What (Some) Women Say in Therapy
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PocketCasts In our follow-up episode Kristy and Jerry consider what we often here from women in sessions regarding being in a couple/marriage/parenting arrangement. We conclude with a seemingly spontaneous -- and annoying -- fight, showing how alternative ways of expressing/reacting get you better results.
Hi, you're listening to
LoveWork:Skills For A Relational Life. I'm one of the Co-hosts, Jerry Sander. My other co-host is out in Utah, Kristy Gaisford. Hi, Kristy.
Kristy Gaisford:Hi, how are you, Jerry?
Jerry Sander:I'm great. We are talking about a follow up to last podcast, and an important one, what do women say in therapy, and I'm going to be quiet for a bit.
Kristy Gaisford:You want me to start with the first thing
Jerry Sander:I do want you to start, we both have our ideas, but I'm going to listen.
Kristy Gaisford:Okay, the first thing I wrote is that, it seems like my husband has no idea what I do all day. He just thinks that I have nothing to do. And obviously, we're kind of talking about more traditional partnerships today, but because there can be many variations, but one of the things I hear he has no idea what I do all day. And what he's not aware of is that every, all the kids emotional, physical, educational, medical, dental, social, all these needs fall on me. And I'm constantly juggling, whether I'm talking with scheduling or talking with a doctor's office, or the school or a counselor, or a tutor, or dealing with friendship, drama, and the emotional needs take a huge toll. And I'm helping this child with this. And I'm talking to this child for two hours, because their boyfriend broke up with them. And they're so upset. And there's just so and then I'm running this one to sports, and I'm sitting at this game for an hour and a half. And then I'm rushing over to this piano lesson. And I there's so many things I'm trying to keep in the air. And then he comes home and says, Is there anything for dinner?
Jerry Sander:I'm appreciating hearing this, that a woman may feel that if she's not at the kind of job that her husband is that he views it as well, "You're not working. I'm working. What do you do all day??" And I think the correct answer to that
is:why don't you ask? Why don't you inquire?
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, yeah, let me tell you. Yeah.
Jerry Sander:You just gave us a list that like is, you know, considerable. So all you have to do is ask, but not ask like, what do you do all day? You ask? Like, what is it? It's what I always ask my clients to start sessions. What is it like being you? What is your day like?
Kristy Gaisford:Yes, curiosity goes such a long way. And I think we all want our partner to be more curious about us. Like, don't just assume that, you know, what, what we're doing or ask me.
Jerry Sander:Okay, that leads into my number one. Okay. This is all first person in the voice of a woman. I asked about his day, and he tells me what he did. Instead of how he feels about anything. It's like trying to read the mind of a rock
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, she wants more emotional connection. Tell me tell me what it was like to feel like you're not just what did you do?
Jerry Sander:That's that's huge. I mean. So what a lot of guys do is reportage you know, I went here is 20 minutes late. This happened, this happened. What else do you want to know? And there is a lot the other person wants to know, like, what is it like to be you? Are you happy? Are you miserable?
Kristy Gaisford:You know, um, I like it when you do that exercise I like to do it to like, spend four minutes because some men aren't even thinking about how they feel. But just having them do this exercise over and over, they start to be more aware of what they're feeling throughout the day and what they're experiencing. Because some level of awareness is necessary to to be able to share
Jerry Sander:So in keeping the focus on women, women, it seems Is it fair to say that women have to ask, that women have been raised to hold their feelings as a very important part of their life.
Kristy Gaisford:Yes, it's how we connect with each other. Yeah. Do you want me to say my next one?
Jerry Sander:Yeah, please.
Kristy Gaisford:Okay, so a woman has a woman will say I, I'll tell my husband something about how I'm feeling and expressing myself and he'll either not say anything. And he'll just be kind of distracted like, hmm. So I don't feel like he's listening. Or if he does listen, I'll he'll want to fix the problem. Right away, well, why don't you just do this? We'll just you should just do this. And they're not really listening to with empathy like I want. And then, or they'll tell me why I shouldn't feel the way I feel. Oh, no, you shouldn't feel sad, because data, data, data data. And I, I don't feel like I can just express myself and be heard. And then the last complaint, this all goes together sorry, is if I make a request, or any kind of complaint about him, my husband, he immediately gets defensive. And says all the reasons he's a good husband. And it negates all of my feelings. And what I think every woman wants, okay, this is a big drumroll. They want to be able to express their feelings. It made me sad, when you didn't include me in this, whatever. They want their husband to say, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry. I wasn't thinking. But now that I see it, from your point of view, I can see why that that was really hurtful. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. Is there anything I can do to make it up to you?
