Sex
Kristy & Jerry take on the wonderfully volatile, rewarding and challenging topic of sex within relationships. What does sex, in relationships, bring up for us? How do we reconcile our own desires, or lack of desire, for, and with, our partner? And just exactly how good could it be? What would happen if we talked about these things outloud?
Hi, welcome to our podcast LoveWork: Skills for Relational Life. I'm Kristy Gaisford, and I'm here with my co host, Jerry Sander. Hey, Jerry. Hey, Christy. Hey, how are you doing? Good. How are you today? Good. It's cold, very cold. Very, very cold, too cold, tired of winter? Totally. Well, today, we're gonna talk about every time I say that, I want to say, let's talk about sex, baby.
Jerry Sander:We're gonna talk about sex.
Kristy Gaisford:We're gonna talk about sex. Right? Yeah, in a relational way to like, how does this fall relationally in our lives? And what comes up in the couples that we see each week? What is a common theme that comes up about sex in couples? What are the sticking points? What's hard? What works? What doesn't work?
Jerry Sander:I have a question for you. Do you think sex is harder for couples to talk about the money? Or money is harder to talk about?
Kristy Gaisford:I think sex What do you think? Okay.
Jerry Sander:I don't know. I think both. It's like a tie. These are things they don't talk about. Right? Yeah. But they don't talk about easily or Well, maybe we can suggest how people can do that.
Kristy Gaisford:The reason I say sex is because often it's the elephant in the room. i Some couples bring it up. But a lot of couples don't even bring it up. And then I bring it up. That's right. And find out. It's a pretty sticky topic that they've been avoiding.
Jerry Sander:And that, you know, for any therapists out there listening, if we're not bringing up the question of sex, or exploring what sex is like, with this couple in front of us, why not? Why are we making believe? So I would just encourage us to go in this direction.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, I agree. So I did a little research, because people always wonder, how, what's a normal sex life? What's the frequency is normal? Yes,
Jerry Sander:they do. Yes, they do. I can't wait. I wish we had a drumroll here with a normal sex life is like,
Kristy Gaisford:well, this is kind of specific. But I also have a broader one, that this said 25% of couples have sex once a week. 16% have it two to three times a week. 5% of couples have it four or more times a week. 17% once a month. 19%, two to three times a month. 10% Not at all in the past year. And 7%, once or twice in a year.
Jerry Sander:What is the largest category then what's the largest percentage?
Kristy Gaisford:Once a week, but this kind of makes it easier? This was a different Survey said 31% have it a few times a week 20% A few times a month, which is you know, closer to once a week. 8% once a month, and 33% Rarely,
Jerry Sander:or never. I'm guessing this varies a lot with age. Probably not so much with social class or other economic things. But definitely with age and how long people have been together. Right?
Kristy Gaisford:They did set it say it declines with age the but people in their 70s and above are still have can't, a lot of them are still having an active sex life. So it doesn't go away.
Jerry Sander:And here's what's interesting is starting to be writings now about those people in their 60s and 70s. Saying this is when it starts getting really good. Like instead of declining in quality, it may decline in frequency, an increase in quality. Like, wow, that's really good. That's a very interesting phenomena.
Kristy Gaisford:It is it's very helpful to engage. I did see in social psychology, it said the magic number to sustain positive sexual sexual well being in a relationship is once a week. They said that when when, when surveys are done, people that haven't more than that aren't happier. And people that have Oh, that's
Jerry Sander:interesting. Yeah. People that have more than I am sorry. You're so exciting this information. People have it more than once a week are not happier.
Kristy Gaisford:No, they're not. They're not more unhappy, but it just doesn't increase your happiness. The more you have it as long as you get once a week. That was the magic number. If you had less than that, couples didn't feel as close or connected. But yeah,
Jerry Sander:I knew a couple of ones where he was under intense pressure, because she wanted it and demanded it every day. And that was an outlier case with these statistics. We should say that, you know, you've prepared like, five thoughts or reflections about this topic, and so have I, and we've not shared them yet. So we're gonna like, share them, and then take the time to discuss them each, I think, right?
