Episode 173: Pugnacious Proclivities

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Adam Curry: podcasting 2.0 From
March 29 2024, episode 173

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Ignatius proclivities Hello,
everybody once again, welcome to

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the official board meeting of
podcasting point. Oh, this is

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where we discuss podcasting.
That's right. You may be in Los

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Angeles, city of devils. You may
be hanging out there thinking

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you're discussing the future of
podcasting, but it's all right

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here and it's live every single
Friday afternoon, everything

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going on with podcasts,
index.org, podcasts, index dot

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social podcasting, two.org, you
name it. We are the only

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boardroom that refuses to be on
YouTube. I'm Adam curry here in

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the heart of the Texas Hill
Country. And in Alabama, the man

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whose activity pub bridge is
stronger than the one in

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Baltimore Harbor. Hello, name
Joe.

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Dave Jones: That's, this is this
is where I furiously try to eat

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as much popcorn as possible
while you're doing the intro. So

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that my mouth is not full. When
you pitch to me, well,

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Adam Curry: well, people should
understand that. We have day

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jobs. Your day job is actually a
Monday to Friday. And you have a

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job that requires you to be very
active right around tax time,

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which is twice a year in your
world. It is October and April.

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Dave Jones: This what is this? I
saw a picture of Sam Sethi

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heading a board meeting of those
something about 2.0 in Oh, no.

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Oh, yes. Angeles. Oh, there's a
competing boardroom?

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Adam Curry: No, no, no, no, no,
he has offered himself to be the

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spokesmodel for the for the
spokes. Oh, I think spokesmodel

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is better for the podcast
Standards Project. Yes. So they

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have a meeting out there.

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Dave Jones: What are we doing
here?

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Adam Curry: I don't know. I
didn't get a memo. Did you get

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anyone else in the boardroom got
a memo? I didn't get a memo for

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you did

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Dave Jones: make an appearance
at Podcast Movement though.

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Which looks very much like the
Bill Gates. 1984 Apple, and it

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Adam Curry: was exactly what I
was thinking. I had no idea. So

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James very kindly asked me to
produce a video about

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podcasting. 2.0 about two
minutes. Well, what can you do

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in two minutes? So I that's what
you said. Dude. So I did and it

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was just me static in the
studio, in the way it portrayed,

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which by the way, they look
really nice. That room, the

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stage looked nice. Everyone had
nice theater seats. You know,

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great background center stage.
And then on either side was a

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huge monitor in my head
appeared. And yeah, looking at

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that, I'm like, wow, it is like
1980 for the period. I have no

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time to hang out with you plebs
over there. I'll just let you

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know what I really think is
going on. Now

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Dave Jones: you did the best
thing that you like, this was

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the ultimate win. Win win for a
Podcast Movement is you get to

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be there but you don't have to
know.

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Adam Curry: Exactly. That's the
best way to do it. I'd like to

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attend all conferences that way.
So just hit me up and I'll

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record a video for you. No
problem. No problem. Yeah. So I

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was listening to how you doing
brother? You okay, everything

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good.

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Dave Jones: I'm digging my way
out of this out of this allergy

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hole.

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Adam Curry: Oh, goodness. Is
that time of year again?

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Dave Jones: Is this this is
pine, pine pollen. In the south.

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It's just like, if you haven't
been in this in the southeast

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during during March, April. It's
just basically a blanket of

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yellow.

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Adam Curry: We have we have crap
right now. We we've got it here

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too in the southwest, Southwest.

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Dave Jones: So in Texas, is it
like is it the way it is here

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when the wind blows? Yep. It's
like yellow, a yellow wave. A

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Adam Curry: waft a waft of stuff
he has like a cloud goes through

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the air.

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Dave Jones: Yeah, Paul is a
pollen tornado that goes through

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now we have that we

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Adam Curry: just got over cedar
fever. We have that. The trees

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just go. And they also emanate
this cloud of stuff. But hey,

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that's why we live here. We live
we live in in these areas for

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the food. It

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Dave Jones: makes our makes our
bodies stronger. Boot Camp like

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boot camp for, you know for your
immune system. So

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Adam Curry: we have a couple of
things to discuss. And I wanted

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to start off with some advice
and some some historical

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experience and experience.
Because we're there's some

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things that are moving off track
a little bit and it's

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specifically as it pertains to
value for value So I want to do

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a quick little Redux and re
introduction for many what value

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for value is and the how I have
made it work for myself, and for

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Jhansi. Dvorak for 16, will be
it'll be 17 years in October.

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And we've lived off of this. So
it actually weren't

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Dave Jones: you say we've lived
off of it. I mean, like, this is

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been your full time job for 16.
For no for

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Adam Curry: for 1414 years,
probably for almost 15 years

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full time, but I've not done
anything else. I've tried some

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other things. But this, this is
what has paid the rent, has put

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a couple kids through school has
kept our wives happy. Although

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no, that's not true. But which
one is which one,

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Dave Jones: I'm making stuff up.

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Adam Curry: And then there's a
very good website value for

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value dot info, value number
four, value dot info, which

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explains all of these things,
because people are starting to

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treat what we have in podcasting
to point out as other things.

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And I just want to give my
experience, how it's worked for

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me and how it was designed
initially. And sometimes it's

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good to just have a reminder,
and this comes from conversation

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I heard on pod news weekly
review,

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Dave Jones: where, where I knew
this was coming.

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Adam Curry: Well, Sam has been
working well. Sam works with

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lots of people. And I really
appreciate what he does, because

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he'll just throw everything at
the wall and then go out and

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throw it in your face to make it
stick. And And this, by the way,

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activity streams, which we'll
get to. I'm glad he did that,

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because it got me to open up
about that and think about and

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I'm kind of excited. But he's
been working with Barry at pod

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home. And when I heard that they
added was a part of Phase seven.

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But the medium equals courses,
or course I think it is I II

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it's an educational course. And
that Barry is setting a minimum

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price that you must pay, I need
to stop and say let me explain

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how this works. Because you're
going to have disappointing

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results. With with value from
the genesis of value for value,

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which was not the book 1000 true
fans. Now this goes way back way

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back 16, almost 17 years ago, we
started no agenda. And within a

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couple of weeks, we were like
this is actual work. You need to

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compensate us for this. We
didn't want to go down the

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advertising route. And also to
be candid. It's not that I'm

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against advertising. I hate
meetings. I didn't want to meet

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with clients about that. That
was really and neither does

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John. So that was really the
main reason why.

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Dave Jones: And that's not I
mean that that sounds like a

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trite thing. But I mean, let's,
I can't tell you how many

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advertising roundtables I've
seen where they have they talk

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endlessly for 20 to 30 minutes
about how to get the, the, the

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host to show up for a meeting
where they can describe what

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they want him to say. Yeah, it's
this is this is not a this is

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not a thing to discount. No,

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Adam Curry: I'm not, I'm not.
And I've been in commercial

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broadcasting all my life. So I
understand that extremely well.

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I'm like, here's an opportunity.
And so I didn't want to do that

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knew that, John. At the time, we
also were in a company that ran

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on advertisements, and we saw
that it was basically cheap, the

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content is produce the content
as cheaply as possible and then

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put ads all over it. That's you
know, like a NASCAR only put the

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sponsor stickers on the
windshield. So we decided to ask

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people to contribute. And we
said, Why don't you set up a Pay

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Pal subscription for I think it
was actually $2 a month, but

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I'll say it was five just to
make it easy, or not not a month

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that was I think per show or per
week doesn't even matter. It was

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a subscription based thing. I
think we did $2 Because it'd be

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easy to calculate one for you.
One for me, that's how simple it

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was. Of course, we produce
everything ourselves. It's very

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important in podcasting, that if
you can't produce it yourself,

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you're gonna have a very hard
time living off of it. That's

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good. I guarantee that. Well, we
got the the expected results, we

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got maybe about $200 a month. I
mean, it was very, very

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disappointing. And we expressed
our disappointment like we do

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like this what we're doing,
because if you're listening you

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clearly like it for some reason.
They said worth anything to you.

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Is it is it. I mean, please tell
us, just send them whatever you

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think it's worth. And we got
many more by asking just by

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asking which remember, my wife
is a now retired from corporate

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life. A chief communications
officer for nonprofits. She's

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always said to me out of the
number one reason why people

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don't donate to a nonprofit is
they didn't get asked that

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surprising, but people Oh, you
need money. Okay, well, he

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didn't ask me. That's and they
could be at an event then Don't

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even donate money. But if you
ask them, then suddenly they do.

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So you have to have,

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Dave Jones: I can confirm, I can
confirm this. In many ways I've,

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I used to have, along with a
friend of mine a, an apologetics

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ministry here. And we did things
in many states here in the

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south. And we would go to our
and our initial idea was we

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wanted to bring it for free. And
we would just ask for, we would

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ask for donations. All of us
were too scared, or too nervous

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to ask from the pulpit or
wherever we were for a donation.

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And then And guess what? Nobody,
nobody ever gave us any money.

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Yes, it all came out of our own
pocket. It's amazing. As soon as

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we got some balls, and started
asking that they people people

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started giving,

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Adam Curry: asking you shall be
answered. Yes, knock on the door

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shall be opened, seek and you
shall find. So yes, this is this

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is prophecy. So we asked, and we
got a lot of people sending $50

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This was very surprising. Not
only that, but several people

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sent $500 And one person sent
$5,000. All because we asked the

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difference between $200 in a
month. And it was probably six

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and a half 1000 Because we asked
in one episode, we never looked

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back. Now this

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Dave Jones: needs to be
documented like in I would love

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to hear the evolution of how
this sounded on air. Time.

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Adam Curry: Good one, I'm gonna
go I'm gonna look for that.

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That's a very good point,
because I want to know exactly

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what episode we started that.
That's, that's a great point.

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Thank you. But I can probably
look through the transcripts.

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Very quickly, we noticed that
people really wanted a reason to

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donate. And one of those reasons
would be that they would add a

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note. And on Pay Pal, you can
add a little note the notes.

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It's, it's changed over time as
to how long that note can be in

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the actual PayPal description.
But the idea is is supposed to

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be pretty short. And we would
read those now in the beginning,

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we read them all and then it
became too much and people would

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send like $2 $5. And then when a
certain point, we said, look,

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we're only going to read notes
above a certain amount, just for

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brevity sake just for time sake.
And people understood that and

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many people to this day, we may
have I can look at it right now

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we have eight notes that we will
read, which has been for a long

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time, the even despite inflation
has been $200 or above. But

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there's 400 donations for each
show. And we don't talk at the

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end, it goes all the way down to
$1. And there's usually a bunch

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of 50s. And then a whole bunch
of people do 1111. And they do

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all kinds of stuff. We found
quickly, people really enjoyed

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that feedback loop. And it was
well known from the beginning,

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we're going to read your note,
if you send it above a certain

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amount, that note is going to be
read. And pretty much everyone

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under that amount doesn't even
send in a note anymore. They

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just send in the money like this
is what it was worth to be here

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you go here. Here's the cash.
And we've been using PayPal

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exclusively for all this time, I
think we just added stripe and

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that has helped for some foreign
payments. But over time, we

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learned that this ask really
became important people would

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would would start to count up
their their amounts I have

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donated this much. Do I get a
tote bag now like NPR? But like

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no, no. So we gamified it. Then
we have premium concert and I

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was living in the UK at the
time. He said well make you a

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night make you a night with an
origin around say why should the

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Queen be the only one who can do
that? That's just off the cuff.

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And if you're a woman then it
will be a Dane. And it wasn't

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until I landed in Texas now 14
years ago. And so it was

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probably there was actually
maybe 11 years ago I met Jean

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and surgeon was a night and he
said hey, you know it's $1,000

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if you $1,000 over the entire
length of the time that you've

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donated and you you do your own
bookkeeping will trust you honor

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system, then you become a knight
and we have a little ceremony to

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this day, we still have a
ceremony we have a sword sound

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and everything. It's all theater
of the mind. But it's a

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community aspect. And over time
we start sending out a signet

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ring with sealing wax they have
in the certificate of

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authenticity, it's all it's I
mean, it's basically a cheap

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Chinese ring. And it costs us a
couple 100 bucks. It's you know,

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many people there it's worn off
the silver has gone as tungsten

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underneath. But that's not the
point. It represents a

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contribution to the to the to
the program. And we also never

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call people listeners we always
considered them producers

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because we added to that, that
you can support us with time,

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talent or treasure. We've also
never built a website never

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hosted our own infrastructure.
never done any Are any of that

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because people consider that
also a contribution and it is a

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one for one contribution. Go
ahead and set up a website or

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outsource it now way go and go
and contract artists to do image

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art every single show. You know,
we get 2030 different

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submissions to choose from and
it's become competitive. So now

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Dave Jones: the same with it
same with this show. I mean so

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every time every time Steven
crater goes and fixes a podcast

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duplicate problem in the in the
database it's that's a monetary

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yeah seem to me yeah every time
Eric every time every PP submits

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a version of Hello pad to start
nine or to Umbral that's that's

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worth an immense amount of
monetary and time to me Yes,

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Adam Curry: exactly and to me
we're both dealing with with

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stuff but to you much, much more
anytime someone does something,

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a pull request for the website
with an update. It's all time

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talent and treasure, even just
sometimes sending a happy email

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saying thanks for what you guys
do you know how happy that makes

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me happier than $50? Let me tell
you that it makes me feel really

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good. So then we gamified it
because Jean said, Hey, I made

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$1,000 on a nightly I got
nothing else, you know, I have

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nothing to aspire to. Oh, well,
why don't we just do periods

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what comes after night Vikon.
What comes after that Baronet

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will come after that Baron. So
every $1,000 in aggregate and it

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could be over 10 years, it
doesn't matter. Even someone who

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donates $10 a month, eventually
they become a knight as long as

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we stay in business, it is a
very fair system, because people

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only will support you what they
find the product is worth. If

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they don't like it, they won't
donate. But if you don't ask,

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they won't donate either. And if
it's not an outstanding product,

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they will not support you. And
you have to continuously be

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reminding people, this is how we
make it work. This is why this

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show is here. It's just as much
your show as it is our show.

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This also circumvents another
problem, the the you need to do

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this because otherwise I'm
unsubscribing I'm not gonna send

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you any money anymore. This is
why I don't like subscriptions.

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Because then people think that
they can say, Well, you

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shouldn't be doing this, you
know, you're you're biting the

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hand that feeds you. Now, in
this case, we do exactly what we

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do. We believe it's a great
product. If you don't like it,

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then you have no value, then why
are you even listening, you

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shouldn't be supporting us at
all go away. And and I'll say it

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00:17:19,860 --> 00:17:26,100
that way, it's fine. So we built
this up over these years. And

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we've learned a couple things
along the way. Numerology is

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very important. I think that's
carried over very well to the

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value for value streaming, SATs
and boosting SATs and booster

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grams. As we see by the numbers,
people love reasons to donate.

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We also send out a newsletter to
remind them before every single

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show, the newsletter contains
content. But basically it's Hey,

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00:17:49,110 --> 00:17:51,930
we're doing the show support us.
I'm not going to be bashful

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00:17:51,930 --> 00:17:55,560
about it and, and divorce looks
much worse than I am. So here we

287
00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:59,580
are. 17 years later, I'm going
to be 60 this year, John's in

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00:17:59,580 --> 00:18:02,820
his 70s. And we're still doing
phenomenally well, for a

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00:18:02,820 --> 00:18:06,750
podcast, we have according to
Opie three stats around the

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00:18:06,750 --> 00:18:10,980
900,000 downloaders learned if
you can't say listener,

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00:18:10,980 --> 00:18:17,070
downloaders, unique audience,
whatever it is, and, and, and,

292
00:18:17,100 --> 00:18:20,670
you know, we've never really had
any horrible issues throughout

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00:18:20,670 --> 00:18:24,030
all those years, it goes up and
down. Yeah. So you can't, you

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00:18:24,030 --> 00:18:27,060
know, if you if you make a nice
bundle one show, don't blow it

295
00:18:27,060 --> 00:18:31,380
all. Because it may dip a little
bit based upon vacations,

296
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holidays, all kinds of stuff,
tax time, right before tax time

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00:18:36,150 --> 00:18:38,940
horrible right after tax time
people get their returns, they

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start donating. So there's all
these things that you learn over

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time. It will be very
disappointing if you start

300
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putting in a minimum amount that
people have to pay, because

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people will then only pay that
amount. I know this from

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00:18:54,720 --> 00:19:01,680
experience. So but if you don't
ask, and if you don't thank

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00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:04,560
people however you do it. And I
think that you don't have to

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have exactly our our system. But
it what we are not doing here.