Jerry Sander:Wow, that's huge. You know, what phrase rang out at me when you said it is now that I can see it from your point of view?
Kristy Gaisford:Yes.
Jerry Sander:That's a big jump for a lot of people. Because we dig in and explain it from our own point of view, and then redouble our efforts to help the person understand our point of view, and triple our efforts to explain our point of view and get defensive
Kristy Gaisford:And why they're wrong. about our point of view, They're wrong, because they don't see your point of view.
Jerry Sander:So you're saying we have to step out of our own point of view? For a minute, just for a minute. And imagine being that other person? That's that's an acquired skill, isn't it?
Kristy Gaisford:Um-hmmmm.
Jerry Sander:U nless you were raised that way.
Kristy Gaisford:And just to say I'm sorry. I mean, it's so much it becomes like, oh, I can't believe you're getting upset about that. Don't Don't you know, the other day that you did this, and this and this, and, or I, you know, all the good things that I just done for you, and you're gonna find out what did I did wrong?
Jerry Sander:What is that attempt to even the score?
Kristy Gaisford:I don't know. But it's exhausting.
Jerry Sander:Yeah. There is no score. It's just someone with upset feelings who you care about?
Kristy Gaisford:Well, it's that it's that inner child part of us that just wants to be right all the time and doesn't want to have flaws. And so we just immediately get defensive instead of accepting. Yeah, I'm an adult. I'm an adult, and I have I do things wrong sometimes. So I'm sorry. We, I don't know why it's so hard, but it is.
Jerry Sander:Well, you have to be secure in your own in who you are, to be able to step out of it. That occurs to me anyway.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah. That's true.
Jerry Sander:All right. Here's my number one. Ready?
Kristy Gaisford:Yes.
Jerry Sander:He doesn't believe in foreplay, I guess. As long as he gets off all is well. It isn't.
Kristy Gaisford:That goes along with with mine. It's a little different. But mine was. You try feeling sexual after you've been mauled by kids all day long and touched constantly. And run ragged. You try feeling really sexual and excited at 10 o'clock at night?
Jerry Sander:That's a really interesting contrast. You know, I don't think men have anything like that level of experience of someone hanging off your body, you know, sucking at parts of your chest, you know, and just glomming on to you and needing hugs all the time, and their noses wiped and stuff. And we just have a different body experience.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, it's it's a very intense time for a woman when she has small children, especially
Jerry Sander:Now we're presuming again, a kind of heterosexual normative thing where the woman is doing most of the child rearing, which is traditional, there are guys who put themselves out there to take on that role while the woman goes out and works that that does happen too.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, and more and more women are going out and working to but it's
Jerry Sander:Well, wouldn't it be interesting to hear if that guy feels that way at the end of the day. "I don't feel sexual because I've been dealing with kids all day." But anyway, I do. I do get I totally get that that you've when you've been grabbed and latched on to all day long doesn't lead towards sexual feelings. Oh my gosh, is still summer. So time to do the surf dance. In your car in your living room. Don't you wish you could play guitar like that? You probably can. Anyway, Kristy and I are going to be doing the essential relational skills bootcamp in person in Warwick, New York. That's the Hudson Valley on June 25, and 26th. Then in the Zoom cloud of lands, July 9, and 10th. And then back again in person in New York City on October 1st and 2nd. We will walk you through how to begin making these changes in your relationships in a positive direction. So go to our website, Loveworkrelationships.com. Click on how we help scroll down to relationship boot camp, you'll find everything you need to register and join us in person, we welcome the opportunity to work with you. Now back to us. My third one was -- wait, it's your turn!
Kristy Gaisford:No, you go ahead because I
Jerry Sander:No, it's your turn.
Kristy Gaisford:Well I added with the sexual...so please.