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah. Do you want to start? Yeah,
Jerry Sander:my first observation is that I believe we have a basic template that gets formed early on in our lives as young people becoming young adults, or maybe even before we're in adolescence about what we think is sexually evocative. What what turns us on, is set as a template pretty early on. But there's flexibility as our life progresses in this can go in different directions than we'd ever expected. So the idea of fluidity about your sexuality as your life goes further, is something that's being written about more and more and understood, that can even extend to sexual identity to people who are suddenly exploring things in terms of attraction to the same sex or attraction to both sexes are feeling like they're a different gender or something. But that's my first point that we have a basic template for what turns us on, that tends to stay through life. But also, you can grow and expand in directions you didn't ever expect.
Kristy Gaisford:That's good. I think you're right. But I guess, do you have any examples? Because I'm kind of,
Jerry Sander:yeah, maybe it would be a man or a woman who find their way into traditional heterosexual arrangements, have kids raise the kids kids go off to college. And then after the kids are gone, they're suddenly in touch with a sexual side of themselves that they either didn't know existed, or has been left in the dust since they got realistic about raising children and got into sort of the groove of their sexual life. So when that raising kids part is done, it opens the door to what do I feel about sex and sexuality? And that might be reaching back even to when they were in college and things like that. So more x more exploration? Yeah,
Kristy Gaisford:yeah, I definitely see that I feel like sometimes it's almost dormant a little bit in those years, where they're just trying to get through and they feel really tired. And, and then maybe in their 40s, early 50s, when they have more time, they do have kind of a sexual awakening, like I've had, I've had couples that it's almost like, oh, I can enjoy this I can I can become the sexual being because for so long, it was just like, let's just get through it. Or let's just,
Jerry Sander:or let's lock the door or hope the kids don't wander in or someone doesn't wake up in the middle of the night throwing up or something.
Kristy Gaisford:Well, it's interesting, you brought that up, because I've had a couple of say, like, she won't have sex unless the conditions are perfect. And that means no kids are even home or they're only if they're in the basement and we know they're asleep. And there's no way they're going to come up and it starts to get one of the one of the partners get so discouraged that it has to be so perfect that he stops trying. Yep. Because it can be Yeah, I think that can be a hard thing. Yeah, the kind of regular same old pneus of what you have to get into when you're raising kids can become a well I guess this is you know, where sex fits in our life. And then the kids are gone. Anyway, so this was my first one. Okay, this goes right into it. I was gonna say, one thing I hear very commonly, very often in my office is men often say, I'm tired of always being the one that's pursuing and I just want to feel wanted by my wife. And I think that's a big thing. I think I hear it enough that I know it's a thing. They want to feel like their wife wants them and it's not just them that's always pursuing and sometimes this leads to I just stopped trying, I got so sick of being the pursuer and and maybe not even being rejected enough that I just stopped trying. And, but I also had a little caveat to this and it is, it's even harder. I think when the woman feels like she's always the pursuer, because of our certain cultural norms. There's, there's an added shame to I thought men were supposed to want this more than women. Why am I always the one pursuing?
Jerry Sander:That is an excellent point. And you're talking about both parties, were raised with certain expectations of how this is going to go. And that expectation of kind of patriarchal assumptions. Here's what a woman is and how she behaves. Here's what a man is how he behaves, in heterosexual relationship, ends up selling both partners out short, because where's the fun and excitement where one can reach for the other, and then next time, the other one reach for them? If it's your role, to be the reacher, there's a whole bunch of pressure on you, regardless of your sex. And if you're violating your role, seemingly by being the reacher, when women are supposed to just be passive and receptive, then that feels wrong, too. So it, I think that whole concept has to be blown up. And I would say blow it up, that you want to be happy. Throw it out. And there are some times where one person has more energy and more excitement than the other person. Yay. That's a win. I don't care really where it comes from. Whoever does a reaching just please someone reach you know?
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, I actually asked a group of women I said, Because of this, they said, Do you feel like you both initiate kind of evenly? How does it go and, and they all said that they all kind of waited for their husbands. And it was a lot of out of this what you're saying the tradition, the culture that not wanting to be rejected, feeling a little shy about being the pursuer.
