How To Recover Your Life From Smartphone Addiction / Andrew Laubacher

1
00:00:13,850 --> 00:00:17,170
After 2 long years, this is the
official relaunch of Head to

2
00:00:17,170 --> 00:00:19,370
Heart Podcast.
I'm your host Jenny Markham.

3
00:00:19,650 --> 00:00:23,530
And to kick off season 6, we
have Andrew Lawbacher, who is

4
00:00:23,530 --> 00:00:26,650
the Executive Director of the
organization Humanality.

5
00:00:26,970 --> 00:00:30,170
So Andrew, you have done a lot,
you do a lot.

6
00:00:30,170 --> 00:00:33,050
So tell us about yourself,
anything we should know?

7
00:00:33,050 --> 00:00:35,810
And tell us a little bit about
your work at Humanality too.

8
00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:38,920
Yeah, it's great to be here with
you.

9
00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:44,160
And I am a human being.
And there's a lot of things I do

10
00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:48,000
as a human being.
I always like to start like that

11
00:00:48,480 --> 00:00:49,880
because I think it's easy to
start with.

12
00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,840
Like, here's like, yeah, like
I'm a doctor, right?

13
00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,840
Or like, I'm a musician or like,
it's easy to start with that.

14
00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:01,560
But I like to start with, I'm a
human being because my hope is

15
00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:05,120
that I can help people be more
human in the modern age.

16
00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,040
And that's really a lot of my
work with humanality.

17
00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:12,920
We're an organization that's
helping people get out of tech

18
00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:17,040
addiction in all of its forms
and use technology as a tool.

19
00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:19,240
So it's not all bad.
We're on technology right now,

20
00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:21,720
right?
So we're really trying to help

21
00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:27,880
people, you know, use technology
with intentionality and get back

22
00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:30,280
into reality.
So, you know, my work full time

23
00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:32,720
now is with this organization.
I'm still playing music.

24
00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:36,040
I've been a musician pretty much
my whole life, since I was like,

25
00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,680
12 years old and played in the
Christian music world, you know,

26
00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,640
touring for many years.
So I did that.

27
00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:47,560
And there's a bunch of other,
you know, things along the way

28
00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,280
that I've done.
I was in seminary, as you know,

29
00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,000
for people who are religious and
know what that is, you're

30
00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,280
essentially studying and praying
all day.

31
00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:01,800
And yeah, so I've done quite a
few different things.

32
00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:07,480
And as of today, like my mission
is, is kind of like, I'd say

33
00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:10,960
culminating in in this work of
helping people heal, helping

34
00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,760
people be human.
It it's combining a lot of my

35
00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:18,280
likes with, you know, philosophy
and theology and health,

36
00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:23,680
Wellness and nutrition and sleep
and, and, and really helping

37
00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:28,720
people reclaim what is being
lost in the modern age so we can

38
00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,640
get into more of what that like
looks like all the impacts of

39
00:02:31,640 --> 00:02:34,120
technology.
But yeah, that's a lot of what I

40
00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,240
do.
And Andrew, this is the question

41
00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,160
I ask every guest as they come
on.

42
00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,160
We want to know what have you
been set free from?

43
00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:44,960
I'm sure it ties in with your
work now with humanality.

44
00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,840
Yeah, gosh, a lot of things,
Yeah.

45
00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,200
So my faith has obviously been a
huge part of my life.

46
00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:57,520
And my worldview is a
Judeo-christian worldview, A

47
00:02:57,520 --> 00:02:59,720
biblical worldview of the human
person.

48
00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:06,240
And, and yeah, that involves a
fall and that involves, you

49
00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:10,760
know, the story of the Old
Testament unfolding of different

50
00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:16,200
prophets coming to Israel and
eventually, you know, and so

51
00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:20,320
many times I, I connect with
Israel a lot in the sense of

52
00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:22,920
like the, you know, God's
people, like they just always

53
00:03:22,920 --> 00:03:27,520
forgot, you know, about like
everything he told them to do,

54
00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:29,320
you know, and, and the disciples
did too.

55
00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,600
It's like they messed up so many
times.

56
00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:37,080
And yeah, I've always connected
with with like the biblical

57
00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:40,080
story in general, all right?
Like I wouldn't really be able

58
00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,080
to connect with them much if it
was just these perfect people

59
00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:46,960
that never had any mistakes and
just lived like, you know, like

60
00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,120
kings and Queens, you know,
it's, it's complete opposite in

61
00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,280
the Scriptures, right?
So I'd say, yeah, God has set me

62
00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:57,280
free from, like, worship of
myself.

63
00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:01,600
He's set me free from sin.
I've been set free from

64
00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:05,000
addiction to technologies, from
pornography to social media to

65
00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:09,520
just my phone.
I've definitely experienced

66
00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:15,560
freedom from, I'd say our
modern, you know, food system.

67
00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:22,040
I've been set free from yeah, I
think a lot of the perceptions

68
00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:27,320
of what we think like people
want us to be like I, I don't

69
00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:29,640
really care what people think
much now.

70
00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,120
I care about the people that I
care about what they think.

71
00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:34,480
But you know, being trained
online, right?

72
00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:38,480
You're, you're, you're kind of
being taught every day to have a

73
00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,000
like have a comment.
I mean your, your day-to-day is

74
00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:45,880
being formed with inputs from
what people think about you or

75
00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:47,680
what you're doing, You know, so
I'm free from that.

76
00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:49,760
I've been free from that for
like 8 years, right.

77
00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,560
So those are some things that
come to mind and I'm still

78
00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,600
growing in that freedom, right?
Like, even with what I'm doing

79
00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:02,920
now, I think the idea of like,
I'm trying to figure this all

80
00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,480
out too, right?
I'm a human being stuck in this

81
00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,600
digital age and also trying to
use the gifts of it.

82
00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:13,000
I, I do think today, 2026,
whatever today's date is, I, I

83
00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,520
think this is the best time to
be alive ever still, right.

84
00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,360
So Neil Postman said that one
before 1 begins a critique of

85
00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,240
technology, one first must must
acknowledge its success.

86
00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:29,880
So there's been unbelievable
amounts of good things that have

87
00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:35,120
come from developments and
specific technologies and, you

88
00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,400
know, a whole bunch of
trade-offs, you know, that are

89
00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:41,560
that are happening as we speak,
you know, so those are some of

90
00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:46,280
the things I'm free from.
We can't sit here and say, well,

91
00:05:46,280 --> 00:05:49,160
this entire episode is going to
be how technology has ruined

92
00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,320
society because we're doing this
through a podcast right now.

