Fight, Fix, or Flee?
Spotify 
Amazon Music 
Apple Podcasts 
Deezer 
PocketCasts Kristy and Jerry look at 3 of the typical reactions to conflicts within relationships and wrestle with understanding the limitations of all of them. Can there be a different way? What does that look like and sound like?
Hi, you're listening to LoveWork, our podcasts. My name is Jerry Sander. I'm a social worker in the Hudson Valley of New York. My co host is Kristy Gaisford. Hi, Kristy.
Kristy Gaisford:Hi, Jerry, how are ya?
Jerry Sander:Good. For those of you have been listening to our podcast, we're going to be live in the same place in the same time zone, which we haven't been for two years. You want to tell them what's happening?
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, we're gonna have a bootcamp in person. It's our first one in person, May 14 and 15th in Salt Lake City. And we would love to have anyone join us, it's gonna be really exciting to be
Jerry Sander:Yeah, if you're stuck saying, 'I just don't know what to do in this relationship sometime' maybe you DON'T know what to do. And maybe you can come and study some essential relational skills with us. All weekend, it's two days, we have a podcast about the bootcamp. If you scroll on down, you can actually hear more about it. But the opportunity to do it in person, you know, with small breakout rooms, Kristy, I'm very excited about that.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, for for those of you who work in their year, online all day and have said, I just can't do it online on the weekend, this is your chance, definitely to be in the flesh and change up some of those bad patterns that we all get in.
Jerry Sander:And even when we did it online, people were saying the most amazing part was meeting other people in breakout rooms. So we did find a way to adapt it. But the thought of being able to actually see people II and connect. It's just I'm really looking forward to it again.
Kristy Gaisford:I am, too. It's been too long. So the topic today is are you a fighter, a FLIR or a fixer? And how do you how do you get in your own way? When you get triggered? It's usually one of those three things.
Jerry Sander:What if people say"I'm a little bit of each?"
Kristy Gaisford:You might be but yet, there's usually something that you are first, your first initial thing, you might first fight and then flee, you might flee. And then once you're backed into a corner, you fight. But there's usually you do one thing first.
Jerry Sander:So are you saying one or two of these things we shouldn't be doing or?
Kristy Gaisford:None of them are helpful in a relationship. And usually with your partner you do one thing your partner does something. And when you find out what your your wishes are, what you go to, that's the pattern in your relationship. And it repeats itself hundreds of times over the course of your relationship. And if you can recognize it, you can change it not to one of these things that to something healthier. And that's what I want to talk about today.
Jerry Sander:Good. And we're not talking about situations where people have to, for their personal safety, flee and get away from someone who's going to hurt you. We're talking about more garden-variety-within-a-relationship-dynamics, right?
Kristy Gaisford:Yes. Okay. So first are the fighters, the fighters, someone says something and they feel the wish of like,'Oh, you want to fight about this? Okay, bring it on.' And they're immediately triggered to defend themselves and to fight.
Jerry Sander:The name Will Smith comes to mind, y'know?
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, yeah. I can see why. Yes, exactly. I need to fight. So something about fighters, though, that I've noticed throughout all the boot camps who've done is that usually underneath this tough exterior, they are just dying to be heard. And they so badly want to be heard that they can be really overwhelming. They can be overbearing. And they can be loud, and they can be offensive, but they really just want to be heard. And so they're desperately chasing their partner around getting louder and louder because they don't feel like anyone's listening. Okay, so the fears, the fears are the opposite. So they maybe they grew up in a family that people are more walled off. And so when somebody is fighting an intense, instead of being used to that feeling, they're more overwhelmed by it. And so their their reaction to that is to flee. They can they can flee in the moment by just freezing and put up a wall, or they can literally leave the room. But usually they're, they're scared. They feel totally overwhelmed by the energy of the other person. And they feel like the only choice they have is to get away and to get away quickly to protect themselves. And usually, they feel like, I can't handle the intensity of this moment, I can't handle this conflict. I'm overwhelmed by anxiety, and so I have to protect myself.
