Can I Truly Be Fulfilled If I Never Get Married? / Pieter L. Valk

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Welcome back to head to Heart
podcast.

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I'm your host Jenny Markham.
Today I'm bringing on Peter L

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Volk who this is his second time
on the podcast.

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His first episode was in season
5 episode 10 that was called How

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to be a winsome witness to the
LGBT plus community, which was

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such a good episode.
So if any of listeners have not

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first listened that episode, you
got to add it to your bookmarks

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right now to go back and listen
to.

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And now Peter's going to be on
this for a second time.

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We're going to have a completely
different conversation.

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So take a minute, Peter, to
introduce yourself.

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Tell us a little bit about what
you do.

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You have to include a fun fact,
but not the same one as you did

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last time.
So just take it away.

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Yeah, and I'm trying to
remember, were you, did we meet

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last time just before you had
your baby?

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I think so, yeah, I think.
You're pregnant, but you did not

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were.
Not.

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Not delivered yet.
So yeah, I was time traveled way

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back when.
Yeah.

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So I, my name is Peter Volk.
I get to kind of write and speak

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and teach about LGBT plus topics
according to a biblical sexual

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ethic and vocational singleness
and intentional Christian

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community.
And I get to do that through a

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variety of different spaces.
One of those is I helped lead a

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ministry called Equip that over
the past 11 years has trained

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over 40,000 Christian leaders to
help their their families and

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their homes and their churches
become places where LGBT plus

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Christians can thrive according
to a biblical sexual ethic.

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I'm also a teacher and and
diaconate explorer in the

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Anglican Church in North
America.

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I am also a part of an
intentional Christian community

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in Nashville that is offering
family to to to Christians.

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You feel called to singleness
for for the sake of the Kingdom.

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And I'm a licensed professional
counselor who meets primarily

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with, with gay Christians,
navigating questions of faith

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and, and, and sexuality and, and
all this had all my jobs and all

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this work that I do matters to
me and has to do with kind of

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sexuality and finding belonging
in the body of Christ because I

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am a Christian and I'm gay and
I'm committed to a historic

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Christian sexual ethic, A belief
that the God's best for every

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Christian is either vocational
singleness or Christian

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marriage.
And vocational singleness

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defined as a, a lifetime
vocation of abstinent singleness

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for the sake of doing Kingdom
work with undivided attention.

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And Christian marriage, defined
as a lifetime vocation of, of

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opposite sex Christian marriage
with an openness to raising

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children for for the sake of the
Kingdom.

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So I'm, I'm personally convinced
of, of that historic Christian

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sexual ethic and, and walking
out vocational singleness

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myself.
And let's see, fun fact,

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honestly, I can't remember what
the fun fact was.

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I shared last time, not a
repeat, but I've had kind of

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Taylor Swift on on my mind at
least the past couple of of

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month or so because of the
wedding photos and because of

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the album Elise.
And so my fun fact is that I met

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Taylor Swift.
Oh my gosh, I do think that was

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the one you shared.
No, it was not.

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I think so because it is such a
funny.

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Thing.
I know, I know.

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OK, Just tell us.
Tell us anyway.

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Just tell us what it is because
it is special.

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It is special.
I met Taylor Swift at AJ Crew in

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Nashville in 2009 and she was
there with her mom.

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I was there with my mom and I
touched the small of her back

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and she kind of used in my
outfit.

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So yeah, that's my kind of.
Thing, I mean, I'm gonna be

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honest, that is one of the
funnest facts that has been

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shared on this show.
So I don't blame you for just

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sharing it again, because I
think everyone needs to know I

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mean you.
Know it's hard to top that there

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there there's a few things that
are cooler about me than that

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so.
Yeah, I, I have a friend who

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when she was I think maybe 9 or
10 years old, went to the County

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Fair and met Barack Obama before
he even ran for president.

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And that is her fun fact that
she shares it ever.

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I was like, if you met someone
famous, you just gotta go for it

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and share that one honestly
every time.