Jerry Sander:Now, interestingly, this is all just thrown to the wind with the lesbian, bisexual and queer community. Because, you know, you could both have the same sex, or both some other things and one of the sexes, you know, so it can't really apply, like one of those persons is going to be defining their social programming. Both of them really are, by definition, and so they've already blown it up. So,
Kristy Gaisford:but they feel the same way the the gay couples that I've seen, they have the same feelings that one of them is more of the pursuer, one of them has a stronger libido the other one doesn't or isn't that the pursuer, they feel the same way. It's just one of them is the pursuer.
Jerry Sander:So I think that that speaks to the challenge of mixed level of sexual desires. Yes, you know that regardless of sexual orientation? And how is that to work and be negotiated? So it's not like a boundary infringement, or negative obligation myth? Let's set that aside for right now. That's an excellent, separate question.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, I think we should, we should just offer space for the pain of that. When there's a couple with a very different sexual desire. There's a lot of pain for both people. The person that doesn't feel it feels a lot of pain, like, I wish I could feel what you feel, I wish I wasn't disappointing you all the time. And the person that feels it feels this constant rejection because they, they want it more than their partner. And there's no easy solution. But it is it's painful.
Jerry Sander:It is. And to my surprise, I found in working with some couples that there are people who really don't like to be touched. They don't want to be touched. They're happy and happy as a clam when they're by themselves and kind of have a boundary around them. And they experienced touch as intrusive as answering someone else's need wasn't something they would think about. I mean, this is a low sexual desire, by definition, but it's also an aversion. They don't equate touching and snuggling with someone as intimacy. Mm hmm.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, I seen that too. That's a hard situation. Yep. To navigate. Yep. Yep. All right. You've got yours right. Now it's your turn .
Jerry Sander:Okay. So sex. sexual encounters are where our boundaries melt or don't and where our feelings are shared or not where feelings of pride versus shame come in. Fear, desire, all these things come out in sexual encounters. But we land usually with the experience of am I good enough? Do I? Look how attractive people of my sex are supposed to look? Am I okay? Am I doing this? Right? That's a huge one.
Kristy Gaisford:What I hear screaming out of that is the intense vulnerability that can come up by the sheer fact that, well, all the things but that you're naked.
Jerry Sander:Yeah. Partner most likely had other experiences other than you. And we're humans. So we wonder,
Kristy Gaisford:yes, we do.
Jerry Sander:But it goes to our own core issue of self regard. Do we hold herself in warm self regard? Do we know? You know, my, my body may not be the best one in the Western Hemisphere. But it's pretty good on a good day, you know? Do we feel that? Or do we feel shame? Like, I'm fundamentally not the way you're supposed to look? I mean, it's gonna happen with sex.
Kristy Gaisford:It is. And is it about how we look? Or can we go deeper to this is about connecting with someone I love in a very physical way. But it really isn't about what I look like, after all.
Jerry Sander:I love that you said that, because that's where women and men probably in a heterosexual relationship differ. that men are intensely focused on their looks and performance as compared to other men, and the way you're supposed to be. And if you ask a man to kind of just melt and set that all aside and connect an intimacy with a woman, it's very hard to get a guy to that place. If the more traditionally they've been raised, the harder it is, I think, to get to that place of don't worry about it, you know, and I've known people who've been like, body builders, who are the most worried. No, you'd think that they'd be least worried about how they look? Nope. They've been the most anxious. Am I right? Am I doing this right is, you know,
Kristy Gaisford:well, this is making me wonder, because I think women are very critical of their bodies a lot also. But does that mean the man is also being critical of the woman's body? Because you say,
Jerry Sander:I think much less so than you think. You know, there was these surveys in Psychology Today, up to a few years ago, I don't remember when they stopped doing it, where they would ask men, what the ideal body types for women were in there. They're asking straight men, you know, heterosexual men, what do you what are the body types of most turn you on? And then they asked women, what are the body types you think turned men on. And the women consistently got it wrong. They thought men just wanted skinny, skinny, skinny, skinny. And that was absolutely wrong. So that raises the prospect that women are more self critical, in general, in the direction of a magazine, culture, celebrity culture that celebrates thinness than men are, then then we're looking at your spouse, and if you're over the age of 20, you know, your spouse's aging have right alongside with you. And that all the things that age with you age with them, and you know, no one's got that perfect little body anymore. And it's less of a big deal. To most men, I would say, then, women probably no,
Kristy Gaisford:I agree. I read a study once a night, it said, What's the most attractive body to men? And their answer was confidence. And I think that is so true. A woman who just owns her body and is confident and comfortable in her skin. Yeah. Is is attractive. Yeah, more so than, than anything else. Really.
