Seek First to Understand

Jerry (00:01)
Hey, you're listening to LoveWorks Skills for a Relational Life. I'm Jerry Sander, my cohost, Kristy Gaisford Hi, Kristy. You had a great topic for today, and we're calling it Seek First to Understand. Maybe you can explain, and we're gonna feature some of our world-class fighting in this and resolution to show folks how things commonly go and how it can be done better.

Kristy (00:07)
Hi, Jerry.

Yeah, so I thought of this because it's just basically what I see every day in couples therapy. Everybody wants to be understood, but it's very hard to be understood if you're both trying to be understood first, nobody feels understood. And so I taught a college course, just one class this week and I was

Jerry (00:30)
You want to explain?

Kristy (01:00)
writing down ideas about what it's like to work with couples. And these are some of the things I wrote because I think it's true. And these aren't new, but there is no objective reality, right? Two people see things differently because they have a different filter. They have a different personality. They have a different background. They have a different gender. They have a different whatever it is.

Jerry (01:05)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. What do mean by that? What do mean?

Kristy (01:30)
you filter the information in. And so it's not like I'm right and you're wrong. It's like we are both right because these are both of our unique realities. And there wasn't a camera there. So you can't replay to see who's objectively correct. The other thing is no matter who you are, we all have blind spots. And it's just become more and more apparent to me how

Jerry (01:50)
Yeah. Yep.

Kristy (02:00)
how much we have blind spots and you have a unique perspective as a therapist because you can see both people's blind spot. And I know I have them too. So we all have them, but it's like, if we don't acknowledge that we have them, we're never going to be able to see what they are. We're just going to dig in and keep going with our perspective. And you can just see it this happen over and over. It's like, wait a minute.

Can you stop for a minute and be curious about understanding their reality and their experience of you? Because it might not be your experience of you because you had different intentions and you mean well and you didn't mean to say it like that and there's no, there's no, yeah, go ahead.

Jerry (02:44)
Yeah, can I,

I want to ask you about that. So people tend to feel like my partner's not getting me or understanding me, how I really am. Right. And you're saying the part that person has to be curious about how your partner sees you.

Kristy (02:58)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Jerry (03:11)
which is so different, like wanting to know how I'm coming across and how you see me is so different than defending how I really am and you're not getting me.

Kristy (03:23)
Yes.

So here's an example. Say my partner says, your tone of voice is so harsh, it just feels condescending. And I say, I wasn't being harsh, I was just asking a question. And I refuse to see that maybe I did sound harsh and condescending because I didn't feel like I was and I didn't mean to be. So I'm gonna dig into my intentions and what I think I sounded like rather than being open to the fact that

Jerry (03:27)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kristy (03:56)
Well, for my partner, whether I was or not on my side, that's how they heard me. That's how they experienced me. So maybe I'm harsher than I think I am.

Jerry (04:06)
And

I'm interested in making a repair.

Kristy (04:10)
Yes.

Yes.

Jerry (04:13)
Okay, go on. have some thoughts, but go on. Interesting.

Kristy (04:15)
Okay, we all make

sense to ourselves. That's self explanatory. And what we talk about in boot camp, when we're in that ego part of us, the adaptive child or whatever you want to call it, we really just want to prove that we're right. And we want to defend ourselves. And we'll never get repaired when we're in that place. So we really have to tame that part of us and then

turn on our curiosity and say, okay, before I even try to be understood, I need to understand. I need to understand my partner's perspective and I need to understand and be open to this. What is it like for my partner to be with me? And it's really hard to receive feedback that isn't complimentary. So it does take being sturdy,

getting your ego out of the way, bringing in some humility and being curious. Like I have a lot of great qualities, but there's some qualities I have that are probably not easy to be with. So let me be open to what those are. So that's why I wanted to do this podcast on Seek First to Understand because I think it's one of the only ways through this conundrum or this gridlock that relationships get into of

But that's not what I meant. That's not my intent. This is what I did. This is why I did it. This is why I'm so good and why you shouldn't be mad at me. Let me list all the reasons you shouldn't be mad at me. Let me list all the reasons I've done more than you have. And I get, I should actually be mad at you. Like we could just, you see it every day too, right?