93
00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,600
It wouldn't make much sense.
We know there's an upside, but

94
00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,840
you said you have, I believe you
don't have a smartphone,

95
00:05:59,840 --> 00:06:02,680
correct?
I use the light phone as like my

96
00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:06,600
main smart device, like in the
sense of it's texting and

97
00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:08,320
calling.
That's how I communicate.

98
00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,120
When I'm on the road and
travelling, I have to use some

99
00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,640
type of smart device.
So I've used different products

100
00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:18,720
from tech lists to my iPad and
Wi-Fi to smartphone.

101
00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:22,400
Like I've used a ton of
different, you know, systems

102
00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,000
trying to figure it out.
But yeah, my phone is a light

103
00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:26,720
phone.
It's just a texting and calling

104
00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,760
device.
And you said in your answer that

105
00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,960
it's been around about 8 years
since you've been free from

106
00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,120
that.
So can you take us through the

107
00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:38,520
journey of what made you take
the leap of getting rid of a

108
00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:42,600
smartphone and how your life has
been different since then?

109
00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:45,720
Yeah, I mean, the Shorewood it
would be.

110
00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:50,000
I'm a I'm a millennial.
So I got, you know, Myspace and

111
00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:53,960
I had a flip phone in high
school and into college is when

112
00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:57,080
like all the social media
platforms came on 2010, 2007,

113
00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,680
the smartphone came out.
I think I got a smartphone in

114
00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:05,720
college.
So yeah, 2010 and was on.

115
00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,600
I mean, I went straight on to
all the platforms at the time.

116
00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,000
They were super cool, right?
Like Facebook was wild.

117
00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:15,120
Instagram, I got Snapchat in
college, which is just wild.

118
00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,800
It's like that old now.
But these are like the beginning

119
00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:22,200
stages of these things, right?
Twitter, I mean, I was on

120
00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,400
everything.
So I would say it progressively

121
00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,560
started to become more and more
detrimental in my life, right?

122
00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,600
This wasn't an overnight thing
like like we know now.

123
00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,760
So I'd say, yeah, I graduated
from Franciscan and started

124
00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,040
playing music and had a
following.

125
00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:41,600
And I'm playing all these events
now and posting all of my life

126
00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:47,560
and, you know, getting a ton of,
you know, events around the

127
00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,480
country and then internationally
and posting everything.

128
00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,280
I mean, my life online looks
pretty amazing, right?

129
00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,800
And I'm being told I got a post
on all these platforms.

130
00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:00,360
I'm growing this thing and I'm
evangelizing, right?

131
00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:04,480
But it's also like all me.
So it started to get really

132
00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:09,400
detrimental.
And you know, I think with the

133
00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,760
deployment of, you know, the
algorithms as they got more and

134
00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:18,440
more sophisticated and as the
platforms got more and more

135
00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,640
toxic with, with everything,
like we have to realize the

136
00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:25,800
Internet, no one really knows
like even what it is, you know,

137
00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,080
when we talk about the Internet,
it's like it's not something you

138
00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:31,880
can grab and touch and see,
right?

139
00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:36,960
It's this like invisible thing
that we call the World Wide Web,

140
00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:41,600
which I think is hilarious that
it's the World Wide Web.

141
00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:45,280
Like entangled in.
Right, like what do webs do, you

142
00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:47,200
know?
So there's definitely something

143
00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:51,080
interesting, you know, if the
origin stories of of the

144
00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,160
Internet in general.
And then these platforms too,

145
00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:58,600
like they they are designed, you
know, for our engagement and

146
00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:03,040
they maximize engagement at all
costs, which happens to be very

147
00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:05,880
detrimental for most humans
would come to find out.

148
00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:09,560
So yeah, I'm on everything I'm
posting everything I'm

149
00:09:09,560 --> 00:09:12,840
experiencing.
I say the omnipresence, you

150
00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:14,920
know, this idea that we're
present to all things at all

151
00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,840
times in the palm of my hand.
And we can get into more of

152
00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,480
those ideas I like to share.
But the social comparison was

153
00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,960
real.
And I said the lust was real.

154
00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:29,920
These all these platforms got
pornified like pretty quickly,

155
00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:34,440
you know, so my scroll is like
some scripture, like someone's

156
00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:36,400
cool trip.
And then just like porn, you

157
00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:41,360
know, so it was as a person of
faith, like I'm trying to be

158
00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:47,920
pure, like purity is actually a
gift that God, you know, gives

159
00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:50,280
us that we can pursue chastity
and all these things.

160
00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,440
So all these platforms were just
not leading me to that at all.

161
00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,400
Right.
So make Long story short, in

162
00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,800
2018 I decided to delete
everything and go to a flip

163
00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:02,760
phone.
And that was a horrible idea,

164
00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:04,000
right?
As a touring artist, like my

165
00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:08,880
life is, I'm making money like
from people seeing me do this

166
00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:12,720
thing.
So I did it and sure enough,

167
00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,960
like I mean, I had more events
like pop up.

168
00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:19,160
I went all over North America,
all over Canada, South America,

169
00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:22,240
Europe, Jerusalem, like those
next two years with no social

170
00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,360
media and a flip phone.
And the benefits I experienced

171
00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:30,120
were pretty radical, like, and
also a real detox withdrawal

172
00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:31,920
experience.
Now we have plenty of data now

173
00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:36,360
on this that there are real
withdrawal symptoms for people

174
00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,480
that have real addictions to
their phones, screen, social

175
00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:44,160
media, gaming, pornography.
So this isn't, this is a real

176
00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,440
thing now.
So at the time in 2018, we

177
00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,080
didn't have a lot of this data.
This is kind of a new thing I

178
00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,480
was doing, right?
I was this random guy like

179
00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:54,640
playing music, you know, at
these events with a flip phone

180
00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:58,120
and like no one, it wasn't a
cool thing to like there wasn't

181
00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,400
like a tech minimalist movement
yet, you know?

182
00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:03,600
So, yeah, my friendships got
better.

183
00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:07,440
They got smaller.
Like my, the, my group that I

184
00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,040
stayed in touch with got way
smaller and way more intimate

185
00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:15,480
and way more meaningful and
purity improved, my productivity

186
00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:17,920
improved, my attention span
improved.

187
00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:23,280
Pretty much everything got
better, like in some capacity.