Jerry Sander:Alright....my day is never done. There aren't enough hours in the day.
Kristy Gaisford:Huh? Did you? Did you read that off of mine?
Jerry Sander:No, we haven't shared it.
Kristy Gaisford:I wrote something just like that. And it's also how I feel. There's just there's so see, I think it's interesting what we just said about in the men podcasts, they want to feel like a priority. Yeah, because I think women want their their husbands are a priority. But they also feel stretched so thin, that they feel kind of desperate, like everybody needs me. Everybody wants something from me all the time. And I don't, there's only so much I have, there's only so much time and so much of me to give. And so they can start to feel really overwhelmed. Like, I want to go home to bed, and I want to be having time with my husband. I also have maybe a 13 year old who's really sad and a 15 year old who's failing math, and an 18 year old who's stressed about getting into college and I'm going from person to person, and then I crawl in bed and my husband's like, Where have you been? I mean, I think women feel very stretched, stretched very Yeah,
Jerry Sander:Yep. I think this is a critical...I want to slow this one down. Because this is the stuff that has the potential to really break up people and destroy relationships. Having children at all, and raising children, especially nowadays, is very stressful. And it doesn't let up into you know, by by definition for 18 years, you know, but there's still an economic stress. So they're 21. So you're looking at 21 years of stress. How are we going to handle this? Now, obviously, some periods are more stress than others when they go off to kindergarten. It's wonderful and exciting and liberating. And when they go off to college, it's even more so. But this feeling that I either make an allegiance to my children, or I make an allegiance to my spouse is sort of a false dichotomy. And if you totally embrace, I am going to put my children first and foremost, always all the time always. Then you end up with one person feeling like lower than the dog in terms of status in the household. And once that's confirmed, yeah, I do think of that person is lower than the dog. And it just continues. I'd say the marriage is in real trouble.
Kristy Gaisford:Hmm. Yeah, I think it'd be helpful if we could speak up too and talk about it more and say, Hey, I'm drowning here, I need you to be more involved in helping me with this. Because I also...
Jerry Sander:Now that....that's such a lifesaver.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah. And sometimes, maybe maybe the man, I know, we're stereotyping, but that's what we're doing today. So maybe they don't know where to insert themselves. Maybe they know, they're not as good at it as their wife who's got a closer relationship in some ways, because they're in the date day in day out with these kids. And so they're kind of feel like they're on the outside, but they need to be invited in.
Jerry Sander:And allowed to do things not the same way or as well, quote, unquote, as the woman might do it. You know, we've talked about patriarchy in the past this system of belief that many people, we were all raised in, under patriarchal assumptions, that men have certain abilities and skills that are superior to women. And that this results in this system where men are supposed to do this, and women are supposed to do that. So you would think that would be challenged and be gone by now. But it's still persists. So the important thing about it is that women actually collude in patriarchy, to keep those myths going, as well. So on the most mundane silly level, you get a guy who says, I'll load the dishwasher after dinner, don't worry about it. And does. And the woman looks at and goes, this is all wrong. You know what? Just don't even know. I don't even try. I'll do it. I'll do it because you do it wrong. And the guy says, How can you load a dishwasher wrong? Just load it, put it into soap push start? And isn't it a nice thing that I just did it for you? And the partner saying no, you did it wrong. So So and then the guy thinks, well, then forget it. She says she wants me to help. What do you mean by help? And I think that's an important question. What do you mean by help? Might not be the dishwasher? It might be a lot of other things. But you have to make an honest inquiry. Because if you don't, and your spouse is drowning, and you're just acting like you don't notice that, how long before that marriage can survive? And I'll tell you what else doesn't? This is my personal experience, and it's painful. What else doesn't work to save a marriage at that point, is special trips with just the parents away for a fast weekend. That's nice. To be very nice. But it doesn't adjust the power dynamics in the home of what's going on.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, it's just a short little band aid. Yeah. Yeah. I think that I think the big thing, I honestly I kind of already said it, but I really think the big thing that comes up over and over in sessions with women is I feel like I can't see anything without him getting defensive. I feel like I can't ever have a complaint or I can't tell them that my feelings were hurt without oh my gosh, they do so much for you. It's never going to be enough. It's almost like if a woman says their feelings are hurt, the man will turn around and make them into this irrational, unsatiable crazy woman when it's not true, her feelings were just hurt. But they react to her as if she's this crazy person. And so then they get so defensive and upset, and it's like, can't we just take it down and just hear the person? Do you hear that from women?