Jerry (06:04)
Yeah, I do. And I'm recalling this time I was teaching a class and one of the students, I forget how it came up in conversation, but she said, like you, you're really scary. And I said, I'm scary? And she said, yeah. I mean, look at that face.

And I was floored and there were like 17 other students in the class. I said, yikes, do other people experience me as scary? And I'm really glad I asked that question because they didn't. And it wasn't to undermine her, but I was then, I then made the repair. tried to offer a repair. I'm really sorry that you experienced me that way. I don't know.

what moment that happened or what he did. Now, you know, but I don't want you to be scared. This is your class, it's your learning experience. Let me know how I can help with it. You know, try not be scary. But I could have dug in and part of me felt like obviously you've had an experience with someone who looked like me in the past or something, or they were, were.

Kristy (07:19)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (07:31)
other differences between us. was like racial difference between us. There was like, I'm a male, she's a female. There was all these other things that I could have gone in. Well, obviously you have an attitude about someone's or you're judging me without really knowing me, but that would have been like digging in and getting like, you don't know the real me instead of wanting to make the repair that I've hurt someone. Someone's brave enough to say they were hurting.

Kristy (07:45)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (08:00)
What do I want to do about that? Can I reach for that?

Kristy (08:03)
Yeah,

yeah, that's a good example.

Jerry (08:08)
So, yeah, I experienced this with clients a lot who just want to state their case and clarify that how you see me is wrong. You know? And what's missing from that is what? by the way, I'd like to make things better between the two of us. That's what's not being said. It's not being reached for. I'm always telling clients they have to reach for their partner and not just say stuff.

Kristy (08:16)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, right.

Yeah, I also hear people saying things like, I hear you, that must be really hard to feel that way. But I mean, that's like a good step, but they're still not owning their part in it. I can see that me talking to you in that tone would make you feel that way or or yeah, whatever how you want to say or I can see how

Jerry (08:39)
Do you really want to make it better?

Kristy (09:07)
When I ask you lots of questions in a row, could feel like I was interrogating you or judging you. I can see that and I'm sorry that I did that. It's not enough to just say, can understand why you might feel that way without taking any accountability. That doesn't make the person feel better. It's like, okay, you're sorry, but you're still not taking ownership of your role in this.

Jerry (09:18)
Mm-hmm.

That's a good point.

It's like when people apologize and say, I want to offer an apology to anyone who decided they were offended. You know what I mean? You know, like not that I did anything wrong.

Kristy (09:40)
Yes.

No, how about this one? If I've ever

offended any of you in any way, I just want to say I apologize. It's like if you did anything ever. OK.

Jerry (09:57)
Yes.

My other favorite one is, don't know why, but athletes do this all the time. Like I want to apologize for someone said that that's not me. That wasn't me. Like who else was it? What do mean that's not me? It was you.

Kristy (10:07)
Hahaha.

Exactly. It's so hard for us to just say, I made a mistake.

I was harsh. I was wrong. I was judgmental. I was critical. Like, it's so hard for us to just say it.

Jerry (10:27)
Or, okay, so in my case in that classroom, I was probably intense about something. By my reckoning, I would never say I was determined to be scary that class. I was probably intense in speaking about something. And here someone was saying, I read that intensity is really scary. What can I say? No, you don't.

Kristy (10:33)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Exactly. Exactly.

That's her experience.

Jerry (10:57)
Yeah, so I'm sorry.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kristy (11:01)
I mean you could say, what

is it about me that you find scary? know? Well your voice is low and you look serious or whatever, or you have a beard. It's like, okay, okay. You you can hear that. It doesn't mean you're scary, but that's what makes her feel that way.

