Episode 101: Loops, not Lists

0:00 Oh, podcasting 2.0 for September 9 2022, episode 101 loops not less hello everybody welcome to the weekly board meeting is the only one you need to attend in your life. It is the one for podcasting 2.0 everything that's going on in podcast index.org with a namespace with the industry. And of course all the trash we talk, podcast index dot social. I'm Adam curry here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country and in Alabama, the man most likely to receive the first knighthood from the new King. Say hello to my friend on the other end, ladies and gentlemen, Mr. De Jones.

0:40 Yeah, guess what I'm doing as we speak. I don't know some royal duties. Not royal duties. I'm like, I'm always I'm tweeting the or tooting the Oh, you're tuning the show the show you have to show. Did you know? Did you know? I just found this out like yesterday. Do you know how shut when somebody talks about a shotgun is like 12 gauge 10 gauge 16 gauge? Do you know what the how they determine that what the gauge means? I only know 12 and 20. And I know 20 is smaller. So no. Is it? Oh wait. Is it by the size of the ear you can shoot a hole through for one of those hip looking big rings.

1:32 Know it is it is oh. So there's there's 1012 1620 gauge. I'm sure there's a few more. But those are the ones that are the most common. I've been using this terminology my whole life I didn't I never realized what that means. So the way you determine the gauge of a shotgun is that number means how many lead balls of the diameter of the barrel? It takes to make one pound. No way. Yeah, so 10 gauge shotgun is tin, tin lead balls of that size. Barrel diameter. Yeah, we'll make a pound ha yeah, that makes sense. Why a 20 gauge is smaller than a 12.

2:17 Oh, interesting. Yeah. And for 10 So I've got I've got a double barrel 14 and the 14 is not a gauge. That's a caliber. So that's yeah, wholly different. Yeah, my the judge can shoot those. It'll do. It'll go both ways. Right? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Just Well, I gave it to Rogen as a Welcome to Texas gift that was given to me when I came to Texas, so I forgot. Give it to Joe. And he just gets passed around. New arrivals. Yeah, it's like, like those chicks with a blue jeans. Only we do it with a gun. Okay. Of course, that movie. The secret society of the paddling, paint traveling fans. Yes, exactly. Hey, I got my first my first pod verse alert today of live for the live Yeah, I'm very excited. And this is because I got a new phone and I loaded graphene OS onto it. And, you know, I was using a pixel for for, I don't know, years and years with graphene OS thing goes on forever. And so fine.

3:14 Love the size, love everything about it battery stays, you know, still good. What phone did you get? Well, you're pretty restricted with graphene OS. And so the reason why I got it is that I felt it was time to clean up, you know, it's like, okay, now I really know how graphene is functions, I'd like to kind of start over again, and the selfie camera had started getting, you know, got cloudy. So if I did a call with my daughter, she's like, dad take the filter off. And like that's not filter. So I asked, our guy had no agenda phone.com Who does this as a service. But he also has very detailed instructions how to do it yourself as I'll do it myself. But he said, you know, get a pixel six A, which I'm generally very happy with.

3:58 But it's bigger than I really I really like it's a little bigger. I don't like a big phone. I've got the iPhone Mini. Yeah. I prefer that. And you know, and I don't like cases, but I really need to put something around this because very vulnerable. It looks feels vulnerable. Yeah. Anyway, it's a solid device. And it was that was actually quite an interesting, I finally figured out how to use the sandbox Google stuff. And so you know, if you can download something from the Play Store and run it in its own little sandbox, which you know, really locks out all of your other system. It can't talk to apps outside of that it can't, you know, you can really determine if it gets any geolocation data. And so you can also determine, hey, let this app pass on an alert.

4:46 So this is the what you're talking about is that thing where it like proxies it logs into the store for you with some other account? No, no, no, this is the you literally log in with an existing Google account except when you load the apple onto your phone. Now, of course, whatever you're doing, you know, Google knows what you're doing, obviously. So you got to choose wisely. But the app itself runs in a sandbox that is separate from the rest of the phone. So it can't be talking to other apps and getting all kinds of sensor data without your explicit permission on all of these things. If it's very granular into that in that kit, I'm assuming that that kills it in the background. So that is not just resident all the time tracking you and that kind of thing? No, the apps the Play Store? No, I mean, you have no, it's a graphing OS app, which is this sandbox, place store and Play services. So you can still use them. I mean, obviously, please, no need to email me.

5:46 Advice, you need lots of advice. But then the thing that got me was tails scale, all of a sudden didn't work. And then I realized, oh, man, I'm really reliant on tail scale in my life. This thing, can't live without it. Ah, I mean, just to get to my, um, roles, I have a saved a web application, like a web page. And so just boom, you get into your Bumble right away, or even heli pad with a shortcut. I mean, all this stuff is great. And then oh, man, cuz I have a domain name mapped to it. So I don't have to I don't have to remember, IP addresses. Could you just put in the in the a record, even though it resolves to, you know, whatever private address it is, it's a use case for that stuff is strong, too, because they have, like incredible access control lists, and stuff. Oh, man, I was reading to the documentation for it the other day. And I mean, you can just create entire, you know, network Virtual Private, private networks. Yeah.

6:47 With SSL, SSL certs, even if you want to go one step further. Yeah, yeah. In DNS, you know, like proxy DNS. And that was the thing that I had a problem with. It wasn't doing the proxy DNS on the phone anymore. And it's apparently something the way that here's what I even though it should, it should work without that, by default. The Android 13 I guess it is d VPN, system, whatever that is subsystem, that sound cool subsystem, SFC. VPN subsystem decides to automatically block all traffic that is not going through the VPN. Okay, so since this is since tail scale is not a tunnel. I mean, you're not tunneling somewhere for all the other IP addresses you really only using it to, to get to your private networks. Right? It blocks everything else.

7:50 Because because that's the difference between total scale and something like a VPN is that the VPN? Or to do a VPN properly, you tunnel everything, every packet. You can you can with tail scale, you can use one of your computers as an exit. No, though. No, it's not the default. No, no. So I just couldn't figure it out. And it was of course it was DNS, you know. And so once I flipped that off, oh, okay, now it all works again. That was one of those showstopper moments. It's always DNS. That's exactly what's going to always DNS. And then I'm so jazzed that this Saturn thing came out which connects you to the Alby wallet.

8:34 Have you so have you played with it? I have no idea. So I, I hooked it up this morning. And I put the I put an additional 1% into the pot, only the podcasting 2.0 block, value block and nothing was happening. Nothing. And all of a sudden, in the last 14 minutes, it's starting to work. I have a blueberry with 169 SATs Chad f. Let me see now. Let me see. Do I have anything? So yeah, it's showing the episodes now this thing is very cool. And I can't wait to have enough data in here. Just look at the charts. I mean, this blew me away. And is this the the lb guys themselves? Or is this partners they're working with?

9:20 God knows. That's them. I think that me I'm sure it's them. This is mind boggling. So what is let me look at our value block here because we're getting your balls getting heavy. Well, okay, let me tell you this. I, I see. I see successful payments in different apps, but it doesn't come through. Okay, and I said we I think we need to pare this down a bit. Because there's too many splits causing problems. Yeah, you get 1234567 splits. I've seen 10 Go no problems. It's just so sad. Low though. Like I don't need, you can take the you can take my stay safe note off, I don't need I don't if we're going to do, I would say, do you take me off? They just replace me with Saturn that way we can both see it.

10:11 But do you think that? Do you think that this is the problem? I mean, I don't know what routing is, I have no idea. I mean, before we, I mean, if, if seven splits in the block is a problem, that's something we need to address and just taking shit out, I don't think is the way to address him. I'm not really, I wasn't trying to be technical, I really was just thinking of it more like a from a troubleshooting standpoint, where you pare things down. Okay. Well, there's two things that, you know, there's like, there's that aspect of it. And then there's also the fact that you have seven fees. You know, I mean, there's routing fees for every one of these. Yeah, so you don't miss that's not good, either.

10:56 Because we can't really especially like, like boost bot, or, or me, the my or my node. I don't know where that route is gonna go. It may go through something that's got higher fees than we would lie. Sure. Sure. That's a good point. If me, okay, this is something we need to look at. And I don't know, I mean, this is a new system, I'm receiving everything with the same fee amount on my own, Umbro, the booster grant monitor and receiving everything there. So it could also be the routing to Alby just before we start ripping stuff up. And I think we still need to look at what are the limitations? What are the app seeing as limitations for each payment? It's just that we need to look at and if we're, if that's what we're hitting, now, let's look at it. Now. Even if we're not, this is important. The other that'd be the other way to look at this is as an as troubleshooting exercise is that we can be the test case for how many splits do you do and can you use until it until it begins to have problems? Okay. Right. But I mean, we can just keep going with but 14 splits.

12:12 Right? I just like to I'd like to figure out why this is happening. Now. What I'm seeing here, so this 169 SATs, that's probably the split amount. So that would have been like, well, actually, let me see what blueberry when blueberry do about 14 minutes ago. Blueberry sent 17,776. So that one got through. So it must be a fee issue. The fee is outweighing the, the fees outweighing the payment? I think. Yeah, cuz I got 17 776 from blueberry on hella pad.

