Feb. 4, 2026
Bondage to the Law
Earwitness, Chapter 8 | Bondage to the Law
In an unusual turn, District Attorney Danny Carr and original prosecutor Jeff Wallace push against Toforest Johnson’s conviction, even as he remains on death row. Beth Shelburne traces a system reluctant to admit its failures, while Toforest’s children reveal the human toll of a life caught between injustice and hope.
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00:00:10
Speaker 1: Last time on ear witness.
00:00:13
Speaker 2: She was a very credible witness.
00:00:15
Speaker 3: We believed her. Obviously, we believed her because we convicted him, and it was on her testimony.
00:00:21
Speaker 4: The only evidence supposedly they had against was this ear witness who had never heard him speak before, who had no idea who he was.
00:00:31
Speaker 5: That is extremely strongly evidence Chefish believed. Of course, the question becomes, so you believe that evidence? Well to believe that evidence, she had to believe it's Ellison.
00:00:39
Speaker 1: And so we're trying to get information on her. Her name's Violet Ellison. Do you have an opinion about her or have any any information that you could give us about her.
00:00:51
Speaker 6: I know she's ververy condicted. She's a very messy lady, very messy.
00:00:59
Speaker 5: I tell you one thing about my grandma.
00:01:01
Speaker 7: She is a that's a true scam artist.
00:01:04
Speaker 8: That's a true I hate to see it.
00:01:05
Speaker 7: I know that's my grandmother, but that's a true scam auty death.
00:01:09
Speaker 4: And I hate that this man could be innocent and for five thousand dollars, he's on this for five hour of dollars.
00:01:37
Speaker 1: Near the intersection of Rosa Parks Avenue and Liberty Street in Montgomery, Alabama, is a tiny red brick church outside Saint Peter Ame. A large white banner is stretched twenty five feet across the church's front lawn. The words It's not too late to fix this mistake are written across the banner in black and red letters. The mistake is to forrest Johnson's conviction. The banner was created by an organization called Greater Birmingham Ministries. This year, it has traveled to eight different churches across Alabama to help raise awareness about to Forest's case. Awareness that is growing.
00:02:42
Speaker 5: Holy cow, it's just ridiculous.
00:02:45
Speaker 3: This case is shameful.
00:02:48
Speaker 9: My name is Lindsay Boney. I'm a lawyer at the law firm Bradley Ariant Bolt Cummings. When I think about this case, it's mind blowing to me.
00:02:58
Speaker 3: My name is Carla Crowder. I'm a lawyer and executive director at Alabama Appleseed Center for Law Injustice. This case is stunning and this case is heartbreaking.
00:03:12
Speaker 5: My name is Nick Gaety. I have been an active lawyer in Birmingham since nineteen sixty four. We can do better, and we need to do better.
00:03:22
Speaker 3: Lots of people have known for a very long time that this man is innocent. And he's still on death row. Why does it take twenty five years?
00:03:35
Speaker 1: These are just a few in the chorus of powerful voices calling on the state to fix this. Lawyers from all sides of the political spectrum are lending their support, along with former prosecutors and judges, as well as Alabama churches and faith leaders like Sister Helen Prajean.
00:03:56
Speaker 8: Please God, with these efforts and people hearing this.
00:04:00
Speaker 4: About too Forrest, his life will be saved.
00:04:04
Speaker 1: Even death penalty supporter Bill Baxley, Alabama's former Attorney General, has joined the fight.
00:04:14
Speaker 10: I will add my voice or anything I can do, because this is a situation that shouldn't be allowed to exist another minute.
00:04:27
Speaker 1: When Baxley reviewed to Forrest's case, he was so outraged he wrote an op ed in The Washington Post that said, an innocent man is trapped on Alabama's death row.
00:04:41
Speaker 10: The only thing that I can see is to why this kind of thing happened, was the victim was a law enforcement laws.
00:04:57
Speaker 1: To Forrest Johnson now has unpressed, scidented support, and it's not just from all these people who believe he's innocent. The current District Attorney of Jefferson County along with the original prosecutor who sent him to death row. Both now say to Forrest Johnson deserves a new trial. So why is the State of Alabama still trying to kill him?
00:05:50
Speaker 11: Do you he? My man?
00:06:00
Speaker 12: That's may.
00:06:06
Speaker 5: Sorrows stay.
00:06:10
Speaker 2: List in this bas.
00:06:17
Speaker 4: Tears.
00:06:21
Speaker 5: I want to see.
00:06:25
Speaker 12: Remblation. I want to know who you a'm reation in this aspiration to the who's holding the stud.
00:06:51
Speaker 8: Student?
00:06:54
Speaker 7: Who's holding stand?
00:07:02
Speaker 1: I'm Beth Shelburn. This is ear witness, Chapter eight, Bondage to the law. Okay, how are you?
00:07:15
Speaker 3: I'm alright, I'm good.
00:07:17
Speaker 12: Yeah.
00:07:19
Speaker 1: I'm meeting with District Attorney Danny Carr, but not at his office in the courthouse. We're at the barber shop he owns in Birmingham's Insley community, where he grew up.
00:07:31
Speaker 6: From the Ansley community where we are today. I'm matriculated through the Birmingham City school system.
00:07:40
Speaker 1: The barbershop is old school tile floors, posters of hairstyles on the walls, and a sign advertising ten dollars haircuts? Can you talk while he's buzzing? I don't normally interview prosecutors while they're getting a haircut, but Danny car as a busy man. In twenty eighteen, when he was elected District Attorney of Jefferson County, he became the first black man to hold the position. He now runs the same office that argued for to Forest Johnson to be sentenced to death for Deputy Bill Hardy's murder. But Danny Carr wasn't part of to Forest's prosecution. He wasn't even a lawyer yet when it happened. Danny Carr is different from other das in a number of ways. He ran as a change maker. He put together the first conviction review unit in Jefferson County. The unit's job is to review cases where the DA's office might have made some mistakes. He's one of only three black das among the forty two across Alabama. He grew up in a community that's been impacted by crime and mass incarceration. His family has also been a victim of violence. The year he was hired as a young prosecutor, Danny's younger brother, Jackxton, was murdered. Danny named his barbershop D and Jay in his brother's memory. D for Danny, J for Jackston. Can you kind of walk me through your involvement in the to Forest Johnson case. When did you first become aware of it?
00:09:27
Speaker 6: I became aware of it when I was an assistant DA conversations about it, but I didn't know true in the facts of it. I just overheard different conversations varying opinions about it. And then what happened.
00:09:41
Speaker 1: Once Danny was elected as DA, he started hearing more about to Forest's case as a possible wrongful conviction, and the year after Danny was elected, to Forest's case was back in court. This was the hearing I covered the first time I reported on to Forest's case, where his attorneys argued that Violet Ellison testified in pursuit of the reward money and the state hid it. I saw Danny Carr at the hearing, but he told me he wasn't ready yet to comment on the case.
00:10:15
Speaker 6: It's that I didn't know, you know, who was tending truth of what was right what was wrong. I just listened and it was apparent that if some of that stuff was true, then it was concerning.
00:10:27
Speaker 1: So after the hearing, Danny decided to conduct a full review of to Forrest's conviction. For nine months, he read through the trial transcripts as well as the documents that prosecutors had claimed were misfiled. He was troubled by the five thousand dollars reward payment given to Violet Ellison that the jury didn't even know was a possibility.
00:10:53
Speaker 6: Well, if that information was not disclosed, then the process was flawed, and the process was flawed, and then the end result is not truly the end result, because to get to the end result, the process has to be fair.