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And it's like the most well
known thing about her.

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I'm just kidding there you.
Go.

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There you go.
So, Peter, what have you been

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set free from?
Yeah, so you, you asked this

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last time when I came on the
podcast, but I felt like my, my

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answer really fit for me.
And so I'll share, you know,

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I'll share, I'll share it again,
which is, you know what?

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I feel like I've been, I've been
set free from shame,

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specifically the shame that I
carried around my, my same sex

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attractions and, and struggles
with sexuality.

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You know, for a long time I
thought that if I couldn't fix

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those things, then if I can
change my sexual orientation,

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then God didn't really love me.
But I've learned to bring my

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brokenness to Jesus daily and to
trust that his grace meets me

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there.
And so I'm grateful for that.

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I've also been free, set free
from from romance idolatry, from

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the lie that I need a romantic
or sexual relationship to be

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whole.
You know, the Gospel and the

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witness of the early church have
shown me that I can find deep,

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lasting companionship through
vocational singleness and

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through intentional Christian
community.

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So yeah, set free from shame,
set free from romance idolatry.

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Yeah, praise God.
I feel like I might be jumping

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ahead here, but it's awesome
that you can say those things.

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That you are committed.
To singleness, but then also

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your life doesn't suck you know
your life is good.

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God produces good fruit through.
You that's.

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We can take marriage and say you
don't need it to be happy and

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fulfilled.
If that is not what you're

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called to, you will be happy and
fulfilled in other ways.

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And that's how God plans our
lives.

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But I mean, I'm bringing you on
the podcast a second time,

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mostly because I subscribe to
your emails.

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And I think that every listener
should be subscribed to your

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emails because your articles on
Substack are so thoughtful and

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thought provoking.
So I've really appreciated

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reading them even this past
summer.

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And you wrote one that was
called Does the Historical

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sexual Ethic Cause Suicides?
First of all, great title

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because I was like, tell me,
does it?

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I have to read more?
But then.

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Almost like baby, but.
Exactly.

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But I mean, your article, like,
completely backed up that title

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and explained it.
So it wasn't like I was

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disappointed.
And I was like, that was a

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clickbait title.
But first of all, can you

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explain what you mean by
historic sexual ethic?

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Why would we call it historical
for anyone who doesn't know?

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Yeah, so a historic Christian
sexual ethic and kind of, I

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hinted at this earlier, but at
least I would define as an

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understanding that God's best
for Christians is either

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vocational singleness or
Christian marriage.

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Vocational singleness defined as
a lifetime calling to

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abstinence, singleness for the
sake of Kingdom work with

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undivided attention.
And Christian marriage being a

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lifetime calling between one
Christian woman and one

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Christian man with an open
openness to raising children for

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the sake of the Kingdom.
And I, I prefer to use kind of

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the word historic here because
sometimes people would say kind

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of maybe a biblical sexual
ethic.

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And it is certainly based on the
Scriptures.

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But I think some people who are
kind of convinced of a different

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sexual ethic may feel like, you
know, it's, it's kind of Fair to

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claim that it's the only
possible interpretation you

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could draw from the Scriptures
if you just read the Scriptures

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by themselves or feel like it's
a bit of a power move to claim

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that is the biblical sexual
ethic, even though I think it's

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the most likely ethic from
biblical evidence.

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But I say historic, I could
easily for myself with my

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Anglican background, say kind of
an Apostolic sexual ethic.

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And by that I mean, I think that
the way we come to know God's

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wisdom about anything is to read
the Scriptures with the historic

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church, with the consensus of
the historic church, and with

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kind of the wisdom of the
apostles and the successors of

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the apostles in the different,
particularly church traditions

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that can trace their leadership
back to to the authority of the

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apostles.
So anyway, that's a that's

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really a convoluted kind of
answer to why using the word

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historic, but yeah, that's what
we're getting at there.

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OK, that makes perfect sense.
And I first of all, just have to

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say on Substack, you have the
hashtag Make celibacy sexy

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again, which I think is
hilarious and genius.