Jerry (11:11)
Yeah. Yeah.

think it helped that I burst out laughing when she said, look, look at that face. Look, I mean, look at that face. said, like, I'd never had anyone say that to me before, you know? Yeah. Look at that. I mean, look at that face. I had, I know we're going to practice some of these, but did you have more thoughts? What was the class and how did the class receive some of this about no objective reality and stuff like that?

Kristy (11:21)
Yeah, that's probably great. that's funny. Look at that face.

I don't know how they received it. It was a class on intro to social work, what it's like to be a couples therapist. So, I mean, they had a lot of, I don't know. no, don't think I'm intimidating now. Maybe I should be more intimidating, but no, I don't think so.

Jerry (11:54)
huh.

nice. Did you scare them where you're intimidating? Did they say, look at that face?

did they got it? What you were saying and they understood it.

Kristy (12:13)
I mean, they were pretty quiet, to be honest with you, and it was

over Zoom, so I was projected on this big screen in the classroom. I wasn't, which was hard for me because I wasn't in the room with them, so I couldn't read as well as I'd hoped. But they did ask questions, so they were at least engaged. Yeah.

Jerry (12:21)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

That's great.

It's great. It's fun. It's fun working with people who are brand new to this stuff, Yeah. Yeah.

Kristy (12:37)
It is, yeah. I enjoy it.

Jerry (12:42)
So I wrote some things down about, I kind of took the opposite task of the elements of making a disagreement into a fight and making a fight worse, you know?

Kristy (12:53)
okay.

What did you say?

Jerry (12:56)
And these are things I always do like when we're fighting to show negative examples. I mean, you and I, when we illustrate this, the first thing that makes things worse all the time is to say, this is what you always do, Kristy.

Kristy (13:05)
Mm-hmm.

yeah, that's a terrible one.

You're right.

Jerry (13:16)
So reminding your partner of past failures. Yeah. That leaves the present argument to revisit good old ones that were never resolved, you know?

Kristy (13:28)
That's like a way

to guarantee instant flooding of your partner. Instant. it's just like, here we go again. Everything from the past is back. Anything we resolved is now back on the table. You just want to throw in the towel and walk out the door when that happens.

Jerry (13:34)
Yeah, what do mean by flooding? I like that. Yeah, yeah.

Three Thanksgivings ago, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Second one is escalating the tone to where it sounds like a prosecution. You know, like, isn't it true that on the evening of January 3rd, you said the following thing to me, you know,

Kristy (13:53)
Or at least that's what I wanted to do. I don't know.

Yes.

Yeah, or yeah, or it's like,

no, you said that you said that I heard you say that you always say that you did. Yeah.

Jerry (14:18)
Admit it. Yeah. So that that never makes someone feel closer to someone else. Trying to explain away the interior of the other person's heart and mind instead of asking a question about it. Like mind reading and boundary crossing, telling them what they feel instead of asking.

Kristy (14:41)
Yeah,

or making every single thing they say about you. So it's like, well, it really hurt my feelings. Well, I'm the one that, know, well, I, you know, it's just like, they can't even stay with the other person long enough to hear it out. They're already making it about them.

Jerry (14:49)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

That's right.

These are all things that interfere with reaching for the other person. Weaponizing therapy insights. We've done whole podcasts about this, think, about family of origin stuff. Well, you're that way because your father did this to you when you were six years old and blah, blah, blah, and you never changed. And you're just like him, you know? Ouch. You know, yes, you're the...

Kristy (15:07)
Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Jerry (15:29)
Most men are a little bit like their fathers in some way, you know, and that could be sad, could be motivation to change.

Kristy (15:36)
But yeah, it doesn't make them want

to open up to you if you use it that way.

Jerry (15:41)
No. So, or trying to align with a recollection of what the couples therapist said. You know, like you're doing what Kristy pointed out to you in the last session. You know, you're doing it right now. I wish you were here to see it, you know? So trying to use therapy, couples therapy insights against your partner. This is more common than I would like, you know,

Kristy (15:50)
Yeah.

