Episode 158: Thingamajigger

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Adam Curry: podcasting 2.0 for
December 8 2023, episode 158

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sangoma, Jager. Oh hello,
everybody. Welcome to the

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official board meeting for
podcasting 2.0 This is where it

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all goes down. In fact, we are
the only boardroom that doesn't

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do interview predictions because
we are in the future. I'm Adam

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curry here in the heart of the
Texas Hill Country and Alabama.

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The man who fights the scrapers
every day like a junkyard dog.

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Say hello to my friend on the
other end, the one and only Mr.

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Dave Jones.

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Dave Jones: Like Junkyard Dog
junkyard, new Junkyard Dog, man,

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Adam Curry: Junkyard Dog,
junkyard dog.

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Dave Jones: This just, you
caught me off guard because I

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just realized I didn't tweet it
into what you said. You said rip

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it. I know. But I had this right
after I fell out of my chair. So

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I'm not

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Adam Curry: discombobulated.
Dave has eaten so many beef

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milkshakes, and he's breaking
chairs. Now. It's crazy.

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Dave Jones: Yeah, I mean, like
it leaned over to get the shake,

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and it was just like, pop and
all sudden, I was like, fighting

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this and to not land in the
floor.

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Adam Curry: I wish I wish I'd
been recording it because that's

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exactly what a sight and it was
like, oh, conclusion. conclave

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was like this big, clanking,
clanking crash. And it was very

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Dave Jones: interesting. Lots of
stuff happened before the show.

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You sound terrible. Yeah,

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Adam Curry: yes. Yeah, we're
gonna what do we have? I'm gonna

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say RSB will it be the code Come
on, come on big money. Big

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money. Big money. Bola Ebola.
Black? See got black? Yeah, I

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think it's either. I mean, we
went to Minneapolis for no

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agenda meet 130 people was
fantastic. In and out one one

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day. Really cool. Fly. Yeah,
well, I didn't fly myself. We

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flew southwest. Okay. And it was
dynamite. But you know, you're

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shaking 130 hands and you're
taking selfies. I'm gonna say

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that's where you can possibly
get some kind of diseased human

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resource breathing down my neck.
Either that or just the

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airplane? I don't know. I'm
trying not to get to sick.

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That's the main thing.

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Dave Jones: Cuz you know, are
you what's the what? What are

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you haven't been flying lately?
No, notice this.

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Adam Curry: Now we flew to
Houston. Yeah, I haven't had any

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destinations. Really? Yeah, I
mean, Houston. Houston would

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have been a good one. But I you
know, I had the pastor and his

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wife. So we had someone else fly
us in a little bit bigger plane.

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Still Still turboprop. You know,
I be honest with you, Dave. I'm

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59 I fly with my buddy. Mitch,
who's my periodontist?

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Dave Jones: Yeah, it's because
you bought his planes got

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bought?

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Adam Curry: Yeah, base. And, and
you know, we're flying out to

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Dallas. And just the amount of I
mean, I can fly I can I can do

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all of this. The amount of
traffic and stuff and the

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attentiveness and, you know, the
understanding of the situational

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awareness of any airport, I
would go to, I mean, you're

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still going to we're going to
Houston or Dallas, even San

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Antonio, I mean, it's all going
to be within these areas that

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are heavily congested, lots of
airports, lots of traffic. And

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if you screw up, you know, which
can be a hesitation when the air

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controller asks something, you
know, you get put in the penalty

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box fly 20 minutes that way,
we'll talk to you later. You

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know, it's really Oh, yeah.
Well, yeah, they got they got a

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lot going on. You know, they got
all kinds of, I'm slow. You

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know, I'm always going to be
slower than than any of the big

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boys. So I'm just thinking, you
know, maybe I should just have

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someone else fly. It's better
that way. It's just it's a

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little much. You know, I I'm
pretty good with the with the

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audio mixer. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,
that's 45 years. I can do that.

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You know, I'll just do boosted
ground balls instead of flying.

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Dave Jones: Yeah, make a career
change. Yeah. Is, are you? I

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mean, how bad is your illness?
Are you? Are you feverish?

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Adam Curry: Uh, yeah. I mean, I
was coughing all night. My

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throat hurts. My body aches.
That's about it. So I know. Oh,

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you might have COVID Yeah, mind,
but I'm not going to test.

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That's fine.

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Dave Jones: Don't do. Don't do
testing around here anymore. For

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any No, no.

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Adam Curry: Do we have home kits
but I'm not I'm not going to

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touch it. I'm just, you know,
give me some Advil. I'm good to

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go. Advil, the

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Dave Jones: the, the PDF. The
pediatrician literally told us

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like a year ago, they're like
now we don't really test for

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COVID anymore because it's it
screws up people's school

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schedule.

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Adam Curry: Exactly. Exactly.
Anyway, it's been a very

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powerful week in podcasting. A
lot of interesting articles that

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have come out, based upon the
news, which is this

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Unknown: one out of every six
employees of Spotify won't be

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around next year, the company's
making those deep cuts to its

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payroll as it looks to cut
expenses. top executives blame

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higher interest rates saying
that they make borrowing for

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capital expenditures more
expensive. The affected

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employees will receive several
months severance. The cut

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follows two previous layoffs
this year, a total of 800

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employees were let go. Now.

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Adam Curry: I'm pretty sure
that's exactly what we were

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talking about that it's like
they have no capital, that the

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cost of capital is too expensive
because of the you know, the

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free money riders oversee
exactly what we've been saying

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for a whole year, for a whole
year.

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Dave Jones: And yeah, yeah, it's
worth I think it's worth talking

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about. Because we've been using
this term, the free money is

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gone. And, you know, people have
been talking about this. I

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think, one is some article a
while back used the term, like

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the dumb money is, is gone or
something like that.

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Adam Curry: I wouldn't say it
was dumb money. It was just

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there was free money. I mean, it
was free, when it's free money,

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then you can take big bets on
stuff. But

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Dave Jones: specifically the
debt like the details of what

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you know, what it means when to
say that the free money is gone

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is basically this is the way
this works is when you know when

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interest rates go up. Basically,
US Treasuries become more

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attractive than risky bets,
because you have you have US

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Treasuries paying in
specifically treasuries, paying

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5%. Plus, investors redirect all
their cat, other capital, or

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their all their free cash that
is available for investing, they

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redirect that into a sure thing.
Yeah. I mean, if you can get a

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guaranteed 5% or more on a
treasury bill. Yeah. Then why in

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the world, would you would you
do? Are you going to put any of

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that money into Spotify or some
crazy startup? Hell no.

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Adam Curry: But also, people
need to remember the Spotify was

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not an initial public offering
in the truest sense of the word.

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They didn't raise capital, they
went to they just appeared on

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the on the stock market. So you
know, it was what is it reverse

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listing or direct listing? I
think they call it so there was

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no underwriter that, you know,
that had all this, you know,

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that had basically sold shares
and got all this extra money,

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they had money, which they had
raised, that privately in

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subsequent rounds, when money
was very, very cheap. Now, their

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business model will never make
them a very successful company,

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because their business model is
owned by the publishers and

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labels. They own. They own most
of the stock. So that I saw

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something like, yeah, Spotify is
owned by China. No, no, no, no,

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that's not true. No, it's not
true. Spotify is owned by music

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insiders. And it's, it's just a
pass through. It's a pass

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through from you, the the
audience to them. And Spotify

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that Oh, guys, you got to make
it work. And and, you know,

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Spotify

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Dave Jones: is the music labels.
I mean, yes. Yeah. What did it

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it's similar? You know, I
started thinking about it this

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week. It's similar to Hulu. Hulu
was basically the big

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broadcasters. They're like, you
know, they came together and did

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this essentially joint joint
investment. With it, I think

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it's mostly they've a lot of the
pulled out now. And it's mostly

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Disney left holding the bag. But
initially, Hulu was always

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buddy. It was everybody. Yeah,
everybody went in together so

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that there would be this sort of
common marketplace for streaming

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television. It helped them to
have like a common store for

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digital storefront, because they
didn't have to build everything

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themselves, they could just pump
their content over there. And

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then they were done. And this,
that's essentially what Spotify

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is for the music labels. It's
universal, Sony and his the the,

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the big three, essentially, they
they just have a common

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storefront where they, where
it's a one stop shop for people

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to go and get their strange
streaming music. And that

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happens to be Spotify.

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Adam Curry: So the idea that
they had, just to review was

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let's expand, here's all this
free content. Let's take that.

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And you know, let's have some of
our own shows. And then they

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went off the rails and they they
had McKinsey, I think McKinsey

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interview a lot of people they
wrote a whole strategy, a white

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paper, which never got a copy of
that they promised I would get

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it. And I said no, don't do this
is not a good idea. This is just

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not not a good idea. And but
what they did, is they created a

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huge hype in around podcasting,
which was already on the way up

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because of great content from
the 2016 Cereal podcast. This is

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what got people interested in
again at that at the height of

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streaming when everybody was
binging and showing up at the

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office on Monday morning, you
know that their job was on the

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floor. Now all sudden, you had
to wait until the next week to

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listen to this very exciting
true crime drama, which you

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know, that's a very exciting
content format. So When they

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started shelling out the money,
the end buying up, you know,

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companies that had no profits
gimlet, etc. Ringer. They were

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in all these companies were in
trouble. But it was big money.

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It was you know, hundreds of
millions of dollars Joe Rogan.

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We still don't know exactly how
much it was or, but okay, let's

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just say it's the purported $2
million $200 million. And now in

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that in that, that started the
whole frenzy, and everybody

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went, Oh, this is great.
Fantastic. We're good to go. You

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know, that would that came. You
know, the typical, the people

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who had been scraping by gimlet
now all sudden, they wanted to

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have, you know, $150,000 year
salaries. The money was flowing,

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the money was cheap. And now the
inverse has happened. You know,

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it's like Sorry, now we're
cutting everything. Now.

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Podcasting sucks. Now, it's no
good. It's, you know, AI is all

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we're talking about. But I do
want to take us back to last

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October 2022. This is the head
of talk verticals. I think those

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this was the presentation, I'm
going to say that. We probably

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got this from pod news. Weekly
Review. I'm not sure I know,

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James definitely linked to, you
know, to the to the investor

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conference. I think that's what
it was. And here's here is how

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Spotify was thinking just a
little over two years or one

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year ago.

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Unknown: Think about it.
Podcasting has been around for

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almost two decades, and it's
remained largely unchanged.

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Mainly because of the
limitations of RSS. We've been

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able to replace RSS for on
platform distribution, which

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means that podcasts created on
our platform are no longer held

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back by this outdated
technology. This has opened up a

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new world of opportunity to add
features and formats to the

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podcast listening experience
that have never been possible

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before. So Spotify is now not
only differentiated by our

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catalogue of content, but also
by delivering a truly superior

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product for podcast listeners
and creators.

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Adam Curry: I would wager to say
that didn't materialize anything

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that was superior.

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Dave Jones: That was actually my
clip. I remember that, oh,

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maybe. Well, then

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Adam Curry: here's when we
pulled this other one another

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Unknown: way we've been able to
innovate on the format. We've

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made podcasts more interactive,
finally enabling a deeper, more

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intimate connection between
creators and their fans. One of

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our favorite things about
podcasting is the unique

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connection it enables between
creators and listeners. It's

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intimate show, voices are
directly in listeners ears. But

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until now, podcasting has been a
one way street creators publish

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shows and their audiences
Listen, traditionally, RSS has

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been limited to anonymized,
aggregated analytics. And even

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those are limited to what can be
determined from IP addresses.

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There you go. Yeah, because of
these limitations, fans have

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never had a good way to reach
their favorite creators

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directly.

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Adam Curry: No, that's no, it's
because of these limitations.

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Wasn't that creators and I have
a problem with the term

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creators, creators couldn't it's
not they couldn't reach their

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audiences effectively is that
you couldn't track audience

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members and advertise. And then
you were totally able to do it,

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and you still couldn't pull it
off. But

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Unknown: now we're changing that
we're changing. Our first way of

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addressing this was with q&a and
polls, both text based questions

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that can be posed by the show's
creators and surface listeners

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in the Spotify app. These
interactive features make it

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easy for listeners to engage
with the people behind their

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favorite podcasts, and for
creators to hear from their

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audience directly on Spotify.
These features are available now

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to all anchor creators around
the world. We've heard from many

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creators, the q&a and polls have
been crucial in helping them

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develop engaged audiences that
keep coming back for more

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crucial Yeah, crucial. And this
is just the beginning of our

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interactive tools. For podcasts,
we're really excited to

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introduce lots of new ways for
creators and their fans to

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connect with each other.

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Adam Curry: So I am so happy
that we just stuck to our guns,

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we stuck to RSS. Now this
doesn't mean that we solve any,

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any money making issues per se.
We don't have any solutions for

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advertising. In fact, we built
out value for value, which does

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work for people who dive into
it. And I think over time,

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you'll see that value for value
will have its hits, real hits. I

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mean, I consider no agenda to be
a hit. I consider the show to be

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a hit now we can't live off of
it. But our project is running

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off of it. That's for sure
that's a hit you know, that's

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that's good. It's hope betting
against RSS is just not a good

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idea betting against the the
general idea of distributing

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your podcast far and wide
through RSS is just again, not a

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good idea. Now, here's the
problem. You know, the

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advertising market is finicky.
You know, what is the hot thing

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right now? So podcasting was the
hot thing, you know, they were

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40 $50,000 per spot. Go went out
um, as I was reading in this,

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Adam Davidson, The Rise and Fall
of podcasting, I mean that $100

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CPMs Okay. And you know now that
podcasting is kind of falling

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out of favor because hey,
Spotify can make it work that

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firing people it's no good. You
know, the media buyers there,

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they're going to they're
spending the same money on Tik

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Tok, or wherever in anywhere but
here, which, of course, is why

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we have this, the podcast
industrial complex. I'm leading

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right to you, Dave, you can see
it. The podcast industrial

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complex is, is touting video as
the only way forward and

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audiences have changed and oh,
no, we have to stay. You know,

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we have to be flexible now. No.
And by the way, this week in

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tech, complete video, all these
shows are video yet, and I am

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sad, you know, here's Leo had to
let three people go who had been

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there for for like 1515 years.
And he says here. Unfortunately,

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our medium podcasting has
suffered economically since the

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beginning of COVID. As the
number of podcasts grew

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exponentially, the number of
advertisers dwindled, and with

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it, our revenue. At one time, we
had as many as 30 people on

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Twitch staff, not including show
hosts, producing more than 30

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unique shows today, the staff is
half that size. And we produce

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half the number of shows all
video, by the way. So get out of

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here with your video argument is
just bowl and they put it on

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YouTube and all it's not
working. Because it's out of

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favor. You know, we weren't
there. I guarantee you in some

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time, it could be five years
from now. I mean, this is almost

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a repeat of when YouTube was
purchased, or was it a billion

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dollars or $2 billion. And
everybody always gotta have you

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gotta have video. I had a
company my my VCs were literally

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saying, You gotta have video,
it's got to be video. So we did

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video? And did it make a
difference? No. No?

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Dave Jones: So did do you think
video? And what did VT was

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video? How instrumental was
video in the demise of pod show?

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Of me view? The heck if you had
not gone into video, would it?

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Would you have survived longer?
No,

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Adam Curry: no, because it was
an advertising based model.

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That's why I left. It's like you
can't make this work. You can't

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make it work. Because CPMs are a
race to the bottom always. It's

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always a race to the bottom. So
you wind up with you know,

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cheap, crappy content. And
particularly if you're producing

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video, it gets very expensive
very quickly, or at least

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expensive in in human resource
cycles. So it just doesn't work.

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Now what will happen, and
history repeats or rhymes, we

299
00:17:56,340 --> 00:17:59,550
will see a another show that
will come out of nowhere that

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people are going to be crazy
about that. It'll be audio and

301
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they're going to love it and
people will start listening or

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it'll start being hyped again.
Now, will it be advertising has

303
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a place in podcasting? It sure
does. But it's not this inserted

304
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ads and all this stuff. It's
none of that. No, bridesmaid

305
00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:23,700
magazine. That's how I see it.

306
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Dave Jones: But you've got to
when it comes to advertising,

307
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you have a sort of baseline of
like brand, what you could call

308
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like brand awareness
advertising, that's just never

309
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gonna go away. I mean, brands
have to, like if you're Johnson

310
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and Johnson, you've got to just
advertise on a consistent basis

311
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to maintain to maintain public
awareness of your brand. Yeah, I

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00:18:48,450 --> 00:18:50,640
Adam Curry: don't see a Johnson
and Johnson ad anywhere in

313
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,340
podcasting. Not a single one.
No,

314
00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,070
Dave Jones: but there's some
there's that out there and that

315
00:18:56,070 --> 00:18:59,970
stuff is just always going to be
there. But it to some degree. I

316
00:18:59,970 --> 00:19:03,180
mean, it'll fluctuate a little
bit, but there's that back sort

317
00:19:03,180 --> 00:19:07,020
of background radiation level of
brand awareness advertising,

318
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where it's just like, Okay, we,
we just got to do this always.

319
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But then there's the, you know,
the the actual campaigns where

320
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they push specific things, and
they do and they stick their

321
00:19:17,220 --> 00:19:21,990
neck out advertising wise,
those, you know, those are taken

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00:19:21,990 --> 00:19:25,200
a hit. That's what you know,
that's what people are the,

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00:19:25,740 --> 00:19:28,800
like, spot. And there's also the
thing like specifically with

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Spotify, they went to, like
during the pandemic they went up

325
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from like, they doubled in size
5000 to like 10,000 employees.

326
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This This was never sustainable.
I mean, when, when, when, when

327
00:19:43,050 --> 00:19:46,950
tray, when Treasuries are paying
next to nothing Yeah, there you

328
00:19:46,950 --> 00:19:50,820
go. Investors have to put their
money somewhere to get a return.

329
00:19:51,090 --> 00:19:54,330
And one might as well put it
into podcasting. But But when

330
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that's no longer the case, and
the script flips and you can

331
00:19:56,790 --> 00:19:58,950
make guaranteed money somewhere
else. You're not going to put

332
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your money into podcasting
because it's a joke. So when the

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00:20:01,890 --> 00:20:04,740
money like when the money dried
up, they had no choice but to

334
00:20:04,740 --> 00:20:08,460
reduce headcount. There's this
the in the stock price bump,

335
00:20:08,490 --> 00:20:10,920
they got I mean, that's like a,
you could call that like a

336
00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:15,060
survival bounce basically the
stock price, they it reflects

337
00:20:15,060 --> 00:20:19,140
the fact that being profitable
means they just won't go

338
00:20:19,140 --> 00:20:23,340
bankrupt. Like that. It's not
like they're going to be

339
00:20:23,340 --> 00:20:26,310
gangbusters. It's not like
they're going to make tons of

340
00:20:26,310 --> 00:20:30,060
money. It's just Okay, now
they're not going to die.

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00:20:31,500 --> 00:20:33,990
Adam Curry: It was interesting,
because while I was gonna say,

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00:20:34,020 --> 00:20:37,290
you know, what happened is the
same thing. Excuse me, the same

343
00:20:37,290 --> 00:20:39,450
thing that happened with
blogging is people thought,

344
00:20:39,450 --> 00:20:41,850
well, I got a blog, I have
readers, therefore, I shouldn't

345
00:20:41,850 --> 00:20:46,890
be making money. No, it's just
not true. I mean, I spent 16

346
00:20:46,890 --> 00:20:50,250
years with the Vortec, building
up an audience. And the first

347
00:20:50,940 --> 00:20:57,930
four years were not sustainable.
You know, we took risks, to get

348
00:20:57,930 --> 00:21:02,190
it to where it is, and it was
much earlier, you know, the, we

349
00:21:02,190 --> 00:21:05,580
didn't have the tools. There's a
lot of things we didn't have. We

350
00:21:05,580 --> 00:21:08,850
were also building the awareness
of podcasting. And you know,

351
00:21:08,850 --> 00:21:11,400
we've never done video voice
that under the radar, and

352
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:13,860
anybody can go listen to our
donation segments, and you'll

353
00:21:13,860 --> 00:21:17,310
hear that we are able to sustain
two families with kids who went

354
00:21:17,310 --> 00:21:20,850
through school and we're doing
okay, yeah, it was not Joe Rogan

355
00:21:20,850 --> 00:21:25,770
money. But that's okay. You can
have a book, you can have a

356
00:21:25,770 --> 00:21:28,710
message you can have a church he
had, there's so many ways that

357
00:21:28,710 --> 00:21:32,790
podcasting is beneficial to
humanity that just doesn't

358
00:21:32,790 --> 00:21:37,620
involve this noise, which is
numbers and ad rates. And that's

359
00:21:37,620 --> 00:21:41,730
just over for now. It's over.
And all we're seeing now is the

360
00:21:42,180 --> 00:21:46,530
is the last jerky moves, you
know, like the the corpse is

361
00:21:46,530 --> 00:21:50,520
still twitching on the ground.
And that's, let's go to video

362
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,370
because that's where everybody
is. You got to be everywhere.

