Starting a Pop-Up Restaurant with Sam Fore of Tuk Tuk Sri Lankan Bites

Chris Spear: 0:00

On today's show, I have Chef Sam Fore, the Sri Lankan American chef and recipe developer who's known for her wildly popular Tuk Tuk Sri Lankan Bites pop ups. She was recently honored by the James Beard Foundation awards as a semifinalist for best chef in the southeast. On today's show, you'll find out how this former marketer made the jump into the pop up restaurant world. Hi, I'm Chris spear, and this is Chefs Without Restaurants. The show where I speak with culinary entrepreneurs and people working in the food and beverage industry outside of a traditional restaurant setting. In 2016, after hosting a number of traditional Sri Lankan brunches at her place, Sam decided it was time to move these gatherings from her dining room, and so the pop up was born. But these events aren't limited to Lexington, Kentucky where she lives. Sam has been traveling and collaborating with chefs across the country. And the show we talked about pop up logistics and collaborations. Sam details how she ended up with her own Spicewalla spice blend, and she shares some info about her upcoming brick and mortar restaurant. In the past few years she has been on the cover of Food and Wine Magazine been named one of plate magazine chef's to watch and is joined the cast of Christopher Kimball's milk Street. With everything going on, it would be so easy to get burnt out. We talked about taking the time to care for yourself and to say no to some things, to only doing the things you really want to do. And speaking of collaborations, pop ups and things you want to do. I'm gonna be doing a collaborative dinner with Chef Matt Collins on Saturday, March 11. In Bradley Beach, New Jersey. We'll be doing six courses plus some snacks. We're still finalizing the menu, but I think it's gonna be pretty rad. We currently have the Eventbrite created. So the link will be in the show notes. And for Chefs Without Restaurants, listeners and community members, if you use discount code CWRINNJ you save 10%. I hope to see some of you there. So let's get on with the show. Thanks so much for listening, and have a great week. Hey, Sam, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for coming on.

Sam Fore: 2:19

I figured that I had just a little bit of eligibility left. And so I'm going for it. You know, it's it's the Chefs Without Restaurants. It's the 40 under 40. Like, I'm going for all of it this year. Let's go.

Chris Spear: 2:30

Yes, yes. No, I've had probably at least a dozen people who've been on the show who've gone on to open brick and mortars. And you know, I love that if that's something that works for you. Yeah, go nuts. It just like was never my path. Although, for a brief moment, I think when I was 18 years old, and in culinary school, it's like, oh, yeah, I want to have this restaurant and it's gonna be amazing. And then you get out in the real world. And you're like, maybe not so much.

Unknown: 2:52

I'm still my heels are still kind of dug in, even though I signed the lease. So it's gonna be a funny experiment for me.

Chris Spear: 2:58

I'll definitely be following through social media to kind of see how this goes.

Unknown: 3:02

Oh, yeah. I mean, for seven years, I've dodged a brick and mortar. And so it's everyone is just like, wait a minute why now? Why here? Why?

Chris Spear: 3:10

Yeah, we're gonna definitely get in that. And I kind of want to jump to the end, because, or I guess, maybe the president, if you will, because you were just nominated for a James Beard Award for best chef in the southeast, which is huge. So congratulations.

Unknown: 3:23

Thank you. I'm still kind of gobsmacked by that. It's wild.

Chris Spear: 3:28

I think that's amazing. Because you know, you don't have a traditional restaurant. I don't know how many times is there even a history of them nominating like pop up chef. So for me is someone who doesn't work in restaurants and has a lot of friends who do pop ups and stuff. I think there's amazing that they're looking beyond the realm of a traditional brick and mortar restaurant for their chefs.

Unknown: 3:47

I mean, the change of the model, and the change of dining out has really forced them to kind of change how they look at things. I think it's a matter of adjusting with the times you're seeing the chefs that have had established restaurants for years. abandon it and go the pop up route. Why?