Jerry Sander:I do. I do. I usually hear it in terms of he flies off the handle, and then he won't listen. He goes from zero to 60 in two seconds and shuts his mind down. You're right. But I am thinking as I'm hearing this, that what we do in the type therapy we do is help people move from complaint to request and figure out how to speak first person. So when you're approaching your partner saying you always to this or you never do that is so different from saying I feel alone. I feel overwhelmed.
Kristy Gaisford:I totally agree. And even sometimes when people say that, that the husband will say What are you saying that I ignore you? Like anything Yeah,
Jerry Sander:I mean, I'm not going to defend how defensive guys can get, because you're on a path. If you can't respond with openness, when your partner says, I am overwhelmed, I'm sad, I'm lonely, then the odds are pretty good, you'll be looking at some piece of mail with a lawyer's name on it in the upper left hand corner soon, because that woman has done everything to communicate with you in the non provocative way. I, I try and work to get my clients to say things like, I am overwhelmed. And I'm sad, and I'm lonely. So if someone communicates with you that way, it is a gift. And if you don't unwrap that gift, you'll be opening that letter from the lawyers. Yeah.
Kristy Gaisford:And maybe if if the men could hear it as my wife is just trying to connect with me, and tell me how she could feel happier. And all I have to do is listen and meet that need. It's it's not the end of the world. It's not a means for divorce. It's not the relationships over just because I hurt her feelings. It's just a time for me to repair. And that's...
Jerry Sander:That's a really good mantra, Kristy, that should be on people's in people's wallets and on their refrigerators. "My wife is trying to connect with me." That's presuming she is. Yeah. But if she is, yeah, that can, you can take a breath and step away from the defensiveness.
Kristy Gaisford:And the thing is, I think we can assume she is 99% of time, because when people come to their partner, when they are approaching their partner, even if they're doing it wrong, which won't be effective, but even if they're doing it wrong, they are trying to connect, they're trying to get be seen, they're trying to get their partner to hear, you know, they want to have some understanding in the relationship, Otherwise, he wouldn't be trying.
Jerry Sander:I think that's make sense that any trying that's authentic, or from the heart should be respected and rewarded and returned. Because they're doing, you know, your partner's a little bit of a mess. And you're a little bit of a mess. That's what we delve into in our boot camps. Where did that mess come from? Well, you're not to look too far. But to your upbringing and look to the society around you, of course, they're not going to make sense and get it right the first time the way they say it. But you do have that choice to get defensive. Or to remind yourself, this is someone trying to connect with me.
Kristy Gaisford:And I can handle it. Let me just hear what they have to say.
Jerry Sander:Yeah, how bad can that get? You know, they're upset anyway. You can feel it in the room, you're just talking about.
Kristy Gaisford:And the longer you listen, the more they'll Calm down, the less you say, in the beginning to better. you just listen
Jerry Sander:Now , here's where I have to give some props to our neurobiology people, which is how are you going to respond and which part of you is going to respond to me. So if you respond right away in that two tenths of a second, and the part of the brain that has that whoosh response is probably going to sound defensive, or energized in a aggressive way. If you take your time, and let it resonate what the person said to you, and brief, whatever you say next is likely to be much more calmer and inviting. And we've seen this with great therapists at work. The ones who just rush in there with like, young young therapists questions and pummel the client with questions. It's not the fact of like taking your time to let it all register. And then inviting someone to speak more, because so much better results.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, and remember this it's insecurity that breeds defensiveness. So do you want to do you want to lead with your insecurity? Or do you want to be a secure adult who can handle a little feedback now and then even when it's unpleasant, without without getting a rise without getting defensive and angry? Just okay, let me Yeah, secure adult and listen. It's the insecure child that gets immediately triggered and defensive.
Jerry Sander:Agreed. Okay, let's see my list of I think this sounds like what you just said. He acts like I magically know how to keep the house clean, and the kids happy. And that is my sole responsibility.
