That Third Day of Vacation Fight

Kristy (00:01)
Hi, welcome to Love Work. I'm Kristy Gaisford and I'm here with my co-host, Jerry Sander. Hi, how are you?

Jerry (00:07)
Hi, Kristy.

It's snowing. It's what month is this? February, it looks like January. It looked like December. You know, I'm tired of it. I wanna see some springtime. So other than that, I'm good. Yeah. All right, so yeah, topic.

Kristy (00:20)
Yeah, that'll be nice. So today our

topic is the third day of vacation fight. And I knew what you meant when you suggested this topic, but maybe you could explain how you thought of it.

Jerry (00:30)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, it was kind of neat that you just knew what I meant, you know? And I think a lot of listeners, when they just read that, like that third vacation day fight, know what I'm talking about. And I want to know, like, how do you know that? You're like, so I'll ask you that. Like when you heard that topic, went, yeah, like what association were you making?

Kristy (01:07)
I was just thinking about how you look forward to this vacation for so long and everyone thinks like, if I can just get to vacation, then we'll feel close and connected. And you, everybody, both of you have expectations for how the vacation's going to go and how you're going to feel and what it's going to look like. And then you get on vacation and you realize your partner had different ideas than you did. And you're still not feeling as close as you hoped you would.

Jerry (01:15)
Yep. Yep.

Yeah.

Kristy (01:35)
It's

almost like a bigger letdown because you had such high expectations. So that, you know, then you're like, this isn't what I was looking forward to, or this isn't how I was picturing it. Why are you being like this?

Jerry (01:39)
Yeah.

Yeah.

It's a perfect example of the fact that couples are complicated by the fact that there's two of you, you know? And I think it's a great example of stuff. I had written down here that a poor little vacation, either a week or two weeks if you're really lucky out of the whole year, suddenly is supposed to bear the weight of everything getting better, you know?

Kristy (01:57)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Jerry (02:20)
That's a big, that's a big ask. So I just saw something I took a picture of, it was online. I thought it was funny. Kind of relates to this topic. Someone posted, I want someone I can share my entire life with who will leave me alone most of the time. Isn't that good?

Kristy (02:40)
haha

my gosh, that is so funny. That's

Jerry (02:48)
I want to bring that to the boot camp too. think that's part of it. That whole

Kristy (02:50)
so good.

Jerry (02:51)
proximity thing, you know, like a one-o relationship is the best. It's great. We love each other and please leave me alone most of the time.

Kristy (03:00)
Well, I

think so many fights are about that, like this negotiation for closeness. How much is enough? How much is too much? And we're really tricky human beings. I mean, some people feel like I really need alone time, but I don't want you to go too far away. So I want you to be there when I need you, but I don't want you to encroach when I don't. And it's pretty tricky, you know?

Jerry (03:07)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. And I want

you to read my mind as to which it's gonna be today, you know, and on this vacation. So here's what I'm thinking that no amount of vacation you go on can undo or erase an ongoing process of resentment or exhaustion or feeling taken for granted.

Kristy (03:25)
Yes, yes.

Jerry (03:46)
in the relationship and it being unspoken. It's just not realistic that the Caribbean mountains, the Co, you know.

Kristy (03:51)
Yes.

Well, and I think

that's why it's so painful because you're sitting there on the beach in this beautiful location and you're like, I still don't feel any better.

Jerry (04:05)
Yeah.

And someone's given all their resources or both of you to like, this is now expensive. And it was the one thing we're looking forward to. And the mystery to me is like, why do these fights not happen on day one? I think on day one, everyone's so excited. Yeah, everything's new. look at that. Look at the restaurant here. You can do this. can, they have snorkeling. they have this, you know, and there's just this kind of like being thrilled.

Kristy (04:13)
Yeah.

Cause you're so helpful. Yeah. You're so.

Jerry (04:37)
Maybe day two is a tentative exploration of how we want to be at this place, but day three, it just comes out. And I thought, am I making this up from my own experience? And I mentioned it to a couple that was about to go to Hawaii. I said, don't have the day three vacation flight. They said, what are you talking about? And I explained it to them. And they came back and they said,

Kristy (04:55)
Yeah.