Jerry Sander:Yeah, we'll talk more about the protect myself thing in a minute. What's the other group?
Kristy Gaisford:And then the last one are the fixers, and the fixers are not, this is not a mature 'Well, let's just talk about this and come up with a solution.' This is I'm super anxious, 'I can't handle the anxiety of the conflict and of the unrest of this moment. And so I need to hurry and fix it all. By putting a bandaid over it and making everybody calm down fast, because I can't handle what's happening.' So it's not a it's not a healthy reaction. No,
Jerry Sander:This is the classic codependent person, right? 'I can only feel okay, if you feel better.' Yeah.
Kristy Gaisford:Yes. Yep, so those are the three. And that the thing is, they all make a lot of sense why people do those things, why it feels safe to them. And why none of it is, is productive. It just gets us in worse situations with our partner.
Jerry Sander:All of these groups are checking out how to make something safe, that they're all needing safety and security. Yes, I have that pletely in common with each other, even though the expression of it is different. If they're looking at a situation thining 'This is not right. This is not good. I have to...'
Kristy Gaisford:Yes. Yes, it that's what I wanted, one reason I wanted to talk about it. Because I think if you can understand, we all understand our why we do what we do. Everyone makes sense to themselves. But our partners have often don't make sense to us if they do something opposite. But if we can understand what's behind it, it can help us to have empathy, and be less reactive. So I'll start with fighters. But if fighters understand how overwhelming they are, which they don't usually understand that a lot of times they grew up in a fighting family, and what it feels normal to them. This is what we do. You speak your mind you speak loudly. And that's how you get heard. And if you have two fighters, well, that's different and you, you can really be an explosive couple. But if you have one fighter and one FLIR, for example, it can be very overwhelming. So fighters need to realize that in order to be heard, they need to be softer. If you think of like a scared animal that's cowering in a corner, they need to soften their tone and make it safe for their partner to come back out and engage with them. And they'll never be heard, the fighter will never be heard at at that intense level. Because nobody can listen to that. It's an
Jerry Sander:Interesting concept that you can, you can make it safe for someone else to listen to you. By changing your tone...
Kristy Gaisford:And fleers, they need to realize that all relationships are in a constant state of harmony, disharmony and repair. And that conflict is a part of any relationship. And they can't just run away anytime there's a conflict. They need to learn how to have healthy boundaries for themselves meaning, okay, I can handle this. I just need to put up a boundary to protect myself. I need to love myself, hold myself in warm regard in this space. And then listen to my partner with curiosity. Because if if a fighting partner is really listened to, they'll calm down. The more they feel like you're walling off and pushing them away, the louder they'll get. But if you can, if you can just hold space for them and protect yourself. Then they'll calm down and feel heard. And, and you can show up to the conversation without being so afraid of it.
Jerry Sander:I think you just answered the question 'So if we're not supposed to do these three, what are we supposed to do?' I think it's everything you just said, getting getting to that middle place where you can do that. It's a skill, right?
Kristy Gaisford:Yes, it takes a lot of practice. And to finish out the fixer, fixers need to learn same thing to handle discomfort, you can't fix everything. And it's not your job to
Jerry Sander:It's sort of arrogant to think you can, right? Yeah, right.
Kristy Gaisford:And, you know, it's not your job. So sometimes you just, you have to speak out and say what you want. And it might not be what your partner wants,
Jerry Sander:Oh, that's really hard. If it was their job in their family, you know, if they were, if they were raised that way, where that that was the Elmers Glue that kept the family together. And then now they're suddenly adults doing it, and the partner doesn't appreciate it. It's really hard for them to comprehend, it's not my job.