363
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,050
No, no,

364
00:21:55,410 --> 00:21:57,180
Dave Jones: no, no before the
defibrillator pads.

365
00:21:58,260 --> 00:22:00,120
Adam Curry: They're not going to
help. They're not going to help.

366
00:22:00,330 --> 00:22:03,990
And I, you know, I wish
everybody lots of success. But I

367
00:22:03,990 --> 00:22:07,260
think certainly our message is
Britain pretty consistent in

368
00:22:07,260 --> 00:22:11,760
this. No, it's just it doesn't
work. It doesn't work.

369
00:22:12,360 --> 00:22:18,810
Dave Jones: You know, the listen
to podcast weekly review, or

370
00:22:18,810 --> 00:22:22,920
pardon us weekly review. And
they were talking about the this

371
00:22:22,950 --> 00:22:27,330
2026 float that that Netflix
that mean, excuse me that

372
00:22:27,330 --> 00:22:31,350
Spotify supposedly did that now
that's, you know, looming that

373
00:22:31,350 --> 00:22:31,710
I'm sorry.

374
00:22:31,740 --> 00:22:34,860
Adam Curry: Oh, yeah. They have
to pay back like $2 billion or

375
00:22:34,860 --> 00:22:35,340
something.

376
00:22:35,730 --> 00:22:37,620
Dave Jones: Yeah. Right. And
that's, you know, I'm sure I'm

377
00:22:37,620 --> 00:22:39,960
sure if for sure. That's in
there. But one thing that was

378
00:22:39,990 --> 00:22:49,590
interesting is the A saw this
phrase, in the same article by

379
00:22:50,910 --> 00:22:57,270
Ben Thompson, where he mentioned
that in 2018, Spotify had

380
00:22:57,270 --> 00:23:02,250
renegotiated their royalty rates
with the major with the music

381
00:23:02,250 --> 00:23:08,910
labels. Yes. And they rate the
deal was, according to him that

382
00:23:08,910 --> 00:23:14,670
the renegotiated lower rate was
in exchange for, quote,

383
00:23:14,700 --> 00:23:19,050
guaranteed subscriber growth,
unquote, which I

384
00:23:19,050 --> 00:23:20,850
Adam Curry: thought I haven't
read. I haven't read the piece

385
00:23:20,850 --> 00:23:24,270
I'll have to read. Okay. I went
looking for confirmation

386
00:23:24,270 --> 00:23:27,600
Dave Jones: of this. And I found
a few other articles that

387
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,410
mentioned the same thing from
that period of time it was it

388
00:23:31,410 --> 00:23:35,520
was coverage. One was from NPR,
where it covered where it

389
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,940
covered the renegotiation at the
time it happened. It mentions

390
00:23:38,940 --> 00:23:41,460
the same thing. And there was
another analysis piece that

391
00:23:41,460 --> 00:23:43,740
happened around that same time,
they mentioned the same thing

392
00:23:43,740 --> 00:23:48,120
that basically they had made
promises to the record labels

393
00:23:48,150 --> 00:23:53,850
that they would have a specific
subscriber growth rate in order

394
00:23:53,850 --> 00:23:56,940
to get those lower royalties.
And if the royal if their growth

395
00:23:56,940 --> 00:24:00,060
rate ever went down, dropped
below that, that the royalties

396
00:24:00,060 --> 00:24:06,030
would go up. Yeah. You know,
that puts a different twist on a

397
00:24:06,030 --> 00:24:11,370
lot of the podcast exclusives.
They did like Rogen, the Rogen

398
00:24:11,370 --> 00:24:15,990
stuff in that regard. Yeah, it
wasn't an advertising play.

399
00:24:15,990 --> 00:24:22,260
Sure. But it also makes you
think, Okay, well, if we can't

400
00:24:22,260 --> 00:24:26,730
meet subscriber growth demands,
pulling in a large, popular

401
00:24:26,730 --> 00:24:27,870
exclusive podcast.

402
00:24:28,230 --> 00:24:29,940
Adam Curry: That's, that's what
saved them probably.

403
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,660
Dave Jones: Yeah, you get to,
let's say you pay out 200

404
00:24:33,660 --> 00:24:37,020
million over over 10 years, or
something like that, whoever

405
00:24:37,020 --> 00:24:40,800
whatever the contract was, if
that maintains your ability to

406
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,560
have lower royalty rates that
could pay for itself easily.

407
00:24:43,590 --> 00:24:49,320
Adam Curry: There's also a
cultural problem at Spotify. And

408
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,350
if you recall, I wish I had the
clip. I probably don't have any

409
00:24:52,350 --> 00:24:56,010
more. Let me see. It was the CT
of this. There were all these

410
00:24:56,040 --> 00:25:01,950
music artists and we seek to
Spotify I wish I had that all

411
00:25:01,950 --> 00:25:04,170
these music artists and they
were bitching and moaning and

412
00:25:04,170 --> 00:25:07,110
complaining about, you know,
that they weren't getting paid

413
00:25:07,110 --> 00:25:12,330
or whatever. And the CT, I think
was the CTO. He says, you know,

414
00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:16,200
you really should be happy that
we're putting that we have this

415
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:17,280
platform for you.

416
00:25:18,090 --> 00:25:19,920
Dave Jones: I remember that.
Yeah, we I think we played a

417
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:21,810
clip and yeah, I wish I could
find it.

418
00:25:23,310 --> 00:25:25,560
Adam Curry: And, and it just
showed, you know, because

419
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:30,660
initially, Spotify was a if I if
I recall, it was a peer to peer

420
00:25:30,690 --> 00:25:33,810
it was kind of like a legal
Napster. Initially, it had a

421
00:25:33,810 --> 00:25:37,080
peer to peer distribution
system. There was something in

422
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:41,670
there that changed later. But
they've never really, they've

423
00:25:41,670 --> 00:25:44,100
always thought of themselves as
hey, we're, we're the big

424
00:25:44,100 --> 00:25:47,160
powerful Spotify, and you should
just be happy that we let you

425
00:25:47,190 --> 00:25:51,150
ride along on our coattails.
It's just it's just the, the DNA

426
00:25:51,150 --> 00:25:55,050
of the company. I'm not saying
it's good or bad. But you know,

427
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,410
so there's no one gets any, this
is not going to be any love

428
00:25:58,410 --> 00:26:00,480
going back to them now that they
have problems.

429
00:26:00,810 --> 00:26:02,640
Dave Jones: Well, I think they
inherited that attitude,

430
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:08,250
probably from the music labels
because the music or the music

431
00:26:08,250 --> 00:26:19,080
labels are that is maybe people
arts don't appreciate how big

432
00:26:19,140 --> 00:26:23,520
and serious of a business, the
music, stuff that music rights

433
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:29,580
holders stuff is if you look I
saw the other day you posted

434
00:26:29,580 --> 00:26:33,120
something about Rush. Rush is
catalog being sold new happened

435
00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:37,290
back in like 2014 or so. There's
a rush sold their music catalog

436
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:46,320
to this company called ole ole
is owned, I think majority owned

437
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:51,420
by the Ontario teachers pension
fund. Yeah, so yeah. Big

438
00:26:51,420 --> 00:26:55,110
investment. Yeah, the entire
entire Ontario teachers pension

439
00:26:55,110 --> 00:27:01,200
fund now owns lots of music
royalty, and music catalogs.

440
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,650
This is huge business a hundreds
and hundreds of millions of

441
00:27:04,650 --> 00:27:09,420
dollars. That is owned by
pension funds, retirement plans.

442
00:27:09,810 --> 00:27:14,490
The like, these are serious
people with high value assets

443
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:19,740
that must make a return. They're
not playing around. No, no,

444
00:27:19,770 --> 00:27:22,290
Adam Curry: no, exactly.
Especially if they control it

445
00:27:22,290 --> 00:27:25,590
know if they can if they have
control. Absolutely. But this

446
00:27:25,590 --> 00:27:28,530
has been going on for a long
time. And David Bowie famously

447
00:27:28,530 --> 00:27:31,920
sold his rights, you know, way
back a Shoe Man was in the late

448
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:37,080
90s for 50 million when 50
million was 50 million. So

449
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:44,580
anyway, long story short, we
need to reset what's not we I

450
00:27:44,580 --> 00:27:48,870
think we're actually pretty
good. I think value for value is

451
00:27:48,900 --> 00:27:54,030
starting to show. Benefit. I
think that the value for value

452
00:27:54,030 --> 00:27:59,220
music is where we have a lot so
much room to grow. We can we can

453
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:04,080
absolutely supplant radio, I
mean, radios got the numbers on

454
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,500
radio are humongous. But it's
also expensive to operate. I

455
00:28:07,500 --> 00:28:11,010
heart I heart, which owns a lot
of stations, not a very healthy

456
00:28:11,010 --> 00:28:14,070
company financially. And you
know, it's only going to get

457
00:28:14,070 --> 00:28:16,800
worse, Sirius XM, they're going
to have to shoot birds in this

458
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,040
space. Again, these things do
expire. Now, I don't think

459
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,670
interest rates are coming down
anytime soon. I don't either. So

460
00:28:23,670 --> 00:28:27,960
it's going it's going to be
tough for a lot of this. And as

461
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:28,110
long

462
00:28:28,110 --> 00:28:32,130
Dave Jones: as that rate dropped
yesterday to 3.7 on the wrong,

463
00:28:32,370 --> 00:28:32,670
that'd be

464
00:28:32,670 --> 00:28:34,980
Adam Curry: the opposite. They
say exactly the opposite of what

465
00:28:34,980 --> 00:28:40,860
they want. Yeah. So it's so it's
so crooked in the world that the

466
00:28:40,860 --> 00:28:44,760
Federal Reserve who prints the
US dollar is happy when more

467
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,610
people are out of work. It's
amazing. Yeah,

468
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:48,660
Dave Jones: that's what they're
cheering

469
00:28:48,690 --> 00:28:50,760
Adam Curry: they're cheering for
it. Yes, exactly.

470
00:28:51,690 --> 00:28:54,210
Dave Jones: I brought I brought
clips from the media roundtable

471
00:28:54,210 --> 00:28:57,300
speaking of radios, because a
couple of radio guys know now

472
00:28:57,300 --> 00:29:00,300
Adam Curry: this, I heard this.
So I'll be interested in going

473
00:29:00,300 --> 00:29:04,830
clips up you picked. But this is
one of these guys is the

474
00:29:04,830 --> 00:29:08,790
professor who teaches podcast
does he teach podcasting? What

475
00:29:08,790 --> 00:29:16,800
is his actual? What is his
course that he teaches? Is audio

476
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:17,580
podcast,

477
00:29:17,610 --> 00:29:19,950
Dave Jones: podcasting or
something like that? I'm not

478
00:29:19,950 --> 00:29:21,750
sure he's the podcast,
professor. I don't know.

479
00:29:21,870 --> 00:29:25,680
Adam Curry: I mean, I've sparred
with him on on Twitter a long

480
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,590
time ago. I'm like, What is
wrong with you?

481
00:29:32,430 --> 00:29:34,620
Dave Jones: I'm sure he's a
great guy. I'm not impressed by

482
00:29:34,620 --> 00:29:38,760
his analysis. I mean, I'll just
put my cards on the table. I

483
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,240
mean, which sounds silly because
he's a radio veteran. And I'm,

484
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:48,720
you know, I'm just an IT guy.
But, I mean, I think I can make

485
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:54,150
the point that some of the
analysis is just it has some

486
00:29:54,150 --> 00:29:58,890
fundamental contradictions that
make me question the whole

487
00:29:58,890 --> 00:30:05,070
thing. So let's let's just start
off by the basic thesis. And I

488
00:30:05,070 --> 00:30:09,480
want to I want to drive a point
here, that so they start off by,

489
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,560
he mentioned, well, let me set
it up. So this is the media

490
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:18,240
roundtable show. This is Oxford
road advertising agency. And

491
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,900
this is Dan Granger, I believe
is his name interviewing Steven

492
00:30:21,900 --> 00:30:25,380
Goldstein. And Steven Goldstein
is the guy who's a professor at

493
00:30:25,380 --> 00:30:28,830
NYU teaches a class on
podcasting. But he's also an

494
00:30:28,830 --> 00:30:31,680
advertising guy. So these just
the context here is these are

495
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:39,720
two advertising guys that came
into the podcasting world from

496
00:30:40,020 --> 00:30:43,290
radio according to what they
have described themselves. So

497
00:30:43,290 --> 00:30:49,470
they his so Goldstein, I think,
had a hand a pretty big hand in

498
00:30:50,010 --> 00:30:55,260
the study a few months ago that
said that most people listen to

499
00:30:55,260 --> 00:30:57,180
their podcasts on YouTube. He

500
00:30:57,180 --> 00:31:01,530
Adam Curry: is his amplify
media, I think is his that's his

501
00:31:01,530 --> 00:31:01,950
thing.

502
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,340
Dave Jones: Yeah, I mean,
advertising is what is

503
00:31:05,340 --> 00:31:09,810
advertised? Yes. Advertising.
Yeah. So they he is advocating

504
00:31:09,810 --> 00:31:13,710
for moving what he's saying
moving beyond the RSS feed,

505
00:31:15,030 --> 00:31:18,210
Unknown: once a podcast, because
I think that's where we are at

506
00:31:18,210 --> 00:31:23,820
this moment. This takes us up to
today. You know, does it have to

507
00:31:23,820 --> 00:31:28,830
have that RSS feed? Or is it
likely to be something else? And

508
00:31:28,830 --> 00:31:31,920
I think about this, and we'll
talk about this probably quite a

509
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:37,050
bit. I think about this. Outside
of podcast terms, I think about

510
00:31:37,050 --> 00:31:41,160
things like NBC, they used to
feed shows to affiliates around

511
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,070
the country. That's not the
business they're in anymore. And

512
00:31:44,070 --> 00:31:47,160
weirdly, they used to pay the
affiliates. Now the affiliates

513
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:52,110
pay them. But their content is
on apps and streams and it's all

514
00:31:52,110 --> 00:31:56,490
over the place. They're going to
do whatever it takes, including

515
00:31:56,490 --> 00:32:00,960
YouTube, to get audience. And
that's where we are in

516
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:01,860
podcasting.

517
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,180
Adam Curry: That's where you are
in podcasting, bro. And I just

518
00:32:06,180 --> 00:32:08,760
want to point out, you know,
Steven B said, you know, before

519
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,730
the music is so small drop in
the bucket, that's not the

520
00:32:11,730 --> 00:32:15,870
point. All the numbers do what
he did with this with this guy

521
00:32:15,870 --> 00:32:18,570
is going to be saying, all of
the you got to be the biggest

522
00:32:18,570 --> 00:32:23,400
you got to have more, you got to
grow your show. No, no, that's

523
00:32:23,430 --> 00:32:26,520
that's over, that is all going
to be over. Nothing will be

524
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,940
sustainable anymore. There's too
much media. There's too many

525
00:32:29,940 --> 00:32:33,780
channels, too many streamers.
There's too much out there. That

526
00:32:33,780 --> 00:32:41,070
CPMs is no artificial inventory
shortage that you can create.

527
00:32:41,070 --> 00:32:44,010
Because you you can just create
as much as you want. It's a race

528
00:32:44,010 --> 00:32:48,480
to the bottom. So that is over.
But the people who are in V for

529
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,590
V music right now, they have
never seen any money from

530
00:32:52,590 --> 00:32:55,560
Spotify, or any of the streamers
now that they're seeing, okay,

531
00:32:55,560 --> 00:33:00,840
100 bucks, 500 bucks. They're
ecstatic. That's the point.

532
00:33:00,870 --> 00:33:04,020
That's where we're going. You
don't need to have, you don't

533
00:33:04,020 --> 00:33:06,420
need to have the biggest
numbers. You don't need to be

534
00:33:06,570 --> 00:33:09,210
the top of the leaderboard or
the rancor. It's just not

535
00:33:09,210 --> 00:33:12,600
necessary in this new model.
Well,

536
00:33:12,630 --> 00:33:14,850
Dave Jones: I mean, Harvey
Harvey has said, right off the

537
00:33:14,850 --> 00:33:18,660
bat, I've never I've never
watched NBC on an app. Like,

538
00:33:18,690 --> 00:33:23,820
yeah, that's there's these these
examples of a you know, they're,

539
00:33:24,090 --> 00:33:26,430
these are broadcast television,
and now they're doing streaming

540
00:33:26,430 --> 00:33:30,990
and now they're doing, you know,
an app, those those, that's a

541
00:33:30,990 --> 00:33:33,900
terrible example because those
those streaming apps lose money.

542
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,140
They're all bleeding money, left
and right. They're not making

543
00:33:37,140 --> 00:33:37,800
anything this

544
00:33:37,860 --> 00:33:40,410
Adam Curry: Steven Goldstein,
he's really a radio guy, the way

545
00:33:40,410 --> 00:33:45,510
I see it. He's a professor and a
creator of the business of

546
00:33:45,510 --> 00:33:49,080
podcasting course. But yeah,
that's that's the Steinhardt

547
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,930
School of Culture Education,
Human Development, okay.

548
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,050
Dave Jones: He goes on to clip
to talking to talking about

549
00:33:55,050 --> 00:33:56,730
chasing audience which is good,
can we

550
00:33:56,730 --> 00:34:00,720
Unknown: be more pliable and so
I would like to think that we

551
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:06,300
can move past the RSS feed and
be more nimble and focus on

552
00:34:06,330 --> 00:34:08,130
garnering audience wherever it
comes from.

553
00:34:09,299 --> 00:34:11,669
Adam Curry: Does this guy teach
how to make good podcasts or

554
00:34:11,669 --> 00:34:16,109
just how to get ghost collect to
collect audience members like

555
00:34:16,109 --> 00:34:19,499
their like their, you know,
tarot cards or something?

556
00:34:20,130 --> 00:34:23,010
Dave Jones: was about that it's
about advertising in this, you

557
00:34:23,010 --> 00:34:29,400
know, I've been trying to make
this point from for a while now

558
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:34,080
is that there is a what you
would, how would you describe

559
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:41,850
this there is a there, there's a
separation in these are

560
00:34:41,850 --> 00:34:46,020
advertising people they've
already made the transition from

561
00:34:46,020 --> 00:34:53,040
broadcast radio, to podcasting.
There's no loyalty in these in

562
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:57,210
these people to a particular
medium. They are advertising.