Jerry Sander:How does that work about men, though, about women being critical of men's bodies?
Kristy Gaisford:I don't think women are very critical as men's bodies. I don't think they sit and pick them apart. I think they're, they just, they're more interested in being loved and feeling cherished and emotionally close. And, and if you're, if you're kind and you're treating me well, then I want to be close to you. It's less about the physical attraction.
Jerry Sander:So you're saying that allows for a whole bunch of physical types, a whole bunch of sizes, a whole bunch of everything in the man?
Kristy Gaisford:Well, yes, but what I'm saying Obviously, there has to be attraction. Once you're married and you find, you know, you're attracted, the attraction for the woman comes through the emotional side of it.
Jerry Sander:I think it naturally does for men too, but we're socialized away from that. We just all her emphasis from when we're in eighth grade on and she's hot, she's hot, you know, like, just the, the commenting on the external guys are not like saying to each other, she's so kind. She's got so much confidence. She's really smart. You know, you know, like you're raising a special son. If your son tells you about their girlfriend saying, she's so smart. And she's so kind.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, that's so true. Yeah. Well, this kind of leads to my next thing. So I see this a lot. Also, with the couples I see. So unmet men, for a lot of men. Generalizing, the way they feel emotionally close to their wife is through sex. It helps them open up emotionally, the act of sex. And women often say, Well, I need to feel emotionally close first. And I can't have sex with him unless I feel close to him. So that there can be this standoff. That's really unfortunate, because she's saying, how do you expect me to want to have sex with you when you come home? You sit and play Xbox all night, you don't help me clean up, you don't help me with the kids. And then you come upstairs and you want to have sex with me? And I'm thinking, why would I want to have sex with you? You haven't even talked to me all day you haven't helped out? And he's saying like, how do you expect me to get close to you? And you're constantly rejecting me, physically? And I don't I don't really want to help out because it feels like you. You're withholding sex for me. And now I'm angry. And it's this. It's the standoff, I guess. Do you ever see that in your couples? Yes,
Jerry Sander:you're like, 150%. Right with this. I mean, I'm processing it, as you're saying it that the part that we men don't get, I relate to what you're saying that most men really relate to feeling loved by physical touch and affection and sex. Yes. And it's an alien vocabulary to us. That our the woman in our life is going to feel cared for, and kind of almost turned on by us doing things for her and with her around the house. I mean, that's just a bizarre concept to most men, you know, wait, you're saying you will feel more attracted to me, and turned on and ready for a sexual encounter? If I do the bird feeders, and I do the recycling, and they do the garbage and I pick up around this place like you really will, instead of sitting watching the wildcard game before the Super Bowl, you will really feel more for me. Wow, I didn't know that. And it's a great discovery. Because it doesn't I don't think we're socialized. Look, I mean, we're socialized to be selfish. Well, I was and I don't think this is just an older guy. Long ago generation thing. I think it's the same now. My mother did everything for me. She she actually cut the crusts off my peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Just I didn't like crust, you know. And then when I was about, like, 13, or 14, she became like a feminist and went back to college. And she was like, do it yourself. What are you waiting for me to do stuff for you? Like, yeah, I was waiting for you to do stuff.
Kristy Gaisford:I had to learn. Yeah.
Jerry Sander:Yeah, I was raised to be selfish and sit around. And so I think a lot of men do that. They'd like to always have the women in their life do stuff for them. And they didn't suddenly at age 18. Think, okay, now, what can I do for the women in my life? We don't think that way. If someone just keeps doing stuff for you. Why would you reverse that? So we then make the measure of you our relationship, whether you're ready to have sex with me tonight? And if you don't, wow, oh, wow. Really? You know, we don't put it together. There's a mutuality here. And that the things that are important to you may be the things different than what's important to me.
Kristy Gaisford:Right. And I think one thing women miss, I think women start to feel like, oh, no, you just after you didn't help now, You just want to use my body to satisfy your own urge or your own need. And they just feel like a body that needs to be used. And I don't think men feel that way. I think what the woman women miss sometimes is that That is how their partner wants to show them love. And they actually feel very emotionally opened up through sex. It's not just a body. Do you want to say something about that?