Kristy Gaisford:Well, all of these are hard to comprehend, because they're so deeply rooted when we're really triggered. And we're just taken over by that wish, it does feel like our life depends on it. A fighter feels like, 'if I'm not hurt, I'm gonna die'. Right and a fleer feels like, 'if I don't get out of here, I'm gonna die.' And a fixer feels like, 'If I don't hurry, make this nice somehow, and please this person, I'm gonna die. I can't handle this.' And that sounds dramatic, but it's true. And when when you feel something that is so much stronger than the situation requires, its historical, it's something from your past. That is that is exaggerating everything that's happening inside of you. And that's why you feel like your survival depends on it.
Jerry Sander:One of the interesting things we do in that type of therapy we do is definitely acknowledge the past, and the power the that child has had over the developing personality, and then try and weave it into a clearer look at what your behaviors are doing now, to maybe repeat the past or somehow somehow work through something without thinking about it. So I think we do that, in an honest and I don't know respectable way respecting the past without thinking that's going to have to continue that way.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, I agree. And it requires, I think it requires one person in the couple, staying in their functional adult self and seeing what's happening. You know, oh, my partner is fighting. Because they're come, they come from a fighting family, and they're triggered to either stay calm, because if you both, if you're both too triggered at the same time, you're going to jump back into the old, the old pattern,
Jerry Sander:just thinking of the classic fighter being paired with a fixer as being like the Distancer/ Pursuer that other vocabularies use in couples therapy. It's just takes a lot of work to find that middle ground.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, I've heard I've heard a lot of people in boot camp say, and like fighter say, 'it's so lonely to be with fleer because I just want to have a conversation. And every time I bring something up, that's difficult, they disappear on me'. And if they just feel so desperate for their partner, just come to the table. But then I've heard fleers say, 'I feel so anxious when I feel that intensity or any sort of anger, that my whole body just shuts down.' And I think it's, if you're a fleer and you're the one that can't see, you know, that gets overwhelmed by conflict, then I think and you don't want your partner to come to you in their intensity then it's up to you to go back to them when you're feeling okay, and say, 'Hey, I know I wasn't ready to talk about this, but I'm ready now. And I you know, I can have this conversation.'
Jerry Sander:You know, it might not be clear to people how NOT being a fixer is a good thing. That fixing sounds so nice. You know, it's like that Coldplay song we've always used in the boot camps 'Fix You', you know. But fixing is another weird way of not just standing up for yourself with good boundaries and speaking for what you need.
Kristy Gaisford:Right. And if you're always a fixer, you're going to have resentment and anger down the road that's going to come out in other ways, usually in passive aggressive comments, because you've, you've been fixing, fixing, fixing, taking care of the other person. And at some point, you get pretty angry about it.
Jerry Sander:And I keep being struck by how wrong change feels at first, the first few times if you're a fixer that you don't jump into a situation and trying to automatically repair it, when you hold back from it, and watch, it just happened without your input. And understand you probably never did control the outcome anyway, it feels absolutely wrong. It feels flat out wrong. And maybe the second time, it's still really difficult because it just doesn't feel right. Maybe the third time you can tolerate it. When you get to like five times, you've begun to change the habit to really change habit. And, you know, with the support of other people or a therapist or something, you can definitely reverse it.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, I had a therapist, and I'm so grateful to him, because he, it was really hard to hear, I'll be honest with you, but he looked at me in the eye and he said, How old are you? I was in my 40s. And in he said, You're in your 40s? And I said yes. And he just stared at me again. And like, this is uncomfortable. And he said, you're still taking the bait? Why are you jumping in for a fight? And it really, I mean, it really made me stop in my tracks like, what am I doing? I'm still taking the bait. I don't have to. Which is funny and obvious. But it's not like you feel like you have to do to defend yourself. But then you start to realize, Wait, why do I have to? If I, if I feel okay about myself? Do I really have to defend myself? Every time? Or can I just say, Okay, you can think that was fine.
Jerry Sander:It was pretty hard getting to that point though, wasn't it?