Jerry (05:04)
Wow, you were right. We had that day three vacation. Right. You know, so I, think this is, this is because like, why is this happening? It's because people have a lot they haven't said to each other and it remains kind of subterranean. And part of what they didn't talk about is the vacation, you know,

Kristy (05:08)
that's funny.

Mm-hmm.

Jerry (05:34)
And first of all, I want to qualify this like what kind of vacation are we talking about anyway? Is this with the kids? Is this with the dogs? Is this with one of our family members, you know, other family members, or is this just the two of us? You know, that's huge right there. And that can get sort of like glommed over like, let's go to so and so place this year. yeah, let's do it.

And then they're not breaking down. We're going to put the dogs with Maryann, right? Or something like that, you know, or we're going to bring the dogs or find a dog friendly place and every dog friendly hotel that you go to is like, so two stars compared, you know, like.

Kristy (06:22)
Right. So are you

saying they didn't even talk about what who was going on the vacation or what was going to happen?

Jerry (06:29)
Barely,

maybe, maybe, you or maybe it was something like, I'll ask my brother to come along, you know, or maybe my brother can meet us or something. And that becomes an item like, I didn't really want to spend three quarters of one of our precious days with your brother. Look.

Kristy (06:47)
Or your mother.

I didn't know you were inviting your mother again.

Jerry (06:51)
Yeah, and someone thinks, it'd be really nice. We'll be right near her. Ask her to come along, you know, for a day or something like this. So there's no bad guys in this formula. There's just like partially thought out, partially discussed kind of things. And I think this is one of the very first items is like, what are our expectations for this vacation? What?

Kristy (07:15)
And yeah, and even

if it's clear, even if it's just you and I are going to go alone to this beach vacation, it can still be things like you're at the beach and your partner's like, I'm hot, I'm bored, I don't want to do this anymore. then you're like mad at them for not being happy instead of just letting them be who they are and say, well, go do what you need to. I'm enjoying this reading my book.

Jerry (07:36)
Yeah.

Kristy (07:44)
We get a little codependent on vacation and feel like the other person's ruining our vacation if they don't like the same things we do or if they're complaining. And it can be really irritating. Like, why are you complaining? But that's where I think good boundaries are good and talking about it because it's true. It's like, why are you ruining this for me? And they're like, I'm not ruining it. I just don't like this.

Jerry (08:10)
Yeah. Like I wrote down several of the ways that one can per one person can see a vacation as one thing and their partner see it as something else. And here they are. time to read and nap versus time for adventure, hiking and discovery, or time to have some peace and quiet for myself versus.

Kristy (08:20)
Okay, let's hear it.

Yeah.

Yes, it's huge, yes.

Jerry (08:40)
time to connect and be intensely romantic and have lots of sex. It's kind of amazing how many men equate going on vacation with finally some romance and sex, extra sex, yeah. Okay, here's another one. Time to get centered and well-balanced versus time to get a little loose and slightly deranged and wild and crazy. Yeah, or

Kristy (08:44)
Yes.

Extra sex. Yeah.

That's a good one. Yeah.

Jerry (09:09)
wanting time just for us versus wanting the chance to meet new people and spend time doing things with them. Or the chance to go out and explore in a completely unstructured way versus the comfort and ease of an organized tour and group of people.

Kristy (09:18)
Yeah, that's good.

Yes, well planned, thought out. Yes, yes, yes.

Jerry (09:32)
Yeah, none

of those things are bad things to want. But yeah, and is it OK to talk about any of it out loud? Of course. But if you're not used to knowing how to do that and you don't usually do it at home, why would you do it on vacation? You know, that's why the fights are happening, along with the extra layers of anger, I think.

Kristy (09:37)
Mm-mm. Just different preferences.

Mm-hmm.

Jerry (10:01)
Like we spent so much money for this and we've been looking forward to this for three quarters of the year.