Chris Spear: 4:04

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, we've talked a lot about what is a chef on the show for the past few years. And you know, what a chef, your cooking food you're serving people like that's a chef who, you know,

Unknown: 4:16

was always commanding a team. Like I understood why some of the chefs here would have gripes because like, I didn't, I mean, I've never held a kitchen job in a proper working restaurant. Aside from my popups. This is absurd. Like this. This whole journey has just been absurd. But I've learned by virtue of not having a place to land. It's really forced me to become a problem solver. Between sourcing techniques, equipment. People tend to sniff at pop up chefs and be like, Oh, it's not that bad. You know, it can't be that hard. Everyone's doing everything for you. And it's not like that at all. It is a Honestly, the detent was probably the hardest physical labor that I'd done, ever. And, you know, I mucked out stalls in high school for Christ's sakes. But it's, it's just different. You know, it's, it really forces you to think it forces you to work with different teams that forces you to learn different languages to make sure you can communicate with all the different teams, you know.

Chris Spear: 5:26

Yeah, you're quite often a one man show or a very small team, you know, restaurant chefs have chef to cuisines and sous chefs, and you probably have a front of the house manager and a GM and, you know, marketing people and I hired a marketing person. Did you have that? How'd that work out for you? Oh, my

Unknown: 5:44

God, no, it's I just hired them. Like it's been I started the business and 2016 I have been essentially a one woman show aside from a few helping hands here and there for line cooks, for seven years. And so, for me to have anybody working with me, it's been very huge adjustment. Even in the week,

Chris Spear: 6:07

we talk a lot about, like, Who's the first person you hire? Or what's your best hire? And marketing definitely comes into that a lot of times when we're talking, you know, when I'm having conversations with people, because that's a huge piece

Unknown: 6:18

of it. Well, that's where my background is.

Chris Spear: 6:22

Right? You were doing marketing for restaurants. So you know, so that was that hard for you to hire someone? Yeah.

Unknown: 6:29

I did, I did. My two first hire so now took took is officially a team of five, with two that are kind of in and out advisory sorts. But I have two actual humans on my team now. And the first person I hired was an air traffic controller, essentially. Because as a lot of your Chefs Without Restaurants now it's when you're planning popups, and you're doing events, outside of your normal comfort zone outside of your town, when you don't know what's ahead. You kind of need to remember what deliverable goes where, especially if you're also in charge of, you know, somehow promoting yourself to keep yourself relevant.

Chris Spear: 7:06

I'm doing my first collaborative pop up that's out of state ever next month, and it's the first pop up I've done since pre pandemic, like I was starting to get them rolling in late 2019, early 2020. And then, you know, as change screeched, so next month, I'm doing one with Chef Matt Collins, who was one of my previous guests, I'm going up to New Jersey, and we're doing you know, like a six, seven course pop up dinner there with a couple seedings. And it's the first time I've ever gone out of state. It's I've done them here locally in like the DC area where I live. So for me like taking the show on the road, this is a big step. For me.

Unknown: 7:41

That's amazing. I'm gonna give you a pro tip, Google any sort of Specialty Produce or anything that you need that isn't common. And try to find stores within five miles of the restaurant just have that list of places handy call ahead. Because when those sourcing problems happen, they're usually unexpected.

Chris Spear: 7:59

Last minute surprises. Nobody likes those.

Unknown: 8:01

I mean, I feel like the pop up chef is the guru of the last second surprise. I mean, I've set my eyebrows on fire during tense service before.

Chris Spear: 8:11

Well, that's, that sounds like kind of a nightmare.

Unknown: 8:14

I mean, you know, I my eyebrows grew back, but like it was not fun. Was somebody had set it up? I was because when you're a pop up shop, you don't have actual physical infrastructure, right? And so I operated service off of two sternum burners, and one of those big griddles like those big cast iron griddle is about 36 inches wide. Oh, yeah, I know those Well, yeah. And so we'd pile that into the back of my truck. And then you know, set up and somebody had set up one of those little butane burners right next to that griddle. So at some point during service, there was a big fireball moment. And of course, I was the one who was on the griddle at that point. So I survived, we went on, I mean, service only hiccup for like a 45 second span, because when you have a line of people, it's not like even if they see what's happening, they're gonna understand that

Chris Spear: 9:03

I learned in culinary school, when you have a Rando full of stuff and you're adding alcohol and you want to turn it towards the fire to the glaze. You don't turn that towards you, you turn that away from you. And there's a very good reason for that. So I had a whole eyebrow eyelash situation a couple of decades ago,

Unknown: 9:20

the outdoor tent temporary, it has its rites of passage.