Kristy Gaisford:Oh, yeah, totally is the same therapist who looked at my husband and I who were were both fighters. So that's pretty. And and he said, You guys are both dying to be seen. You're like little children. Well, it feels so bad. But then it feels so good. Because once you can see it, you can change it. So, I mean, I think therapy is very uncomfortable. But in the best way. I like to say to my clients, I'm glad you feel bad. Because you're that you feeling bad about that is going to change your behavior. You're developing an allergy to the way you've behaved your whole life. And that's what you need in order to change. If you don't feel bad about it, you're just gonna keep doing it.
Jerry Sander:Absolutely right. And that's the difference between a therapy person or a couple who wants to change even if it doesn't feel pleasant all the time and one who just comes to therapy to just unload'Here's what happened to me this week' and not change.
Kristy Gaisford:I mean, are you comfortable saying what you were? Are you a fleer?
Jerry Sander:I'm just wondering if you could be what primarily one of these for a certain part of your life and then a different one. For a later part in your life.
Kristy Gaisford:I think you can because I feel like I've changed. Yeah.
Jerry Sander:How do you...you go first? How do you feel you've changed?
Kristy Gaisford:Well, in my first marriage, I was I was more of a fixer. Like, I felt like I had to make everything smooth and okay. So that things didn't get worse. So I was a lot more of a fixer and I think I got really fed up with being a fixer. And so I I refuse to do that anymore. And that was that was growth for me. But
Jerry Sander:It's hard because it's like the fixing fails. You know?
Kristy Gaisford:It does fail. It totally fails.
Jerry Sander:Plus, you're a therapist, and feeling like failing at fixing something does it go well with the feeling of being a good therapist?
Kristy Gaisford:No, but eventually just start to realize I can I can only fix myself. I can't fix another person. I can't fix the situation. So I think that's what changed me was therapy, Terry real, all this knowledge of like this. This isn't healthy. You have to just focus on what you can change which is ultimately yourself.
Jerry Sander:I think you can achieve great things in therapy. And not just a short term model, not just a solution focused model. And not just the type of couples therapy model that we use our RLT model. But even in longer term psychotherapy, I think if you're willing to really look at yourself, as you said, with discomfort, that's where you're going to grow from. So I think I understood that I was, by my nature, a fighter, even though it might not have seemed that way. But I was such a good boy, I repressed it and pulled it in as much as I could, and developed strong skills that fixing and probably serve that but scratched the surface, and there was a fighter there. And there would be like, a middle period of my life with a fighter really emerged, and became primarily what I was, like, fixing be damned, you know, I don't care about fixing anymore. And then, yeah, in my later years, I like to feel I've stepped outside these three. On a good day.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah. That's funny, I can relate to that. Because even though it was a fixer, I think I was an angry fixer, like, I would fix but then I'd go around the corner and release like, yeah, 'Damn this!' you know, so I can I can relate to that suppressing the anger,
Jerry Sander:What does it feel like? Let's explain to people as best we can, what it feels like to be in a different place not doing these three things, but still having situations that push our buttons.
Kristy Gaisford:It feels, to me it feels it feels like freedom, like the freedom of being able to see what I would have done, and what I'm choosing to do differently, and to feel like I actually have a choice now. And it feels empowering to make the different choice and see how my relationship is better because of it. And to realize that I have control over that.
Jerry Sander:I think you said it, the word is choice. I think when we get to the point where we understand, we don't have to just react but have the choice. But what we want to say and do. To me, that's a moment of becoming a real adult. That's what it feels like to me. Not not even, yes, freedom, freedom to not be reacting as a child in an automatic way. But a feeling of goodness about finally being a grown up. And I don't have to make things worse with my response. I know how to, you know, you and I shown that to each other.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah. Yeah, it feels like maturity.
Jerry Sander:Mm hmm. To finally have it. And I don't think a lot of people know these ways. Or they'll feel like, well, I would do that. But he wouldn't. So why bother? You know, why should I be the one to get all Mr. Rogers, the you know, when they're gonna not be changing? How would you answer that?