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But as you wrote this article,
does this sexual ethic cause

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suicides?
I had to talk to you about this

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because I think many people need
to hear this conversation.

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Several people I've talked to in
my own personal life have used

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this as their main argument for
choosing a more progressive

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sexual ethic.
They say, well, people are

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killing themselves over this
issue or this teaching.

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It just doesn't produce good
fruit and we have to judge the

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fruit or this teaching has been
used in the past to abuse and

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harm people.
So obviously these are negative

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things.
But I and I'm sure many others

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would say, well, can we really
blame it on the historical

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sexual ethic?
Is that what we blame it on?

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There is a lot of evidence
supporting the idea that

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participation in any sexual
orientation changes.

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That highly increases your risk
of depression, anxiety, suicide,

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anything negative no one wants.
But is there actual evidence

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that the historic sexual ethic
declines our mental health at

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all, or does anything damaging
to people?

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Right.
So yeah, I think I think the the

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challenge here is when we
conflate kind of a pray the gay

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away theology, which I think
contradicts the scriptures and I

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think even contradicts the
historic Christian consensus as

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recently as the mid 20th
century.

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Like Francis Schaefer and
Diedrich Bonhoeffer and CS Lewis

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and Billy Graham did not believe
in a prey the gay away sexual

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ethic.
That is not the historic

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Christian sexual ethic.
And XK theology is not the

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historic Christian sexual ethic.
XK theology is actually a very

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recent development from kind of
charismatic circles that during

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the AIDS crisis kind of just by
sheer and I would say tragic

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coincidence really took off and
grew in popularity.

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But the kind of ex gay theology
pray, the gay away theology that

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has led to so much loss of faith
and suicide is a very recent

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development, is not biblical and
is not.

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Pray the Gay Away also includes
kind of the idea of conversion

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therapy, too.
Yeah.

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And so I think a a problem is
when we conflate that very

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recent conversion therapy, ex
gay theology, pray the gay way

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theology perspective with a
historic Christian sexual like

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when we conflate them together,
but they're actually separate

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things.
So yes, on the extreme of

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conversion therapy, for example,
that is definitely harmful.

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Research shows that
participating in sexual

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orientation change efforts
increases suicide attempts by

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like 92%.
You know, that is devastating.

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That is the kind of theology
that causes suicide.

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And I think it is like
spiritually and psychologically

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dangerous.
But there, there's no evidence

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that a historic Christian sexual
ethic embodied in an empathetic

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way leads to more negative
outcomes than the average

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American.
And actually the opposite, you

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know, but, but I mean, I know
we'll get to talking through all

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of that.
And so I'll leave it there.

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But no, there's no evidence in
the negative that a historic

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Christian sexual ethic causes
suicide.

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Yeah.
So could you take us a little

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deeper in that I'm saying, OK,
what is the difference between

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those two things and we can't
conflate them as the same thing?

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Yeah.
And and so maybe the best way to

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set this up is so we we know
what the results are of prey,

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the gateway theology, right?
We know about the suicidality

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that that causes.
We know about the loss of faith

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that that causes.
On the other extreme, I would

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argue there is a revisionist
sexual ethics, right?

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There's a, there's this, there's
this, there's this kind of

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cluster of sexual ethics where
where people believe that that

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God blesses a same sex marriage
in the same ways the ways that

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he blocked blesses any opposite
sex marriage.

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So that's on this revisionist
sexual ethic.

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It's kind of the other extreme
theologically on kind of the

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spectrum.
And I think that revisionist

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00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:44,920
sexual ethics can be just as
harmful as a prey the gay away

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00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,080
theology, but in a different
way.

