point. Adam Curry: I just want to do a couple of quick boosts that we've been receiving since since starting Dred Scott who of course we love 33,333 He wants a birthday shout out. Well, of course. Happy birthday. Happy birthday drab. I think was his panties that were left on the turntable yesterday. I'm Dave Jones: not quite sure. Hey, now Hey, Adam Curry: thank you to phone boy. Cuz I I did interrupt his show, or we interrupted his show on the stream. 6969 sent that twice. Actually. He said never thought I'd be a lead in for the pod father on a Saturday, Phoenix and I appreciate all you're doing to advance podcasting. Come experience the Lotus effect for yourself at oops, at Lotus effect dot show.

1:11:22 And thank you very much for letting us letting us break in like that. We just shot in here sir Spencer 16969 Thanks again. Dave. For the wonderful time Sunday. I'm bowls with buds. Thanks, Adam for the club 30 throwback in the rowdy boardroom dance party. Yes, anyone can run an unbroken, not everyone is willing but for minimal effort. Everyone is capable. I think that's actually kind of true. They do minimum, a man's just as much to learn how to set up a podcast is to set that up. Dave Jones: People set up a stereo system. That's not easy, either. I remember Adam Curry: those days. You got to strip the wires for the speaker connectors.

1:12:05 Dave Jones: Yeah. And your mom would always call you and ask you wouldn't How do you turn it on? You Adam Curry: turn it off? Are you connected properly? Watch cable. Okay, let's see. Well, we'll do more, we'll do more boost in a second. Dave Jones: Added enclosure. So dad was working with Dan Benjamin on a on a project of his and he needed he needed a way to Adam Curry: are you an advisor? Dave Jones: Yes, yeah. I'm an 8am, an unpaid adviser. The the API, he needed a way to call the API and say, Okay, I've got an iTunes ID and an enclosure URL. I don't know any other way to reach outside. He's like I got I want. I know the enclosure URL of the episode I need to get. And I know the iTunes ID of the feed. So I given those two things. I want to be able to give them to the index to the API and have in Have you returned the show the episode. So we did that. So that's interesting. That's in there now. So if you have if you hit a scenario where you're like, I don't know the episode GUID, or any other the title or really anything else about the episode, all I know is the enclosure URL. You can now submit you can now

1:13:36 add that on as an extra parameter to the episodes by iTunes ID your episodes by feed ID endpoints. And it will give you back the correct episode information. Adam Curry: Okay. Yes, that sounds like a cool endpoint. Dave Jones: That's pretty neat. We hang in Adam Curry: that all night. Oh, episode. Dave Jones: We were moving forward then. The API. Adam Curry: Good. pretty rich, getting pretty rich there, Dave? Dave Jones: stuff with it? Yeah, you can do a lot of stuff with it. I don't think I even talked about on the show that you can now get live items back from the episodes endpoint. So if you call the episodes by feed ID endpoint to give it a feed ID or a feed URL. It will hand you back the episodes and the live items. If if the show is live, has live out of scheduled or live currently, you will get those back to there's there's a lot of stuff that I only post about, like when we change the API. I'm only posting about it on podcast index dot social, and I forget to talk about it on the show.

1:14:46 Adam Curry: No, this was good. There was something else I saw on the GitHub. An author tag you were talking about. I think just some So you're Dave Jones: ready to talk about publisher? Adam Curry: Publisher? Yeah. Publisher author. Yes. Dave Jones: So there's a proposal for a tag. This is namespace talk. You want to drop that? Oh, Adam Curry: I'm sorry. We haven't done that in quite a while. And now it's time for some hot namespace talk. Yeah, so I heard the dance party last night. Yeah. Jennifer came right in, man. She's like, she's partying down.

1:15:30 Dave Jones: It is 730. On Saturday. Nice. I mean, that's appropriate. Adam Curry: It's okay. For now. Yeah. Dave Jones: So that there was a proposal for a publisher, a way to track publishers of shows instead of just simply the, the, the host of the show. So if you have, like a way to for you to go in and say, Okay, I want to see all of the podcasts by I don't know what at wondery or luminary, or NPR just made NPR, NPR is NPR. Some of them are tagged correctly, or tagged in a way that you can do that some of them aren't. If there was a tag there that was specifically for that. In the so he gives the reference of the iTunes author tag, which is supposed to kind of be that way. But it's, it's a little too freeform. And so the freeform of the of it. Again, not a word, but the free form 80 of it is a little problematic, because you can't it gets messy.

1:16:41 Is it? You know, if you have to, if you have two publishers, let's just say it's a joint effort between the New York Times and cereal Yeah. Are you just gonna have freeform text in their New York Times and cereal? And then another one may say cereal a New York Times? No, that's Adam Curry: not that's not that's not structured data Dave Jones: is not structured data. So he proposed a way to do it by, you know, will in a more structured way where you have multiple entries there where it's for each publisher, enclosed in sort of a parent tag. And then you can ease more easily aggregate that and then go back after the fact and say, show me all the podcasts by the New York Times and you get them all. Together. think there needs more comments on that though?