305
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So when when we created
podcasting two point out the

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index, and the namespace, the
namespace was really to put in

307
00:19:16,350 --> 00:19:19,800
the lightning payments that you
know, we needed a namespace, and

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00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:24,900
I think was it chapters that we
that we put in there from all

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the other namespace that we that
we took that from the pod log,

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what was it? Oh,

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Dave Jones: yeah, yeah, well,
that was the whole feed. Yeah,

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00:19:34,260 --> 00:19:35,790
in theory chapters, right.

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Adam Curry: But it was really to
get this going and then over

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time that evolved into booster
grams, which is now replicating

315
00:19:44,580 --> 00:19:49,980
with almost zero friction is
replicating the idea of a PayPal

316
00:19:49,980 --> 00:19:55,860
payment with a note in the
message. Right. So that is how

317
00:19:55,860 --> 00:19:59,370
value for value works. And you
can listen to no agenda you can

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00:19:59,370 --> 00:20:02,790
listen to well Even this show,
it is not. And so now we're

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00:20:02,790 --> 00:20:08,370
going to move over to I was
listening to Sam with January,

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00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:13,470
Daniel J. Lewis, talking about
activity streams, which is

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00:20:13,470 --> 00:20:17,070
something I'm very interested in
and integrating activity pub, I

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00:20:17,070 --> 00:20:21,540
need to get Sam Sethi off the
idea that the T O V record is

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somehow trying to be what
activity streams is. It's not,

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it is a purely a message in a
payment. That works exactly like

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a message in a PayPal payment.
We're not trying to jam all

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kinds of stuff in there. It is a
beautiful, seamless,

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00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:45,030
frictionless way to replicate
the functionality of a PayPal

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payment within with a message.
It is also so and I heard this

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00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,740
said and it really disturbed me.
It is not a comment with the

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00:20:52,740 --> 00:20:58,320
payments. No, it is a support
that can have a note with it.

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It's not a comment with a
payment. It's the other

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Dave Jones: way around. It's

333
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Adam Curry: the other way
around. It's a nation with a

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common Yes. And if we're if
we're treating it just like so.

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Apparently, there's some outfit
that's in Los Angeles,

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00:21:13,860 --> 00:21:18,240
pocket.fm. And they raised you
know, 100 million dollars and

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00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:22,560
they're doing microtransactions.
It's not value for value, that

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00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:27,090
is microtransactions. The value
for value is it is a

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monetization system. It is a
programming format. It is not

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the microtransactions is just
what it does. But when you force

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people to pay X amount, you're
going to be disappointed. Look

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00:21:40,170 --> 00:21:43,860
at all the streamers it's not
working, you will ultimately

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only have one streaming or maybe
two, and everything else will be

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rolled into it. I can predict
the future. I'm from the future.

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Trust me on this, it's already
falling apart. So TLVs are not

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where we want to put activity
stuff. In fact, the TLV record

347
00:22:01,470 --> 00:22:04,530
is very limited. You know,
there's only so much space, it

348
00:22:04,530 --> 00:22:08,220
was perfect for what it's doing
right now. Absolutely perfect.

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00:22:08,580 --> 00:22:15,690
heli pad is a reader. It's like
looking at my PayPal. In fact,

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00:22:15,690 --> 00:22:20,220
it looks exactly like PayPal. It
has it has all the payments, the

351
00:22:20,220 --> 00:22:22,980
name the amount and if I click
on it, I can see the message.

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00:22:23,010 --> 00:22:26,400
That's what it is. Now there's
other things that it can do. But

353
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:31,320
that's in essence what it does
this the TLV record for for

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00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,620
streaming payments and boosts
and booster grams. That's it now

355
00:22:35,190 --> 00:22:38,340
go and listen to I'll give an
example this week in Bitcoin

356
00:22:38,340 --> 00:22:42,060
listen to it, what he's doing
over there. He started from zero

357
00:22:42,060 --> 00:22:47,010
he's already doing 100 Sometimes
a couple $100 an episode in SATs

358
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:51,240
because he's doing the thank you
segment. He's also saying this

359
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:55,860
is what makes the show work. You
need to support me not send me a

360
00:22:55,860 --> 00:22:59,100
booster gram send me a note
haha, I'll read it. Or it's a

361
00:22:59,100 --> 00:23:03,060
comment because happens to show
up on fountain. That's not what

362
00:23:03,060 --> 00:23:03,720
it is.

363
00:23:08,940 --> 00:23:13,470
One other thing, because this
also came up in in the future

364
00:23:13,470 --> 00:23:20,910
podcasting podcast. The payments
are inherently public. This is

365
00:23:20,910 --> 00:23:24,000
not what you send a private
message to your podcaster. So

366
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,840
let's get off the whole idea of
Oh, it's a privacy issue that

367
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:32,010
multiple people get the message?
No, it's inspirational and

368
00:23:32,010 --> 00:23:36,060
aspirational. Go look at any
crowdfunding site. What do you

369
00:23:36,060 --> 00:23:40,860
see? You see name, amount and
maybe a message. And why does

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00:23:40,860 --> 00:23:44,370
that work? Why do they do that?
Because people like Oh, looks

371
00:23:44,370 --> 00:23:47,100
like everyone's given 100 bucks,
I'll give 100 bucks. Or you know

372
00:23:47,100 --> 00:23:50,790
what? I feel like I should give
more give 200 bucks. Can I make

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00:23:50,790 --> 00:23:54,750
myself anonymous? Well, yes, and
V for V payments in apps are

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00:23:54,750 --> 00:23:58,920
inherently anonymous. You can
put whatever name you want in

375
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,040
there. So all these things are
important if you want to make

376
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:08,730
the full value for value system
work. If you're skipping steps,

377
00:24:08,850 --> 00:24:12,900
if you're not understanding the
guy, hit me up. I'll explain

378
00:24:12,900 --> 00:24:16,200
that to you again, privately. If
you don't understand the whole

379
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,560
system, it will not work for you
and you're going to get exactly

380
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,370
what you deserve. That's why
when I hear people still saying

381
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:28,980
tipping, no, it's not a tip. If
you're asking for tips, then

382
00:24:29,010 --> 00:24:34,290
you're gonna get tip money. You
need to speak specifically about

383
00:24:34,290 --> 00:24:37,830
the support. This is not for
everybody. And not everybody has

384
00:24:37,890 --> 00:24:41,730
a podcast that will be good
enough that enough people listen

385
00:24:41,730 --> 00:24:44,970
and care about it. They're going
to support it. That is the value

386
00:24:44,970 --> 00:24:49,050
for value system. Value for
value dot info. You can review

387
00:24:49,050 --> 00:24:55,020
it. There's guides there's
there's detailed examples of how

388
00:24:55,020 --> 00:24:58,500
it works. You can in fact turn
this into a lifestyle

389
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,090
Dave Jones: I think we're, I
think there's some fundamental

390
00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:06,660
misunderstandings that
financially with with things and

391
00:25:06,660 --> 00:25:09,810
it's under, it's just it is
understandable to me how those

392
00:25:09,810 --> 00:25:13,680
things can get misinterpreted.
One is that one of the

393
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,550
misunderstandings is that things
is that there's a fundamental

394
00:25:17,550 --> 00:25:23,190
difference between the audience
behavior, when you're

395
00:25:23,910 --> 00:25:29,970
advertising supported, when
you're when you're value for

396
00:25:29,970 --> 00:25:35,850
value, or when you are
subscription based human

397
00:25:35,850 --> 00:25:41,040
behavior. So, in the, in the, in
the economics world, this would

398
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:45,510
be called like a praxeology.
Human behavior is always is the

399
00:25:45,510 --> 00:25:50,040
same. A human is going to behave
finance in within in regards

400
00:25:50,070 --> 00:25:54,690
like financially, we each were
each unique. And we're always

401
00:25:54,690 --> 00:25:59,820
going to operate according to
our own manner, our own

402
00:25:59,820 --> 00:26:03,960
personality, with regard,
whether it's advertising based,

403
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,270
whether the content we're
listing is advertising based,

404
00:26:06,270 --> 00:26:10,770
subscription based, or whatever.
And so what I mean by that is,

405
00:26:11,250 --> 00:26:16,380
we, you think that, okay, if I
just put a minimum, if I'm

406
00:26:16,380 --> 00:26:19,980
making the minimum, which is
essentially a subscription, if I

407
00:26:19,980 --> 00:26:24,210
may, if that if I don't do that,
people are just going to be,

408
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:28,050
they're just going to listen to
my stuff for free. Well, that

409
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,410
your that doesn't fundamentally
change how many people listen to

410
00:26:31,410 --> 00:26:36,420
your stuff. So like, what I mean
by that is, a person who's not

411
00:26:36,450 --> 00:26:40,020
going to pay you anything, is
just never going to listen to

412
00:26:40,020 --> 00:26:44,880
your show period. Like you don't
get anything from extra from

413
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,330
that you're not, you're not
creating a customer where there

414
00:26:48,330 --> 00:26:53,760
was not one before, you've
already produced the content. So

415
00:26:53,790 --> 00:26:58,830
having 10 extra people listened
to it doesn't mean that those 10

416
00:26:58,830 --> 00:27:01,770
people would have paid you if
you had made it a subscription.

417
00:27:02,460 --> 00:27:06,720
Like you're not getting more for
that. Correct, because it's and

418
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:11,970
then it's but but it's also the
same with advertising. So just

419
00:27:11,970 --> 00:27:15,090
because you're advertising the
advertising, and I want to talk

420
00:27:15,090 --> 00:27:19,650
about this a lot more. When we
talk about pod verse. I mean,

421
00:27:19,650 --> 00:27:25,470
the advertising thing just puts
a layer of fog over this whole

422
00:27:25,470 --> 00:27:33,540
process, you You appear to be
making making more money. And a

423
00:27:33,540 --> 00:27:36,570
woman you are I'm not
necessarily the same but you

424
00:27:36,570 --> 00:27:39,660
appear it, it takes that whole
thing and it puts a layer of

425
00:27:39,660 --> 00:27:44,580
option obfuscation between it,
it's sort of like it's sort of

426
00:27:44,580 --> 00:27:47,730
like paying you're going to the
doctor and paying them directly

427
00:27:47,730 --> 00:27:50,610
versus paying them through an
insurance company. Now there's a

428
00:27:50,610 --> 00:27:54,900
middle now there's a middle
layer, yes. And what it does is,

429
00:27:54,960 --> 00:28:01,200
is it it just like a health
insurance layer, it takes the it

430
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,950
takes what would be a sort of a
sliding scale of variable

431
00:28:04,950 --> 00:28:08,820
income. And it just chops you
off at the knees. Once you go

432
00:28:08,820 --> 00:28:12,390
below a certain level. People
below a certain amount of

433
00:28:12,390 --> 00:28:15,810
listeners don't get any
advertising revenue whatsoever.

434
00:28:16,380 --> 00:28:21,270
Everybody above a certain, a
certain amount of listeners, or

435
00:28:21,270 --> 00:28:24,720
downloads, which is haha,
everybody above that certain

436
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:32,040
number gets 99% of the revenue.
So it's not, it's not like any

437
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,010
of these things are
fundamentally different. What

438
00:28:35,010 --> 00:28:38,370
you're doing with value for
value is you're saying, okay,

439
00:28:38,370 --> 00:28:41,640
look, the people who are going
to who I'm going to ask to

440
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,820
support me, who are always going
to be the people who love my

441
00:28:44,850 --> 00:28:49,200
content the most those people,
they're going to pay me no

442
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:53,670
matter what. But if I don't put
artificial limits on them, and I

443
00:28:53,670 --> 00:28:57,480
give them the freedom to pay me
when they want and how much they

444
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:02,580
want. It respects them enough
yes to four I can I can enjoy

445
00:29:02,580 --> 00:29:07,200
the full range of their
generosity, whether this month

446
00:29:07,230 --> 00:29:11,340
there, they may be only able to
send me a couple of bucks next

447
00:29:11,340 --> 00:29:16,380
month, they may be send me a
couple 100 bucks because COVID

448
00:29:16,380 --> 00:29:19,500
happened in Nam Now a very
important voice in their life to

449
00:29:19,500 --> 00:29:22,830
give them calm or all these
sorts of things that that you

450
00:29:22,830 --> 00:29:26,610
become important to a listener.
So I mean, I just don't I think

451
00:29:26,910 --> 00:29:30,930
it might help to get out of this
mindset that putting that making

452
00:29:31,050 --> 00:29:35,100
your content subscription or
going with advertising

453
00:29:35,430 --> 00:29:40,170
fundamentally changes the the
Creator listener financial

454
00:29:40,170 --> 00:29:44,370
relationship, all you're doing
is you're not changing the way

455
00:29:44,370 --> 00:29:48,690
that that listener is going to
be willing to support you. All

456
00:29:48,690 --> 00:29:51,750
you're doing is putting various
layers of obfuscation over

457
00:29:51,750 --> 00:29:54,840
something that's fundamentally
ultimately the same. The same

458
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:55,500
process

459
00:29:55,530 --> 00:29:59,640
Adam Curry: if millions of
YouTubers can incessantly ask

460
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:04,170
people All, too smash that like
button hips that hit subscribe,

461
00:30:04,410 --> 00:30:08,610
and make sure you click on the
bell, you can easily say please

462
00:30:08,610 --> 00:30:14,130
hit the boost button. How hard
how I mean, how hard is it? It's

463
00:30:14,130 --> 00:30:17,430
and they say the same thing you
really support the podcast why?

464
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,330
Because you need to have 10,000
subscribers and then you can get

465
00:30:21,330 --> 00:30:26,400
into the AdSense program, etc,
etc etc. One other thing that I

466
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,720
should mention that kind of what
I learned what I learned from

467
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:35,250
this, this early experience is I
cannot determine what someone

468
00:30:35,250 --> 00:30:39,840
thinks is valuable or what
valuable means to them. Yeah,

469
00:30:39,870 --> 00:30:44,520
valuable when someone sends me
$5 I'm just as happy. Thank you

470
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:50,070
for the value as I am for $5,000
Because I know that that person

471
00:30:50,100 --> 00:30:54,690
put I just all I asked was what
do you think it's worth? And $5

472
00:30:54,690 --> 00:30:59,460
Maybe a lot to somebody, bribe
and 5000 Maybe nothing to

473
00:30:59,460 --> 00:31:00,420
somebody else.

474
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:06,030
Dave Jones: The Yeah, and the
other thing is set, SATs

475
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:12,120
Satoshis Bitcoin, the boosting
all that stuff that that that is

476
00:31:12,510 --> 00:31:17,190
a distinct thing that is not
value for value. But you could

477
00:31:17,220 --> 00:31:20,970
you could take with somebody
could create an app tomorrow.

478
00:31:21,570 --> 00:31:28,050
This says I'm going to create it
somebody can create an app that

479
00:31:28,110 --> 00:31:31,980
has subscription based
podcasting, podcasting, and you

480
00:31:31,980 --> 00:31:37,950
unlock the episodes with boosts.
That is not so so inept payment,

481
00:31:38,250 --> 00:31:41,760
boosting Satoshis Bitcoin
streaming, all that kind of

482
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:47,490
stuff. That is all a technology.
The for V is not a technology.

