Leaving Victimhood

Jerry (00:00.773)
Hey, welcome to Love Work Skills for Relational Life. Hi, Kristy.

Kristy (00:05.624)
Hi Jerry. How are ya?

Jerry (00:07.646)
I'm good. I'm good. I'm I'm looking at the calendar and I'm just a little freaked out. They're having like frost in upstate New York now and I'm real yeah. And suddenly like, you know, Halloween s I got used to Halloween stuff being in the store in August, but now it's like right in front of the Christmas stuff. It's like way skipping things.

Kristy (00:15.053)
Really?

Kristy (00:24.214)
Yeah.

Kristy (00:29.674)
It's crazy 'cause it's still like eighty something here, so even though it it's just weird. It feels like summer, but you know it's not and

Jerry (00:33.905)
It it's just weird. feels like summer, but you know, it's not Yeah, Salt Lake City's on such a different latitude or something, you know?

Kristy (00:41.71)
It's also just kind of changes every year, so

Jerry (00:45.325)
I still remember that time it snowed in May when we were doing the boot camp. Yeah. Yeah, we were watching. Looking out in the parking lot and seeing snow.

Kristy (00:49.192)
right. It was sunny the first day and snowed the second day. Yeah.

That was wild.

Jerry (00:57.233)
All right. Well, our topic today, and yeah, this was my idea. So if anyone gets upset, you know, you know who to write to, is l leaving victimhood. And when I was thinking of this and calling it leaving victimhood, I want to make a distinction between a definition of a victim.

Who, as someone who's authentically been hurt or wounded, suffered physical, emotional, financial, or fundamental harm as a result of an external force, versus someone who develops a persona as a victim and lives in victimhood, which is a different thing, a condition of suffering. The Cambridge English Dictionary says victim.

Is the state or condition of having been hurt, damaged, or made to suffer, and that it's an identity and a mindset and can involve shifting blame and agency, and that the task is really to go from victimhood to being a survivor. And I would argue more than that, not just surviving, but figuring out how to thrive in your own life. So

Huge topic. Any any topic, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well I think it's huge because when you're

Kristy (02:26.776)
Huge topic, yes. Well, I think it's huge because when you're stuck in the victim position in terms of your mentality, you're you are stuck. If you're if you're somebody's victim then you don't have agency and it's up to them to change. And so if if you're somebody's victim, it's like for things to be better they need to be different. Which is which is why people get stuck.

in their relationships, there there isn't that self empowerment of I can change things here.

Jerry (03:02.674)
Even for myself, you know, yeah, which is where it would begin. I I mean, we we talk a lot in this type of therapy that we do about the stories we tell ourselves. And I think what happens when someone feels them to be of kinship with victimhood is that nothing good happens to someone like me.

Kristy (03:05.71)
Mm.

Jerry (03:28.305)
And nothing good i is going to happen to someone like me. That my choice is just to get used to it or suffer in silence, but even those people don't usually suffer in silence. They'll find a way to let their feelings be known. But the relational part of it is atrocious because it it keeps people in misery.

Kristy (03:33.304)
Mm.

Jerry (03:57.754)
It can keep people in misery.

Kristy (03:57.995)
Yes.

And it keeps them blind to their own role in things. So y I I think, by and large, we are the hero in our own story. So what I mean by that is I'm justified in my behavior. What I did makes sense. I did the right thing and I'm the good one because I did all these things for a good reason. And then usually we're the victim in the other person's story. So you hurt me.

You did this thing wrong and I'm the victim. And if if we're the hero in our own story and the victim in our partner's story, then there's no I'm not gonna have any insight into the role I'm playing in this 'cause I'm only justifying my behavior and I'm demonizing my partner's behavior.

Jerry (04:50.479)
Say more about that. I want to hear more about that.

Kristy (04:53.798)
well if I'm the victim then I don't have to be accountable for anything. Or if I'm the he

Jerry (04:55.921)
victim then I don't have to be accountable for anything. You're so that's talking about like offending from that position, right? Offending from that victim position?

Kristy (05:07.562)
Or even if I mean yes, but also if I'm the victim in if I think I'm your victim, then I don't have to look at myself. It's just like it's all your fault and I don't ha have to see the role that I've played in this. Like, for example, if my partner yells at me but I've been super dismissive and maybe I've been condescending or let's just say I've been really dismissive.