Jerry (16:08)
Getting some knowledge from couples therapy and then using it to smash your partner in the next argument. Why would you do that? You want to score points? You want it to be one to nothing? Just venting stuff. We talked about this in the bootcamp. Just venting stuff instead of reaching for your partner. The goal of this conversation should be to feel more connected and have more understanding.

Kristy (16:14)
Yeah, not helpful.

Jerry (16:38)
How is that gonna happen if you're just gonna vent and expect them to sit and listen? There's gonna be some moment where you make it clear that you wanna know what they feel and that it may be totally different from what you feel. I mean, that kind of venting I wrote, you could be in a room alone doing that, talking to the wall. You get the same results. So those are my thoughts.

Kristy (16:40)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I know, that's true.

Do you want to do a couple of the fights to demonstrate?

Jerry (17:06)
Yeah, I'll do my best to incorporate these things. Do you have a one? Okay.

Kristy (17:11)
Yeah, I have one so I I

Maybe I work part-time. I mostly am home with the kids. You're always working I feel like So anyway, let's just say that you work a lot You're gone a lot You you provide well financially

Jerry (17:36)
And you're in a similar field as me or no, or you when you work part time. Okay. Okay.

Kristy (17:38)
No, no, I mostly stay at home, mom, and I work part time. Okay, so

I come to you and I say, I feel like it's just me and the kids and you're just off doing whatever you want, working all the time, and you're just not here to help out. It's like, I feel like you don't even care about our relationship, and it's just really hurtful. It's like...

Jerry (18:05)
of them, why am I working so hard to provide for people if I don't care about the relationship?

Kristy (18:13)
I know you have to work, it's like even when you're home, you're thinking about work, you're on your computer. It's like, why are you? There's no time for us. There's no time, even time for you and the kids. I just feel like I don't have your attention. It's like, I'm constantly here. It's just me and the kids. And then it's like, where are you?

Jerry (18:34)
All right, this is where you always go. This is always what you always do this, Christy, you always do this. Go to that it's just you and the kids and you're this little victimized unit waiting for me to come home and I won't pay any attention to anyone because I go on my phone and try and advance my position at work so we can have more resources and vacation time and things like that and stuff.

Kristy (18:38)
What do I always do?

Well, I'd rather have less

money and more time with you.

Jerry (19:09)
I don't think that's realistic. I don't think you're being realistic. I mean, that sounds like something someone who works part time would say.

Kristy (19:22)
Okay, so am I just supposed to, like, why are we even together then? If you're just gonna be working all the time and I'm just gonna be home.

Jerry (19:29)
because we're married and we have kids and, know, marriage isn't supposed to be just super easy. You know, my parents didn't have it easy. They hung in there with each other for 37 years and they did okay. You know, what about us? What about us? I'm working really hard. You're working hard, I guess, you know, and

Kristy (19:31)
What about us?

You guess. See

that makes me feel like you don't even see any of the things I'm doing at home or with the kids or with everything that I take care of. So you can work all the time.

Jerry (19:59)
But

my life is larger than just the kids, you know? And used to be more fun.

Kristy (20:08)
Okay, let's stop. Or F you, one of those.

Jerry (20:12)
All right. We went to hell pretty fast there. Welcome to hell. Right. I I presume you would say that I used to be more fun too.

blah. I hope you're not relating too much to that listeners. Yeah. But there's, there's probably an element of that. A lot of people have done, right?

Kristy (20:31)
Yeah, that was hell for sure.

Okay.

Jerry (20:42)
That conversation, yeah. Feeling not seen and valued. OK, so we're going to correct this, right? OK.

Kristy (20:43)
Mm-hmm.

Yes. So.

Um, hey, welcome, welcome home. Um, I, I, I miss you.

Jerry (21:04)
Thank you, thank you, I miss you too. These are long days we have, right?

Kristy (21:10)
Yeah, it is really long. I feel like we kind of live two separate lives and it's hard.

