Are You Curious About Your Partner?

Jerry (00:02)
Hey, you're listening to Love Work Skills for a Relational Life. I'm Jerry Sander, my co-host, Kristy Gaisford Good to see you, Kristy.

Kristy Gaisford (00:09)
Good to see you too. It's been a while.

Jerry (00:12)
We have disappeared since April and at least one person was wondering where did they go? Like what happened? Were they abducted by ICE agents off the street or what? You want to say what it was?

Kristy Gaisford (00:29)
⁓ We just took a break for summer but we forgot to say anything about it.

Jerry (00:35)
Yeah, it's

like we took a real timeout without telling anyone, we're about to take a big timeout. So we thought that was a good time to have summer and was, right?

Kristy Gaisford (00:48)
Yeah, how was your summer?

Jerry (00:51)
I hate thinking of it past tense, but because the corn is just getting good now and I just made my first batch of gazpacho and that's really to me that's like summer, you know? I'm still enjoying it. How about you?

Kristy Gaisford (00:54)
Not yet, but...

No,

I am too. It's going very quickly, but I'm enjoying it.

Jerry (01:10)
Yeah. So we're

not over, but we're going to, we're back though. And we had talked about what to talk about, you know, after so many podcasts and so many subjects is are there really new subjects? And there are variations on things that we've talked about that we wanted to hone in on. And I felt strongly about this topic as something that really could benefit people to focus.

about and that is curiosity about your partner and I know the next booth the next podcast we're going to do is related but this is very relevant because this shows up in my practice session after session after session that curiosity is lacking what do you say

Kristy Gaisford (02:05)
Mm-hmm.

yeah. It's just that we get so stuck in both people want the other person to understand. And so they're so busy trying to be heard and explain their point of view and where they're coming from that it's hard to hold space for their partner and have curiosity.

of actually understanding. So both people are just talking past each other and not really hearing or understanding what their partner is even saying.

Jerry (02:40)
Why do you think it's so hard for people to arrive at a position of curiosity?

Kristy Gaisford (02:47)
Because I think that our ego gets in the way. We feel misunderstood ourselves and we feel...

this defensiveness and this need to explain. I think because we tend to project a lot onto our partner that isn't there. So for example, we think that when our partner said one thing, they meant another. Like if our partner said, ⁓ I...

I wish that we had more time together and that I was a bigger priority in your life. Maybe our partner hears, you're a terrible partner and you're really selfish and you're never there for me. And so then they're reacting to that instead of what was really a veiled request for more time. I wasn't trying to criticize you. was trying to tell you that I love you and I want more time with you.

Jerry (03:50)
Yeah. And the tragedy of that is that no one says, I'm not sure I really understand what you're meaning. Could you explain it a different way? Which would be curious, you know? And to me that involves a certain amount of humility. Like I don't really understand to even say that. I don't really understand what you're saying is

Kristy Gaisford (04:04)
Yeah.

Jerry (04:19)
assuming it's real and not some ploy is a step in the right direction, I think.

Kristy Gaisford (04:25)
Yeah,

yeah, I'm not sure I understand. Can you help me understand what you mean by that? I would love or even starting with an agreement like, yeah, I would love to spend more time with you. What exactly would that look like for you? Because some a lot of times I think we react with.

Jerry (04:31)
Yeah.

Kristy Gaisford (04:47)
Wait, what are you asking for from me? Like this sort of like defense to defend our own time and boundary instead of like a leaning in. ⁓ And that's kind of instinctual. So. Mm-hmm.

Jerry (04:53)
Yeah.

Hmm, like just automatic.

Kristy Gaisford (05:09)
I think we also make up what our partner behavior means.

Jerry (05:09)
So.

Yeah. I mean, I think of it as almost, you know, we've talked about looking at your partner through, ⁓ tinted sunglasses and you know, everything they do looks blue or brown or green. This is almost like listening to your partner through tinted hearing aids or something too. You know, it's just, ⁓ what you're hearing, you think, you know, what's going on and, and you have all these assumptions about your partner and that is.