563
00:34:57,570 --> 00:35:01,470
They will that when you're in
advertising You fought you go to

564
00:35:01,470 --> 00:35:06,000
whichever medium is necessary to
sell advertising. Yes, that's,

565
00:35:06,030 --> 00:35:12,870
that's different than the actual
pod podcast industry that is

566
00:35:12,870 --> 00:35:16,290
fundamental to the architecture
of podcasting. And that's why,

567
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,050
you know, we've we've said many
times there is no quote unquote,

568
00:35:19,050 --> 00:35:22,830
podcast industry. Because what
the pot when people refer to the

569
00:35:22,830 --> 00:35:26,550
podcast industry, they talk
about podcasting as if it's some

570
00:35:26,550 --> 00:35:31,620
hole, but it's not it's actually
very fragmented. You have, what

571
00:35:31,620 --> 00:35:38,550
you have underneath podcasting
is, Ace is a set of profitable

572
00:35:38,550 --> 00:35:44,550
hosting companies, Buzzsprout,
arsons, DICOM, blueberry. And

573
00:35:44,580 --> 00:35:51,180
you have you have them as the
substrate upon which the content

574
00:35:51,180 --> 00:35:55,800
is distributed through RSS. And
then overlaid on top of that you

575
00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:02,460
have a bunch of ad digital
advertising people in those, the

576
00:36:02,460 --> 00:36:06,270
point that I've been trying to
make is that those two things

577
00:36:06,270 --> 00:36:10,830
are at Fun, fundamentally, kind
of at odds with each other. They

578
00:36:10,830 --> 00:36:14,310
see they you see that RSS isn't
going to give you what you want,

579
00:36:14,580 --> 00:36:17,730
as an advertising person. Right?
You're just going to bail out

580
00:36:17,730 --> 00:36:22,590
and go to YouTube. Yeah, I mean,
like, if you click three, he

581
00:36:22,590 --> 00:36:25,740
talks about the, the
flexibility, we need more

582
00:36:25,740 --> 00:36:28,500
flexibility than RSS. And that's
what he's always talking about.

583
00:36:28,740 --> 00:36:32,790
Unknown: But I think we as
people in the podcast space,

584
00:36:33,300 --> 00:36:38,040
need to be what do I want to
show we need to be more

585
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:38,580
flexible?

586
00:36:38,670 --> 00:36:41,670
Adam Curry: I love podcast
space. Even the podcast makes

587
00:36:41,670 --> 00:36:43,230
bro. Yeah,

588
00:36:43,230 --> 00:36:45,690
Dave Jones: so he says, in
podcasting, we need more, we

589
00:36:45,690 --> 00:36:49,560
need to be more flexible than
RSS. Okay, keep that word in

590
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:53,670
mind. This was talking about
the, with the some of the

591
00:36:53,670 --> 00:36:58,260
fundamental contradictions of
the things that are being said.

592
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,490
So with that in mind, he talks
about in in, in clip four about

593
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,810
what is RSS well, and as you
think about the reason that it's

594
00:37:06,810 --> 00:37:10,440
even a discussion, can you just
break down for some of the

595
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:14,790
audience why an RSS feed is a
material factor and how we even

596
00:37:14,790 --> 00:37:17,640
decide where to draw our lines?
Sure,

597
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:21,900
Unknown: well, RSS stands for
Really Simple Syndication. And

598
00:37:21,900 --> 00:37:24,180
that's primarily what it is, is
very flexible.

599
00:37:25,620 --> 00:37:27,030
Adam Curry: But we got to be
more flexible.

600
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,580
Dave Jones: Yes, we got to be
more flexible, but RSS is flex.

601
00:37:30,210 --> 00:37:33,930
So this, this becomes, you know,
there's a certain amount of word

602
00:37:33,930 --> 00:37:39,420
salad that happens here. And
it's this this fundamental

603
00:37:39,420 --> 00:37:45,570
difference here between the,
the, the podcast between the

604
00:37:45,570 --> 00:37:49,710
average digital advertising
people, and the actual people

605
00:37:49,710 --> 00:37:57,480
who are loyal to ad dollars and
brand brands, and the podcast,

606
00:37:57,570 --> 00:38:01,500
infrastructure and substrate,
people who are loyal to RSS and

607
00:38:01,500 --> 00:38:02,520
podcasting,

608
00:38:02,580 --> 00:38:04,560
Adam Curry: we were like
substrate scale, that's good.

609
00:38:04,650 --> 00:38:07,050
That's, that's a sexy word
substrate substrate

610
00:38:07,050 --> 00:38:09,270
Dave Jones: seems like an old
movie from like, the fifth

611
00:38:10,020 --> 00:38:11,490
Adam Curry: pod subs.

612
00:38:12,750 --> 00:38:17,700
Dave Jones: They and this, this
these, one had the, the

613
00:38:17,700 --> 00:38:21,270
substrate infrastructure people
have they have a loyalty to what

614
00:38:21,300 --> 00:38:27,570
podcasting is at its foundation.
That all sort of comes into play

615
00:38:27,570 --> 00:38:28,980
in clip five here,

616
00:38:29,070 --> 00:38:32,610
Unknown: it is not dynamic. It
doesn't come with a lot of data.

617
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,690
A lot of advertisers is you
know, far better than I used to

618
00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:40,470
dealing with rich data
environments. And podcasting has

619
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:45,420
some of that, but it doesn't
natively have all of that. But

620
00:38:45,420 --> 00:38:50,070
that is what this industry has
been built on. And yet, you

621
00:38:50,070 --> 00:38:54,030
know, I don't I don't know why
it can't or shouldn't evolve.

622
00:38:57,180 --> 00:39:00,330
Adam Curry: So how come Spotify
couldn't do it? Spotify had rich

623
00:39:00,330 --> 00:39:04,080
data. They knew they knew
exactly what people were

624
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,050
listening to. And how long why
couldn't Spotify make it? Why

625
00:39:07,050 --> 00:39:10,170
couldn't they pull it off?
Because this clearly, it's not

626
00:39:10,170 --> 00:39:13,470
just the RSS feed, it's got to
be a whole collection of things.

627
00:39:14,340 --> 00:39:17,820
Dave Jones: Yeah. And that and
that's the that's a great point.

628
00:39:17,820 --> 00:39:21,900
Because you have what what
they're saying is one thing and

629
00:39:21,900 --> 00:39:24,990
what's reality is something
different because it's like,

630
00:39:24,990 --> 00:39:29,760
well, advertisers are used to
rich data. So do you mean rich

631
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,720
data in the sense of Nielsen
ratings, because that's not very

632
00:39:33,720 --> 00:39:36,930
Adam Curry: rich. Now they're
talking about total total

633
00:39:36,930 --> 00:39:41,190
spying, connecting you with your
friends that you're on the same

634
00:39:41,190 --> 00:39:45,360
network Bluetooth proximity apps
that are tracking your your

635
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,480
finger moves, this is the kind
of data you know, data brokers,

636
00:39:48,690 --> 00:39:51,420
this is the kind of stuff
they're used to. In

637
00:39:51,420 --> 00:39:53,820
Dave Jones: the only people that
make big money in that game are

638
00:39:53,820 --> 00:39:58,470
Google. Nobody else may and
Facebook fails but he else makes

639
00:39:58,470 --> 00:40:03,420
humongous money in the ad word
in that arena, the the

640
00:40:03,450 --> 00:40:07,650
television arena where data is
not rich at all that people are

641
00:40:07,650 --> 00:40:12,000
making are making money there.
That's that's real. That's real

642
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,210
money being spent. And there's
no there's no data. I don't just

643
00:40:15,210 --> 00:40:17,730
watch that on the air and on the
air. And I have to report it to

644
00:40:17,730 --> 00:40:18,810
you in a coupon book.

645
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,740
Adam Curry: You know what's
interesting, at any moment, any

646
00:40:23,220 --> 00:40:30,480
podcast, app developer, Marco
fountain, anybody could create

647
00:40:30,930 --> 00:40:35,670
could put all kinds of tracking
stuff in their app, which would,

648
00:40:35,700 --> 00:40:41,850
which would give that app a huge
advantage? Over you know, over

649
00:40:41,850 --> 00:40:46,290
everybody else, and you can put
the SDKs into your app. It's

650
00:40:46,290 --> 00:40:50,430
amazing. You can do a replay
Exactly. See what what somebody

651
00:40:50,430 --> 00:40:53,010
was what they were tapping on
their screen. They'll know if

652
00:40:53,010 --> 00:40:54,870
they're hold, if they're
listening in bed, if they're

653
00:40:54,870 --> 00:40:57,720
walking, if they're driving in
their car, all this stuff is

654
00:40:57,720 --> 00:41:01,200
very normal for apps. Nobody
does that, to my knowledge, or

655
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:06,000
certainly is not selling that
rich data. Why not? What is it

656
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:10,260
about the substrate people that
we just don't do that? See, I'm

657
00:41:10,260 --> 00:41:14,190
serious. This is very
interesting. Is Are there no

658
00:41:14,190 --> 00:41:16,320
shysters out there? Who would
want to do this?

659
00:41:16,980 --> 00:41:19,800
Dave Jones: I think it's because
if I'm gonna stick my neck out,

660
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:24,330
and guess I think it's because
we sort of inherently know in

661
00:41:24,330 --> 00:41:29,250
the back of our mind that if we
did that, it would be a one shot

662
00:41:29,250 --> 00:41:37,110
deal. And then your audience
hates you. Yeah. Take the Money

663
00:41:37,110 --> 00:41:40,890
and Run option. You know what I
mean? Yeah. Because you because

664
00:41:40,890 --> 00:41:43,500
as soon as you do that, to your
to your customer base, they're

665
00:41:43,500 --> 00:41:47,910
out. They're not you. It's
you've changed the narrative on

666
00:41:47,910 --> 00:41:50,010
them. And they're not they're
not going to I mean, they're not

667
00:41:50,010 --> 00:41:50,520
going to get it.

668
00:41:50,580 --> 00:41:53,970
Adam Curry: I see almost every
week someone yelling at me, what

669
00:41:53,970 --> 00:41:58,410
is this podcasting? 2.0 these
apps give me ads. I know, bro,

670
00:41:58,410 --> 00:42:01,290
that's the podcast, you're
listening to? That. That's a guy

671
00:42:01,290 --> 00:42:06,060
who's giving you the ads? It's I
mean, advertising is not good.

672
00:42:06,750 --> 00:42:07,380
In

673
00:42:07,380 --> 00:42:11,010
Dave Jones: that manner. Yeah,
that's the you mean, you want to

674
00:42:11,010 --> 00:42:15,360
hear the pic money shot? Clip
six, when is it a podcast? And

675
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:20,430
when is it not? And where do you
think that should go? And

676
00:42:20,430 --> 00:42:24,840
Unknown: I don't care. I gotta I
don't care. You know, my

677
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:30,270
background is content and
audience and sales dollars Chase

678
00:42:30,330 --> 00:42:34,290
ears. So let's go find yours.
wherever they are. Figure the

679
00:42:34,290 --> 00:42:35,730
mechanics out. Okay,

680
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,610
Adam Curry: well, that's totally
fair. Totally fair, totally

681
00:42:38,610 --> 00:42:40,440
fair. Go do the criticism,

682
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:44,460
Dave Jones: but don't but but
the only criticism would be the

683
00:42:44,460 --> 00:42:49,680
enemy, even if it even is a
criticism is that's not a

684
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:53,310
podcast, that is not somebody
who is loyal to podcasting, and

685
00:42:53,310 --> 00:42:56,880
trying to make the podcast
industry know, into something

686
00:42:56,910 --> 00:42:59,550
into something bigger and
better. That is somebody who's

687
00:42:59,580 --> 00:43:03,600
in the advertising industry, and
trying to make the advertising

688
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,860
industry bigger and better. And
those are two different things.

689
00:43:07,860 --> 00:43:12,570
Because you, you do have people
whose jobs and livelihoods

690
00:43:12,570 --> 00:43:17,070
depend on podcasting, not
advertising, podcasting. And

691
00:43:17,070 --> 00:43:21,060
when you conflate the two terms,
it it can do real damage,

692
00:43:21,060 --> 00:43:24,060
because there it is a it
confuses the market.

693
00:43:24,090 --> 00:43:27,570
Adam Curry: Yeah. Well, I mean,
there's there's so much wrong

694
00:43:27,570 --> 00:43:30,780
with the market now. I mean,
imagine your immediate buyer and

695
00:43:30,780 --> 00:43:33,510
this, you know, and people
saying, hey, everything's down.

696
00:43:33,510 --> 00:43:36,180
Why is it down? Well, it's
because of the app is just

697
00:43:36,180 --> 00:43:39,060
downloading was not downloading
him. No, that's not it. It's

698
00:43:39,060 --> 00:43:42,690
just down. What is it up down?
It's like, there's no clear

699
00:43:42,690 --> 00:43:47,250
answers. Everybody's dancing
around it. It's just not. Yes,

700
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:52,260
you correct. You don't have
rich, great data that you have

701
00:43:52,290 --> 00:43:56,760
in other avenues. You just
don't. So it's all iOS 17

702
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,670
Dave Jones: fault. Let's just
play it. Clearly. Yeah, I

703
00:43:59,670 --> 00:44:01,620
remember Pearl Harbor. Yeah. It
was in

704
00:44:01,620 --> 00:44:03,630
Adam Curry: iOS 70. Yeah.

705
00:44:05,310 --> 00:44:10,020
Dave Jones: That I think I mean,
like the the download slowdown.

706
00:44:10,710 --> 00:44:15,630
That's an interesting phenomenon
to the OP is interesting to me,

707
00:44:15,630 --> 00:44:19,380
because John Spurlock said he's
not seeing that same slowdown on

708
00:44:19,380 --> 00:44:24,510
mp3 stats, which means which
tells me that the people I would

709
00:44:24,510 --> 00:44:31,950
say op three is biased towards
podcasters who are very hands on

710
00:44:31,950 --> 00:44:36,180
with their shows. You know, I
mean, they're, they're people.

711
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:40,050
They're probably people who are
very careful and considerate

712
00:44:40,050 --> 00:44:43,500
about the way they do their show
stats, they're not just going

713
00:44:43,500 --> 00:44:45,930
out. And if you're if you're
choosing Opie three, you've

714
00:44:45,930 --> 00:44:48,720
thought about it. Yes. And
you've probably thought about

715
00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:51,750
lots of stuff that relates to
your podcast, you're probably a

716
00:44:51,750 --> 00:44:57,000
very careful person in that
regard. So this tells me that

717
00:44:58,230 --> 00:45:02,790
that this general slowed down in
downloads across the board is

718
00:45:02,790 --> 00:45:06,840
happening outside of that sector
of people. Because it doesn't

719
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,900
seem to be happening for shows
that are on mp3. Alright.

720
00:45:09,990 --> 00:45:14,100
Interesting that that means that
there's there may be just a

721
00:45:14,100 --> 00:45:21,600
general falling off in either
listenership to that to the

722
00:45:21,660 --> 00:45:25,500
lower tier of shows or maybe
just fatigue on the part of

723
00:45:25,500 --> 00:45:30,900
podcasters that are starting to,
to bail out and put shows out at

724
00:45:30,900 --> 00:45:33,390
it at a smaller pace. I don't
know what

725
00:45:33,420 --> 00:45:36,300
Adam Curry: now, I heard
something interesting that, you

726
00:45:36,300 --> 00:45:40,800
know, how hosting companies have
to renew their cert, their IAB

727
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:44,190
certification before the end of
the year, or they know they

728
00:45:44,190 --> 00:45:51,120
won't be, quote unquote,
certified? What? Is it possible

729
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:53,580
that a lot of these companies
just like, well, there's not

730
00:45:53,580 --> 00:45:56,940
really a lot of money in
advertising anyway, we can give

731
00:45:56,940 --> 00:46:01,920
you you know, the numbers that
are compliant, but we're not

732
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:05,250
gonna what does it cost? What
does it what does it cost these

733
00:46:05,250 --> 00:46:08,970
days to? We get certified, I
thought

734
00:46:09,090 --> 00:46:11,010
Dave Jones: guards down with the
host is like, it was like,

735
00:46:11,070 --> 00:46:13,740
initially, it was like, 50
grand, yeah, but it's gone down

736
00:46:13,740 --> 00:46:16,590
since then. Right. And then they
give everybody a coupon

737
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:18,840
Adam Curry: for a drink.

738
00:46:20,910 --> 00:46:24,030
Dave Jones: You get everybody a
mate, you know, like, like, a

739
00:46:24,030 --> 00:46:27,420
gift card to like, drop the
price down to like, 12 or

740
00:46:27,420 --> 00:46:29,430
something like that. It's still
a lot of money 15

741
00:46:30,510 --> 00:46:33,960
Adam Curry: A lot of money and
made me look hosting companies,

742
00:46:33,990 --> 00:46:38,100
their business is very simple.
provide good hosting and an

743
00:46:38,100 --> 00:46:42,030
interface and a customer
support. Then if it's if it's

744
00:46:42,030 --> 00:46:46,380
going to cost them too much
money for not, you know. I don't

745
00:46:46,380 --> 00:46:49,890
know as Nathan Jesus 12 and a
half 1000 for a new member. Oh,

746
00:46:49,890 --> 00:46:55,530
they really took it down. 6250
for renewable non member. Oh, if

747
00:46:55,530 --> 00:46:59,670
you're not a member at 17, five
and 887 50. So that's a lot of

748
00:46:59,670 --> 00:47:02,790
money. It's realize a lot of
money, real money to no money.

749
00:47:02,820 --> 00:47:06,630
Dave Jones: What I don't the
hosting companies may be looking

750
00:47:06,630 --> 00:47:07,770
around and seeing that.

751
00:47:08,340 --> 00:47:11,310
Adam Curry: What's the point?
That's my point. Exactly.

752
00:47:12,330 --> 00:47:14,490
Dave Jones: Yeah. What's the if
So here, you can you can

753
00:47:14,490 --> 00:47:17,640
juxtapose this with the apple,
excuse me, not the apple with

754
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,970
the with the podcast slowdown.
For some reason that nobody

755
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:24,720
fully understands yet. All the
sudden droid downloads across

756
00:47:24,720 --> 00:47:27,300
the board just dropped 16 17%
Except

757
00:47:27,300 --> 00:47:31,620
Adam Curry: for Pocket Casts.
That went up. Yeah. I was that

758
00:47:31,620 --> 00:47:31,890
worried?

759
00:47:33,630 --> 00:47:37,470
Dave Jones: So if you have that,
if, if if global downloads can

760
00:47:37,470 --> 00:47:41,550
drop by 17%. And nobody knows
why, what what's the point of

761
00:47:41,550 --> 00:47:44,280
even having some sort of a
beast? Well, that's

762
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,280
Adam Curry: an excellent point.
That's how poor the data really

763
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:48,510
is. We don't even know why.

764
00:47:49,590 --> 00:47:53,940
Dave Jones: Yeah, what I would,
you know, as a, as an industry,

765
00:47:53,970 --> 00:47:58,230
everybody could say, well, we're
just we're doing it based on the

766
00:47:58,230 --> 00:48:02,160
way that the two point of the
last spec that we saw, we're

767
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:05,130
basing everything on that. And
that's good enough. Good.

768
00:48:05,220 --> 00:48:07,530
Adam Curry: Now this stuff has
never worked. I mean, they

769
00:48:07,530 --> 00:48:10,380
brought in Terry Semel into
YouTube. It's always when you

770
00:48:10,380 --> 00:48:12,840
bring the Hollywood people in
oh, we're going to now is going

771
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:17,400
to look, AOL. AOL bought Time
Warner. Come on. It's been going

772
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:20,040
on forever. Oh, yeah. Wait
decision, once we put the

773
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:23,700
technology with the content is
going to be great. No, it just

774
00:48:23,730 --> 00:48:27,810
it. And this is kind of good,
because everybody can now blame

775
00:48:27,810 --> 00:48:32,010
it on Kim Kardashian and the
Obamas. And Bruce Springsteen

776
00:48:32,010 --> 00:48:34,440
and the other, they can pretty
much blame it on everybody

777
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:39,570
except Joe Rogan. They can blame
all this, the Harry AND MEGAN

778
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:41,790
Oh, it's all their fault,
because, you know, Spotify

779
00:48:41,790 --> 00:48:45,360
burned money on them. That
that's, that's, I guess, the

780
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:47,490
upside of what they can do
anyway.

781
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,550
Dave Jones: Plus the escape.
Escape. Yeah, yeah. I thought.