Kristy Gaisford:Mmm-hmmm. Ohmygosh.
Jerry Sander:Yeah. What does that bring up into you? Triggered?
Kristy Gaisford:You know, I feel so much empathy. Because it's so hard. It's so hard to be a woman and a mom. It's just, it's like, somehow we were just supposed to know what we were doing. And we're just figuring it out, at least for me. I feel like I'm figuring it out a day at a time and sometimes not very well. And how was I supposed to know? It's like, constantly have new problems thrown at you every single day, and you're just really trying to do your best, but you're definitely no expert. At least.
Jerry Sander:Where does this come from? That both men and women think that women are supposed to somehow know how to do all this stuff.
Kristy Gaisford:Where our mother is so good at hiding it that we just thought everything got done magically? I don't know. Yeah.
Jerry Sander:Yeah. But it's, we can say it's a new world now. And I don't know how to replace this piece of furniture just because I'm a woman. You know,
Kristy Gaisford:I remember when I had three little kids, and I was just figuring it out. And I was super busy and stressed and had a birthday party at my house for my little boy who was turning one or something and I'd made a cake and it turned out medium. Like everything I make. It wasn't amazing. They usually taste okay, but nothing seemed super pretty. And I didn't have like the right spatula for the to get the cake out. So I grabbed a cheese cutter. And my husband and my friend were like, what kind of housewife are you? The thing is, I was like, Okay, now I'm found out. That's exactly who I am. I have no idea what I'm doing. I don't have the right serving utensils. I don't know the names of the right things. I don't know how to decorate this cake like all the other moms like, Okay, you're right. You just outed me. That's who I am. And I don't know what I'm doing. Most of the time. I'm just winging it.
Jerry Sander:Did you rebound with some good self esteem then?
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, I mean, I think that there's a part of me that always feels that way. Because it's partly true that I don't have all those things that I just mentioned. And I still don't. But there's a part of me that doesn't care about that, because I value other things more than that. So I think I have an okay self esteem. But I realized that I'm not I'm not going to be one of those women that can throw the best wedding shower and have everything like perfect, and good good for those women. I admire them. I just am not one of them. But there's a lot of expectations.
Jerry Sander:It's so interesting that we we key in very quickly on what we're not good at. Like, when I asked clients to come up with a list, I used to do this with teenagers all the time, come up with a list of, you know, five, five things you're really not good at, they could do that like in a heartbeat. But list of five things you're really good at is harder. While I used to be good at this, I used to play soccer, I used to ride a bicycle, you know, people can repeat the negative stuff about them easier than coming up with what's authentically wonderful about themselves. So you may not be a wedding planner, you know, but what else, you know, you wouldn't be doing this podcast and helping people as the therapist, if you didn't have skills that were way different than that, and extremely important that you're good at. So we've got to remind ourselves of this, that we're good at some things and not good at other things. So what? Join the human race, you know?
Kristy Gaisford:We all have our things.
Jerry Sander:Yeah. So okay, so that was that...
Kristy Gaisford:Oh, yeah. Say maybe that's a good example of how women are pretty hard on themselves.
Jerry Sander:They are and society is hard on them. It's like if you stay at home and just do that you're sort of got people giving you an attitude because you're not out you know Some amazing career for an amazing career people give me a hard time. Oh, you're not home with your kids.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah. And I've done both. And I felt both. So I totally can see both sides of it. I remember...
Jerry Sander:Don't you want to just tell people leave me alone? Stay out, live your own life?
Kristy Gaisford:Yes. I remember telling people I was a stay at home mom, and then kind of looking for someone else to talk to. And then I remember telling people that I've worked full time. And it's like, oh, well, what are your kids do? And you feeling that the shame of oh, well, they probably do have some neglect, because I'm not there like you are for everything. So there's, I mean, you can feel bad no matter what you do.