Kristy Gaisford (05:28)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Right.

Jerry (05:46)
your enemy to me that's an enemy. I want to tell a story that's okay. It's an old, this is decades, decades and decades ago. was, ⁓ in my first marriage, I went down to my in-laws house for, ⁓ Christmas, I guess it was. And they didn't, I guess they didn't know what to get me. So they bought me a,

Kristy Gaisford (05:51)
Okay, yeah.

Jerry (06:15)
Calendar or something funny that had pigs on it? No, I'm not gonna say anything passive aggressive about it, but they thought it was really cute It was like a cute calendar and baby pigs and stuff and I looked at it and said ⁓ Thank you because I was being nice and you know, I didn't know what I was gonna do with this calendar of pigs

And ⁓ they said, you like it? And I said, yeah, yeah, thank you. And from that moment on, any time it was any occasion to give Jerry anything, it was pig related. It was like a wasp's basket with an embroidered pig on it or something else. I don't know. They never really, I guess they asked me once, like, did you like that? And I said, yeah. So ⁓ that was it.

Kristy Gaisford (06:54)
my gosh. What? Why do they think you liked pigs? my gosh.

Jerry (07:10)
asked me, what's your favorite animal? You know, and if they had, yeah, I became the pig guy. And if they'd asked me about my favorite animal, it would have been probably my little spirit animal of a turtle or a dog. And I would have been happy getting dog calendars forever, you know, but it was never asked. They never wondered about me.

Kristy Gaisford (07:15)
Yeah, they just said, you're the pig guy.

No.

Jerry (07:39)
They took a wild guess and I was polite. Now I'll tell that story because I think a version of that goes on in couples. That they offer something, the other person's like, ⁓ you know, thank you, because they're nice. And then from there on, they have that person kind of pegged, you know?

Kristy Gaisford (07:53)
Yeah. Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Jerry (08:01)
without really inquiring or checking or really wanting to know.

Kristy Gaisford (08:07)
Yeah, I think that all the time too. ⁓ I just had a couple that he wanted her to do the laundry a certain way because it made the most sense to him. And she said okay, but she really didn't buy into it.

But instead of asking why that was important to him and what his thought process was about it, she just kind of said, OK, but with not a lot of intention on following through because she didn't believe it, or she didn't agree. But so much.

Jerry (08:48)
So she couldn't

get to the point of just saying, huh. She just had to.

Kristy Gaisford (08:53)
She just said, yeah,

OK. But then she didn't do it. So then it would cause these big arguments. But what we unpacked in the whole hour is all the things that were assumed and all the things that were left unsaid. And so much of that.

could have been solved if there was real curiosity. But so many times, think even questions can seem, we can even assume the questions are challenging. Like, well, why are you asking? Can I not just ask you for this? Do you know what I'm talking about?

Jerry (09:25)
That's so interesting.

That is so interesting.

Yes. And you know, one of our most popular podcasts was about ⁓ emotional affairs and the rush that people get when they meet someone who doesn't really know anything about you yet. And they're, they're brand new to you and they have all kinds of questions about your interesting self, you know? And, ⁓

Kristy Gaisford (09:38)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Jerry (10:00)
People feel so alive and seen and valued by that freshness. And then, you know, when you're settled with someone in a long-term intimate relationship, if the questioning and the interest and the freshness goes away, you can really understand the appeal of someone, you know, not taking you for granted and being fascinated to ask you questions. That just...

Kristy Gaisford (10:26)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (10:27)
seems to make you like a sitting duck if your relationship is really lacking in curiosity and wonderment, that your partners would risk for going out there and meeting someone who is kind of fascinated and want to know what it's like to be them.

Kristy Gaisford (10:44)
Yeah, that's true. And it's also a lot easier to be fascinated by somebody when your own ego isn't at stake yet. Because, you know, it's not really about me so I can listen to you all day and be empathetic. But if we live together and you're complaining about something I did, it's harder to keep that in check.