188
00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:28,560
Now life's also hard, right?
So if anything, I, I didn't have

189
00:11:28,560 --> 00:11:33,160
the escape that I normally had
to escape stress or pain or

190
00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,800
loneliness, right?
So that actually became way more

191
00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:41,360
difficult because I had to like
face myself and I had to face my

192
00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,160
wounds and my demons.
And that wasn't easy.

193
00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,040
That's still not easy and I'm
still tempted to escape it in

194
00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:49,880
other ways, right?
I think the human person is just

195
00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:54,120
has an aversion, you know, to
boredom, which we can talk about

196
00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,680
later.
But so that was kind of all the

197
00:11:56,680 --> 00:12:00,680
fruit that came out of it.
And then I was just interested

198
00:12:00,680 --> 00:12:02,560
in these subjects.
And then I'm traveling around

199
00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:04,400
the world, right?
So I'm, I'm playing music in

200
00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:06,880
front of people all over the
place and I'm getting to meet

201
00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:08,760
people and, and they're sharing
their stories and their

202
00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,400
problems.
And so much of what I'm seeing

203
00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,840
is like technology related, like
especially amongst the young

204
00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,120
people.
So I kind of saw in myself the

205
00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,840
problem unfold and then amongst
the crowds I was playing in

206
00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,760
front of.
So I just got interested in

207
00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,080
like, OK, how can I really help
people heal?

208
00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:28,520
I think that's what I've been
most interested for the longest

209
00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,600
period of time.
And I for sure have ADHD, like

210
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,320
whatever that is, right?
So I like, I can get interested

211
00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,680
in some things like obsessively.
And then in a couple years I

212
00:12:38,680 --> 00:12:41,080
like move on to the next thing.
You know, I, I have a horrible

213
00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:46,720
time, you know, staying into one
thing, but that's part of the

214
00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,040
polymath brain.
And actually, I, I think a lot

215
00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:54,200
of what I experience, I'm trying
to utilize as a gift, right, and

216
00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,560
to serve people.
But so that led me down all

217
00:12:57,560 --> 00:13:00,760
these rabbit holes, right?
Of, of, you know, the health and

218
00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:04,280
Wellness space, like how
technology's impacting our sleep

219
00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:06,480
from our phones, how it's
impacting our food and our

220
00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:10,560
socialization and our
friendships and our purity and

221
00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,720
our prayer.
And so, yeah, I just got

222
00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,000
interested in a lot of these
subjects.

223
00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,640
And then COVID hit, you know, so
the world kind of shut down.

224
00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,120
And that's when I entered
seminary.

225
00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,280
So those two years in seminary,
you know, were pretty monastic.

226
00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:29,800
Like there was no community
events.

227
00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:31,840
You know, I mean, I was
essentially like praying and

228
00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,880
then inside of in a room, you
know, like studying.

229
00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,200
Really even feel like you were
missing out on a thing by going

230
00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:40,160
to seminary, because everything
is.

231
00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:42,360
Yeah, no.
Just shut down anyway.

232
00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:44,760
Totally.
And it was kind of, you know, I

233
00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,960
was already like praying about
entering and then I was like, I

234
00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:51,280
can't because I have all these
events and all my bands kind of

235
00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:52,280
relying on me for all these
events.

236
00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,960
Like I couldn't say no to this.
This is like a lot of their

237
00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,280
livelihood.
This is my livelihood.

238
00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,640
So when the shutdown happened,
it was like God kind of gave me

239
00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,440
4 to 6 months where I was just
doing like Zoom events and, you

240
00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:08,840
know, everything was dropping
and, and he's like, kind of gave

241
00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,760
me this clear path, like, hey,
now's the time, you know, so it

242
00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:14,200
was an incredible gift in a lot
of ways.

243
00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:18,560
But even during that time, you
know, I noticed also all these

244
00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:21,560
seminarians, these guys are like
all struggling with like tech.

245
00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:27,280
And I realized like, oh, I'm,
I'm not on these things.

246
00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:29,560
Like, I forgot what I was doing
was weird, you know?

247
00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:33,480
But I also started to see like,
oh, wow, people are really

248
00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:37,200
hungry for this, you know?
So once I left seminaries, when

249
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,320
I went on board with humanality,
and that's when I really took

250
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:41,320
deep dives and all the
literature and the studies and

251
00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:48,040
the science and just found a
behemoth amount of information

252
00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:52,440
describing the magnitude of the
problem on so many levels that

253
00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:54,680
everyone knows now there's a
problem.

254
00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:58,440
But I don't think most people
understand, like, the magnitude

255
00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:02,600
of the implications that are
happening, like, right now, like

256
00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:07,160
today, you know?
So yeah, that's a little bit of

257
00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:13,120
my my journey to know.
And we're so happy as common

258
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:17,360
folk to have someone who's doing
the deep dive research on all

259
00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,200
the things that are happening so
much of what we don't even

260
00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:25,040
realize and don't comprehend
will have effects of in five,

261
00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,880
1020 years.
Totally.

262
00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:32,640
But even as you were playing
music, that was your way of

263
00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:37,120
making money.
So I bet that was pretty scary

264
00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:42,000
to kind of go out and say I'm
not going to tell the masses

265
00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:46,280
through my phone anymore what
shows I'm doing and how did that

266
00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,200
impact your income and and the
band and everything?

267
00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:52,680
Yeah, like, I mean, I'm, I got
more events.

268
00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,200
I mean I never missed a month
maybe.

269
00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:59,240
Here's The thing is that in my
human brain I'm like, that

270
00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:00,840
doesn't add up.
Right.

271
00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:02,640
Yeah, well, that's where I think
it's the God part.

272
00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,160
And then also, mind you, I was
doing this like around.

273
00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:08,040
I was already playing in front
of large crowds and this is

274
00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,480
where I don't think people
understand the magnitude and

275
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:17,240
power of word of mouth.
So I really believe because I

276
00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:21,040
was doing this now for years,
whatever, 2014 to 2018, those

277
00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,400
four years of flying every week
somewhere, playing somewhere in

278
00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:26,600
the world.
I mean, one of those exhausting

279
00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,120
and not, not even human to be
doing that to my body in the 1st

280
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,840
place, but it did allow me to
play in front of enough people

281
00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,800
to where I just got calls.
I mean, we had a website.

282
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,760
So people go to website, see
what I, you know, book a date,

283
00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,000
go to be my manager.
I mean, I never missed.

284
00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:45,200
Yeah.
I mean, I was booked out one to

285
00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:49,160
two years in advance for most of
my, you know, career, you know,

286
00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,760
as it as it grew.
And then once I entered

287
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,360
seminary, I was like, I, I
actually knew, knew I didn't

288
00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:55,960
want to do the full time touring
thing.