782
00:48:51,420 --> 00:48:57,720
So I have a cron job that runs
every day in it. It sets feed,

783
00:48:58,980 --> 00:49:04,620
feed priority and popularity. So
this cron job runs on the

784
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:11,670
podcast index front end servers.
So the the front end API

785
00:49:11,670 --> 00:49:22,200
servers, they log every call for
90 days. And every every every

786
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:28,530
morning it the cron job runs and
looks at yesterday's log and

787
00:49:30,330 --> 00:49:37,680
tallies up for each feed that
was requested for episodes. Like

788
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:43,260
so if a if an app requested an
episode list using the episodes

789
00:49:43,260 --> 00:49:48,600
by feed ID and point and that
call came from a recognized

790
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,930
developer token that's in a list
that I've curated that I'm not

791
00:49:51,930 --> 00:49:55,650
going to say who's in but it's
you know, it's pod verse, you

792
00:49:55,650 --> 00:50:00,000
know, fountain it's it's the
standard it's it's developed

793
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:06,840
First who are writing apps that
we know are, are legitimate. So

794
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:10,200
if it meets those criteria, if
if one of those apps requested

795
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:17,190
episode list for a podcast feed,
it tallies those up and then

796
00:50:17,190 --> 00:50:22,620
says, okay, the feed popularity
needs to be bumped up for the

797
00:50:22,620 --> 00:50:26,040
feed. And the feed and or the
feed priority if it's not a pod

798
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:29,730
being enabled host needs to go
up. So in order, basically, its

799
00:50:29,730 --> 00:50:33,210
base is tracking all the time to
see what's being requested.

800
00:50:33,810 --> 00:50:37,200
What's being requested, so that
then it can begin to inform the

801
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:40,440
aggregators, the story can
reform, dry search about

802
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:43,200
popularity ranking, and it can
form the aggregate gators about

803
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:48,540
whether they need to pull that
feed more often. So that's a

804
00:50:48,540 --> 00:50:53,070
standard thing we've been doing.
I've never I've never really

805
00:50:53,070 --> 00:50:59,790
looked at that script. So I went
back and looked at it yesterday,

806
00:51:00,030 --> 00:51:03,270
just unlike, you know, wonder,
wonder how many feeds this?

807
00:51:04,350 --> 00:51:06,840
Adam Curry: What is this thing
doing here? This is Dave's AI.

808
00:51:07,230 --> 00:51:09,510
You let your AI run for a year?
Uh huh.

809
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:12,600
Dave Jones: And it just out of
curiosity, I'm like, Okay, a

810
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:18,450
little through some stats into
it. In, in a day in a 24 hour

811
00:51:18,450 --> 00:51:27,000
period, there were 35,169
individual podcast feeds that

812
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:27,900
were requested.

813
00:51:30,210 --> 00:51:33,030
Adam Curry: That individual
wants to be low. Yeah,

814
00:51:33,060 --> 00:51:34,230
individual ones.

815
00:51:34,740 --> 00:51:40,200
Dave Jones: Yes. Individual
distinct, unique podcast IDs. I

816
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:44,910
think that's pretty interesting.
So if we have 4.2 9 million

817
00:51:45,420 --> 00:51:49,860
shows in the index, yeah. And on
a in under 20, in a typical 24

818
00:51:49,860 --> 00:51:55,230
hour period, less than 40,000 of
those are actually being in sort

819
00:51:55,230 --> 00:51:58,620
of interrogated for their
episode list and their metadata.

820
00:51:59,700 --> 00:52:01,440
Adam Curry: I would look at
jeopardy, I would look at it

821
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:07,200
differently, I would say, look
at your 60 and 90 day, Episode

822
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:11,250
updates, which is around
400,000. So your almost 40,000

823
00:52:11,250 --> 00:52:15,840
will be 10%. That's how I would
look at it because this 4.2

824
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:19,890
million. Yeah, we know the
truth. We know, we know the

825
00:52:19,890 --> 00:52:24,120
truth. Podcasting is much
smaller than that. It really is.

826
00:52:24,450 --> 00:52:24,840
So

827
00:52:24,870 --> 00:52:27,270
Dave Jones: yeah, that's a good
look. So that out of the

828
00:52:27,630 --> 00:52:36,420
338,000, over, over 30 days,
roughly 10. Only about 10% of

829
00:52:36,420 --> 00:52:39,690
the of those shows that update
in 30 day period. Anyone

830
00:52:39,690 --> 00:52:40,080
listening

831
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:42,720
Adam Curry: to this where people
are listening to or require

832
00:52:42,750 --> 00:52:45,810
let's be fair, or requesting an
episode list?

833
00:52:46,980 --> 00:52:50,550
Dave Jones: And I think the our
our numbers conclusive about it

834
00:52:50,580 --> 00:52:56,430
are representing No, but I will
say that I mean, shows like, I

835
00:52:56,430 --> 00:53:01,980
mean, podcasts, apps, like pod
pod verse and fountain. In

836
00:53:02,010 --> 00:53:05,010
specifically those two have very
long, I mean, they have a lot of

837
00:53:05,100 --> 00:53:11,820
client of users. Yeah, lots of
users. And those. While this may

838
00:53:11,820 --> 00:53:18,270
not be wholly representative,
it's a pretty good number. I

839
00:53:18,270 --> 00:53:22,020
mean, I feel good about this
number that if you just step

840
00:53:22,020 --> 00:53:29,100
back and say okay, how many
shows do you think, are actually

841
00:53:29,100 --> 00:53:33,780
something that people listen to?
across across the board or

842
00:53:33,780 --> 00:53:43,620
globally? How many shows that if
I told, you know, we know, we

843
00:53:43,620 --> 00:53:44,790
know how many update,

844
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:49,560
Adam Curry: you'd have to give
me uniques per week, per month,

845
00:53:50,430 --> 00:53:54,570
then we need to know, we need to
know frequency of update of each

846
00:53:54,570 --> 00:54:01,410
of these individual shows. But
yeah. Yeah, I don't know. We'll

847
00:54:01,410 --> 00:54:05,220
Dave Jones: take take the 90 day
stat on the index 462,000. So

848
00:54:05,220 --> 00:54:07,320
that's how many shows that have
published an episode in the last

849
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:12,990
90 days. If, if even if you know
that number, am I okay? Well,

850
00:54:13,170 --> 00:54:15,390
those are how many those are how
many feeds that are publishing

851
00:54:15,390 --> 00:54:19,230
episode episodes? Well, then,
and we know there's some

852
00:54:19,230 --> 00:54:21,120
duplicates in there and that
kind of thing. So we know,

853
00:54:21,510 --> 00:54:27,750
there's a margin of error. But
if if you then say, if I want me

854
00:54:27,750 --> 00:54:31,170
to come at it this way, if I if
I said, if I told you if we were

855
00:54:31,170 --> 00:54:35,310
talking and I said, Hey, you
know what? I bet you the number

856
00:54:35,310 --> 00:54:40,410
of shows that people actually
listened to on a daily basis is

857
00:54:40,410 --> 00:54:43,560
less than 50,000. Would that
surprise you?

858
00:54:46,650 --> 00:54:49,500
Adam Curry: On that's only
across our apps.

859
00:54:51,150 --> 00:54:53,280
Dave Jones: I'm thinking across
the board.

860
00:54:53,910 --> 00:54:56,820
Adam Curry: Well, why because
this is only this is not. This

861
00:54:56,820 --> 00:54:58,740
is only our apps. I mean, you
think yeah,

862
00:54:58,740 --> 00:55:04,950
Dave Jones: no but our apps Ruth
showed 35,000 If I say 50,000 or

863
00:55:04,950 --> 00:55:11,700
less, I just have this gut
feeling that the number of shows

864
00:55:11,700 --> 00:55:15,180
that people actively tune into
and listen to on a daily basis

865
00:55:15,180 --> 00:55:18,930
across the globe is in the five
digit range.

866
00:55:19,170 --> 00:55:22,950
Adam Curry: Could be the could
be, and still a lot. Oh,

867
00:55:22,950 --> 00:55:25,140
Dave Jones: it's a it's a lot.
There's not a criticism saying

868
00:55:25,140 --> 00:55:28,110
that these could be it's a sort
of a real is a real reality

869
00:55:28,110 --> 00:55:28,950
check in a way?

870
00:55:30,180 --> 00:55:33,210
Adam Curry: Well, I don't know
if you can, if you can slice and

871
00:55:33,210 --> 00:55:36,630
dice it that way. Because, you
know, all of our apps have, you

872
00:55:36,630 --> 00:55:40,020
know, under combined probably
have under 1% market share of

873
00:55:40,050 --> 00:55:42,270
what people are using to listen
to podcasts.

874
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:46,200
Dave Jones: So, but it would,
but ours would be representative

875
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:49,200
of a whole, you know, because if
you take that you take the

876
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:53,880
audience that is let's say if if
pod verse has, if pod verse says

877
00:55:54,330 --> 00:56:02,070
10,000 10,000 users and Apple
podcasts has 10 million? Well,

878
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:09,120
the the range, the list of shows
that they that doesn't affect

879
00:56:09,150 --> 00:56:12,540
the number of users doesn't
necessarily mean that the range

880
00:56:12,540 --> 00:56:16,410
of shows are going to be
different. And so what you know,

881
00:56:16,410 --> 00:56:18,210
like what I'm saying, you're
just gonna have more downloads,

882
00:56:18,210 --> 00:56:20,220
but that doesn't mean you're
listening to more shows.

883
00:56:20,250 --> 00:56:23,880
Adam Curry: Okay. Yeah. Well,
also, this is, you know, this

884
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:26,730
data that you're talking about
is not download data. This is

885
00:56:26,730 --> 00:56:30,960
like someone actively is looking
for something as a real human

886
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:34,110
probably doing something. Yes.
Possibly,

887
00:56:34,110 --> 00:56:36,180
Dave Jones: I mean, that you
could say searches would be more

888
00:56:36,180 --> 00:56:38,550
of an indicator that this is
probably this is more like

889
00:56:38,550 --> 00:56:43,710
things that are actually there
would be initial subscriptions,

890
00:56:43,740 --> 00:56:50,250
or catch ups, aggregation help,
you know, things like that. I

891
00:56:50,250 --> 00:56:52,530
don't know, it's something I
want to look at over time, and

892
00:56:52,530 --> 00:56:54,960
just out of curiosity, not
because there's any, you know,

893
00:56:55,410 --> 00:57:00,690
immense value to it. But it's
just, it would not be shocking,

894
00:57:00,690 --> 00:57:04,860
if it's, if it's a five digit
number of how many shows people

895
00:57:06,030 --> 00:57:09,300
out of out of all these shows
that people actually listen to

896
00:57:09,300 --> 00:57:10,380
on a daily basis.

897
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:14,730
Adam Curry: And it wouldn't
surprise me. Yeah, 50,000, it

898
00:57:14,730 --> 00:57:18,480
wouldn't surprise me on a global
basis, I guess. Yeah. Because

899
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:21,660
Dave Jones: that's actually a
lot of shows. I mean, a 50,000

900
00:57:21,660 --> 00:57:25,920
shows a lot of podcast. That's a
lot of I mean, that's, that's,

901
00:57:26,070 --> 00:57:31,080
you know, a factor of, of 10
more television shows and stuff

902
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:36,120
than there are likely Yeah. So
you're already way you're that's

903
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:42,690
so much content that you're way
out on a limb already. So I

904
00:57:42,690 --> 00:57:45,000
don't know. It's just a point of
curiosity to me.

905
00:57:45,420 --> 00:57:51,540
Adam Curry: I have a couple
things on my list. One is pod

906
00:57:51,540 --> 00:57:56,700
roll. So you've been doing work
on that? Yeah. Do you want to

907
00:57:56,700 --> 00:57:58,110
share with the class?

908
00:58:00,210 --> 00:58:02,910
Dave Jones: Well, I'm trying to
put it into the I haven't had

909
00:58:02,910 --> 00:58:07,200
much coding time this way. But
I'm trying to put that into the

910
00:58:07,770 --> 00:58:11,820
the API calls them actually,
we're already generating the,

911
00:58:12,270 --> 00:58:18,120
the lists the JSON lists for
those, but now return them in

912
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:23,100
the, in the actual endpoints for
podcast, data. So like, when you

913
00:58:23,100 --> 00:58:25,860
request a feed, it would also
show you the pod roll. Okay.

914
00:58:25,890 --> 00:58:29,490
Okay. Right, or the pod roll
that that feed is producing, and

915
00:58:29,490 --> 00:58:30,000
it's bandwidth.

916
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:32,460
Adam Curry: And I guess the
question is, how will Daniel J.

917
00:58:32,460 --> 00:58:35,820
Lewis be able to use this to
create some magical stats that

918
00:58:35,820 --> 00:58:38,040
he can sell to people? That's

919
00:58:38,340 --> 00:58:41,130
Dave Jones: his job, as I'm not
doing his job for him? Right

920
00:58:41,130 --> 00:58:41,370
now?

921
00:58:41,460 --> 00:58:42,750
Adam Curry: I'm just curious if
you have any thoughts.

922
00:58:43,470 --> 00:58:47,730
Dave Jones: I mean, he, he can,
he can suck it in and then, you

923
00:58:47,730 --> 00:58:50,460
know, start started slicing and
dicing and the way he does, he's

924
00:58:50,460 --> 00:58:54,780
got it. If anybody needs more
stuff in here, like if you if

925
00:58:54,780 --> 00:58:58,140
you look at those lists, as you
said, Daniel, so it made me

926
00:58:58,140 --> 00:59:02,250
think of iTunes IDs. If people
need iTunes IDs in there, oh, I

927
00:59:02,250 --> 00:59:03,630
Adam Curry: see what you're
saying, Hey, can I hand that

928
00:59:03,630 --> 00:59:05,670
off? Yeah, let me

929
00:59:05,670 --> 00:59:07,890
Dave Jones: know. Because it any
the more data that's in there,

930
00:59:07,890 --> 00:59:10,230
the less requests they have,
they don't have to just turn

931
00:59:10,230 --> 00:59:14,250
around and hit the API to get
it. I'm also doing something for

932
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:20,880
John, John Booth over
transistor, he contacted me

933
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:23,910
about some, some stuff with POD
roll. So I'm doing some stuff

934
00:59:23,910 --> 00:59:26,970
for him. And I'll, I'll talk
about that. I think it's gonna

935
00:59:26,970 --> 00:59:31,710
be a new, there's gonna be a new
end point for just saying,

936
00:59:32,610 --> 00:59:38,640
Here's a batch of feed IDs. Give
me all the current metadata for

937
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:42,420
all of them. Yeah, and if I can
get that to work, right, it

938
00:59:42,420 --> 00:59:45,150
might also solve Daniels problem
because Daniel asked for the

939
00:59:45,150 --> 00:59:50,040
iTunes lookup endpoint support
multiples right? In a might be

940
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:53,340
able to combine those two. The
way it's funny the way so the

941
00:59:53,340 --> 00:59:59,010
way it works in our database, is
we have an apple table and then

942
00:59:59,010 --> 01:00:03,420
we have a newsfeeds table. Now
the news feeds table contains

943
01:00:03,450 --> 01:00:12,750
all the podcast feeds. And the
apple table contains metadata

944
01:00:12,750 --> 01:00:17,910
that is specific to what the way
this thing exists in apple. And

945
01:00:17,910 --> 01:00:20,040
then we have a linkage between
the two. So when there's an

946
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:25,680
iTunes ID in newsfeeds table, it
links to that record in the

947
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:31,770
Apple table. So it can get a
little weird because like, like

948
01:00:31,770 --> 01:00:35,340
the at the low level at the
underlying level, the where the

949
01:00:35,340 --> 01:00:38,670
endpoints call the low level
functions to actually get the

950
01:00:38,670 --> 01:00:42,030
stuff out of the database. It's
actually two different

951
01:00:42,030 --> 01:00:48,060
functions. So the podcast by
feed ID endpoint, calls a

952
01:00:48,060 --> 01:00:54,750
function called Get feeds by ID
three. And that just pulls does

953
01:00:54,750 --> 01:00:59,550
a it does a query on the news
feeds table with a whole bunch

954
01:00:59,550 --> 01:01:02,340
of joins for other tables to
bring in to point out the

955
01:01:02,370 --> 01:01:08,610
specific data, then, that if you
do pod the hit the API endpoint

956
01:01:08,610 --> 01:01:13,500
called podcast by iTunes ID, it
actually doesn't request on the

957
01:01:13,500 --> 01:01:18,480
Apple table and joins in all the
rest of it. So it's not

958
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:20,220
Adam Curry: quite a service.

959
01:01:21,450 --> 01:01:24,540
Dave Jones: Yes, just because
you can do something with like,

960
01:01:26,460 --> 01:01:28,740
just because you can make
something work on the normal

961
01:01:28,740 --> 01:01:32,550
side doesn't mean that it's just
a straight like copy paste over

962
01:01:32,550 --> 01:01:37,380
to the other like the the
sequels to SQL statements are a

963
01:01:37,380 --> 01:01:42,330
really very different. So it
takes like brainpower to, to

964
01:01:42,510 --> 01:01:45,090
say, Okay, this is what I'm
doing over here. And now for the

965
01:01:45,090 --> 01:01:48,930
iTunes ID endpoints, I've got to
convert that to this equivalent

966
01:01:48,930 --> 01:01:52,230
thing over here. It's not always
a straightforward is, is it?

967
01:01:53,610 --> 01:01:55,890
Adam Curry: Bringing up another
point, I want to make sure that

968
01:01:55,950 --> 01:02:00,990
Daniel and Sam are both heard
activity streams. This isn't

969
01:02:01,710 --> 01:02:05,910
when I hear someone saying no
one listens to me. Like, I hear

970
01:02:05,910 --> 01:02:08,430
you, I hear you. So I've
obviously I've looked up

971
01:02:08,430 --> 01:02:14,580
activity streams. This is a web
standard. So this is supposed to

972
01:02:14,580 --> 01:02:19,680
be the fix for everything. I'm
not understanding. Do you have

973
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:23,370
an opinion on this? Or, you
know, I know Sam has baked this

974
01:02:23,370 --> 01:02:26,700
into pod fans, and they've got
30 activity streams, which as

975
01:02:26,700 --> 01:02:30,300
far as I know, is like more like
a started kind of like web based

976
01:02:30,300 --> 01:02:30,810
stuff.

977
01:02:32,730 --> 01:02:37,500
Dave Jones: Yes, well, activity
streams is the activity streams

978
01:02:37,500 --> 01:02:42,360
is related to the JSON LD JSON
LD, which is a way to sort of

979
01:02:42,360 --> 01:02:54,090
schematized JSON. And bring is
sort of like a JSON LD is to is

980
01:02:54,090 --> 01:02:58,980
to JSON, sort of what XML was to
HTML.

981
01:03:00,180 --> 01:03:02,130
Adam Curry: Okay, gotcha. Yeah,
gotcha.

982
01:03:02,670 --> 01:03:04,770
Dave Jones: It's a lot. That's
not an you know that that

983
01:03:04,770 --> 01:03:07,920
analogy breaks down. But that's
about as close as I can get

984
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:12,720
right now. It's, it's a way to
take a schema. And say, because

985
01:03:12,750 --> 01:03:16,290
inherently, JSON is schema
lists, it's a serialization

986
01:03:16,290 --> 01:03:17,640
object serialization, right?