12:54 100 Yeah, right. And so I see here chat F 96. So that means that was what 1000 1000 SATs a 21. Oh, boy. Yeah. Okay. This is likely illiquidity slash fee slash routing issue. Yeah. And that really seems like the most logical explanation when it comes to if if, if a lot of splits was going to cause a problem. Yeah, it seems like it would manifest itself as a fee issue. slowness number one, but then above and beyond that, like if payments just don't arrive? It would be a fee issue. Now? Is it? I've maybe this is what it would have been all along. Or maybe I just didn't get it? Is an amp payment? Can you put together an amp payment that doesn't necessarily assemble all at the same end, but goes out to for instance, and payment? And we say send these in different directions? Or these are the different places and it's one payment? And it splits through amp? Or is yeah, that works?

13:59 Yeah, that does work. If the continuous problem with AMP is lack of support, like not enabled or, or, or if it goes through a route, or if it goes through a channel, where amp is not supported by one end of that channel likes to say I'm not sure see, lightning supports amp. Or you know what, Roy Roy can weigh in on this Roy knows exactly where this is at. And I know he prefers amp. So if we can support it and start pushing it, because this that may solve our problem. But we do support it. No, I know. Is it on the the index node? I don't think so. I don't think it's turned on. I don't think it's I don't think it's on by default.

14:40 Yeah, I don't know about that when you might you may be right about that. I know I think the Zeus wallet doesn't have it on it seems like something that's not on by default. Even though even though it I think the the switches try and payment if possible. So you know, it could just delay the payment altogether and you know, delay it until Is it okay, that didn't work? No, me tried the old school way? I think we should. It sounds like we should start supporting that, then. Yeah. Just by turning it on and using it. I don't know, which I don't know which things support. I don't know which nodes node software's support app and which ones don't only see. I mean, look up, I wonder, see, see lightning?

15:30 Because that would be that's the other major one, me got a link out there as well. But it means support this. There's support in the in the in the node software itself. And then there's support in the, in the wallets support in the nodes in the routes, you know, routing nodes that the apps have to have to send have to package things differently, I guess, to make an app payment. Tomic multipath. That's online. That's on LMDS page. I don't see anything about amp with core lightning. Native amp support? Yeah, I don't I don't know. I don't know that that's supported. And if it's not, then then that wouldn't be good. Because I mean, there's plenty of CLI there's plenty of core lightning out there. That really needs to tell us what's going on.

16:21 But have you thought about this problem yet? Other ideas? I mean, I don't have I don't see. I don't see really been an issue right now. I mean, I don't see a lot of payments failing. Well done lack of liquidity now. But it's only failing. Now the smaller payments are failing to the lb split. Yeah, but I mean, if it's a small pet, but each each payment is each payment from a malicious kisser, take pod verse, for example, or net, it's not easy. Take cast, thematic cast thematic when it splits that seven ways it's going to send seven individual payments understood and individual fees for seven individual fees. Yep. So. So a payment of 700. SAS. If that doesn't make it, I'm not sure amp is going to save you very much. Because I mean, that's a risk. If it fails because of fees on a 700 set payment. You're so far down the line at that point. I mean, so it's going to find, you know, you don't the way that would save us if somehow found a channel that's that's got 1000 SATs of liquidity, right.

17:31 But I believe that we have a channel between us and Alby. And, you know, Elon pays effectively on on our node. Yeah, but what I'm what I'm saying though, is that does that and if you can't, if you can't get a 700 sat payment through without amp, I'm not sure you're gonna get it through with AMP either. Understood, completely understood. I'm curious why a payment, which should not even have a single fee in it. Because it's, it should be our node directly to Alby because we have a channel so there's no there's no routing fee.

18:16 That you're saying that it did not? You're saying the payments. Are we troubleshooting this because payments are failing to lb? Are we afraid they are? No, they are? Definitely All right. Yeah, they are. It seems anything under under 10,000 SATs. I'm not getting a 1% split to the lb No, that's what I'm saying. I only have two so far out of the room. Are they both from the same app? I see fountain. Two from pod verse. I just got one from Okay, here we go. We got one from fountain. Maybe it's maybe caching. Yeah, I could be a two. If it's not DNS is cache. I got one set, but Oh, that's interesting. It hasn't updated on helipad yet. Huh?

19:03 It'll hit Bailey pads a slow piece of crap compared to lb this the problem? Hey, I don't want to ever hear you talking about helipad like that. That's incredibly rude. All right. So you know what, maybe it's just caching but we'll let it we'll let it shake out a little bit. See how it does. It's caching is gotta be caching. We're that's what we're gonna go with. Okay, it's caching. All right, everybody. Fire drill over it was caching next. me speaking of speaking of Lb I'm in the throes of adding lb wallet support to podcaster wallet. Oh, fantastic. Because did you see that they just added shipping to SoundCloud.

19:44 Oh, no. Yes. I'm telling you. SoundCloud. We got to we got to get that connection made because the people are gonna want it and let's not get them in the habit of tipping. That nobody actually works at SoundCloud though. It's all Ay ay ay, but we don't need them. We don't need their permission. That's right. We don't have you don't need it. No, please claim your feet here. And as we discussed, do you have a music tracks in your feed, whatever the language is, click Yes, your music medium equals music bit gets flipped. It's a shame but you know, we got to help these fuckers because, you know, disco Matic know what they called dystopia disco Matic disco Matic that's the new name just from now on disco Matic dystopia, you know, these guys are hot and heavy on it, it's gonna happen. It's the same as the hosting companies. It may even go a little bit faster, but we have to put a little shim in there because of the music flag.

20:48 Ryan has sent me some links. That topic I was talking about where you could like detect whether something is music or audio, I mean, our speech automatically, like eight sent me some stuff you totally can. That's a evidently well trodden territory. Well, you know what I would love for you to do it. I would, I mean, I'd like to take a here, here's my idea. So take the day, the weekly data database, the weekly John dump, and dump, download it, mess around the weekly massive dump, and dump and ghost runs through it because one of the things contained in the massive dump is the lat the most recent enclosure URL. So you can run through that run maybe hills a lot to Mystic, you could crawl through that, and grab the URL of every of each one of each enclosure, and then run the analysis on it and see if it's music or speech. And then sort of build a profile across the index of which, how many and which podcasts are audio verse, or audio or speech versus music.

22:15 That would be a really good first crack at that, to see if there's pockets and then union we will increment a counter. So if it finds a music, podcasts, or enclosure, we increment a counter on the host description so that we can say okay, there's maybe by the end of this thing, there's 75,000 podcasts that seemed to be music. And they're clustered with they're clustered in these hosts maybe SoundCloud you know just topia whatever RSS blue did I don't know if you saw RSS blue, fairly new hosting company. They got music, the music tag or excuse me, the medium tag is evidently baked into their their UI, and there's quite a few music podcasts right out the gate. And what are they doing for wallets?

23:17 They support the you know, putting in your value block. Oh, is that I don't know. You get? You get shuttled through. So can I get to lb I think they're connected to lb. So the only thing we need them. And I'm fine. Not at these you without saying it. You don't want to add the shim to podcaster wallet. You don't want to add the medium is music. I know you don't. I don't because it's so sketchy. Good because I don't know good. Yeah, good. We still need to change the language for someone who wants to sign up for music. How do we get that done? Do we change the exists? There? Again, I think if if people have to go to a place called podcast or wallet to get their music in, I think will fail. So it's purely perception may may help. How about this? How about this? Maybe the way you find out how much music is in there. That sounds like a pretty cool project actually.

24:23 Sounds kind of fun. And in the meantime, just like RSS blue. And in a way, like fountain I would hope that someone would make an app where you can actually do the onboarding. So here's your new this is the new new music 2.0 app. And here's what it does. And if you if you're an artist and you're either on the end if you're here, here or here, claim your feed and and get your wallet if if you're not with RSS Blue or whatever. So the honest the onboarding would have is that what are says blue is doing there, they're doing the same as fountain with us interacting with the value block, or they're putting the block into the RSS feed.

25:13 Looking right now, they're, they're putting the block into the feed. And I think they may have done an integration with Alby. But I'm not sure they may just have fields, I'm gonna have to go back and look. Okay. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's there, the stuffs there. Now, this is actually a good idea. So probably a good way to kickstart this is if you're interested in doing that project to find out what's in the system. Sure, and we and we mark that up and say, okay, in you know, either temporary or whatever, a special endpoint music flag experimental, then, then then the app developers can do something, then they have some content they can use. That's all we need. We need the content that I don't care how we get it in there. If it's already in there, we could find it, then I think we'll see the app. This is the way to go. podcasts or wallet is such a fucking crutch.