289
00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,800
Like played with some of the
biggest artists, you know, and

290
00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,520
saw their lifestyles.
And most people look at this

291
00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,160
stuff online and they're just
see the cool flights and you

292
00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,119
playing in front of thousands of
people and the events and all

293
00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:10,680
the friends.
You know, at least in the

294
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,960
Catholic, like, I don't know,
you know what audience exactly

295
00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,319
your audience is, But in the
Catholic world, it's like the

296
00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:21,200
Catholic famous world is like
really small and like super

297
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,920
lame.
OK, So it's like, it's like not

298
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:27,880
what it looks like online, you
know what I mean?

299
00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:32,560
It's, it's not, it's hilarious
to me that people were like,

300
00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:34,240
come with me and like want my
autograph in a picture.

301
00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:35,400
You know, it's like, and I get
it.

302
00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:36,680
You're on stage and it looks
cool.

303
00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,960
And I, I remember, you know,
growing up watching Matt Maher

304
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,360
and being like, I want to, I
want to be Matt Maher, you know,

305
00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:47,840
and then come to find out that
lifestyle is like really brutal,

306
00:17:48,120 --> 00:17:51,440
you know, and actually not what
I want for my family and

307
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,960
vocation.
And, and, and The funny thing

308
00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,560
is, the more I study the, you
know, in the health and Wellness

309
00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:01,160
space, just what I was doing to
my body, you know, each month

310
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,280
with which again, there's like a
balance of like pouring your

311
00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,400
life out for others and for the
gospel.

312
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:11,040
And we're not going to live
forever and like we're all going

313
00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:12,560
to die.
And then, and then also like

314
00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,760
we're called to take care of our
temples, you know, and I would

315
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:19,480
say on the road, a lot of those
things start to stack up.

316
00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:21,600
You know, the, I mean, it's
super lonely.

317
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:26,040
Like it doesn't again, it is,
it's not this like it's a lot of

318
00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:28,640
highs and lows, right?
So you're at these events with

319
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,640
all your friends.
It's amazing and it's like

320
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:32,920
awesome.
And you feel like you're really

321
00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,040
doing something meaningful and
then you're kind of like back at

322
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:37,720
the hotel room and then up for
an early flight and then you're

323
00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,360
exhausted, you know, and then
you gotta do it again the next

324
00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:43,840
like 2 days, you know?
So anyway, I, I noticed pretty

325
00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:47,480
early on like that actually, I
knew I had to take that leap.

326
00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,720
And I mean, I've just like to
me, my life has just been

327
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,320
eliminating what ifs.
I'm like, what if I could go

328
00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:56,440
full time and be a professional
musician?

329
00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,760
Like what if I just did it?
And I did, I mean, that first

330
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,960
year I went full time, I didn't
have like every month booked,

331
00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:05,920
you know, and God just would
connect stuff.

332
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,480
And then, you know, it grew and
it grew and it grew and it grew.

333
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:10,200
And then I didn't actually need
social media.

334
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:11,600
It was just word of mouth, you
know?

335
00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,640
So yeah, could I be way bigger
at this point?

336
00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:19,640
If I would have done all that
stuff 100%, I would have

337
00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,280
probably been signed with record
labels being on way bigger

338
00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:26,800
shows, blah, blah, blah.
But I knew what I didn't.

339
00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:28,760
I just knew I didn't want that,
you know?

340
00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:30,880
Yeah, you do have to count the
cost.

341
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,720
Everything would come at a cost.
100% and I don't.

342
00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,800
And I think part of what the
digital was doing the the the

343
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:42,680
Instagrams and the Facebooks
were portraying as much as we

344
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,800
wanted.
And I wanted to show that like,

345
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:47,800
you know, we're sharing, you
know, particularly in this

346
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:49,680
religious environment, right?
It's like we're sharing the

347
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,080
gospel.
It's like there's nothing more

348
00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:57,800
important.
But what gets really, I say

349
00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:04,440
confusing slash difficult to
manage is that these algorithms

350
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:11,360
and your profiles essentially
focus entirely on yourself.

351
00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:19,400
Which for most of the scriptural
historical understanding of, you

352
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:23,400
know, pursuing holiness and, and
living, you know, a life that

353
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,600
you're being sanctified, right?
That's like the complete

354
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,880
opposite of what you want to be
doing is focusing on yourself.

355
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,280
So I just found that these
platforms really elevated the

356
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:38,000
focus on me and I just found
myself worrying about myself a

357
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:42,480
lot, right?
And so we'll get into some of

358
00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:44,640
the distinctions.
I think now of like most social

359
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,400
media platforms, some people are
on there for business, some

360
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,520
people are on there personally.
Those are very different things

361
00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,920
since there's a collective
action issue and network effect,

362
00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,880
meaning because everyone's on
all these platforms as a

363
00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,960
business, you kind of have to be
on there.

364
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:04,400
And I've been able to avoid that
for a couple years with, you

365
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,600
know, humanity.
But, you know, we're going to

366
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:09,640
have to go on some of these
platforms if this is where we

367
00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:11,880
won't want to help people be
free, right?

368
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,560
So personally, I don't have any
social media platforms.

369
00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,680
I, I don't ever plan on going
back to any of those as a

370
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:20,360
business, we'll probably have to
have some.

371
00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:22,680
It's, it's like your original
newspaper.

372
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:24,720
This is how you're finding what
people are doing.

373
00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:29,920
But the reality of posting your
every moment of your every day

374
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,440
and posting your best day and
watching everyone else post the

375
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,320
best day and then like the
amount of minds that you

376
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:43,320
interact with in one day, it's
toxic to the human psychological

377
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:47,080
processes of personality
formation.

378
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,080
Like, I don't think people are
really thinking about this.

379
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:53,080
I've been thinking about this a
lot and I haven't read much into

380
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,720
it yet.
But you're prior to the

381
00:21:55,720 --> 00:22:00,240
smartphone and to our, you know,
interacting with so many minds,

382
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,920
disembodied minds online.
Our our personalities were

383
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:10,240
formed with people in person in
a community like personality

384
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,680
formation was determined on who
you interacted with in your

385
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,160
day-to-day.
Now you're day-to-day for your

386
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,080
average young person and even
adult.

387
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,760
But I think more about the kids
in the situation.