Kristy (10:10)
Yeah. Yeah. Another thing I think that comes up a lot is when work comes up on vacation. I thought you were, I thought you weren't going to work. I thought you took this off. I did take it off. It's this, this I'm getting all these emails. I just have to put out this one fire and then I'll be back. And then it kind of like creeps in and then the person who has to work is frustrated, but their partner is even more frustrated because they were expecting this time without any work getting in the

Jerry (10:17)
yes, say about that.

Kristy (10:39)
in the way and now they're having to spend time working. Yeah.

Jerry (10:40)
Yeah, that's huge, isn't it?

I remember the early days of the Blackberry phone. I don't know, maybe you're too young to remember that. Okay, so I remember an ad showing a phone on a beach towel and it said, now you can have the office with you wherever you go. Why would you go to the beach and want the office with you? That makes...

Kristy (10:52)
Yeah, I remember. I didn't have one, but I remember,

Why would you want that? I know, honestly.

Jerry (11:14)
Makes no sense to me, like zero sense. So you're right. Like, and this is a really big problem. I mean, even at restaurants, you, you've seen it and I think you've seen it. I've seen it. Like five people sitting at a table at a restaurant and four of them are on their phones. Just not talking, just staring at their phones. And one person's looking like really lost and abandoned, you know? So yeah, how much are we going to be on our phones?

Kristy (11:35)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Jerry (11:43)
doing work or catching up on news or something versus really being with each other. It's not a given.

Kristy (11:49)
Yeah, that's a good point.

Even just being on your phone and the other person was really looking forward to feeling connected and they feel like you're still checked out. And the person on the phone is like, I am checked out. This is what I wanted on vacation to check out. So.

Jerry (12:05)
Yeah. And if you talk about it and you plan it, like this used to be, by the way, this is not a problem in my life now in my current marriage, but in my first marriage, absolutely was like not talking about this stuff. And I remember how upset I felt when I paid for two weeks at an oceanfront Cape Hatteras house instead of our usual one week. And it wasn't good.

Kristy (12:34)
Mmm.

Jerry (12:35)
And I felt like this was an enormous sacrifice. But what I've come to realize is if you're having feelings of resentment about money and sacrifice and stuff like that about the vacation, it's probably there in other realms in the relationship as well about other things. Like about how much you pick up around the house, who does the cooking, every other dimension of relationship.

Kristy (13:01)
How much you're on your

phone at home too. Like the habits are the same. I think another problem that comes up on vacation is if you're with other people, like if you're with your extended family or kids, because I think a lot of times there's fighting where somebody feels totally torn and then pulls in the middle trying to please everybody. And maybe the partner's like.

Jerry (13:04)
Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

yeah.

Kristy (13:27)
And that person's like, why can't you go with the flow? Why are you being so difficult? We're here to get along with people. Why do you think this is about you? And the partner's like, because it's my vacation. Why are you taking their side? Now we're doing everything with them and you're not even listening to me. And that can be really hard to manage when you're trying to please a lot of people.

Jerry (13:37)
Yeah.

I think it brings out a lot of your personality and you're talking about a people pleaser or a codependent person who has that underneath their surface, just scratch the surface and there's the codependency. You can work the other way with a narcissist or grandiose person like scratch the surface of, yay, we're on vacation and there's the narcissism. You know, I wanted this to be about me and my time to relax and finally do what I want, you know.

Kristy (14:01)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jerry (14:19)
So it brings out kind of the quadrants in our terminology of where you go when you scratch a surface or you're not in that center of health.

Kristy (14:31)
Yeah, in my first marriage we used to fight because he would be really checked out before vacation and then the second we got on the plane he'd be like so excited and really into me and it was really hard for me to like turn the switch and then he would be upset that I didn't turn the switch like what what's wrong with you we're on vacation and I was like well you haven't even paid attention to me for weeks and now I'm supposed to just be all excited and I we used to fight

Jerry (14:47)
Mm-hmm.