483
00:31:47,580 --> 00:31:52,080
It's it's a paradigm, though.
Thank you. And so like when you

484
00:31:52,770 --> 00:31:56,130
and that's a very fundamental
misunderstanding that a lot of

485
00:31:56,130 --> 00:31:59,310
people have when they when
they're talking about podcasting

486
00:31:59,310 --> 00:32:06,990
2.0. You know, agenda doesn't do
boosting for value for value.

487
00:32:07,020 --> 00:32:12,090
Nope. The is only pay pal. So
they're they're fundamentally

488
00:32:12,090 --> 00:32:16,680
separate things. The thing that
what what the whole reason we

489
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:21,840
did lightning value for value in
app payment, excuse me

490
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:27,690
lightning, Bitcoin, in app
payments, is because of this

491
00:32:27,690 --> 00:32:34,320
problem of PayPal, locking down,
censoring people throwing deep

492
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:39,870
platforming people threatening
to charge people if they donated

493
00:32:39,870 --> 00:32:44,610
to a show that later became, you
know, put on some sort of list.

494
00:32:44,850 --> 00:32:49,230
It was a real shocker. So we
needed a way to go directly from

495
00:32:49,230 --> 00:32:53,580
listener to creator without
going through any intermediaries

496
00:32:53,940 --> 00:32:57,930
that in that boosting in app
payments, that kind of thing.

497
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,550
That is a that is a non
middleman and anti de

498
00:33:02,550 --> 00:33:06,360
platforming technology is what
that is also, that is not the

499
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:07,080
for V

500
00:33:07,110 --> 00:33:10,530
Adam Curry: Correct. Also, it's
programmable money, and we could

501
00:33:10,530 --> 00:33:15,630
do all this cool stuff because
of its programmability we never

502
00:33:15,630 --> 00:33:20,610
had that we still don't have
that with with with PayPal, this

503
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,820
is just not there. So the
programmability is what really

504
00:33:23,820 --> 00:33:27,000
makes it fly and the
decentralized nature of it, etc.

505
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,060
But yes, in the in the
beginning, the genesis was

506
00:33:30,060 --> 00:33:34,560
definitely this is an index that
will not be platform you and you

507
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:40,440
can also if you are willing to
adopt the value for value

508
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:45,120
lifestyle and take a vow of
poverty for the foreseeable

509
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:51,600
future. Then it but at the same
time enjoy the pure the sheer

510
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:56,850
joy of seeing Satoshis dripping
is funny. I'll give an example.

511
00:33:57,030 --> 00:34:02,550
Tina, my wife and I we started a
podcast 78 episodes ago and

512
00:34:02,580 --> 00:34:07,860
after somewhere around episode
25 I think we said we were doing

513
00:34:07,860 --> 00:34:10,230
it once every two weeks it let's
do it every single let's let's

514
00:34:10,230 --> 00:34:16,680
do this for real. And we talk
about God, whine, husband and

515
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:21,720
wife staff. I think it's a
pretty good a pretty good

516
00:34:21,720 --> 00:34:26,040
product. We have according to OP
three I think about 11,000

517
00:34:26,700 --> 00:34:30,060
unique audience members on a
monthly basis. So this four

518
00:34:30,060 --> 00:34:37,470
shows a week. We take PayPal, we
take the V streaming SATs and

519
00:34:37,470 --> 00:34:41,970
booster grams and and we're not
in apple. Okay, we're not even

520
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,720
in apple which was on purpose
because I wanted to launch a

521
00:34:45,720 --> 00:34:50,940
pure V for V show. Although we
did add Pay Pal later. Because a

522
00:34:50,940 --> 00:34:54,630
lot of church folk are like
technology and say okay, I'm

523
00:34:54,630 --> 00:34:59,370
going to teach you don't worry.
Yeah, and we're doing $400 A

524
00:34:59,370 --> 00:35:04,470
show And we're only on show 78 I
think a lot of people who are

525
00:35:04,470 --> 00:35:08,250
doing podcasts would say, Where
do I sign for that? Now? Is it

526
00:35:08,250 --> 00:35:13,590
because it's Adam curry bull
crap? No. But we have cultivated

527
00:35:13,590 --> 00:35:19,020
our audience. We read their
messages, their notes. By the

528
00:35:19,020 --> 00:35:22,020
way, people send us wine people
send us other things, which to

529
00:35:22,020 --> 00:35:24,840
us is just as valuable. We'd
love that. It's another way of

530
00:35:24,900 --> 00:35:27,450
providing value back. It works.

531
00:35:29,130 --> 00:35:32,190
Dave Jones: It's not because
it's Adam curry IK. If it was, I

532
00:35:32,190 --> 00:35:35,100
would listen to the show. I
don't I'm not occurring the

533
00:35:35,100 --> 00:35:38,820
keeper listener. Like it's not a
it's not a cult. It's not a cult

534
00:35:38,820 --> 00:35:42,090
of personality thing. It's
that's a brand new show that

535
00:35:42,090 --> 00:35:47,730
started from from Greengrass.
Yeah, yeah, that this This is,

536
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,840
yeah, this is this is important.
It's just, I think it's easy to

537
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:56,550
to misunderstand these things
and begin to drift. I think. I

538
00:35:56,550 --> 00:36:00,870
think this is an important thing
to like, Reese recenter. You

539
00:36:00,870 --> 00:36:05,610
know, refocus things from time
to time. So okay, this, Nina

540
00:36:07,170 --> 00:36:09,510
likes it because it's easy to
drift off course,

541
00:36:09,630 --> 00:36:13,830
Adam Curry: it very easy and and
the more you ask, the more you

542
00:36:13,830 --> 00:36:18,030
shall receive. I mean, it's
really true. I mean, this is

543
00:36:18,060 --> 00:36:21,990
look at your own life.
Eventually you see the the

544
00:36:21,990 --> 00:36:27,480
GoFundMe for something so many
times you like, you'll start to

545
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,330
think like, I should probably
support that. And then you go

546
00:36:30,330 --> 00:36:33,240
and do it. And you and you go
look at the site like oh, look

547
00:36:33,240 --> 00:36:35,850
at all these beautiful messages.
People are saying, Look at all

548
00:36:35,850 --> 00:36:38,010
this, oh, this is cool. Look
that mean, now they also they

549
00:36:38,010 --> 00:36:41,730
also have goals and all that
stuff, which you could do. But

550
00:36:41,730 --> 00:36:45,690
then look at this project
itself, it started from zero for

551
00:36:45,690 --> 00:36:49,800
months, we paid it out of our
own pocket, you know, we set up

552
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,620
all those little servers that
was sucking out Apple's

553
00:36:52,620 --> 00:37:01,290
database. That was cool. We're
not scraping, though we acted

554
00:37:01,290 --> 00:37:03,630
like we were clients. And that's
why it took months because we

555
00:37:03,630 --> 00:37:09,330
didn't try and Jack it all out.
You know, we had people like

556
00:37:09,330 --> 00:37:12,870
Chris Chris, I seen the sweetest
trickler, who would send us you

557
00:37:12,870 --> 00:37:15,120
know, all kinds of
subscriptions, all kinds of

558
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,850
people were contributing to
that. That's your time, talent

559
00:37:17,850 --> 00:37:21,120
and treasure. And then over
time, as the hosting companies

560
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:25,740
saw what benefit we were to
their business, enter their

561
00:37:25,740 --> 00:37:29,580
lives, their livelihoods. So
they see value in what we do.

562
00:37:29,820 --> 00:37:33,030
They've become our biggest
supporters. But also app

563
00:37:33,030 --> 00:37:37,440
developers have become some of
our biggest supporters. So now

564
00:37:37,470 --> 00:37:44,430
you can say if we had just said,
meow, and nothing, or just had

565
00:37:44,430 --> 00:37:47,190
on the website, a donate button,
this project will

566
00:37:47,189 --> 00:37:50,309
Dave Jones: be over. Oh, yeah,
wouldn't have lasted three

567
00:37:50,309 --> 00:37:52,499
months. But we have a real

568
00:37:52,500 --> 00:37:55,860
Adam Curry: ask. And we put an
hour we have a couple $1,000 We

569
00:37:55,860 --> 00:38:00,000
put in ourselves and now it just
runs itself. Now, we also don't

570
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:05,010
need to live off of this. And we
don't. So no. So it's a

571
00:38:05,070 --> 00:38:09,000
particular value proposition.
But we're very clear about it.

572
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,730
And we thank people, we're very
grateful we thank people.

573
00:38:11,850 --> 00:38:12,270
Anyway,

574
00:38:12,750 --> 00:38:15,810
Dave Jones: that's your the
there was an article in the Wall

575
00:38:15,810 --> 00:38:18,660
Street Journal on LinkedIn this
morning about the Atlantic

576
00:38:18,660 --> 00:38:24,000
newspaper, magazine, the Latin
magazine, and how they became

577
00:38:24,030 --> 00:38:28,680
they went from basically sucking
wind in huge debt to now they're

578
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:34,020
profitable. And that I liked,
the whole article is very good.

579
00:38:34,290 --> 00:38:38,160
Lots of good stuff in there.
Now, of course, their

580
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,070
subscription based thing it's
not they're not value for value.

581
00:38:41,430 --> 00:38:45,510
But one of the bests, like I
said is ultimately this is not

582
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,210
these things aren't different.
You're just you just have to

583
00:38:48,210 --> 00:38:52,260
realize that when you're when
you go subscription based, and

584
00:38:52,260 --> 00:38:54,780
you don't go value for value.
When you go under subscriptions.

585
00:38:54,780 --> 00:38:58,500
You You're just leaving, you're
leaving money on the table. I

586
00:38:58,500 --> 00:39:02,520
think a lot. A lot. Yes, I think
a lot too. And you're in and

587
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:08,400
you're also not fully respecting
your listeners.

588
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:12,510
Adam Curry: Look at Leo with the
twit network with the club twit.

589
00:39:13,710 --> 00:39:18,900
He's so close yet he can't bring
himself to ask him to join Club

590
00:39:18,900 --> 00:39:23,340
twit. And you'll know it's $7
You know, and then it says that

591
00:39:23,340 --> 00:39:27,300
you can give more. No, no,
everybody's in club to it.

592
00:39:27,660 --> 00:39:32,340
Support he would he would be
okay. If he just he can't

593
00:39:32,340 --> 00:39:36,690
because he can't get over the
asking part. And yeah, there'll

594
00:39:36,690 --> 00:39:41,070
be people that email you or post
on on X or whatever and say

595
00:39:41,070 --> 00:39:45,030
you're begging for money. Okay,
yeah, that's fine. No, all

596
00:39:45,030 --> 00:39:45,390
right.

597
00:39:45,989 --> 00:39:49,949
Dave Jones: Well, this this the
one quote I liked the most in

598
00:39:49,949 --> 00:39:54,089
that Atlantic article said.
Their editor in chief said we

599
00:39:54,089 --> 00:39:57,839
believe as an almost ideological
and idealistic notion that we

600
00:39:57,839 --> 00:40:03,269
make something worth by Yes. But
it's it basically he said they

601
00:40:03,269 --> 00:40:07,649
went from just begging for
advertising revenue by

602
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,080
Adam Curry: by creating lots of
output because that's what you

603
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:11,760
have to do. And

604
00:40:11,759 --> 00:40:15,299
Dave Jones: then and then and
then being a slave to the CPM

605
00:40:15,989 --> 00:40:21,569
and to Google to Google's ad
search for me, basically, from

606
00:40:21,569 --> 00:40:24,659
that to a different mindset of
we think that our stuff is

607
00:40:24,659 --> 00:40:27,479
Adam Curry: valuable. Yes, there
it is. There it is.

608
00:40:29,070 --> 00:40:32,550
Dave Jones: You know, and
that's, that's, it has worked.

609
00:40:33,450 --> 00:40:35,970
Yeah, they're, they're
profitable again, and they're

610
00:40:35,970 --> 00:40:38,550
not they're not about on the you
know, the verge of bankruptcy.

611
00:40:39,660 --> 00:40:43,920
You know, from that thing, but I
think this is a you know, if I

612
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:50,220
can, if I can sort of swerve
swerve us into talking about all

613
00:40:50,220 --> 00:40:53,250
the stuff that song about pod
verse and downloads versus

614
00:40:53,250 --> 00:40:54,810
listens, and then sharing sure

615
00:40:54,839 --> 00:40:56,159
Adam Curry: the floor is yours.

616
00:40:58,500 --> 00:41:02,550
Dave Jones: If I don't die
first, don't die now. Okay.

617
00:41:03,390 --> 00:41:08,820
Let's see. Well, okay. I've got
a hadn't had an opening

618
00:41:08,820 --> 00:41:16,710
statement. But now I have a pre
a pre opening statement. Thanks

619
00:41:16,710 --> 00:41:22,080
to as you would say, there is no
there are no coincidences in the

620
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:27,600
kingdom. No, sir. Mo pod. I
don't know if you saw this. I

621
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:34,740
did not. This article from from
Bloomberg from Ashley Carmen. So

622
00:41:34,740 --> 00:41:38,100
it came out she wrote this
article yesterday saying that

623
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:45,000
she she had breast she's the one
that broke a while back. This in

624
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,570
game mobile ads, downloads
stuff.

625
00:41:48,810 --> 00:41:51,540
Adam Curry: Oh, the game stuff.
Yeah,

626
00:41:51,570 --> 00:41:54,240
Dave Jones: yeah. In Game mobile
ads that would trigger a

627
00:41:54,240 --> 00:42:01,050
download. Well, it's, she kind
of she broke a similar story

628
00:42:01,050 --> 00:42:10,170
yesterday. Then it's, it's about
some a similar type of scan for

629
00:42:10,170 --> 00:42:15,720
this company mo pod is they the
way this works is they'll give

630
00:42:15,720 --> 00:42:19,950
you if you sign up for the seat,
this kind of secret service that

631
00:42:19,950 --> 00:42:23,940
they don't actually advertise,
they go, they they they talk

632
00:42:23,970 --> 00:42:26,670
they contact you about it
evidently and say hey, we can do

633
00:42:26,670 --> 00:42:30,210
this for you. But it's not a
product that you can see on

634
00:42:30,210 --> 00:42:35,520
their website or any anywhere
publicly. They will ask for a

635
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:45,000
$5,000 minimum spend. They will
put, they will put ads into

636
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:52,620
games. to incent that basically
is we'll reward gamers with in

637
00:42:52,650 --> 00:42:57,660
game stuff like an in game
purchase, like an in game

638
00:42:57,660 --> 00:43:03,690
reward. If they click through
the ad to Apple podcasts and

639
00:43:03,690 --> 00:43:09,270
follow a podcast. They click
through it opens Apple podcasts

640
00:43:09,270 --> 00:43:12,990
to a particular podcast, they
click the Follow button. Then

641
00:43:12,990 --> 00:43:16,950
they go back to the game and
they get rewarded for the

642
00:43:16,950 --> 00:43:23,760
follow. So they're essentially
incentivizing gamers in in game

643
00:43:24,180 --> 00:43:29,070
to go follow a podcast even if
they have no intention, or no

644
00:43:29,070 --> 00:43:31,590
interest in this podcast
whatsoever. They're just doing

645
00:43:31,590 --> 00:43:35,610
it so they can get a new skin
for their character or whatever.

646
00:43:36,450 --> 00:43:42,360
So evidently, this is this is a
big deal, she said. Mo pods

647
00:43:42,390 --> 00:43:45,330
assistance can be seen all over
Apple's podcast charts over the

648
00:43:45,330 --> 00:43:49,110
past week and a half identified
at least 37 podcasts being

649
00:43:49,110 --> 00:43:52,620
advertised through in game
rewards provided by Mo pod,

650
00:43:52,860 --> 00:43:55,290
including shows from prominent
creators and networks like

651
00:43:55,290 --> 00:43:59,310
wondering Netflix iHeartMedia
limonada and Alex Cooper have

652
00:43:59,310 --> 00:44:03,990
call her daddy. In fact, the top
50 shows in the US. Yes of the

653
00:44:03,990 --> 00:44:07,560
top 50 shows in the US spotted
yesterday, I saw nine that had

654
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:15,780
been promoted in game. So 20
nearly 20% of the top 50 shows

655
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:19,950
are using this. This trick to
boost their download numbers.