987
01:03:17,670 --> 01:03:19,500
Adam Curry: But but it's the
point here, because you know,

988
01:03:19,530 --> 01:03:22,680
this supposedly is some magic
potion. If everyone just did

989
01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:25,260
activity streams, we'd have
cross app comments, we have

990
01:03:25,260 --> 01:03:27,600
booster grams going back and
forth, and I just don't

991
01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:30,990
understand it. Is there, does
anyone run their own servers,

992
01:03:30,990 --> 01:03:34,080
their central servers, it just
everyone puts a file into their

993
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:37,290
feed? This is kind of the
information I'm not gonna I

994
01:03:37,290 --> 01:03:40,320
Dave Jones: mean, activity
streams, activity streams is an

995
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:43,500
activity pub, I think I've
mentioned there on the message

996
01:03:43,500 --> 01:03:45,720
on there, they're two sides of
the same coin. I mean, activity

997
01:03:45,720 --> 01:03:52,020
streams is the sort of the
baseline of the way activity pub

998
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:56,730
gets pushed around. So you can
say, you know, an AI activity

999
01:03:56,730 --> 01:04:02,820
pub defines a set of, of
endpoints and things like this,

1000
01:04:02,820 --> 01:04:06,000
where it's like, okay, you can
find this data here, you can

1001
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:09,120
find this other data here.
There's an inbox and outbox and

1002
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:13,590
actor. And here's where they
live. activity streams is the

1003
01:04:13,590 --> 01:04:20,640
actual protocol by which those
actions take place. So, I mean,

1004
01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:23,010
you really, it's hard to
separate the two from one

1005
01:04:23,010 --> 01:04:28,260
another. In the in, in the sense
of, like, what things look like

1006
01:04:28,260 --> 01:04:31,110
in the real world. When you're
interacting with Mastodon and

1007
01:04:31,110 --> 01:04:33,450
stuff, you're interacting with
activity pub and activity

1008
01:04:33,450 --> 01:04:41,880
streams at the same time. So
when do you know Sam's Sam's

1009
01:04:41,910 --> 01:04:45,240
took the same a similar approach
to what Benjamin Bellamy did

1010
01:04:45,780 --> 01:04:52,560
with Casta pod and said, Okay,
well, activity streams and

1011
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:57,870
activity. Pub are the social,
you know, the Open Social

1012
01:04:57,870 --> 01:05:02,010
standard, and there's a A
certain you know, object, verb

1013
01:05:02,010 --> 01:05:06,720
subject language that happens.
And that fits what we sort of do

1014
01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:11,790
in podcasting, it's a person is
a person, the actor, following

1015
01:05:11,850 --> 01:05:15,180
the act, you know, which is the
action, a podcast, which is the

1016
01:05:15,180 --> 01:05:20,790
subject, I mean, like this, the
model fits for what podcasting

1017
01:05:20,790 --> 01:05:24,090
is. So you can sort of take that
activity stream idea and lay it

1018
01:05:24,090 --> 01:05:29,760
on top of podcasting, and you
could see how it works. So

1019
01:05:29,760 --> 01:05:31,950
that's what Benjamin Bellamy did
with caste bodies, like let's

1020
01:05:31,950 --> 01:05:36,870
just embrace that, that, that
that model and build our thing

1021
01:05:36,870 --> 01:05:41,700
around activity streams in, but
then expose it with activity

1022
01:05:41,700 --> 01:05:44,580
pub, so that is compatible with
Mastodon and all these other

1023
01:05:44,580 --> 01:05:49,830
things. And, you know, Sam, Sam
did the same thing. And it's not

1024
01:05:49,830 --> 01:05:54,270
a bad idea. I mean, it's, it's
good. The bridge that I'm

1025
01:05:54,270 --> 01:05:58,800
building that I haven't had much
time to work on this past week.

1026
01:06:00,090 --> 01:06:04,950
As mean, it's just my goal is
just to get it initially

1027
01:06:04,950 --> 01:06:08,730
compatible with activity,
productivity pub, right. So

1028
01:06:08,730 --> 01:06:12,030
there's follow up. And excuse
me, bless,

1029
01:06:12,060 --> 01:06:15,000
Adam Curry: good. commuting
time. I'm sorry, I tried to get

1030
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:15,240
there.

1031
01:06:18,090 --> 01:06:23,520
Dave Jones: So, but but activity
streams, that that idea sort of

1032
01:06:23,520 --> 01:06:28,650
that model is, yeah, I mean, I
think it works. It's just a

1033
01:06:28,650 --> 01:06:30,120
matter of how you build it out.

1034
01:06:30,150 --> 01:06:32,220
Adam Curry: I mean, what's
interesting is that just cross

1035
01:06:32,220 --> 01:06:35,610
app comm it's just no app
developers care. They have they

1036
01:06:35,610 --> 01:06:38,070
have, you know, everyone has
some kind of implementation.

1037
01:06:38,070 --> 01:06:41,520
It's in there. There's no,
there's no, you know, seamless

1038
01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:44,700
way to do it. And it just
doesn't seem to be some things

1039
01:06:44,700 --> 01:06:48,660
you, you just can't force it. If
if if the app devs aren't doing

1040
01:06:48,660 --> 01:06:50,940
it, then it's just not gonna
happen. Doesn't matter what you

1041
01:06:50,940 --> 01:06:52,410
choose? Well,

1042
01:06:52,470 --> 01:06:55,080
Dave Jones: I get I get inspired
by stuff like this. I'm glad

1043
01:06:55,080 --> 01:07:01,500
that like Benjamin and Sam. Oh,
thank you very PP. Yeah, it's an

1044
01:07:01,590 --> 01:07:05,340
object actor, target asset
object actor subject. Yes,

1045
01:07:05,340 --> 01:07:10,770
target. So the, I mean, I liked
this idea. Because if it works,

1046
01:07:10,800 --> 01:07:15,960
and it becomes a really nice
experience, then then you have

1047
01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:21,960
you know, Sam has an app, cast a
pod is a platform, excuse me a

1048
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:27,930
hosting platform. Now we have to
now Yeah, and then you have then

1049
01:07:27,930 --> 01:07:31,590
you have the fediverse over here
that is commenting and

1050
01:07:31,590 --> 01:07:35,220
interacting with this stuff. Now
you have three good sets of

1051
01:07:35,220 --> 01:07:40,350
examples. And other apps can now
have this rich expand, you have

1052
01:07:40,350 --> 01:07:45,990
mini pub from John Spurlock. I
guess what I'm trying to say is

1053
01:07:45,990 --> 01:07:49,590
the the activity pub activity,
you know, world is getting built

1054
01:07:49,590 --> 01:07:54,270
around us. Like as, as we speak,
there's been a lot of people

1055
01:07:54,270 --> 01:07:57,990
that have, you know, been have
been kind of irritated by the

1056
01:07:57,990 --> 01:08:02,430
slowness of it. But it is
building itself. Yeah. And, and

1057
01:08:02,430 --> 01:08:06,120
you could choose if you look
around a year from now, and

1058
01:08:06,120 --> 01:08:09,960
you're like, Oh, this is
interesting. There's a lot of

1059
01:08:09,960 --> 01:08:13,320
pain. And this is a lot of stuff
out there. And you know, oh, it

1060
01:08:13,320 --> 01:08:17,580
only takes it only takes a
little bit a little bit of code

1061
01:08:17,580 --> 01:08:21,660
to and now all of a sudden, I've
opened up this interrupt between

1062
01:08:22,290 --> 01:08:28,200
my podcast app and and what
Sam's doing over here with with

1063
01:08:28,200 --> 01:08:32,220
boost, and I can follow this
action and I can, I can now

1064
01:08:32,220 --> 01:08:36,570
benefit from seeing things over
there. And oh, the bunch of

1065
01:08:36,570 --> 01:08:39,660
people subscribing to this
podcast on pod fans. I can I can

1066
01:08:39,660 --> 01:08:42,570
trend that in my thing or show
comments. Or

1067
01:08:43,469 --> 01:08:45,479
Adam Curry: to be honest, if I
just look at pod verse and I

1068
01:08:45,479 --> 01:08:48,959
look at our show, you know,
which I always make the route

1069
01:08:48,959 --> 01:08:54,449
post your your board meeting
post. And so you know from the

1070
01:08:54,449 --> 01:08:59,009
last show underneath you is
Spurlock and then Alex gates,

1071
01:08:59,039 --> 01:09:03,179
and then 33 over 10 or head. I
mean, this is all Mastodon

1072
01:09:03,179 --> 01:09:05,759
comments, but they show up in
the app. It's pretty cool. You

1073
01:09:05,759 --> 01:09:09,239
just have no way to interact
from the app. That's that's the

1074
01:09:09,239 --> 01:09:11,819
main that's the main problem I
have is like why can't I just

1075
01:09:11,819 --> 01:09:13,829
reply here and the app seems

1076
01:09:13,830 --> 01:09:16,140
Dave Jones: to end if you guys
see me if you go to our website

1077
01:09:16,140 --> 01:09:18,540
and go down and look at into an
episode and do

1078
01:09:18,570 --> 01:09:21,510
Adam Curry: Oh, yeah, of course
it all tons of comments.

1079
01:09:22,170 --> 01:09:24,930
Dave Jones: It is right there. I
mean, this is it's all there for

1080
01:09:24,930 --> 01:09:25,650
the taking.

1081
01:09:27,030 --> 01:09:28,950
Adam Curry: Yeah, when
everybody's busy, everybody's

1082
01:09:28,950 --> 01:09:30,150
busy. Everyone's busy.

1083
01:09:30,570 --> 01:09:33,210
Dave Jones: But But see, that's
my point is stuff is getting

1084
01:09:33,210 --> 01:09:38,130
built. It is. You know, it's
that and we knew this we you

1085
01:09:38,130 --> 01:09:41,520
know, we I think we talked about
this like a year ago, we started

1086
01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:45,840
talking about how the the low
hanging fruit was, was plucked.

1087
01:09:45,840 --> 01:09:47,250
Yeah. Now the

1088
01:09:47,250 --> 01:09:49,650
Adam Curry: hard now the harder
now the real work starts.

1089
01:09:50,429 --> 01:09:53,819
Dave Jones: Yeah, because the
hard stuff involves protocols,

1090
01:09:54,359 --> 01:09:56,969
and protocols. Protocols are
harder than markup.

1091
01:09:58,290 --> 01:10:01,500
Adam Curry: Well, it's a golden
age. For us in podcasting,

1092
01:10:02,130 --> 01:10:05,730
because we are the future being
built right now that everything

1093
01:10:05,730 --> 01:10:10,140
else is old hat. You it's all
gonna happen. It's all it's all

1094
01:10:10,170 --> 01:10:14,040
it's people will become more and
more aware. People already are I

1095
01:10:14,040 --> 01:10:16,680
mean, it's just podcasters need
to tell their audiences. That's

1096
01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:18,240
all. And it's happening.

1097
01:10:19,230 --> 01:10:21,360
Dave Jones: They have I've got
something on my list ask you

1098
01:10:21,360 --> 01:10:26,610
about. Okay. And this is the
image copyright thing with that

1099
01:10:27,180 --> 01:10:32,670
James had written up, you are an
expert in this area, because

1100
01:10:32,670 --> 01:10:37,020
you, you have six, did you bring
the first loss successful

1101
01:10:37,020 --> 01:10:40,170
lawsuit about Creative Commons?
or Yes, about you? Yes, sued

1102
01:10:40,170 --> 01:10:42,690
people in one when it comes to
image copyright infringement?

1103
01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:46,350
Specifically? Yes. Do you have
thoughts on this whole thing?

1104
01:10:48,390 --> 01:10:51,510
Adam Curry: If that's not quite
the same as the as the issue

1105
01:10:51,510 --> 01:10:57,630
with the Creative Commons
lawsuit that I mounted. This is

1106
01:10:57,630 --> 01:11:02,820
very unique. The United States
has smartly, I think, a whole

1107
01:11:02,820 --> 01:11:07,380
bunch of protections for exactly
this. I mean, what this reminded

1108
01:11:07,380 --> 01:11:12,150
me of, and, you know, James, got
it. And we had a little back and

1109
01:11:12,150 --> 01:11:16,140
forth. Because, you know, in
Australia, I guess there's a lot

1110
01:11:16,140 --> 01:11:18,870
of things you don't have, and
one of them is, you know, a very

1111
01:11:18,870 --> 01:11:22,440
clear way for, you know, a
copyright copyright takedown,

1112
01:11:22,440 --> 01:11:26,340
there's a process. You know,
we're, we're members, so, you

1113
01:11:26,340 --> 01:11:29,580
know, like six bucks a year. And
then if someone finds something

1114
01:11:29,580 --> 01:11:34,140
that we're surfacing, and it's
copyrighted, you know, I would

1115
01:11:34,140 --> 01:11:36,660
personally say, hey, once you go
over those guys, because they're

1116
01:11:36,660 --> 01:11:39,360
posting it, but if you want,
we'll take it down, you know, no

1117
01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:42,060
problem. And there's no, there's
no lawsuit involved. What this

1118
01:11:42,060 --> 01:11:46,320
really reminded me of, is, there
was a guy who worked for me, my,

1119
01:11:46,440 --> 01:11:51,600
my company thinks new ideas. And
this is in the 90s for what's

1120
01:11:51,600 --> 01:11:56,130
his name, but doesn't actually
doesn't matter. And he became

1121
01:11:57,180 --> 01:12:01,860
incredibly wealthy. In the porn
business. He had.

1122
01:12:02,370 --> 01:12:04,230
Dave Jones: I've heard you've
talked about this guy. Yeah, he

1123
01:12:04,230 --> 01:12:05,760
had moved to like LA, he had

1124
01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:08,460
Adam Curry: Malibu he had the
house in Malibu. He had the

1125
01:12:08,670 --> 01:12:14,010
Ferraris he had, you know, his
wife was riding horses all day.

1126
01:12:14,250 --> 01:12:17,850
And they had, like, the real
upscale porn,

1127
01:12:18,030 --> 01:12:20,850
Dave Jones: by the end of
Bitcoin was a Bitcoin, no, no,

1128
01:12:20,850 --> 01:12:23,220
no, no, real upscale

1129
01:12:23,280 --> 01:12:28,440
Adam Curry: porn, tie end, high
end stuff, like beautifully

1130
01:12:28,440 --> 01:12:32,490
shot, you know, etc, beautiful
models, the whole thing. And,

1131
01:12:33,090 --> 01:12:35,880
and I was just, I'm just talking
about that. And he kind of

1132
01:12:35,880 --> 01:12:41,310
explains his business, which is
not really selling porn to

1133
01:12:41,310 --> 01:12:46,560
people. It's copyright lawsuits.
And the way it would work is, if

1134
01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:50,700
someone had downloaded usually a
torrent or a movie from some

1135
01:12:50,700 --> 01:12:55,410
file, you know, they they would
be snooping IP addresses and

1136
01:12:55,410 --> 01:12:58,860
boom, they'd send you a note and
say, Hey, you clearly downloaded

1137
01:12:58,860 --> 01:13:03,930
this porn. It's ours and $5,000,
or we're going to sue you, and

1138
01:13:03,930 --> 01:13:06,570
you really don't want that to be
out in public, do you? And

1139
01:13:06,570 --> 01:13:11,010
that's how they made their
money. No way. Yes. That's how

1140
01:13:11,010 --> 01:13:15,810
they made their money. And a lot
of it because everyone's like, I

1141
01:13:15,810 --> 01:13:18,900
mean, it's kind of the, you
know, these days is a funny one,

1142
01:13:18,900 --> 01:13:22,410
once you get an email says, I
saw you I've hijacked your

1143
01:13:22,410 --> 01:13:25,050
computer. I saw what you were
doing now. Are there anybody

1144
01:13:25,050 --> 01:13:28,740
give me a Bitcoin? Yeah, so
we've all seen that. But this

1145
01:13:28,770 --> 01:13:32,160
this was real. I mean, they
would basically blackmail and

1146
01:13:32,160 --> 01:13:36,960
then top notch lawyers who would
do this all day long. You know,

1147
01:13:36,960 --> 01:13:41,310
do 10 a day, no more has 50,000
bucks, and people would do it

1148
01:13:41,310 --> 01:13:43,620
like, Oh, crap, you know, I
don't want anybody to know that

1149
01:13:43,620 --> 01:13:47,940
I was wrong. Especially not that
porn, you know, whatever. Yeah,

1150
01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:52,890
so that it wreaked a bit of that
to me. Now, it was for I

1151
01:13:52,890 --> 01:13:55,950
realized it was 450 Australian
dollars, like Mach Come on.

1152
01:13:55,950 --> 01:13:57,270
That's like a hammer. 20

1153
01:13:57,270 --> 01:14:00,360
Dave Jones: bucks. It's like a
Big Mac. Yeah. Yeah. That's,

1154
01:14:00,390 --> 01:14:01,440
that's an Andrew Jackson.

1155
01:14:02,220 --> 01:14:06,270
Adam Curry: So and obviously, I
think it's good that the James

1156
01:14:06,270 --> 01:14:11,970
wrote this up. I mean, it's,
this is this is not something

1157
01:14:11,970 --> 01:14:17,580
that happens in America and I
guess, bod, pod news is a LLC is

1158
01:14:17,580 --> 01:14:22,050
a US company. So he got out of
it that way. But you know,

1159
01:14:22,050 --> 01:14:25,350
there's all kinds of to me, this
is just a shyster. And I would

1160
01:14:25,350 --> 01:14:27,420
have been like, oh, yeah, I
really want you to come and see.

1161
01:14:27,420 --> 01:14:30,240
I don't care. I mean, we've had
when we had that guy who was

1162
01:14:30,240 --> 01:14:33,930
like, I'm representing Fox News,
and you're breaking copyright.

1163
01:14:33,930 --> 01:14:36,630
And I said, Okay, boat King,
just show me how you represent

1164
01:14:36,630 --> 01:14:39,150
Fox News. He never came back
with that. And then he come

1165
01:14:39,150 --> 01:14:43,470
back, you know, some some time
later. Like, I You gotta get

1166
01:14:43,470 --> 01:14:46,560
this. This is this is no
copyright violation. And we're

1167
01:14:46,560 --> 01:14:48,690
happy to take it down. But you
got to show me that you actually

1168
01:14:48,690 --> 01:14:52,320
represent the owner of this
work. And I don't know how we

1169
01:14:52,320 --> 01:14:55,290
resolve that. But he went away.
He never did. He's never came

1170
01:14:55,290 --> 01:14:58,530
back. He just gave up on us. So
there's a lot of the shysters

1171
01:14:58,530 --> 01:14:59,730
out there. Well,

1172
01:14:59,730 --> 01:15:04,950
Dave Jones: it's Like, is it a?
Is it a lid? You know that this

1173
01:15:04,980 --> 01:15:13,980
does that comes down to? Is it
legal? Yes. Is it ethical? No. I

1174
01:15:13,980 --> 01:15:19,050
mean, like this is not legal
doesn't mean that it's ethical

1175
01:15:19,050 --> 01:15:22,920
Adam Curry: doesn't make the
world go round. Porn porn and IP

1176
01:15:22,920 --> 01:15:25,590
addresses makes the world go
round. That's how you blast in

1177
01:15:25,590 --> 01:15:29,250
Malibu. That's how you get the
place of Malibu. So that

1178
01:15:29,250 --> 01:15:31,260
Dave Jones: whole thing, that
whole scam, though, that has

1179
01:15:31,260 --> 01:15:36,450
evolved to actual recording of
things now subnet that because,

1180
01:15:36,450 --> 01:15:41,130
uh, you know, I do cybersecurity
a lot for my day job. And a

1181
01:15:41,130 --> 01:15:44,850
recent recent thing that I was
the conference that I was in was

1182
01:15:44,850 --> 01:15:48,390
talking about how this that
whole scam where you get the

1183
01:15:48,390 --> 01:15:51,780
letter saying, I you know, I got
pictures of you, you know, that

1184
01:15:51,810 --> 01:15:55,080
that has evolved to where now
it's a little bit of a

1185
01:15:55,080 --> 01:15:59,730
combination between pig
butchering, and that so now you

1186
01:15:59,730 --> 01:16:07,170
get contacted, and they're like,
in some fake hot girl will chat

1187
01:16:07,170 --> 01:16:11,580
you up right lot for a while and
get you to actually record

1188
01:16:11,580 --> 01:16:14,910
yourself. I don't know, you
know, wagon or whatever and send

1189
01:16:14,910 --> 01:16:15,900
it to to

1190
01:16:16,110 --> 01:16:19,320
Adam Curry: her him and this is
going on at your office. No,

1191
01:16:19,650 --> 01:16:22,650
Dave Jones: no, no, no, no, no,
no, no, this is this is the new

1192
01:16:22,650 --> 01:16:25,860
global scan. Oh, okay. So then
in his kitchen, you know who

1193
01:16:25,860 --> 01:16:28,410
it's catching? Of course, it's
catching teenage boy. Yes,

1194
01:16:28,440 --> 01:16:34,620
obviously. And they, they record
you? And or excuse me, you

1195
01:16:34,620 --> 01:16:37,890
record yourself and send it to
them like a dick pic type thing?