1:17:27 Adam Curry: Okay. I have a link to it in the in the show notes. Dave Jones: Because I'm a little I think it's not. It needs that it. I see what he's doing. And I like it, but it does need some work. And I think there just needs to be more voices in there commenting on it would be good. Also in the namespace. On that side of things, let's see what actually didn't me. I didn't have another namespace you get anything else I get find this? Adam Curry: Yes. I wanted to give another plug for the transcript search tool, which Steven B put together. He needs a domain name right now. It's transcript das search dot versal dot app. Not a great name. No, but it's it's how we started everything off. And he uses that kind of as his building place.

1:18:17 This thing is outstanding. And I'm not sure how to integrate it into public life. I use it all the time. I mean, you literally type in A C podcasting. 2.0 and you can search the directory, that was my request. Okay, there it is podcasting. 2.0. And then you can say Alright, now I'm going to do a search term. So let's give me a search term. That's crazy. Dave, what's something that we could use in our Dave Jones: show? Adam Curry: Yeah, in our show, yeah. Something that's gonna show up once or twice. Dave Jones: Just only once or twice. Oh my gosh. Okay, cake. See, aka Jenkins Adam Curry: Well turns out episode 118 one occurrence, and I can click on the timecode and then I can hit play these things that was just icing on the cake for a corporation to score brownie points. Oh, come on. That's pretty rad. Episode 100 streamers and dreamers 158 17 Unknown: craft services table eating cake and drinking Prosecco.

1:19:25 Adam Curry: Even got it from from a clip. This is good. Dave Jones: That is red. is rad. Correct? Yeah, Adam Curry: let's see if RAD is in there. Let's see rad. Rad. Seems like there's a lot in there. Also picks up rod Do you know the traditional way maybe if I do it in quotes, I wonder how well that search is. Let me see. Yeah, nothing when I do it and in quotes nothing. How about radio and now it doesn't, doesn't do the Boolean unfortunate Ellie just says it's beautiful something something needs to be done with this tool other than just, I use it. I use it all the time, particularly when divorce acts as a dad. Now I can just go Yeah, you did. And I boom, click click, you saw a fast I did that.

1:20:20 Dave Jones: That's really very Adam Curry: impressive is very, very impressive. And firstly, it needs a domain names to even be first of all these domain name. It's just it's it's fantastic. It's a great tool. Dave Jones: I found Okay, so I found this the so we have we have phase six here. And we've got a few tags, I think we need to start to coalesce around what what we think is going to get to has a chance to make it in there. Adam Curry: Okay, what was the Dave Jones: list? There is? Value see the secret message. There's the state tag, which I'm sure Daniel has a comment about the name of that. The state tag is just some way to identify where weather this some things about this feed that don't really fit into other categories. So things like is it free? Is it premium? That kind of that kind of thing? As it is a paid for feed? Let's see what the let's see what I've got in there already. Yeah, so is it? Is it true? Is this under a trial? Is the podcast on hiatus? Is it a subscription only? Is it? Is it an under a trial period by the published by the hosting platform, sort of some stuff about the feed that you

1:21:51 might want to know. But it's you could group them together. And this may not be a great way to do it. I'm just I just threw this out there for comment, then you have John Spurlock's events. Adam Curry: Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. Well, that really needs some work the events tag. Dave Jones: It's got a lot of commentary on it right here. Okay. And, and I feel like we need to start trying to decide whether or not that can actually get get refined to in a way that everybody's happy with to get into Phase six. The C D has guests, James grillin. proposed a tag. There's just a simple Boolean tag. Patek podcast co lon has guests, yes or no, right. And it's just, it's just what it says on the box. A lot of people seem to like this idea.

1:22:52 Adam Curry: Yeah, sounds good. That sounds good to me. Dave Jones: My first thought when I saw it was math. And then like, and then I thought about it. And I'm like, you know, that actually is pretty good idea. There's really not another way to get that. And a lot of these tags are about it seems like in phase six, there's a lot of stuff around just giving information that is not, maybe it's not necessary, it's not critical to the show. But it's helpful to have Dara say, discovery. Like, I can see this feeding. So these fall under a category to me of, of bits of information that you as the podcaster may want to let other let the world know. It's it's not. It's sort of like, like, like the person tag, or the location tag, it's it's just, I can put this into my show, I can mark this in my show at my hosting company that gives a signal to the world about what they can expect to find in my show. I found those sorts of things to be valuable, because, you know, some people just don't, they don't like interview shows. They're just not that like, it's I'm never gonna listen to an interview show. I don't really listen to hardly

1:24:23 any interview shows. I guess it's just not my thing. And so if it's a show that has guests, I'm probably not gonna listen to it. And I can see that being just more you know, ways to let the universe know about what are the sort of the framework of what your show is? Again, not not critical, but helpful. Um, hold Adam Curry: on one second. Let me let me tell you, like, let me test this. Dave Jones: My first thought when I saw it was math Adam Curry: They go long live the ISO bought Dave Jones: the ISO but thought I said, Man, they thought that was the most the right way to say, man.