00:11:09
Speaker 1: Danny also talked to people involved, including alibi witnesses, but perhaps the most significant person, Danny Carr consulted the original prosecutor, Jeff Wallace, the same prosecutor who asked two juries to sentence to Forrest to death. It turns out Jeff Wallace had his own questions about the credibility of his star witness, Violet Ellison, going back fifteen years.
00:11:41
Speaker 5: I observed something that triggered in my mind, indeed to report this to the defense. I don't know if you know about that or not. What did you observe after the conviction and somebols.
00:11:55
Speaker 1: Several years after to Forrest was convicted, Jeff said he was passed through a courtroom during a trial of a drug dealer. Jeff Wallace wasn't prosecuting the case. He just needed to ask the bailiff a question.
00:12:10
Speaker 5: And as I left the bailiff station, which of course in the front of the courtroom, I'm walking out and happening to notice in the spectators area on the front row the defendant's wife being consoled by our chief witness in the Johnson case, in Ellison, Miss Ellison. That's right in my mind, that conduct was inconsistent with the picture that I had of miss Ellison at the time of trial. She seemed to me to be only a mother trying to do the best thing for her daughter, and happened to overhear a telephone conversation, and that record that the notes that she made of that telephone conversation became important in the trial of mister john as you know. So her credibility as the citizen she was, I think was important because she was the case. She is the case.
00:13:16
Speaker 1: To be clear, I'm not sure what consoling a suspected drug dealer's wife has to do with Violet Ellison's credibility into Forrest's case, but Jeff said it left him with an unsettling impression about his star witness, a realization that there were things about her he didn't know.
00:13:45
Speaker 11: So.
00:13:47
Speaker 5: Seeing her being so close to the wife of a man that everybody knew was a major drug dealer disturbed in that image in my mind, I thought, well, I'm going to report that to the out side, to the defense.
00:14:04
Speaker 7: And he did.
00:14:05
Speaker 1: In two thousand and seven, Jeff Wallace talked to to Forest's legal team about what he saw. They looked into the information, but so far it hasn't led to any new legal claims for to Forest. Fast forward thirteen years and Danny Carr calls on Jeff Wallace to talk about the conviction of to Forest Johnson. Jeff shares his concerns about Violet Ellison's credibility, and then he does something that makes a major impression on Danny. Jeff Wallace says he believes to Forest should be granted a new trial. This incredible development pushes Danny to take public action.
00:14:50
Speaker 6: Your job is not to get convictions. Your job is to seek the truth.
00:14:54
Speaker 1: But Danny has one more important call to make to Deputy Bill Hardy's family. He braces himself. It's never easy for a prosecutor to talk to a victim's family about unsettling the conviction and their loved one's murder. But he picks up the phone and calls Deputy Hardy's widow, Patricia Diane Hardy.
00:15:17
Speaker 6: And when I called her, she said, look, she said, I know your mom. I know you, but knowing since she was a little boy, she said, you know, I trust you, and whatever decision you make, I'm fine with it. But I trust you and you can't get any better. Go yeah, And that's what you want from people, period.
00:15:38
Speaker 1: And then Danny Carr does something extraordinary, something that almost never happens. He files a brief with the Jefferson County Court, writing that his duty to seek justice requires intervention in the case of to Forrest Johnson. He asks Judge Pullyam to row out to Forrest's conviction and order a new trial, and he includes that the original prosecutor, Jeff Wallace, supports this call for a new trial. Of all the capital murder cases that you've looked at, you've tried, you've been familiar with as DA, how do you see this case? How would you describe it in the context of all the cases you've seen.
00:16:27
Speaker 6: I think it's the worst case.
00:16:30
Speaker 1: I spoke with Jeff Wallace about his support for a new trial. I think you joining the district attorney is a powerful statement from a former prosecutor in a capital case. I can't remember, in my reporting of over twenty years, ever seeing that or hearing about it.
00:16:53
Speaker 5: Oh, I'm sure I'm not the first.
00:16:56
Speaker 1: Jeff seemed to want to downplay the significance of his support for a new trial. But this is seriously rare. I looked for other cases like this and reached out to experts who study wrongful convictions. Nobody could remember a death penalty case in any state where the original trial prosecutor called for a new trial. I interviewed Jeff Wallace three different times, with four hours of on the record conversations. Jeff was accessible and generous with his time, but he was also careful with his words.
00:17:35
Speaker 5: I still am personally satisfied that the evidence showed to Forest Johnson to be yuilty. Of course, my opinion is based in a large part on the testimony of the Violet Ellison that I saw at trial. But there's a in my opinion, there's a reason to look at it again.
00:17:57
Speaker 1: This is what I mean by careful. He says the evidence at trial showed to Forrest to be guilty based on Violet Ellison's testimony, but he also says the concern he had about Violet Ellison's credibility is why he supports the call for a new trial. After my first conversation with Jeff Wallace in twenty twenty one, I did a lot more investigating into Violet Ellison. I asked to speak with Jeff again because I wanted to share everything that I learned. We also found that, in addition to being a witness in this case, Violet Ellison has been a witness in four other criminal cases in Jefferson.
00:18:43
Speaker 3: County after Johnson Couch, Before.
00:18:47
Speaker 1: During and after, I tell Jeff about the other cases where Violet Ellison was a witness for the state and that the defense accused her of lying to police and under oath. He listens politely, But what I really want is for Jeff Wallace to hear some clips of what people are saying about Violet Ellison, the star witness he put on the stand, the same witness he now has questions about, do you have any interest in listening to what we found?
00:19:27
Speaker 5: You don't?
00:19:29
Speaker 1: I find that like astonishing?
00:19:33
Speaker 5: I don't know.
00:19:33
Speaker 1: Can you please, can you explain why you don't want to hear.
00:19:36
Speaker 5: What we found. I'm not the prosecuting attorney in the case, or for that matter, of the defending attorney. Of course I couldn't be. But oh.
00:19:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, but Jeff, I mean, you tried this case and you ask the jury to sentence him to death and he's on death row.
00:19:58
Speaker 5: That was the state of the evid when I was standing on the court.
00:20:01
Speaker 1: Run the evidence hasn't changed in your mind after what we've told you.
00:20:10
Speaker 5: No, I think evidence has change, but it's no longer my responsibility.
00:20:19
Speaker 1: In a way, He's right. The responsibility of all death row cases after conviction falls to Alabama's Attorney General, an elected position that represents the entire state, unlike district attorneys who represent a single county. The current Attorney General in Alabama is Steve Marshall. He could listen to Danny Carr and Jeff Wallace and allow a new trial for to Forrest Johnson, but instead, the AG's office calls this a subjective opinion that does not raise an issue of extraordinary public importance or any compelling circumstances. Marshall's office is still actively and aggressively fighting to Forest's appeals and seeking his execution. These conflicting positions make me think of those big metal grain silos that you see in the Midwest, with each party in our criminal justice system in its own silo, isolated from the opposing view, trapped in their official position. I talk with Jeff Wallace about this dynamic. It does seem like there are a lot of silos that people are in in the system, and they stay in those silos. Does that make sense?
00:21:55
Speaker 5: It does? And if a silo is that you cannot climb out of, then that's where I am. I've told you what I think if it were legal and it were presented to me, Uh, would you or would you not order a new trial? Mister Wallace, I've signed it today and order a new trial. But the thing you're calling a silo, my silo is a retired former prosecutor who happened to have been in charge of this case at one time.
00:22:24
Speaker 1: So why can't you climb out of the silo?
00:22:28
Speaker 5: What silo would I climb into? I can't be a depellate judge, I can't be the defendant's attorney. I can't be a juror, can't be the defendant.