388
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,680
They are interacting with
hundreds, maybe thousands of

389
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:29,600
minds of persons every week that
are literally forming their

390
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,320
personalities.
You know, so you're getting

391
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:36,840
human beings that are being
shaped from this really amazing,

392
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:39,560
you know, gift from God of our
temperaments and our

393
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:44,080
personalities and our likings.
And like, that's a that's a gift

394
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,400
from God.
But we have no idea what this is

395
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:51,120
doing to personality formation.
Also, we have enough information

396
00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:53,960
where we know that this is
actually like very detrimental

397
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,280
to our relationships.
Like we're in a loneliness

398
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,400
epidemic, we're in a mental
health crisis, we're in an

399
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,320
obesity epidemic, we're in a
chronic disease epidemic.

400
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:08,000
I mean, when you stack them all,
kind of all the epidemics, a lot

401
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,520
of them are correlated to our
technologies.

402
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,800
Yeah.
And I think that part of your

403
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,480
story was the thing that was
most inspiring to me because it

404
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:25,760
sounded like you took your
music, which is ministry in some

405
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:30,520
form and then said, well, I'm
going to trust God that he calls

406
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,560
me to that.
He's going to provide for the

407
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:35,720
rest of it.
If you get off this platform

408
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:43,440
that is kind of forming, you
are, it's like persona control.

409
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,800
You want to control how you are
being perceived.

410
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,440
So you stepped away from that
and said, I'm going to just

411
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:55,520
trust God to provide.
And then somehow through word of

412
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,240
mouth and and other ways God did
provide.

413
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:02,360
And that was what was inspiring
to me for this podcast because

414
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,400
the two years that I haven't
been making this podcast, the

415
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:11,400
main reason that I stopped was
because while making the podcast

416
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:16,160
and that ministry was so much
fun and wonderful, the promotion

417
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,960
on social media was life
draining and took up so much

418
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,600
time and used up my creativity.
And I was like, I didn't get

419
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:28,080
into this to promote myself.
And that's what I am kind of

420
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,680
forced to do when I use social
media.

421
00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:33,280
But you do.
There's nothing.

422
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,400
Bad about.
You're not a cave fan.

423
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:37,680
Right, right.
Yeah.

424
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:39,720
And I'm going, Yeah.
And I go on podcasts and I'm on

425
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,080
these things.
And it's, you know, it's

426
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,400
something that I think
everyone's trying to navigate.

427
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,120
I think more in particular to
your point, like obviously now

428
00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:52,160
there's teams of people that run
businesses, social media, right?

429
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:53,880
So like the person leading
doesn't have to do it.

430
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:58,280
There's plenty of people in
different businesses doing that,

431
00:24:58,280 --> 00:24:59,680
right?
So you don't have to do that now

432
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,280
for your average person that you
know during your stoplight,

433
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:08,160
during your grocery store
shopping, you know, going to the

434
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,000
bathroom, you know when you wake
up, when you go to sleep.

435
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:17,880
Like the overwhelm of
information is really clearly

436
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:24,080
affecting multiple levels of
memory, cognition, attention,

437
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,880
things that really matter
actually for our success and

438
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:31,760
flourishing in life.
So one, humans have a horrible

439
00:25:32,360 --> 00:25:36,800
time using what's called this
precautionary principle that

440
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,480
before and mostly scientists
trying to use this principle,

441
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,200
but it's before you create
something you try and look at

442
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,600
OK, what are the possible
trade-offs like where the costs

443
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,160
going to be?
Now, no one gave us, and I share

444
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,280
this a lot like no one gave us
any informed consent, giving us

445
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:50,720
a smartphone of what it's going
to do to us.

446
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,080
It was just all of a sudden all
the tools in one place and it

447
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,280
was mind blowingly amazing.
And we're like just yes, right.

448
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:02,200
It's like, you know, trillions
and trillions of dollars, you

449
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:07,640
know, from these, you know,
companies and they're making a

450
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,240
product that is incredibly
convenient.

451
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:14,000
It, it's just for human beings.
Convenience is not always a good

452
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,640
thing.
So for example, McDonald's is

453
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,680
incredibly convenient.
I mean, you can drive up to

454
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,960
McDonald's and you can get a
Mick Flurry, Mick, Double Mick,

455
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:28,360
whatever they're called.
And that's like very convenient.

456
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:33,400
If you eat that every day, you
will die, you know, like from

457
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,640
disease.
So convenience not so helpful

458
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,480
there.
Also the convenience of

459
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,480
transportation, right?
I, I'm interested in technology

460
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:43,920
as a whole.
So I'm like the cars, the

461
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,080
technology, the forks of
technology, light bulbs are

462
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,120
technology.
They all have impacts and

463
00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:53,080
trade-offs and particularly, you
know, this precautionary

464
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:54,920
principle when applied to the
phone.

465
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,680
Yeah, we did not think about any
of these outcomes, right?

466
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:02,600
That there would be so much
trade off to just even, for

467
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:03,960
example, the text message,
right?

468
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,040
Most people are so
overwhelmingly bombarded by

469
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,560
messages.
Your instant accessibility from

470
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:16,200
anyone on your, you know, phone
book while being amazing when

471
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,080
you need really important things
or want to share something with

472
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,200
someone you love or, you know,
you're on the family group text

473
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:26,000
like that's been amazing.
At the same time, most people

474
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,920
are so overwhelmed with how much
input we're getting just from

475
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:35,000
the text message, right?
So these are examples of, you

476
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,320
know, the trade-offs we didn't
particularly think through.

477
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,320
And now it, you know, in our
work with humanity, like we give

478
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,280
people the frameworks and
systems to use text message well

479
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,560
and to use these things well.
And that creates, you know, you

480
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:52,440
have to create real boundaries
around the stuff.

481
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:54,720
Like people know I suck at
texting.

482
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:56,800
I mean, all friends text me
like, Hey, are you dead?

483
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,480
You know, because I didn't
respond like in three days or

484
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,800
something, you know, so it does
demand a real shift for how

485
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:05,960
people interact with you and how
you interact with them.

486
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,960
But there there's ways to, I
would say get out of the

487
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,000
trade-offs of these
technologies.

488
00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:17,360
We're just at a point in society
and a point in in reality where

489
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:23,800
you can't not make a decision
with these technologies.

490
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,680
Like if you don't make a
substantial change with how

491
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,600
you're interacting with these
technologies and the outside

492
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:36,560
world, you are going to be
addicted to everything.

493
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,120
So there's just no, there's no
middle ground.

494
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,680
It's like you either make the
decision to create boundaries

495
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,080
and to create intentionality or
be used by the machine.