656
00:44:19,950 --> 00:44:29,610
Yeah. Yeah, the these are scams.
Yes. It's just Chesterton. Okay,

657
00:44:29,610 --> 00:44:34,920
so is I'm reading heretics right
now. But GK Chesterton, it is

658
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,410
talking about the Irish author
George Moore, he used this

659
00:44:37,410 --> 00:44:41,130
phrase that Moore was in a
perpetual state of temporary

660
00:44:41,130 --> 00:44:48,720
honesty. This is the this is the
podcast metrics industry, a

661
00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:52,590
perpetual state of temporary
honesty. I mean, even so you can

662
00:44:52,590 --> 00:44:56,190
say even when a download is this
is again, this is my pre opening

663
00:44:56,190 --> 00:45:01,260
statement, even when a download
is legitimate. It comes from the

664
00:45:01,260 --> 00:45:06,330
app. A human being opened Apple
podcast, tap to the Follow

665
00:45:06,330 --> 00:45:13,320
button. They did all of that. It
still bogus downloads as

666
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:21,540
listens, in any form is a lie.
It's just fundamentally a lie.

667
00:45:23,010 --> 00:45:30,720
It you know, the in pretending
it's anything else is is

668
00:45:30,750 --> 00:45:37,620
dishonest. Yes, you add best
fog. Yeah. So now for my opening

669
00:45:37,620 --> 00:45:38,040
statement.

670
00:45:39,389 --> 00:45:40,559
Adam Curry: Would you like some
reverb?

671
00:45:43,770 --> 00:45:46,920
Dave Jones: Just kidding. Yeah,
yes. I want to take a drink.

672
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:50,010
Adam Curry: Could you give it
the name of that book again that

673
00:45:50,010 --> 00:45:51,870
you're reading? Oh, heretics

674
00:45:51,870 --> 00:45:56,640
Dave Jones: by GK Chesterton is
only good ahead and lay my cards

675
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:58,470
upon the cards on the table at
front and

676
00:45:58,469 --> 00:46:01,169
Adam Curry: you want to want to
explain the issue so people know

677
00:46:01,169 --> 00:46:07,109
what we're talking about. Okay.
Opening statement. You have five

678
00:46:07,109 --> 00:46:15,209
minutes. Oh, God. I'm doing my C
span Senate hearing. Reclaiming

679
00:46:15,509 --> 00:46:16,499
my time? Yep.

680
00:46:17,790 --> 00:46:20,400
Dave Jones: The the issue that
I'm talking about is a couple of

681
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:25,830
two or three weeks ago, I forgot
how, how many again now. But pod

682
00:46:25,860 --> 00:46:32,040
pod versus pod verse there
embedded webplayer came under

683
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:38,490
fire from some people on podcast
index dot social, for auto

684
00:46:39,420 --> 00:46:44,490
download for auto downloading on
page load. Essentially what what

685
00:46:44,910 --> 00:46:52,380
Mitch was doing is he had the
audio html5 tag attribute on the

686
00:46:52,380 --> 00:46:58,020
embedded player set to preload
equals metadata. So that he

687
00:46:58,020 --> 00:47:02,250
could get the length of the
episode.

688
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:04,380
Adam Curry: And the reason if I
can just interject my

689
00:47:04,380 --> 00:47:10,230
understanding the pod verse,
embeddable player is for clips.

690
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:16,290
And instead of chopping up a
clip of making a new file, you

691
00:47:16,290 --> 00:47:20,250
load that web player, it then
looks at the entire length knows

692
00:47:20,250 --> 00:47:23,490
the timecode goes right to it.
So when you hit play, it'll

693
00:47:23,490 --> 00:47:27,630
start playing the podcasts at
that point in the file. That's

694
00:47:27,630 --> 00:47:31,050
what I understood. So it's, it's
not just a listen to my whole

695
00:47:31,050 --> 00:47:35,040
podcast in this player. It's
specifically for clips. Yes.

696
00:47:35,070 --> 00:47:38,430
Dave Jones: Okay. Yes, that's
exactly right. So that that was

697
00:47:38,430 --> 00:47:43,590
the argument that Mitch said,
Mitch, Mitch made. So in Mitch,

698
00:47:43,620 --> 00:47:46,530
Mitch mitches arguments, he
needs an app, he needs accurate

699
00:47:46,530 --> 00:47:52,440
audio duration, you know, to for
that slider on the page, to

700
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:54,660
determine you know, where the
clips are going to land. And to

701
00:47:54,660 --> 00:48:02,760
make a nice user experience, our
RSS durations, and feeds the

702
00:48:02,790 --> 00:48:05,790
time, the times that are put
into the duration tag that

703
00:48:05,790 --> 00:48:10,020
attends duration tag, those are
those are completely out of I

704
00:48:10,020 --> 00:48:13,890
mean, they're horrible. They're
inaccurate. As soon as you put

705
00:48:13,890 --> 00:48:17,430
in a dynamically inserted ad,
they're, they're automatically

706
00:48:17,430 --> 00:48:22,980
wrong. Now, you, anybody who
parses RSS feeds, or has in the

707
00:48:22,980 --> 00:48:27,630
past knows that these durations
cannot be trusted, that at best,

708
00:48:27,660 --> 00:48:36,120
they're 20% reliable. So
therefore, pre loading the audio

709
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:40,560
on the page to get the time to
get the eight the length. If

710
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:44,490
that's what you want in your
product, you want that that

711
00:48:44,490 --> 00:48:49,530
length to be accurate on the
screen. That's the only way you

712
00:48:49,530 --> 00:48:54,210
can do it. And it's it's the
only way you can do it rely on h

713
00:48:54,420 --> 00:49:03,090
and HTML provides a mechanism to
do that. So there's simply no

714
00:49:03,090 --> 00:49:08,220
other way using modern tooling
to know the actual duration of a

715
00:49:08,220 --> 00:49:14,730
remote audio content without
retrieving the whole thing. That

716
00:49:14,730 --> 00:49:21,510
you that's just a fact. You have
a if you have a product if you

717
00:49:21,510 --> 00:49:25,140
have a product that really needs
that information to be correct,

718
00:49:25,170 --> 00:49:32,970
you don't have any other
options. So like the in a

719
00:49:32,970 --> 00:49:37,290
primary reason for that is
because of these dynamically

720
00:49:37,290 --> 00:49:45,240
inserted ads. So So and that's
also the primary argument

721
00:49:45,270 --> 00:49:49,140
against pre loading the audio is
because it messes up download

722
00:49:49,140 --> 00:49:55,200
stats. So you have the you have
the advertising arm of the of

723
00:49:55,200 --> 00:50:00,660
podcasting, creating a problem
through dynamic add in Session

724
00:50:01,890 --> 00:50:05,910
II messing up the duration, and
then bitching at people for

725
00:50:05,910 --> 00:50:08,910
using the only available
workaround for a problem they

726
00:50:08,910 --> 00:50:15,180
themselves created. So you screw
up the duration, then you gripe

727
00:50:15,180 --> 00:50:18,630
IT people for pre loading the
audio so they can get the

728
00:50:18,630 --> 00:50:24,210
accurate duration that you
screwed up. Here's an here's an

729
00:50:24,210 --> 00:50:28,500
idea, solve your own damn
problem while stopped demanding

730
00:50:28,530 --> 00:50:32,520
other people do it for you and
mess their product up so that

731
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:36,660
you can get stats that you made
it hard to get in the first

732
00:50:36,660 --> 00:50:37,080
place.

733
00:50:37,679 --> 00:50:43,169
Adam Curry: My objection to the
whole conversation was twofold.

734
00:50:44,879 --> 00:50:51,689
One is the notion that
advertising is keeping this

735
00:50:51,689 --> 00:50:58,259
whole industry afloat. No,
that's not true. hosting

736
00:50:58,259 --> 00:51:01,289
companies and podcast app
developers are keeping

737
00:51:01,289 --> 00:51:07,049
podcasting alive. That there is
some unwritten contract suddenly

738
00:51:07,079 --> 00:51:10,439
that I'm unaware of as the
inventor, co inventor of

739
00:51:10,439 --> 00:51:15,509
podcasting, I'm also unaware of
this. There is no contract,

740
00:51:15,569 --> 00:51:19,949
there is no unwritten contract
contracts or contracts. You

741
00:51:19,949 --> 00:51:25,049
know, go ask Ukraine, go ask, go
ask Russia. If a contract that

742
00:51:25,049 --> 00:51:28,319
is unwritten is a real contract
when we said oh, don't worry, we

743
00:51:28,319 --> 00:51:31,649
won't bring NATO in any closer
to you. And then we didn't put

744
00:51:31,649 --> 00:51:34,649
it in the contract. And that we
literally the United States says

745
00:51:34,799 --> 00:51:37,799
it wasn't we didn't write it
down the contract. So we can do

746
00:51:37,799 --> 00:51:43,169
whatever we want. It's not a
contract. And advertising came

747
00:51:43,169 --> 00:51:49,109
in later. And it may be keeping
your industry afloat, but it is

748
00:51:49,109 --> 00:51:51,089
not keeping podcasting afloat.

749
00:51:53,369 --> 00:51:56,309
Dave Jones: It's like banner is
so this, this reminds me of

750
00:51:56,309 --> 00:52:00,869
banner ads that started allowing
JavaScript to execute on the

751
00:52:00,869 --> 00:52:06,569
page. And then, you know,
shocker. Browsers start getting

752
00:52:06,569 --> 00:52:11,849
hijacked with with with, with
spyware. By doing, you know,

753
00:52:11,849 --> 00:52:15,419
paid shenanigans. And then the
advertising industry griping

754
00:52:15,419 --> 00:52:19,049
that people are using ad
blockers, or ads that are ads

755
00:52:19,049 --> 00:52:22,439
that when they don't load,
successfully break the page

756
00:52:22,439 --> 00:52:24,869
layout where you can't even read
the page and you have to keep

757
00:52:24,869 --> 00:52:30,089
reloading like this. This is you
know, fix your if you're the

758
00:52:30,089 --> 00:52:34,949
advertising industry, fix your
broken tech first, then come

759
00:52:34,949 --> 00:52:40,709
back and let's tall, you know,
anything else is just is just

760
00:52:40,709 --> 00:52:48,719
griping. Really, Mitch, in in
Mitch said. Mitch said he said

761
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:52,469
from the beginning he said I
have no problem with people

762
00:52:52,469 --> 00:52:55,319
tossing pod verse out of all
their stats charts across the

763
00:52:55,319 --> 00:53:00,029
board, or podcasters blocking
pod verse altogether. You know,

764
00:53:00,029 --> 00:53:03,689
he's like, if you if you don't
want to be in if you don't want

765
00:53:03,689 --> 00:53:06,239
us in your stats, that's fine.
Just take us out. I don't care.

766
00:53:06,599 --> 00:53:10,109
It's no sweat off my back. We're
an open source program software.

767
00:53:10,439 --> 00:53:15,359
We don't take. We don't have any
sort of, we're not obligated to

768
00:53:15,359 --> 00:53:19,229
anybody financially, I don't
care. At that point. The case is

769
00:53:19,229 --> 00:53:19,829
closed

770
00:53:19,830 --> 00:53:22,920
Adam Curry: as the legendary
John C. Dvorak once said, it's

771
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:23,160
no

772
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:30,600
Dave Jones: sweat off my balls.
Whoever wants to get his blog,

773
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:35,340
pod verse is problem. So creator
is respected. If the Creator

774
00:53:35,340 --> 00:53:39,090
doesn't want that shows to show
up, they can just block pod

775
00:53:39,090 --> 00:53:47,670
verse is everything is fine.
Stats. Stats can just be they

776
00:53:47,670 --> 00:53:51,450
can be gamed, as we've as we've
seen time after time after time,

777
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:52,890
you know, with

778
00:53:53,249 --> 00:53:55,139
Adam Curry: and where's the
outrage today? Where's the

779
00:53:55,139 --> 00:53:59,339
outrage about mo pod? I didn't
hear any outrage. Where's the

780
00:53:59,339 --> 00:54:05,489
outrage? About apple? The only
outrage we hear about Apple's

781
00:54:05,489 --> 00:54:09,539
iOS 17 is well they really
screwed up the industry. Yeah,

782
00:54:09,569 --> 00:54:13,409
because it was phony baloney.
And we all knew it. We knew it

783
00:54:13,409 --> 00:54:17,579
because of the dare I say
glitch. That happened several

784
00:54:17,579 --> 00:54:22,409
versions earlier that dropped
everybody's stats by pretty much

785
00:54:22,409 --> 00:54:25,529
the same as what is now done by
intent.

786
00:54:27,030 --> 00:54:30,090
Dave Jones: What what do podcast
apps get from these charts

787
00:54:30,090 --> 00:54:35,460
anyway? Nothing is always apple.
The charts are always the same

788
00:54:35,940 --> 00:54:40,170
Apple and Spotify with these
nice clean lines up at the top

789
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:43,470
and then everybody else
basically clumped into a rainbow

790
00:54:43,470 --> 00:54:46,920
at the bottom of the chart that
you came to discern. And

791
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:49,500
Adam Curry: I'm colorblind I
can't look at these charts and I

792
00:54:49,500 --> 00:54:51,510
have no idea what who's who
anymore.

793
00:54:52,290 --> 00:54:54,720
Dave Jones: It might be it might
as well just be labeled other

794
00:54:54,870 --> 00:54:58,380
you know, just for everybody
else we lived through. We lived

795
00:54:58,380 --> 00:55:01,620
through Apple Core media for you
years and years. Yeah, I mean,

796
00:55:01,830 --> 00:55:06,720
the iOS 17. Download pocalypse,
which nobody saw come in the you

797
00:55:06,720 --> 00:55:11,460
know, I heart and now mo pod in
game advertising scams that

798
00:55:11,460 --> 00:55:15,690
nobody understood until they
were broke until a news article

799
00:55:15,690 --> 00:55:20,310
was written about him. But trust
us as long as the 50 most used

800
00:55:20,310 --> 00:55:24,120
podcast app, web embed stops pre
loading, then everything's fine.

801
00:55:24,150 --> 00:55:25,740
You know, I mean, like it's this

802
00:55:27,420 --> 00:55:30,120
Adam Curry: standard? Well, no,
I think it's something else. And

803
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:35,370
I understand it. So and I'll
give them this. It's frustration

804
00:55:35,490 --> 00:55:40,170
that is vented at an easy
target. Because the frustration

805
00:55:40,170 --> 00:55:45,000
is the frustration of not having
a reliable listening statistic,

806
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:49,770
knowing when someone heard an
ad, and all these other things

807
00:55:49,770 --> 00:55:52,980
that affect downloads, it was
just an easy way to vent

808
00:55:52,980 --> 00:55:56,340
frustration. And that's how I
saw it. And that's why I stayed

809
00:55:56,340 --> 00:56:00,240
out. But when I heard about some
respect the Creator respect the

810
00:56:00,240 --> 00:56:03,180
Creator, well, why don't you
take out your silence, skipping

811
00:56:03,180 --> 00:56:06,930
and yours and your speed button?
That's not respecting my art.

812
00:56:07,439 --> 00:56:10,019
Dave Jones: But we all use ad
blockers in our web browser.

813
00:56:10,049 --> 00:56:10,439
Yeah.

814
00:56:10,469 --> 00:56:12,479
Adam Curry: But that's not
respecting anybody.