1:25:10 Adam Curry: Doesn't matter. I'm still loving it. Dave Jones: And the remote item tag, I really think out of the whole batch, the remote item tag is the one I want to get in there the most. Adam Curry: I'm with you on that. I like that idea. Dave Jones: I think if nothing else, we need to get the remote item tag in there. Events. To me, it goes in this order remote item events. And then there's list mediums. And I think those list mediums need to go in there as well. Adam Curry: Yeah, yeah, that's a good one. Because we need we need. We need a lot. We need something for that. I'm looking at the music side project.com. And the search is just not music. The search populates with everything. It doesn't. Yeah, that's inherently not right. And I think that, I don't know, maybe if you just search for any term in them, that you think would be music, I get podcast.

1:26:14 Dave Jones: Oh, what if you search for podcasting today? No, yeah, you get a podcast. That's not That's not the way I think it should be. No, he intended that. Adam Curry: Is there a way to only search for music? Dave Jones: That I thought that's what it would do? Yeah. But Adam Curry: how do we have an API endpoint? Unknown: I thought we did. Adam Curry: Maybe not. Yikes. Maybe we do. Here's another question. Is wavelike Tada. We Dave Jones: do we do, don't we? Adam Curry: I don't know. I'm not in charge of that. Dave Jones: Wave. Wave like is not pod pinging? They're not no Adam Curry: but they but they are adding stuff to the to the index.

1:27:01 Dave Jones: Hmm Yeah, well, we're Yeah, we're picking it up. Okay. They submit Yeah. That their Gosh, net now you know what now I feel caught off guard because they may be pod paying me who runs this Adam Curry: a I don't know who runs anything who runs the show here? Dave Jones: Podcast? No idea. Wow. I have no idea what anything. That's good. This is good. Good question. I'm literally ever saw Michael ever wave like a potty.

1:27:45 Adam Curry: That's so funny. That's so funny. Dave Jones: I see. No. I see no pod paying that I've ever sent to Mike. I think he's just submitting. All right. Adam Curry: Because I'm super pumped. And we're going to have these guys on pretty soon, right? Dave Jones: Yeah, the after we after we screwed them. After I screwed them over. We're Adam Curry: gonna have on eventually. Right. We'll fix that. Yeah. Dave Jones: Okay. Yeah, I am kind of glad that they did. I screwed that up. And they didn't show up. Adam Curry: And that would have been even worse. Yeah. Would have been worse. We had sorry, by the way we Dave Jones: understand Adam, Adam Curry: so I was just Yeah, right. Well, I switched to a different a different internet connection. That worked. Okay.

1:28:26 But the amount of people who said hey, I'm available, I can do it like Sam Sethi like hey, I can do I can jump on right now. I couldn't do anything that Dave can do. I'm like, no. Dave Jones: Let's see how it is. Sam you can be okay. Exactly. You know, my back. Adam Curry: And I'm like, No, this is not gonna happen. That's not ever gonna happen. This is the show. Dave Jones: Hey, James Sam's ever ever out of town? Give me a call Adam Curry: Yeah, that's what your for your friends as well. The duty you read in Dave Jones: the back. So that's right. Adam Curry: You got thanks for people I do have. I do have another small item that I'm not quite sure. I just want to bring it up. Because, you know, I've been looking at noster I've been on noster I have a you know, my key is there whatever. I go on from time to time. And I'm sensing hostility. I don't like it. And I'll tell you what it is. It goes like this.

1:29:27 Podcasting to point out value for value stocks, everything should be zaps and wishes okay, because you know, like whatever people can say whatever they want, because now this Dave Jones: thing they you just said is this a tone that you're picking up? Or is this something that was actually said? Adam Curry: No, it was said it was said that way? There was there was a thread? Yeah, I mean, of course I am interpreting the actual tone of voice, which is what I translated to appropriately. Yes, yes. And of course, Oscar over the fountain immediately makes zapping available I'm on fountain, to the fountain wallet. And I'm, I'm just not feeling good about this. I'm not sure what it is, other than it feels like Ellen, Ellen URL mafia all over again. You know, like Henry, there was even a thread like, you know, noster should replace RSS feeds or whatever. There's all kinds of stuff and and I'm just like, I'm not worried about any of that.

1:30:29 But I want to be able to harness the the excitement over zaps. If there's a valid place for that in, in podcasting value for value streaming stuff, I just don't see it. And it's kind of bugged me. Dave Jones: I mean, it's been irritating me too. And it's so this, I saw the RSS thing. There's this cult, this, Adam Curry: who used to use the C word C word you may use cult? No. Dave Jones: Maybe Maybe I started to say culture. Oh, cool. Maybe called is a root word of culture is called. It is a twofer. I get them both. Yes. Right. So there's this, there's this sort of like, I feel like there's a I've been spending time on nostra to, to, I need to understand this thing and what and what's happening over there? And what's being said, and I just want I don't like, don't like, there being all this motion. And I don't understand what's happening.