1196
01:16:37,920 --> 01:16:41,250
Oh, good. Then they're like, oh,
you know, check this out. I'm

1197
01:16:41,250 --> 01:16:43,410
gonna send this to all your
friends on Facebook unless you

1198
01:16:43,440 --> 01:16:48,420
give me $200 In the $200 is
specifically

1199
01:16:50,160 --> 01:16:52,890
Adam Curry: is what is what they
think that kid can afford? Yes,

1200
01:16:52,920 --> 01:16:55,290
Dave Jones: exactly. They're
like, Okay, we can't do so much

1201
01:16:55,290 --> 01:16:59,070
that they're that they're gonna
freak out and not be able to get

1202
01:16:59,070 --> 01:17:01,530
the money we do just enough
where they could probably scrape

1203
01:17:01,530 --> 01:17:05,490
it together and send it to us.
And there was one example of a

1204
01:17:05,490 --> 01:17:08,700
guy that got arrested it was
doing this scam. He was making

1205
01:17:08,730 --> 01:17:13,230
millions off this. I mean,
whatever in like 100 a day.

1206
01:17:13,440 --> 01:17:13,830
Whenever

1207
01:17:13,830 --> 01:17:16,350
Adam Curry: I get any of those
emails I send it I reply back.

1208
01:17:16,380 --> 01:17:18,690
You owe me a Bitcoin. Have you
seen that thing? It's got an

1209
01:17:18,690 --> 01:17:27,120
elbow. Give me a break. You owe
me for looking at it. No

1210
01:17:27,120 --> 01:17:32,730
copyright owner. I'm not that
sick. All right, I have first of

1211
01:17:32,730 --> 01:17:35,370
all, thank you Dame Jennifer for
registering modern podcast

1212
01:17:35,370 --> 01:17:38,760
apps.com. She heard me saying
I'm boost the grand ball to

1213
01:17:38,760 --> 01:17:41,640
modern podcast app. And she's
gonna go register that thank

1214
01:17:41,640 --> 01:17:48,030
you. Of course, that forwards to
our app section chyron dear old

1215
01:17:48,030 --> 01:17:52,290
chyron has an issue with with a
Shem. And this was an

1216
01:17:52,290 --> 01:17:55,980
interesting and I finally dug
into it like okay, now I

1217
01:17:55,980 --> 01:18:02,790
understand what he's talking
about. So he used for his buzz

1218
01:18:02,850 --> 01:18:09,420
sprout feed for the value block
he used fountain. And I guess so

1219
01:18:09,420 --> 01:18:12,180
fountain as the Shem, which is
basically the same thing as the

1220
01:18:12,180 --> 01:18:15,630
podcaster wallet with the
difference. And I don't know if

1221
01:18:15,630 --> 01:18:18,600
you can do that with the podcast
or wallet.com. But with fountain

1222
01:18:18,600 --> 01:18:24,900
you can set value blocks per
episode. Correct. Did you know

1223
01:18:24,900 --> 01:18:25,320
this?

1224
01:18:27,390 --> 01:18:29,130
Dave Jones: In fountain? Yes, I

1225
01:18:29,130 --> 01:18:32,070
Adam Curry: did. Yes. So they're
writing to the to I guess they

1226
01:18:32,070 --> 01:18:35,490
have write permissions. And
they'll write b or whatever

1227
01:18:35,490 --> 01:18:38,880
splits chyron wants per episode,
they'll write that to the value

1228
01:18:38,880 --> 01:18:39,270
block.

1229
01:18:40,380 --> 01:18:42,570
Dave Jones: is they have a party
there in the partner APIA.

1230
01:18:42,660 --> 01:18:46,920
Adam Curry: Right, exactly. So
now chyron wants to move. He

1231
01:18:46,920 --> 01:18:51,900
wants to move his feed. But and
I guess he wants to move to a

1232
01:18:51,900 --> 01:18:55,800
host that has you know that has
it all native in the feed? Now

1233
01:18:55,800 --> 01:19:00,600
he's stuck. So the question is,
why was he stuck? Because he

1234
01:19:00,600 --> 01:19:04,050
doesn't he doesn't have a feed
that he doesn't have the

1235
01:19:04,050 --> 01:19:07,530
information. There's no feed
that he can look at even and

1236
01:19:07,530 --> 01:19:10,950
say, Oh, this is this is all the
value blocks I had for every

1237
01:19:10,950 --> 01:19:11,850
single episode.

1238
01:19:12,360 --> 01:19:15,660
Dave Jones: It would be in the
index. Yeah. Yes. But

1239
01:19:15,660 --> 01:19:18,000
Adam Curry: then but he has to
recreate every single one of

1240
01:19:18,000 --> 01:19:22,590
those one by one. He needs to he
needs to do that anyway, right.

1241
01:19:22,770 --> 01:19:26,910
You know, he wants to so his
question is, can he export a

1242
01:19:26,910 --> 01:19:30,420
feed that has all the value
blog, let's just say for

1243
01:19:30,420 --> 01:19:34,500
argument's sake, he wants to
self host Okay, all right. So,

1244
01:19:34,500 --> 01:19:39,600
he needs a feed that has all of
his value blocks in there should

1245
01:19:39,600 --> 01:19:40,410
that be certainly

1246
01:19:40,410 --> 01:19:42,690
Dave Jones: can do a feed so
they can do a feed import?

1247
01:19:42,720 --> 01:19:46,770
Adam Curry: Correct. So is that
something that we should offer?

1248
01:19:48,600 --> 01:19:51,810
Which by the way is is an intro
is an interesting feature, you

1249
01:19:51,810 --> 01:19:56,070
know, download your feed as it
is from the index is

1250
01:19:56,070 --> 01:19:56,580
interesting.

1251
01:19:58,830 --> 01:20:01,110
Dave Jones: That's an that is, I

1252
01:20:01,110 --> 01:20:03,600
Adam Curry: mean, especially
let's say your host blows up and

1253
01:20:03,600 --> 01:20:08,310
just goes away or whatever, I
have a perpetual backup, or is

1254
01:20:08,850 --> 01:20:10,980
that something fountain should
provide since they're providing

1255
01:20:10,980 --> 01:20:12,210
the shim functionality?

1256
01:20:14,280 --> 01:20:16,680
Dave Jones: Well, I mean, I
guess ideally found sheets

1257
01:20:16,710 --> 01:20:19,500
should provide it. But that's,
you know, we're,

1258
01:20:20,070 --> 01:20:23,430
Adam Curry: we're first we'd
like to facilitate. Yeah,

1259
01:20:23,430 --> 01:20:25,140
Dave Jones: I mean, we're good.
We're good guys.

1260
01:20:26,250 --> 01:20:29,490
Adam Curry: Speak for yourself.
Dave Jones. You owe me five

1261
01:20:29,490 --> 01:20:31,440
grand. Hey, I saw your IP
address.

1262
01:20:33,090 --> 01:20:37,710
Dave Jones: Yeah, yes. Good for
you. Yeah, I mean, we could do

1263
01:20:37,710 --> 01:20:43,500
that. Yeah, that'd be we could
we could export an XML of just

1264
01:20:43,500 --> 01:20:49,830
sort of the basic, sort of,
like, reconstruct a feed. If you

1265
01:20:49,830 --> 01:20:53,010
need, you know, like, hey, I
need a feed of this, right?

1266
01:20:53,220 --> 01:20:55,530
Yeah, we could, we could do
that. I mean, I can build it.

1267
01:20:55,560 --> 01:20:58,830
Adam Curry: Which brings me to
my final point for this board

1268
01:20:58,830 --> 01:21:03,210
meeting. No. OPML. And, um,

1269
01:21:03,270 --> 01:21:05,070
Dave Jones: are you gonna, are
you gonna? Are you gonna bust my

1270
01:21:05,070 --> 01:21:06,030
chops for No,

1271
01:21:06,060 --> 01:21:07,890
Adam Curry: no, no, no, no, I'm
gonna, I'm gonna ask you a

1272
01:21:07,890 --> 01:21:11,550
question, a philosophical
question. Oh, my favorite can so

1273
01:21:11,550 --> 01:21:18,090
OPML is the most misunderstood
format in the world. affirmed.

1274
01:21:18,150 --> 01:21:22,740
Yes. And, and this, and this
kind of came to me when I saw

1275
01:21:23,640 --> 01:21:30,180
Christopher icing who he was
publishing an OPML file of the,

1276
01:21:30,180 --> 01:21:32,880
you know, a day's worth of pod
pings, which I'm like, this is

1277
01:21:32,880 --> 01:21:38,910
cool. So I go to import that
OPML in my freedom controller,

1278
01:21:38,910 --> 01:21:42,630
and it basically just shows me a
whole list of empty links,

1279
01:21:42,630 --> 01:21:48,000
there's nothing in there. And
OPML has been OPML is, which is

1280
01:21:48,000 --> 01:21:51,120
outline processor Markup
Language. If people follow the

1281
01:21:51,120 --> 01:21:57,060
spec, it is a very powerful,
powerful format that we could

1282
01:21:57,060 --> 01:22:02,580
use for so much more than just
subscription lists. You know,

1283
01:22:02,580 --> 01:22:11,040
I'm saying, and you could export
lots of basically your data. You

1284
01:22:11,040 --> 01:22:13,620
know, it was like the idea of
take your data with you, it will

1285
01:22:13,620 --> 01:22:17,670
be much more than just your,
than just your subscriptions. It

1286
01:22:17,670 --> 01:22:21,510
could be, you know, your, your
wallets. It could be all kinds

1287
01:22:21,510 --> 01:22:24,870
of stuff we could put in there.
And there's, you know, I think

1288
01:22:24,870 --> 01:22:28,050
you and I have always seen
future possibilities for OPML as

1289
01:22:28,050 --> 01:22:33,750
a format for all kinds of social
activities. Yes. Is it worth

1290
01:22:33,990 --> 01:22:36,900
telling everybody please go look
at the spec and do it right. Or

1291
01:22:36,900 --> 01:22:39,300
is it is there so much
misinformation out there that

1292
01:22:39,300 --> 01:22:40,350
it'll just never happen?

1293
01:22:41,400 --> 01:22:42,540
Dave Jones: Well, he's doing it
wrong,

1294
01:22:42,570 --> 01:22:46,800
Adam Curry: everybody, everybody
does it wrong. I mean, if I if I

1295
01:22:46,860 --> 01:22:51,330
take any, any OPML export from
any app, and I want to import it

1296
01:22:51,330 --> 01:22:55,800
into a proper OPML Outliner,
which never works.

1297
01:22:57,900 --> 01:22:59,880
Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah, you're
right. I mean,

1298
01:23:01,260 --> 01:23:03,630
Adam Curry: never will. Not a
single one of them.

1299
01:23:07,290 --> 01:23:11,970
Dave Jones: I mean, OPML is,
people. The biggest issue with

1300
01:23:11,970 --> 01:23:17,580
OPML is that it's married to RSS
in a way that's wrong. People

1301
01:23:17,580 --> 01:23:21,570
think that OPML is just an RSS
subscription list. Yeah, that's

1302
01:23:21,570 --> 01:23:25,080
right. It'd be a Mel's not it's
not it's OPML is its own thing.

1303
01:23:25,080 --> 01:23:29,280
It existed before. RSS
subscription lists were a thing.

1304
01:23:29,490 --> 01:23:33,360
Our sister scription lists were
just a use case for OPML. But

1305
01:23:33,360 --> 01:23:38,370
OPML itself is, is a completely
independent self self says, you

1306
01:23:38,370 --> 01:23:45,210
know, sufficient markup
language. And I don't know, I

1307
01:23:45,210 --> 01:23:49,890
mean, I don't know where the I
don't know where to put that.

1308
01:23:50,550 --> 01:23:52,770
Adam Curry: I just wanted to
bring it up, you know, because

1309
01:23:52,800 --> 01:23:55,980
I'll tell you, here's what I
find with OPML. I do all my show

1310
01:23:55,980 --> 01:24:00,600
notes. In an outliner, on the
freedom controller, I publish an

1311
01:24:00,630 --> 01:24:04,860
HTML, and I publish an OPML. And
because I've consistently for

1312
01:24:04,860 --> 01:24:09,780
about 10 years, published an
OPML being at.io exists, you

1313
01:24:09,780 --> 01:24:12,540
know, there's been search
engines built. And if you look

1314
01:24:12,540 --> 01:24:16,560
at if you look at an OPML file,
from no agenda, as an example,

1315
01:24:16,710 --> 01:24:22,170
from clips, to articles, offline
versions of articles, all of it

1316
01:24:22,170 --> 01:24:26,760
is all beautifully organized in
an XML format happens to be OPML

1317
01:24:27,120 --> 01:24:31,620
it's collapsible, it's such a
rich format. There's so much

1318
01:24:31,620 --> 01:24:35,640
that people could do with it.
And I don't know maybe, maybe

1319
01:24:35,640 --> 01:24:39,240
it's that that that train has
left the station. I don't know.

1320
01:24:39,270 --> 01:24:41,730
I've always loved it. I've
always thought that's so cool.

1321
01:24:42,630 --> 01:24:43,080
You know?

1322
01:24:44,070 --> 01:24:49,050
Dave Jones: Yeah, ever when we
need us, you know, we just need

1323
01:24:49,050 --> 01:24:54,210
the sheer Europian mail for for
podcasting again, and that's

1324
01:24:54,210 --> 01:24:59,430
probably something that because,
well, this you know what, I'm

1325
01:24:59,430 --> 01:25:00,210
gonna put that on If

1326
01:25:01,680 --> 01:25:05,070
Adam Curry: we put in, I don't
know, eight years worth of work

1327
01:25:05,580 --> 01:25:09,480
into the freedom controller,
eight years worth, and we had s

1328
01:25:09,480 --> 01:25:15,390
OPML, we had this whole social
construct, which, which

1329
01:25:15,420 --> 01:25:20,310
integrates seamlessly with RSS
feeds, it updates automatically

1330
01:25:20,310 --> 01:25:23,490
when there's an update from
from, you know, an RSS feed,

1331
01:25:23,490 --> 01:25:28,380
which, you know, is inherently
wasn't even a podcast feed, you

1332
01:25:28,380 --> 01:25:31,320
know, just a blog post. I mean,
there's so much beauty in there.

1333
01:25:32,310 --> 01:25:32,790
That is

1334
01:25:32,790 --> 01:25:34,680
Dave Jones: going to be my that
is going to be my Christmas

1335
01:25:34,680 --> 01:25:42,330
present to you as a share your
OPML endpoint in the API. Okay,

1336
01:25:42,360 --> 01:25:45,840
let's, let's do it. Let's do it.
Let's to, let's do that. Here's,

1337
01:25:45,870 --> 01:25:49,950
here's how we could do it. We
make it we make it where we it

1338
01:25:49,950 --> 01:25:56,490
will accept an OPML file. So
you're in your in, you're in pod

1339
01:25:56,490 --> 01:26:02,520
fans, and you and you export
your feed list and want to in an

1340
01:26:02,520 --> 01:26:05,850
option can pop up and say, Do
you want to share this

1341
01:26:05,850 --> 01:26:10,770
anonymized feed list with the
podcast index? There you go. We

1342
01:26:10,770 --> 01:26:15,930
say yes, they send this they
send us the XML through through

1343
01:26:15,930 --> 01:26:20,460
an endpoint post opera post
action. Uh huh. We take it and

1344
01:26:20,460 --> 01:26:27,690
we interpret it. We decode the
the OPML into a pod role.

1345
01:26:29,940 --> 01:26:35,820
Basically, we save the OPML. But
then we but we treat it as a pod

1346
01:26:35,820 --> 01:26:40,050
role. So that you so it's a way
for people to share their

1347
01:26:40,050 --> 01:26:41,070
subscription list

1348
01:26:41,100 --> 01:26:44,520
Adam Curry: I got I like it. I
like it. What do you think? I

1349
01:26:44,520 --> 01:26:48,510
like? Is that my Christmas
present? Yeah. Could I have that

1350
01:26:48,510 --> 01:26:51,300
I have the sweater. Still 2024

1351
01:26:51,570 --> 01:26:54,780
Dave Jones: Next. Next
Christmas. already sent you your

1352
01:26:54,780 --> 01:26:57,300
Christmas razor for this year.
You did you get it yet?

1353
01:26:57,450 --> 01:27:01,110
Adam Curry: Yeah. You actually.
Now I feel like it's like a

1354
01:27:01,110 --> 01:27:03,150
heel. You sent me a Christmas
present? Well,

1355
01:27:03,150 --> 01:27:05,100
Dave Jones: that's my strategy
every year is to send you one

1356
01:27:05,100 --> 01:27:06,060
and make you feel like crap.

1357
01:27:06,090 --> 01:27:08,490
Adam Curry: Well worked again. I
haven't even received it. And I

1358
01:27:08,490 --> 01:27:12,240
feel like crap. I feel like crap
in general today, just cuz I'm

1359
01:27:12,240 --> 01:27:15,480
sick. And now you've made me
feel even sicker. Thanks, nuts

1360
01:27:15,480 --> 01:27:18,720
and everybody else and lots of
Christmas presents. Yes, you do.

1361
01:27:18,750 --> 01:27:20,580
I know. You're good at that.
You're

1362
01:27:20,580 --> 01:27:22,500
Dave Jones: gonna like it. I
just hope you have a DVD player.

1363
01:27:24,120 --> 01:27:25,980
Adam Curry: Yeah, I got I got
something that yeah, I got a

1364
01:27:25,980 --> 01:27:29,310
computer that will play that.
Can't wait. Okay. Can't wait to

1365
01:27:29,310 --> 01:27:32,610
see what you've dug up. Now.
Dave Jones. As

1366
01:27:32,610 --> 01:27:36,780
Dave Jones: long as you get a
DVD player good. Yes. I do. I

1367
01:27:36,780 --> 01:27:39,990
guess now porn is not to porn
from your guest premiere, buddy.

1368
01:27:40,020 --> 01:27:41,670
Okay. All right. Good. Good.

1369
01:27:41,880 --> 01:27:45,450
Adam Curry: Because you get sued
for that. $5,000 That's how it

1370
01:27:45,450 --> 01:27:52,380
goes. Five grand, maybe five
grand. Ah, shall we say thanks

1371
01:27:52,380 --> 01:27:56,130
for people? Yeah, sure. We've
been getting a couple of booths

1372
01:27:56,130 --> 01:28:00,990
here. As we move towards the
holidays. Quite an odd isn't

1373
01:28:00,990 --> 01:28:02,370
nice booths here. Oh, hey, Kim.

1374
01:28:02,370 --> 01:28:03,810
Dave Jones: Can I ask you
something real quick Jeff, come

1375
01:28:03,810 --> 01:28:07,920
before you do that. What? I'm
trying to get James on the show

1376
01:28:07,950 --> 01:28:11,640
because we usually have him on
for Christmas week. What what

1377
01:28:11,640 --> 01:28:14,310
day, do you what's your
Christmas look like?

1378
01:28:14,790 --> 01:28:17,130
Adam Curry: Oh, what was that?
We're gonna have to coordinate

1379
01:28:17,130 --> 01:28:18,750
that. I got to take a look.
Yeah,

1380
01:28:18,750 --> 01:28:21,360
Dave Jones: that's what I
figured. Yeah. You're gonna be

1381
01:28:21,840 --> 01:28:23,910
you might be busy with family.
Oh,

1382
01:28:23,910 --> 01:28:28,290
Adam Curry: no, we have events
you know. But it's all in and

1383
01:28:28,290 --> 01:28:31,890
around town. We're not
traveling. But we do have event

1384
01:28:31,890 --> 01:28:35,730
we've got events, we got dinners
and we got all kinds of stuff so

1385
01:28:35,760 --> 01:28:36,600
we figured we

1386
01:28:36,600 --> 01:28:38,670
Dave Jones: always have to do
him at night anyway because it

1387
01:28:38,670 --> 01:28:41,310
timezone site so we could do it
like one night Why doesn't

1388
01:28:41,310 --> 01:28:42,810
Adam Curry: he just get up in
the middle of the night?