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00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,200
OK, yeah.
So while affirming the the

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goodness of same sex sexual
relationships might feel like

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it's compassionate at first
glance, it often leads to

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00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:02,400
another kind of loss.
So in my own experience and in

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00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,480
the lives of many I've walked
with, adopting a revision of

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00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:10,440
sexual ethic frequently leads to
deconstruction and eventually

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00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:15,160
deconversion for believers that
I know for for gay believers

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00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,280
that I know that move from a
historic Christian sexual ethic

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00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:23,120
to a revisionist sexual ethic.
And I think that's a, a death of

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another kind, you know, losing
trust and hope and joy in God.

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00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:29,520
And, and that, and unfortunately
that happens along a very kind

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00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:31,920
of predictable, predictable
trajectory in some ways.

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You know, my friends who are gay
and Christian and they, they,

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00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:39,920
they first kind of convince
themselves that, you know, well,

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there's a way to read the Bible,
that the, the, the Scriptures

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00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,400
kind of provides the most
evidence for a revision of

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00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:50,120
sexual ethic.
But after a season, most of them

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00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,520
recognize what a majority of
queer theologians recognize,

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00:14:53,520 --> 00:15:00,440
which is the the God of the
Bible is probably against gay

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00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:06,520
sex, but they're convinced that
the real God must be for same

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00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,760
sex marriage, same sex sex in
the context of a of a of a

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00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:13,440
monogamous relationship.
And So what what must be is that

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00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:17,080
that that the Bible is outdated
or is not authoritative or

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binding for a modern people.
You know, it it it kind of isn't

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00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:24,880
In Sync with who God really is.
But then they get to a place

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00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,920
where if the Bible and and the
church can't tell them who God

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00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:32,200
is, but the the God that they're
following is, it's merely God as

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00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:36,840
they wish God would be.
Eventually they realize, what if

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00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:38,920
the God of my imagination is
just not even real?

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00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:41,800
Yeah.
And I will say for most of my

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00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,320
gay Christian friends who have
moved from a historic Christian

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00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:48,400
sexual ethic to a revision of
sexual ethic, with few of them

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00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:52,000
after five years still claim to
be a Christian, most of them

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00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,360
have abandoned the faith.
And so I see that on one

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00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,640
extreme, pray the gay away
theology leads to suicide.

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00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:01,760
On the other extreme, a revision
of sexual ethic leads to

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00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:05,760
spiritual death.
So what's the alternative?

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00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:07,520
Right?
Like neither of those are good

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00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:08,720
options.
What's the alternative?

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00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:13,080
Well, in the middle we have a
compassionate historic sexual

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00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:17,040
ethic, one that I think holds on
to both God's truth and God's

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00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:21,000
love and, and one that I think
calls every Christian gay or

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00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,600
straight to either vocational
singleness or Christian

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00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:25,120
marriage.
And I think, you know, research

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00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:28,560
backs that up.
Psychologists Oya Zaporosia and

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00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:30,680
Mark Yar House had done some
research around this and they

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00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:35,680
have found they studied gay
celibate Christians who who kind

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00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,920
of hold this compassionate
historic sexual ethic, who have

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00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,080
rejected A prey the gay away
theology and are and are kind of

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00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:44,440
recognizing the fact that they
will be gay for the rest of

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00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,240
their life and are out about
their story, out in their

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00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:50,720
community, out among their
friends, not trying to remove

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00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,720
their same sex attractions.
Yet they're still convinced of a

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00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,680
historic Christian sexual ethic.
They've rejected a revision of

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00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:58,640
sexual ethic as well.
And they believe that God is

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00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,440
calling into either vocational
singleness or Christian

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00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,680
marriage.
And Olia Zapirosia and Mark

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00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,240
Yarhaus studied kind of a
cluster of these gay celibate

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00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:09,760
Christians walking this out in
this way.

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00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:13,720
And they found that they scored
within the normal range of

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00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,960
mental health compared to the
average kind of American.

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00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,720
And they scored even higher in
overall life satisfaction than

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00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:23,880
the average American.
That's pretty remarkable, right?

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00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,920
Like, like, that is evidence
that says that, like, God's

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00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,440
wisdom for gay people isn't
homophobic.