1:31:32 Adam Curry: Yeah, there you go. That's exactly it. Yeah, it's like, Dave Jones: it's like this, like a bunch of loud things, driving by your house, you know, for 15 minutes, eventually, you're gonna get out and look out the window. So this spending time to me, I feel like there is this culture of the sugar daddy culture in Austria, and I think it comes from Dorsey the fact that that Dorsey is bankrolling a bunch of stuff over there. Yeah. Agree. And that that's where you get this sort of like, I'm going to pay a bounty of, of a million sets, if somebody makes RSS feeds on noster. It's like, why this is, it's just a dumb idea. To me, it's the whole it's the it's just dumb. I mean, there are, so you're going to ingest an RSS feed, and then post it on noster. Like, what is it? What's the point? And I don't even know, I just don't understand this. And we've already we already went down this road. That is, I think people, people in the not in the Ellen URL nostra group may not understand that we've already thought a lot of this stuff through. Yeah, we've fought the battle to get some to get this stuff the way that it operates now, and that is, you, you it is not the right solution to force some to force the listener to create an invoice every time they want to pay you. It's key

1:33:03 send is much as much as people may not like he said it is the right answer to this problem. And being able to, and there should not have to be any name resolution, that putting a a node ID into a feed with key send is the lamest and meanest solution. And it solves this problem perfectly. The app doesn't have to do hardly any work at all. It just, it just looks at the node ID and boom, it's done. You don't have to do all this crazy Ellen, your LP. Look at your nip 50 sevens. And all this guy's like, you got to do all that. And so that's 10 splits in their feed. I mean, look at Think about how hard that is for the app.

1:33:51 Adam Curry: How about this? Is there a way to make a bridge so people if they're really want to send a zap, they can zap a podcast and it hits the bridge, and that splits it into keys. And that's something Brian of London would build, by the way. It's one of those Rube Goldberg things. Dave Jones: I'm just I'm just not interested. Okay. I'm not interested in the, to me. Here's not noster has a people that I respect like Alex Gleason have some interest in noster. And so I'm not going to say that it's a pile of crap. But I just feel like the use cases they're trying to put it to my opinion is the the social media use case was the worst.

1:34:42 Adam Curry: It's probably the worst one they could have used. I totally agree. Dave Jones: It should have been something it could have should have come out of the gate with a different use case. And because this this thing is just not compelling to me. I get on my app And I don't want to be like Debbie downer, like, beat this thing down. Because I don't want people doing that to the early work of of what we're doing here either things that we're running with scissors, they're running with scissors. I want to be fair. But it's just I don't see the point of a lot of this. A lot of these use cases as the way they're being implemented because you have the I get on my noster app. I mean, I forget what the Damas and half the time I've got, I get on there, I start to scroll my timeline, and then things begin are popping up. Like after the fact, like, there were five seconds Adam Curry: the relay start to kick in.

1:35:43 Dave Jones: And then and then I don't know where I'm at in my timeline anymore, and no. Okay, so let's scroll back up to the top, scroll by start start again. And then people's names are showing up as just pub keys and generic avatars. They're just permanent that way. And then, and I tap on, then it does the name resolution to find out who they are. It's just not a great experience Adam Curry: I'm seeing in the chat room or head saying no, no, no, it's easy to do. It took less than a weekend to add Ellen Euro fall back. If Kishen fails, the guys that get Alby are suggesting it if we need to stop something, I need you to say it now. Why exactly is it not? Is it too too much overhead for apps to do this.

1:36:29 Dave Jones: So So if if you have if you have to force breeze to on a show like ours, which which has nine splits, if you have to force breeze, to do an Ellen URL p resolution nine times every minute, and boosts on top of that. That's not That's not just a lot of a lot of load on the server. Imagine if you have 100 listeners at all listening to your podcast at the same time, which is where we want this thing to be Yeah, imagine, imagine no agenda. You have Oh goodness. 700 people listening live at the same time. 2000 Adam Curry: Let's make it 2000. Again, Dave Jones: let's say 2000 people listening live on breeze.

1:37:20 Every one of those breeze apps is sending a streaming payment once a minute and having to do pretend potentially nine or 10 l in your LP invoice generations and look up processes through nip 57. That's a that's called a DDoS attack. Adam Curry: Thank you. That's exactly that's exactly what it would be. Yeah, it's just not both ends. By the way. You'd be dossing your own app, Dave Jones: your is too much overhead. You can't you can't do that. And the nature of the streaming payments is is critical booster great booster grams are awesome. But the streaming per minute payments, that's where the lifeblood of the future lightening value for value economy comes from, because that is how people I forget to boost it. And I'm listening to the show. But I always know that that 100 SATs minute that I selected, that's always going to be ping, ping, ping, ping ping, right. And I don't have to, I don't have to remember in people, once a minute you the podcasters looking at their dashboard is Ping, ping ping to get income coming in. And then also it's Adam Curry: okay, that's a good point. People who who want to integrate and this arrowhead is not going to stop who thinks zapping is important, that's great. But your your fucking everybody else because you can't do splits. You're not going to do that no one's going to be zapping nine different times and

1:38:51 nine different values. So you're circumventing the whole process. And I would I would also encourage other apps and services to consider that you're really undermining it. Dave Jones: You're podcasting is not social media. They're correct. Adam Curry: And I love zapping as as a replacement for like I think that's a great idea. It's fantastic to I mean, and that's where it's appropriate. Makes a lot of and I liked it that it's getting people into the into the habit of returning some value for something I like that a lot. I really do. But stay in your lane, because it's an it's not a we put a lot of work into the whole infrastructure. And you know, when I hear the get Alby and everyone wants to do this, I think they're riding a train and they're screwing themselves and other people with it.