1389
01:28:44,970 --> 01:28:46,500
Dave Jones: If he's willing
three o'clock in the morning?

1390
01:28:46,530 --> 01:28:49,170
Yeah, come on. He might not be
coherent if he wants

1391
01:28:49,170 --> 01:28:52,830
Adam Curry: to be on the mighty
podcasting 2.0 boardroom that'd

1392
01:28:52,830 --> 01:28:59,550
be a fun show. Thank you Dobby
das are says blue. 7500

1393
01:28:59,730 --> 01:29:03,690
Satoshis. And he reminds me
correctly. Ainsley. Costello

1394
01:29:03,690 --> 01:29:07,440
feed is up. Yeah, this is good.
This is the live concert. This

1395
01:29:07,440 --> 01:29:12,210
is going to be to December 20
December 21 mandovi. Das is such

1396
01:29:12,210 --> 01:29:17,100
a hero. He he got the feed up he
got the you know, connected the

1397
01:29:17,100 --> 01:29:21,960
stream. And he then went and
checked every single podcast app

1398
01:29:22,080 --> 01:29:25,710
to make sure that you know what
worked and what didn't guess

1399
01:29:25,710 --> 01:29:29,760
what everybody's got work to do.
That was on test day. Yeah, test

1400
01:29:29,760 --> 01:29:33,300
day. Exactly. And so here he has
links for pod fans for pod

1401
01:29:33,300 --> 01:29:40,140
verse. Podcast guru curio Kassar
beautiful. So you can find that

1402
01:29:40,950 --> 01:29:44,850
Well, I guess you could find
this in the in the chapters if

1403
01:29:44,850 --> 01:29:49,200
you go to the chapters, not not
the Table of Contents where you

1404
01:29:49,200 --> 01:29:52,080
can find it as flipped by at
this very moment as I'm talking

1405
01:29:52,080 --> 01:29:56,220
about it. Thank you Dobby Das.
Now Sam Sethi boostin laid over

1406
01:29:56,220 --> 01:30:00,000
there in the UK to two booths
here to boosted ramps and 1000s

1407
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:05,040
SATs I'll go in reverse order
activity streams are used. Oh,

1408
01:30:05,040 --> 01:30:08,370
it's actually the same. He
boasts booster twice. Same, same

1409
01:30:08,370 --> 01:30:11,910
message. Thanks, Sam. activity
streams are user generated

1410
01:30:11,910 --> 01:30:16,500
events. The user owns this just
as the podcasts or owns the RSS.

1411
01:30:16,800 --> 01:30:20,700
All apps could publish activity
streams to the podcast index.

1412
01:30:20,970 --> 01:30:24,990
Then like Saturn, I could see
the action verb boost. And now

1413
01:30:24,990 --> 01:30:26,580
we have cross app comments.

1414
01:30:28,740 --> 01:30:31,920
Dave Jones: Yep, yeah, it's yes.
The protocol for for user

1415
01:30:31,920 --> 01:30:34,170
actions. Yep. Right. Okay,

1416
01:30:34,380 --> 01:30:38,430
Adam Curry: so we just everyone
needs to build that in Okay done

1417
01:30:38,430 --> 01:30:39,060
taking care of

1418
01:30:40,830 --> 01:30:42,570
Dave Jones: these rights. I
mean, like, it's essentially

1419
01:30:42,570 --> 01:30:47,310
the, the, you know, his ideas
boost that it integrates with

1420
01:30:47,310 --> 01:30:49,530
booster grams and weight because
booster gram is just an action

1421
01:30:49,530 --> 01:30:53,010
that I users taking. So you can
represent that with an X with an

1422
01:30:53,010 --> 01:30:57,030
activity stream event. Right?
Would you absolutely for sure.

1423
01:30:57,960 --> 01:31:01,710
Adam Curry: We have Dred Scott.
Even though he I think he's

1424
01:31:01,710 --> 01:31:04,950
supposed to be on a long weekend
with his wife, but I don't know

1425
01:31:04,980 --> 01:31:10,140
he's Treb 45678 Thank you,
brother. That's actual money

1426
01:31:10,140 --> 01:31:14,430
these days. With the bitcoin
price salty crayon checks in

1427
01:31:14,430 --> 01:31:17,670
with a row of ducks had to
reboot since pod verse is under

1428
01:31:17,670 --> 01:31:19,200
duress. Oh, no.

1429
01:31:19,800 --> 01:31:20,610
Dave Jones: What's wrong? I

1430
01:31:20,610 --> 01:31:22,800
Adam Curry: don't know. I don't
know it's under duress, health

1431
01:31:22,800 --> 01:31:25,650
karma boost for the pod father.
Thank you new chair boosts for

1432
01:31:25,650 --> 01:31:29,820
the pod sage. Hopefully the new
chair is beef milkshakes. 35 by

1433
01:31:29,820 --> 01:31:39,570
five in the pipe. Mike Newman
checks in Draper boosts 77,777

1434
01:31:39,570 --> 01:31:44,250
SATs and no notes off the crayon
again with 4040 and there's

1435
01:31:44,940 --> 01:31:49,320
comic strip blogger. Oh, love
this 10,000 SATs wishing you a

1436
01:31:49,320 --> 01:31:55,350
Merry crip crypt mus he says
crypto must and a happy new fork

1437
01:31:55,530 --> 01:31:57,990
Bitcoiners yo CSB.

1438
01:31:58,620 --> 01:32:01,590
Dave Jones: Alright GCSB with
the Engel with the English puns,

1439
01:32:01,590 --> 01:32:02,460
yes, yes.

1440
01:32:02,460 --> 01:32:04,920
Adam Curry: Crazy. What do you
have on your list? Dave? That

1441
01:32:04,920 --> 01:32:06,810
was that was all the live boosts
that came in?

1442
01:32:07,260 --> 01:32:10,860
Dave Jones: Well, I've got I've
got Oscar and the boys of

1443
01:32:10,860 --> 01:32:13,740
fountains in us $200 from
PayPal.

1444
01:32:13,830 --> 01:32:16,500
Adam Curry: Oh boy. Thank you so
much. Oh

1445
01:32:16,770 --> 01:32:20,820
Unknown: Sakala 20 is Blaze only
Ambala Thank

1446
01:32:20,820 --> 01:32:22,350
Adam Curry: you. Those things
help

1447
01:32:22,920 --> 01:32:25,410
Dave Jones: me in the office
this this podcast room was so

1448
01:32:25,410 --> 01:32:31,020
nice now with the new chairs
with the assessment some time

1449
01:32:31,020 --> 01:32:34,770
this couple of nights ago
rearrange and everything got

1450
01:32:35,550 --> 01:32:37,440
rearranged the reason I
rearranged because I finally got

1451
01:32:37,440 --> 01:32:40,800
a UPS battery backup unit. Oh,
this is way to go, man. Yeah,

1452
01:32:40,830 --> 01:32:43,800
yeah. ordered that thing you
sent it. It's pretty

1453
01:32:43,800 --> 01:32:47,160
Adam Curry: powerful. It'll run
a lot of gear for for a while.

1454
01:32:47,730 --> 01:32:50,790
Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah. If it
starts beeping at me, I'm going

1455
01:32:50,790 --> 01:32:53,520
to rip the stupid vapor out of
it. I'm going to D solder that I

1456
01:32:53,520 --> 01:32:53,850
haven't

1457
01:32:53,910 --> 01:32:55,950
Adam Curry: actually haven't
heard it. I don't know if my

1458
01:32:55,950 --> 01:33:00,510
beeps or not. It's yeah, it's an
it's an a server rack cabinet.

1459
01:33:01,980 --> 01:33:03,720
Dave Jones: So I haven't heard
you gotta write yet a 19 inch

1460
01:33:03,720 --> 01:33:04,080
rack. I

1461
01:33:04,080 --> 01:33:06,120
Adam Curry: do. I got I got one
of those that you sit on the

1462
01:33:06,120 --> 01:33:11,580
floor. So it's like it's like a
quarter rack height. And yeah, I

1463
01:33:11,580 --> 01:33:16,110
got all my stuff in there. Yeah,
I got the got the five gigabit

1464
01:33:16,290 --> 01:33:20,010
fiber router in there. And I've
got my start nine in there.

1465
01:33:21,150 --> 01:33:23,850
Dave Jones: I know drip? drips
that heck, you already have a

1466
01:33:23,850 --> 01:33:27,720
UPS I tiga. Right? No, no. So

1467
01:33:27,720 --> 01:33:30,210
Adam Curry: I have the
generator. So so when the power

1468
01:33:30,270 --> 01:33:33,570
goes out, there's always this 25
second delay in cases just a

1469
01:33:33,570 --> 01:33:38,490
brownout. So the studio stays
on. And then the generator kicks

1470
01:33:38,490 --> 01:33:41,070
in. Everything's beautiful.
Amen.

1471
01:33:41,070 --> 01:33:44,790
Dave Jones: I'm good now gold.
Yeah. Dumb. I'm uptight. So.

1472
01:33:45,900 --> 01:33:49,860
Thank you, Oscar. Appreciate
that. $200 Yes, thank you that's

1473
01:33:50,010 --> 01:33:56,070
very meaningful. Jean Everett
2222. Through fountain he just

1474
01:33:56,070 --> 01:33:56,220
says

1475
01:33:56,220 --> 01:34:00,450
Adam Curry: boost boost boost.
Gene

1476
01:34:00,450 --> 01:34:03,900
Dave Jones: bein 20 to 20 tubes
erode ducts through cast Maddox

1477
01:34:03,900 --> 01:34:07,440
as a podcast app that integrates
into download you to integrate

1478
01:34:07,440 --> 01:34:11,400
in a download, downloaded
YouTube video would be awesome

1479
01:34:11,400 --> 01:34:13,980
as most YouTube downloads ended
up being ad free.

1480
01:34:14,940 --> 01:34:17,910
Adam Curry: Now that I saw,
there was a lot going on about

1481
01:34:17,910 --> 01:34:20,640
this. I saw Mitch was looking at
it. And Alex gave said Well,

1482
01:34:20,640 --> 01:34:22,890
here's how you do it. And I
don't know if anyone actually

1483
01:34:22,920 --> 01:34:24,240
took any action on that.

1484
01:34:25,470 --> 01:34:28,470
Dave Jones: Yeah, from what I
heard from what Alex said, it's

1485
01:34:28,470 --> 01:34:31,830
just at the heart of it's just
an HLS stream, so it should work

1486
01:34:33,870 --> 01:34:37,290
Adam Curry: without anchor, so I
guess we'll see any app that

1487
01:34:37,290 --> 01:34:41,670
will do this. Ainsley Costello
video feed will also be able to

1488
01:34:41,670 --> 01:34:46,620
do this with a YouTube item.
Suppose as the reason Okay, all

1489
01:34:46,620 --> 01:34:51,600
right, well, maybe I'll try it.
Do it. I mean, how can I screw

1490
01:34:51,600 --> 01:34:54,240
up my feeds any worse than I
already do? I mean, everything's

1491
01:34:54,240 --> 01:34:55,290
a mess. You've

1492
01:34:55,290 --> 01:34:57,240
Dave Jones: had such success
with lit I think you should try

1493
01:34:57,240 --> 01:34:58,320
this thing. It's just harder.

1494
01:34:59,490 --> 01:35:01,950
Adam Curry: Listen Let is really
working for me is John

1495
01:35:01,950 --> 01:35:04,260
Spurlock's making fun of me.
Like,

1496
01:35:05,130 --> 01:35:07,860
Dave Jones: what was your time
zones? Your time zone? Yeah,

1497
01:35:07,860 --> 01:35:08,550
well, I

1498
01:35:08,550 --> 01:35:12,510
Adam Curry: mean, it's for me
it's like this like AMPM is like

1499
01:35:12,510 --> 01:35:16,500
when I set it and then I don't
check it and it's just, I need

1500
01:35:16,500 --> 01:35:19,080
to pay more attention. I need to
pay more attention to it. It's

1501
01:35:19,080 --> 01:35:22,380
hilarious hilariously bad. Hey,
some

1502
01:35:22,380 --> 01:35:24,690
Dave Jones: people are still
posting on Mastodon will be live

1503
01:35:24,690 --> 01:35:28,140
in 15 minutes. So I think
you're, you're already ahead of

1504
01:35:28,140 --> 01:35:33,390
the curve. Plus one to see this
gene been 20 to 22. Another road

1505
01:35:33,390 --> 01:35:36,780
dose from Gene Benitez plus one
to super chapters. And the way

1506
01:35:36,780 --> 01:35:40,050
that could integrate could be
integrated with podcast hosts

1507
01:35:40,080 --> 01:35:43,770
existing chapter creation
interfaces. It solves the UX

1508
01:35:43,770 --> 01:35:46,320
aspect in a very clean and
simple way. Well, I

1509
01:35:46,320 --> 01:35:48,960
Adam Curry: didn't understand
that at all. You remember super

1510
01:35:48,960 --> 01:35:52,350
chapters as we're Oh yes.
Dovizioso super chapters. Yeah,

1511
01:35:52,380 --> 01:35:56,640
yeah. works beautifully. It's a
great it's a great way to

1512
01:35:56,640 --> 01:35:57,600
explain it to people.

1513
01:35:58,650 --> 01:36:01,770
Dave Jones: So Brian of London
1948 Happy Hanukkah Brian. Yes.

1514
01:36:02,400 --> 01:36:05,970
He says to cast magic he says I
hate it but I agree. Posh

1515
01:36:07,320 --> 01:36:11,010
podcasting 2.0 no agenda and
fucking pivot. I can't help

1516
01:36:11,010 --> 01:36:11,340
myself.

1517
01:36:12,480 --> 01:36:15,690
Adam Curry: It's harsh, man.
Yes, I can't help myself either.

1518
01:36:15,720 --> 01:36:20,490
I mean it's crazy how loyal I am
to my hate Listen, which is

1519
01:36:20,490 --> 01:36:24,090
pivot it's it's unbelievable
it's I'm very less like oh, it's

1520
01:36:24,090 --> 01:36:27,600
Tuesday. Oh it's Friday my hate
listeners out yeah I can't wait.

1521
01:36:28,050 --> 01:36:29,010
isn't as

1522
01:36:29,520 --> 01:36:32,430
Dave Jones: I've got a new hate
on the media as my I didn't have

1523
01:36:32,430 --> 01:36:33,060
a hate Listen

1524
01:36:33,090 --> 01:36:36,120
Adam Curry: well on the now.
They had a repeat that a repeat

1525
01:36:36,120 --> 01:36:39,870
this midweek show. That was
lame. I know. It was boring.

1526
01:36:39,870 --> 01:36:42,540
There's like from January on the
media is a good hate. Listen.

1527
01:36:42,600 --> 01:36:44,100
And after the after the

1528
01:36:44,100 --> 01:36:48,840
Dave Jones: Trump thing. I'm
like they've got he's gotten me

1529
01:36:48,840 --> 01:36:49,650
by the short hairs.

1530
01:36:49,710 --> 01:36:53,940
Adam Curry: I wish they were 2.0
boost them. I boost my hate.

1531
01:36:54,120 --> 01:36:59,520
Dave Jones: I would do that. Do
500 SATs a minute. Boost. Hey,

1532
01:36:59,670 --> 01:37:03,540
Adam Curry: what did I hear you
now? 1001 SATs per minute?

1533
01:37:03,990 --> 01:37:06,390
Dave Jones: Yeah, you shamed me
publicly shamed.

1534
01:37:06,420 --> 01:37:09,480
Adam Curry: I didn't shame you.
I never said anything about it.

1535
01:37:09,540 --> 01:37:14,400
I have not mentioned my, my
booths size at all on my stream

1536
01:37:14,400 --> 01:37:20,880
size at all. I have not streamed
my my powerful stream. I have

1537
01:37:20,880 --> 01:37:27,270
not mentioned that at all. I
keep I keep my support on the

1538
01:37:27,270 --> 01:37:28,140
QT.

1539
01:37:29,130 --> 01:37:32,370
Dave Jones: I'm your co host and
if you publicly revealed that

1540
01:37:32,370 --> 01:37:37,440
you have a fat stream as to
reveal the size of mastering

1541
01:37:37,440 --> 01:37:40,560
Adam Curry: but again, I didn't
reveal that my stream was fat.

1542
01:37:41,250 --> 01:37:41,700
It got

1543
01:37:41,730 --> 01:37:44,220
Dave Jones: it got revealed. So
I had to respond. So there's no

1544
01:37:44,220 --> 01:37:44,850
privacy

1545
01:37:44,850 --> 01:37:47,850
Adam Curry: anymore. You know,
man, look at this. Look at the

1546
01:37:47,850 --> 01:37:49,350
fatness of that guy stream.

1547
01:37:51,180 --> 01:37:57,660
Dave Jones: Check out this
enormous boost. RP 1984 4000

1548
01:37:57,660 --> 01:38:01,020
SATs to fountain says back in
September I read a blog post

1549
01:38:01,020 --> 01:38:04,680
about set based advertising in
response to Chris Fisher and a

1550
01:38:04,680 --> 01:38:08,400
discussion he had on office
hours about the ad pocalypse

1551
01:38:08,580 --> 01:38:11,760
hitting podcasting by ideas
similar to what you were talking

1552
01:38:11,760 --> 01:38:14,850
about and thought you maybe
you'd like it. He has a link

1553
01:38:14,850 --> 01:38:19,500
here tools because it's like a
blog post. Yeah, he says also

1554
01:38:19,500 --> 01:38:23,910
this is not a thought of it
first boost. Many people thought

1555
01:38:23,910 --> 01:38:28,080
of it before I did PS 12345
Spaceballs boost is a boost

1556
01:38:28,080 --> 01:38:30,870
level over edubirdie network
they even have for it.

1557
01:38:32,010 --> 01:38:34,140
Adam Curry: Spaceballs from the
movie Spaceballs? I got it

1558
01:38:34,140 --> 01:38:37,140
Dave Jones: yeah, that was the
12345 was the combination I

1559
01:38:39,180 --> 01:38:43,410
Adam Curry: so I think that
didn't fountain basically try

1560
01:38:43,410 --> 01:38:46,950
this. They tried to get the they
would give people SATs for

1561
01:38:47,250 --> 01:38:51,210
listening to ads. I don't think
it went anywhere. I think it

1562
01:38:51,210 --> 01:38:54,900
kind of petered out. So I'm not
sure I'm not sure if I've never

1563
01:38:54,900 --> 01:38:57,870
really believed in that idea.
Like, I'll let you know I'll

1564
01:38:57,870 --> 01:39:01,050
give you my time. I'll listen to
your ads if you pay me I just

1565
01:39:02,100 --> 01:39:06,510
don't know this never quite felt
right to me. I don't know. I've

1566
01:39:06,510 --> 01:39:08,640
never seen implementation.

1567
01:39:09,450 --> 01:39:13,290
Dave Jones: Karen it's mere
mortals podcast 16292 fountains

1568
01:39:13,290 --> 01:39:15,510
has been awhile since I had an
episode where I understood

1569
01:39:15,510 --> 01:39:18,600
almost nothing I guess are cool.

1570
01:39:20,460 --> 01:39:25,200
Adam Curry: Podcasts are cool.
But I believe me I don't

1571
01:39:25,200 --> 01:39:29,160
understand either. chyron I'm
just hanging on to Dave's

1572
01:39:29,160 --> 01:39:31,380
coattails. Rene

1573
01:39:31,500 --> 01:39:39,390
Dave Jones: nega paying three
five to one sets through pod

1574
01:39:39,390 --> 01:39:44,580
verse he says we still have that
stupid policy. Okay. All right.