And then my partner gets so fed up that they start yelling at me and I'm like, see, I didn't even do anything and you just can't stop raising your voice and yelling at me. Now I'm the I'm my partner's victim. But if if I don't realize there's always two people in an interaction, then I'm not gonna be accountable for the fact that, well, I have been ignoring my partner, I have been dismissive, I have been condescending, and so maybe that's why they started yelling at me.

Jerry (05:38.466)
get so fed up that they start yelling at me and I'm like, see, do anything and you just can't stop raising your voice and yelling at me. Now I'm the I'm my partner's victim. But if if I don't realize there's only two people in an interaction, then I'm not gonna be accountable for the fact that, well, I have been ignoring my partner. I have been dismissive. I have been condescending and so maybe that's why they started yelling at me. Like I take part in this interaction

Kristy (06:05.451)
Like I I play a part in this interaction. But if if

Jerry (06:08.722)
Mm-hmm. I mean you're talking yeah, you're talking about the relational dimensions of this, yeah. Yeah.

Kristy (06:14.677)
Yeah, because things in a relationship don't happen in a vacuum. You know, it's like you you say your partner's so harsh all the time, but you I I mean I said this last week. You keep poking him in the eyeballs. Like you're constantly poking him in the eyeballs and then you're upset that he's getting mad. There's t there's two things going on. It's just it's not one sided. It doesn't happen in a vacuum.

Jerry (06:18.683)
Yeah. You know, it's like you you say to

Jerry (06:36.505)
There's two things fine.

Jerry (06:43.225)
Is a point well taken. the the confusion even within different models of helping people come in when we add trauma into the mix and the fact that we do acknowledge that some people are grandiose or narcissistic and hurt other people. And we do acknowledge the existence of wounded child. Now, if if we all were just equal, we could kind of point to someone and say, Why are you being a victim? you know.

So but there are people who've been authentically hurt, wounded, traumatized by I don't know, you can call it almost bad or evil actions. That's that's true. And that needs a healing response. But the question is, do you develop an identity where you say, Yeah, things happen to people like me and I

just have to hope it doesn't happen a lot more. Or in other words, you give away your agency completely and you don't see your own role in creating anything in the world, let alone self esteem. So

Kristy (07:53.398)
Well, I think most people are hurt throughout their childhood and throughout their life and we have these like soft spots where w they are tender and we are more reactive around those soft spots. And I have a lot of compassion for that. I think we all have them. But we don't have an excuse to behave badly because of those soft spots or because of the trauma. We have to figure out what those are and and we it's up to us to get the tools.

To work with those parts.

Jerry (08:23.385)
Yeah, well yep. What are some of the ways of behaving badly that someone in victimhood use?

Kristy (08:35.057)
some people completely shut down. They refuse to engage at all and in the relationship and they say they're too overwhelmed and hurt and so they're just not gonna participate. Other people are kind of the opposite. They're so traumatized by abandonment that they won't give their partner space and they're chasing them around the house and they're banging on the door saying, You need to talk to me right now because

Jerry (08:39.489)
engage at all and in the relationship and

Jerry (08:48.932)
Yeah.

Kristy (09:03.627)
they are they feel so triggered by this abandonment wound. And neither of those are healthy responses. We all I mean, it's very common and we all do them, but they're not healthy. And so if you're the person that shuts down, you need to learn to have the tools to stay engaged, to s to say, I need a timeout, I'm overwhelmed. But then when you're in timeout, you you help yourself get back to a place where, okay, I'm an adult

My partner loves me, I love my partner, I need to be able to engage in this conversation and work through it. It's it's not mature to just stay walled off and refuse to engage. Or if you're the one who chases your partner down because you're so anxious and this attachment wound is so strong, you have t it's it's so hard, but you have to gain the tools of self soothing. It's not your partner's job to make you feel better.

Jerry (09:37.666)
and work through it. to just stay walled off and refuse to engage. Or

Jerry (10:00.089)
We have to think so hard, but you have to be controlled to be not your partner's job to make you feel better. Yeah, now that is a key sticking point because I think someone who's in victimhood tends to feel like you can see it a mile away that I am miserable. You can see that I'm really suffering. And you are choosing to not make me feel happy. And

Kristy (10:20.875)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jerry (10:22.745)
You know, and that's the accusation. You are not making me happy. And here you, Christy, and I am saying to people, it's not your partner's job to make you feel happy. And they respond with, Well, I had all these traumas in my life. And that brings out a feeling in me as a therapist when I get that. And and I'm not sure it's always the best reaction. But

I it's hard for them to understand that the world only cares a limited amount about it. And I know that sounds harsh, but I remember the first time I heard a teacher say to me in social work school that what you never got as a child, you will never get as a child.