300
00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,880
It doesn't lead to suicide.
It doesn't cause those like,

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00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:35,680
worst outcomes of spiritual
death or physical death.

302
00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:40,320
It is actually the least
harmful, most life giving of the

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00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:44,240
three options because I think it
flows from a God who loves gay

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00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:47,480
people and who always wants our
deepest good.

305
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,200
So yeah, I, I think if someone's
primary concern is like the

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00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,560
health of gay people, their,
their spiritual health, their

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00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:58,120
emotional health, I don't think
we need to be fooled by by

308
00:17:58,120 --> 00:18:00,560
thinking that we have to kind of
abandoned God's wisdom or

309
00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,960
abandoned God's compassion.
We can embrace both and, and

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00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,080
there's the best of both worlds
kind of in the middle of those

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00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,400
two extremes.
Yeah.

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00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:13,920
If someone knows someone who
would identify as anything that

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00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,200
is not straight and they're kind
of feeling that tension of like,

314
00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:21,640
well, how do I be compassionate
towards them but not

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00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:22,840
compromising?
Sure.

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00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:27,160
What are some examples of how
they could do that on a

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00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:32,600
practical level?
Yeah, I mean, I think I think a

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00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,240
lot of what kind of holds what
what kind of temps gay

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00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:40,080
Christians kind of to a revision
of sexual ethic isn't ultimately

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00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:42,720
the theology of a revision of
sexual ethic.

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00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:46,400
I, I don't few people I know who
who eventually adopt the

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00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,000
revision of sexual ethic, it's
not because they're really

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00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,640
deeply intellectually convinced
of it is that they're

324
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:54,840
emotionally convinced of it.
And I don't mean that as a way

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00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,720
to, to, to minimize people's
journey.

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00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,720
What I mean by that is like it,
it is loneliness that convinces

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00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,800
them, right?
It is that even as they try to

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00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,080
walk out of historic Christian
sexual ethic, many of them still

329
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,920
kind of in the closet or many of
them in kind of in, in the

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00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:12,800
context of a community that
doesn't know how to not know how

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00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,640
to support them.
Well, they are just lonely and

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00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:18,760
they can just get to a breaking
point where they say, God, this

333
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:20,320
can't possibly be your best for
me.

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00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:21,560
I've got to try something
different.

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00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:26,040
You know, now I I think that
kind of adopting a revision of

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00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,080
sexual ethic and that leading to
deconversion is even worse than

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00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,920
being lonely.
But to understand the compelling

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00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,440
logic kind of in that moment.
And so I think the best thing

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00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,520
that our churches can do to help
gay Christians, particularly gay

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00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:42,360
celibate Christians, hold on to
God's wisdom is by helping them

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00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:46,680
not be lonely.
You know, is by, is by being a,

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00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:51,600
a, a kind of steadfast friend is
by building intentional

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00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,840
Christian community in your
community, in your church and

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00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,000
inviting them into it is if
you're a, a married couple, you

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00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,440
know, adopting them as kind of
like a, a part of your extended

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00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,000
family.
I think there's a variety of

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00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,160
steps that people can take to
kind of kind of make make up the

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00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:07,880
gap, you know, ultimately the
church.

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00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,280
Should be doing that work of
cultivating intentional

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00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:12,760
Christian community for for
single Christians regardless of

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00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,080
sexual orientation.
But as the church is trying to

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00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:19,160
play catch up in the meantime, I
I think our friends, our

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00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:21,560
siblings in Christ can do some
of that for us.

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00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:32,600
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to give.
Now let's jump back into your

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00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:17,440
episode.
That's a great point because if

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00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,880
someone is saying, well I do
agree with the historical sexual

391
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,880
ethic, but what I've have been
doing isn't working.

392
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,080
I am so depressed, I am so
lonely, I am so anxious.

393
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,520
I don't feel like I have the
community I need.

394
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,520
It's like, how can you continue
in that way?