00:22:41
Speaker 1: What if we just all climb out of our silos, and nobody's in a silo anymore. If we're all just kind of out in the open.
00:22:49
Speaker 5: Well, the law has set up these silos and the law is still in effect.
00:22:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's this quote on the outside of the Jefferson County Courthouse.
00:22:59
Speaker 5: That we're in bondage to the law in order that we may be free.
00:23:03
Speaker 1: That's it. We are in bondage to the law in order that we may be free. It's a quote from Roman philosopher Cicero. Why do we have to be in bondage to something to be free?
00:23:17
Speaker 5: Either we have laws or we don't. Which way do you want it?
00:23:22
Speaker 1: I guess one thing that we've been thinking about is like, what is the cost of that bondage? And is it that sometimes you end up with situations like this?
00:23:37
Speaker 5: I sure hope not. But the law is the law. No, one don't want to present me that piece of paper and ask me whether I would order a new trial. I'm in bondage to the law.
00:24:01
Speaker 1: You may see Jeff Wallace's support for a new trial as a half measure. He could call the case an injustice and take more accountability for his role into Forrest's conviction, but a trial prosecutor saying anything that calls a conviction into question is exceptional. There's no incentive for Jeff Wallace to say a word, no framework for prosecutors to voice doubt, or space for regrets to count, and yet Jeff Wallace still chose to speak up when he didn't have to say anything at all. In this project, we tried to answer the question of how an innocent man ended up on death row. We laid bare an investigation that was rushed to conclusion by tunnel vision and pressure to convict someone, anyone, for the murder of a deputy sheriff. This case shows us how young, marginalized people like Yolanda Chambers can be exploited, and how money is wielded as an incentive for vulnerable people to become ensnared with law enforcement. It also demonstrates the terrible consequences for people who can't afford to pay for the best criminal defense. So far, the courts have said there was nothing illegal about what the state did, presenting five different theories about who committed the murder, and paying the key witness behind closed doors, only admitting to this payment seventeen years later. This is how our system works. According to the courts that have examined to Forrest Johnson's conviction, it's not broken. It's working exactly as designed.
00:26:12
Speaker 10: They say that you presumed innocent until proven guilty, and that.
00:26:16
Speaker 1: Is the law former Attorney General Bill Baxley.
00:26:21
Speaker 10: But deep down, people don't believe somebody is innocent until they've proven guilty beyond regional doubt. They think that they had to do something or they wouldn't have been arrested and wouldn't have been indiced, and wouldn't be there.
00:26:39
Speaker 9: Not only do they presume people guilty, but they look at these people as expendable.
00:26:44
Speaker 1: Richard Jeffy, who represented Ardregis Ford, when.
00:26:48
Speaker 9: The system failed to Forrest Johnson, it betrayed all of us. To fores Johnson is as innocent as anyone could possibly be. Deputy Hardy would never want the wrong person to be convicted for his murder.
00:27:10
Speaker 1: After Jeffy's client, Ordregus Ford was acquitted, he lived a quiet life, mostly in Atlanta. His mother, Joyce Ford said to Forrest's conviction wade on her son.
00:27:25
Speaker 8: He never talked about it. He was strong. He never talked about it, but you know, you know he would get quiet at times. He will be rolling in the wheelchairs, go sit quiet with his head. Now, you know it took him a while to try to overcome it. You never overcome it, but so you know he had his days, you know, through it all, through the grace of God it too. It was a long, hard bell But I would never wish that on a mother.
00:28:03
Speaker 1: Ardregis died from health issues in twenty twenty one. His mom, Joyce Ford, died less than a year after we recorded this interview. I've been reporting onto Forest's case since twenty nineteen. I've interviewed dozens of people, but the one person I'd still most like to talk to is the very person I can't reach. Alabama's prison system doesn't allow people on death row to talk to journalists. To Forest's family has shared dozens of digital photos with me that I've kept in a folder on my laptop. There's to Forest as a baby wearing a tiny suit, as a skinny kid wearing a bow tie, and so many photos from visits at Holman Prison with his arms around his family. And I know the closest I can get to him is through the people he loves the most, his kids.
00:29:53
Speaker 13: Podcast and I've been, you know, writing about your dad's case for about two years now, so I'm so happy to finally see y'all and meet y'all and you get to hang out with you.
00:30:04
Speaker 1: Especially in October of twenty twenty one, I asked to Forest kids if we could all get together and talk. So we meet up on a Saturday afternoon at his oldest daughter, Shanee Pool's place. It's a light filled condo in downtown Birmingham. Her golden doodle named Banks, meanders around wagging his tail at everyone, and his kids immediately start to share memories of their dad.
00:30:33
Speaker 8: I remember going and real Eliza how short he was though he's so short when we took a picture on side of each other.
00:30:41
Speaker 2: He's so short, you like tower omer daddy, and I'm his same height. I'm Shane Pool. I am the oldest daughter of the Forest.
00:30:52
Speaker 1: Shane has his smile.
00:30:55
Speaker 5: I'm Maurice Myers, and I'm the four oldest, the farest.
00:31:02
Speaker 1: His son Maurice Myers has his eyes and nose.
00:31:08
Speaker 7: I'm Tremayan Pierre. I'm the oldest cub.
00:31:12
Speaker 1: His oldest child, Tremaine Perry has his voice and laugh.
00:31:18
Speaker 2: And I'm a curriolalla in him the baby cub.
00:31:21
Speaker 1: And Akiria, who goes by Muffin. His youngest looks like she could be a twin to t Forest and his younger years. To Forest has one other son named Robbie Foster, but he was unable to join us for this gathering because he was living in Colorado at the time. He also looks like his father's twin. An inside joke is these siblings all share a common attribute from their dad.
00:31:50
Speaker 5: My head. Man.
00:31:51
Speaker 7: We all got these big heads.
00:31:52
Speaker 1: If you haven't known, forehead.
00:31:54
Speaker 7: That's what's really big, is the forehead. He blessed us all that. That's why I grew my hat. So I know I was the oldest old I saw maybe a lot more than they did, you know what I mean, But it I knew what was going on, like when I stopped seeing 'em. You know what I'm saying, Cause they told me, like right off the bat, So how old were you when he bru about six or seven?
00:32:32
Speaker 1: Okay, this is Tremaine, the oldest cub.
00:32:37
Speaker 7: I was getting ready to to ask my mom to take me into my pop's house, like I wanna go, s I wanna go with my daddy. This weekend, and she's like, you won't be able to go this weekend cause you won't he not gonna be there, So like, what you mean, well, he at I wait on to come back. She's like, Nah, it might be a minute before he come back. And that's when I end up calling my grandma and she just let me know what was going on just right then, and that, like that kid kind of killed my spirits, you know what I'm saying. I don't. I'm thinking like if he ain't did nothing wrong and while he gone, I could never get an answer for that. Nobody could ever answer that, you know what I'm saying. So just knowing that this man is setting behind bars twenty plus years for something that he didn't do, like that's heartbreaking.
00:33:29
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:33:30
Speaker 7: Yeah, you are to think about how life would be if it hadn't happen, if things could be reversed. You think about a lot of stuff, but you can never get that, you know what I'm saying.
00:33:48
Speaker 1: Shaney also remembers trying to put the pieces together about why she had to go to the prison to see her dad.
00:33:56
Speaker 2: So I'm home with my mom and there I go visit my dad. But I didn't realize that that was normal until we get into grade school and I see children with their two parents home, and so now I'm like, okay, this is something that's not This is not adding up, something is not right, so you know, help me understand what's happening. And then it's like, okay, well he's away, but he's innocent, So what is innocent mean.
00:34:18
Speaker 3: I'm a kid.