Kristy Gaisford:I would say that your relationship can change drastically. Even if only you change. And even if it doesn't change, you still get to keep your self esteem because you like the person you are if you're behaving in a way that you respect. And you won't get in the same patterns, because it is hard to sit and fight with yourself. And so...
Jerry Sander:Yeah, yeah. So when you're stepping outside these three automatic responses, and you're daring to stay with the person and not pull any of these three on the person. What appears is vulnerability, a greater level of vulnerability because it feels uncomfortable. Uncomfortable, to be that honest.
Kristy Gaisford:Exactly. And if you're not fighting, when you're fighting, you're complaining in a fighting way. When you're when you're fleeing, you're just not facing it. And when you're fixing, you know, you're not asking for what you want, you're fixing somebody else. So you're right. When you're in a healthy place. It's vulnerable, because you're requesting you're saying, Yeah, hey, I really need you to be here for me. I, I would really appreciate it. If you would, you know, fill in the blank. Would you be willing to do that? And you're you have to use your voice and ask for it and be willing to get a yes or no.
Jerry Sander:Yeah, and it is a genuine invitation. And this is personal as you can get, this is what I would like, I was just gonna say that that I think this is, if you step out of him automatic responses and you start speaking with your heart, you find yourself using the word I, here's what I would like to say, or here's what I need. And that is not an arguing kind of response is kind of resets the level of everything as to 'Well, I don't know what you need or want'. And that's the truth. I can just speak with what about what I want, and then the other the other person can approach you with their honesty, or not, you know?
Kristy Gaisford:And, you know, this sounds kind of easy when we just sit here and talk about it. But our society doesn't model this kind of healthy behavior.
Jerry Sander:Would there be any of these wars? If they did? You know?
Kristy Gaisford:Right? No. People aren't taught how to stand up and just have a mature adult conversation and respect each other's differences.
Jerry Sander:And, and to realize you can be around someone else who's having a really bad day, and have that not be something you have to fix, and not be something that really brings you down in a big way, either. That's...
Kristy Gaisford:Can you Yeah, can you say more about that, like how?
Jerry Sander:How is to be real clear about who you are like where your body stops, and their body starts. And there's some space in between, like, really become grounded and humble in your own body boundary. And then realize your whole emotional life is your own, they've got their own story. They may or may not be acting in their own behalf doing the best thing. And if they're asking for your opinion on something you can give it. But that's it. That's that's where the illusion of power ends. So...
Kristy Gaisford:Do you think that's a really difficult thing for people?
Jerry Sander:Yes, I do. I do. Because it's like an autopilot. It just gets switched on automatically when when say a fixer see someone in need. You know, they've got like radar for who in this room is hurting? Oh, that person? You know,
Kristy Gaisford:I think all three of them. If I think all three of these could get triggered just by that you see your partner, bad mood, a fighter so you can assume it's their fault and say, What's your problem? Are you in a bad mood? Is it my fault? What did I do or whatever. And if fleer could be like, 'Oh, no, he's in a bad mood, I gotta get out of here!' And a fixer. Like you said, 'Oh, no, what can I do, he's in a bad mood! I better fix it, I better do something.'
Jerry Sander:That's why the issue to me was safety and security for all three, like if this if each of them felt safe, they could stick around. And then to use a word that you used before inquire of their partner what's going on? For them? And and be able to listen with a boundary and accept what part of is really about you and reject what part not about you, but it's about them being in a bad mood, or them being a historical argument with a parent or son.
Kristy Gaisford:Right? Well, I think this is hard to learn. But once you do, it's very empowering. Because I remember I used to, I used to feel like a fixer in that way, like, oh, no, he's in a bad mood. What am I going to do? What should I do to make it better? So this doesn't explode or something?
Jerry Sander:For therapists it's a really bad occupational hazard. Because if you can't end the session, feel like you did a really good job with your work, because they're maybe not happy right now. I have to fix that somehow. If you have that belief, it's going to be a grueling private practice you have, yeah.