496
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,920
I mean, there's trillions of
dollars behind these platforms

497
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:52,120
that are, you know, purposely
addicting you.

498
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:56,400
They know exactly your like how
long you look, look at each feed

499
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,600
that I mean, they're tracking
your eyes from your smartphone.

500
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:00,880
They know exactly your emotions.
This was Eric Schmidt.

501
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,240
He was one of the Google, I
think, president, he said.

502
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:09,640
Quote We know where you've been,
we know where you're going, and

503
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,160
we pretty much know what you're
gonna do next.

504
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,480
Oh gosh, that's terrifying.
Totally.

505
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,760
It's terrifying.
So these platforms are know us

506
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:24,200
so well and are exploiting us so
well that you can't hear this

507
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:29,280
and not make a change, right?
Like your future and your

508
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,840
future, your family and your
kids, like it all matters.

509
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,080
We're taking a brief break to
tell you about our sponsor for

510
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,200
today's episode.
This sponsor is near and dear to

511
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,360
my heart.
Many people in the country of

512
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,120
Jordan are facing grief, stress,
loneliness, emotional

513
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,360
challenges, and they have very
limited access to mental health

514
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,760
support.
While professional services are

515
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,000
very important, they're often
difficult to access or just out

516
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,240
of reach for many people.
So that's why Cindy on Care

517
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,720
Network believes communities can
play a super important role in

518
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,880
healing.
They're developing training

519
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,760
programs, workshops, support
groups and care appointments

520
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,480
that equip everyday people with
the practical tools they need to

521
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,320
support themselves and those
around them emotionally,

522
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,240
spiritually, relationally and
mentally.

523
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,040
Research from community based
care programs around the world

524
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,480
has shown that when people are
equipped with basic support

525
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,160
skills and connected to caring
relationships, their entire

526
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,120
emotional well-being improves
and then the whole communities

527
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,040
become more resilient.
Healing doesn't just happen in

528
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,680
offices, it also happens around
kitchen tables and friendships

529
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:43,680
with families and within
communities.

530
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,920
That's why Sydney on Care
Network's mission is to make

531
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,600
practical care skills become
more accessible so that people

532
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,920
can build stronger communities
where they have support, tools

533
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,320
and relationships they need to
face any life challenges

534
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,080
altogether.
And Head to Heart is partnering

535
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,520
with Cindy on Care Network, with
half of all financial proceeds

536
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,560
given to further the work that
is being done in Jordan.

537
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,600
The other half of the proceeds
are given to fund Head to Heart

538
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:11,840
Podcast.
If you want to partner with us

539
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,840
and support this work, you can
click the link in the show notes

540
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,520
to give.
Now let's jump back into your

541
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:27,480
episode.
How do you currently steward the

542
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,520
technology that's in your life
in a godly way?

543
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,640
Yes, this has taken like years
of experimenting, right?

544
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,600
So I went from smartphone to
flip phone.

545
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,960
My flip phones kept breaking
because they're horrible in

546
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,720
2018-2019, 2020.
So I think I went back to a

547
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,600
smartphone and then I got my
light phone.

548
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,600
So I've mostly been using the
light phone and the wise Phone 2

549
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,000
by techless.
So the devices for me were huge

550
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,120
in itself.
And now I do this kind of hybrid

551
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:04,560
model with like my, my light
phone is my phone and then I

552
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,000
use, I call it a supercomputer.
It's a mobile supercomputer.

553
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,600
I take my mobile supercomputer
like on the road when I need it,

554
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,640
right for my lifts and for my
airport runs and for my hotel

555
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,040
bookings and blah, blah, blah.
So that's been like a

556
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:22,360
progression, but I would say,
you know, even once I got off of

557
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,560
social media, I found ways to
distract myself with my phone.

558
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,560
So, you know, then I was like, I
was just watching The Weather

559
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,200
Channel way too much, you know,
or, you know, started just

560
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:35,840
YouTube.
Then I was like YouTube and

561
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:40,240
podcasts, you know.
So yeah, I, I love information,

562
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:41,640
right.
So when you're online, like

563
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,840
looking at your YouTube feed, I,
I think YouTube could be even be

564
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,280
probably one of the most
detrimental, not necessarily the

565
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,360
content, even though you can go
down rabbit holes that are

566
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,840
incredibly toxic, just the
availability of all the

567
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,000
information.
Like we're human beings that are

568
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,840
social creatures.
We need social interaction.

569
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,280
So when you see endless
conversations of really

570
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:05,920
interesting topics, this just
creates this dopamine loop that

571
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,800
I have still like have to make
sure I'm listening intentionally

572
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,360
to an episode of something I
want to learn and something I'm

573
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,400
going to implement.
So I went, you know, years where

574
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,120
then I was just like too many
podcasts, too many YouTube

575
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,880
videos and they were mostly
really good information.

576
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:26,200
Now this is where it gets really
like difficult for a lot of

577
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:30,280
people to hear this, but I think
you can over consume good

578
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,640
information.
And I think particularly for

579
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,520
those in the religious world,
you can over consume religious

580
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,360
content.
So what I mean by that is like

581
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:43,280
you, you can substitute
listening to say whoever your

582
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:48,360
favorite Christian, Catholic,
you know, author, thinker or

583
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,720
theologian is, you can be
spending more time with them

584
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,800
because just today, today
there's millions of content,

585
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,760
piece of content, millions of
tweets and millions of podcasts

586
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,240
that were just downloaded today.
So if you just listened to all

587
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,080
the information that was
downloaded today, it would

588
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,040
exceed your lifetime.
OK, So like just today, there's

589
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:13,760
enough information for you to
like not be able to consume all

590
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,360
of it, right?
So, so there's some progressions

591
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,760
there, right?
It's like, OK, I was addicted to

592
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:21,639
all the social media platforms,
get rid of those.

593
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,679
Then it was like YouTube and
podcasts, OK, I got to start

594
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,480
creating some systems where I'm
just not listening to the next

595
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,639
thing.
Every car ride, every time I get

596
00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:33,440
home, every time I'm on, you
know, I, I had to just keep

597
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:34,960
creating more and more
boundaries.

598
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,639
So today, you know, I work my
job.

599
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,920
What's funny enough is like I'm
trying to help people get out of

600
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:43,719
tech addiction and use
technology as a tool.

601
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,560
I'm pretty much on a computer or
a laptop for my job, right?