1:39:42 Dave Jones: I agree to and I think that I fully understand what you're saying. I think you're right. The zapping is a great mechanic for returning value for a value for value ecos system in general, it makes sense. The way that the way that noster it the social media aspect of nostrils designed the zapping makes sense. That's Yes, podcasting. They're not the same. keep them separate. This just doesn't make sense for podcasting. We've, we've, we've been through this we've done this is where two and a half years into this noster is brand new. This is not the same thing.

1:40:25 Adam Curry: Yeah, and the main thing, and this is what I want to say to our head who's saying no, it's the same as a boost. No, it's not. Because we have a split flow is not the same as a boost. I'm just I, you know, as a wallet provider get Alby makes total sense. They can do whatever they want, you know, they want to do Aaron, what is the what is the API payment thing? Was LSAT? Yeah, they there'll be many applications for LSAT. Absolutely. Fountain, questionable. So I'm just saying if you want to break the system by by having people circumvent the splits. Have at it, but you're going to lose out in the long run in the long run.

1:41:18 Dave Jones: I think there's a general issue here where this has always been the word and I just want to be, I want to step back and be gracious to everybody for a minute. I think there is a a, there's always been within this project. There have been Bitcoiners coming to podcasting and podcasting coming to Bitcoin. Yeah. And so the those there's a natural sort of missing a natural, a natural, like a Venn diagram. And they overlap in the middle, but there's a lot of places they don't. So there's there's going to be a natural tendency for one side to do things one way the other side to do things the other way. And in podcasting 2.0 We have to make we have to be in the middle of that of that Venn diagram and make those things mesh. Yeah, because the Bitcoin people are gonna see things one way and be like, Yeah, let's do that. To me, this is the fundamental mistake of of, of forcing alien URL. Elon, you RLP down and down podcasting, throat, it's not gonna work we've already thought this through. So just Adam Curry: just know that we have looked at we have looked at it is not necessarily going to be a great idea.

1:42:34 Dave Jones: Yeah, and podcasters also have ideas that don't fit within the other side. So we have to mediate that as well. So yeah, I think I think there's just a bit especially the bit the Bitcoin people, because there's money involved. And what you see it with these bounties and that kind of thing, that they, they just want to run off and do something and it's like you guys, you mean you can't, she's not the way it works. And you got to slow down and get some consensus here. And think about, think about the the industry and the audience that you're trying to address with the technology that you're making. If you're, if you're trying to address problems within podcasting, or music, or other types of things, you need to understand that industry fully before you dive in and start building something and trying to propose a standard standards aren't bad, but you have to at least understand what the audience needs before you make it.

1:43:28 Adam Curry: I guess now, I know how Marco feels. Right? Because I really felt like people were bullying. You know, it's like, Nah, man, this is the way to go. This is the way it is right now. I don't think so. Dave Jones: Anyway, you know, I know some people did that to Marco that I you know, we we told the people early on to chill out and stop being that way. You know, I don't think I think his problems over those people not not with yes, no, Adam Curry: no, no, no, I know that. I know. Dave Jones: He made he made a comment about standards. And you know, we Adam Curry: do we have a standard there's lots of there's, Dave Jones: I think those are gonna be the other thing I said we we we briefly entertained calling things standards and made Adam Curry: by requests from from hosting companies, by the way, it was a request to do that. And I think we even tried to I certainly tried to pick that up and it just died on the vine. And And honestly, I'm happy.

1:44:28 Dave Jones: Their specs, these are these justifications and you can either do them or not, you don't nobody's forcing anybody to do anything. Adam Curry: Yeah, exactly. You're all podcasting. 2.0 It's just more podcasting is not breaking anything. It's not changing anything. It's not making a new standard. And we're gonna we have some interesting meeting scheduled with people who are kind of into that I'm not sure I would even be for calling it a standard or W three C. You know, I love the way everything works. Now. We're the boss, and everyone else can pounce like that. I like that system I mean it's so far it's worked out really well it's been a very open process and it's been fantastic you know and the minute you bring you know like official structure into it I was like oh that's gonna ruin it Dave Jones: you can Yeah, that's right. Oh airhead says landing addresses are no longer only Elon URL that's right because because we booked that system initially to get key sand in there as well so that's right I said I mean this this stuff has been thought through Adam Curry: Yeah. Anyway, let's take a few people as we move towards a buck 45 here okay, we got the SIR Spencer stuff we got blueberry 17,776 Big freedom boost sending boost pilling karma. Tonight I will attempt giving comedian Sam Tripoli the

1:45:59 PC 2.0 equivalent of telling someone that 911 hijackers were identified by the passports found at the base of the Twin Towers. Okay, sounds great. Oh, and there's Phoenix. The better half of a phone boy. Also 6969 SAS Thank you pod father for all you're doing lady Phoenix and Lord phone boy the Lowe's effect. Come for the shenanigans stay for the party. We really appreciate you guys letting us bust in here. Eric P. P 33,333. About an hour ago Dred Scott 5555 says Adam was really having fun yesterday was great to witness. It was great to have you all there as well. Dred Scott also, the only guy I'll check it again, but the only guy ever to use the tally coin unchained payment system that we have so proudly displayed by request. He did send us let's see. Holy crap. drab. I see nuts.