Kristy Gaisford:But now, if my husband's in a bad mood, I can just say, Oh, that's too bad. He's in a bad mood. I hope he has a better day later. And I'm not in a bad mood.
Jerry Sander:You don't consider that sounding fake or cold or anything?
Kristy Gaisford:No, it's just like, We're different people. People have different moods. It's not about me. Like I can, I can say, 'Hey, do you need need help with anything? No, I'm good. Okay.' Like I can still have a great day. He can have a crummy day and
Jerry Sander:And like there's a chance to inquire later on in the day. Wow. What's it been like being you today? Or what has it what did it go like when you were clearly not feeling too well, you know, just inquire. If there's a chance to inquire, that's fine. It doesn't mean you've taken it on as your project that you're supposed to fix.
Kristy Gaisford:Right and haven't taken it personally. Mm hmm.
Jerry Sander:That that a lot of people in couples do that. Think, what is this saying about me? They're in a bad mood. What does it say about me? I'm not the right kind of wife. I'm not the right kind of man. You know, that just immediately personalize it.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, 'What did I do? Am I gonna be in trouble?'
Jerry Sander:Meanwhile, the cause may be the other person is feeling 15 pounds overweight and hates it.
Kristy Gaisford:Or they had a bad day at work. And it has nothing to do with their partner. Mm hmm.
Jerry Sander:Yeah. So I mean, that was a hard one for me to learn, because I started out as a narcissist. So I just had to, to understand that someone may be having a bad day, and it wasn't about me. Was the challenge. And then a relief? What a relief or what I don't it? Is it really? Yeah. I don't control that person's mood.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, I think it's really important for people to figure out what they are. And so that they can correct it. So if you're, if you're a fighter, know that you're going to be pushing your partner away. Or that you're going to be starting a fight.
Jerry Sander:I mean, maybe a way to understand this without a stigma, is that you needed this at a time in your life, you needed to become this way. You 100% needed to get this way. Now, in your relationship, do you really need to be this way? Can you can just step up to the next level, and not interact on that level anymore? Because you won't need it with this person.
Kristy Gaisford:I love I'm so glad you brought that up. Because you're absolutely right. They were all needed. That's why they form fighters learned to fight because they were protecting themselves. And it did save them in childhood, that it taught them to be strong and to protect themselves and stand up for themselves and fears. They learned how to get out of the way and protect themselves by leaving an unsafe situation. And fixers saying they learned how to be the nice, the nice kid that was the peacemaker that smooth everything over and made sure that everyone was okay. So you're right, all of these things did serve them in childhood. And we should be grateful to that part of us that saved us. And it doesn't serve us in our intimate relationships.
Jerry Sander:So many people bring the way they're adapted to their mother and father, and early years into their relationship with the person in their life right now. And almost fight the same battles. Even though the channel has changed to a brand new person. They're fighting the old battles. And get defensive if you even mentioned anything about the reason why. But when they calm down in some kind of good therapy, they can understand Oh, yeah, it's not really about her. Just the way I am, the way I learned to be. And I think he came to it all on a story like he came to be that way for great reasons. But the invitation is to stop doing that stuff. Now that you're not at home. When you're not little anymore. You can invent a whole better way for your kids to watch. It's like leaving a version of you behind though. Scary.
Kristy Gaisford:It is. It is scary. Because you feel like you're leaving behind your defense mechanism, your protection...
Jerry Sander:Your identity, like this is who I am. Yeah.
Kristy Gaisford:I guess we were here to say that. That that mature adult part of you. It feels a lot better.
Jerry Sander:And I think the results are there in our relationships, too, where things that used to be a three or four day freeze out, shutdown, getting back at someone for something is now a confusion for 15 or 20 minutes and then worked out with good feeling and left behind.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, a lot of time that isn't wasted in fighting.