00:34:18
Speaker 2: I don't understand what that means. He's there for something that he didn't do. Okay, well, why can't he just come home then? And so then I begin to get frustrated with him because I'm like, okay, well, if you didn't do it, then you could just come home. But clearly it doesn't work that way.
00:34:33
Speaker 5: And then as I got.
00:34:34
Speaker 1: Older, even though their father wasn't at home to Forrest's kids didn't stop seeing him. They would get in the car with their grandmother, Donna, to Forrest's mother to make the two hundred and ten mile drive from Birmingham to Holman Prison, three hours each way.
00:34:54
Speaker 11: I just remember I always riding there's all right, and I was so young, I was like, it's almost like you're driving the floora going down.
00:35:05
Speaker 7: There is in the middle of nowhere is no really no roll like to lead to anywell out there. Yeah, we took those trips.
00:35:16
Speaker 1: In Alabama, visits with men on death row are done in the visiting yard, the same area to Forrest met with his attorney Tie. It's called the yard, but it's indoors, like a big cafeteria lined with vending machines and Grandma.
00:35:32
Speaker 2: So what I remember is quarters. Grandma used to have a.
00:35:36
Speaker 7: Sage, the freezer, bags full of cords and nickels, all the change we can get.
00:35:48
Speaker 1: But before they got into the prison to see their dad with the big bag of quarters so everyone could get their favorite snacks and candy from the prison yard vending machines. To four kids had to go through prison security where guards searched them and patted them down.
00:36:07
Speaker 2: Look at thinking back on them up. And I didn't really think about this until now, just kind of how violating it kind of was with them because they had to search us like the same way. Yeah, and we were children basically touching all.
00:36:24
Speaker 12: Love you, and I was just like, this is a little weird.
00:36:27
Speaker 5: I'm not comfortable with your touching me.
00:36:28
Speaker 11: I mean, I'm just a kid, I'm not bringing nothing in you.
00:36:31
Speaker 5: So it was just real violating.
00:36:34
Speaker 11: I was like, I really don't want to come back, but I want to so I can see my dad.
00:36:39
Speaker 1: I just don't want you to touch me.
00:36:41
Speaker 2: But and we couldn't, you know, touch him whenever we were in there. So of course, you know, you want to sit on your dad's lap, you want to lay on them and hug on them, and you can't do that. You have to keep your distance from each other. And like Tremaine said, there's never enough time. It always seems like it's just we just got here, turn back around and get on the road trip again.
00:37:03
Speaker 1: The visits were just a few hours once a month at most, but it's where and how they got to know their father. Their relationships with their father are marked by both his absence and his presence. They admire his strength, the way he loves to hear about their lives when they talk on the phone, and how he never makes them feel like their problems are small.
00:37:34
Speaker 2: When he calls you and you just want to talk about the good things. And he's lived these life tuus, these alles, So now what's really going on? Like I can hear it in your voice, okay, princess, So I'm not right. And I'd never like to tell him anything bad because he's just there's nothing that he could do. But he's like, this is my way of being a father to you. This is how I can parent you. To allow me to do that, And then you feel so much better after you talk to him about it.
00:38:02
Speaker 1: Oh, he's gonna make you laugh.
00:38:03
Speaker 2: He's gonna make you laugh.
00:38:05
Speaker 5: I'd be like, Okay, I'm not mad anymore. Yeah, thank you.
00:38:09
Speaker 2: Right, And then it's hard to be mad, you know, it's hard to be angry or mad or kind of self sulk.
00:38:14
Speaker 1: Because and you think about his situation, right, and he.
00:38:19
Speaker 2: Always asks, so what you eat? I never want to tell him what I ate for dinner, never because it's I hate telling.
00:38:26
Speaker 7: I know he can't eat the same, you know what I'm saying.
00:38:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, but he wants to know what you made.
00:38:31
Speaker 2: He wants to know or he wants like what we did today, Like if you if you would be on the phone with Tremado Maurice. Yeah, I talked to Tremaana Maurice, uh the other day and they were out somewhere, but he won't say they were.
00:38:42
Speaker 1: He like we were so like he's.
00:38:44
Speaker 2: Living through my brothers, like whatever they do, he thinks like he's out with them. Yeah, we're human bodies like we are have been affected. These are men that missed out on their father raising them. These he's missed the birth of multiple grandchildren. He's miss milestones us completing college and getting our first big girl jobs and purchasing our first homes. Like these are really important things that he has missed out on. And so you have space and you have time between all of us that we literally cannot get back. Like there's nothing that we could do about it. And so at the least that you could do is take uh a be accountable for what was done. And I think that that's all we're asking for at this point. We're not trying to point the finger at anybody. We just we want true justice to be served and we just want him to come home and for there to be some type of accountability held. And it's frustrating, it's disheartening, but it's like, well, we just gotta keep fighting because we gotta fight for daddy. We gotta fight to get Daddy home. I think we bypassed of pointing the finger, and you know, we're still hurting, we're still angry, we're still confused. Have said, we have a lot of emotions, but we just want him to come home.
00:40:12
Speaker 1: Why is to Forest Johnson still on Alabama's death row? Why is he still locked in a cell when so many people, including the prosecutor who argued to put him there, are calling for a new trial. In early October twenty twenty three, the United States Supreme Court announced it would not review to Forrest Johnson's case, but to Forest's legal team continues to fight for him. They have appeals pending in both state and federal courts. This is where we find ourselves unable to tell you how this story ends. I plan to stay here with de Forest, his family, his children, his lawyers, and everyone else who believes in him will continue to hold him in the light of truth.
00:41:12
Speaker 11: This is a free call from before.
00:41:17
Speaker 1: An incarcerated individual at Alabama Department of Corrections. That call is not private. It will be recorded and maybe Migerg you may start the conversation now.
00:41:28
Speaker 2: Hey Daddy, Hey Brinda, Hi, what you doing.
00:41:34
Speaker 4: I'm good day, It.
00:41:36
Speaker 2: Was good long today. Still trying to get used to.
00:41:49
Speaker 1: To Forrest calls his family from prison whenever he can, but his oldest daughter, Shaney also keeps his cards and letters in a case Swiss shoe box under her bed.
00:42:04
Speaker 2: If I had to describe this card, there is a beehive on the front with a few bees buzzing around, and it's dated January fifth, two thousand and three.
00:42:18
Speaker 1: Like all the people who love to Forrest Johnson, his five kits and fifteen grandkits, his mother Donna, his aunts, uncles, and cousins, they read the words he sent them over the years when they need to hold him close.
00:42:38
Speaker 2: It reads, I love you and can't wait to see you and hold you in my arms again. You underlined are the reason Daddy has a spirit to get up every day and has hope that there would be a better day up ahead for me. And he says, Shaney, Daddy wants you to be a good young lady and too what your mother asks of you. I love you and I hope to see you again real soon.
00:43:10
Speaker 12: Be good?
00:43:10
Speaker 3: All right.
00:43:27
Speaker 1: To learn more about the fight to free to Forest Johnson, sign up for updates and learn how you can help, visit the website created by Greater Birmingham Ministries for to Forest. It's to Forest Johnson dot com and a special thanks to the family of to Forest Johnson, who have generously shared so much for this series. Ear Witness is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number One. Executive producers are Jason Flom, Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wardis, and me Beth Shelburne. The investigative reporting for this series was done by Me and MARAA McNamara. Producers are MARAA McNamara, Hannah Beal, and Jackie Polly. Kara Kornhaber is our senior producer. Britt Spangler is our sound designer. Additional story editing from Marie Sutton, fact checkhelp from Catherine Newhan, and special thanks to to Forrest Johnson's legal defense team. You can follow the show on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and Twitter at Lava for Good. To see behind the scenes content from our investigation, visit Lava for goood dot com slash ear Witness
00:45:21
Speaker 5: M
Speaker 1: Last time on ear witness.