815
00:56:13,619 --> 00:56:18,029
Dave Jones: Like it really it
but we, but we, you know, we

816
00:56:18,029 --> 00:56:21,539
understand this is messing up
clean stats for creators on the

817
00:56:21,539 --> 00:56:25,979
web. But we do it anyway, we
justify it through all kinds of

818
00:56:25,979 --> 00:56:30,179
various arguments, some of which
are valid, but we use a

819
00:56:30,179 --> 00:56:33,119
different standard in
podcasting, you may expect apps

820
00:56:33,119 --> 00:56:37,139
to never mess up stats on behalf
of their user experience. Yeah,

821
00:56:37,169 --> 00:56:40,259
you know, even though we do and
in our browsers all day long,

822
00:56:40,709 --> 00:56:44,819
you know, we we say, well, this,
you know, this, this website is

823
00:56:44,819 --> 00:56:48,269
just it's just unreadable
without an ad blocker. Okay,

824
00:56:48,269 --> 00:56:52,799
well, maybe, maybe the same
thing applies to podcasting.

825
00:56:53,129 --> 00:56:57,779
You're, you don't get to this
spot. Podcasting does not get to

826
00:56:57,779 --> 00:57:01,889
be a special snowflake. Baker
has anything done

827
00:57:01,889 --> 00:57:04,439
Adam Curry: wrong, we basically
have an ad blocker, it's called

828
00:57:04,439 --> 00:57:08,549
the 32nd. Skip. We have that's
what everyone uses it for.

829
00:57:08,789 --> 00:57:11,999
Everybody knows is bogus. The
industry knows that everybody

830
00:57:11,999 --> 00:57:14,969
knows it. This is why in
advertising, we say half of my

831
00:57:14,969 --> 00:57:17,729
advertising budget is working. I
just don't know which half

832
00:57:18,209 --> 00:57:19,469
because you don't

833
00:57:20,550 --> 00:57:24,150
Dave Jones: tons of email.
Clients now block tracking

834
00:57:24,150 --> 00:57:26,910
pixels. Oh, yeah, for sure.
That's not respecting the

835
00:57:26,910 --> 00:57:32,880
creators, quote unquote. I mean,
we I just the the podcasting

836
00:57:33,150 --> 00:57:38,940
measurement side of things.
They're uncom, sometimes

837
00:57:38,940 --> 00:57:44,130
completely unreasonable. They
expect podcasting to be treated

838
00:57:44,370 --> 00:57:46,980
completely different than the
west of the way we treat the

839
00:57:46,980 --> 00:57:53,700
internet. Like Marco. Marco,
started ignoring prefixes a

840
00:57:53,700 --> 00:57:57,030
while back. And the reason he
did it, he reversed it. But the

841
00:57:57,030 --> 00:58:02,850
reason he started doing that, in
overcast, was because some of

842
00:58:02,850 --> 00:58:09,030
these prefixes were getting
added to Black Hole lists. Yeah.

843
00:58:09,030 --> 00:58:10,980
Adam Curry: And it was growing
up. Yeah. screwing up the whole.

844
00:58:11,940 --> 00:58:17,940
Okay. Yeah, that's all right.
Add. Okay. Stop talking about

845
00:58:17,940 --> 00:58:20,640
add, yeah, I speak dog. Yeah.

846
00:58:21,659 --> 00:58:24,179
Dave Jones: And so like
something something like

847
00:58:24,179 --> 00:58:27,779
charitable would get on an ad
blocker list. And now all of a

848
00:58:27,779 --> 00:58:29,759
sudden, overcast download fails.

849
00:58:30,180 --> 00:58:32,070
Adam Curry: Well, this is also
what screwed up the twit

850
00:58:32,070 --> 00:58:34,710
network. If you read what Lisa
Laporte wrote, which I can't,

851
00:58:34,710 --> 00:58:39,570
because she blocked me. Where
she says everybody has their own

852
00:58:39,570 --> 00:58:42,900
ad tech. And then you have, you
know, 15 different prefixes and

853
00:58:42,900 --> 00:58:45,420
trackers, and then all of a
sudden one of them breaks and

854
00:58:45,420 --> 00:58:46,410
you lose everything.

855
00:58:47,309 --> 00:58:51,539
Dave Jones: Yeah, exactly. And
that, it, it he reversed that

856
00:58:51,539 --> 00:58:55,289
decision and stopped doing that.
But that's not the important

857
00:58:55,289 --> 00:59:01,049
part. The principle is that he,
of what he did, is that he chose

858
00:59:01,049 --> 00:59:06,149
what his ie shows what was best
for his customer first, like so.

859
00:59:07,769 --> 00:59:13,169
advert, you know, ad supported
ad supported podcasters have a

860
00:59:13,169 --> 00:59:18,119
customer. And that customer is
the advertiser. That's right.

861
00:59:18,149 --> 00:59:22,019
That's who they sell to. That's
why advertisers are called

862
00:59:22,019 --> 00:59:26,579
buyers. That's right. The
advertiser is buying what the

863
00:59:26,579 --> 00:59:31,259
podcaster is selling. App
developers also have a customer,

864
00:59:31,919 --> 00:59:35,819
that customer is the listener.
That's who they sell their

865
00:59:35,819 --> 00:59:40,439
product to. Only a small
percentage of active podcasts

866
00:59:40,469 --> 00:59:45,479
are supported by advertising.
Advertising is not in any way, a

867
00:59:45,479 --> 00:59:48,899
necessary component of
podcasting. It's just the

868
00:59:48,899 --> 00:59:53,819
business plan of some
podcasters. Amen. And you cannot

869
00:59:53,879 --> 00:59:59,969
expect an app developer to break
their user experience for the

870
00:59:59,999 --> 01:00:06,719
their customer, so that a small
percentage of podcasters can not

871
01:00:06,719 --> 01:00:11,219
have any problems. I'm sorry, it
just doesn't work that way. It's

872
01:00:11,219 --> 01:00:17,219
not realistic. It's not fair.
And an add on, there's no

873
01:00:17,219 --> 01:00:20,939
argument that's going to
convince me otherwise. I mean,

874
01:00:21,689 --> 01:00:25,709
using downloads as a listening
statistics as as listener

875
01:00:25,709 --> 01:00:30,719
statistics, it's always been a
mess. It's always had a limited

876
01:00:30,719 --> 01:00:35,909
lifespan, it's going to fail.
Ultimately, it's already every

877
01:00:35,909 --> 01:00:38,249
time one of these big things
happens when you know, like his

878
01:00:38,249 --> 01:00:42,359
house, I was 17. Or in game at
any one time one of these big

879
01:00:42,359 --> 01:00:46,289
issues happens. The pawn the the
real download numbers keep going

880
01:00:46,289 --> 01:00:49,499
down and down and down. And we
look back and we say, Oh, we

881
01:00:49,499 --> 01:00:51,959
never we never knew that that
was happening.

882
01:00:53,190 --> 01:00:55,080
Adam Curry: What was gambling
going on?

883
01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:58,770
Dave Jones: Yeah. You know, I
agree with with people like

884
01:00:58,770 --> 01:01:02,250
James and John Spurlock that not
preloading gives cleaner stats,

885
01:01:02,250 --> 01:01:09,720
I agree. In, in the, in the
absence of a compelling reason

886
01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:16,230
not to sit in preload to none,
is a courteous thing to do I get

887
01:01:16,230 --> 01:01:20,340
I agree with that. You're,
you're you're just gonna kind of

888
01:01:20,430 --> 01:01:26,310
play nice, so to speak. And I
don't want to ignore that. But

889
01:01:27,450 --> 01:01:31,470
Mitch has said, he has a
compelling reason what to him is

890
01:01:31,470 --> 01:01:35,520
a compelling reason. And that's,
that's enough. It's the case,

891
01:01:35,550 --> 01:01:39,420
case closed. People on both
shots. So people on both sides

892
01:01:39,420 --> 01:01:43,410
of that equation, the the
advertising side, in the

893
01:01:43,410 --> 01:01:46,740
listener side, people on both
sides should do what's best for

894
01:01:46,740 --> 01:01:51,690
their own customers. And in
advertisers, in my opinion,

895
01:01:51,690 --> 01:01:56,640
advertisers need to advocate for
a better standard. In podcast

896
01:01:56,640 --> 01:02:00,930
app developers should code the
best user experience that go if

897
01:02:00,930 --> 01:02:05,100
you're an advertiser, and you're
dependent on download numbers,

898
01:02:05,340 --> 01:02:09,330
and you're all up in arms
because it because they're not

899
01:02:09,330 --> 01:02:13,320
accurate. You're barking up the
wrong tree. You need to go

900
01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:14,940
advocate for a better standard.

901
01:02:15,060 --> 01:02:20,430
Adam Curry: Well, there's one on
the horizon. And I like it. I

902
01:02:20,430 --> 01:02:22,800
like it a lot for a whole bunch
of reasons, because I think it

903
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:26,160
can help everybody. And this is
where I take it to the high

904
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:31,650
note. Get us out of the pit.
That's right. I'm crawling out

905
01:02:31,650 --> 01:02:34,890
of the hole with you Dave. You
grabbed my hand. I'm gonna eat

906
01:02:34,890 --> 01:02:37,050
some chocolate. All right, you
eat some chocolate by the way.

907
01:02:37,050 --> 01:02:40,200
There's a severe cocoa shortage.
Oh,

908
01:02:40,290 --> 01:02:42,900
Dave Jones: as yesterday ration
this. Oh, you better hurry is a

909
01:02:42,900 --> 01:02:46,020
little bit of a big piece. I
mean, it has has easier.

910
01:02:47,969 --> 01:02:51,599
Adam Curry: activity streams, I
think is a dynamite idea. I

911
01:02:51,599 --> 01:02:56,489
really love the idea. I've
listened to the podcast. I've

912
01:02:56,519 --> 01:03:01,289
researched it. Please stop
telling me it's a W three

913
01:03:01,289 --> 01:03:05,669
standard, therefore it's the
best bullcrap. It's. I'm so

914
01:03:05,669 --> 01:03:08,549
tired of that argument. The
donate three. See, I'm already

915
01:03:08,999 --> 01:03:12,029
I'm already in SAMSA Thea,
Bharti and I like the idea

916
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:17,190
Dave Jones: that what is that?
The most important thing about

917
01:03:17,190 --> 01:03:19,830
selling is knowing when to stop
selling. Yes.

918
01:03:19,830 --> 01:03:22,830
Adam Curry: Don't Don't sell the
app I've already bought in to

919
01:03:22,830 --> 01:03:27,570
stop, don't sell beyond that.
What is it selling beyond the go

920
01:03:27,570 --> 01:03:34,020
beyond the sale, whatever it is.
The activity pub, I'm really

921
01:03:34,020 --> 01:03:39,060
convinced mainly because of its
adoption, its maturity, its

922
01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:43,320
adoption, I'd say there's
millions of people who have a

923
01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:47,880
mastodon account, ergo, millions
of people who have an activity

924
01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:52,290
pub account that can be used
right now today, to do the very

925
01:03:52,290 --> 01:03:56,880
first thing, the simplest thing
in the world, which some apps

926
01:03:56,880 --> 01:04:00,930
have already pretty much
implemented, which is comments.

927
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:05,130
And I'm not going to call it
cross app comments for a reason,

928
01:04:05,130 --> 01:04:09,150
just comments. And it has
everything built into it that we

929
01:04:09,150 --> 01:04:15,930
want, including them moderation.
You know, the full maturity of

930
01:04:16,290 --> 01:04:21,300
what Mastodon has shown us how
activity pub can work, follow,

931
01:04:21,870 --> 01:04:25,710
you know, like all these
different things, it's all in

932
01:04:25,710 --> 01:04:32,850
there. We have a unique
opportunity to blow everybody

933
01:04:32,850 --> 01:04:37,410
out of the water as a group by
making it comments that show up

934
01:04:37,410 --> 01:04:43,410
on every single app. And by the
way, I understand activity

935
01:04:43,410 --> 01:04:46,590
streams in activity pub, we
already have some activity

936
01:04:46,590 --> 01:04:53,700
streams they are follow, like
boost. Comment. We already have

937
01:04:53,700 --> 01:04:56,820
the bridge with the podcast
index. So we have all the

938
01:04:56,820 --> 01:05:01,320
elements set we have the route
post concept which we which

939
01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:03,750
we've been doing for two years
on this show, and I do them

940
01:05:03,750 --> 01:05:07,800
every single show I always put
in a route comment. And you can

941
01:05:07,800 --> 01:05:12,870
see how that works on podcast
index you can see go to comments

942
01:05:12,870 --> 01:05:15,330
click on it, you can drop down
you see the comments, but we

943
01:05:15,330 --> 01:05:19,620
have never done to my knowledge
Well, except for an embedded

944
01:05:19,620 --> 01:05:25,350
page like an iframe on curio
caster is the EU would you like

945
01:05:25,350 --> 01:05:30,330
to comment on this episode?
Login with your activity pub

946
01:05:30,330 --> 01:05:35,250
account Mastodon, the fill in
the blank. Mastodon won't be the

947
01:05:35,250 --> 01:05:39,930
simplest for people I've heard
of mastodon? Or would you like

948
01:05:39,930 --> 01:05:45,120
to create one? Once we have
that, then we can immediately

949
01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:50,250
out of the gate, as a group show
something that goes way beyond

950
01:05:50,250 --> 01:05:53,250
the people who are using Apple
and Spotify, they'll feel left

951
01:05:53,250 --> 01:05:57,330
out? Oh, I can't comment on all
I can comment I see this guy's

952
01:05:57,330 --> 01:06:02,850
at the end, you'll get FOMO is
part of it. Yes. Now, as a part

953
01:06:02,850 --> 01:06:06,060
of this, we can start to build.
So before we get all jacked

954
01:06:06,060 --> 01:06:10,080
about all the activity, stream
verbs and everything, if we can

955
01:06:10,080 --> 01:06:13,440
just get this one thing going.
And I don't think there's a

956
01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:17,550
single concern that any
developer can have about dealing

957
01:06:17,550 --> 01:06:21,990
with comments. Because now it's
completely up to the Creator.

958
01:06:22,470 --> 01:06:27,360
Respect the Creator. As to how
that's managed, moderated. You

959
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:29,760
could remove the whole post,
there's a whole bunch of things

960
01:06:29,760 --> 01:06:36,780
you can do. Thank you. Once we
get that going, then you can add

961
01:06:36,810 --> 01:06:43,710
all kinds of things such as
bliss and time. And when people

962
01:06:43,710 --> 01:06:46,440
are comfortable, and then of
course, you need to be

963
01:06:46,440 --> 01:06:49,920
transparent and say, Would you
like to add your listen time,

964
01:06:49,920 --> 01:06:52,470
here are the benefits to you,
here's the benefit to your

965
01:06:52,470 --> 01:06:55,980
podcasts or that you're
listening to. Now all of a

966
01:06:55,980 --> 01:07:01,410
sudden, we can give some real
data, some real statistics, to,

967
01:07:03,870 --> 01:07:08,220
to advertisers to podcasters,
whatever you want, because it

968
01:07:08,220 --> 01:07:11,370
will be it'll be transparent, it
will be managed by the

969
01:07:11,370 --> 01:07:16,290
podcaster. And the listener. I
think true fans already has this

970
01:07:16,290 --> 01:07:20,100
built in where you can, you can
determine what you want what you

971
01:07:20,100 --> 01:07:23,760
want to turn on or off. Not Not
everybody will do it. But I

972
01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:28,650
think a lot of people will if
you ask appropriately. And you

973
01:07:28,650 --> 01:07:33,540
will initially have a blended
statistic with your downloads or

974
01:07:33,540 --> 01:07:38,040
whatever you want. But over
time, I think you will see that

975
01:07:38,040 --> 01:07:42,210
that is a and this is where the
industry can step in. The

976
01:07:42,210 --> 01:07:45,540
industry can step in and say
yeah, this is a good idea. Even

977
01:07:45,540 --> 01:07:49,950
Apple could do it. Even Apple,
they won't, but they could. And

978
01:07:49,950 --> 01:07:54,660
now all of a sudden we are 20
apps all doing this. And now

979
01:07:54,660 --> 01:07:58,110
we're forced to be reckoned with
because not just one app, we're

980
01:07:58,110 --> 01:08:02,070
just you know, some download
stats, but we can get a pretty

981
01:08:02,070 --> 01:08:07,560
good idea with a blend of
downloads, etc. So if people

982
01:08:07,590 --> 01:08:13,140
actually heard your pitch, your
ad, your whatever, I wouldn't

983
01:08:13,140 --> 01:08:16,140
mind knowing exactly where
people listen, I have those

984
01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:20,730
statistics. I know a subset, a
subset of people listens to

985
01:08:20,730 --> 01:08:23,880
shows and I can see oh, this is
where they drop off. This is

986
01:08:23,880 --> 01:08:26,820
where they came back. I mean,
it's it's enough data for me.