Jerry (10:55)
Yes, it's,

Yeah, it's make believe

in a lot of ways because it's, ⁓ it's just the initial surface. I think it's true that if you live with someone long enough, or for any period of time, you really do get to know a lot about their ways and the way they do things. Now, this is different from, think, knowing everything or thinking, you know, everything, but you certainly know like,

Kristy Gaisford (11:15)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (11:36)
where they put their vitamins, where they like to put things at night, know? ⁓ What they like to do for holidays. ⁓ And how they interact with family members. Just like all these things, you really, really get to know. But it doesn't mean you know what's going on emotionally in that person at all.

I was thinking about this, like a couple where maybe they meet when they're very young and they meet in New York city or something. And their favorite thing to do is go out to midnight bowling. You know, that's like a young person, cool thing to do, you know? And then, ⁓ flash forward to, you know, 15 years or something. And they've got two small children at home and they're maybe married and, ⁓ do they

Kristy Gaisford (12:17)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (12:34)
Remember even going to midnight bowling. How do they feel about that not being in their life right now? Do they? Make assumptions about each other having Not doing it anymore. You know, is it just below the surface that they miss it? If they miss that kind of adventure I Have another story of really have more stories than thoughts here today just questions really

But also in my first marriage, ⁓ there was some occasion, and I've told this one in boot camps, there was some occasion where ⁓ something was being celebrated and my then wife asked, should I make a pasta salad? And I said, yeah, okay, that'd be great, thank you. She made it. And you know, wasn't too good. And I didn't say anything, I just said thank you, I'm a nice guy, you know, I said thank you very much.

And then the next ⁓ event happened or something in our family. And she said, I'll make a pasta salad and we could do this and this. And I said, ⁓ great, great. And we went this way for years. And finally the pasta salad was. It was like a wishbone dressing on it. It was like mushy. was like non-distinctive. was nothing really good to recommend about it. And finally, like one year, she said, I'll make a pasta salad. And I hesitated a half a second before I said, okay. And she said to her credit.

She asked, you do like the pasta salad, don't you? And I said, actually, no, I don't. And she said, you know what? I didn't either.

And we just never explored that. We never even asked. We just did the usual. And how many couples do the usual thing and then get quietly upset and separate from each other and don't even talk about it?

Kristy Gaisford (14:25)
Right.

Right, and when that happens, that's when a lot of negative assumptions can be made too. Like, thought you were withdrawing from me because you didn't want to be with me anymore. And like, what? I was just reacting to you, because you seemed to be mad at me. And we start to assume a lot of negative things that aren't even there as a reaction.

But I was going to say, I do think there's natural stages to relationships. when people fall in love, like we talk about the love without knowledge stage, people look for all of the things in common. Oh my gosh, you like that, so do I. You love that, so do I. And you like find, you feel so close because you've found all of the similarities and things that bond you. But then eventually, after a couple, two or three years together,

Jerry (15:16)
That's That's right.

Kristy Gaisford (15:31)
you start to realize how different you are. And yeah, we're not just bonded by all our similarities. We're like, wait a minute, we aren't all the same. We're actually very different. Why do you do things that way? And it can feel lonely and alienating at first because you're like, we used to have so much in common and now...

Jerry (15:35)
We notice different things, right?

Kristy Gaisford (15:56)
Now we seem so different and why are we butting heads? But I do think that is where the curiosity can save the relationship. And if you can say...

Jerry (16:06)
Yeah, and

I like what you're suggesting because it's suggesting that relationship moves through time. It's not just a snapshot of you when you first met that stays in front of your face the whole time as you grow older. It's the two of you growing through time together. So,

Kristy Gaisford (16:14)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (16:32)
The stuff that was so thrilling and together feeling at the very beginning. It's not like that wasn't real. It was real. I remember having a moment like, my gosh, my wife likes the same toothpaste as I do. That's so cool. We're like meant for each other, you know? And then years later, you're more likely to go, could you move your toothpaste to your side of the sink, please? You know?