26:08 I love it. But it's not the way to go. What fountain did is the way to go? And then of course, hosting companies doing feeds directly, totally the way to go. Okay, yeah, now I'm down. Because I've talked myself out of what I want. It's Fuck, you're good day job. Yeah, I can, I can push the mind of the meal. So we think I really want the medium. I really want this music stuff to be figured out prior to pre hackathon. Yeah, I agree. But because that's going to be a celebration, you know, it's gonna be nice people salivate to have to have more than to use.

26:53 So briefly, tell me what is the output of, of the system you you're thinking of doing? So in my head, what I was thinking is go day, Grunt through the dump, get grab every grab every enclosure URL, and it's the most recent one as of the time of the massive dump, grab each enclosure URL, you'd have to be downloaded, and then run an analysis on it using one of these tools. And then keep a running count of which ones are music, and which, in which host, which hosting provider it is. And then at the end of it, what it would output is, here's how many podcasts had contain music content. And which hosting companies are ones that contain music content. Parallel to that it would also be outputting.

27:55 Each individual feed like you know, with the feed URL or the participant make sure sure sure, sure, sure. So that we could go back and mark them as music in the database directly. Now we mark them permanently as music or some temp flag or something so that we know, I think I would flag it as music because because it's not going to hurt it. It's not going to change the the podcast, it's not going to change the API output in any way. Yeah, it's just how the how the apps interpret that, right? The only thing it would, the only way that the output of the of the API would be affected is if you called if you called the endpoint. If you made a call to the podcast by tag by tag medium, or nose bucket, I can't remember the there's an API endpoint that we made dish gives you back only music podcasts that have declared the music medium that would now output all those ones we flagged but nothing else about any of the output would change. So it wouldn't have it wouldn't harm anything. And and we would know with great with a great day a great degree of confidence that these that these podcasts do, in fact contain music material, right? I love it. It would be I love it. It would. It's a good interim for your if we have a list to say, okay, these five podcast hosting

29:28 providers contain a lot of music content. We can then contact get in touch with them directly and say, Hey, y'all got a bunch of music on there? Why don't you declare the music medium tag? Well, we already got it. Yep. Love it. Love it. All right, Meeting adjourned. Till next week. Oh man, I'm still I'm gonna do that. I'll do that after I finished with the lb Parkchester wallet connector thing because the way the way that's going is in the podcaster wallet dashboard, just let you know it's like right now it has thinks voltage see thinks voltage what was the was the other way along pay? No, not Ellen pay. Oh Satoshi string thinks voltage Satoshi stream, and then custom add your own custom node rice. So you can add there'll be another one I'll add lb. And it'll be a connector, you'll it'll kick you out to lb, you'll say Yeah, I'm good. You know, I want to connect my wallet. And then it'll here's a, here's a call back. So it would seem it would seem to me that Al B, or Saturn could actually do that they could, they should be able to onboard from their end too. So hey, look at the sexy stats, you want that sign up here. And then they just hit the back end without actually going to podcast or

30:59 wallet. And so you don't have to fill all that stuff out. Yeah, so we did that for fountain and for Satoshi stream they have Yeah, they have direct access. Yeah, I think I'll be considered that. Now it's up to the provider, who we do this for to do the valid feed owner validation checking. They have to go through that those hoops. We don't do okay. Okay, because we don't get a chance to at that point. Nor do we, because that's a huge pain in the ass. Right. And this is another reason why we need we need to make progress on the verify, verify tag. So because I want to get out of this game, what uh, here's what I would love to do.

31:44 And this is across the entire index. This is not not just for this use case, across the entire index, I would love to get rid of email addresses, I don't want to hold anybody's email addresses ever. And what that means is, when you sign up for the API, you hold your it holds your email address, temporarily, so that they can verify your identity. Then once you verified, it takes your email address, and it hashes it into a store and just stores the hash. Okay, so that when you go back to login in the future, you're just logging in what you log in with your email address and password hashes both of them not just the password and compares it to the database that way, that way we don't have and if you ever forget your password, you're gonna have to just type your password your email address in it'll again, do the hash. I don't think it affects anybody.

32:41 We can remove all the email addresses from our entire database podcasts and and signups and podcasts or wallet and all that stuff. I like because that way we don't ever have to worry about the you know, any of this stuff like GDPR and all this kind of junk. We don't have to worry about any of that stuff. Because we don't hold anything. And we don't need it really except for that one function. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's really all the verification part is the only thing we need it for. And I think we can do that with just hashes. I'm fine with it. All right. All right. Hello, Dortch Lyons. Hello, Deutschland? Do you hear me? Go? We've been going for like 30 minutes. We've already solved like two major problems. Well, we're on a roll baby. Elsa have some thoughts about stuff I've been reading and seeing and hearing this week. Okay, from the podcast industry.

33:28 Seriously, favorite term, your favorite term? Well, no, I've, I've I have clarity, I have a lot of clarity. This is the pod like to benefit from the podcasts industry, I realized, is actually the podcast industrial complex. And it's it's not it's not dissimilar. It's really not dissimilar. It makes me think of the military industrial complex is where I'm borrowing the word from, of course. And the fact that people call it the industry. I mean, in our industry, the industry is sometimes interchangeable with space, space or community, which I despise you know, this bullshit, I don't do this. It's not that way. And, you know, when it kind of, you know, so when we started this, Dave, you and I, just the two of us, just the two of us. The two of us, yes. I was loving the air. You know, with two things in mind. One is deep platforming is bullshit. No, we're not going to have that. Actually, three things two was, we need to do all the heavy lifting so software developers can get in the game. And then we needed to have a censorship resistant payment system, which also was able to include everybody in the game in the flow, including the developers. And I'm still very convinced that that is not an insignificant driver. The fact that everybody receives that

35:00 there's potential for everyone to catch a piece of this. And it's, it's a lot more fun when you share. And it's not just the podcaster getting all the money, which is kind of what had happened with the podcast industrial complex, and very similar to have a term by the way, thank you very similar to having consultants and lobbyists and governance boards, you know, what we discovered, is there was this huge monolith of, of interconnected pieces that called themselves the industry. And then we're stagnant that when we saw centralization, stagnation, worse, we saw, not the first not the second, maybe the fourth try by Silicon Valley, in this case, Stockholm Valley, to come in and capture podcasting, and we can own it all. And you know, it's failed many times before. To a degree where they're so brazen, they're like, Yeah, we don't I mean, this RSS shit. So of course, RSS is the reason why this works.

36:10 And the cool thing about RSS was, you didn't need anybody's permission, you just show up with your RSS feed and the server and you plop it down. In general, you don't need anyone's permission. Now, of course, we have a very nicely decentralized hosting category of companies, all relatively small, medium enterprises, you know, all started as a cottage industry, and they serve their clients very well. And this is a very small group, it's like pilots, you know, like helicopter pilots, there's only so so many of them, but the people who are in it, you know, the mechanics, the instructors, the flight line, FBO. I mean, there's a lot of there's a lot of people, it's, you can call that an industry, community, whatever you want to call it. But podcasting is unique, because you really don't need anything or anybody. You don't really even need money, just a little bit if just to host stuff. So, as I'm reading, and, you know, there's many people I respect and have known for going on two decades, listening to different podcasts and how they're all processing, the hurt and the shame of Podcast Movement. At first, I'm just like, holy crap.

37:21 Are we still talking about this? Are we still trying to, to listen to each other and all this? I'm like, hold on a second. And but here's what I keep hearing in this in these conversations in these pieces. And I'm confused by it. You know, we as an industry, interchange, community, whatever, but industry, we have an obligation to lift unheard voices. And I'm like, How can you not be heard in an open system? What are you talking about? That everybody can be heard? It's equal, not where it's not equal is in platforms, you know? So is this about getting equal exposure and Spotify? I mean, I've never, I mean, the times I've been on the front page of Apple, I can count on half a hand. Seriously, seriously. And but I've spent the time I did the grind and, and here we are. So So initially, I was thinking, These people are missing the point. Like, does that mean that we all have to be on the same town square? This is what they say a lot about Twitter? Well, it's the town square it's the public square. No, no. To me, it's like we're in history that the whole world or a whole city come together at one time on a square it don't your you got your square and Chinatown you got your square and Little Italy, you got the square and Brooklyn,

38:52 you know, all these all these different squares. And now we can actually interconnect them. I thought these people are just missing the point is like, what do you what do you tried to raise up anybody can can get the same exposure. I was missing the point. This is about who's in the relatively small money square. And this is the key part of the military industrial complex, where we literally have boards and and Starfleet commands who decide, you know that equity is important and we need more of this and we need to have more of these people again, in an open system. I don't understand what what they're talking about. Then it dawned on me it's it's who gets the money.