987
01:08:26,850 --> 01:08:31,650
It's not I'm not looking for
CPMs. But we can do a lot of

988
01:08:31,650 --> 01:08:36,570
stuff. And this is the future.
Now the biggest problem we have

989
01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:42,480
is noster because there's so
many cycles being wasted on

990
01:08:42,480 --> 01:08:50,250
noster. To in essence create the
same thing. All I can think of

991
01:08:50,250 --> 01:08:59,160
is to ask you, is there a way
that we can bridge noster with

992
01:08:59,160 --> 01:09:03,210
verbs into activity pub, so that
people who are really setting

993
01:09:03,210 --> 01:09:06,780
I'm looking at you, Oscar,
people who are really bought

994
01:09:06,780 --> 01:09:12,660
into Nasir for for whatever
reason, which is fine. Can we

995
01:09:12,660 --> 01:09:18,270
bridge the activity verbs the
verbs into activity pub, so that

996
01:09:18,270 --> 01:09:23,580
we can welcome them? welcome
that development. Because

997
01:09:23,580 --> 01:09:27,420
there's a lot to be said for for
having your Nasir identity.

998
01:09:27,420 --> 01:09:30,270
There's a lot to be said for it.
But when it comes to the

999
01:09:30,270 --> 01:09:35,760
maturity and the adoption of
activity pub, you're a million

1000
01:09:35,760 --> 01:09:41,730
miles away. Worse, you're 10
years away. So if we can figure

1001
01:09:41,730 --> 01:09:44,250
that out, I think it'd be great
because I'd love to see the

1002
01:09:44,250 --> 01:09:49,980
cycles of people like Oscar
coming into doing this and

1003
01:09:49,980 --> 01:09:52,710
participating in it because
without them it's just going to

1004
01:09:52,710 --> 01:09:53,340
be harder.

1005
01:09:55,500 --> 01:10:00,720
Dave Jones: So you have been
handsome Hold on discussions

1006
01:10:00,720 --> 01:10:04,980
with people about about various
things as we always do, and I'm

1007
01:10:04,980 --> 01:10:11,130
not that bothered about the
like, do you like Jupiter

1008
01:10:11,130 --> 01:10:13,230
broadcasting and fountain
they're doing this live

1009
01:10:13,230 --> 01:10:19,800
experiment where it's like live
commenting on their show,

1010
01:10:20,040 --> 01:10:24,330
basically an info chat room type
of deal, like our, like IRC type

1011
01:10:24,330 --> 01:10:27,930
of deal, but in but in like a
web page, but then it's, but

1012
01:10:27,930 --> 01:10:32,520
it's through noster. And so I
say through nostre, it's using

1013
01:10:32,520 --> 01:10:36,390
the nostril protocol, but
currently, fountains noster

1014
01:10:36,390 --> 01:10:41,490
experimental relay is not
public. So it's it's really just

1015
01:10:42,030 --> 01:10:45,690
very much a beta alpha type
experiment that they're doing

1016
01:10:46,410 --> 01:10:53,070
now. Now Oscar said that he's
going to open this up and make

1017
01:10:53,070 --> 01:10:59,520
the fountain relay public. As
soon as he gets it stable to

1018
01:10:59,520 --> 01:11:03,120
where he feels like it's, it's
ready to be to be pounded on a

1019
01:11:03,120 --> 01:11:12,360
little bit. And this, this
doesn't bother me that much that

1020
01:11:12,960 --> 01:11:16,860
on the nostril side of things,
I'm not a nostril fan, but I'm

1021
01:11:16,860 --> 01:11:21,150
not going to be pugnacious about
it either. I mean, there's there

1022
01:11:21,150 --> 01:11:29,070
is there's I'm looking for an A
for an escape hatch out of the

1023
01:11:29,070 --> 01:11:31,620
pugnacity of Dobbs,

1024
01:11:31,620 --> 01:11:36,240
Adam Curry: Hairston firestop
pugnacious definition ready and

1025
01:11:36,240 --> 01:11:40,890
able to resort to force or
violence. pugnacious. Okay, got

1026
01:11:40,890 --> 01:11:40,980
it.

1027
01:11:44,910 --> 01:11:47,550
Dave Jones: I think there's in
general, too much of that

1028
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:53,730
between noster and everybody
else on the planet. So I'm

1029
01:11:53,730 --> 01:11:54,540
looking for

1030
01:11:57,000 --> 01:11:58,890
Adam Curry: this is the problem
who's pugnacious,

1031
01:11:59,910 --> 01:12:02,520
Dave Jones: all of us, we're all
we're all combative about

1032
01:12:02,520 --> 01:12:09,000
things. So I think if we is I'm
not that bothered by what, by

1033
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:14,340
their experiment? Because I know
that we can, we can just bridge

1034
01:12:14,340 --> 01:12:18,810
it. Right, which is my question.
Yes. And so that's, that was my

1035
01:12:18,810 --> 01:12:22,860
long answer to your question. To
which I think we can just Britt,

1036
01:12:23,070 --> 01:12:27,090
for any of these. Here's my
mindset on things like this is

1037
01:12:27,090 --> 01:12:31,170
like, any, there's always going
to be these little silos of

1038
01:12:31,170 --> 01:12:35,730
things that happen in I mean,
let's let's be real noster

1039
01:12:36,510 --> 01:12:40,860
there's millions of activity pub
users, there's maybe 10,000,

1040
01:12:40,860 --> 01:12:45,180
nostril users. Maybe. I mean,
that's, that's might be a

1041
01:12:45,180 --> 01:12:50,580
stretch already. I don't know.
But it's very, very small, based

1042
01:12:50,580 --> 01:12:54,780
on the numbers that I've seen.
So there's always I consider

1043
01:12:54,780 --> 01:13:01,320
nostre to be sort of like this
proprietary thing over here.

1044
01:13:02,220 --> 01:13:06,300
But, but they are public. I
mean, they have public relays.

1045
01:13:06,660 --> 01:13:11,430
So we can bridge it. So if, if
if Oscar wants to do his

1046
01:13:11,430 --> 01:13:16,830
experiment over there with
noster? You know, I don't mind

1047
01:13:17,460 --> 01:13:21,180
writing some software that will
pull that stuff out back into

1048
01:13:21,180 --> 01:13:24,390
activity pub, it's already been
done to the Moscow bridge.

1049
01:13:24,390 --> 01:13:30,000
Exactly. We know it's doable, in
in a, and I'm just thinking that

1050
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:32,730
there's always going to be these
little things like that, for

1051
01:13:32,730 --> 01:13:41,490
instance. If you've been trying
to think of an example, okay,

1052
01:13:41,700 --> 01:13:48,060
for instance, if Buzzsprout
wanted to have their have like

1053
01:13:48,060 --> 01:13:55,590
their own in, in house, live
chat, or, or rss.com wanted to

1054
01:13:55,590 --> 01:13:59,820
have their own in house comments
or whatever, that people could

1055
01:13:59,820 --> 01:14:08,220
post back on to a podcasters web
page. That might we could build

1056
01:14:08,220 --> 01:14:11,130
a bridge for that. I'm not going
to go to them and say, Well, you

1057
01:14:11,130 --> 01:14:17,730
know, you have to do it this
way. You have to do X protocol.

1058
01:14:18,510 --> 01:14:22,710
Because like, they know I agree
to be in their game plan.

1059
01:14:22,740 --> 01:14:25,410
Adam Curry: That's what that's
where I started I said, can we

1060
01:14:25,410 --> 01:14:28,140
bridge it because I just want to
take the high road you took it

1061
01:14:28,140 --> 01:14:29,220
to pugnacious?

1062
01:14:30,840 --> 01:14:35,940
Dave Jones: No. You did use the
P word.

1063
01:14:35,939 --> 01:14:38,879
Adam Curry: Did you pulled out
the P word man. Dang.

1064
01:14:39,630 --> 01:14:44,760
Dave Jones: Let me like I just
in general, I would like to calm

1065
01:14:44,760 --> 01:14:50,220
down the you know, calm down all
of that stuff and try to be

1066
01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:55,620
because I know we can fix it
with code. Monkey like you said

1067
01:14:55,620 --> 01:14:57,240
we can we can fix it with code.

1068
01:14:57,240 --> 01:14:57,900
Adam Curry: Yeah, yeah, I

1069
01:14:57,900 --> 01:15:01,500
Dave Jones: like that. I like
that. Rather than rather than I

1070
01:15:01,500 --> 01:15:03,090
think what made me soften

1071
01:15:04,140 --> 01:15:07,500
Adam Curry: on this is your good
nature and your loving heart.

1072
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:16,290
Dave Jones: It is you knew he
knew sweetie like it's like a

1073
01:15:16,500 --> 01:15:20,430
like an acre and they'll look on
the sidewalk in in you know in

1074
01:15:20,430 --> 01:15:26,850
the spring you can just be step
on any just squishes the what

1075
01:15:26,850 --> 01:15:30,330
has softened me on this is I
think I'll see and all the the

1076
01:15:30,330 --> 01:15:35,010
Mitch pod verse stuff,
animosity. You know I'm like

1077
01:15:35,010 --> 01:15:40,800
well, rather than griping and
saying, you know, you're gonna

1078
01:15:40,800 --> 01:15:44,370
do it this way I'm gonna block
you. Like, rather than doing

1079
01:15:44,460 --> 01:15:49,890
that we can say, you know, we'll
just build some software and fix

1080
01:15:49,890 --> 01:15:50,100
it.

1081
01:15:50,490 --> 01:15:50,940
Adam Curry: Right.

1082
01:15:52,350 --> 01:15:55,080
Dave Jones: You know, we'll work
around, we'll work around other

1083
01:15:55,080 --> 01:16:00,840
people's proclivities of what
they want to do and will bring

1084
01:16:00,840 --> 01:16:06,480
that content out of their stuff
back into back into the broader

1085
01:16:06,480 --> 01:16:09,000
thing that we're participating
in or that we believe in.

1086
01:16:10,380 --> 01:16:14,820
Adam Curry: I'm all in I love
it. Yeah, shall we play song?

1087
01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:16,830
Dave Jones: Oh man, that'd be
great.

1088
01:16:17,790 --> 01:16:22,860
Adam Curry: This is what I chose
today is a song that I heard on

1089
01:16:22,860 --> 01:16:27,570
this week in Bitcoin I figured
what better way to show the

1090
01:16:27,570 --> 01:16:30,810
power of music and podcasting
and to play it here as well two

1091
01:16:30,810 --> 01:16:33,270
weeks in Nashville This is
moneymaker boy

1092
01:16:58,260 --> 01:17:03,690
Unknown: gotta go rounds I won't
let this go No I am not your

1093
01:17:03,690 --> 01:17:04,140
money

1094
01:17:09,420 --> 01:17:14,820
you really get a message that
good drugs that's true. Well let

1095
01:17:14,820 --> 01:17:17,220
this go no I'm not your money

1096
01:17:23,670 --> 01:17:24,930
you don't know me

1097
01:17:53,010 --> 01:18:00,450
so tell me how you like yourself
that this goal no I am not your

1098
01:18:00,450 --> 01:18:00,870
money

1099
01:18:05,970 --> 01:18:10,170
so sick and tired of this CNC
what you want but I won't ask me

1100
01:18:10,290 --> 01:18:13,920
I want this goal. No, I'm not
your money

1101
01:18:59,310 --> 01:19:06,630
look this go. I won't I won't. I
won't ever let this go.

1102
01:20:04,319 --> 01:20:06,899
Adam Curry: That's how you start
a Friday. Wow,

1103
01:20:06,929 --> 01:20:08,849
Dave Jones: that's a that's a
good song. Isn't that

1104
01:20:08,850 --> 01:20:13,110
Adam Curry: though speaking of
pugnacious, pneus yeah, there's

1105
01:20:13,110 --> 01:20:18,660
a lot of pugnacious pneus in the
music value for value world

1106
01:20:18,690 --> 01:20:23,880
against wave lake. And I would
ask everybody to think about

1107
01:20:23,880 --> 01:20:29,250
what you're doing there. Because
the best way to show that music

1108
01:20:29,250 --> 01:20:36,300
in podcasts and how it really
works well is to not boycott

1109
01:20:36,330 --> 01:20:38,460
artists that happened to be on
wave lake.

1110
01:20:39,630 --> 01:20:42,570
Dave Jones: So I didn't know
that was high. This this is a

1111
01:20:42,570 --> 01:20:44,340
lot of pugnacious,

1112
01:20:44,340 --> 01:20:48,030
Adam Curry: pneus. And you're
hurting the artists first of

1113
01:20:48,030 --> 01:20:52,440
all. And second of all, the more
you do that, the more isolation

1114
01:20:52,440 --> 01:20:57,630
there is, where as I love
showing everybody including the

1115
01:20:57,630 --> 01:21:00,090
artists on wave Lake and they
know how to speak to artists

1116
01:21:00,090 --> 01:21:02,820
that they have a vibe going, you
can't stop it. It's like tick

1117
01:21:02,820 --> 01:21:05,880
tock. You know, they wouldn't
have to ban it in the United

1118
01:21:05,880 --> 01:21:08,370
States. If they could compete
against it. Sometimes just you

1119
01:21:08,370 --> 01:21:11,280
can't do that. Just the if
something catches a vibe and

1120
01:21:11,280 --> 01:21:18,180
people use it. Don't fight in,
show them love. Show them love

1121
01:21:18,180 --> 01:21:19,950
and they will come running to
you.

1122
01:21:21,540 --> 01:21:25,020
Dave Jones: With we need to we
need to get rid of the

1123
01:21:25,020 --> 01:21:27,450
pugnacious pugnacious
proclivities.

1124
01:21:29,520 --> 01:21:31,980
Adam Curry: liberties oh man to
PS

1125
01:21:33,899 --> 01:21:37,859
Dave Jones: this Yeah, no, don't
don't don't boycott people.

1126
01:21:37,889 --> 01:21:38,699
That's this

1127
01:21:38,730 --> 01:21:41,160
Adam Curry: now, but there's
also just a vibe of verbiage

1128
01:21:41,160 --> 01:21:43,380
guys, no good, but you know,
they approaching it from a

1129
01:21:43,380 --> 01:21:46,920
different perspective. I mean,
look at what happened with with

1130
01:21:46,920 --> 01:21:50,760
Libsyn. Because we all bits
lips, and now they they're now

1131
01:21:50,760 --> 01:21:53,340
that they hardly want to do
anything, because you guys are

1132
01:21:53,340 --> 01:21:54,840
mean your bullies?

1133
01:21:56,130 --> 01:21:58,500
Dave Jones: Seriously, which,
which I thought was interesting,

1134
01:21:58,500 --> 01:22:01,380
because what we've been told is
that the reason that we they

1135
01:22:01,380 --> 01:22:03,540
weren't doing it was because
there was no support in the

1136
01:22:03,540 --> 01:22:07,170
apps. Yeah. But now it's now
that they're supporting the abs.

1137
01:22:07,170 --> 01:22:09,180
It's like, well, it's just
really because you're mean.