Kristy (15:01)
I mean, I just remember a lot of vacation fights that had to do with that. I don't know, I'm probably not the only one who's had that experience.

Jerry (15:07)
Mm-hmm.

No, and I think we all have a degree. I don't think you're the only one at all. And I think we all have a degree. Any sensitive person has a degree of, think, codependency, which is just wanting to see how the other person is doing and what they need. But what's incredible is in my past, I would just try and mind read. I would never like utter a question like, you know, what do you need? What would make this better?

Kristy (15:35)
Hmm, I will.

Jerry (15:40)
It's almost like forbidden. It's like you're keeping up a front of, we're happy and we're on vacation. And you sense the other person that you're not, you know, in sync with each other and you don't know what to do about it. So I'm here to say that the work you do beforehand in the rest of your year is huge and should be done. Thus the boot camps.

Kristy (16:06)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (16:09)
By the way, Christie's doing a boot camp at Salt Lake City, March 1st and 2nd. If you want to like learn more of this stuff and practice this stuff, go to Salt Lake City and do it. So this stuff, the rest of the year makes it excellent to prepare for a vacation. So, you know, my wife and I were just looking at, we were just planning a vacation for September for.

Kristy (16:29)
Yeah.

Jerry (16:37)
going to England, Ireland, and Scotland. And we couldn't figure out like how to do, how to do all these places in a limited amount of time. But we finally, like we're at a healthy place where we can say, well, here's what I want. I don't want to just, I don't want to see London for three days and just like a city. I want to see some small Scottish towns. I want to see some small Irish towns. How do we do that? And so again, if you could ask, would you, and then it may or may not match what

Kristy (16:44)
you

Jerry (17:07)
She wants, but it did.

Kristy (17:08)
Yeah,

I often ask clients to talk about their expectations before a vacation just to eliminate these misunderstandings. Like, what are your expectations of this vacation? What are the things that you want to do that are important to you? What do you want to get out of it? What issues do you think might come up? Let's talk about those. Because it's true, if you do it beforehand,

Jerry (17:20)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I, yeah.

Kristy (17:35)
and you're in the mindset of we both want this to be good, then it's a lot better when it comes.

Jerry (17:42)
Yeah,

yeah. to have realistic, I know that doesn't sound romantic to have realistic expectations, but if you're a couple, say, that's been really struggling with an issue of physical intimacy or touch, and that's a real hotbed issue, and you're making a little bit of progress, but you don't wanna go too much too fast. If one of you is thinking, when we go on vacation,

that's gonna kind of solve it. It'll be like romantic physical sex time. And the other one's feeling like don't ruin the vacation with that demand.

Kristy (18:15)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, yes.

Jerry (18:26)
then they should talk about that ahead of time because it's got to be horrible to feel let down or betrayed or abandoned or something on vacation or pressured. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's not going to, it's almost like that video we play of the travel agent in the bootcamp, you know? It's not going to,

Kristy (18:39)
Or pressured. Yep, high expectations.

The same sad

you. If you're sad at home, you'll still be sad on vacation. If you're not connected at home, you still probably won't be connected on vacation.

Jerry (18:55)
Yeah, it's not gonna...

Yeah, I mean, that's a horrible truth, he said, remember he says, just remember about the pictures you take are going to have you in them, you know.

Kristy (19:09)
If you don't look good in a bathing suit at home, you probably won't look good in a bathing suit on the beach.

Yeah, I love that one.

Jerry (19:27)
Yeah, I think there's something about not getting outrageously nuts about what we expect from a vacation and then speaking about it, then it can really be enjoyed. If you're both in agreement, like, we're going to find a great little restaurant and take an adventure. And maybe it's not one we've read a Google review about, just see what that's like in some small town. If you can both get behind that, that's like really fun and exciting. So, and, and I think the same thing with activities.

Kristy (19:36)
Yeah.

Jerry (19:56)
I remember when, and here's where some compromise I think is really helpful. I mean, I'm a fan of compromise, you know, about activities. Like if I go on this one activity with you, then I would like you to kind of reciprocate and go see this music that you might not really be into, you know, but I am. So I remember in Costa Rica, we went on a nighttime insect walk.