395
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,840
If you anything you.
Genuinely think and believe that

396
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,960
that is God's best for you.
Why wouldn't you be tempted to

397
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,880
make the emotional decision to
say, well, this just can't be

398
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:45,440
from God?
Yeah.

399
00:22:46,120 --> 00:22:49,440
Totally, Yeah.
If some of this good fruit that

400
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,560
we're talking about that is
produced by the historic sexual

401
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,960
ethic, it doesn't include
marriage, it doesn't include

402
00:22:55,960 --> 00:23:00,760
biological family as in
producing kids, then what is

403
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,440
some of that good fruit that can
be produced from it?

404
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,120
I know you probably have so many
examples from your own life.

405
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,720
I'll just read 1 little
paragraph you wrote on a

406
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,400
different article from Substack,
so I really liked it.

407
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,520
You wrote seven years ago.
I wasn't ready to take ownership

408
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:21,040
of my celibacy because
vocational singleness didn't

409
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,920
seem good.
I was living in the second of

410
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:28,200
what you would be, of what would
be eventually before failed,

411
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:29,720
intentional Christian
communities.

412
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,640
I hadn't yet discovered how God
would use my celibacy to build

413
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,440
his Kingdom.
I still had a fairly shallow

414
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,840
appreciation for vocational
singleness and Christian

415
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:44,000
marriage, but couldn't help but
assume that celibacy was lesser

416
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,320
as I watched everyone around me
celebrating fairy tale weddings

417
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,280
and posting idyllic honeymoon
photos.

418
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,480
So that's what you wrote.
How did you begin to change and

419
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,200
see the good fruit that came
from celibacy and vocational

420
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:02,440
singleness?
Yeah, So at least for me, you

421
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,840
know, I knew I could only
continue walking this out if it

422
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:10,040
was actually genuinely,
undeniably good for me.

423
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,920
You know, I, I knew maybe I
could, I could persist as a, as

424
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,920
a suffering servant for a
season, but I was not be able to

425
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,160
stick at this for a lifetime
unless it was like just

426
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:24,720
genuinely a good life.
And so part of that is that I

427
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:29,040
knew I needed community and I
knew I needed Kingdom purpose,

428
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,040
you know, and that's, and in
many ways, that's what Christian

429
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:33,920
married people get in the
context of their marriage,

430
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:35,560
right?
They get companionship with a

431
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,800
spouse, companionship with kids,
companionship with an extended

432
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,000
family and with other families
who are kind of in doing the

433
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,000
same work that they're doing
raising kids.

434
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,080
And then parents have the really
important Kingdom work of

435
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,600
raising their kids in the Lord
and can do other Kingdom work as

436
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:53,280
well, you know, beyond just
raising their kids.

437
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,800
But there's a lot of, there's
purpose and community that

438
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,280
married people find in those
spaces.

439
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,880
In those ways, single people
need the same thing.

440
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,080
We need purpose, we need
community.

441
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:09,120
And so I, you know, was not
satisfied with the level of

442
00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:11,720
community I was getting from a
revolving door of roommates and

443
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:13,760
revolving door of small groups
at church.

444
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,560
And so I kind of helped start an
intentional Christian community

445
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,200
that I, that I continue to live
in today.

446
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,680
I've been living with some of
the same guys for the past six

447
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,720
or seven years.
And we have prayer together

448
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,920
every morning and we do house
dinners together, you know,

449
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,720
three times a week.
And we do vacations together and

450
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:33,200
we do some of the big holidays
together.

451
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,800
We're doing Thanksgiving
together this year, for example.

452
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,240
And so I just, I knew I needed
something substantive.

453
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:45,120
I knew, I knew I needed a real,
lived in consistent community

454
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,680
and, and, and I didn't really
expect anyone else to build it

455
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:49,840
for me.
And so I went and kind of found

456
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:51,880
others who are looking for
something similar and we, we

457
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,560
built it together.
And then I also found Kingdom

458
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,640
purpose.
You know, I, I do the work I, I

459
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:03,480
do through equip and I, and I'm
a therapist and I'm a godfather.