1138
01:22:09,210 --> 01:22:14,250
Yeah. So I've never been mean,
we've met with them. Yeah,

1139
01:22:14,250 --> 01:22:17,310
plenty. I mean, we've met we've
met with them twice. And there's

1140
01:22:17,310 --> 01:22:21,390
Adam Curry: a lot there's a lot
going on in telegram channels

1141
01:22:21,390 --> 01:22:24,540
and all kinds of places where
people talk smack and then

1142
01:22:24,570 --> 01:22:28,020
Dave Jones: this is that is that
is something I think maybe

1143
01:22:28,020 --> 01:22:30,540
people don't know, there's a lot
of these. There's a lot of

1144
01:22:30,540 --> 01:22:37,200
these. There's a lot of secret
Slack channels in the podcasting

1145
01:22:37,200 --> 01:22:40,890
world where certain people hang
out, you know, like sort of the

1146
01:22:40,890 --> 01:22:45,120
gatekeepers of podcast and the
podcast industrial complex, hang

1147
01:22:45,120 --> 01:22:48,570
out and like talk about stuff
and talk about other people. But

1148
01:22:48,570 --> 01:22:51,630
that's that's the thing. I'm
sure there's lots of things

1149
01:22:51,630 --> 01:22:54,000
being said in these channels
that we're not aware of, because

1150
01:22:55,110 --> 01:22:58,230
even if invited I refuse to be a
part of that kind of stuff. I

1151
01:22:58,230 --> 01:22:58,620
agree.

1152
01:22:59,250 --> 01:23:01,350
Adam Curry: Yeah. Should we
thank a few people Dave so I can

1153
01:23:01,350 --> 01:23:06,060
get you out kind of on time. Oh,
yes. So we are value for value.

1154
01:23:06,090 --> 01:23:08,280
You've heard all about it. I
don't need to explain it. But

1155
01:23:08,280 --> 01:23:11,790
here's our Ask and our Thank you
segment in the same way we

1156
01:23:11,790 --> 01:23:15,990
package it in one it's amazing.
It's a twofer. It is a twofer.

1157
01:23:16,680 --> 01:23:20,190
Thank you very much anonymous
for sending 3333 for the jam in

1158
01:23:20,190 --> 01:23:23,130
tune you just heard that always
helps. The artists will love

1159
01:23:23,130 --> 01:23:28,020
that. Sir Brian have London
11,948 sets that is a nice

1160
01:23:28,020 --> 01:23:31,410
contribution and of course it is
an Israeli freedom boost. He

1161
01:23:31,410 --> 01:23:34,890
says my entire extended family
has no idea what the potholder

1162
01:23:34,890 --> 01:23:39,420
was doing in that songs video.
Do you know about this pot

1163
01:23:39,420 --> 01:23:40,080
holder thing?

1164
01:23:41,010 --> 01:23:44,820
Dave Jones: Yeah, this is
something that that Brian said

1165
01:23:44,820 --> 01:23:49,560
video that Brian sent with a guy
had a he had a I did not know

1166
01:23:49,560 --> 01:23:55,200
this was called an oven glove.
Yes. I just in the south we just

1167
01:23:55,200 --> 01:23:57,840
call everything a pot holder.
It's just anything that keeps

1168
01:23:57,840 --> 01:23:59,640
your hand from getting burned. I
think

1169
01:23:59,669 --> 01:24:01,919
Adam Curry: oven mitts in the UK
have an MIT

1170
01:24:02,249 --> 01:24:05,729
Dave Jones: oven mitt. Okay.
Yeah. Yeah. Cotton

1171
01:24:05,730 --> 01:24:08,670
Adam Curry: Gin row a duck's
2222 says You're welcome both.

1172
01:24:08,670 --> 01:24:13,410
Thank you. Blueberry with the
boob boost 808 Dave really been

1173
01:24:13,410 --> 01:24:16,830
enjoying REO sets. They've been
tearing it up out there. The

1174
01:24:16,830 --> 01:24:20,280
lighting designer we've been
working with toured Elvis Ozzie

1175
01:24:20,280 --> 01:24:24,180
during Diary of a madman Rick
James too many to name. Tune in

1176
01:24:24,180 --> 01:24:27,270
next Monday because I've got an
interview recorded with him. We

1177
01:24:27,270 --> 01:24:30,120
also be interviewing Ryan Oh,
caught lead singer for the 12

1178
01:24:30,120 --> 01:24:34,020
rods. April Fool's night is Pax.
Yes, we will be willing gonna

1179
01:24:34,020 --> 01:24:37,200
have blueberry on the show next
week, I

1180
01:24:37,199 --> 01:24:40,589
Dave Jones: believe. That's
right. I love REO Speedwagon.

1181
01:24:40,589 --> 01:24:41,309
They're a great band.

1182
01:24:41,970 --> 01:24:44,640
Adam Curry: Then they're still
out there. Apparently. I Can't

1183
01:24:44,640 --> 01:24:51,630
Fight This Feeling anymore.
Right 1701 from Brian X minger,

1184
01:24:51,840 --> 01:24:54,270
he says finally able to listen
live. Well. Thank you very much.

1185
01:24:54,270 --> 01:24:57,270
He's listening in a podcast guru
by the way. I just wanted to say

1186
01:24:57,270 --> 01:25:03,150
we had we were talking about
episode words.fm Man, I've been

1187
01:25:03,150 --> 01:25:04,410
using that I love

1188
01:25:04,410 --> 01:25:07,650
Dave Jones: it. It even us it's
my tweet now it

1189
01:25:07,650 --> 01:25:12,030
Adam Curry: even works for live.
Oh yeah, if you look at

1190
01:25:12,060 --> 01:25:14,580
Dave Jones: the AI No, that's
what a tweet. Oh yeah, you know

1191
01:25:14,580 --> 01:25:17,250
I used to have all the different
links in there for our live show

1192
01:25:17,250 --> 01:25:18,600
and I now just have that

1193
01:25:18,630 --> 01:25:22,380
Adam Curry: episodes.fm And it
has the podcast apps do live

1194
01:25:22,380 --> 01:25:26,880
it's fantastic. Yeah, I love it.
It's got an outstanding product

1195
01:25:26,880 --> 01:25:29,790
that was assumed to be bought by
someone no doubt.

1196
01:25:31,439 --> 01:25:32,849
Dave Jones: It will be bought in

1197
01:25:34,770 --> 01:25:38,160
Adam Curry: 3333 from Chad F
from boosted in from pod verse

1198
01:25:38,160 --> 01:25:42,930
Dred Scott 1234 So what is Dave
saying that size does matter.

1199
01:25:43,080 --> 01:25:51,270
Okay. 3330 That was from pod
verse EB chat F since 3333 from

1200
01:25:51,270 --> 01:25:55,170
curio caster, he says. We all
know Korean the keeper is

1201
01:25:55,170 --> 01:26:00,600
popular because of Tina, aka the
keeper aka the talent. Why yes.

1202
01:26:01,110 --> 01:26:01,830
Why? Yes. You're

1203
01:26:01,830 --> 01:26:02,910
Dave Jones: just the manager.

1204
01:26:03,360 --> 01:26:06,660
Adam Curry: I'm just managers.
Producer producer. Yeah. 10,000

1205
01:26:06,660 --> 01:26:10,320
SATs from San Seth Sam Sethi
coming in from true fans. He's

1206
01:26:10,320 --> 01:26:13,800
in Los Angeles right now by with
I thought was very funny. Both

1207
01:26:13,800 --> 01:26:18,630
he and and James are appalled by
the state of the Los Angeles

1208
01:26:18,630 --> 01:26:22,530
airport and downtown Los
Angeles. Yeah, why do you think

1209
01:26:22,530 --> 01:26:26,190
everyone moved to Texas? They
ruined the state.

1210
01:26:26,969 --> 01:26:31,949
Dave Jones: I got I got a an
Uber a few months ago from some

1211
01:26:31,979 --> 01:26:37,199
from this lady. And I was
talking about something about I

1212
01:26:37,199 --> 01:26:41,879
just gotten back from Dallas, I
think in is that what it was? I

1213
01:26:41,879 --> 01:26:45,599
can't remember anyway. But I
brought up gas prices and she

1214
01:26:45,599 --> 01:26:48,899
was like, she was like, Man, you
don't know anything. She's like

1215
01:26:48,899 --> 01:26:52,469
I just got she said I'm moved
here from A to Birmingham from

1216
01:26:52,469 --> 01:26:55,889
Los Angeles during COVID. Oh,
yeah. And she was like gas was

1217
01:26:55,889 --> 01:26:58,139
like $7 a gallon. Yeah.

1218
01:26:58,170 --> 01:27:01,080
Adam Curry: There's a lot a lot
wrong with Los Angeles. Yeah.

1219
01:27:01,080 --> 01:27:01,200
And

1220
01:27:01,200 --> 01:27:02,580
Dave Jones: I asked her I'm like
what, you know, why did you

1221
01:27:02,580 --> 01:27:04,410
leave? She was like, I couldn't
live there anymore. It's just

1222
01:27:04,560 --> 01:27:06,450
she was like it was just a
hellhole. Yeah, too

1223
01:27:06,450 --> 01:27:10,140
Adam Curry: expensive and a
hellhole. So Sam says next week,

1224
01:27:10,140 --> 01:27:13,980
my booths will appear in your
social interact tag. All right.

1225
01:27:14,100 --> 01:27:17,730
Looking forward. Nice. Okay. And
another 10,000 from Sam from

1226
01:27:17,730 --> 01:27:21,330
true fans. One click Apple
Google Pay to SATs wallet is now

1227
01:27:21,330 --> 01:27:25,320
live. One click Apple Pay.
Apple. Yeah, he's

1228
01:27:25,320 --> 01:27:28,170
Dave Jones: an app in app
purchases. Some stats. Oh,

1229
01:27:28,170 --> 01:27:30,750
Adam Curry: excellent. App.
That's a great

1230
01:27:30,899 --> 01:27:33,539
Dave Jones: way we got Sam
coming on on let me see

1231
01:27:33,570 --> 01:27:36,120
Adam Curry: the 19th I think the
19th. Yes.

1232
01:27:37,200 --> 01:27:39,060
Dave Jones: He'll give gives the
breakdown, right.

1233
01:27:40,680 --> 01:27:43,710
Adam Curry: For seven striper
boost from hard hat boost and

1234
01:27:43,710 --> 01:27:46,560
Happy Easter. Yes, Good Friday.
Happy Easter to y'all. Indeed.

1235
01:27:46,800 --> 01:27:50,310
dribs kappa Jesus went to happy
Jesus 1234 He does it twice. And

1236
01:27:50,310 --> 01:27:53,490
he says boosting the heart out
sorry. 12 year old brain had to

1237
01:27:53,490 --> 01:28:01,560
do it. That's right. We see them
we had cold McCormick, the row

1238
01:28:01,560 --> 01:28:04,020
of ducks. 20 to 22 just watched
the presentation from the

1239
01:28:04,020 --> 01:28:07,380
Patreon CEO at South by
Southwest. He literally

1240
01:28:07,380 --> 01:28:11,100
describes podcasting 2.0 as the
future of how the platform will

1241
01:28:11,100 --> 01:28:15,510
function for creators, but
centralized we are early but so

1242
01:28:15,510 --> 01:28:18,960
from the future. Yes, indeed. We
are. And then too late booths

1243
01:28:18,960 --> 01:28:23,940
coming in or one late booths
coming in. Whoa. Eric, our dash

1244
01:28:23,940 --> 01:28:33,270
podcast. 80,000 SATs well that
deserves 20 is Blaze only Impala

1245
01:28:33,300 --> 01:28:36,900
boosting for a possible hot
database dashboard segment soon.

1246
01:28:36,900 --> 01:28:39,480
Yes, I had it on the list. We
ran out of time, unfortunately.

1247
01:28:39,720 --> 01:28:43,050
Any initial feedback on the over
the top podcast index, duplicate

1248
01:28:43,050 --> 01:28:46,170
dashboard. initial feedback,
love it.

1249
01:28:47,250 --> 01:28:50,190
Dave Jones: Yeah, I've got it
pulled up on my browser and we

1250
01:28:50,190 --> 01:28:52,080
just didn't get there to talk
about it. Yeah, I don't want to

1251
01:28:52,080 --> 01:28:53,100
give it short shrift.

1252
01:28:53,130 --> 01:28:55,980
Adam Curry: No, no, no, no short
shrift. We're not none of that.

1253
01:28:56,010 --> 01:28:57,180
All right, Dave Europe?

1254
01:28:58,260 --> 01:29:03,210
Dave Jones: No, he pitched him
in one reading. Paper we got a

1255
01:29:03,780 --> 01:29:09,990
$15 from Sebastian PITINO Lang
and no note. But thank you.

1256
01:29:10,020 --> 01:29:16,620
Thanks. And we also got right
into the wire up Beats Music

1257
01:29:16,620 --> 01:29:20,190
podcast and it's $3.33 through
PayPal and he says just to

1258
01:29:20,190 --> 01:29:22,440
Thanks for doing the boardroom
with great conversations about

1259
01:29:22,440 --> 01:29:26,070
the 2.0 verse. Enjoy these
cookbooks that you can turn back

1260
01:29:26,070 --> 01:29:28,710
into Bitcoin at your leisure go
podcasting. Thank you

1261
01:29:28,710 --> 01:29:31,440
Adam Curry: very much. So
crayon. Love it, brother. Yes.

1262
01:29:32,430 --> 01:29:35,190
Dave Jones: Let's see what we
got. I guess it was a great

1263
01:29:35,190 --> 01:29:37,950
Adam Curry: name by the way.
Salty crayons a great DJ name. I

1264
01:29:37,950 --> 01:29:40,830
love that. That is everybody's
LT cray on here Friday

1265
01:29:40,830 --> 01:29:44,370
afternoon. My daddy wasn't
Beatle is better

1266
01:29:44,370 --> 01:29:48,180
Dave Jones: than James Andrews.
Born DJ. I'm

1267
01:29:48,179 --> 01:29:50,129
Adam Curry: gonna go look for
some air checks of James

1268
01:29:50,129 --> 01:29:50,819
Andrews.

1269
01:29:53,130 --> 01:29:58,800
Dave Jones: Andrew grommet ducks
2222 from app. The app is

1270
01:29:59,040 --> 01:30:02,070
wherever Wherever I think this
must be a test boost. I

1271
01:30:02,070 --> 01:30:05,010
Adam Curry: think you have to
just say wherever. And I heard

1272
01:30:05,010 --> 01:30:07,380
Andrew is going to be on the pod
news weekly review soon. So

1273
01:30:07,380 --> 01:30:09,600
that'd be great. I'm looking
forward to hear and we should

1274
01:30:09,600 --> 01:30:11,490
have him on our show too. And

1275
01:30:11,490 --> 01:30:12,900
Dave Jones: Andrew says, Go
podcasting.

1276
01:30:12,929 --> 01:30:14,519
Adam Curry: That's right brother
go podcasting.

1277
01:30:15,570 --> 01:30:18,600
Dave Jones: Get gene been since
the boost, he says, interesting

1278
01:30:18,600 --> 01:30:22,170
take on a classic song that's
just for last week's song left

1279
01:30:22,170 --> 01:30:24,930
to know how they handled the
rights side of things. That's

1280
01:30:24,930 --> 01:30:26,520
first and on the dock of the
bay, I think.

1281
01:30:26,940 --> 01:30:30,870
Adam Curry: Yes. Well, I don't
know long answer, but the answer

1282
01:30:30,870 --> 01:30:37,800
is, it's a borderline case. It
only works if you believe that.

1283
01:30:38,280 --> 01:30:41,010
Now let's take the streaming out
of it. If we're streaming, we're

1284
01:30:41,010 --> 01:30:44,190
technically broadcasting we're
tech the game violation. If I

1285
01:30:44,190 --> 01:30:48,120
put a song into a podcast, I
need to have permission from the

1286
01:30:48,150 --> 01:30:52,470
owner of the master. And that
master owner needs to have paid

1287
01:30:52,740 --> 01:30:58,710
for a number of copies being
made of that song. Which is

1288
01:30:58,710 --> 01:31:02,760
impossible to know impossible to
know. And, and I've had many

1289
01:31:02,760 --> 01:31:07,950
conversations with people about
this. It's a very gray area. And

1290
01:31:07,980 --> 01:31:12,660
honestly, I'm not going to do it
again. I really no, no, it's too

1291
01:31:12,870 --> 01:31:14,100
It's too risky for me.