602
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,400
So I'm on Zoom calls, I'm on
these podcasts, I'm on meetings,

603
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,320
I'm, you know, also flying
places and, and, and speaking at

604
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,600
different events.
And so my life, you know, uses

605
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:02,400
technology every day.
I just found some really basic

606
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:10,120
fundamentals of my habits with
my technology began to be

607
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:11,720
incredibly helpful.
So here's a few things people

608
00:35:11,720 --> 00:35:16,000
can do like today, right you if
you're going to stick with the

609
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,080
smartphone, I don't think you
need to go to a light phone.

610
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:19,640
I don't think everyone needs to
go to a dumb phone.

611
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:21,520
You can use a smartphone really
intentionally.

612
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,640
First thing, best thing you can
do is just go grayscale.

613
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,480
It's going to decrease your
looks to your device by 47%.

614
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:33,280
I did that on my phone two years
ago and it just makes it so

615
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,280
uninteresting to look at.
It's wonderful.

616
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:38,880
Yeah, and it's like you can
change it back on and off when

617
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,840
you need to for, you know,
pictures you want to see and

618
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:43,200
stuff like that.
Doesn't have to be in it all the

619
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,840
time, but for the most part, you
know, creating.

620
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:48,880
So when students go through,
when anyone can go through a

621
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:50,880
digital detox, go to
humanality.org.

622
00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:54,000
Anyone can go through this 12
week course detox.

623
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,600
It gives you all the information
you need to actually create

624
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:02,440
lasting change with this device
and technology in your life.

625
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,120
And it could be helpful for
families.

626
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,120
I made this to be applicable to
human beings.

627
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,840
So if you're a human being in
2026, this is going to help you

628
00:36:11,240 --> 00:36:13,360
tremendously.
If you're like, man, I'm tired

629
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,960
of my phone addiction, It's
going to help you with a ton of

630
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,160
other things in your life too.
But some of the basic things we

631
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,760
help students go through with
their digital plan of life is

632
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,240
again, starting with the device.
If you're going to stick with

633
00:36:24,240 --> 00:36:25,960
the smartphone, here's how to
dummify it.

634
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,040
There's some simple ways to do
that.

635
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,760
One basic way is the grayscale.
The other one is just put, if

636
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,040
you're going to stay on social
media platforms because like,

637
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:35,960
you know, we can't really tell
adults.

638
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,280
It's, it's like, it's like
alcohol, right?

639
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:39,680
Alcohol is a poison.
OK.

640
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,960
There's no benefit to alcohol.
Now, do people drink alcohol?

641
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:44,840
Do I have an occasional drink of
alcohol?

642
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,080
Yes, because it's like enjoyable
and it's fun and it's social.

643
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:53,120
So I see social media as a drug.
I see it as a carcinogenic drug.

644
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:55,800
So we have to like, think of our
mindset like that.

645
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,560
Like how often do you want to
expose yourself to that drug?

646
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,720
Because that's what it is.
It's just not, you're just not

647
00:37:01,720 --> 00:37:04,240
ingesting it, but it's affecting
your psychology, it's affecting

648
00:37:04,240 --> 00:37:06,280
your neurological wiring, it's
affecting your attention.

649
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,280
It's actually affecting your
Physiology.

650
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,560
You just don't ingest it.
So when you think about it in

651
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,160
that way, you really.
OK, so if you're going to keep

652
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,720
using all these platforms, put
them on your computer, put them

653
00:37:18,720 --> 00:37:21,680
on desktop or your laptop.
So at least the separation from

654
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:23,560
your device gives you some
friction.

655
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,040
Now, this is like an Atomic
Habits idea from James Clear's

656
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,400
book, and just creating some
friction like that.

657
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,640
So the ease and the convenience
of everything you've ever want

658
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,960
on your iPhone is what makes it
so difficult to say no to.

659
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,920
So go grayscale, demofy the
smartphone, put all of your

660
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,280
entertainment apps, all your
gambling, you know.

661
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,040
All your other addictions on all
your other.

662
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,000
Addictions, your Candy Crush.
I don't even know if people play

663
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:53,880
anymore, but I know that all
these games are like super

664
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,120
addicting.
Put those on a laptop, right?

665
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,800
Just that friction will
radically help your life.

666
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,160
Another great thing to do with
the notifications is just put on

667
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,400
do not disturb throughout the
day and just the people you care

668
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,160
about, your family, your spouse,
your work, whatever, like

669
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:12,360
specifically you need to hear,
let those in, like let those

670
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,640
come in, you know, throughout
the day, just decreasing

671
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,280
notifications.
So I would just turn off all

672
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,480
notifications.
OK, so if you're looking at your

673
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,600
phone and you're getting like
6000 pings a day, you know, like

674
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:25,960
you are not going to be able to
concentrate.

675
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:31,920
So your device matters grace
scale, take the toxic apps off,

676
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,560
you know, turn off
notifications, go to do not

677
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,520
disturb and just start creating
distance from your day.

678
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,120
So in our digital plan of life,
we have a digital distance

679
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,720
tracker.
So each day you decide how much

680
00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:46,800
time you want to start spending
away from your device.

681
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:48,480
So we recommend 10 minutes to
start.

682
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:52,880
Every day you're going to spend
10 minutes away from the device.

683
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:54,480
It's not going to be even close
to your body.

684
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,600
It's going to be in another
room, and you're just going to

685
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,960
start to feel what it's like to
not have the thing on you.

686
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:02,720
So to me, those are really
great.

687
00:39:02,720 --> 00:39:07,360
If you just did those things,
you would experience radical

688
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,360
improvements, I would say in
your mental health, in your

689
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,440
sleep, in your relationships, in
your productivity.

690
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,360
Like just starting there.
And then if people are

691
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,840
interested in the deep dive and
really going through our detox,

692
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,800
like our whole course walks you
through, you know, the depth of

693
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,200
what you can create.
But I'd say for your average

694
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:30,160
person, if you just started
there, you would feel amazing.

695
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:33,560
Yes, I think that's a great
place to start.

696
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:37,120
I'll make sure to link all the
humanality links into the show

697
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:39,800
notes so that listeners have
easy access to those.

698
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,440
And yeah, I know we're running
out of time.

699
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,520
So Andrew, I want to thank you
so much for sharing your wisdom

700
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,720
and your research with us.
And we hope that this episode

701
00:39:49,720 --> 00:39:52,880
will really inspire listeners to
just separate.

702
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:57,120
Separate yourself from your
devices so that you have time to

703
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:01,800
think about what you are losing
when you are on those devices.

704
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,640
Yeah, yeah.
It's all about what you're

705
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,320
adding into your life.
Like, think about all the

706
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:11,880
amazing things you're going to
get back.