1:47:00 Dave Jones: When did he fall in the keyboard? Adam Curry: 224,035. saps Unknown: sock 20 is blades only Impala Adam Curry: shouldn't add to the tally coin yesterday. Dave Jones: JB you do too much. Adam Curry: I really do much. And we give him we only give him like a 5% cut on the split for chapters. Well, I do give it on every single podcast I do. So maybe he's able to recycle some of it. And let's see, chat F 3333. Hey, I only requested Ride the Lightning after someone requested milkshake. Yeah, that's right. That was for you a special milkshake. Milkshake. So yes, chat F No. 3333 A Chris, you know 9013 You can't just go out there do pole work whenever you want. You first have to call up and put in a poll request. Yeah. Dred Scott boosting Dave's poll works 5555 your poll work was outstanding. I've been told and there's dread with a pre boost 55,555 or dread.

1:48:07 Dave Jones: I'm gonna start sending this back. Yeah. Yeah, Adam Curry: yeah, we got your and that's another beautiful thing. We don't need any permission to send him money. Dave Jones: That's right. And he didn't even stop us. That's the beautiful thing about Kison Adam Curry: lyceum. Which of course is Martin Linda's Coke, a replay of yesterday's Liberty boost regarding and those 2112 Regarding the song 55 million Frenchmen. And Benjamin Bellinis. Post music tip. This is always so cryptic, happy music. radio.com. Okay, thank you very much, Martin. Let's see what else do I have? I think I think that's all it is. I know, you'll of course have all of the all of the booths from yesterday, I think I think pretty much everybody so we can run through them pretty quick, because a lot of requests there.

1:48:53 So Dave Jones: I grabbed the boosts. I didn't try to get the boost from today or anything. I'm just gonna stick and read the boost that I had prepared for Friday's show. Yeah, that's probably good. Because I got everybody else. Yeah. And then we'll sort it out later. Yeah. Well, we had a we had $200 from Oscar Mary over fountain. Oh, Unknown: wow. 20 is Blake on am Paula thank you, Oscar. Dave Jones: Very kind enough always to support us monthly. Appreciate Oscar. Thank you, brother. And we got some booster grants. We got 22 to 22 big road ducks from Todd in Northern Virginia. Just boosting it to eggs can't stop won't stop Adam Curry: don't stop don't stop Dave Jones: don't let anybody make you stop. Don't Adam Curry: ever ever, Dave Jones: ever mere mortals podcast. 2222 Road ducks he says no secrets between board members spilled Buzzsprout beans Dave Buzzsprout being Buzzsprout Adam Curry: beans. That's about boost boost boost.

1:49:57 Dave Jones: I didn't know I had bus route beans Adam Curry: must have must be something You alluded to somewhere Dave Jones: okay, I don't even remember I'm sorry. I don't remember. more memorable character back again 5555 through found and he says, Congrats on getting to your first Bitcoin meetup. Dave, Texas slim will be at the one here in Brisbane next week. I'm super pumped on my birthday as well. Oh, cool. I'm going to Brisbane, Adam Curry: Brisbane, Brisbane, Brisbane, Brisbane, Brisbane, Dave Jones: Brisbane, this was it. Yeah. Whoosh. 12498 the fountain nappy says bye podcasting. 2.0x go podcasting just keep it at the suggested speed.

1:50:43 Adam Curry: Yeah, we will go podcast Dave Jones: close to Texas slim going all the way down to Australia for Adam Curry: he's doing beef initiative down under. He's doing the same. He's been really getting a lot of attention. Dave Jones: And he's preaching the gospel. Like to the far flung reaches of the Earth. It was a Adam Curry: pretty cool article about him and ABC, which is Australian Broadcasting Corporation, M M, five M. And they said, A man who's who's who goes by Texas limb. And we asked him for his full name. He said that's all you need to know tax asleep. Like you don't need to know I'm Texas slavers. My Mama knows me by Texas. flim that's enough.

1:51:26 Dave Jones: Takes us asleep. But it Adam Curry: was interesting to see because you know, of course there was Bitcoiners there and you know, like a typical beef initiative meetup and talking about purchasing, you know, the beef with Bitcoin and what the Australian media but glommed on to is, you know, this undertone up feels a lot like the sovereign man movement, like no, no, no, no, no, I did have to do something negative. Dave Jones: They always do that. Yeah. Clark in 25,001 SATs through fountain switching from Fiat cookbooks to boosting every episode up the good work and see it the next meetup Dave, that's my buddy. Adam Curry: Oh, nice. He was at the Bitcoin meetup Dave Jones: that we wrote together that's powered Oh nice.

1:52:11 Adam Curry: You take the flatbed you don't drive that outside you're 15 minutes city is that the Dave Jones: Yeah, nothing in Birmingham is 15 That's not even you can't even do 15 minutes in so I went from contracts 13579 13 festivity now through pod versus finally time again to listen to the podcast and boost alright, we agree on the listening speed it somehow feels wrong to listen faster than 1x and cut pauses boost believer Thank you 16 969 From Hey citizen through pod verse. He says another great show fellas when I grow up I want to be just like you too.