00:00:13
Speaker 2: She was a very credible witness.
00:00:15
Speaker 3: We believed her. Obviously, we believed her because we convicted him, and it was on her testimony.
00:00:21
Speaker 4: The only evidence supposedly they had against was this ear witness who had never heard him speak before, who had no idea who he was.
00:00:31
Speaker 5: That is extremely strongly evidence Chefish believed. Of course, the question becomes, so you believe that evidence? Well to believe that evidence, she had to believe it's Ellison.
00:00:39
Speaker 1: And so we're trying to get information on her. Her name's Violet Ellison. Do you have an opinion about her or have any any information that you could give us about her.
00:00:51
Speaker 6: I know she's ververy condicted. She's a very messy lady, very messy.
00:00:59
Speaker 5: I tell you one thing about my grandma.
00:01:01
Speaker 7: She is a that's a true scam artist.
00:01:04
Speaker 8: That's a true I hate to see it.
00:01:05
Speaker 7: I know that's my grandmother, but that's a true scam auty death.
00:01:09
Speaker 4: And I hate that this man could be innocent and for five thousand dollars, he's on this for five hour of dollars.
00:01:37
Speaker 1: Near the intersection of Rosa Parks Avenue and Liberty Street in Montgomery, Alabama, is a tiny red brick church outside Saint Peter Ame. A large white banner is stretched twenty five feet across the church's front lawn. The words It's not too late to fix this mistake are written across the banner in black and red letters. The mistake is to forrest Johnson's conviction. The banner was created by an organization called Greater Birmingham Ministries. This year, it has traveled to eight different churches across Alabama to help raise awareness about to Forest's case. Awareness that is growing.
00:02:42
Speaker 5: Holy cow, it's just ridiculous.
00:02:45
Speaker 3: This case is shameful.
00:02:48
Speaker 9: My name is Lindsay Boney. I'm a lawyer at the law firm Bradley Ariant Bolt Cummings. When I think about this case, it's mind blowing to me.
00:02:58
Speaker 3: My name is Carla Crowder. I'm a lawyer and executive director at Alabama Appleseed Center for Law Injustice. This case is stunning and this case is heartbreaking.
00:03:12
Speaker 5: My name is Nick Gaety. I have been an active lawyer in Birmingham since nineteen sixty four. We can do better, and we need to do better.
00:03:22
Speaker 3: Lots of people have known for a very long time that this man is innocent. And he's still on death row. Why does it take twenty five years?
00:03:35
Speaker 1: These are just a few in the chorus of powerful voices calling on the state to fix this. Lawyers from all sides of the political spectrum are lending their support, along with former prosecutors and judges, as well as Alabama churches and faith leaders like Sister Helen Prajean.
00:03:56
Speaker 8: Please God, with these efforts and people hearing this.
00:04:00
Speaker 4: About too Forrest, his life will be saved.
00:04:04
Speaker 1: Even death penalty supporter Bill Baxley, Alabama's former Attorney General, has joined the fight.
00:04:14
Speaker 10: I will add my voice or anything I can do, because this is a situation that shouldn't be allowed to exist another minute.
00:04:27
Speaker 1: When Baxley reviewed to Forrest's case, he was so outraged he wrote an op ed in The Washington Post that said, an innocent man is trapped on Alabama's death row.
00:04:41
Speaker 10: The only thing that I can see is to why this kind of thing happened, was the victim was a law enforcement laws.
00:04:57
Speaker 1: To Forrest Johnson now has unpressed, scidented support, and it's not just from all these people who believe he's innocent. The current District Attorney of Jefferson County along with the original prosecutor who sent him to death row. Both now say to Forrest Johnson deserves a new trial. So why is the State of Alabama still trying to kill him?
00:05:50
Speaker 11: Do you he? My man?
00:06:00
Speaker 12: That's may.
00:06:06
Speaker 5: Sorrows stay.
00:06:10
Speaker 2: List in this bas.
00:06:17
Speaker 4: Tears.
00:06:21
Speaker 5: I want to see.
00:06:25
Speaker 12: Remblation. I want to know who you a'm reation in this aspiration to the who's holding the stud.
00:06:51
Speaker 8: Student?
00:06:54
Speaker 7: Who's holding stand?
00:07:02
Speaker 1: I'm Beth Shelburn. This is ear witness, Chapter eight, Bondage to the law. Okay, how are you?
00:07:15
Speaker 3: I'm alright, I'm good.
00:07:17
Speaker 12: Yeah.
00:07:19
Speaker 1: I'm meeting with District Attorney Danny Carr, but not at his office in the courthouse. We're at the barber shop he owns in Birmingham's Insley community, where he grew up.
00:07:31
Speaker 6: From the Ansley community where we are today. I'm matriculated through the Birmingham City school system.
00:07:40
Speaker 1: The barbershop is old school tile floors, posters of hairstyles on the walls, and a sign advertising ten dollars haircuts? Can you talk while he's buzzing? I don't normally interview prosecutors while they're getting a haircut, but Danny car as a busy man. In twenty eighteen, when he was elected District Attorney of Jefferson County, he became the first black man to hold the position. He now runs the same office that argued for to Forest Johnson to be sentenced to death for Deputy Bill Hardy's murder. But Danny Carr wasn't part of to Forest's prosecution. He wasn't even a lawyer yet when it happened. Danny Carr is different from other das in a number of ways. He ran as a change maker. He put together the first conviction review unit in Jefferson County. The unit's job is to review cases where the DA's office might have made some mistakes. He's one of only three black das among the forty two across Alabama. He grew up in a community that's been impacted by crime and mass incarceration. His family has also been a victim of violence. The year he was hired as a young prosecutor, Danny's younger brother, Jackxton, was murdered. Danny named his barbershop D and Jay in his brother's memory. D for Danny, J for Jackston. Can you kind of walk me through your involvement in the to Forest Johnson case. When did you first become aware of it?
00:09:27
Speaker 6: I became aware of it when I was an assistant DA conversations about it, but I didn't know true in the facts of it. I just overheard different conversations varying opinions about it. And then what happened.
00:09:41
Speaker 1: Once Danny was elected as DA, he started hearing more about to Forest's case as a possible wrongful conviction, and the year after Danny was elected, to Forest's case was back in court. This was the hearing I covered the first time I reported on to Forest's case, where his attorneys argued that Violet Ellison testified in pursuit of the reward money and the state hid it. I saw Danny Carr at the hearing, but he told me he wasn't ready yet to comment on the case.
00:10:15
Speaker 6: It's that I didn't know, you know, who was tending truth of what was right what was wrong. I just listened and it was apparent that if some of that stuff was true, then it was concerning.
00:10:27
Speaker 1: So after the hearing, Danny decided to conduct a full review of to Forrest's conviction. For nine months, he read through the trial transcripts as well as the documents that prosecutors had claimed were misfiled. He was troubled by the five thousand dollars reward payment given to Violet Ellison that the jury didn't even know was a possibility.
00:10:53
Speaker 6: Well, if that information was not disclosed, then the process was flawed, and the process was flawed, and then the end result is not truly the end result, because to get to the end result, the process has to be fair.
00:11:09
Speaker 1: Danny also talked to people involved, including alibi witnesses, but perhaps the most significant person, Danny Carr consulted the original prosecutor, Jeff Wallace, the same prosecutor who asked two juries to sentence to Forrest to death. It turns out Jeff Wallace had his own questions about the credibility of his star witness, Violet Ellison, going back fifteen years.