Kristy Gaisford (16:39)
Great.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Right,

can you please put the cap on it? It's drying out the toothpaste.

Jerry (16:58)
Yeah,

it's not like the original thing wasn't amazing. It is that you're at a different point. And if you've lost interest in what it must be like to be your partner, then everything becomes much more tense roommate stuff.

Kristy Gaisford (17:23)
Mm-hmm. Right. ⁓

Jerry (17:25)
That's what

I see a lot in clients with couples work.

Kristy Gaisford (17:30)
Yeah, I agree. I was just going to give some examples of how you could be curious. you could say, do ⁓ you really see me that way? How often do you see me as being reactive? What does that feel like for you when I act that way? ⁓

Jerry (17:52)
Yep. It's vulnerable, isn't it?

Kristy Gaisford (17:55)
Yeah, it's being willing to ask for feedback that isn't positive. But that's where we can grow.

Jerry (18:01)
Yeah, it's like saying,

do I seem like in the hour after I stop work? Like, what am I like?

Kristy Gaisford (18:10)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. What's the most difficult part of being with me?

When is it most difficult to be my partner and why?

Jerry (18:26)
Yeah, what's it like to be my partner? I love these open-ended questions, but these are not for the faint of heart because people are afraid they're gonna hear something difficult, right?

Kristy Gaisford (18:37)
Yeah, and I think the key too is it's really difficult and very important to manage our own reactivity when we're getting feedback. Because otherwise, the conversations can go off the rails. But if we can go, yeah, if my partner is giving me feedback and it's not positive, I might start to feel myself get really defensive and want to puff up my chest and kind of go, well,

Jerry (18:51)
Could you say more about that? Yeah.

Kristy Gaisford (19:06)
You want to hear what you're like? You know, you think I'm hard. Let me tell you when you're hard. But if we can just go, okay, this is hard and I can feel myself getting a little reactive, but this is good. I do want to know what I'm like so that can be a better partner. And there will be a time for me later to share how my partner's hard. But right now I'm just going to take a deep breath and really try to hear this. I'm okay. I can handle it.

So it's really taking that pause. Mm-hmm. Right.

Jerry (19:36)
Yeah, I'm okay. I can handle it. That's huge.

That has to be true.

Kristy Gaisford (19:43)
And then you have to ask yourself about your partner, not what do I want them to know, but what is my partner feeling? Maybe they're feeling scared, but their fear looks like anger. So I get reactive that they're mad at me, but they're really afraid of something. Or how does my partner see this? Huh, how would they see this in a way differently than I do? Let me try to put myself in their shoes.

How, just my last one was how, how does my personality affect them?

Jerry (20:13)
This is a good time. Yeah, go ahead.

100%. And what I was going to say, this is a good time to mention our boot camps coming up because this is what kind of material we cover in the boot camps. What must it be like for your partner to deal with you? What is it like? How do you get and how can that change? Boot camps are coming up. I have one this weekend in Warwick, my hometown.

You have a bootcamp you're running September 27th, 28th in your hometown, Salt Lake City. I have one in Northampton, Massachusetts, October 11th and 12th, campus of Smith College. And we are doing one together, you and I in New York City on October 25th and 26th. So that's four glorious opportunities to come and deepen this kind of work and learn how to do exactly what

Kristy Gaisford (20:54)
Yep.

Jerry (21:17)
you just said, which is kind of modulate your responses when you don't hear something wonderful, when your partner doesn't say, I experienced you as wonderful when you come home from work. If you're not hearing that, you know. ⁓

Kristy Gaisford (21:29)
Yeah, and you know what's so beautiful

about the boot camp is you're paired up with other couples. So you can watch other people kind of going through this and then you can say, now I can see how this person feels defensive like I normally do and how that's not going to help this conversation. And then it will help you observe yourself in your own conversation next time. You can only learn certain things, I believe, through observing it in other

Jerry (21:46)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Kristy Gaisford (21:59)
people.