39:36 And I literally heard Oh, no, I read this today on pod news. Someone did a an analysis of the podcast industry so again, the podcast industrial complex, and it's like whoa, here's the conclusion. White men run it you know and who they have serious X am amused. So I'm looking at these like this. I heart Spotify, Apple, Amazon, a caste Odyssey. You know what, fuck all this? Yeah, absolutely. White men run that business. So now I understand they're using the racial angle or inclusivity, the DEI, you know, diversity, equity inclusion, to force people into cutting up the pie and cutting other people in. And in my view, and I don't think this is purposeful. But it's, it's very normal for an, you know, I have no prob, I love people who serve in the military. And there's also people I know, are administrative in the military. And they all know it's a shit show, and I don't hate them individually, but on mass, it's a huge shit show. And that's what this is, only it's not as much money as the military industrial complex. So that's why I saw hundreds of consultants. And I was, I think you sent me a link about this. This one consultant, you know,

41:06 who built up her business, you know, selling ads on podcast, and then she's finally hit the big time. And she's gone to New York. And you know, she, she goes and collects some, some diverse people, and then goes to a corporate a corporation, and says, Okay, I need $200,000 to produce this series. And now I have like six episodes, and now my mind is like, oh, okay, we're recreating Hollywood. Got it. And here's the only thing that the podcast Industrial Complex has as a unique selling proposition. brand safety and suitability. That's it, hey, we can show you brand safety and suitability. Look at our hosts, look at who's producing it. Look at the mix. How can that be wrong? So all they're really doing this all they have as as something extra? Is brand safety. It's you know, it's like, it's a part of ESG. I even heard as I was listening and reading, there's no talk of what then this came out of this whole fracas with Ben Shapiro, now people talking about universal labeling system for podcasts. So not just audiences, but advertisers know what's inside.

42:22 Well, the nutrition label, yes, yes. No, no. And that's all fine. I'm perfectly okay with it. I'm not interested in it. I don't want to compete in it. I find it sad that people are tricked into thinking they have a shot in it. If you don't have the certain attributes, I think you don't. It's a lot of people running after the same money. And here's, here's the bad news. Because that's not bad. To me, it's like a fine is, I really don't care. I have other things to do with my life. Just don't call it the podcast industry. It's the podcast industrial complex. But here's the problem, the money ride is coming to an end, the free money, the Silicon Valley money, it's over. And just That's how interest rates work, the money is is is no longer going to flow the way it used to talk to your people in marketing, advertising is drying up. And it's not just the podcast industrial complex.

43:23 Advertising is advertising and marketing money is drying up everywhere, particularly online. It doesn't mean that there's less people advertising, although that is of course, diminishing with economic circumstances. I mean, just as a general question, I would love to see an analysis I was hoping pod news may have I may have this. I would like to see how are these dynamically inserted ads that multiple hosting companies have implemented in the past few months? How are they doing? I don't hear anything about it. I never hear performance metrics on any of that. You hear it about everybody else. And then we'll have $6 billion running through podcasting in just a few short years. Is this working? I don't believe it is. And that's why podcasts industrial complex conferences are really money funnels. But here's here's how I can prove to you that advertising online in general is a problem. And podcasting is going to be the first one to be cut off the list. And death definitely now with this bullshit that went down at Podcast Movement. That's kryptonite. It doesn't matter who was right who was wrong.

44:41 That's kryptonite to advertisers. That's why I believe there's so much groveling from the P IC. They're saying, oh, you know what? We're open to dialogue and we can all get along and No, no, no, you're worried that advertisers are going to walk away with you're honest with yourself about it or not. I truly believe that I've been around a long time. I've got clips to prove it. I brought receipts. Let's do that. And then I'll give you the payoff. What's happening? How about that? Yeah. So Ed Ryan, if anybody hasn't seen his interview with a think the guy's name is boring, Jeremy boring, which is completely unfortunate name. To some degree, yes. Yeah. At Ryan's radio, he did a great interview with with the, I guess he's the co founder or co owner of daily wire. And it was good in the sense that I feel like it was very, there was two sides to this guy. The one side was he was clearly being very honest with his emotions. He was upset. I mean, he said a lot of stuff. I mean, he was but he did not hold back in this interview saying exactly what he thought about the whole situation. The others, but there was another side of it. The other side of it was, I feel like sort of a calculated truth, some calculated phrasing, that makes me think that something has

46:12 changed. Where there could be lawsuits, or some sort of seeking after damages for some of these things. PLAY CLIP one, and we'll get into. So I get on this call with one of the CO owners and, and you know, I was fairly open minded going into the call, I thought, you know, with a little luck, I'll get an apology with a little luck, they'll take the tweet down. And maybe we can all kind of get on, get on with our lives. And instead, as I mentioned last night on daily wires backstage podcast, what I got was just an incredibly disingenuous phone call in which this gentleman told me that there was nothing remotely political about their tweet, and that they were only actually upset because they don't really want podcasters podcast talent, being at Podcast Network, sorry, Podcast Movement, a conference that exists for podcasters. So his argument was, this wasn't political at all. You know, we were just surprised that Ben showed up, we don't let talent show up. And some of our other sponsors are angry because their talent wasn't invited. So I hope you understand that it wasn't political. And that's all it was. And, and I'll be honest, that I kind of choked up a little bit, my voice broke, I can utterly adrenalized you have to understand Ben Shapiro is my business partner. But Ben Shapiro is also my friend and and to be lied to, to my face to be told that a groveling apology that says they never should have taken our money, that our content is dangerous, that our

47:43 very presence causes harm. You're going to tell me that this isn't political. You're going to tell me that this is Oh, we just don't like for talent, podcast talent to show up at our podcast conference. The the audacity of it. So, to me, there's two, there's those two parts of this. There's, there's the I think he when he says talks about the talent, we don't want the talent showing up. I think that's legit. I think there's a legitimate side to that. I bet you they don't. And the reason is, when Ben Shapiro walked in the room, it was like, gosh, I mean, it's suck everybody to the to the daily wire booth, even people who didn't like him. This is contrary to every conference I've ever been involved in. You want Bill Gates working the floor walking the floor of Comdex you want you want it but you want all of them like this. I think people got pissed because Shapiro showed up. And it sucked everybody to the daily wire, including all the ad money and all that stuff.

48:47 It was like everybody, every other every other agency in the room. saw all the color drain out is like Okay, so you know, what do you Alright, so then why was I allowed to walk around? Um, no, Ben Shapiro and my talented people recognize me? Could I be polarized advertising? I'm sorry, you don't take you're not you're not you don't take? Well, then they made a calculation by giving him a booth to start with that when they said we didn't expect him to show up and that was a problem. Okay, I'll take it back. Yeah, so when Bill Gates walks the floor, walk the floor of Comdex he was controlled by the Comdex people they made sure that we're walking with Him they made you know, Oh, yeah. Okay. It was an uncontrolled talent visit. Yes.

49:33 Uncontrolled talent. It is uncontrolled money sucking of advertising to one side of the room or just you know what it was? Oh my god. Dave, you've hit on this is this is why there's two of us. So in addition to everything I said that the actual event itself was at least partially probably motivated by holy fuck balls. We can't have we can't have our money you know hanging out with that. ochre, which is kind of what it is, right? Yeah. Good analysis. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Hit clip hit. I think you understand now my clip, my clip numbering scheme where I started with zero instead of one.

50:14 I played one. Okay, no, I played zero. I played zero. You meant one. Yeah, hit number one hit now hit the actual number one. Sorry, man. But that's that's not very podcast like to have a clip named zero binary, binary. They think that they're in the right. They think that they're doing the right thing. They think that either on an ideological level that Ben's presence does cause harm, which is what they said, so I don't have to, I don't have to guess that. That's what they think it's what they said, We're dangerous. We cause harm just by being present, that we cause pain that we'll be with you always, or it's just a calculated business decision. In which case, it's even worse. Candidly, the owner of Podcast Movement, who I spoke to twice, told me that he shares my politics largely. It makes it even worse in a calculated cowardly business decision to be more afraid of the woke mob than you are of hearing your own voice speak bigotry out into the world, even against people you claim to agree with. Politically the whole thing is absolutely disgusting.

51:16 You know, now that you framed it that way for me, Dave I now I'm like, Man, you just yelling the wind about say this was about money, bro. Y'all knew why you were there. You knew bu Ben would press some flash with some some some money dudes. Yeah, this makes sense. Now that's why they're all good. Well, that clip right there. I think that's to me, the veiled. This one slightly veiled phrasing of, you know what? You This was a business decision. It wasn't honest. And you he talks a little bit more in this interview about how the the origin tweet, evidently I can't find it anymore. I wish somebody would find this thing for me because I would enjoy looking at it. The the original tweet that spawned this whole thing. And I'm glad, by the way, I'm glad that we took some time to sort of digest this new hot take. Because you are so the opposite of what I view as a hot take.

52:17 That's what my wife calls me. But we, because I think we have more clarity on it now. But it's because he said, I would love to see this original tweet, because he mentioned something like, you know, the podcast movie responded to this one tweet that had non followers or something. Yeah, this is a real problem that may be beginning to manifest itself with either this event or just recently, where so you know, the social media companies, Twitter and everybody have set themselves up with an editorial role. They've done that over the past five years, where they are now firmly established as editors of the content that is contained on their platform. Once you establish that you are in an editorial role. If you allow things on your platform that has actual damage, like monetary damages associated with it to a brand, whether it's a brand on the advertising side, or brand on the advertising money consumption side, it cuts both ways. brand safety goes in both directions. Daily wire, it takes advertising, advertising from whoever I don't listen to shows, but they take let's just say they take advertising from Bank of America. Well, there's two brands involved. There's Bank of America, and there's daily wire.