Jerry Sander:Yeah. And then the essence of self esteem. One of the pieces of self esteem is, "Am I right? Am I the way a woman is supposed to be? Am I the way a man is supposed to be?"And we come up with these ideas of how they're supposed to be and we pummel ourselves with it. We don't. I just I love the answer that the feminist Gloria Steinem gave when she was 50 years old, some reporter said you don't look 50 years old. She said, This is what 50 looks like. Yeah. So whether you're working at home or working out of the home, or anything, this is what my life as a woman looks like. Yeah. Okay. My last one on my list was I'm lonely, and very tired. That's what I hear.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah.
Jerry Sander:Sometimes they add, and he doesn't even notice.
Kristy Gaisford:Well, I like that one. It's very painful. Yeah. But I think that goes back to a lot of the things we've said it's, it feels like a lonely burden. And when we try to talk about it, sometimes it's not met with any sort of empathy. It's just meant with, well, maybe you shouldn't be doing so much. Well, maybe you should do this. Or maybe you shouldn't care about that. Well, maybe, you know, it's like, I just need someone to see me and acknowledge what I'm doing. And maybe validate that it's a lot and you understand you're there for me, it would go so far. If our first significant other, could just give us some credit for what we do.
Jerry Sander:You are so right that most men will listen to a sentence like that I'm lonely and very tired, and immediately start trying to come up with ideas of how they can plan to be less tired.
Kristy Gaisford:And you know what that does? To a woman but maybe everyone in general, but is it brings up this angry feeling of what and tired and sad, angry feeling of Do you think I'm so stupid that I can't think of what I could do. Okay, I can't come up with solutions myself. The things I'm telling you aren't going to go away; can't get rid of the kids. I don't want to get rid of you. As my husband, I can't get rid of my job. And I don't want to. I just wanted to listening here for a minute.
Jerry Sander:And that goes to last week's last podcast we did about men when they're saying Why are they always on the phone or texting mothers, sisters and female friends? Well, if you can't hear that, and just support it in an emotional way, without trying to fix it, they will turn to other people who can just hear it and understand and identify it, support it. So there's thinking all these things that we've just said, are openings to growth. If we allow it to be an invitation to talking more between people, if we take it as just pronouncements, then it's pretty grim. But they're not. If these things are said aloud in a couples therapy. That's not a bad thing at all. That's a real positive thing.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, it's a place to grow from. Or, you know, it's been really nice doing these podcasts back to back because it's really interesting that both men and women are doing the best they can. They're both working really hard. And they both feel underappreciated, and unseen.
Jerry Sander:It's amazing, isn't it? Not seen and not valued? Yes. And that's because the week just has a rhythm of its own and We pay bills and we go to sleep and soccer and then it starts again. So we have to carve out, carve out some time, some places to express real appreciation for each other. And what we're doing, it's exhausting to me,
Kristy Gaisford:As I hear you say this to you, I'm thinking, we don't carve enough out enough time for ourselves. Like, where are this selves in these in these systems, too? It's like, running ragged without a time to breathe and think
Jerry Sander:That... that's, that's a future podcast, the relation between self and being part of"us." Yeah. How's that? Work out in a respectful, beautiful way for both yourself and the relationship? That is an advanced art?
Kristy Gaisford:Yes, it is. One that I have not mastered
Jerry Sander:We're working on your this art when people lean...When this is terrible, when I wrote my second book called unlimited calling certain restrictions apply. It was I like that title. Yeah, it was about a girl was trying to learn math. And I liked the book a lot. It was a young adult book. The radio interviewer asked me, how do you how do you find the time to do this? You've got four kids to get two jobs, how do you find time for it? And I answered like a whoosh answer."I'm selfish. I get selfish, I carve out time for myself." And I think I laughed. And when I listened to it, I got sad. But it was a fact that there was no way to live as a father of four, two jobs, coach soccer on weekends, and write a book without being somewhat selfish. Because every one of those moments that I spent writing could have been spent doing something else for someone else. And I don't know, looking back if I made the right decisions or not. But that's why it's, it's an advanced art. It doesn't come without a price when you act in the interest of yourself. And there is such a thing as being too selfish. But there's also such a thing as being a doormat and never writing a word in your heart. Because other people need things at this time. Y'know?
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, that's true.
Jerry Sander:All right. I think it's time for our fight. We have to have a fight.
Kristy Gaisford:Oh, yeah, you have to start it this time.