00:11:41
Speaker 5: I observed something that triggered in my mind, indeed to report this to the defense. I don't know if you know about that or not. What did you observe after the conviction and somebols.
00:11:55
Speaker 1: Several years after to Forrest was convicted, Jeff said he was passed through a courtroom during a trial of a drug dealer. Jeff Wallace wasn't prosecuting the case. He just needed to ask the bailiff a question.
00:12:10
Speaker 5: And as I left the bailiff station, which of course in the front of the courtroom, I'm walking out and happening to notice in the spectators area on the front row the defendant's wife being consoled by our chief witness in the Johnson case, in Ellison, Miss Ellison. That's right in my mind, that conduct was inconsistent with the picture that I had of miss Ellison at the time of trial. She seemed to me to be only a mother trying to do the best thing for her daughter, and happened to overhear a telephone conversation, and that record that the notes that she made of that telephone conversation became important in the trial of mister john as you know. So her credibility as the citizen she was, I think was important because she was the case. She is the case.
00:13:16
Speaker 1: To be clear, I'm not sure what consoling a suspected drug dealer's wife has to do with Violet Ellison's credibility into Forrest's case, but Jeff said it left him with an unsettling impression about his star witness, a realization that there were things about her he didn't know.
00:13:45
Speaker 11: So.
00:13:47
Speaker 5: Seeing her being so close to the wife of a man that everybody knew was a major drug dealer disturbed in that image in my mind, I thought, well, I'm going to report that to the out side, to the defense.
00:14:04
Speaker 7: And he did.
00:14:05
Speaker 1: In two thousand and seven, Jeff Wallace talked to to Forest's legal team about what he saw. They looked into the information, but so far it hasn't led to any new legal claims for to Forest. Fast forward thirteen years and Danny Carr calls on Jeff Wallace to talk about the conviction of to Forest Johnson. Jeff shares his concerns about Violet Ellison's credibility, and then he does something that makes a major impression on Danny. Jeff Wallace says he believes to Forest should be granted a new trial. This incredible development pushes Danny to take public action.
00:14:50
Speaker 6: Your job is not to get convictions. Your job is to seek the truth.
00:14:54
Speaker 1: But Danny has one more important call to make to Deputy Bill Hardy's family. He braces himself. It's never easy for a prosecutor to talk to a victim's family about unsettling the conviction and their loved one's murder. But he picks up the phone and calls Deputy Hardy's widow, Patricia Diane Hardy.
00:15:17
Speaker 6: And when I called her, she said, look, she said, I know your mom. I know you, but knowing since she was a little boy, she said, you know, I trust you, and whatever decision you make, I'm fine with it. But I trust you and you can't get any better. Go yeah, And that's what you want from people, period.
00:15:38
Speaker 1: And then Danny Carr does something extraordinary, something that almost never happens. He files a brief with the Jefferson County Court, writing that his duty to seek justice requires intervention in the case of to Forrest Johnson. He asks Judge Pullyam to row out to Forrest's conviction and order a new trial, and he includes that the original prosecutor, Jeff Wallace, supports this call for a new trial. Of all the capital murder cases that you've looked at, you've tried, you've been familiar with as DA, how do you see this case? How would you describe it in the context of all the cases you've seen.
00:16:27
Speaker 6: I think it's the worst case.
00:16:30
Speaker 1: I spoke with Jeff Wallace about his support for a new trial. I think you joining the district attorney is a powerful statement from a former prosecutor in a capital case. I can't remember, in my reporting of over twenty years, ever seeing that or hearing about it.
00:16:53
Speaker 5: Oh, I'm sure I'm not the first.
00:16:56
Speaker 1: Jeff seemed to want to downplay the significance of his support for a new trial. But this is seriously rare. I looked for other cases like this and reached out to experts who study wrongful convictions. Nobody could remember a death penalty case in any state where the original trial prosecutor called for a new trial. I interviewed Jeff Wallace three different times, with four hours of on the record conversations. Jeff was accessible and generous with his time, but he was also careful with his words.
00:17:35
Speaker 5: I still am personally satisfied that the evidence showed to Forest Johnson to be yuilty. Of course, my opinion is based in a large part on the testimony of the Violet Ellison that I saw at trial. But there's a in my opinion, there's a reason to look at it again.
00:17:57
Speaker 1: This is what I mean by careful. He says the evidence at trial showed to Forrest to be guilty based on Violet Ellison's testimony, but he also says the concern he had about Violet Ellison's credibility is why he supports the call for a new trial. After my first conversation with Jeff Wallace in twenty twenty one, I did a lot more investigating into Violet Ellison. I asked to speak with Jeff again because I wanted to share everything that I learned. We also found that, in addition to being a witness in this case, Violet Ellison has been a witness in four other criminal cases in Jefferson.
00:18:43
Speaker 3: County after Johnson Couch, Before.
00:18:47
Speaker 1: During and after, I tell Jeff about the other cases where Violet Ellison was a witness for the state and that the defense accused her of lying to police and under oath. He listens politely, But what I really want is for Jeff Wallace to hear some clips of what people are saying about Violet Ellison, the star witness he put on the stand, the same witness he now has questions about, do you have any interest in listening to what we found?
00:19:27
Speaker 5: You don't?
00:19:29
Speaker 1: I find that like astonishing?
00:19:33
Speaker 5: I don't know.
00:19:33
Speaker 1: Can you please, can you explain why you don't want to hear.
00:19:36
Speaker 5: What we found. I'm not the prosecuting attorney in the case, or for that matter, of the defending attorney. Of course I couldn't be. But oh.
00:19:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, but Jeff, I mean, you tried this case and you ask the jury to sentence him to death and he's on death row.
00:19:58
Speaker 5: That was the state of the evid when I was standing on the court.
00:20:01
Speaker 1: Run the evidence hasn't changed in your mind after what we've told you.
00:20:10
Speaker 5: No, I think evidence has change, but it's no longer my responsibility.
00:20:19
Speaker 1: In a way, He's right. The responsibility of all death row cases after conviction falls to Alabama's Attorney General, an elected position that represents the entire state, unlike district attorneys who represent a single county. The current Attorney General in Alabama is Steve Marshall. He could listen to Danny Carr and Jeff Wallace and allow a new trial for to Forrest Johnson, but instead, the AG's office calls this a subjective opinion that does not raise an issue of extraordinary public importance or any compelling circumstances. Marshall's office is still actively and aggressively fighting to Forest's appeals and seeking his execution. These conflicting positions make me think of those big metal grain silos that you see in the Midwest, with each party in our criminal justice system in its own silo, isolated from the opposing view, trapped in their official position. I talk with Jeff Wallace about this dynamic. It does seem like there are a lot of silos that people are in in the system, and they stay in those silos. Does that make sense?
00:21:55
Speaker 5: It does? And if a silo is that you cannot climb out of, then that's where I am. I've told you what I think if it were legal and it were presented to me, Uh, would you or would you not order a new trial? Mister Wallace, I've signed it today and order a new trial. But the thing you're calling a silo, my silo is a retired former prosecutor who happened to have been in charge of this case at one time.
00:22:24
Speaker 1: So why can't you climb out of the silo?
00:22:28
Speaker 5: What silo would I climb into? I can't be a depellate judge, I can't be the defendant's attorney. I can't be a juror, can't be the defendant.
00:22:41
Speaker 1: What if we just all climb out of our silos, and nobody's in a silo anymore. If we're all just kind of out in the open.
00:22:49
Speaker 5: Well, the law has set up these silos and the law is still in effect.