Kristy (11:11.194)
Ugh, that's wow, that's pretty powerful.

Jerry (11:14.255)
Yeah. Now you can get some good things as an adult, but you have to like yourself enough to put yourself in adult situations and behave like an adult.

Kristy (11:26.677)
Right. And I I think so much depends on how you communicate. So if you're in your adult self, your wise adult self, it's okay to ask for reassurance. Like I'm I'm just feeling I'm I'm feeling disconnected, I'm feeling kind of insecure, and I I would love it if you could reassure me about how you're feeling about our relationship. That's very different than me being in my adoptive child and saying, You need to tell me

Jerry (11:36.153)
It's okay ask for reassurance. Like I'm feeling feeling disconnected. I'm not

Jerry (11:46.938)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (11:52.666)
Me being in my adaptive child and saying, You need to tell me how you know, you need to make me feel better or you never tell me what how you feel and I need you to do that. You know, there's one way to be really demanding and push your partner away. There's another way to say, to ask for reassurance. You might not get it, but you have a

Kristy (11:56.393)
How d you know, you need to make me feel better or you never tell me what what how you feel and I need you to do that. You know, there's one way to be really demanding and push your partner away. There's another way to say to ask for reassurance. You might not get it, but you have a right to ask for it.

Jerry (12:14.839)
I have a question. Do you think that there's some levels of wounded woundedness or victimhood that make it so that people cannot effectively be in a healthy relationship like again?

Kristy (12:33.092)
that's a really good question. I I I guess my response would be yes if they don't acknowledge it and get the tools. I I do believe in in healing and growth and change and I think there's more and more tools and types of therapy out there now that can really help people heal. The ones that I don't have a lot of hope for are the ones who don't think they need it and don't seek the help.

Jerry (12:48.132)
Yeah.

Jerry (12:54.415)
Yeah.

Jerry (13:02.018)
It's it's a delicate area because sometimes people will hurl that term trauma at their partner as like, Don't you understand I've had trauma? And that somehow is supposed to be a green light to not not enter the world of regular human relations with the person, that they're in a unique category of pity and

that the world should pay attention to them. I mean, the example I can think of is I had a friend who was in I think he was engaged to a very beautiful woman and she had been sexually abused as a child and she refused to be touched. She would not be touched by him, even though she loved him and couldn't, couldn't do it.

Couldn't do it and they they broke up and they never got married or anything like that. I don't know what happened to her. And I'm thinking, yeah, she on one level she took care of herself. And I don't know that she'll ever, I don't presume she'll ever step into the ability to have a full relationship if it includes sexuality. So there may be other examples of this, but

I think sometimes people are so damaged that it's so overwhelming for them to be asked to provide themselves with self-esteem that they're not going to be able to be in that realm of this kind of health that we're talking about, that they'll find someone who will accept their unhealthiness.

Kristy (14:49.366)
Mm.

Jerry (14:51.855)
That's sad.

To me, the it is sad. And and then it's almost like don't ask me to do X, Y, or Z, because you know how I get and you know I've been traumatized. I when I used to work in a school, they'd have these meetings to try and figure out why this one special ed kid can't learn or doesn't seem to learn. And round the table would be like three teachers, a parent, psychologist, the kid's social worker.

Kristy (14:54.784)
Yeah, that is sad.

Jerry (15:24.633)
A psychiatrist, sometimes a lawyer, the head of the team, a paint parent advocate. There were literally like nine people sitting around the table trying to see why Joey doesn't do math homework. And I remember feeling like, wow, two more years from now, no one's gonna care about this kid. He's gonna be out there in the world.

Kristy (15:48.748)
Jerry (15:52.42)
And being asked to function in a job, there will never be nine people sitting around a table again trying to help And I don't know what that's like when you've got such deficits, you know? Like legitimate traumas.

Kristy (16:07.53)
Mm-hmm.

Kristy (16:11.372)
Well, I I mean yes, those exist but but also I think most people have have a lesser form of that and most people we deal with are people that have this adaptive child wound that and we just react in these adaptive ways.

Jerry (16:19.716)
Yeah.