Jerry (22:01)
Maybe we will role play one about reactivity, about someone coming home from work and how they experience that because these are somewhat advanced skills. I think what you said is it's sort of a natural normal reaction to want to defend. And that just gets you into a loop because whose defense is most

Kristy Gaisford (22:25)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (22:29)
Right, I once people start being defensive.

curiosity stops. Curiosity is the opposite of being defensive. Defensive is like trying to explain why I did what I did. Curiosity is yikes, I wonder what that moment was like for you.

Kristy Gaisford (22:52)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jerry (22:54)
I mean, I've

become a big fan of question marks. I encourage my clients to ask questions that end with a question mark, not make a statement, you know?

Kristy Gaisford (23:05)
Yeah, and make positive assumptions. I know my partner isn't trying to hurt me on purpose. I think most of us believe that. ⁓ We both want to be loved and understood. So starting from there, I'm sure they're not trying to hurt me. So I wonder where they were coming from. And starting with an open mind and heart, hey,

I noticed when you did, I noticed you did this the other day and I started making things up about it but I thought I should just ask you. What was your experience? Why did you do it that way? Okay.

Jerry (23:51)
I think we actually could, we could illustrate this with the role play. You up for that? Yeah. Well, one of us has to, one of us has to come home after work, some involved demanding work and get around to asking the other person, what's it like for you when I come home, you know, let's, and then they're not going to like what they hear. ⁓ you want to.

Kristy Gaisford (24:16)
⁓ Okay, what one do you want to do?

Jerry (24:21)
I don't care. Which one do you want to be?

Kristy Gaisford (24:25)
I'll come home from work.

Jerry (24:27)
Okay, all right. So, Christie's home from work after a hard day being a therapist or something? Okay. Hey, how are you doing? How are things? Good to see you.

Kristy Gaisford (24:34)
Yeah, sure.

Oh yeah,

you too. I'm good. It was a long day, but I'm glad to be home. How was... yeah.

Jerry (24:46)
Yeah,

yeah, I'm good. But you know, like, I know you've had lots of pressure on you at your work and, you know, I noticed it.

Kristy Gaisford (25:00)
yeah? How do you notice it?

Jerry (25:01)
I noticed it. Yeah, this week.

Well, I mean, I think it's kind of obvious, you know, like a blind person could see it. You're very brittle and you start immediately like cleaning stuff up and ⁓ just it makes me feel like I guess I put everything in the wrong place and ⁓ just correcting me and ⁓ going to a schedule and just, it just doesn't feel...

and feel fun.

Kristy Gaisford (25:37)
So it feels like I'm kind of like coming home and being...

Jerry (25:45)
Yeah, but just a lot

of negative energy. Like I get it that you get a lot of negative energy at your job and stuff, but, ⁓ well, I don't, I don't want it here, you know.

Kristy Gaisford (25:59)
So like I feel really intense and serious and kind of critical.

Jerry (26:03)
Yeah, intense and negative

and like, man, I thought part of the day was gonna be good. nope, I thought part of the day was gonna be fun, connected, nope, nope, just like stay out of her way. If you wanna know, mean, are you asking me really what it's like?

Kristy Gaisford (26:20)
Yeah, yeah. So, ⁓

Jerry (26:22)
Okay, it's terrible. It's terrible.

Kristy Gaisford (26:26)
How often is it that you're experiencing that?

Jerry (26:28)
⁓ every day?

Kristy Gaisford (26:34)
So.

Jerry (26:34)
give or take, you know, every day.

Kristy Gaisford (26:45)
I'm managing my react to... or am I... ⁓ okay.

Jerry (26:45)
We're doing it the wrong way first. We're doing it the... Go ahead.

We're doing it the wrong way first.

Okay. So let me rewind that. much every day. It's like every day, give or take.

Kristy Gaisford (26:54)
No.

Sorry, do you want me to get mad or just... Yeah, okay. Wow, I didn't really expect to come home and just get lambasted by you about all the negative things about me. Like, I'm just trying to come home and clean up because you didn't clean up while I was at work, so now I have to do all the tasks and...

Jerry (27:10)
I'm trying to guess your face.