1:52:53 Adam Curry: Oh, oh how you doing booster just like us. Dave Jones: So sweet. Mere Mortals podcast to 2222 from found through fountain he says Bitcoin meetup update takes a slam is awesome. And I need to analyze some of my food choices. Also bitcoin is awesome. Go Bitcoin ing. We so I see. We had to lead up to the meetup. Yeah. And then the Adam Curry: actual meetup themselves. I think Slim is now on his way to Thailand. Dave Jones: Wow. Yeah, this world tour. Well, he Adam Curry: he was he intended to retire to Thailand before he kind of came out of retirement to do this beef initiative. Because Thailand is interesting. I'm not talking Bangkok.

1:53:35 Although that is that is fun for some things. But more like Shang Mei Xiang. I've been to Thailand in a documentary. They're really nice, really nice people. A very just sweet population very giving very open. They love their royal family, you know, so they're, they're very, they're nationalists. Food is fantastic. It's cheap, cheap to live there. It's, I understand you, the Thai culture is really wonderful. Dave Jones: I've got a friend of a friend who lived in Thailand as a teacher for gosh, seven or eight years. And every time he came back to the US, he was like, Oh, my God, things are so expensive here. He said it was very cheap there. Lady said you could you could have a big meal with five of your buddies Jen.

1:54:29 You know, it would cost you as much as like a meal for two here Adam Curry: unless you go to the no hands restaurant in Bangkok, which is a whole nother story. Okay, you know what, you know what the no hands restaurant is so so so the food is in a table is kind of like it's a round table. And there's to bench seats comfortable, you know, pillows and everything. So you and your friends sit near the food and behind you will be your servant. Who then who then will get your food prepared and feed it to you? Dave Jones: Whoa, Adam Curry: typically naked. Oh, it's that kind of it was a long time ago. But it was a documentary. Funny enough Dave Jones: is it sounds like a plot of a movie is what it sounds like. Yeah, Adam Curry: yeah, that's when you know well if you remember faces of death they actually don't remember that the monkey head sticking out and they chop the head off and they ate the brains from the live monkey remember that?

1:55:31 Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah, that was VHS tape. Adam Curry: 15/50 generation VHS tape. Exactly. Dave Jones: I was convinced that was real. Like this is all real man. This was great Yale, our buddy yell from Vienna. sent us 155,555 sets Unknown: Sakala Dias Blaze on am Paula. Thank you. Thank you. Dave Jones: He says hey, gents, thank you for your courage from Vienna but disgusting native ad with Austrian finance journaux Nico jilts. We've got a new 2.0 enabled podcast using substack fix the money.net with interviews, prophecy tutorials, and commentary from the Bitcoin lobbying world. Thank you both for your encouragement and patience in GitHub and Mastodon mercy and Dunker Nice. Thank you yo, appreciate it. 6969 from a citizen to pod verse he says. Do you think sites like no agenda social.com will have a way to receive boost the way Podcasts can.

1:56:39 Adam Curry: I don't see why. Well how about zaps? Dave Jones: daps Yeah, yeah, that's That's great. There again. That's that's the thing zaps find for social media. It's slow motion. It's it's fine. Yeah. Not good for podcasts. No. Yes. Don't don't put boosts into your into your social. Don't put yourselves into podcasting. Matthew says Adam Curry: I'm with you all add my two cents right to it. Dave Jones: Another another 6969 from Hey, citizens, he says a feature request for the podcast apps, streaming sets using the DeVore act multiplier. You listen at one and a half speed you stream one and a half.

1:57:21 Adam Curry: I agree with that. I think that's the way to go. This is a great idea. Now you're cooking. Dave Jones: Yeah, you pay for it. Yeah, boy logs and it's 100,000 SAS through pod verse. He says thanks for all your hard work. I'm showing my partner how V for V works by sending this one now. Thank you. Oh, cool. 100,000 sets. Adam Curry: Wow, you know what you get for that? Bolo. Unknown: Sakala 20 is Blaze on I am Paula Dave Jones: Ameet to SC 32,023 cents Palindrome there 3202335 vs. Podcasting live from floss conference in Tel Aviv. A P dot C A P dot a hammock or H A. Okay, I'm gonna have to read this as a website. A P dot h amakor.org. dot i l go podcasting.

1:58:12 Adam Curry: Okay, go podcast. Dave Jones: Thank you. Todd Cochran. 150,420 sets Unknown: off 20 is Blaze ohm am Paula. Dave Jones: He's you're showing off now. 50% of what was said on the last show was seriously deer in the headlights discuss. What did we say? Adam Curry: I don't know all about about I don't know. That all he said is not only wrote Dave Jones: now he says growth in podcasting is flat as a pancake. And based on calls. I've been having podcasting companies are in trouble. That said best time ever to be a podcaster as audience numbers are growing amongst fewer shows, but go podcasting?