1292
01:31:15,780 --> 01:31:17,550
Dave Jones: Yeah, well, yeah.
And I

1293
01:31:17,550 --> 01:31:19,410
Adam Curry: don't want a waiver
they could get in trouble they

1294
01:31:19,410 --> 01:31:21,600
can get in trouble for allowing
this anyway. But

1295
01:31:21,630 --> 01:31:24,660
Dave Jones: that's up to now. I
will want to I do want to say a

1296
01:31:24,660 --> 01:31:28,740
waiver Lake is being good about
they. There's people trying to

1297
01:31:28,740 --> 01:31:31,800
post stuff as usual, as you
would imagine people are trying

1298
01:31:31,800 --> 01:31:34,260
to post copyrighted stuff to
their to their site, and I see

1299
01:31:34,260 --> 01:31:37,410
them taking that stuff down. Oh,
yeah. Good. So they are policing

1300
01:31:37,410 --> 01:31:43,200
their system. Good. Which is
good to see. Jean been sent a

1301
01:31:43,470 --> 01:31:47,880
notice 1313 37 Cast Matic he
says if Apple ignores a tag in

1302
01:31:47,880 --> 01:31:50,040
their namespace, and I don't
think the podcast index should

1303
01:31:50,040 --> 01:31:53,160
honor it, either. That's blog
referring to the blog. And

1304
01:31:53,160 --> 01:31:55,020
Adam Curry: when I've already
done that, right, we're not

1305
01:31:55,020 --> 01:31:55,680
ignoring it.

1306
01:31:56,399 --> 01:31:59,039
Dave Jones: Oh, no, we're not
ignoring it yet. I'm just trying

1307
01:31:59,039 --> 01:32:04,619
to I'm waiting. So James reached
out to Apple to get a comment on

1308
01:32:04,619 --> 01:32:07,739
whether or not they what their
official stances. So we've been

1309
01:32:07,739 --> 01:32:11,129
waiting to hear back on that
good. Jean been another note

1310
01:32:11,129 --> 01:32:13,859
2223 casts medic, he says I
don't think podcast apps need to

1311
01:32:13,859 --> 01:32:17,429
have activity pub instances.
They can have users that have

1312
01:32:17,429 --> 01:32:20,369
users authenticate to external
instances just like any Mastodon

1313
01:32:20,369 --> 01:32:23,339
client does. For users without
an activity public count

1314
01:32:23,339 --> 01:32:26,759
already, the podcast app can
guide users through creating one

1315
01:32:26,759 --> 01:32:27,449
I agree.

1316
01:32:27,480 --> 01:32:30,900
Adam Curry: I agree. That is
absolutely the way to go. And

1317
01:32:30,900 --> 01:32:31,230
it's

1318
01:32:31,499 --> 01:32:34,139
Dave Jones: it's easier on the
app because they don't have to

1319
01:32:34,139 --> 01:32:38,999
do the operations have to deal
with it. Up in 1984 4000 SAS

1320
01:32:38,999 --> 01:32:42,839
through fountain he says if
Apple is a monopoly with a 60%

1321
01:32:42,839 --> 01:32:46,169
market share, and we should be
breaking up the two party

1322
01:32:46,169 --> 01:32:49,649
monopoly system with Democrats
or Republicans. I'm a Linux and

1323
01:32:49,649 --> 01:32:53,069
Android user. I hate the entire
apple ecosystem. And I side with

1324
01:32:53,069 --> 01:32:55,199
apple on this one. The
government did not have a case

1325
01:32:55,199 --> 01:32:57,839
against Microsoft in that case
still had more merit than this

1326
01:32:57,839 --> 01:33:04,859
apple case. Good point. Yep.
Anonymous. Seto Richards. 1111.

1327
01:33:05,459 --> 01:33:10,589
Enjoy this episode, gentlemen.
Well, thank you. Thank you. Ron.

1328
01:33:10,589 --> 01:33:15,899
It's bigger. Oh, we just talked
about Ryan 85 SATs through. CT

1329
01:33:15,899 --> 01:33:18,479
cast. ematic. He says great
recording. I guess

1330
01:33:18,479 --> 01:33:21,299
Adam Curry: that's Thank you. I
hit record. It worked. Great

1331
01:33:21,299 --> 01:33:22,019
recording. Yep.

1332
01:33:23,310 --> 01:33:26,790
Dave Jones: Oh, Dave Jackson.
pocket for Hall of Fame podcast.

1333
01:33:27,600 --> 01:33:31,410
2222. Your cast thematically
says showing booster grants to

1334
01:33:31,410 --> 01:33:38,280
Tim. Tim Putra. At Podcast
Movement. I loved your in James.

1335
01:33:38,700 --> 01:33:42,990
Presentation. Tell puto you're
in James presentation. Okay. I

1336
01:33:43,020 --> 01:33:44,010
loved your video, I

1337
01:33:44,010 --> 01:33:49,920
Adam Curry: guess. How do you
spell puto? PRT? UPUTTRETT? Are

1338
01:33:49,920 --> 01:33:51,240
a who is Tim? Pune?

1339
01:33:52,380 --> 01:33:53,700
Dave Jones: Pune? pooter.

1340
01:33:53,730 --> 01:33:59,430
Adam Curry: He is. He's a
podcaster. Yes. Okay. That's

1341
01:33:59,430 --> 01:33:59,730
right.

1342
01:34:00,540 --> 01:34:02,100
Dave Jones: Well, thank you,
Dave Jackson, appreciate your

1343
01:34:02,100 --> 01:34:07,440
brother. Come out. We're gonna
make sure that we have I gotta

1344
01:34:07,440 --> 01:34:11,250
make sure I didn't. I don't have
stragglers. I didn't have a

1345
01:34:11,250 --> 01:34:15,360
straggler. Okay. Morris podcast.
2100 says, Oops, I started a

1346
01:34:15,360 --> 01:34:19,230
post delimited trend. I repent.
To quote Michael Jordan, stop

1347
01:34:19,230 --> 01:34:26,400
it. Get some help. Thanks.
Thanks, Gary. Yeah, and get

1348
01:34:26,400 --> 01:34:29,340
calm. WooCommerce. So yeah, we
got the delimiter where I lost

1349
01:34:29,340 --> 01:34:33,240
him. Oh, here's your blogger
20 1000s through fountain. Wow.

1350
01:34:33,420 --> 01:34:38,130
He says, howdy Christians, Dave
and Adam. Although, although I'm

1351
01:34:38,130 --> 01:34:41,610
personally agnostic, I want to
extend my best wishes to you for

1352
01:34:41,610 --> 01:34:44,940
a joyful Easter, a holiday
commemorating the resurrection

1353
01:34:44,970 --> 01:34:48,960
of Jesus Christ. It's akin to
how podcasting two point O has

1354
01:34:48,960 --> 01:34:52,200
rejuvenated the world of
podcasting. Additionally, I

1355
01:34:52,200 --> 01:34:56,880
invite your listeners to explore
my cartoons at WWW dot CSB dot

1356
01:34:56,880 --> 01:34:59,160
lol yo CSB.

1357
01:34:59,250 --> 01:35:02,100
Adam Curry: Thank you see you
The yeah it's Jesus Super Bowl.

1358
01:35:02,610 --> 01:35:04,050
It's what it is

1359
01:35:04,080 --> 01:35:07,980
Dave Jones: Jesus Super Bowl. I
like you know, Jesus, you know

1360
01:35:08,010 --> 01:35:09,450
kind of like podcasting to point
out

1361
01:35:10,649 --> 01:35:13,979
Adam Curry: exactly the same
thing. Yes, thank you.

1362
01:35:14,219 --> 01:35:16,109
Dave Jones: Oh wait, we got some
some one please.

1363
01:35:18,510 --> 01:35:19,980
Adam Curry: What are you doing?
You're walking away from the

1364
01:35:19,980 --> 01:35:20,250
line.

1365
01:35:20,310 --> 01:35:25,560
Dave Jones: I got the I got JD
wadded up my monthly list before

1366
01:35:25,560 --> 01:35:28,890
I was where I was ready for even
ready, monthlies. We got Jordan

1367
01:35:28,890 --> 01:35:33,900
Dunnville $10 Dred Scott to
Bruce Wayne to podcasting. $15

1368
01:35:33,900 --> 01:35:39,420
Michael Kimber. $5.33 and Pedro
gonna call this $5 Now I'm gonna

1369
01:35:40,830 --> 01:35:42,120
actually do it for real. All

1370
01:35:42,120 --> 01:35:43,920
Adam Curry: right, thank you all
very much for supporting

1371
01:35:43,920 --> 01:35:46,980
podcasting 2.0 the podcast but
of course, you really supporting

1372
01:35:46,980 --> 01:35:49,770
the entire project, which
includes everything that's

1373
01:35:49,770 --> 01:35:53,220
running, everything is running
and liquidity. I had some

1374
01:35:53,220 --> 01:35:55,920
problems opening up channels to
a couple people I'm not quite

1375
01:35:55,920 --> 01:36:00,090
sure what happened but still
here hit me up Adam at podcast

1376
01:36:00,090 --> 01:36:03,270
at Adam at podcast index dot
social and I will open up a

1377
01:36:03,270 --> 01:36:06,660
channel to you. I think Chad F
might still need one. So hit me

1378
01:36:06,660 --> 01:36:08,640
up again, brother and I'll open
that for you. We use that all

1379
01:36:08,640 --> 01:36:12,330
for liquidity, everything that
goes into the node and thank you

1380
01:36:12,360 --> 01:36:16,410
go to podcasts index.org at the
bottom to read donate buttons,

1381
01:36:16,650 --> 01:36:19,140
one for your Fiat fund coupons
through Pay Pal, the other one

1382
01:36:19,140 --> 01:36:22,170
for tally coin for your on
chain? I don't know we should

1383
01:36:22,170 --> 01:36:25,710
probably remove that. And button
is once again, no one has used

1384
01:36:25,710 --> 01:36:29,340
it. No one has used it. And we
really appreciate you for

1385
01:36:29,340 --> 01:36:31,380
supporting podcasting. 2.0

1386
01:36:32,310 --> 01:36:35,400
Dave Jones: Did you see the
hedgehog? protocol layer two

1387
01:36:35,400 --> 01:36:37,020
protocol? I heard

1388
01:36:37,020 --> 01:36:40,230
Adam Curry: about it. The first
thing I thought was, oh, is that

1389
01:36:40,230 --> 01:36:41,400
something we could use?

1390
01:36:43,470 --> 01:36:45,690
Dave Jones: It it actually looks
pretty rad. Because

1391
01:36:45,690 --> 01:36:48,570
Adam Curry: you can you can send
a payment. And the other person

1392
01:36:48,600 --> 01:36:51,090
doesn't have to they accept it
later. Is that what I

1393
01:36:51,090 --> 01:36:51,660
understood?

1394
01:36:52,470 --> 01:36:55,560
Dave Jones: Yeah, it's, it's you
it's using layer, it's using

1395
01:36:55,560 --> 01:37:03,000
layer one. It's basically it's
using a thing inside of normal

1396
01:37:03,000 --> 01:37:08,130
layer one bitcoin scripting, to
do a sort of loose channel,

1397
01:37:08,700 --> 01:37:13,890
where you can send somebody
where everything where you can,

1398
01:37:14,040 --> 01:37:16,230
you can basically just send a
payment. So it's like lightning,

1399
01:37:16,230 --> 01:37:20,460
send a payment, but it's not
broadcast until the channel

1400
01:37:20,460 --> 01:37:24,990
quote unquote, closes. But then
there's this. But there's a an

1401
01:37:25,020 --> 01:37:30,150
in script function where you
could revert back where you can

1402
01:37:30,150 --> 01:37:35,250
revert the payment with a time
lock. If it's not accepted, if

1403
01:37:35,250 --> 01:37:39,330
it's not accepted. So you don't
have to actually have an online

1404
01:37:39,330 --> 01:37:40,440
channel. So

1405
01:37:40,440 --> 01:37:42,840
Adam Curry: Oh, cool. So it's
kind of is it invoice list? So

1406
01:37:42,840 --> 01:37:44,910
you don't have to have an
invoice first?

1407
01:37:45,360 --> 01:37:47,040
Dave Jones: I believe so. I
think you just need to name a

1408
01:37:47,040 --> 01:37:51,120
bitcoin address. Yeah. Pretty
nice. And I love it. Me and

1409
01:37:51,120 --> 01:37:53,430
Alex. Yeah, when we announced
we're talking about as I mean,

1410
01:37:53,430 --> 01:37:57,990
you could actually do this. It's
it's protocol. It's sort of like

1411
01:37:57,990 --> 01:38:03,660
Wire Protocol Independent. So
you don't have to actually, it

1412
01:38:03,660 --> 01:38:04,410
could go over any

1413
01:38:04,410 --> 01:38:06,510
Adam Curry: protocol don't even
actually don't even need to be

1414
01:38:06,510 --> 01:38:07,110
connected,

1415
01:38:07,139 --> 01:38:11,549
Dave Jones: I guess. Yeah. You
could do it over email. Or, or

1416
01:38:11,549 --> 01:38:14,519
like you could do it over you
could have you could have you

1417
01:38:14,519 --> 01:38:19,619
could have like a lightning
channel over XMPP Wow. Over

1418
01:38:19,619 --> 01:38:23,729
hive. Wow. No, no. Yes, yes.

1419
01:38:24,029 --> 01:38:26,879
Adam Curry: I'm gonna send you
some stats through hive. There

1420
01:38:26,879 --> 01:38:27,239
you go.

1421
01:38:27,270 --> 01:38:30,330
Dave Jones: There's this there's
this. There's like a supporting

1422
01:38:30,900 --> 01:38:38,580
wire protocol. That's called
like what is it? I forgot the

1423
01:38:38,580 --> 01:38:43,920
name burrito. It's some other
animal things like this. This is

1424
01:38:43,920 --> 01:38:48,750
anthropomorphic menagerie of
terms within your language today

1425
01:38:48,750 --> 01:38:51,870
Adam Curry: your language today
is off the chain man. I'm loving

1426
01:38:51,870 --> 01:38:53,370
all these I'm learning words.

1427
01:38:55,680 --> 01:38:58,920
Dave Jones: Words I guess it's
too much I can't keep track of

1428
01:38:58,920 --> 01:39:01,500
all this. All these
terminologies like they try to

1429
01:39:01,500 --> 01:39:07,260
get hedghog like whatever, man,
but anyway, it's really cool. I

1430
01:39:07,260 --> 01:39:09,480
Adam Curry: would like to play
with all right. All right, well,

1431
01:39:10,560 --> 01:39:13,260
man, I wish I could pull that I
so yes, I know you'd like to

1432
01:39:13,260 --> 01:39:15,810
play with. Alright everybody.
That's it for the board meeting

1433
01:39:15,810 --> 01:39:18,990
episode number 173. Brother
Dave, thank you so much, man.

1434
01:39:19,650 --> 01:39:21,690
Dave Jones: Yeah, you too, man.
I'm trying to mute button

1435
01:39:21,690 --> 01:39:23,520
myself. I'm coughing my head
off. I

1436
01:39:23,520 --> 01:39:25,590
Adam Curry: hear you. I hear you
will feel better. Have a great

1437
01:39:25,590 --> 01:39:28,920
weekend. And everybody out there
in the boardroom. Thank you for

1438
01:39:28,920 --> 01:39:31,710
joining us once again. Thank you
for participating we back next

1439
01:39:31,710 --> 01:39:36,030
Friday with another board
meeting of podcasting 2.0.

1440
01:39:52,439 --> 01:39:56,999
Unknown: You have been listening
to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcast

1441
01:39:56,999 --> 01:40:04,139
index.org For more information
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