I exactly cleaned up when you were at work. It just wasn't your way.

Kristy Gaisford (27:31)
of like leaving piles everywhere is cleaning up. Like how did you clean up?

Jerry (27:36)
It's called organizing.

I was organizing things. I Was organizing things my way it doesn't look like your way your ways I don't know what your way is, but yeah, I don't like being at home and having this invasion of negativity boom. Yeah No

Kristy Gaisford (27:52)
Well, maybe I'm negative

because I don't feel like you're helping out and I have all the weight of working and coming home and doing all the work.

Jerry (27:59)
Wait, you

asked me what it was like, I'm telling you and now you're saying maybe I'm the problem?

You know what, let's talk about this tomorrow. I watched the Terry Real thing. He said, do that. Like, let's talk about this tomorrow. Time out, you know, talk about it tomorrow. Can we? Fine. Okay. See ya, don't wanna be ya. Okay. Okay, that was terrible. That was terrible. I think it could be done very differently.

Kristy Gaisford (28:21)
fine. ⁓

you

I do too.

Jerry (28:38)
We started doing it differently, but then we did illustrate how bad it... And I think that happens. I think conversations happen like that.

Kristy Gaisford (28:46)
⁓ yeah, I do too.

Jerry (28:49)
or let's fix it. All right, so you came home. Hey, glad to see you.

Kristy Gaisford (28:50)
Okay. ⁓

Hey, you too. How was your day?

Jerry (28:59)
Thank you for asking. ⁓ Pretty easy, actually. Pretty easy, I had a good one, yep. Got an unexpected paycheck, someone said nice stuff to me at work. How about you?

Kristy Gaisford (29:03)
yeah?

That's

nice. It was pretty long actually. ⁓ It was okay. was just really long. I'm tired.

Jerry (29:23)
Could you say more about that? just am curious what it's like. I don't really know what it's like to be a therapist and listen to what you listen to.

Kristy Gaisford (29:30)
⁓

It's just a lot of sitting first of all. So sometimes I just feel like, I just need to go on a walk and discharge some of this energy and some of it. And it's just a lot of listening. And I just feel a little bit drained tonight because I had more sessions than normal.

Jerry (29:39)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Kristy Gaisford (29:55)
It just kind of feels like I I just want to check out a little bit.

Jerry (30:02)
Yeah, there's something, I've been feeling something like that when you come home.

Kristy Gaisford (30:10)
yeah?

What does it feel like?

Jerry (30:13)
Yeah, but I don't know.

I don't know exactly what I'm looking at. It just feels for me, it feels a bit down, but I don't know. I mean, what is it like being new and coming home, listening to that stuff all day?

Kristy Gaisford (30:29)
I don't know if you've there's like so many memes on Instagram about this therapist therapy means but it's just kind of like you've already listened to your max ability. So when you come home and this isn't personal but when you come home and your family starts talking your ear off because you've been gone and they want now they want your attention. It feels like you just can't do it like you're already full and now you're supposed to sit and listen to everybody else.

Jerry (30:54)
Hmm.

Kristy Gaisford (30:58)
and you it's like your capacity is just gone and you just want to like check out you just want to scroll your phone or or go on a walk or watch TV and just not be not have to listen anymore

Jerry (31:16)
Yeah, I can understand that. I had a job like that once where I just wanted to come home, have no one talk to me. I wanted to watch the birds out back. I think I can understand. That's hard. Is there anything I could do that would make it better?

Kristy Gaisford (31:20)
But I'm.

⁓

I mean, just being understanding of that. But I mean, I also am sure it's not easy to be my partner when I'm like that. So what's it like for you?

Jerry (31:53)
No. Yep.

Well, I tried to clean up. I tried to clean up stuff even that I ordinarily wouldn't see to clean up. You know, I just tried to do it and I have a feeling like I'm doing it the wrong way. But I just want you to notice that I'm trying and ⁓ it's hard to see a partner have a hard time. I just want things to be easier, you know, for you.