Jerry (21:11)
Both of us.

you feel that way it it is it feels like waking up and just hitting the ground running right like do this do that and I know we're doing separate things but we're doing that every day

Kristy (21:33)
Yeah, I mean, how do you feel about it? Like, what is it like to be you?

Jerry (21:38)
That's a great question. Oh, that's a great. Thank you for asking that. I feel like sometimes it's worthless. Like I know I'm providing and I know the bills are getting paid, but I ask myself, like, why is it set up this way to feel like such a rat race? You know, where I don't.

feel like I'm having enough of the good stuff and some of the fun I used to have with you. It doesn't... It just feels all engulfing and that any spare moment I have I got to put to trying to get more leverage at work and more money and stuff. It's dispiriting. It's upsetting.

Kristy (22:25)
Does

it feel like a lot of pressure then?

Jerry (22:29)
Yeah, yeah, thank you. Yeah.

Kristy (22:32)
I can

see that. I mean, I feel like

Jerry (22:37)
What's... Yeah, I was gonna ask what's it like to be you? What does all this seem like to you?

Kristy (22:42)
Well, I mean sometimes I feel upset because I feel like we decided to have a family together and I feel like I'm kind of alone in it. But hearing you talk also makes me realize that I don't have to worry about the pressure that you do. So I am grateful you take on that pressure and that I don't have to worry about it. But yeah, sometimes it feels lonely like we're supposed to have this family and then

Jerry (22:53)
Hmm. Hmm.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Mm.

Kristy (23:11)
It's like me and the kids and I just, yeah, it's okay a lot of the time but sometimes I just feel like how did I end up here by myself? If that makes sense.

Jerry (23:14)
Hmm.

Yeah.

No. Yeah,

you feel like a single mother, I'm guessing.

Is that right? That it feels like a single mother sometimes?

Kristy (23:28)
Well, I mean, it's probably

not single mother because they probably have to worry about have a full time job too. And so at least I have that. do a great job providing, but single in the sense that it's like me and the kids at dinner and me and me driving them around and me doing homework with them because you're working later traveling. And so it's just like, I don't feel like I always have a teammate in the details.

Jerry (23:36)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Ugh. Yeah. I, I can get that.

Kristy (23:56)
I have a teammate in the big picture, but not in the details. And I just wonder if there's anything we

can do about that.

Jerry (24:07)
I would like to figure that out together. You know, what we could do to not feel either of us really as alone and pressured or overwhelmed. was never my intention in trying to work as hard as I do to have you feel alone. It didn't enter into my consciousness, you know, that if I do what I'm supposed to do, you'll feel more alone. That seems

cruel, you know? So I think we could figure stuff out. Something, somehow. I think these are the hard years. I think with the kids at this age, it's hard. I've talked to other parents and it's really hard. And a lot of people lose each other, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I talked to someone, I talked to someone in their 50s.

Kristy (24:46)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I agree.

And it's hard career years too. I know that you're stretched thinner than you ever have been.

Jerry (25:07)
Maybe he was in his 60s the other day and he told me that being in your 30s is the roughest because you're trying to get like approval from people and be seen as a real rising star and really valuable. And that after you're 55, you just don't care that much who likes you and who doesn't, you know? I look forward to that. Yep.

Kristy (25:27)
Yeah.

That makes sense.

Well,

thanks. Let's maybe circle back around and try to at least find a few times that we could have more family time.

Jerry (25:37)
Yeah, thank you for talking. Yep.

Definitely. Good talk.

Kristy (25:46)
Thanks.

What do you think?

Jerry (25:54)
I think what made the difference in that was curiosity. What we're always telling advising clients to do is ask some nice questions. Stop trying to mind read. when you asked me what it was like to be me, that like, whoa, that blindsided me. It was like, I don't get asked that. I get asked at work, where's the quarterly report? You know, no one asked me what's it like to be me. You know.

Kristy (26:02)
Yeah.

Mmm.

Yeah.