1575
01:39:44,730 --> 01:39:47,610
That's interesting grammar says
we still have that stupid taxes.

1576
01:39:48,000 --> 01:39:50,940
But the promise we could
download not upload anything

1577
01:39:50,970 --> 01:39:53,460
anywhere except so oh him. I
think he's talking about the

1578
01:39:53,970 --> 01:39:56,040
recordable media tax that you
were talking about.

1579
01:39:56,070 --> 01:39:58,770
Adam Curry: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Wait, and so he's in Holland

1580
01:39:58,770 --> 01:40:02,550
right now They probably they
probably don't pay for it they

1581
01:40:02,550 --> 01:40:06,240
do pay for it so we have this
commies

1582
01:40:07,500 --> 01:40:10,200
Dave Jones: stupid taxes with
the promise we could download

1583
01:40:10,200 --> 01:40:13,740
not upload anything anywhere
except software then they said

1584
01:40:13,740 --> 01:40:16,950
no more downloading and still
taxes on everything was storage

1585
01:40:16,950 --> 01:40:20,730
everything I still download of
course yeah wow you criminal

1586
01:40:22,290 --> 01:40:24,450
Adam Curry: we got your IP
address you gotta let her come

1587
01:40:24,450 --> 01:40:27,540
in here my lawyer five grand
Karen

1588
01:40:27,690 --> 01:40:30,960
Dave Jones: again 2222 from
curio carry caster from the mere

1589
01:40:30,960 --> 01:40:34,950
mortals podcast. He says sent an
email just clarify my problem

1590
01:40:34,950 --> 01:40:37,320
from the last episode. Hope it
helps. Yes it did.

1591
01:40:37,350 --> 01:40:39,120
Adam Curry: We've already fixed
your problem. We're going to fix

1592
01:40:39,120 --> 01:40:40,470
it. Yeah,

1593
01:40:40,500 --> 01:40:45,540
Dave Jones: I will. I will put a
XML export on the thingamajigger

1594
01:40:45,870 --> 01:40:49,320
Adam Curry: the thing in the JPI
Yes, that's great. That's great

1595
01:40:49,320 --> 01:40:52,620
and Jaeger dot podcast and next
thing you have a jigger,

1596
01:40:54,150 --> 01:40:57,780
Dave Jones: monthlies. We get to
see pod verse $50. Thank you pod

1597
01:40:57,780 --> 01:41:03,960
verse. Mitch and Kreon. Brendon
apod, page $25. Part gram $1.

1598
01:41:03,990 --> 01:41:09,960
Joseph maraca $5 Emilio Kendall,
Molina $4, new media $1 and

1599
01:41:09,960 --> 01:41:15,270
basil Philip $25. Thank you,
basil and Lauren ball. $24.20.

1600
01:41:15,270 --> 01:41:16,500
Thank you, Lauren. And that's
our group.

1601
01:41:16,620 --> 01:41:18,750
Adam Curry: Yeah, we appreciate
these. These are this is value

1602
01:41:18,750 --> 01:41:22,050
for value. We've been talking
about it. This is a great

1603
01:41:22,050 --> 01:41:26,430
example of how value for value
works. And the proof is in the

1604
01:41:26,430 --> 01:41:29,430
pudding. Yeah, we're smoking her
own dope here. Let me go take a

1605
01:41:29,430 --> 01:41:33,300
look at that. Yes, Italico, the
tally coin stuff, you can go to

1606
01:41:33,300 --> 01:41:36,750
podcast index.org. Down at the
bottom, there's two links. One

1607
01:41:36,750 --> 01:41:42,840
is for your Fiat fun coupons.
That's for the PayPal. Another

1608
01:41:42,840 --> 01:41:47,190
one is we'll take you to our on
chain Support Portal, which no

1609
01:41:47,190 --> 01:41:52,320
one has used since October 27.
But of course, what we really

1610
01:41:52,320 --> 01:41:54,780
want you to do is get a modern
podcast app. Thank you, Dame

1611
01:41:54,780 --> 01:41:59,220
Jennifer modern podcast
apps.com. Fill up your filler up

1612
01:41:59,220 --> 01:42:08,220
and boost SEO to your heart's
delight. And does what? It it's

1613
01:42:08,220 --> 01:42:12,030
interesting to see I guess, just
before we end here, I'm seeing

1614
01:42:12,060 --> 01:42:18,030
more and more apps start to
integrate the breeze SDK. I'm

1615
01:42:18,030 --> 01:42:21,450
reading about not not our apps,
but you know, general lightning

1616
01:42:21,450 --> 01:42:30,180
apps. And and man, is the Albey
must really be growing fast.

1617
01:42:30,180 --> 01:42:32,070
Because you know, they're
they're really trying to keep

1618
01:42:32,070 --> 01:42:35,160
everybody I guess under a
million SATs in your wallet.

1619
01:42:35,670 --> 01:42:37,980
It's like, you know, please, we
don't I guess they don't want

1620
01:42:37,980 --> 01:42:41,400
the responsibility, which I can
totally understand. Yeah, for

1621
01:42:41,400 --> 01:42:45,330
Dave Jones: sure. I wonder, when
do you think? Do you think

1622
01:42:45,330 --> 01:42:50,010
Royer? Somebody? He did a breeze
SDK overview once before? Do you

1623
01:42:50,010 --> 01:42:53,460
think he'd be willing to do one
just for the podcast developers?

1624
01:42:53,670 --> 01:42:55,770
Adam Curry: I would I think that
would be fantastic. I know that

1625
01:42:55,770 --> 01:42:58,470
Steven bellows looked at it, but
it's doesn't really work. Well,

1626
01:42:58,470 --> 01:43:01,770
for the PW A's. Yes,

1627
01:43:01,770 --> 01:43:04,020
Dave Jones: alpha first. Yeah,
web apps are gonna be that's

1628
01:43:04,020 --> 01:43:04,830
gonna be tough.

1629
01:43:05,490 --> 01:43:06,450
Adam Curry: Why is that?

1630
01:43:07,770 --> 01:43:09,990
Dave Jones: Well, I mean,
because you got you got to have

1631
01:43:09,990 --> 01:43:15,180
your keys and everything
visible. Like, if you're if

1632
01:43:15,180 --> 01:43:17,640
you're a web only app, and you
don't have a server back end,

1633
01:43:17,640 --> 01:43:20,520
you you can't, you've really
essentially can't have any

1634
01:43:20,520 --> 01:43:24,780
secrets. No. You know what I
mean? Because you because it's

1635
01:43:24,780 --> 01:43:26,760
all going to be visible
somewhere. Because the only

1636
01:43:26,760 --> 01:43:30,930
thing there that the code that
runs everything is right there

1637
01:43:30,930 --> 01:43:34,500
in the browser. So you can't
hide it. So you can't he really

1638
01:43:34,500 --> 01:43:40,080
he can't even have like, like
podcast index API tokens. It's

1639
01:43:40,080 --> 01:43:40,650
right there.

1640
01:43:40,680 --> 01:43:43,500
Adam Curry: I thought curio
Kassar use the server. Maybe I'm

1641
01:43:43,500 --> 01:43:44,880
wrong. Yeah,

1642
01:43:44,880 --> 01:43:47,250
Dave Jones: Matthew, I'm not
sure how he's doing it. But

1643
01:43:47,580 --> 01:43:50,640
that's just a general problem
with PW A's and he may have like

1644
01:43:50,640 --> 01:43:52,980
one small back end server, but
it might not be enough to do

1645
01:43:52,980 --> 01:43:56,010
sort of this for this level of
processing. And

1646
01:43:56,010 --> 01:43:59,130
Adam Curry: actually, I thought
that that lb was going to do an

1647
01:43:59,130 --> 01:44:04,410
integration with the breeze SDK.
So maybe, maybe we still have to

1648
01:44:04,410 --> 01:44:11,790
ask well, first image we know we
talked about if we get to the

1649
01:44:11,820 --> 01:44:16,830
Get out, guys. Yeah. I noticed
that they didn't knock your door

1650
01:44:16,830 --> 01:44:19,770
down when you mentioned it
before that like I got no time

1651
01:44:19,770 --> 01:44:24,450
for these podcasts. I hate to
say hey, like no, do Nasir man

1652
01:44:24,510 --> 01:44:25,080
like come on

1653
01:44:28,680 --> 01:44:30,960
Dave Jones: I've got it. I made
a note of mustard to myself. Do

1654
01:44:30,960 --> 01:44:31,230
you got

1655
01:44:31,230 --> 01:44:33,210
Adam Curry: a lot of notes? How
are we going to how are we going

1656
01:44:33,210 --> 01:44:35,730
to finish out this year with all
these notes there's so much to

1657
01:44:35,730 --> 01:44:36,240
do.

1658
01:44:37,590 --> 01:44:42,330
Dave Jones: See Bumi and more.
It's one of the 12 more it says

1659
01:44:42,570 --> 01:44:42,840
that

1660
01:44:43,680 --> 01:44:47,220
Adam Curry: there's a number of
more choices in our life. Okay,

1661
01:44:47,250 --> 01:44:47,460
all right.

1662
01:44:49,350 --> 01:44:50,850
Dave Jones: All right. I get
that note we good?

1663
01:44:50,880 --> 01:44:52,200
Adam Curry: Yes. All right,
brother.

1664
01:44:54,210 --> 01:44:57,570
Dave Jones: I wanted to say our
hosting fees to like the end of

1665
01:44:57,570 --> 01:45:00,840
the year update on our hosting
fees were current only paying

1666
01:45:00,870 --> 01:45:04,260
665 a month. Wow. Linode

1667
01:45:04,860 --> 01:45:07,230
Adam Curry: that's that's,
that's up from what it was last

1668
01:45:07,230 --> 01:45:10,140
year, isn't it? Yeah, it's
nearly

1669
01:45:10,140 --> 01:45:15,330
Dave Jones: 100 100 bucks. Yeah.
And our Cloudflare bill a month

1670
01:45:15,330 --> 01:45:16,770
is 90 bucks.

1671
01:45:19,020 --> 01:45:20,160
Adam Curry: So that's not too
bad.

1672
01:45:20,910 --> 01:45:23,190
Dave Jones: No, it's not bad.
That's not bad. We've got some

1673
01:45:23,190 --> 01:45:25,020
other stuff in there. Like, you
know, we got to pay lawyers and

1674
01:45:25,020 --> 01:45:27,390
accountants and all that good
stuff. But yeah, that's our

1675
01:45:27,390 --> 01:45:30,030
primary. Those are those are two
big ones. And

1676
01:45:30,060 --> 01:45:34,320
Adam Curry: and our notice I've
been seeing is all the every

1677
01:45:34,380 --> 01:45:37,170
payment that goes to node stays
on the node. We're pretty good

1678
01:45:37,170 --> 01:45:39,690
routing node, I think. Yeah. Oh,

1679
01:45:39,690 --> 01:45:42,180
Dave Jones: yeah. Forget about
that. What how much is what's in

1680
01:45:42,180 --> 01:45:48,840
our bill? What's our bill? 202
voltage to voltage? Yeah, 30

1681
01:45:48,840 --> 01:45:50,550
years? Yes.

1682
01:45:50,550 --> 01:45:53,580
Adam Curry: A little more.
Maybe? Yeah, I think it's at

1683
01:45:53,580 --> 01:45:55,680
least 100 bucks a month.
Probably more.

1684
01:45:56,340 --> 01:46:00,480
Dave Jones: Because it because
he like he had to like give us

1685
01:46:00,480 --> 01:46:02,340
bigger discs or something. Yeah,

1686
01:46:02,340 --> 01:46:05,940
Adam Curry: he had. Yes. All
kinds of bigger stuff. We have a

1687
01:46:05,940 --> 01:46:09,210
very unique situation. It's like
nobody has the amount of

1688
01:46:09,210 --> 01:46:15,180
transactions we have. It's It's
outrageous. Insane. It's insane.

1689
01:46:16,260 --> 01:46:20,550
Dave Jones: Okay, did you know
that are so every every

1690
01:46:20,550 --> 01:46:25,470
transaction that comes through
our node, we sink down to a

1691
01:46:25,470 --> 01:46:29,640
MySQL database so that we can
properly report our own taxes

1692
01:46:29,640 --> 01:46:33,840
and our oil and all that. I know
you do that? Yeah. Yes. So we

1693
01:46:33,840 --> 01:46:36,630
have a cut every note every
transaction that's ever come

1694
01:46:36,630 --> 01:46:39,120
through our lightning node, the
pay podcast and this lightning

1695
01:46:39,120 --> 01:46:42,480
node we also have a copy in this
MySQL database. Wow. Including

1696
01:46:42,480 --> 01:46:47,220
Adam Curry: all the to V
records. Yes. Now that's that's

1697
01:46:47,220 --> 01:46:51,990
a data bundle. I'd like to mine
that would be cool.

1698
01:46:52,770 --> 01:46:56,490
Dave Jones: It's where we is how
we generate the V for the the

1699
01:46:56,490 --> 01:46:56,880
podcast.

1700
01:46:57,420 --> 01:47:00,810
Adam Curry: Toss. Yeah, yes, the
top top stats. Let's see how

1701
01:47:00,810 --> 01:47:04,230
many tops do we have today?
While we're at podcast index?

1702
01:47:04,650 --> 01:47:09,840
dot top. Let me see today. It is
the top 119

1703
01:47:10,230 --> 01:47:12,900
Dave Jones: Nice. Yeah, it was
169 last week.

1704
01:47:13,380 --> 01:47:18,600
Adam Curry: I see this this
reads almost like I love it. I

1705
01:47:18,600 --> 01:47:24,630
got the the Italian guy up in
fourth place for you started

1706
01:47:24,630 --> 01:47:27,000
Yeah, yeah, I always started
with that. All sudden, there's

1707
01:47:27,000 --> 01:47:30,270
all these Italians like posting
on my Twitter like lawyer bla

1708
01:47:30,270 --> 01:47:32,790
bla bla, bla, bla, bla bla
booster. Grand Ball.

1709
01:47:34,350 --> 01:47:35,700
Dave Jones: Solid Italian right
there.

1710
01:47:37,650 --> 01:47:39,510
Adam Curry: This whole thing
reads like boosted Grand Ball

1711
01:47:39,510 --> 01:47:43,200
Christmas comes but once a year,
morning love from the door falls

1712
01:47:43,200 --> 01:47:48,300
bacon on my mind. Nice. Nice. So

1713
01:47:48,300 --> 01:47:51,510
Dave Jones: we have all those we
have all those in the in the

1714
01:47:51,510 --> 01:47:54,810
database. And that database is
now 21 gigs.

1715
01:47:55,500 --> 01:47:57,330
Unknown: Oh, cool. It's pretty
big.

1716
01:47:59,070 --> 01:48:02,370
Dave Jones: That's 21 gigs of
that's 21 gigs of nothing but

1717
01:48:02,370 --> 01:48:05,490
lightning transactions. Gotta
love it. Gotta love it three

1718
01:48:05,490 --> 01:48:07,110
years with a lightning
transaction. So

1719
01:48:07,140 --> 01:48:10,170
Adam Curry: do we archive that
at a certain point or view? Move

1720
01:48:10,170 --> 01:48:14,580
it off into like, do send it to
the mountain to tape tape drives

1721
01:48:14,580 --> 01:48:15,120
on the mountain.

1722
01:48:16,590 --> 01:48:20,550
Dave Jones: Iron Mountain
mountain. That'd be fun at

1723
01:48:20,550 --> 01:48:23,520
Adam Curry: Costco. This
everyone should know about this

1724
01:48:23,520 --> 01:48:30,150
Costco does a 14 terabyte drive
they're selling a single disc

1725
01:48:31,050 --> 01:48:35,910
Seagate 14 terabyte drive for
149 bucks.

1726
01:48:36,750 --> 01:48:38,490
Dave Jones: Holy crap.

1727
01:48:38,520 --> 01:48:41,940
Adam Curry: That's that's that's
pretty cheap, man. Oh,

1728
01:48:41,940 --> 01:48:44,340
Dave Jones: that's dirty for a
14 terabyte drive. Yeah.

1729
01:48:44,370 --> 01:48:47,880
external drive. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. 150 bucks. There it is.

1730
01:48:47,910 --> 01:48:52,830
Yeah. 149 Do you ever in your
life, think that you would see

1731
01:48:52,830 --> 01:48:55,530
the day where we'd have 14
terabytes on a single disk?

1732
01:48:55,560 --> 01:48:58,620
Adam Curry: Well, considering my
first hard drive was for my Mac

1733
01:48:58,620 --> 01:49:04,620
Plus, and it was an external 20
megabytes scuzzy drive, which

1734
01:49:04,620 --> 01:49:08,550
was, which was big. And I mean,
that that that was like a, like

1735
01:49:08,550 --> 01:49:12,510
a school bag. That's how big it
was. And this got the scuzzy

1736
01:49:12,510 --> 01:49:14,160
plug. My

1737
01:49:14,160 --> 01:49:16,890
Dave Jones: dad My dad did some
work for IBM a long time ago. He

1738
01:49:16,890 --> 01:49:23,670
was an RPG as 400 programmer.
Oh, yeah. And he got this. He

1739
01:49:23,670 --> 01:49:28,320
got this little girl some sort
of little pin or something. It

1740
01:49:28,320 --> 01:49:36,870
was like a commemorative thing.
And it was a one kilobyte chip.

1741
01:49:37,500 --> 01:49:42,600
That was like Waco, like static
RAM or whatever, in a cold core

1742
01:49:42,600 --> 01:49:44,880
memory or something like that.
It was like this one megabyte

1743
01:49:44,880 --> 01:49:48,840
chip encased in like, a hard
blue side or something like

1744
01:49:48,840 --> 01:49:52,920
that. It was like this little
novelty thing like this is this

1745
01:49:52,920 --> 01:49:56,700
is awesome. You know, like is
one one megabyte.

1746
01:49:57,690 --> 01:49:58,440
Adam Curry: Amazing.

1747
01:49:58,830 --> 01:50:01,740
Dave Jones: Well The desk
forever like you, you're looking

1748
01:50:01,740 --> 01:50:03,540
you just look at it. You're
like, oh my god, that

1749
01:50:03,600 --> 01:50:07,560
Adam Curry: was one megabyte.
Well, do you remember? In order

1750
01:50:07,560 --> 01:50:11,370
to download a picture that was
one megabyte it would take

1751
01:50:12,060 --> 01:50:16,590
literally an hour I think was
one megabyte to an hour.

1752
01:50:17,460 --> 01:50:19,710
Dave Jones: And you just hoped
that it was a progressive JPEG.

1753
01:50:19,740 --> 01:50:24,420
Adam Curry: Yeah. So you could
see the chick unveil the black

1754
01:50:25,920 --> 01:50:27,060
Dave Jones: lacing happens as

1755
01:50:27,690 --> 01:50:30,840
Adam Curry: exactly alright
everybody now now we've gone too

1756
01:50:30,840 --> 01:50:33,000
far. Dave Have yourself a great
weekend, brother. You going back

1757
01:50:33,000 --> 01:50:33,780
to the office?

1758
01:50:34,260 --> 01:50:37,680
Dave Jones: Yep. Okay. Get to
film better man. Yeah. Oh, no,

1759
01:50:37,950 --> 01:50:39,150
no, actually, I

1760
01:50:39,960 --> 01:50:43,140
Adam Curry: I got a second wind
here. That's good. No wonder

1761
01:50:43,140 --> 01:50:47,940
that smells so bad. No. Thank
you all chat room. Thanks for

1762
01:50:47,940 --> 01:50:50,430
being here. Thank you for
supporting us value to value

1763
01:50:50,430 --> 01:50:53,880
podcasting. 2.0 the board room
comes back next week. See you

1764
01:50:53,880 --> 01:50:54,150
then.

1765
01:51:09,300 --> 01:51:13,860
Unknown: You have been listening
to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcasts

1766
01:51:13,890 --> 01:51:17,910
index.org For more information,
go podcast.

1767
01:51:19,710 --> 01:51:20,490
That's a wow