Jerry Sander:Yeah, maybe we can see your results. I mean, we see these results through our work. that people who just used to waste a lot of their week and month and year, believing they're with an enemy in their house, just lose that. And you suddenly get untold hours, months years back with a person you say love being on a good wavelength instead of a crummy one. And there are really ways of switching it up. And that is what we've been teaching in these 11-12 Boot Camps we've done.
Kristy Gaisford:I just wanted to mention, if you're, if you are with a fixer, it's important for you to make space for them. And make sure you ask them what they want. 'Hey, you don't need to fix this. What would you like to do? What do you want? It doesn't always have to be about me.'
Jerry Sander:They would have a hard time hearing that wouldn't they?
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, they would, but they they need to. They need to to grow and be healthier. So I'm just I want to throw that out there. Because if you think you're married to a fixer, you probably love it because fixers, make it easier for non fixers, but for them to really grow and be healthier. Make room for them. Ask them what they want.
Jerry Sander:Yeah, don't don't be too confident if you're married to a fixer and just loving it and thinking you're, it's smooth sailing. If you're not getting the real, genuine person showing up and talking about their own needs. There may be some growing resentment that will one day erupt.
Kristy Gaisford:Yup. And you said you said a couple of times, it's just so true that all of this is about safety. So ask yourself, What am I so afraid of? Why am I fighting this so fiercely? Or why am I hiding from this? Why can't I what am I so afraid of? And just having the hard conversation? Or why do I feel like I have to fix everything immediately? What am I afraid of? And how can you step up to that challenge from your adult place, and, and have the conversation. They're not your enemy. Like you said, there's someone that you love that loves you. And if you can start there, the conversation will go a lot better. Just to be a little more specific. If this sounds too abstract, I mean, if you're, if you're somebody who gets very defensive very quickly, what you might find, through therapy, or just a lot of reflection that you felt like you were very criticized in by your mother, for example. And so you're you always feel like you have to defend yourself. And now you're married. And your partner asks you something, and you get really defensive really quickly. This these are how things repeat themselves. Like you've learned how to defend yourself, because you had to all those years, but now suddenly, your partner gets the brunt of it. And they never, they're not even trying to start a fight with you. They're just asking, but because of two decades of someone criticizing you, you're now become very defensive, you become a fighter. And as you you know, as you see this, you can start to calm down, you can start to be less reactive.
Jerry Sander:Yeah, being a fighter isn't the coolest version of you. Right? The best version of you. Not even the most interesting version of you.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, none of these things are, right?
Unknown:Really. So when you drop this in, you're approaching the other person in some other new way. And we said you felt really vulnerable. It nearly is a naked kind of intimacy. Because again, what happens if you start interacting this way and your partner doesn't doesn't make that change? You know, they're still on the same older kind of energy. Do you want to answer that one, Kristy?
Kristy Gaisford:Well, I mean, this is one reason I want to do this is because if you are in one of these stances, fight or flight or fix, you're not seeing your partner at all. You're only seeing yourself and defending yourself. And if so, if you can stay centered and grounded, then at least you can see your partner. So if I see that my partner's really defensive. I know he's scared, and I know that it's a different part of him that wants to be heard. So if I stay quiet and listen, I can make the situation better. If my partner is a FLIR I know that they're, they're afraid of having this conversation. And they're protecting themselves. So I can have more compassion and coax them out of that. Or at least try from a healthy place. Or a fixer, I can say, 'Oh, you're just, you don't need to fix this, let's just talk about it or whatever.' But if I can stay centered, I can actually see my partner, instead of being absorbed, self absorbed, by my own need to be right and protected.
Jerry Sander:I think that seeing your partner in a new way, is some amazing thing that starts happening, either on its own or in couples therapy, where you just understand that you've been thinking about them a certain way, instead of really seeing who they are in this moment, and fully appreciating who they are in this moment. It's a major turning point.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, they don't, they're not scary anymore. Now, you're just curious about them? Like, why don't I just get really curious about what they're trying to say or what they're feeling?