Jerry Sander:Yes, say that, again, what you just said that was profound.
Kristy Gaisford:Okay, I hope I can, but the woman feels like the man just needs to use their body and to be pleasured. So it's like, I've been used all day with these kids and with everything I've been doing, and now he wants to take this for me use me in this way too, so that he can be satisfied. They don't realize that this men also want to feel emotionally close. But it's through sex that they feel emotionally close to their wife. And it's not just about feeling their physical need, it is about I want to bond with my wife. But I think sometimes the women miss that they don't realize that's how they're going to get that emotional closeness to their husband, in part.
Jerry Sander:I have two distinct reactions to that. Two different reactions. Okay. One is, there is some truth to women's observation that sometimes guys just want to get off. And don't even care about the relational piece. And that it might just as well be a masturbation experience. Because they're feeling like that, like that the emphasis is not on, let's be closer, let's have intimacy, I want to feel loved that for a good number of men a good number of times, it's that now they've grown up and been socialized to want that and crave that and understand sex, not as something that happens relationally. But something's just about you and physical release in your body. That's an early discovery for both men and women, that there's some release in the body. But I think when we come into relationships, what do we do with that? And it's not automatic. It's not automatically an adjustment. So I agree with this. That's the first part of what I'm saying is that they're not wrong sometimes. Right? They're not wrong, that you just want to get off. And it doesn't even really matter how, what my experience is, I think, guys, who if they were, honestly to respond to that, anonymously would say, yeah, there are times like that. But I think the second part, is also true that guys want their sexuality to be deeply loved and appreciated, and part of something really special like that, that their partner really desires and loves and creates a place that only the two of you know, that that's a respite, like, a special place you go, that's delicious. I think men want that just as much as women. That's true, too.
Kristy Gaisford:You don't want to be sitting there waiting. Right? Right. And,
Jerry Sander:you know, they're, I mean, in an ideal world, you'd both have the same sexual urges and desires at the same time, always. I don't think that's true. And I think for someone who has more sex drive, or has just more urges or something, they have to figure out a way to handle that in within the confines of their own relationship. Unless there's an understanding that you're going to involve outside people or something like that. But you have to modulate that for yourself. I mean, there's a there's a body reality, there, there's, there are such a thing as need for sexual experience. And some people vary with the desire so that I guess what I'm saying is none of it's off limits to discuss. Yeah. And that's what I found with couples that when they actually discuss this, and someone says to someone else, I don't care if you masturbate and have a wonderful time with yourself, just don't come expecting me Tuesday at 4:30pm to like, have a great encounter with you or something. That's not that doesn't end a relationship. That's not like throwing a hand grenade at your partner.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah. And I think, in general, you could say, men if you want, remember that foreplay comes way before. Women want to partner in a lot of ways. It's not don't just show up for sex. And women. Don't expect your husband and want to show up for you. If if you are withholding sex for a lot, a long period of time, it's not gonna it's not gonna go
Jerry Sander:through it doesn't warm the heart. Yeah, no. And by the way, we don't want to because all stereotype there are women who just really, really crave sex more than their partners. You know, so it's not just the one way
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, yeah, you're right. Okay, it's your turn.
Unknown:Number four Hold on. True. Oh, my handwriting's terrible. Yeah, this goes to what we were talking about before. Yeah. You know, they joked about it. And When Harry Met Sally, I think Billy Crystal said something like, you know, she asked him, so you're saying like a guy could be sexual at any time with anyone or something? And he said, Well, if it's the right time, like a tree, or that gasoline pump would do or something like that. Like, is that true that men have a drive? That doesn't really even care about relationality? And I think that's a complex answer. I think that you could label that a primal, aka immature person in development kind of energy, that just in an unfocused way, once they get off. And then the higher level I think, of being in intimacy, is working that out with a partner, so that it becomes something other than just a good sneeze like orgasm, that it becomes something wonderful and beautiful that you both look forward to, I do think men at their, at our most limited, can just wander off and be exquisitely non relational, with our sexual needs. Or we can choose the opposite.