00:22:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's this quote on the outside of the Jefferson County Courthouse.
00:22:59
Speaker 5: That we're in bondage to the law in order that we may be free.
00:23:03
Speaker 1: That's it. We are in bondage to the law in order that we may be free. It's a quote from Roman philosopher Cicero. Why do we have to be in bondage to something to be free?
00:23:17
Speaker 5: Either we have laws or we don't. Which way do you want it?
00:23:22
Speaker 1: I guess one thing that we've been thinking about is like, what is the cost of that bondage? And is it that sometimes you end up with situations like this?
00:23:37
Speaker 5: I sure hope not. But the law is the law. No, one don't want to present me that piece of paper and ask me whether I would order a new trial. I'm in bondage to the law.
00:24:01
Speaker 1: You may see Jeff Wallace's support for a new trial as a half measure. He could call the case an injustice and take more accountability for his role into Forrest's conviction, but a trial prosecutor saying anything that calls a conviction into question is exceptional. There's no incentive for Jeff Wallace to say a word, no framework for prosecutors to voice doubt, or space for regrets to count, and yet Jeff Wallace still chose to speak up when he didn't have to say anything at all. In this project, we tried to answer the question of how an innocent man ended up on death row. We laid bare an investigation that was rushed to conclusion by tunnel vision and pressure to convict someone, anyone, for the murder of a deputy sheriff. This case shows us how young, marginalized people like Yolanda Chambers can be exploited, and how money is wielded as an incentive for vulnerable people to become ensnared with law enforcement. It also demonstrates the terrible consequences for people who can't afford to pay for the best criminal defense. So far, the courts have said there was nothing illegal about what the state did, presenting five different theories about who committed the murder, and paying the key witness behind closed doors, only admitting to this payment seventeen years later. This is how our system works. According to the courts that have examined to Forrest Johnson's conviction, it's not broken. It's working exactly as designed.
00:26:12
Speaker 10: They say that you presumed innocent until proven guilty, and that.
00:26:16
Speaker 1: Is the law former Attorney General Bill Baxley.
00:26:21
Speaker 10: But deep down, people don't believe somebody is innocent until they've proven guilty beyond regional doubt. They think that they had to do something or they wouldn't have been arrested and wouldn't have been indiced, and wouldn't be there.
00:26:39
Speaker 9: Not only do they presume people guilty, but they look at these people as expendable.
00:26:44
Speaker 1: Richard Jeffy, who represented Ardregis Ford, when.
00:26:48
Speaker 9: The system failed to Forrest Johnson, it betrayed all of us. To fores Johnson is as innocent as anyone could possibly be. Deputy Hardy would never want the wrong person to be convicted for his murder.
00:27:10
Speaker 1: After Jeffy's client, Ordregus Ford was acquitted, he lived a quiet life, mostly in Atlanta. His mother, Joyce Ford said to Forrest's conviction wade on her son.
00:27:25
Speaker 8: He never talked about it. He was strong. He never talked about it, but you know, you know he would get quiet at times. He will be rolling in the wheelchairs, go sit quiet with his head. Now, you know it took him a while to try to overcome it. You never overcome it, but so you know he had his days, you know, through it all, through the grace of God it too. It was a long, hard bell But I would never wish that on a mother.
00:28:03
Speaker 1: Ardregis died from health issues in twenty twenty one. His mom, Joyce Ford, died less than a year after we recorded this interview. I've been reporting onto Forest's case since twenty nineteen. I've interviewed dozens of people, but the one person I'd still most like to talk to is the very person I can't reach. Alabama's prison system doesn't allow people on death row to talk to journalists. To Forest's family has shared dozens of digital photos with me that I've kept in a folder on my laptop. There's to Forest as a baby wearing a tiny suit, as a skinny kid wearing a bow tie, and so many photos from visits at Holman Prison with his arms around his family. And I know the closest I can get to him is through the people he loves the most, his kids.
00:29:53
Speaker 13: Podcast and I've been, you know, writing about your dad's case for about two years now, so I'm so happy to finally see y'all and meet y'all and you get to hang out with you.
00:30:04
Speaker 1: Especially in October of twenty twenty one, I asked to Forest kids if we could all get together and talk. So we meet up on a Saturday afternoon at his oldest daughter, Shanee Pool's place. It's a light filled condo in downtown Birmingham. Her golden doodle named Banks, meanders around wagging his tail at everyone, and his kids immediately start to share memories of their dad.
00:30:33
Speaker 8: I remember going and real Eliza how short he was though he's so short when we took a picture on side of each other.
00:30:41
Speaker 2: He's so short, you like tower omer daddy, and I'm his same height. I'm Shane Pool. I am the oldest daughter of the Forest.
00:30:52
Speaker 1: Shane has his smile.
00:30:55
Speaker 5: I'm Maurice Myers, and I'm the four oldest, the farest.
00:31:02
Speaker 1: His son Maurice Myers has his eyes and nose.
00:31:08
Speaker 7: I'm Tremayan Pierre. I'm the oldest cub.
00:31:12
Speaker 1: His oldest child, Tremaine Perry has his voice and laugh.
00:31:18
Speaker 2: And I'm a curriolalla in him the baby cub.
00:31:21
Speaker 1: And Akiria, who goes by Muffin. His youngest looks like she could be a twin to t Forest and his younger years. To Forest has one other son named Robbie Foster, but he was unable to join us for this gathering because he was living in Colorado at the time. He also looks like his father's twin. An inside joke is these siblings all share a common attribute from their dad.
00:31:50
Speaker 5: My head. Man.
00:31:51
Speaker 7: We all got these big heads.
00:31:52
Speaker 1: If you haven't known, forehead.
00:31:54
Speaker 7: That's what's really big, is the forehead. He blessed us all that. That's why I grew my hat. So I know I was the oldest old I saw maybe a lot more than they did, you know what I mean, But it I knew what was going on, like when I stopped seeing 'em. You know what I'm saying, Cause they told me, like right off the bat, So how old were you when he bru about six or seven?
00:32:32
Speaker 1: Okay, this is Tremaine, the oldest cub.
00:32:37
Speaker 7: I was getting ready to to ask my mom to take me into my pop's house, like I wanna go, s I wanna go with my daddy. This weekend, and she's like, you won't be able to go this weekend cause you won't he not gonna be there, So like, what you mean, well, he at I wait on to come back. She's like, Nah, it might be a minute before he come back. And that's when I end up calling my grandma and she just let me know what was going on just right then, and that, like that kid kind of killed my spirits, you know what I'm saying. I don't. I'm thinking like if he ain't did nothing wrong and while he gone, I could never get an answer for that. Nobody could ever answer that, you know what I'm saying. So just knowing that this man is setting behind bars twenty plus years for something that he didn't do, like that's heartbreaking.
00:33:29
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:33:30
Speaker 7: Yeah, you are to think about how life would be if it hadn't happen, if things could be reversed. You think about a lot of stuff, but you can never get that, you know what I'm saying.
00:33:48
Speaker 1: Shaney also remembers trying to put the pieces together about why she had to go to the prison to see her dad.
00:33:56
Speaker 2: So I'm home with my mom and there I go visit my dad. But I didn't realize that that was normal until we get into grade school and I see children with their two parents home, and so now I'm like, okay, this is something that's not This is not adding up, something is not right, so you know, help me understand what's happening. And then it's like, okay, well he's away, but he's innocent, So what is innocent mean.
00:34:18
Speaker 3: I'm a kid.
00:34:18
Speaker 2: I don't understand what that means. He's there for something that he didn't do. Okay, well, why can't he just come home then? And so then I begin to get frustrated with him because I'm like, okay, well, if you didn't do it, then you could just come home. But clearly it doesn't work that way.