1:58:58 Adam Curry: Yeah, I'm with you on that. Okay, when he says mean when he says flat? I mean, that's the growth of the companies I guess. Dave Jones: I guess. I don't know. Maybe he just means the number of the number of new shows outside of the free. Adam Curry: Yeah, yeah, that's a bit yeah. New customers for podcast hosts. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're gonna have churn. You're gonna have people leaving you need to get new people in. I don't know. I always hear Buzzsprout always has another 5000 people every week. Dave Jones: Yeah, it must. It must be. If it's like yeah, I guess they're tied together. I mean, you're it's a beautiful thing. Because you're, there's that direct your customer, you're the growth of your company is the growth of your customer. There's funny money in between. Exactly. It's a very natural thing. Thank you, Todd. Appreciate it. I don't even remember what we said at the beginning of this show, much less last year.

1:59:56 Adam Curry: We talked about our own lives of ourselves as usual as you do on a podcast. Let's talk about herself. Dave Jones: lyceum. 1776 He says Adam and Dave, I listened to Sophie Tucker singing 50 million Frenchmen can't be wrong. After reading Benjamin Bellamy's blog, yeah, Adam Curry: like I just read that one. I think a religious one we had Yeah, we had that one. Dave Jones: Okay, yep. All right, we got it. Well, chemistry bloggers. Adam Curry: I was gonna say I was waiting for him. Where is he? Dave Jones: Dignified, Dave and abiding Adam. Building a medium that provides the environment for humanity to coalesce around since making broadcasters is no easy feat if you ever want to take a load off, after all that digital heavy lifting, kick back with the AI doc cooking podcast, inspired by the best infotainment purveyors in the realm and hosted by Kentish rock and Rolla, Gregory Forman, who always keeps it three by four, yo CSB whoosh Adam Curry: moves. Thank you CSB. He's always there, man. You can count on him. He's very consistent.

2:01:01 Dave Jones: They're getting more and more complex every time Adam Curry: now. It's okay. We'll take it we appreciate we we appreciate everyone who has been boosting us now you have some monthlies before we close out the segment. Yeah. Dave Jones: I've got I've got a Michael Kimmerer and $5.33 I've got a drip Scott at $15 The Unstoppable drip Scott Lesley Martin it $2 Christopher Raymer $10 Aaron Renaud $5 Pedro gun calvess $5 Scott Jalbert $12 Chad Pharoah 12 $20.22 Martin Linda scope $1 and Mark Graham $1. And that's our group. Adam Curry: And thank you all so much for delivering the value.

2:01:42 It is really appreciated, especially yesterday show but also everyone who showed up today and in the chat room that has been contributing if you want to support podcasting 2.0 the podcast and of course, the index, go to podcast index.org. Scroll down to the bottom you'll see two red donate buttons. One is for your Fiat fund coupons via PayPal, and the other one is that tally coin that only Dred Scott uses. But of course we'd love for you to try a modern podcast app works with all your old podcast, no problem, you can export from Apple export from any podcast, including overcast whatever it is, even from one of the newer podcast apps, you can try them all. Export your OPML file or your podcasts, whatever it's called. It's different per app, and just import it into the new one. And you got Presto Wallah. You've got like a rabbit out of a hat. You've got all of your subscriptions right there. And you can now actually purchase little bits of Bitcoin Satoshis in think for apps we have breeze we have fountain we have pod verse. What am I forgetting here? I know I'm forgetting something. Dave helped me. What the Where you can you can buy SATs in Fountain pod verse. Anything with get Alby I guess? breeze to freeze?

2:03:08 First one, I'm sure there's a fourth one you can buy by SATs right through Moon pay right in the app? I don't remember that. I you know, we need to we need to do Apps page. Yeah, I'm drawing a blank. I don't think there's a there's not a fourth. There's no. There's no step four. Dave Jones: I don't know what you may be. I think I know what you're talking about. Oh, no, I think I know what you're talking about. I don't? Yeah. It's not out yet. Adam Curry: What am I talking about? I mean, I'm not Todd Cochran. I don't have secrets. Dave Jones: Because I can't Well, I can't think of anything else that is Adam Curry: it doesn't matter. Just go ahead and figure it out.

2:03:50 Go to new podcast apps.com and get some things you can boost us you can join in the fun clearly. It's a lot of fun, because you get your name mentioned a lot in your in your message read. And you get to have standing amongst everybody else in the listening audience. We appreciate that. Thank you for your thinking. I'm not thinking your desire. We've received exactly zero SATs from Zion ever. But he raised $6 million. Yeah, there you go. There you go. That's how it goes. I wouldn't want that. That albatross around my neck. No way. No, not at all. Hi, brother. 8:14pm. It's been a late one. I'm going to finish this up. Get everything out. Get it going. Roll it out. So everyone can enjoy that this evening or tomorrow morning before no agenda. Just stick it in, stick it into your into your Sunday morning. And hopefully everything stays up where you are and you don't have to go back to the office. You're gonna have a nice day off tomorrow.

2:04:50 Dave Jones: I hope everything stays up where you are. Adam Curry: I'm gonna see if we're gonna get back and keep it say enough. That's alright buddy. That'll do it. Thanks for joining. Is this late night boardroom meeting where we get a little punchy. We'll be back next Friday right here podcasting 2.0 Unknown: You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcast index.org For more information podcast.

2:05:31 Dave Jones: Hey, James Sam's out of town give me a call.