Jerry (26:24)
What was the turnaround for you in this one?

Kristy (26:27)
I think it was just trying to get out of my my own experience and assume that you had your own. So I came at it from a different place, just assuming this can't be easy for him either. So let me ask about it before I tell him how I feel.

Jerry (26:53)
It really worked. I hope you felt that you got listened to also. Okay, good. All right, we did well with that one. Yeah.

Kristy (26:55)
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think this also illustrates though, like

if one of you goes first, you can both be heard, but if neither of you does that, no one's heard.

Jerry (27:08)
Yeah.

I can hear a listener asking a question even though they didn't yet, which is what happens if she opens it up to him and asks what's it like to be him and then he doesn't ask what's it like to be you? What would happen?

Kristy (27:25)
I think I would say.

I would love to share what it's like to be me. Are you open to that? To hearing my experience?

Jerry (27:34)
Yeah. Yeah, that's

great. Yeah. Instead of just getting angry and indignant about, yeah. Yeah. Cause they, again, you could frame that as here we go again. I always ask about you and you don't even ask about me, but that's, think what you mean when you speak about putting your ego aside, which is not the same thing as being a doormat and not being codependent.

Kristy (27:40)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

No, because you're still asking for

yourself, but you're not doing it. Yeah, from a defensive place.

Jerry (28:05)
Yeah.

Excellent. All right. I have a, an argument that, I'll, I'll be like a pretty different person than I really am to do this one. Okay. So, I can be a little more rigid than I really am. All right. it's about taxes. Quarterly. No, it's about yearly taxes. It's about the.

Kristy (28:28)
Okay.

Jerry (28:35)
the 1040 form and the federal taxes to do April 15th, Kristy, April 15th every year. It's the same day every year. And we have this conversation, it seems, every year starting after Christmas. And I say, let's do our taxes and get them done. I hope this is sounding familiar to you now. Let's get them done by February 15th.

the day after Valentine's Day so the accountant has enough time to look at the stuff and ask questions, get it in on time. And this year, I did my part. We filed jointly. It's all dependent on you doing your part and us submitting it to the accountant together. And you didn't. And you didn't. I even know if you recognized it was February 15th. But I haven't heard a thing about it from you. And I'm tired of this.

What's your explanation or apology or something?

I where are you? This is like a... Yeah.

Kristy (29:47)
Where am I? I'm running around like a

chicken with my head cut off doing a thousand other things. I mean, I'm sorry. You're right. I didn't realize it was February 15th. You haven't reminded me. I have a million things on my list and we still have two months. So I don't understand what the big deal is and why you have to be so rigid about the 15th. Like I don't even know if I've gotten all the forms from in the mail yet. I, you know, you don't have to act like my dad.

You could just come to me and say, hey, the 15th is coming. Do you have a minute? Or like, are you thinking about it? But you just come scold me and I'm just like, you know what? I'm just kind of sick of it.

Jerry (30:29)
Okay, and I'm kind of sick of your like loosey goosey whatever happens happens. Hey, maybe we'll file taxes. Maybe we won't bummer man. taxes it's like

Kristy (30:41)
Yeah, and I'm sick of you being Mr. Rigid's principal. Like, take a chill pill.

Jerry (30:42)
You know what I mean?

I'll just tell the IRS and the accountant, we took a chill pill this year. Yeah, my wife wanted to take a chill pill. So these forms are incomplete.

Kristy (30:59)
my gosh, I'm not saying...

Jerry (31:09)
We're like a little bit late, but it's not a big deal because she took a chill pill even though she agreed to February 15th. Do you like know what month it is even?

Kristy (31:19)
Yeah, you just told me it was February 15th.

And I know you know that because you have every little duck in a row.

Jerry (31:25)
We're a big thing about Valentine's Day. Big thing

about Valentine's Day. February 14th, biggest day of the year. Don't miss that.

Kristy (31:31)
Way to ruin Valentine's Day,

by the way, with the big tax deadline the day after.