00:34:33
Speaker 5: And then as I got.
00:34:34
Speaker 1: Older, even though their father wasn't at home to Forrest's kids didn't stop seeing him. They would get in the car with their grandmother, Donna, to Forrest's mother to make the two hundred and ten mile drive from Birmingham to Holman Prison, three hours each way.
00:34:54
Speaker 11: I just remember I always riding there's all right, and I was so young, I was like, it's almost like you're driving the floora going down.
00:35:05
Speaker 7: There is in the middle of nowhere is no really no roll like to lead to anywell out there. Yeah, we took those trips.
00:35:16
Speaker 1: In Alabama, visits with men on death row are done in the visiting yard, the same area to Forrest met with his attorney Tie. It's called the yard, but it's indoors, like a big cafeteria lined with vending machines and Grandma.
00:35:32
Speaker 2: So what I remember is quarters. Grandma used to have a.
00:35:36
Speaker 7: Sage, the freezer, bags full of cords and nickels, all the change we can get.
00:35:48
Speaker 1: But before they got into the prison to see their dad with the big bag of quarters so everyone could get their favorite snacks and candy from the prison yard vending machines. To four kids had to go through prison security where guards searched them and patted them down.
00:36:07
Speaker 2: Look at thinking back on them up. And I didn't really think about this until now, just kind of how violating it kind of was with them because they had to search us like the same way. Yeah, and we were children basically touching all.
00:36:24
Speaker 12: Love you, and I was just like, this is a little weird.
00:36:27
Speaker 5: I'm not comfortable with your touching me.
00:36:28
Speaker 11: I mean, I'm just a kid, I'm not bringing nothing in you.
00:36:31
Speaker 5: So it was just real violating.
00:36:34
Speaker 11: I was like, I really don't want to come back, but I want to so I can see my dad.
00:36:39
Speaker 1: I just don't want you to touch me.
00:36:41
Speaker 2: But and we couldn't, you know, touch him whenever we were in there. So of course, you know, you want to sit on your dad's lap, you want to lay on them and hug on them, and you can't do that. You have to keep your distance from each other. And like Tremaine said, there's never enough time. It always seems like it's just we just got here, turn back around and get on the road trip again.
00:37:03
Speaker 1: The visits were just a few hours once a month at most, but it's where and how they got to know their father. Their relationships with their father are marked by both his absence and his presence. They admire his strength, the way he loves to hear about their lives when they talk on the phone, and how he never makes them feel like their problems are small.
00:37:34
Speaker 2: When he calls you and you just want to talk about the good things. And he's lived these life tuus, these alles, So now what's really going on? Like I can hear it in your voice, okay, princess, So I'm not right. And I'd never like to tell him anything bad because he's just there's nothing that he could do. But he's like, this is my way of being a father to you. This is how I can parent you. To allow me to do that, And then you feel so much better after you talk to him about it.
00:38:02
Speaker 1: Oh, he's gonna make you laugh.
00:38:03
Speaker 2: He's gonna make you laugh.
00:38:05
Speaker 5: I'd be like, Okay, I'm not mad anymore. Yeah, thank you.
00:38:09
Speaker 2: Right, And then it's hard to be mad, you know, it's hard to be angry or mad or kind of self sulk.
00:38:14
Speaker 1: Because and you think about his situation, right, and he.
00:38:19
Speaker 2: Always asks, so what you eat? I never want to tell him what I ate for dinner, never because it's I hate telling.
00:38:26
Speaker 7: I know he can't eat the same, you know what I'm saying.
00:38:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, but he wants to know what you made.
00:38:31
Speaker 2: He wants to know or he wants like what we did today, Like if you if you would be on the phone with Tremado Maurice. Yeah, I talked to Tremaana Maurice, uh the other day and they were out somewhere, but he won't say they were.
00:38:42
Speaker 1: He like we were so like he's.
00:38:44
Speaker 2: Living through my brothers, like whatever they do, he thinks like he's out with them. Yeah, we're human bodies like we are have been affected. These are men that missed out on their father raising them. These he's missed the birth of multiple grandchildren. He's miss milestones us completing college and getting our first big girl jobs and purchasing our first homes. Like these are really important things that he has missed out on. And so you have space and you have time between all of us that we literally cannot get back. Like there's nothing that we could do about it. And so at the least that you could do is take uh a be accountable for what was done. And I think that that's all we're asking for at this point. We're not trying to point the finger at anybody. We just we want true justice to be served and we just want him to come home and for there to be some type of accountability held. And it's frustrating, it's disheartening, but it's like, well, we just gotta keep fighting because we gotta fight for daddy. We gotta fight to get Daddy home. I think we bypassed of pointing the finger, and you know, we're still hurting, we're still angry, we're still confused. Have said, we have a lot of emotions, but we just want him to come home.
00:40:12
Speaker 1: Why is to Forest Johnson still on Alabama's death row? Why is he still locked in a cell when so many people, including the prosecutor who argued to put him there, are calling for a new trial. In early October twenty twenty three, the United States Supreme Court announced it would not review to Forrest Johnson's case, but to Forest's legal team continues to fight for him. They have appeals pending in both state and federal courts. This is where we find ourselves unable to tell you how this story ends. I plan to stay here with de Forest, his family, his children, his lawyers, and everyone else who believes in him will continue to hold him in the light of truth.
00:41:12
Speaker 11: This is a free call from before.
00:41:17
Speaker 1: An incarcerated individual at Alabama Department of Corrections. That call is not private. It will be recorded and maybe Migerg you may start the conversation now.
00:41:28
Speaker 2: Hey Daddy, Hey Brinda, Hi, what you doing.
00:41:34
Speaker 4: I'm good day, It.
00:41:36
Speaker 2: Was good long today. Still trying to get used to.
00:41:49
Speaker 1: To Forrest calls his family from prison whenever he can, but his oldest daughter, Shaney also keeps his cards and letters in a case Swiss shoe box under her bed.
00:42:04
Speaker 2: If I had to describe this card, there is a beehive on the front with a few bees buzzing around, and it's dated January fifth, two thousand and three.
00:42:18
Speaker 1: Like all the people who love to Forrest Johnson, his five kits and fifteen grandkits, his mother Donna, his aunts, uncles, and cousins, they read the words he sent them over the years when they need to hold him close.
00:42:38
Speaker 2: It reads, I love you and can't wait to see you and hold you in my arms again. You underlined are the reason Daddy has a spirit to get up every day and has hope that there would be a better day up ahead for me. And he says, Shaney, Daddy wants you to be a good young lady and too what your mother asks of you. I love you and I hope to see you again real soon.
00:43:10
Speaker 12: Be good?
00:43:10
Speaker 3: All right.
00:43:27
Speaker 1: To learn more about the fight to free to Forest Johnson, sign up for updates and learn how you can help, visit the website created by Greater Birmingham Ministries for to Forest. It's to Forest Johnson dot com and a special thanks to the family of to Forest Johnson, who have generously shared so much for this series. Ear Witness is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number One. Executive producers are Jason Flom, Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wardis, and me Beth Shelburne. The investigative reporting for this series was done by Me and MARAA McNamara. Producers are MARAA McNamara, Hannah Beal, and Jackie Polly. Kara Kornhaber is our senior producer. Britt Spangler is our sound designer. Additional story editing from Marie Sutton, fact checkhelp from Catherine Newhan, and special thanks to to Forrest Johnson's legal defense team. You can follow the show on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and Twitter at Lava for Good. To see behind the scenes content from our investigation, visit Lava for goood dot com slash ear Witness
00:45:21
Speaker 5: M