Jerry (16:28.195)
Yeah. And so let's let's leap to them for a second. Have you seen people try to leverage their wounds and their traumas to gain some kind of advantage with their partner or gain some currency?

Kristy (16:48.79)
yes, but you go first because not as often. Usually people are more unaware of their reactions.

Jerry (16:53.465)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean it sounds it sounds real mean. It sounds mean, and I'm always aware when I'm teaching a boot camp, like when I show the Monty Python thing, that when I keep saying like you don't get bonus points for suffering, it doesn't give you any currency that is recognized as you are a a a finer person or deserve more than anyone else because you've had suffering.

and you you're in that category. it doesn't work like that. You just present yourself as a huge pain to people who they wanna not be around.

Kristy (17:36.274)
Yeah, I yeah, i it's true. I mean if if we just become if we stay in the victim role we push people away and then it's proof that people don't love us and it keeps us in the victim role instead of figuring out what it is that we need and and asking for it in a way that our partner can hear it.

Jerry (17:58.342)
Yeah, you know, like I I always wonder about people who you know, like when you see all these Facebook ads or other kind of social media ads for trauma workshops and they've got Gabor Mate's sad face on it and someone else's, you know, like and I I can see like people signing up for that and doing that once, but what about kind of trauma junkies or we used to call trauma mamas who would would repeatedly go to things like that.

and get invested in the act of endless trauma recovery. It seems to me to be self defeating because the real hard part comes when you enter into a relationship with someone else.

Kristy (18:45.499)
Right, that's when all of our our butt buttons get pushed because we're so vulnerable. And the closer we get to the part our partner, the more vulnerable we feel and so it sometimes it gets harder instead of easier when you're closer. 'Cause you have more to lose.

Jerry (19:01.553)
Do you think do you think it helps that you come to see that your partner is wounded too and has had bad stuff happen to them as they grew up?

Kristy (19:14.281)
I mean, absolutely. I think like ninety percent of what's actually happen happening between couples is really just happening on the inside. Like people aren't trying to hurt each other, they're just reacting from so many other stories and and experiences in their life. And I think if you can realize my partner is not my enemy, they just have their own wounds and reactions. Yeah, I think that's huge. But

Jerry (19:36.793)
Mm-hmm. They just have their own wounds in the answer.

Mm-hmm. It's almost like both partners are are carrying around this feeling of I'm inadequate. However, it is you're supposed to be a full grown, healthy woman or a man, I guess I'm not it. You know, that everyone has these inner worries about that. And it's we don't give voice to them because who wants to talk about that stuff out loud? But it affects every party relationship from

Kristy (20:06.732)
Mm.

Jerry (20:11.065)
romanticism to raising children to sex, to money, to employment, you know, whether you feel good about yourself or not.

Kristy (20:21.403)
Yes, exactly. And if you don't feel good about yourself, then you have that story already. And then if you don't feel included in your partner's family, for example, and you go to your partner and you say, I feel left out. I don't feel like your family includes me and then if your partner has his own wounds, then he's gonna respond with, sh you're blaming me. What did I do wrong? And now he's defensive about

Jerry (20:28.111)
Yeah.

Kristy (20:51.197)
what he did wrong or right when instead of being able to hear, I'm so sorry you don't feel included, that's a really hard feeling. What could I do to help you feel included? But because of his wounds he's gonna say, I don't know what else you want from me. I keep telling you that you're part of the family. I mean, I I invite you to everything. I don't know what else you want from me. I'm never gonna do it right. Now it becomes about him and his wounds and how he's felt criticized.

Jerry (20:52.785)
When instead of being able to hear, I'm so sorry you don't feel included. That's a really hard feeling. But because of his wounds he's gonna say, I don't know what else you want from me. I keep that you're part of the family. I mean I I invite you to everything. I don't know what else you want from me. I'm never gonna do it right. Now it becomes about him and his words.

This this i yeah, this is the challenge, right? One wounded person facing off with another wounded person. And it is it's important to realize that not whoever has the greatest wounds wins. You can end up losing yourself and your partner if you don't reach for your partner. I I this is the yeah, go ahead.

Kristy (21:19.775)
Isn't it?

Kristy (21:40.083)
I mean it's well, it's hard to do when you're you're also feeling triggered, but like if we could remember most of what's going on between people is a need for reassurance. But they don't they don't say it that way. But really that's what's underneath most things. Am I okay?

Jerry (21:52.708)
It's true.