Kristy (20:05)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jerry (20:26)
you know, like with little flashlights. And the person was saying, you wouldn't believe how many insects are out right now. Many of them poisonous. And by the way, Jerry, don't touch that tree. You know, and this was this was not my idea. No, this was my compromise. You know, like, of course, I will go with my wife, whom I love on this. And he took out a the.

Kristy (20:26)
Uh-huh.

wow. Was this when your idea?

okay.

hehe

Jerry (20:55)
tour guide took out a UV light, like a purple kind of light, like the tree that I'd just been leaning against, know, you like lit it up and there's a scorpion right on it, you know, just kind of hanging out. Yeah. And I'd been scared because I read on TripAdvisor what a beautiful place it was, but check your slippers in the morning to make sure there's no scorpions in them. And if you read

Kristy (21:01)
yeah?

No way.

Jerry (21:23)
One review like that, it sort of outdoes like 20 great reviews. It's like scary, right? So anyway, we had a really fun time because we were able to just agree on activities that might not have been our first choice, but that we definitely wanted to do the stuff together. And that's the goal is to like use your precious time and money to do stuff together and have fun. It's not an opportunity of vacation to even the score or

Kristy (21:28)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jerry (21:53)
you know, get real in your arguing or something. You should do all that work ahead of time.

Kristy (21:59)
Yeah, which also brings up money. I think that's something to decide ahead of time too, because that's another issue. Like we're spending so much money already and now you want to do these extra activities. And the other person's like, we're all the way here. Why wouldn't we do the extra activities? We might never come back. So like you said, they're not wrong, but it can be stressful if you don't plan before.

Jerry (22:04)
Yeah!

Yeah.

Right. No. Yeah, and you might want to relax

by the pool and read a book. you know, OK. So maybe we should maybe be helpful for us to do an argument and then show how it can be managed kind of mid vacation. That sound all right. Which it be arguing about some activity.

Yeah, you want to be the one who wants to read a book by the pool or you want to be the one who... Okay. Okay.

Kristy (22:51)
Yeah, I'll read a book, but I won't.

Yeah. And I feel like we've... Yeah.

Jerry (22:57)
I'll be the activity guy. All right. So I

just I don't know if you're done with we're arguing now. This is make believe here. OK, so I don't know how long you're going to take to finish breakfast, but I signed us up for that kayaking thing, the saltwater kayak thing with, you know, I know there's crocodiles around and stuff, but they generally leave you alone and it leaves at 11 o'clock. So there's enough time.

Kristy (23:04)
Okay.

Jerry (23:25)
think there's enough time for you to go back and get your flip flops and sun tail lotion and stuff. And then I'm going to meet down by the dock. Yeah, yeah, did. I paid, I'm paying for it. It's okay.

Kristy (23:30)
You already signed us up? Why didn't you ask me? Yeah,

but why didn't you ask me first? I feel like we've just been go, go, go. I was looking forward to just sitting by the pool and reading. I haven't had any downtime.

Jerry (23:39)
Well...

Yeah, but you can sit by the pool.

You can sit by the pool anywhere. I mean, this is like crocodile saltwater kayak, you know, kind of cool. You know, you don't want to fall out of the kayak. Yeah. That was awesome, wasn't it?

Kristy (23:55)
Yeah, I know. It's just that we already did the hike yesterday and

the waterfall and yeah, it was great. you say I can sit by a pool anywhere, but I never get a chance to sit by a pool because I'm always working or doing stuff. And I just was really looking forward to some downtime.

Jerry (24:14)
Yeah, but we're in Guatemala and, you know, I thought that kind of meant something. I thought we were like looking forward to it for like months. I didn't know you're going to be difficult, you know.

Kristy (24:25)
Yeah, I am looking forward to, I'm looking forward to sitting,

to having some downtime too. It's like with you, it's like, this is just getting to be exhausting. It's like all day long, you want an activity every single day. And I was hoping for a little time to just recharge my batteries. Like I'm open to some activities, but you're just like, you would do three a day if you could.