⁓ nothing I can't handle, but it just makes me want to help and I can't really help with that. You know, I'll try. And sometimes it's hard to know like when to stay out of your way versus when you want to connect. So I could, anything you could do to help with that would help.

Kristy Gaisford (32:39)
Yeah, I mean, I can see that. I can see that also. mean.

It's okay for you to ask or tell me that you need to connect and I do want to be a good partner. I'm not just going to tell you to go away.

Jerry (32:56)
Yeah.

I have to get over my fear that if I ask and it's not the right time, doesn't mean you don't like the relationship. It just means it's not the right time.

Kristy Gaisford (33:09)
Yeah, but I also need to do a better job, I think, managing my schedule. So I'm glad you said something, because it's something I've been thinking about as well.

Jerry (33:13)
Yeah.

No.

Well, thank you. Thanks for talking.

Kristy Gaisford (33:24)
No, thank you.

Jerry (33:27)
Now that was hugely different.

Kristy Gaisford (33:31)
Yes it was.

Jerry (33:31)
There was no more,

you know, I mean, right?

Kristy Gaisford (33:35)
Yeah, it felt like there was assumed good intent that there was true curiosity.

⁓ a lot of space for understanding rather than defending.

Jerry (33:57)
Yeah, you know, when I think of it and hear it back, I think what a lot of my clients do instead of moving to each other with curiosity from the assumption like we're okay, we just have to know more about each other. They make it more litmus test like, are we okay? Are we really okay? You know, and, and, and then the way you answer is going to influence whether we're really okay or not. So.

Kristy Gaisford (34:18)
Mm-hmm.

Jerry (34:27)
You've got to be okay and know it and then be curious about your partner. So one thing has to follow the other, I think. It's too exhausting to make everything a litmus test of seeing if we're okay. I don't see how people do that.

Kristy Gaisford (34:42)
Yeah.

I know, I totally agree. And the other thing I think people do is they just think if I can get my partner to understand, then they won't be upset. But they spend so much time explaining instead of listening. And it doesn't, it really doesn't work.

Jerry (35:06)
Yeah, will you say more about that explaining versus listening?

Kristy Gaisford (35:11)
Like if you asked me what it was like, ⁓ and I just, or if you said you were upset that I was checked out, instead of saying, I can see how that would be hard to be my partner sometimes, because I've given so much at work that I'm not there for you. Instead, I'd say, well, you don't understand. It's because I'm sitting there all day and I'm listening to all these people, and then.

I don't ever have time for myself and then I come home and things have to get done and I have to get this done and that done and then I have to go do this and I'm just never caught up and like I'm trying to get you to understand my day in a way that never validates your experience. It's just getting you to understand mine so that you stop being upset at me. But you're only going to be less upset if you feel understood.

Jerry (36:02)
Yeah.

Kristy Gaisford (36:04)
if your experience is also validated.

Jerry (36:08)
It doesn't even work on the happy roommates model. You know, like it's, it's a very low bar. It's almost like, ⁓ what do we need to just get along in the most minimal level? And that's not, that's not intimacy.

Kristy Gaisford (36:13)
Mm-mm.

No.

Jerry (36:30)
I mean, intimacy takes you into vulnerability. You know, like, like in the first go around when you asked, like, how often do I do that or how often is it bad? And I said every day, that's like, that's ⁓ an intimate, even though it wasn't what you wanted to hear. That's an intimate ⁓ admission.

So, okay, there's a way into all this stuff and there's a way of being curious about your partner and the results are guaranteed to take you towards clarity. It may not be exactly what you wanted to end up with, but it's the truth. And when you walk towards the truth and with the truth, you can stop guessing about each other and you won't have that pasta salad experience I had, right? Yeah.

Kristy Gaisford (37:17)
Yeah.

Right. And

you will get closer if you understand through curiosity.

Jerry (37:30)
Right. Well, we're going to pursue this next time in a slightly different variation. So thank you, Christy. See you next time.

Kristy Gaisford (37:38)
Thank you. See you soon.