53:46 If anything on Twitter's platform, if they allow content to stay up, that that is damaging to the brand of one or the other. And it's shown that that content was malicious or untruthful. That can be a real problem for not just for not just Twitter, but the brands that are involved. Like there can be monetary damages. I see that going bad quick. And if and to me, that's what he was kind of hinting at hinting at is that if you because he could play a play clip to that, which is actually clip through which the only satisfactory resolution for you with Podcast Movement at this point.

54:29 I mean, at this point, I don't know. Certainly nothing short of deleting these bigoted tweets, apologizing for your bigotry with the same at least the same level of self effacing criticism and passion that you grovelled before the woke mob with I mean, I would think that if you actually are going to give that kind of five or six tweet apology, it should be for something you actually did wrong. And it was not wrong to let the sixth largest podcasting company in the country. participate in your podcast conference, it was wrong to express abject bigotry against speech against Ben Shapiro, and to commit to Podcast Movement being a neutral conference. I mean, that's been my stance since the very first time that I spoke to anyone involved. That's what I've asked for. Today, would it be enough? I don't know. Right? I mean, they've had these tweets up there for so long now they've shown such disrespect. They obviously don't care. I don't know if it would be enough, but it would be a damn good start.

55:28 What do you think this means for Podcast Movement, the conference, do you think it will have any impact on it, and you can stop it that the point there is that, you know, he's really focusing on you need to take these tweets down, they're bigots, they're bigoted, they're defamatory. The angle he's taking is that this causes them. This caused them damn real world material damage. And that, that's what's going to happen. I don't I mean, okay, so I know a little bit about Daly wires operation. They don't have they also don't have big national brands. I don't believe they have Bank of America. In fact, famously, Harry's razor pulled their advertising from daily wire and the Podcast Network. And that boring guy right away said, Okay, I'm starting the boring shaver company was quite a successful launch and PR campaign, I have no idea how it's going now. They are. These are like, you know, Shapiro was famous for segwaying into gold, you need to buy gold. These are not, these are not big brand names. And that's what the podcast industrial complex is after they're after the big the big names, the big money, the big spots, that's where all the money is you go big or go home. But if you're a podcaster, but certainly if you're a podcast consultant, I gave some advice in the last board meeting. It's like you can easily consult

56:58 people on value for value. And it may come in handy if you start sharpening up those skills. Because I just It started today. Now all of a sudden, I'm hearing Silicon Valley people and lawmakers, congressmen and women talking about the evil tick tock, tick tock has to be it's clearly a surveillance machine from the CCP. And I'm like, hold on a second. You're telling me now that suddenly there's consensus about something orange man said. Because this is this is Trump's thing. Like this stinks. And of course it does. Google. Of course, meta with Instagram, they are shitting themselves, the markets know it all the money. All the advertising money is going to Tik Tok. It's all funneling there and it's highly successful. It traps people It grabs them in the music business is in their Spotify, it should also pay attention. Tick tock I mean, he just some headlines have put a lot of them in the in the shownotes. Forbes tiktoks takeover of marketing and commerce in 2022. Google exec suggests here one is this from TechCrunch. And this is from July, Google execs execs suggest

58:32 Instagram and Tiktok are eating into Google SCorp core products, Search and Maps. People are searching on Tik Tok for a restaurant and they're getting a cool tick tock video. I see so it's heading into search. Of course we know Instagram has issues. Now we get and this was the big news at the DEA Conference, which is where it got my attention. The the CEO of Axel Springer, huge media company said what do you say tick tock should be banned in every democracy? Yeah, sure.

59:14 Eating his advertising dollar lunch. That's what's going on here. Now, check this out. Google. This is Bloomberg, Google and meta. Find video app success in India after Tik Tok is banned. Oh, you don't say. And then finally, the FCC commissioner. And I do not know I don't I looked and look at the background of Brendan Carr says Tiktok serious national security threat we have to take action. Well bullshit. First of all, I know firsthand it's LexisNexis that does all the signups and verification so you know pretty American. company that's in the middle there is a do that for tick tock there. Yeah, they do a different networks. So it's not just all CCP. Although, is it any better?

1:00:12 No Oracle's in there, so okay, the CIA's in there. This is about Silicon Valley losing their lunch. And with it, some of the streamers are in trouble to the streaming platforms. So the first thing to get cut from the budget is going to be that complicated podcasting, because, you know, like, they got issues. And as you know, there's we had some diversity fight, and I don't really know, but yes, take them off the list. Let's double down the buy in tick tock. Yeah. Because that's, that's more the sure thing, of course, is you stay away from the kryptonite, as you said, and there's no you know, and, and, and the The Tick Tock algo is so highly tuned for you. I mean, I don't know if you're, if your kids have tick tock, but it's very addictive. It's really a very addict. I mean, they do have but I know grown. Man, I know, adults were like, Oh, check this shit out on tick tock refused install that crap. I cannot and we are a tick tock free home. So that you will and that, just to add to what you said, in the security world, this this past couple of weeks, there was a tick tock, quote, unquote, breach. That still doesn't. It's still not entirely clear. You know, people have come down and said, Okay, well, this is a fake breach. I'm still not sure. I mean, there's I don't know. But there was a suppose had like 2 billion record user breach. Oh, from tick tock. I mean, there

1:01:47 you're right. There's there's definitely some tick tock synth sintered outrage going on right now. And I'm sure that it's valid, but they're using that to get rid of it because they are just anyone who's in marketing go look around, let's, let's just be honest with each other. That's what this is about. Shit. Tick tock is eating our lunch. What do we have? Well, we have a brand safety and suitability. that'll sell. Yeah, but you're, you're dynamically inserted ads, I think the money's going to tick tock I just do. So luckily, value for value. You're soaking in it right now. We don't need any of this yet. We also don't need lists that we need to be on. We don't need to be on wholeness, we we need loops, not lists. Oh, that's a t shirt. Thank you. Feedback loops are the key, use the payment mechanism for the messaging.

1:02:52 This is what works. Remember to ask loops, not lists. Lists are unimportant. You want to you want to have a loop with your audience. You want them to loop other people in, hopefully your loop can connect to another loop. Like Rogen, I we connected in the Rogen loop, even though he doesn't really do his loop. He's loop de loop. Loop. I got lost in the loop edge. But you know what I want, I'm saying there's like, it really does work when you commit to it. People are lazy, they've been hoodwinked into thinking you can go to a conference, and you'll come back with ways to make money on advertising. No. And there's no reason to most don't really deserve to make money.

1:03:41 Unless it is earned from a loop earn from your community, then it's honest, it's sincere. It'll keep it keeps everybody in check the whole system works. Eric P just linked over to whitehouse.gov. Read Out of White House listening session on tech platform accountability through accountability September 8, it was yesterday. Although tech platforms can help keep us connected, create a vibrant marketplace of ideas and open up new opportunities for bringing products to the world. They can also divide us and wreak serious real world harms. Interesting.

1:04:22 So this must be well they can and if you put a whole city into or a whole state into one square and let everyone talks equally as loud, we'd be massacre, of course to provide one of the principles provide robust federal protections for Americans privacy. There you go. There's your anti tick tock. Protect our kids by putting in place even stronger privacy and online protections for them. Yeah, this is all anti tic toc. Is this a? Is this just a report from the listening session? This is a precursor to legislation because it can't be executive order. It has to be legislation. And this is the Meeting this is the meeting for the Masons the breeding for the meeting. Okay, this, this is the setup. Yeah, remove number four remove special legal protections for large tech platforms. But just I just want people to realize the power that is being put into place here. This is Silicon Valley. They know exactly what they're doing. And they were completely new when Trump was talking about CCP these people are insincere full of shit. They want tick tock gone because tick tock is taking their money out and Tik Tok is great at it. That's the problem.