Kristy Gaisford:I love the way you said that exquisitely non relational. That leads right into mine. So I said, a lot of the women I talk to say, it feels like it's all about him. So the sex feels like it's all about him. And then when I turn to the man, he says, Well, she doesn't tell me what she wants. She won't tell me what she likes. I don't know what to do. Well, I just think that goes back to the fact that it's really hard for people to talk about this stuff in their in their relationships.
Jerry Sander:I wouldn't underestimate what a mystery each other's bodies are, to each of our sexes. Men don't know a lot. I didn't know a lot. Men don't know a lot about females bodies, and what feels good and what feels better and what feels best. It does require a generous partner to kind of show you and teach you and respond. If the partner feels like they're not allowed to say anything like that, or just the guy's supposed to know how to do it. It to intuit what would feel best for her, then both partners are likely to be pretty disappointed, I think. Yeah. Because it's like when you go for a backrub. And the massage person says, Am I getting the right place? Is that the place? Or is it lowers it to the left? Imagine if they didn't say it and just did it and then said, So how was that it? Was that good? It's like, No, it wasn't too good. So I don't fault either partner. And I think the same thing, women with men? Are women really curious about men's bodies? Or do they just have one way that's tried and trued? That they feel you're supposed to do it? And if you can get beyond that? And see these bodies as these exquisite sort of canvases, playground, you know, and have curiosity. You love the person if curiosity for what feels good? And what about this? You know, I call that with my clients, the huge Chinese menu. You know, in the old days, you speak Chinese restaurants with like, 15 pages of choice. Yeah, yeah. It's like, yeah, so I tell him you got it's not just the same old or the old same. There's like 15 pages of choices here for playing with each other. And having fun doing it. If you can let your mind unclench and stop being afraid of being so wrong.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, yeah. There definitely has to be given take, you know, giving and being able to receive and I know a lot of couples feel like it's one sided, like one person gives more and the other one doesn't reciprocate. So think about that in your relationship. Am I Am I giving as much as I'm receiving advice?
Jerry Sander:No. That's all through their relationship. That's just the way that their relationship.
Kristy Gaisford:That's so true. It all plays out in the bedroom. Mm hmm. Yeah. That's fair. It's
Jerry Sander:like, it's either a democracy was too excited, glad to be here partners, or it's not. And if it's not, it needs to be talked about, I think in couples therapy or on your own. Yeah.
Kristy Gaisford:I agree. So I wanted to say that everyone deserves I guess you could say, a fulfilling happy sex life of a fulfilling sex life in a partnership. And, and you're you, you get to have a voice, right? So some women say, and I'm I am generalizing. So if it doesn't fit the stereotype, fit it for you, but feel like they can't say no, they can't ever say no. Other people, women rarely ever say yes. And vice versa. I'm sure. So the but the important thing is neither extreme is okay. If you are allowed to say no, without your partner, pouting or punishing you somehow. But if you're always saying no, if that saying no, is okay, but it's also a form of distance taking. If your partner approaches you, and you say, No, it's up to you to close that gap. Next time. Maybe it's your turn to initiate. So you can you can stand up for yourself, but also stand up for the relationship. If you say no, one day, then then advocate for the relationship. The next time be mindful of that.
Jerry Sander:Like that, and I'm thinking there's a difference between saying no, versus asking, Can we take a raincheck to tomorrow morning? Yes, you know, one feels like a reaching and an excitement. And the other feels like, Get out of here, you know?
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah. Every rejection?
Jerry Sander:Yeah. Yeah. So I think you know, how you're always talking about leading with love, you know, instead of saying, oh, that's the last thing on my mind tonight. You know, like, get away from me. Yeah. And you didn't even do the bird feeders. You know, like, no. sitting here watching a wildcard game? No, you know, sitting here eating dip while I clean up all this stuff and do the bird feeder. No, you don't. You? I don't want to do that tonight, instead of saying that you could say, I love the thought of being with you. I love it. And I'm wondering if we could do that tomorrow morning. That would be really special. I got nothing else. I was scheduled for that time. Is that work for you? You know,
Kristy Gaisford:that's yes, it feels so different. Yeah, another thing, a lot of times people will make a complaint because complaints aren't vulnerable. So they'll say something like, you haven't even touched me for days. Which
Jerry Sander:I don't want to touch them. Right. Right here. Okay, here. Now, I touched your right,
Kristy Gaisford:right. But that is so much less vulnerable than saying, Hey, I miss you. Can we? When can we? When can we get together?