Jerry Sander:I have to start a fight? I don't really have a good topic for fight. Let me think. Common one. Okay. All right. So Kristy, when you say you're going to show up someplace at four o'clock? Do you really mean four o'clock? Or do you
mean 4:12pm?
Kristy Gaisford:Oh, my gosh. I think I
mean, 4:17? Is that what you're getting,
Jerry Sander:That would be more...that Jerry? helps? Because that's closer to what actually happens when you're sitting waiting for Kristy to show
Kristy Gaisford:Okay. Why do you have to do this? Like I'm just trying to...
Jerry Sander:Because...how many times do you do this, Kristy..? I mean, like 500 or something, you know, is the only choice for me to be quiet about it?
Kristy Gaisford:When you say it like that it makes me want to get there even later. It's like you're trying to shame me and control me. I just told you I'd be there at 4.
Jerry Sander:Why do you use like psychology language and I'm just trying to ask you to be accountable for your time. But this isn't about shame, or intersectionality or anything. It's about showing up on time. Because you said four.
Kristy Gaisford:I will try to be there at four I can't control everything that happens that you wouldn't really understand that but I will get there as close to four as I can. There's a lot of other factors that go into it and you think it's so simple but yes, I will try to be there for but I'm not going to promise you that I will get there right on time. It'd be easy if I if I were you I could get there for but I don't You don't have to pick up the carpool and so from the other town.
Jerry Sander:What are we having for dinner? And don't you feel close to me now? Oh gosh. That's miserable.
Kristy Gaisford:Yes.. Yuk, yuk, yuk. yak .
Jerry Sander:Alright, now we're going to repair it. We're going to do it way differently. Okay. Well, who's gonna make the switch mirror? Well, let's see.
Kristy Gaisford:I have to do it. Nice.
Jerry Sander:You have to do it. Okay. So I'll start obnoxiously as before, okay. So Christie, I have a question for you. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. When you say I will be at a place at four o'clock, do you really mean
like 4:12?
Kristy Gaisford:Very funny. Very funny. Okay. I mean, yeah, I very funny, Jerry. Thank you. I know that I have a habit of getting there late. And I'm sorry. I, I mean, for sometimes I know I show up at 412. But I know it bothers you. And I will. I'm working on it. I will try to be there at four. today. I will make a big effort to leave early and get there on time. Okay. I'm sorry.
Jerry Sander:I mean, was there...I don't mean to come off like a jerk. But like, was there something going on today that made it hard to do what you said?
Kristy Gaisford:Well, yeah, I had to go to the post office, because I had to get that thing off before tomorrow. And there was, yeah, there was a line and I knew I was going to be late. And I was worried about it. But I also knew I didn't have another time to go. And I couldn't speed up the line. So as long as stressful. But I'm, I'm sorry, we have had this talk. And I keep failing you in that area.
Jerry Sander:Yeah, it's not failing. I don't want to sound like policemen or something. I mean, it's just frustrating for me, because I'm not really good at showing up on time. But I do it at work, because I don't have any leeway I have to have to. And it's a stress. I don't mean to stress you more. But I hear that you're you're owning it. And you'll try. I guess you could always text me to like running five minutes late 10 minutes late. That would help. Okay, I could definitely be better that would help. I don't mean to be a maniac about it, y'know?
Kristy Gaisford:No, I understand that it's respectful of your time, because you're sitting there waiting.
Jerry Sander:I don't it's not worth dividing us. But just another thing. It's aggravating this week. You know, it's been a rough week, hasn't it? Yeah.
Kristy Gaisford:It's been a lot going on. That was better.
Jerry Sander:Better Way to live, isn't it? Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, so reasonable people. Reasonable people are late and reasonable people make mistakes, and reasonable people can repair.
Kristy Gaisford:We're all trying our best.
Jerry Sander:And we have to practice this over and over and over again. We're using the skills that we teach in the boot camps, and that we help people with an after the boot camp groups. Exactly what we just kind of do. Yeah. So we hope you'll consider coming to the Hudson Valley of New York, June 25 26th. And joining us for a boot camp yourself. Wonderful doing this with you, Kristy
Kristy Gaisford:You, too, Jerry. Thanks so much. See you soon. Bye.