1:05:37 Five is the increased transparency about platforms algorithms and content moderation decisions. Algorithm. Yep. Yeah, yes. As you go. Because the the pled detect it right. Do you talk to you about tick tock? It's, they're in love with algorithm. It's algo they've got the best algo Yeah, you know, yeah. And it's eaten everybody's lunch and they don't want. They don't they want to get rid of the algo. Or at least expose it so everybody else can do it, too. Exactly. I love it. Let's look at our own algo for a second. Thanks. Some of the live boosters we've had. coming in. Boost. 1212 from anonymous, Adam and Dave are gonna save us from the podcast industrial complex. Yes. The BSC Yes, indeed. Hard Hat 11,111 Go podcast, podcast. Martin Linda's code. Wow. He says with a row of ducks. 2222 I managed to send a booster gram during live thanks pod verse row of ducks. Two, two 2.22 Satoshis thanks from Martin. 1000 from Morris, thank you, Maura. It's another 11,111 from Pfeiffer gratuitous Plug GO podcasting go podcast. There's blueberry with 9999 Question been trying to think of a way to list producer credits. Right now they're listed on top of our weekly substack release. Is it possible to list a producer and the role in a person tag? We tried

1:07:08 writing producers into the social interact tag, but besides decide to post images and links to our T shirts there instead, listen to exactly what the person tag is for. Yeah, yeah, that's it, the person tag links to the podcast taxonomy for the for the role and group. I'm trying to pull it out. Now. If you if you use sovereign feeds, just maybe just start a test feed or import your existing one. You can go to cast and you'll see and you can that's where you can enter pictures of people on the show their roles, and it's very extensive. The full taxonomy list is on. You have creative director, assistant director, executive producer producers, Senior Producer, Associate Producer development producer. Yeah, all that stuff's in there. You just need the roll and the grin and possibly the group.

1:08:06 Chat F one on one on one. The Adam, are you going to are you going on Tim cast to school them on the history of podcasting? Brother. This is so dumb. I guess they had a conversation. Oh, who started pie who was the first pie whatever the question was, that was like, well, it was Adam curry. No, no, no, no, he sold it to Apple. No, he's, I mean, this is this is the level of it right? Like, and then I think II and a lot of people want me to go on Tim, Tim Poole. But I think Tim Poole doesn't like me and probably rightly so because I made fun of him. Just like Steve Jobs pay you for for podcasts as well as when you already bought it for me part of the agreement. I'm not allowed to say that. I sold it to them. So that's that. Okay.

1:08:54 He gave you a national security. I did. Blueberry 17,776 Big freedom boost. This is a new lit son of a bitch. Okay. Oh, he got you. And that is except for some smaller ones. There it is. Thank you very much for your live booster which thanks some other people while we're at it. Do Oh, is it that time there we already been talking for Well, I mean, we solved three of the world's problems in the first 30 minutes. I figured we thank everybody and then we can solve some more world problems. Sure. Let me flip over to the boost stay to the boost dashboard. Also known as my email.

1:09:39 Nice dashboard. Let's see later mommy. Dashboard. Some somehow just the word dashboard, it's just going to screws it all up. Just like sad trumpet or whatever it is. Because we flip through here and make sure I can find my starting play. I catch you off guard there Dave. You caught me off guard. Oh, here we go. All right. All right or one time. You know, it's like we're having a good time. Right. Liberty boost from sourced 1776 Thank you source Thank you. 8008 Boob donation from again from source he says calculate that calculate gets you Okay, gotcha. Dubs. C dubs fire. 100. Fire.

1:10:39 Yeah, that's what that was about. 3333 from see Brooklyn 112 And no note 100,000 SATs from blueberry. Ooh, nice. Thank you. Hey, says this is air horn, air horn air horn. First things I asked myself beginning of 2020 was what the hell is an RSS feed has been a sick ride. Thank you both. Wait ahead. I had a special one. I have a special air horn. AIR HORN air horn. There you go. See, some of these are overlap from the last show. I didn't know where to start. I didn't know what the cutoff time was. I'm sorry. i We should probably get out of that in the future. We probably should I need to look at the clock. Oh, Billy.

1:11:24 Billy Bones. 3333 says thank you for creating podcasting. 2.0 Yes, thank you. Bhumi boom. You just sent us 10,000 SATs. donco Thanks. Boom, duck. I'm good. I'm getting there with API Bhoomi I'm getting there. It's going through we will make it work harder. Boom a will put on a pizza under the draw. Blueberry send us 17 776 Super Liberty boost. And he says hello Boosey ALAAP Hillman. Right on Instagram. He says Karen Karen for the mere mortals podcast and it's 100,100 says from curio caster. He says I've been blessed a special number episode and at the time I can join I was actually explaining podcasting 2.0 at a crypto meetup recently. And people really got it when I related how splits can be used for musicians and out to show them at the same time would be amazing. Nice. streamers and dreamers. From sup sup yo, sup 3333 Blueberry against that. Adam, have you seen what Sir bemrose wrote up? Playlists? A lot of these shows have their own IRC room too. It's under playlist.no agenda.

1:12:41 stream.com/live-shows. No, I have not no agenda stream.com/live shows dot htm No, it's live dash shows slash await playlist I know agenda stream.com/live-shows/why The two hour folk our slash rock'n'roll pre show. It's just a schedule. Okay schedule when all the shows come through. All right. Well, let's see. Are we on the schedule? Friday?

1:13:21 Yeah, we're on the schedule, although it says 1700 So we're really 730 Yeah, well, that's UTC. That's old. Okay. Yeah, we're, we're, we're on the schedule. Man. We matter of hours early. Yeah. All right. Thanks. We're late every week. Gene Everett says Happy hundo with 10,000 says thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Mike. Dale says he of blueberry sent us 1073 SATs through fountain and he says congratulations on 100 episodes 73 d k, away. 73 d k eight l m j 70. Threes kilo five Alpha Charlie Charlie Ober citadel. 4949. No note. Thank you, Albert citadel. Oh, wow, there's a string of these. He must have held down the button. Because it's just like for enough, another 1/3 1456788 Bad Boys. I don't know. What is that? What? Eight times 4949 I have no idea. Should I be checking the channels for this one? No, that'll be yes, that bed is a lot Thank you over citadel. Wow.

1:14:40 Anonymous through cast emetics and it's 21,722 SATs and no note. Okay, but thank you anyway, I appreciate that. We SuperCoder is what that is anonymous again 2223 to roadex through cast ematic Thank you. Oh, Roy Schonfeld. Hi 3000 SATs boost Whoa. That's off brand for him. It is off brand. I was expecting some 54321 and he caught me off guard. I think we need to do a wellness check. Well, no, no 100,000 SATs. That's well, he's well, he's very well. Doing well and 100 100 episodes. Wow, mind blown. Thank you, Roy Roy.

1:15:24 Thanks, brother. Appreciate it, man. Sergeant apple. i By the way, 100 guns. And thank you, Roy, thank you for being a part of every single one in one way or the other. Breeze even being on it. Yeah, yes. And Brees just being a phenomenal piece of the puzzle here. Sergeant Apple sent us 5000 SATs through fountain he says Happy 100 guys. Thank you Sarge. Thank you. Sarge, Mere Mortals. Karen and one over there son his 10,101 SATs and he says amazing episode guys. V for V talk and a smooth Aussie accent. What more could a listener want? By the way that Jas ISO is my new favorite. You still get that?

1:16:06 Oh yes, yes, I do have it here. It's kind of cool. He's apple. Come and talk to us, please. Gene Everett 100,000 SATs through fountain at CES proper show 100 booths cheers, Dave and Adam. Oh, thank you, Jen. Cheers, cheers. John cIgi 4761 SATs through the Python boost app of which he built. He says Hi, Dave and Adam and listeners of podcasting. 2.0 Brian of London's Python example code with attitude helped me make this booster grand possible. Oh feels like some kind of hive mind and I dig it anyway. I encourage anyone that isn't already listening to causality to visit engineer dot network, because we analyze what went right and what went wrong.

1:16:52 And we discovered that many outcomes can be predicted planned for and even prevented, and you to decide if the listener that called me dreaming narrator was right or not. So that's how you do weekly advertising on another. And thanks for being on the show, man. It was fun. That was a lot of fun. Pirate huddle sent us 33 seats ready three fountain faces belated Happy Birthday, Adam. Oh, thank you. I was expecting that'd be your 50 A Ryan's I am. Haven't seen a 5858 boost you know No, it'll happen. Mary Oscar also known as Oscar Mary says fell through fountain Easton is 100,100 sets nice.

1:17:39 And he says congrats Dave and Adam on 100 episodes. Apologies to everyone listening on fountain for the recent issues. Payment API's have now been refactored in boosts much faster. Give it a try. Go podcasting. Yeah, see, this is why this is why it didn't solicit 58 sat boosts. You don't want to steer people in the wrong direction when they're celebrating 100,000. You You're what is known as a professional. Well, I can consult because I'll consult you on how to do value for value. I need to a hefty split in your blog, but I'll take it am still a Padawan I'm still a cricket and cricket, Auburn Citadel cricket. In that where he takes the Kung Fu Show with David.

1:18:31 Oh, Grasshopper, grasshopper. Grasshopper, where you can take the pebbles from my hand at this time. You've grasshopper over citadel 100,000 SATs and he said I love boost. Yes. And now as the French say it is timeful reboost. That was our French guy doing Benjamin wish me happy birthday Benjamin Bellamy. He did. Oh, yeah. I'm like any anybody else? I did. I just I just kidding. Donkey sent us 100 SATs and he says exactly. SoundCloud is a scam. Okay.