460
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,760
And there's, there's all this,
this Kingdom work I get to be a

461
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:11,520
part of that is generative.
It is a, it, it leads to kind of

462
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,800
spiritual children.
It leads to raising up the next

463
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,480
generation in the Lord in direct
and indirect ways.

464
00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:23,560
And, and yeah, I just, I, I know
and I've heard it from parents

465
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,720
that I could not do a lot of the
Kingdom work that I'm doing

466
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,040
right now if I was busy doing
the important Kingdom work of

467
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,720
raising kids.
I see that there's a certain

468
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,840
kind of intensity and focus of
Kingdom work that I get to do

469
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,840
because I have this availability
from having a spouse and having

470
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:41,760
kids.
I think another thing that's

471
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:46,520
helped me really be content and
satisfied and grateful for what

472
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,920
I have in vocational singleness
has actually been being deeply

473
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,320
connected to some of my
Christian married friends who

474
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,000
are raising kids for the sake of
the Kingdom.

475
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:59,240
It's easy to be dissatisfied by
what I have if I'm comparing

476
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,960
what I have to maybe what I
think married people have based

477
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:04,440
on their Instagram photos, you
know?

478
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:09,920
But being connected to some real
married people, raising kids,

479
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,320
seeing what's beautiful about
that life, also seeing what's

480
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,600
hard about that, it's become
obvious to me that like, I don't

481
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,160
have it worse.
I don't have it harder.

482
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,520
You know, the grass is not
greener on the other side.

483
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,520
I have a different mix of like
challenges and benefits than

484
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:32,840
they do, you know, but but you
know, the, the, the mix of, of

485
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,920
greens and yellows and Browns on
their, the pattern of greens and

486
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,920
yellows and Browns on their side
of the fence is different than

487
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,280
the pattern of greens and
yellows and Browns on my side of

488
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,440
the fence.
But the average color is the

489
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:46,760
same.
You know, when, when, when, when

490
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,680
the pros and cons balance out.
I don't have it worse.

491
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,400
I don't have it harder, you
know, I don't think I'm getting

492
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,720
the short end of the stick.
Life on this side of heaven,

493
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,200
life before Jesus returns in a
broken world is hard for

494
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,960
everybody.
But I think my vocational

495
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:07,600
singleness is is good, you know?
I love that because there is a

496
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:13,440
deep belief that what God has
given you is what's best for you

497
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,680
and if.
Every person.

498
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,760
Deeply believes that.
Then comparison goes away.

499
00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:26,120
Then this jealousy goes away.
Then you can enter into

500
00:28:26,120 --> 00:28:29,840
friendships with other people
without this measuring stick

501
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,680
that is earthly things that will
not last forever.

502
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:34,720
Sure, sure.
Yeah.

503
00:28:36,120 --> 00:28:39,880
If you could go back to your
younger self who was wrestling

504
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,360
with questions like, is God
calling you to be single forever

505
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,280
or is it worth it?
Or is this actually going to be

506
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,480
a good life and you could tell
him anything, what would you

507
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:51,280
tell him?
So I think that would be very

508
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,960
helpful for any same sex
attracted Christians who are

509
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,680
wrestling with that right now.
Yeah, if I could talk to your

510
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:02,120
younger, my younger self, I
would say, you know, listen,

511
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:06,720
buddy, like trust me, you know,
trust me and trust the dozens of

512
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:12,000
people that I've been close to.
I think the fruit of a revision

513
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:16,120
of sexual ethic is even worse
than then sticking with God's

514
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:20,000
wisdom.
So, so hold on to a

515
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,200
compassionate, historic
Christian sexual ethic.

516
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,800
Keep on sharing your, your story
of being gay and trying to

517
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:31,400
figure all this out with your
community.

518
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,040
Keep on sharing your story with
people.

519
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,240
Come out of the closet.
You know more and more as much

520
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,880
as you can.
Figure out whether you're called

521
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,200
to vocational singleness or a
mixed orientation marriage.