Jerry (24:46)
This is like a, it's like a, yeah,

and this is like a couples thing. It's like, I think it's called saltwater kayaking for couples with alligators or something, you know? And I don't wanna do it myself. Well, that's the exciting part, like to not get eaten by the alligator, you know, and just to see it. So I know it would be fun. So just come with me and do it. Yeah.

Kristy (25:01)
Well, I don't really want to get eaten by an alligator.

Okay, but you just assumed

I would want to go. Like, you need to check with me. I don't like it. just...

Jerry (25:16)
Alright, you know, okay,

alright, you don't want to go. Don't go. Don't go. I'll go. I'm sure there'll be some other single people there.

Kristy (25:25)
what is that supposed to mean?

Jerry (25:27)
I don't know, I'm just saying if we're not doing kayaking for a couple, then who else shows up?

Kristy (25:38)
Okay.

Jerry (25:39)
All right, that was good.

I don't know if they have alligators in Guatemala.

Kristy (25:48)
I don't either, I've never been there.

Jerry (25:50)
I think

so. I'll check that. Alright, so that went to hell fast, right?

Kristy (25:55)
Yeah, it could have gotten even worse, but we were contained.

Jerry (25:59)
Yeah. Yeah. You can see where that would go. It would be like, who is the... Yes. Guatemala has crocodiles, but not alligators. I stand corrected. Okay. Yeah. So that would have gone like...

Kristy (26:03)
Mm-hmm.

okay. Good to know.

It could have turned into a nasty fight.

Jerry (26:18)
You know that girl

down by the pool, I'm sure she's going on the single woman's going, you know. you noticed her? No, I didn't notice her at all. No. OK, so we're going to fix this, right? And I'm going to come in with the same level of excitement about the kayaking. OK. I hope you're almost done with your breakfast because

Kristy (26:25)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jerry (26:48)
I signed this up for sea water, salt water, kayaking for couples with crocodiles. And it leaves at 11. I thought it sounded really fun and I paid for it. So we're good. So I think there's enough time for you to get your flip flops. Yeah, you don't have to worry. You can just get your flip flops and suntan lotion and stuff.

Kristy (27:05)
Wait a minute, you already signed up?

I really wish you would have checked with me first. I was really looking forward to getting my book and just having some downtime. Yesterday was a lot and I just really wanted some time to read and just take in the sun.

Jerry (27:26)
Hmm. So you didn't really want to go in yesterday? You didn't even really want to do that yesterday? Is that what you were saying?

Kristy (27:32)
What?

No, I had

fun yesterday, but I don't like to go, go, go like you do. I yesterday was a lot. So today I wanted some downtime.

Jerry (27:42)
All right, I didn't

really hear the I had fun yesterday part.

Hmm. So you're saying, you're saying that I don't know what you're saying.

Kristy (28:00)
I'm saying that, you know, I was looking forward to this vacation and it's been great. But one reason I was looking forward to it is because I feel like I'm go, go, go at home and I was hoping for just like some downtime too. And I'm realizing now that we're here, that your idea of a vacation is a lot of activities every day. And I guess I'm saying I just need a little more downtime than it seems like you do. And

it's since you've already signed up for this. I'm happy to go on it. But can tomorrow can we take some time to just be by the by the pool and

Jerry (28:34)
Hmm.

Yeah. I,

yeah, I'm, I get it. it didn't really occur to me. I was just trying to do something for us. didn't really occur to me and I should have asked, I think, I think it's like sold out so they wouldn't have a problem, you know, giving up your space and giving me some money backs and stuff. would you have a problem if I went?

if I went by myself.

Kristy (29:10)
No,

no, I'm saying I will go but tomorrow can we have downtime? I don't want every day to be like this.

Jerry (29:16)
Yeah. yeah, definitely. We

could have downtime after we come back alive. know, we could have downtime. Yeah. I missed that. You're right. I get excited about, you know, stuff to do. Never been in Guatemala before. Man, I'm sorry about, I'm sorry I didn't check.