1:19:13 Okay. So Oh, it doesn't mean we can't be in on it. If there's a good scam going join the party. Part B, send us 1500 says no, no, thank you. Part B. C dubs send us a few. Oh, looks like they're testing stuff. I love this. Every week. There's always a certain amount of boosts that come through. They're like small amounts. There's like test you're getting this Yeah, buddy. There is yes. Integration test. Okay, it works. Yeah, those those are pretty funny. Just called boosting with testing with live money. Yeah. Oh, McCormick. 1234 says I'm slowly pushing my musician friends towards value for value in streaming sets. The intention is there. It's just a matter of Time rocket ship heart.

1:20:02 rocket ship heart. Ajax J Jackson School of podcasting the Hall of Famer sent us 5000 SATs no note all bomber wanted to know from Dave. Dave. mega boost 22 to 22 through cast ematic anonymous no note and that was twice hit the duck for blueberry again blueberry dominating the boards today 333 Just paging see dubs don't just these nerve boost these laughs since 383 sets and he just says boost. Alright man. Thank you.

1:20:44 Sir Shawn McEwen, the dissident yinzer What that means the dissident answer? Why no idea what that means? Cool. Cast cast medics and it's 100,000 sets bomb show is happy 100th Emacs and Vyas code boosting, man Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I want to defragment you Brian mozzie sent us 100,000 SATs also. Congratulations episode 100. Thank you for your courage and thank you for all you do for all your contributions to making podcasting better. Thank you. And I'm so blown away by these 100,000 sat boosts. Me too. Yeah. And it and it's not so much the amount of money it's the fact that people put thought into it. Hey, I'm gonna do something special a little extra. And you express it that way and everybody's happy.

1:21:42 That's the numerology the cast ematic I think Franco I think he had a bug in the last version, because he released it. And all of a sudden, the boost amounts were only in hold dollar value, or almost give me whole set value. So I can only do like 5200 or 5300 i Oh, you couldn't do your 2112 I couldn't end it. Oh, man. It was like, I was like, no, no, I've gone in in a fixed it. I've gone stock to 10,000 just as a boost. 25,000 for Bookstagram. And it's really brought my boosting back a bit. Oh, that's a good idea. Just take meaningful I really mean if I'm gonna send you something within 25,000 SATs because I mean, that's a good one. It's good way to do it. Chris, you know, send us 5000 SATs through pod verse, no message the SLC send us 12345 And he says he or she says I'm a big fan of alternatives. Thank you for your courage. Make kids trade on V for V Yes. No kidding. Oh, I've got one.

1:22:49 I'll go and read this with surgeon 100 SATs in the morning. Congratulations of show 100 David Adam. Thank you. Thank you. 1483 We're reading under under 1000 Again, well, I'm not it's just there was a few notes. I was also 100 Okay, yes cool. Let's get 114 83 from Deelen through fountain nap. No, no thank you. 1234 from calm McCormick again. He says I believe in podcasting. I believe in the people I believe allegiance to the namespace. See, 1000 says from chyron Milmore mere mortals. He says I'm testing out I'll be on pod verse. Enjoy.

1:23:32 Yeah, thank you. Joy. Yes, yes. I'm gonna enjoy testing with cash. Always good plant. Well makes you think about your bugs, doesn't it? It does. 47,099 says through from Brian of London and the hive Dao Hey, hi verse. He says this donation is in honor of my youngest son's surfing boy. Who will be BarMitzvah tomorrow. Mazel Tov to surfing boy. Oh hold on a second. For the surfing boy Ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba surfer bird surfer Okay, mazel tov. Surfing boy. Comic Strip blogger, the delimiter 15,033. SAS, Barry is he says, howdy, David. Adam, please enter AI cooking in your browser for podcatcher to chillax with silky voice of His Majesty. Gregory William forced that Foreman from Kitt. jibber jabbering about artificial intelligence. Yo.

1:24:37 Thank you CSD. All right value for value, you know how it works. Whatever you think this is worth, you're spending your time put it into into some numbers and get a podcast app a new podcast apps.com and send us a boosted gram. Let us know what you think. Let us know why you think it's valuable and That's the beauty of it you get to determine and we get to continue doing this. Another week we appreciate it. We also have monthlies. We got some monthlies, also known as the excruciatingly slow t shirt layaway plan. David meet us $10. Just maraca $5 Cameron rows $25 Jeremy new $5 Lauren ball $24.20 pod verse $50. Thank you pod verse. Mitch Downey, who is also part of five verse $10.

1:25:31 And Christopher hyperbaric $10, that's our monthly good group. Thank you all very much. But not just a good group, a good looking group and beautiful group, you could support us, as with any of the aforementioned new podcast apps, also you can go to podcast index.org Go down to the bottom Big Red donate button if you want to give us Fiat fun coupons through Paypal or credit card, you can use that there or scan the QR codes on chain or lightning, of which no one has made any use this week, or last week. And the week before we did have one. glad everyone's said we should do that. Hey, man, you should put up a pay on chain I'll pay on Joan, can we just just eradicate the word should from podcasting? 2.0 It's gonna be hard.

1:26:20 It's gonna be hard. Anytime somebody says is something you know, some blah, blah, blah. You should. Yeah, that's when I tune out. Yeah, I'm like, okay, whatever. I was like, No, okay. No, I'm alright. Do okay, there's an ISO in there it says Name That dude. I want you to just play this. And I want you to tell me, do you think this is? Can you imagine? Can you imagine? Gosh, I don't know. Dave. Does it sound like does it not sound exactly like Tom woods?

1:27:03 Can you imagine? It has a bit of the cadence. It's not his tone or Tom. But I also thought for a second and might be is it Justin, the guy from disaffected? No, this is that Jeremy boring guy. But he introduced sounded so much like Tom woods to me when I was looking. Oh, it seems like he would be a music guy at Mises Institute libertarian grovel. Yeah. Yeah, you probably listened to Tom woods. There you go. That was fine. That's fine. I've got I've got a I've got a little bit here about what NPR thinks. Thinks about podcasters. Oh, listen to that. Yes.

1:27:49 I'd love to. I'd love to listen to that. Yeah. Where is it? Oh, NPR. I got you. Oh, but then you also do get in podcasting. As was the case in blogging, a certain amount of grifting. And people who stuff is kind of gross as well as just people who aren't following. I don't know the rules that you would want them to follow? If we want them to follow the rules? Oh, yeah, you know, the rules, you'd want them to follow it. What's so fun about the cancelling of podcasts is that it's ineffective. He people go, Oh, I'm gonna take it off Apple, Spotify, and maybe, but the only way to effectively really effectively do it is to go to the host. And that's gonna be fun. That's going to be fun in the future to see how hosts really react when you're really under fire. We haven't seen that yet. Because the people who do cancellation they're too stupid to figure it out. I don't quite know. I mean, they, they'll send us to get it out of the index. Take it down. Suddenly, but it happens, the hard hat this week. And I will read the words of heart and I will read the words of hard hat. On the index. He said on the index Mastodon, he said someone should be able to go to a podcast website, like women maybe. And from the web edit flayer generate a key. Sorry. I think he's I think he's

1:29:25 referring to your, your correct analysis that women you. I'm sorry, ad sales department. What the hell did y'all say? I think he is referring to your correct assertion that women use they listen to podcasts on websites, a lot of players. Yes. Okay. So let me let me rephrase. Someone should be able to go to a podcast website, like women maybe and from the embedded player generate a QR code which they can scan with a lightning wallet to boost the podcast. Oh, I like that too. That says I'd like that idea. Yeah, so this is a valid use case for Ellen. Ellen URL.

1:30:09 Eleanor LP. Yeah. But, but you don't want that. You don't want that to be like the primary method like it. So this this led me down the rabbit hole of should there be an alternative method you just said should not I'm talking to the universe. Oh, okay. Could Okay, could could there be an alternative method in the value blog where you could say, Okay, here's the primary method keys and here's an old here's the alternative or sort of fallback method? Ellen, your OP. Because you'd want to have both, sometimes under certain situations. Maybe.

1:31:08 I don't know, man, the Ellen URL mafia just pissed me off with this approach. I'm like, why would I help those guys with anything? They don't care? They just want it in there. They're not going to develop they're not going to do anything. I can do anything. And the lazy ass bitches we got. So like, if we're doing their job for them. Yeah, exactly. And that just there's still ways you're sure you're sure that you'd have this that you know that okay, well, all right. We're good to put it in. Man. We'll promote it. I love I love what we put together Dave, the only person who has to work as you unfortunately. But when we tell and the lb paper the lb guys are we this is what's so beautiful. You know, it's like hey, let's do it. We'll we'll talk about it. We'll point people towards it get it going. Where most people fall away with their criticism or their shoulds.

1:31:58 Well, my Bhumi Michael from Albie, emailed me this morning and said they have their their key send address format down. So now everybody who has an lb address, oh, this direct key sent out to US Customs? Yeah, the will if if you use your day that get or like for me b.com Okay, yeah, we can now resolve that to a tee send address. sweet vanilla. And instead of a invoice you get are both 11 Are we I love it. I love it. In the it resolves to David get ab.com goes to get lb.com/dot Well dash known slash key send slash Dave. And so it's not just a test.