Jerry (21:58.258)
definitely. This is a great spot to stop and talk about what workshops we're doing in the upcoming months because you have a ton of and I have one in January. Let's tell people what we're doing and it goes right to these issues. Go ahead. Yeah.

Kristy (22:14.641)
Right. Well I'm doing a relationship boot camp in New York City coming right up on October seventeenth and eighteenth. And I'm doing a boot camp in Salt Lake City November seventh and eighth. And then I'm doing an Enneagram workshop the following weekend, November fourteenth. all of these are really ways

To raise your awareness and to see these blind spots so that you can show up differently in relationships. So instead of being defensive, you can s show up and really listen and hear your partner and understand the role that you're playing in these interactions. Because you can't change your partner, but you can change yourself. And you by changing yourself, you can change the entire relationship.

Jerry (23:04.276)
And the Enneagram one is all day too? Is that many hours? Okay. Yeah, that's all day. and they can find all the links to this on your website as well as loveworkrelationships dot com, right?

Kristy (23:07.721)
Yeah. It's nine to four.

Kristy (23:19.047)
Yes. So relational life counseling dot com and love work relationships dot com. And what about you, Terry?

Jerry (23:24.417)
Excellent. Yeah, in in January, which is only twelve weeks away, I'm doing one called Couples Reset. This is a Zoom-based 90-minute workshop called Couples Reset from Standoff to Connected. And this is because I was hearing so many couples are locked into place with no one giving in.

about I'm not going to feel more connected until we're emotionally connected and I feel safe versus I'm not going to give in until we have something like a sex life again like we used to have and apparently you're not interested in having anymore. So it's like which one happens first is the standoff when actually both need to happen.

And I'm kind of volunteering some ways of making both happen in ninety minutes and it's an interesting conundrum that lots of people are reporting. Lots. Yeah.

Kristy (24:32.71)
Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Excellent. That's awesome. Very needed.

Jerry (24:36.731)
Yeah. Well, thank you. So I was thinking as we're talking about this topic, and you can find that on what is it, thesandsoftime.net or loveworkrelationships dot com, right? Yeah. I was thinking about how in our training, one trainer, let them be anonymous, said in this in RLT work, relational life therapy work, we don't

Kristy (24:50.451)
Yep.

Jerry (25:06.427)
do victims. I heard that statement. We don't do, you know, quote, victims, unquote. meaning we invite people to stand up on their own two feet and take responsibility for their feelings and and yet we focus on the wounded child and some early trauma work as part of this all. I wondered

how that how that flies, how that lands for you hearing that we don't do victims, with regard to the therapist stance, yeah.

Kristy (25:43.306)
I mean for me, I guess I hear that as yes w many of us are victims of some kind of abuse or terrible experience or mistreatment and that's true. But it's never healthy to stay in the victim mindset.

Jerry (26:05.783)
never healthy to stay in the victim mindset.

Kristy (26:09.097)
i you want to become a survivor. You want to have self-empowerment. You want to learn from what's happened to you and then make changes so that you I mean you want to be the one who who controls your life in a sense. Like self actualizes. You don't want to let somebody the way somebody treated you affect who you become in a bad way. It's like maybe all these things have happened to you but yet

Jerry (26:28.291)
you don't want to let somebody the way somebody treated you affect who you become in a bad things have happened to you but yet you don't have a victim mentality. Maybe I hear we don't want to have a victim mentality because then we're stuck and it's miserable place to be. Mm-hmm. People that everything do to try to help they're that won't work. You don't understand, that's horrible. That already Okay

Kristy (26:37.414)
you don't have a victim mentality. To me I hear it as we don't want to have a victim mentality because then we're stuck and it's it's a miserable place to be. People that everything you do to try to help, they're like, that won't work. You don't understand. That's terrible. I already tried that. It's like, Okay, well, I guess that's where you wanna be.

Jerry (26:58.521)
This yeah. This is a really hard kind of person to work with for a therapist. And we can just kind of own that and put that out there, that when we are met with someone who comes in and says, Yeah, I've had three or four therapists before you and they didn't help either. nice to meet you, you know, and then start dismissing or setting aside anything you would

assigned for homework or just automatically going to the this won't work place, you wonder why they're doing therapy in the first place, and if it's not just to have an audience for their suffering. And that sounds really harsh. It sounds really like it borders on being a harsh, unaccepting therapist, but this is not

giving anything for people to work with.