Jerry (31:37)
Well, some people would start it before February 14th if it's due on the 15th. I guess not.

Kristy (31:40)
Well, I don't work that way. Sorry. And by the way, February 15th isn't

over yet. So technically I'm not late.

Jerry (31:50)
that is that you always do this. You always do this. You always like play some little game like that. Like I had game now. All right. You're right. You're right. It's not over yet. What?

Kristy (31:59)
And guess what? I've been living my life for a very

long time on this earth and somehow I've done fine without somebody like nagging over my shoulder. Never had the IRS come after me. Like I've lived my life just fine, but you make it seem like I'm some total screw up. Cause I'm not Mr.

Jerry (32:13)
okay. So I should

just say, whatever, whatever. The accountant, I'll call the accountant. I'll say, hi, it's Jerry or whatever, whatever. Have a nice year. know.

Kristy (32:20)
Yeah.

Yeah

Jerry (32:28)
You

Kristy (32:32)
You

Jerry (32:34)
Okay. That's good. That was fun. Okay. All right. Now we have to grow up though. Now we got to do a mature version of this. Ouch.

Kristy (32:34)
yeah, that was fun. Okay.

Let's try.

Jerry (32:50)
trying to be less belligerent. Okay. So Kristy, I looked at the calendar date today. It was February 15th. And you and I had said every year we say this after Christmas that we choose the date that we're going to have our tax preparation done for the accountant so that he has enough time to like ask any questions and submit it. And we say February 15th.

And I hate doing mine, but I do them and I get them ready and mine had been ready on February 8th at 10.35 PM. It was like February 8th. That was a week early.

Kristy (33:32)
Well, you kept track of the

time, huh? Wow. 10.59 PM. Okay.

Jerry (33:35)
I do. have it written in pencil in the corner, the upper right corner, 1055, I think I

said, yeah. So, and what from you? Nothing. And I can't file the stuff with them until the whole package is complete about what you earned and what I earned. And it's really frustrating because it's like, does she not remember? She does remember and doesn't care. Either way, it's just really annoying.

Kristy (34:05)
Hmm. Thank you for telling me how you feel.

Jerry (34:11)
Well, you're welcome, but are you gonna do anything about it?

Kristy (34:15)
yeah, I am. I actually am sorry that I'm late as usual. And, but I did start working on it. I just didn't get through all of my statements yet, but cause I'm trying to

Jerry (34:26)
Okay.

Was it like a more complicated year than usual?

Kristy (34:31)
No,

I just didn't get through it all yet, but I'm close.

Jerry (34:34)
So was.

All right. No, it's horrible. Isn't it? It's horrible trying to do it all. I hate it. I hate it. I know I come on strong because I'm as strong as I come onto you about it. I'm stronger on myself about it. Like I so I'm afraid of screwing it up because I'm very disorganized. Very. I have like three folders of different folders of the same things and different

Kristy (34:40)
Yeah, I really don't like it at all, actually.

Hmm.

Jerry (35:07)
parts of the house. so I think that's why I get so intense. But I just want to know that we're going to be okay, you know?

Kristy (35:12)
Yeah.

What do mean by okay? Like that you're not gonna get in trouble with the IRS or?

Jerry (35:19)
I...

That it's not all my responsibility. You know that this is something we're filing together and that it has to be something together we do. I guess I am feeling sole responsibility for it. And sole responsibility is something I can't control, which is, yeah.

Kristy (35:25)
Mm.

No, you can't.

Well, let me just remind you that I do get you this stuff every year and it's fine every year and it will be fine this year and I am close. So I will give it to you in the next three days. Is that okay?

Jerry (35:57)
Yeah, okay.

Yeah, it makes me sound really like, rigid, you know? Like, I don't know, do I seem that way about it?

Kristy (36:07)
Yeah,

you seem kind of like you have this like disproportionate fear, but that's okay. mean.

Jerry (36:16)
Huh.

Huh. What would work better? Because I don't want to...