Kristy (29:37)
Yeah, thanks. Yeah, just ask me next time. I just like to feel like I'm part of the planning.

Jerry (29:39)
Yeah.

you're definitely part of the planning. did like a really amazing job getting the airline tickets and getting the ride to the airport and stuff. That was awesome. So, yeah.

Kristy (29:55)
Yeah, and

I know you like more activities, so maybe once in a while we can split up. We'll just have to talk about it.

Jerry (30:01)
Okay. Yeah. It's not

like my preferred thing, but you know, it just, I want us to both get what we want out of this place. You know, we work really hard the whole rest of the year. Really hard, really hard. And, I think we have our best interests at heart, you know, both of us. Thanks. Thank you. All right. Good.

Kristy (30:13)
Yeah.

I agree.

Thank you.

Jerry (30:27)
So what made that work? What made that turnaround happen?

Kristy (30:31)
I think,

I mean, I think assuming good intent and knowing that there isn't a right or wrong way to do a vacation, but just being able to acknowledge the differences instead of like place blame.

Jerry (30:36)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kristy (30:50)
It's like, how can we make space for both of us?

Jerry (30:53)
Yeah, it's like that social work saying differences are not deficits. Someone wants to sit by the pool and read in Guatemala and have an awesome time, memorable time by the pool reading it. Someone else wants to kayak different things. One's not better than the other. Yeah. Good.

Kristy (30:58)
Mm-hmm.

And one might come back alive and one might not. I'm just kidding. True, you could slip and slip and fall.

Jerry (31:19)
I'd fall off the lounge chair, crack your head, you know, like, don't know. I

don't think I would be comfortable kayaking with crocodiles watching me, know, piranhas. don't know. There's a lot. Yeah, you are. Oh, I saw a video of. I don't know where I saw it.

Kristy (31:31)
I wouldn't.

Kayaking, you're like right down at their level.

Jerry (31:45)
Some Mexican guy was out in the water with his son in front in a kayak, got swallowed by a humpback whale. then, remember? Yeah. And he sort of spit him out, I guess. He said, yeah, the kid was saying, felt all slimy and all I could see was like blue and stuff. So be careful on vacation, folks. But it is manifestly stupid to have a third day.

Kristy (31:53)
I saw that. It was on the news. Just, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was crazy.

That's crazy.

Jerry (32:14)
argument and waste your time and money that way. Just talk about stuff before you go. And if you need help, get it, right?

Kristy (32:24)
Yes.

Jerry (32:25)
We should mention, there was that article in the New York times Sunday magazine section by a couple who had gone for couples therapy with Terry real and done that type of therapy. it was a, it was last week. So it was in time for Valentine's day. But if you have access to New York times, I think it was called, I realized, what was it called? Yeah. And, just.

Kristy (32:48)
The problem was me.

Jerry (32:53)
What was interesting about it was reading, were 301 responses to the article in letters afterwards. And some people were upset that he seemed to blame himself or that not enough was said about her and her role in the conflict. But all I can say is she was the therapist herself and was probably less interested in getting all the personal stuff about her out there than he was.

And he was writing about himself and his own stuff. So of course we all have stuff that we bring to this. I've rarely seen a situation that's all one person being awful, you know? It's not, so we understand that, but it is important to be able to take responsibility. One of the letters in response said, so good to see a type of therapy that encourages people to step up.

Kristy (33:25)
Yeah.

Jerry (33:50)
and accept responsibility for their own actions in a relationship instead of wanting to be just coddled about it. yep. Anyway, come to one of the boot camps, March 1st and 2nd. After that, it's Midwest, East Lansing, right?

Kristy (33:59)
Yeah, I agree with that.

East Lansing,

Michigan, and then New York City, the end of April.

Jerry (34:14)
Yeah.

Yep. All right. Well, good speaking with you, Kristy. See you next time. See you. Bye.

Kristy (34:19)
You too. Take care, Jerry. Thanks. Bye.