Jerry Sander:That's right, because one makes it sound like you screwed up as a man or as a woman. And the other one makes you feel like I am missing you missing something I like to do too. And that's what you know, we get stereotyped into whoever likes sex in relationship is somehow the needy one and whoever doesn't like it as the noble one or something just gets all messed up. It should be that both parties have their own desires and bringing them into sync is something you can do. You can figure it out. But it requires working together, just like working together about who's shopping, who's picking up the kids who's doing other things. So I think it's
Kristy Gaisford:important to go back to the, you know, an optimal number. I know every couple is different. But if one person wants it a lot, and the other one doesn't. I still think it's a good thing to aim for once a week.
Jerry Sander:Because I agree with you. Go ahead and sorry.
Kristy Gaisford:I was just gonna say if you never want it, it doesn't mean you should never have you got to work through that. Because it is part of a healthy relationship.
Jerry Sander:I like when people know there's a time a week that they can look forward to something really special and wonderful. I also like that people have House meetings once a week where they talk about all the crap that they're going to have resentments about if they don't talk about you know, I like that and I find that when you put both In your life, the junk House meeting not junk, the unpleasant House meetings that take care of business. And the let's lose ourselves in fun, at least once a week, good things happen. So I'm a fan of that to Christie.
Kristy Gaisford:So, I, in this article I read, there were there are four things that I just thought I'd say quickly. The first is to talk about your sex life with your partner, too many of us don't talk about it, and, and then nothing's resolved. So it shouldn't be scary, or the elephant the rooms, talk about it, too, is what you said, schedule it. If you're not having it, I mean, it's so easy to, to not have it really, with how busy life is and how tired we are. Three is try intimacy dates. And that wasn't just sex. But like if you have to start with intimacy dates, where you just maybe you give each other back rubs and you put on music and you just try to create this mood, where you're, you're there for each other in a different way than just let's cross off our list. Let's get through the dishes, let's put, you know, put the kids to bed but just really enjoying each other. And then if none of these those work, see a sex therapist, get help.
Jerry Sander:I like it. Like my last one, my number five to talk about was what you've kind of alluded to, which is lack of desire, that this is a real thing. And you can argue that during a pandemic, even though you've got for many people, your partner around more you think, Oh, wow, more sex. No, I don't find that I find there's more aggravation with each other, and more desire to just simply have some space. And if you've got kids to have no one clinging on, you are no one, you know, demanding anything of you. So ironically, a lot of people are starting to feel like I don't know if I really need sex. Now, unlike food, foods you need in order to stay alive. Sex you don't. And some people make the calculation, particularly after they've had kids. I'm done with that. I'm done with that part of my life. And that always seems sad to me. It seems like a really resignation or something. I had one woman quit on me once because I kept nudging her to go out on dates or something like that. And she really wants to stay at home, knit, take care of her cat. And, and there's nothing to say that if you don't want sex, you're wrong. Or you're a bad person, if you want to be celibate, or asexual, there's new category of heard called solo sexual. Okay, you know, but I think relationally speaking, there's a gold mine to be explored. If you allow yourself the exploration, and have a willing partner. And you both have an open mind about it. There can be untold avenues of fun and intimacy. So I always vote for that. For people.
Kristy Gaisford:I totally agree, I would add that I like to think of it as like a healing balm that goes over the whole relationship. And it just it is it's healing. If you take that away from it, it's more rough, there's more edges, people are more irritable, there's not a way to really deeply heal when you don't have that. So it's important that you keep working for it.
Jerry Sander:So it's a major tool for our relational health as much as we use the feedback wheel, other things like that, and just kind of trying to stay open. It's a major plus to be able to apply that bomb over the rocky waters or whatever the image should be.
Kristy Gaisford:And the thing that's so special is it is unique in a heterosexual couple is the Oh, it's the thing that you share that no one else can be a part of. It's it's your it's your thing. It's your healing balm. It's something that you reserve for this special unit union you have.
Jerry Sander:I love it. I know next time we're going to talk about porn, and how that integrates into relationships and the impact of that on. But we did want to talk about sex first.
Kristy Gaisford:Yes. Thank you. That was fun. Thank you insightful Next time