522
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,320
And then embrace that and live
into it and own it.

523
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,360
You know, build the support
system that you need.

524
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,040
Find a good therapist to help
you unpack the wounds of the

525
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,880
closet.
And if you do all that, I think

526
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:58,000
you'll be surprised to find how
good life can be, You know, And

527
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:02,360
that life will never be perfect
before Jesus returns, but it can

528
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:06,120
be really good.
I think it's so interesting how

529
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:11,280
so much of what you're saying as
someone who's gay is so much of

530
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,680
what different guests that I've
had on who are straight, but

531
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,440
they're single and they're like
single longer than they expected

532
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,280
to be single.
Do you know what I'm saying?

533
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:27,480
So this teaching and advice and
wisdom is not just for the SSA

534
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,000
community, right?
Or LGBT community.

535
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,800
It's for literally everyone to
trust.

536
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,840
OK.
Does God know what is best for

537
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:38,880
me?
Yeah.

538
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,480
And that is the the question we
all have to grapple with.

539
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:45,440
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I really think that a

540
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,360
lot of what makes my life
difficult these days is not only

541
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,640
the fact that I'm gay, but the
fact that I'm called the

542
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,160
vocational singleness, you know,
and, and I'm kind of convinced

543
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,720
that God would call me to
vocational singleness even if I

544
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,600
were straight.
Like I just, I think I feel a

545
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:03,280
positive calling to it.
And yeah, there's, there's ways

546
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,640
that our churches need to be a,
do a better job with supporting

547
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,240
vocational single ones.
But but yeah, ultimately I don't

548
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:14,200
think the challenges I face are
really that much more than kind

549
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:18,160
of straight single women in my
church, for example, who would

550
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,640
prefer to be married but don't
feel like there's enough kind of

551
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:26,360
eligible the Christian.
Man bachelor's exactly.

552
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,280
Exactly.
Like my challenge is the same as

553
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:34,280
theirs, you know, and, and, and
so I'm more, no more justified

554
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:38,440
than them and saying, well, this
is unfair.

555
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,640
So I get to rewrite the rules,
you know, or I get to ignore

556
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:43,560
God's wisdom.
And listen, we can, we can

557
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:45,040
ignore God's wisdom if we want
to.

558
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,440
It's only going to hurt us in
the long term.

559
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,720
You know what I'm saying?
We're only hurting ourselves.

560
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:51,840
So.
Yeah.

561
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,360
Thank you so much for coming on
a second time and sharing your

562
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,920
wisdom and experience.
Peter is just so beneficial.

563
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:05,040
I'm excited for listeners to
hear this episode and we just

564
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,360
thank you for being faithful to
what God's called me to do,

565
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:08,320
first of all.
Yeah.

566
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:10,880
Oh, thank you for the
encouragement.

567
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:20,120
I appreciate it.
Thank you so much for listening

568
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:21,400
to this episode of Head to
Heart.

569
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,520
If you enjoyed any part of our
conversation, you'd also love to

570
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:26,480
read my sub stack.
Which would give you.

571
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,080
Access to extra resources and
training that go along.

572
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:30,920
With the topics we talk about on
the show.

573
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,600
You can find it through the link
in the show notes, which reminds

574
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,680
me if you are single or know
someone who is single.

575
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,320
I have a very.
Special podcast made just for

576
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,560
you.
My friend Danielle Hanlon and I

577
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,640
made a.
Podcast called How to Get a Guy.

578
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,360
In 10 ways which?
Teaches you how to go.

579
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,880
From single to in a healthy
romantic relationship.

580
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,240
So we cover topics.
Like overcoming fear, limiting

581
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,200
beliefs, and how to be in the
right place at the.

582
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,720
Right time.
It has everything you need to

583
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,400
learn how to confidently start
dating the right person.

584
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,400
I'm releasing a new.
Episode every other.

585
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,640
Friday for season. 6 so stay.
Tuned for the next one and

586
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:08,680
thanks for joining us.