Kristy (36:24)
if you would just say like, Hey, are you going to be able to have the paperwork done by the 15th? Like a few days before instead of like sitting me down, it's the 15th and you failed again. It just sounds so serious. You know, it's like, yeah, yeah, that's how it feels to me. Yeah.

Jerry (36:40)
That's what it feels like. Is that what it feels

Really? I'm sorry. Yeah, I don't mean that. I guess I meant it, but I didn't mean it to be... I just lose perspective about it. I my own fears, I guess. Probably way out of proportion to the real... I don't think they really care about...

Our income, they don't care about Ellen Musk's income. I don't care about mine.

Kristy (37:13)
I do think that I just want to say I am grateful. I don't ever tell you this, but I am grateful you're on top of it because if it was up to me, I probably would be getting it in in the beginning of April and I'm glad we have a window. So I do appreciate that you take the lead.

Jerry (37:29)
Okay.

All right. And I appreciate you took the lead on that vacation planning stuff because that would be in a distant corner of my mind. So, you know, like when we work together as a team, I think it works out. It does. I appreciate it.

Kristy (37:48)
Yeah, thanks.

You're welcome.

Jerry (37:51)
All right, so what worked there?

To me, it seemed to be that you weren't fighting. You didn't want to fight. It's like you just admitted, you know, about the date and made clear you don't want to fight.

Kristy (38:03)
Yeah.

I think so, yeah.

Jerry (38:15)
And I presented you with enough material to fight about, you know, like I was provocative enough. Be understandable if you fought, right?

Kristy (38:21)
Yeah.

Yeah,

I think I just decided like, well, he's right. I am late every year and but instead of okay, what I thought in my head was this is his dress, not mine. Like I know that the taxes aren't due today. They're due in two months. And so I'm not going to fight about it. I'm just going to try to meet him where he's at in a sense.

and still take accountability. But I didn't have to feel as defensive because I knew it was, it was in a sense, it was your issue, not mine. I mean, it was mine because you'd asked me, but I didn't have to feel the same intensity that you did.

Jerry (38:53)
Interesting. Interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah. And you know, I'm realizing as we talk about this, it's a side issue, but if anyone out there is listening, who's ADD or ADHD or anything, issues around organization for things like this are this huge thing. And what we, I'd say we commonly do is come up with different systems for how to keep track of stuff. And oftentimes it's multiple systems. So I have a,

Kristy (39:33)
Mmm.

Jerry (39:36)
an app that takes pictures of receipts from when you go out to eat and stuff like that. But I also have the credit card file. And so if I'm adding up the numbers from the credit card file, I may be duplicating numbers that are on the other app. And it's confusing to someone who doesn't have a strong sense of organization.

Anyway, what I'm suggesting is your partner may not share that. Your partner may be much more organized and not have that stress.

Kristy (40:06)
Yeah.

Jerry (40:09)
All right. You have a final fight or are we good? Have we fought enough? We fought enough. So the antidote to this stuff, how to learn how to get better at it before it gets to these kinds of levels of dumb fights. Come to a boot camp. There's one. Let's see. There's many of them happening. There's March 1st and 2nd in Salt Lake City. There is.

Kristy (40:13)
I think we're good. Yeah, I think we're good. I think so.

Jerry (40:39)
East Lansing, Michigan, April 5th, 6th.

Kristy (40:40)
Yep. Yes. Yep.

And then New York City, April 26th and 27th.

Jerry (40:49)
Okay, so no excuse. If you want to like learn how to do this more with a smile and some connection with other people who are learning, like come out and do it and it will change your head and change your relationship. really will.

Kristy (41:08)
It will, I totally agree. Everybody is together in this. Nobody is immune to this stuff. So it's good to know we're not alone and we just need to take the next step.

Jerry (41:09)
Well, thanks, Chrissy. Any closing thoughts?

Yeah.

Yep. Good. Well, until next time, I'll see you.

Kristy (41:23)
Thanks, Jerry. Okay, bye.