Kristy (28:00.083)
Right. Well, it's right. It's if if you're stuck there it you have to first decide do you want to get out of there really? Like and maybe they don't think they have a choice at the time, but

Jerry (28:12.931)
And don't you feel like you've met people who've been through some incredibly bad adversities, like major abuse, major abuse, and came through and powered through life, determined to not let that define them. That they've they're not just going to be okay, they're gonna excel at things. I've worked with people like that.

And then I've worked with people who define themselves as victims for the silliest things. I mean, like I was on a little league team and I could have hit better than that guy they put in at shortstop, but the coach didn't put me in. And so I was I'm kind of a victim, you know? It's like, what? What? Your family's wealthy. you go to amazing places and summer vacations. How are you a victim? So I guess everyone gets to decide for themselves.

Kristy (28:56.809)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (29:09.431)
If they've been victimized and by what and how, I don't know.

Kristy (29:16.586)
I mean I guess I the word I think it's more about we can honor the experiences we've had and how they've shaped us, but we don't want them to get in the way of of s change and growth. We don't want to use them as excuses to stay stuck.

Jerry (29:31.992)
Yeah. And we are the beacons of intimacy and health as therapists. And not everyone is gonna want to come into that light of of intimacy and health. Some are gonna be on the periphery and maybe they'll come into it years after they stop working with us. That's what I'm thinking. That they'll have a taste of it, they'll get a glimpse of what health looks like.

And they'll find a reason to stop doing the work. disheartening but true.

Kristy (30:06.118)
Yeah, and maybe it's all about timing like you said. Like some people some people are in a place where they don't feel like they can change. You know, maybe they're in an a abusive marriage but they don't have the resources or they don't feel safe leaving their kids with the partner so they they do feel stuck and in those cases it's a matter of timing.

Jerry (30:22.193)
Yeah. We do feel stuck in in those cases. It's a matter of timing. It's important we mentioned that if you're in an abusive relationship, like get out. get out, take care of yourself, go to resources in the community that are there to help you, and do not do not stay in a verbally or physically or sexually abusive relationship. I do know and I've read a lot about reasons why people stay.

And I'm not talking about blaming the victim, but once you've seen things like this from a partner, it usually only gets worse.

Jerry (31:02.885)
That's not our usual couples therapy people who come to us, but occasionally it is. And when that happens, I'm happy to see people step out of the relationship. Yeah.

Kristy (31:04.849)
Mm.

Kristy (31:17.95)
Yeah.

Jerry (31:18.105)
Anyway, kind of a grim topic, but but I thought it was I d the idea of leaving victimhood is hopeful to me. That it is possible to be hurt, really hurt in your life and not accept that as an identity, like I'm the kind of person who just gets hurt and to move on to all sorts of good things.

Kristy (31:20.349)
Yeah.

Kristy (31:41.607)
Yeah, I I like my favorite thing about it is that it is a mindset. It isn't actually what happened to you or what didn't, it's how you see things. And do you see the possibility of growth and change through what you've been through? Or do you wanna just get stuck in that? So it is a mind change shift we can all make if we choose to. And it's empowering.

Jerry (31:44.569)
it mindset. It isn't Rome. It didn't it's how you see things. do you see the possibility of growth and change through you've been through? Or do you

It isn't my change. We can all be choosing. And the weird thing is that h health when you've grown up in non health, health can suddenly seem really unfamiliar and weird and just unfamiliar and change. And we've talked about how change feels wrong at first. So you have to allow yourself the patience to get used to a healthy way of living. It's gonna take a while.

Kristy (32:20.968)
Yeah.

Jerry (32:27.665)
But a good a good therapist and good friends and family can help you get through it.

Kristy (32:36.541)
Yeah, and and coming out of the victim mentality is vulnerable because if you're not a victim that means you need to be doing something differently. So it it is vulnerable to look at yourself.

Jerry (32:44.657)
Okay.

And you're demonstrating to children as well what's acceptable. So when you leave victimhood, if you have a child, you are showing your child that they should expect normal, healthy, and not normal, but healthy, intimate relationships, not anything else. Yeah. Next generation. Well, thank you for talking about this topic with me. Yeah, no, thank you. Yeah. All right.

Kristy (33:12.175)
Yeah, no, thank you. It's a good talk. Something we do see a lot. Okay. Until next time.

Jerry (33:17.263)
Yeah. See see you next time.

Kristy (33:21.821)
Bye.