Unknown:Why aren't people are more curious, because they think if they say I do when they get married, you can stop wondering about the other person?
Kristy Gaisford:Because we're too self absorbed with our own story. We're too worried about being right or too worried about proving that we're enough.
Jerry Sander:Yeah. You know, when I worked in a school job, at the end of the hallway was a big full length mirror, that a lot of the girls would stand in front of fixing up their appearances and stuff. And then I realized, like, no one in that hallway was really even looking at each other or checking each other out. Because they've just checking themselves in the mirror, as they walked past, they just wanted to check themselves out.
Kristy Gaisford:And if we're more secure about who we are as a person, then we can really be there for a partner. Because we don't have to prove anymore, that we're worthy.
Jerry Sander:Without even knowing our partners going to respond in their best version. They might. And your odds are much better. If you've just been calm and relaxed and inviting that you'll get that response, but they might not. Yeah, they might either way, it's still a win for you.
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah, it's like you say it's a, it's a good day for you. It's a mixed day for the relationship. It's a bad day for your partner. But it's still a good day for you.
Jerry Sander:That's like the ultimate hard thing for a fixer to understand. You know,
Kristy Gaisford:Oh, my gosh, when I first heard that, I it was one of the best things I ever heard, because I had never considered that I could have a good day if my marriage had a bad day. And it was kind of a relief. Like, my, me having a good day and succeeding at this isn't dependent on how my partner reacts. I can still have a good day, and feel good about my my behavior aside.
Jerry Sander:Why does that sounds so wrong to people? Because it goes right up against this romantic view of being in a couple, you know that if my partner stumbles, I'll be there and I'll lift their mood, you know, or as like in EFT or co-regulate their mood or something. It almost sounds like we're advocating being cold.
Kristy Gaisford:I just think we're realistic that you really can't, you can try. It's not like we're saying don't try. Don't be kind and warm. But if you try and you're kind and warm, and they aren't responsive, because sometimes they're not, then...
Jerry Sander:So if you say'Would you like me to make you some tea?' And they go 'No! It's not about the tea!' and they start crying some more... And then you will offer something else and they go 'No!', then you ask, well, 'What could I do that would help you?'And they go'Leave me alone! Nothing!', you know, then you can say you've done a good job. And I can continue having my good day, right?
Kristy Gaisford:Yeah. And it doesn't mean you can't wish them well, and you're hurt. Like, I'm sorry, they're going through that I wish I could help but it seems that they need time alone. So instead of falling apart or saying, getting mad, which what you want to do is you're gonna get all I'm doing is trying to help you don't have to be so rude to me. I'm sitting here offering you tea and you keep yelling at me, you know, like we want to jump in the mud.
Jerry Sander:So to be able to start an argument. Yeah. But to join the argument because I feel like they just started it already, right? Mm hmm.
Kristy Gaisford:It takes a lot of willpower or I don't know what you want to call it self control to say, You know what, I'm sorry. They're in this place. And I'm going to go read a book and yeah, not jump in there with him.
Jerry Sander:Yep, takes judgment.
Kristy Gaisford:Maturity
Jerry Sander:It feels good. And get used to it, it gets to the point where it's the only way you could actually be, you know, with integrity, it just becomes your new way.
Kristy Gaisford:It does and then acting the old way doesn't feel right anymore. It feels like I don't do that anymore. Or at least I really don't want to. It's rare.
Jerry Sander:Well, we know how challenging these changes can be. So again, I want to encourage whoever's living west of the Mississippi, to come to Salt Lake City and practice and learn this stuff with us for two days in May. And I think we're going to do more on the East Coast too. So I feel like it's so free or somehow you know,
Kristy Gaisford:We can finally see people and be in groups. Yeah, no, I'm excited for this.
Jerry Sander:We'll see you next time, huh?
Kristy Gaisford:Yes. Thanks, Jerry. Fun as always. Bye.