707
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,200
Like this isn't a subtraction.
This is actually an addition

708
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,320
equation.
You're adding more meaningful

709
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,600
experiences.
Joey Odom said he runs his

710
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,840
company essentially they create
like phone boxes, you know, that

711
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,600
you can just put your phone in
and it and it and it gameifies

712
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:26,880
it.
So you get points the longer

713
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:28,240
it's in the phone box kind of
thing.

714
00:40:28,240 --> 00:40:30,240
I mean, everyone's trying to
figure out something, right?

715
00:40:30,240 --> 00:40:33,840
But his his quote, I think is
really powerful is, you know,

716
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:37,040
essentially this is the first
generation kind of millennials

717
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,440
and younger, I'd say that are
going to have more memories of

718
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:42,120
other people's lives in their
own.

719
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,120
So when you think about your
scroll, each day is a memory of

720
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,520
someone else's day.
Doesn't matter if it's the news

721
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,840
or YouTube or whatever.
I want to encourage people to

722
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:55,720
make more memories with
themselves and the people around

723
00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:00,280
you and and just live it like
you don't have to post it.

724
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,080
You don't have to take a picture
of everything.

725
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,600
You know, now many people have
many different.

726
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:09,480
I noticed there is a human
proclivity to memorialize

727
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,320
events.
There's nothing bad about that.

728
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,680
But there is a ton of data that
points to actually the more

729
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,440
pictures you take in your day
and especially for important

730
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:23,960
experiences, the less memory
consolidation you actually have

731
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:26,720
of the experience.
So the more you can just start

732
00:41:26,720 --> 00:41:30,600
living these moments with people
that matter because on your

733
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:32,960
deathbed, here's the thing.
You're not going to care about

734
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,040
your TikTok following.
You're not going to care about

735
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:37,840
if you listen to another
podcast.

736
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:41,000
You're not going to care about
if you listen, you know, or saw

737
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:42,840
what happened in the news and
what happened with the

738
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,680
president.
Like at the end of your life, if

739
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,520
you're going to care about the
people around you and the people

740
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,760
that you loved and the people
that you wish you would have

741
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,640
spent more time with.
So like, if we can just start to

742
00:41:55,240 --> 00:41:57,680
find other ways to be human,
right?

743
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,160
Where, as Neil Postman said,
we're amusing ourselves to

744
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,120
death, right?
If there's other ways we can

745
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,480
start to invest that time now,
that could be learning an

746
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:07,880
instrument, that could be
writing a play, that could be

747
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,760
reading a book, that could be
learning a new recipe, that

748
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:14,160
could be working out.
That could be a million other

749
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:18,360
cool things we can do that that
doesn't evolve, involve, you

750
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:22,080
know, us needing to portray our
lives through an algorithm and

751
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:26,320
get likes for it, right?
And I think for each person,

752
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,960
they have to kind of decide, OK,
like, how much of my own life do

753
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,680
I want to get back?
And then also again, the

754
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:34,080
distinctions are for your
business.

755
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:36,880
If your business is on these
platforms, this is advertising,

756
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:38,560
I get it.
We're going to probably have to

757
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,520
do it.
Like, let let that be that.

758
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:44,080
Let the business do that from
there.

759
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:49,000
But don't let that come into
like your time after work,

760
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,920
right?
Or or your prayer time.

761
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,600
Like we've partnered with Halo.
We have a detox on Halo.

762
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,040
I love Halo, They're amazing.
I would prefer that people would

763
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:02,640
pray, you know, pray more
without a device, without any

764
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,240
technology, like get to know
yourself, get to know God.

765
00:43:06,240 --> 00:43:09,920
And it's amazing actually, what
happens on my car rides where, I

766
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,320
mean, I've spent years of doing
this five and a half hour car

767
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:16,760
ride, just silence, just
thinking and praying, you know,

768
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,040
And yeah, it's like
uncomfortable and you get kind

769
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:21,920
of bored.
And that, man, I've had the

770
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:27,280
coolest ideas come out of
extended times of boredom, you

771
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:29,280
know, And it's not something I
do every time.

772
00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:33,280
I'll call some friends, I'll
talk to people, you know, But

773
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:38,600
just the more we can start to
have a human experience again, I

774
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,000
think the more resilient we're
going to be.

775
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:47,320
And we're going to be happier,
like we're going to be happier,

776
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,760
healthier human beings, right?
So I'd encourage people right

777
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:55,680
now, if you're listening to this
podcast, like go make one change

778
00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:00,760
today of all the things we
shared about that would maybe

779
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:03,480
move the needle a little bit in
the right direction, right?

780
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:05,040
You don't have to go to a light,
you don't have to, you don't

781
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:06,960
have to delete everything.
I mean, you can, I'd highly

782
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:08,680
encourage it.
It's a great time.

783
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,160
Go to a flip phone, go to like
do it, just try it.

784
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:16,480
But if that's not something you
can do at the moment, then I

785
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:18,840
would just start small with one
thing, right?

786
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:24,600
And that one thing is going to
have a ripple effect into your

787
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:29,280
future and into your present.
If you can't make the big jump

788
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,360
right now, then just make a tiny
step.

789
00:44:32,720 --> 00:44:34,480
Yeah.
Thank you so much for being the

790
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,480
guest today, Andrew.
Thanks for having me, Jenny

791
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:46,280
Couple.
Thank you so much for listening

792
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:47,560
to this episode of Head to
Heart.

793
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,680
If you enjoyed any part of our
conversation, you'd also love to

794
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,440
read my sub Stack, which would
give you access to extra

795
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,360
resources and training that go
along with the topics we talk

796
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:58,800
about on the show.
You can find it through the link

797
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,640
in the show notes.
Which reminds me, if you are

798
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:05,240
single or know someone who is
single, I have a very special

799
00:45:05,240 --> 00:45:08,720
podcast made just for you.
My friend Danielle Hanlon and I

800
00:45:08,720 --> 00:45:12,720
made a podcast called How to Get
a Guy in 10 Ways, which teaches

801
00:45:12,720 --> 00:45:17,040
you how to go from single to in
a healthy romantic relationship.

802
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,400
So we cover topics like
overcoming fear, limiting

803
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,960
beliefs, and how to be in the
right place at the right time.

804
00:45:23,240 --> 00:45:26,520
It has everything you need to
learn how to confidently start

805
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:30,000
dating the right person.
I'm releasing a new episode

806
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,680
every other Friday for Season 6,
so stay tuned for the next one

807
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:34,880
and thanks for joining us.