1:32:44 It's not just a text file that has the JSON in or something. Yeah, exactly. And it's got. But the cool thing here is it's got there and it's got the node and it's got the custom key custom value for the routing. Oh, cool. Excellent. So you can do it. Oh, nice. So just pop that into your well that you know, the apps will need to support it will need to know that exists. So if they see a lightning address, they can look for that now. And love it a cash ID or whatever. I love it. Yeah, I'm glad that he just did it. Yeah. Because if you go petition the lab they're never gonna give you there. They're just gonna talk that man we got to be careful. These Germans man, you know, they may be here to take over the world. And before wake up one day we're speaking Deutsch. I thought the French were going to do it for a minute there was Benjamin Ah, I know how podcasting. 2.0. And as usual, the French and the Germans will go to war together.

1:33:38 No, yeah. The front and then the French will call us and we'll get involved. The SSC. So the XMPP stuff? Yes. This needs to be discussed. Yeah. Yes. I think we need to bring some people on into the board meeting to discuss this. He think we need to bring I'm thinking Alex. Yes. Alex for maybe Mitch because he's already doing Yeah, right. He's already putting IRC into the interface. Hmm. I think Alex and Mitch would. I think we need to bring in the thing we need to bring in the XMPP. Committee. Oh, yes. The XMPP committee. Tat the XMPP Task Force. Task Force striking. No, no steering committee. Now like striker team better. Guns.

1:34:31 Oh, yes. All right. It's like, Hey, welcome to the XMPP StrikeForce here's your gear. And I've been tested for you. It works fine. Perfect. Mitch. Mitch safety. Hey, get that get that booger finger off that trigger? Well, because I've got it I'm clip heavy. Today I'm dominated with clips here. I want to play this Is it because this is relevant to this discussion, current play karmic capability versus destination? So we were talking about that back in the Doom and Quake days about how do you wind up with an interconnected set of worlds that you kind of visit from one to another. And as web pages were becoming a thing, you start thinking about how what is the interactive kind of 3d based equivalent of this? And there were a lot of really bad takes you had like, verbal been I've Virtual Reality markup languages. And there's aspects like that, that that came from people saying, well, what would what kind of capabilities should we develop to, to enable this, and that kind of capability first, work has usually not panned out very well. On the other hand, we have successful games that started with things like Doom and Quake and communities that formed around those and whether it was server lists in the early days, or literal portaling between different games, and then modern things that are on completely

1:36:01 different order of magnitude, like Minecraft and fortnight that have 100 million plus users. I'm, you know, I still think that that's the right way to go to build the metaverse is you build something that's amazing that people love and people wind up spending all their time in, because it's awesome. And you expand the capabilities of that, even if it's a very basic experience, as long as Minecraft is Minecraft is amazing case study, and so many things were able to be done with that is really enlightening. And there are other cases where like, right now Roblox is basically a game construction kit aimed at kids. And that was capability first play, and it's achieving scale that's on the same order of those things. So it's not impossible, but my preferred bet would be you make something amazing that people love and you make it better and better.

1:36:55 Yes, so he's talking about building to a capability versus building to a destination, or a board or product. And I think that's relevant to the work that we're doing, you know, here with everybody, everybody building things here in podcasting. 2.0. You know, he's, he's right, that there is a danger of building towards a capability, you say, Okay, we want to be able to do this thing. Now, let's build a spec. And then the products will follow. And I think we've probably been more successful than we otherwise would have. As a project. I agree. Yeah. Maybe maybe because of luck and pent up demand. But there will be a in the reason I'm bringing this up now is because when it comes to chat, live chat. I think this will become a problem if we don't do this. Right. And this is why I've been a little I've been a little hesitant to even start, because what you have is an existing, you have you don't have a lot of shows that do live chat. Very, very few actually. Yeah, very few you. You've got with Node and Node industry, ATP.

1:38:08 Now, let me say upfront that what I'm looking for is doing this with video. Because that's where that's what people are looking to bail from YouTube. Right. And there's, there's a pent up demand for that. So existing. I mean, it there's never really been this infrastructure. So we're building something that really works for few existing shows what I want to actually I think in the value for value model works very well look at Spencer's stuff and blueberry and I mean, no agenda stream in general, you know, like everyone's boosting around the doing all kinds of stuff. That's all based on a lot of live. There's there's a lot of shows that take place live through no agenda stream. But the opportunity is the people who are doing stuff live on YouTube, they have stream yard, they want to add something, you know, and that we have the feedback loop. If it was just a way to stream to an app, I don't think we'd get any uptake because there's the ability to have the booster grams. That's why this is I think there's a perceived demand for this.

1:39:21 Yes, yeah. Yeah, I can see which I see what you're saying. Because you you have so you need the whole thing. You need the whole stack you do and the stack already exists in certain places. The challenge is to package the stack in a way that it's portable, where other people can do it without it breaking their back, like technology wise and effort wise, right. And so, if you but you also have to at the same time, not build a whole new stack in force the exists Getting people to adopt that stack are great. Like, because what you don't want is to say, Okay, well, Fun Fact Friday, ATP, no agenda.

1:40:11 We're all going to do this thing. And we've built this great thing. We've integrated XMPP into all the apps. So it's great. I'll just y'all just all get rid of your IRC chat and getting switched to XMPP. Correct. You don't want to do that. You don't want yeah, that's built that's building to a capability and not to an existing destination. pletely agree. And if we do good, no, don't go ahead, please, if we do both, is generally where I think we've had success as a project. Because people, there's always one part of podcasting, people know that's built, it's this pushing things into the existing stack, like, I'm thinking about the boost bot work. And people using its people is driven by users driven by applications.

1:41:00 Yeah, they're like, we already have this thing, we just want to stick this, we just want to put this new thing into our existing thing. To plug that in, right. And then there's this other part, that would be sort of like Spurlock and Alex, who are building to a capability and saying, okay, that thing that already exists, doesn't scale, it's not going to do the thing that you want it to do. And so we, if you want to go to the next level, you need this other thing, and here's that thing, we're gonna give it to you. And you really have, when they're when both have existed, there's been a lot of success there. And I think we can do the same thing, I think we have to do the same thing with live chat, we have to support we have to, we have to integrate the two XMPP, to me, is clearly superior to IRC for many reasons, when it comes to being able to do multi app chat, but also, you just, it's just not realistic to make people switch off RC. So there needs to be there needs to be gateways there or linkage there between the two, where they can coexist. So that so that we have even the framework or mind a mental model of how to design this live chat tag, I completely agree. That's an to me, that's the only way to go.

1:42:34 From what I understand there's a way to bridge XMPP to IRC, and what I don't find acceptable as well, you know, that's going to be a pain in the ass for people with IRC servers, I think I think you make that happen, you know, if you really want to do this, then you'll figure out how to get the bridge in, I think it was like, that should be the only concession for the IRC users. You may have to you have to might have to snap into bridge or something that shouldn't be, you know, we do it once 90% of the people using it can do it. And that's what I'm thinking about for the for the tag. So you know, we ship the tag, at some point, we say, Okay, here's the attributes, here's all the ways the tag is going to describe where the IRC chat lives, or whatever this chat is, you know, whatever this thing is, where it lives in then, if it's IRC, there's also this recommendation that says, Okay, now go, you know, you need an XMPP bridge. Here it is. Yeah, and you can plug that in, and you're good. You're then you're good to go. Love, love. Yeah, it can't just be the tag. But we also have to know what the other thing what the other component is, is going to be before we can create the tag because otherwise you'll have you'll have fast implement the tag. Yeah.

1:43:53 Sounds good. Right, you got me you got me. 100% on that 100 was 100 at one time. That was easier. That's all it was? No, not at all. No, no, ma'am. After after, you know, have we been together? 35 years, I think. I think we figured out you know, we know how to work with each other. You know, all my favorite recipes, shall we? Should we call this? This meeting adjourned? I've got an I've got a nice so I don't know. It'd be a disappointment.

1:44:35 After that jolly old punch line. Probably. Let's see. What do you got on the podcaster? Okay, I'm a podcaster. Ah, little flat. Flat, just a little flat. Brother. This was good. I have to go back and listen and figure out all the things we solved. I know we saw something we did. Maybe more than one thing but maybe Good, buddy, thank you so much for supporting us with the value for value. Have a great weekend. We'll be back next week with the board meeting of podcasting 2.0 You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcast index.org for more information.

1:45:32 I'm a podcaster All right, all right, ending the stream shit, man. We I seriously, I have to go back and listen. I don't remember all the things that we fixed but we fixed them. So proud of us. We faced him by accident. I really don't know what happened. But we did something. I remember the feeling. I remember liking the feeling. I'm kind of the same way this is I don't know. It's like, overcast and gloomy here and Oh, really? Yeah. But I'm like, I'm kind of in a fog and light. Yeah, we did some cool stuff.

1:46:14 We didn't just don't remember what it was. Alright, man, I'll get this up and out ASAP. Bro. I'm headed back to work. And have a great weekend. Dave. Man