Chris Spear: 9:26

But these are the fun things that don't necessarily always happen when you work in a restaurant. So no,

Unknown: 9:31

whenever I pulled someone to work in the tent with me from a restaurant, they would walk in thinking it would be very easy. And there's something different about cooking in 38 degree weather and serving hot food than you know being able to do so in a hot kitchen. That's why are you cranking this heat all the way up. There's no way you should and I'm like it's 38 degrees outside once that temperature drops, it's gonna take a long time for it to come back up.

Chris Spear: 9:57

Yeah, I mean, I have trouble just controlling Whew, temps in a house like doing the personal chef thing where I'm in, you know, someone's home and there's not like heat lamps. I'm trying to put up 12 dinners all at one time and keep them all hot and I'm serving by myself.

Unknown: 10:09

How do you warm the plate? When you only have one oven that your food is in?

Chris Spear: 10:14

Portable? microwaves have worked well for me. Ooh, good to

Unknown: 10:17

know. I was thinking toaster oven. I

Chris Spear: 10:20

want to then go back a little bit to how all this started. How I know you were doing brunches at home. And that was kind of the evolution into the pop up. But why brunches? And how did that start? Because that's not a thing I think most people do is like, Hey, I'm just gonna start having brunches in my home.

Unknown: 10:37

Yeah, I thought it should be though.

Chris Spear: 10:40

I love brunch and who doesn't but to turn that into business.

Unknown: 10:45

I would invite maybe eight or nine people over and we'd have lunch together. I mean, my my mother when we were growing up, we would all get together with like a whole group of Sri Lankans for the weekend. A couple would drive up from Atlanta, a couple would drive down from Raleigh, everyone would meet in the Charlotte area. And you know, they do a whole dinner singsong big thing. And then the next morning, someone would host brunch before everyone left. And so brunch was always like an amalgamation of really, really good curries and like celebratory sort of foods. So carry about the coconut milk rice was super common Curie but it's also super duper delicious. It is simple to make it is so easy and so good. That if you want to whip up something to impress some new buddies that you've made, it's a pretty easy option. The problem is, is when nine people turns into like 40 When you don't have any notice.

Chris Spear: 11:38

How does something like that happen?

Unknown: 11:40

I Yeah, it was like the worst kept secret in town, I guess. I mean, we would I mean, people would call Oh, I heard so and so was coming over. So I thought I dropped by her. Oh, I heard there was like somebody showed up with a bottle of champagne and said, Oh, hey, I heard there was good food here. And that the host like champagne. And I was like, Well, yes, but what but it's like after that I was like there's no more? Absolutely no more. Like I can't it was a turning into a massive invasion of personal space. But like, for me the easiest way to share with people and to get to know somebody is over a meal. And we moved to Kentucky after 11 years in Boston. And you know, it was it was starting all over again. And in your late 20s, early 30s. That's That's not easy.

Chris Spear: 12:27

So is that where you were born as Boston?

Unknown: 12:29

No, I was born in Kentucky raised in North Carolina. I spent 11 years in Boston came back to Kentucky about 10 years ago.

Chris Spear: 12:36

Oh, I I grew up in Marlborough mass. So miles west of Boston. Yeah. So I was there until I was in my early 20s. Nice. So your food is a good combination of Sri Lankan, but also really rooted in your Southern cooking. Is that right? Like how you would describe your food?

Unknown: 12:54

Yeah, I mean, a lot of people like the F word. I don't love the word fusion because it's, it's really it's not a fusing. It's, I'm using these flavors that I love in foods that I love. You know, it's it's just, it's me. It's a lot of things that I think, Oh, hey, this would be a good idea. And then somehow, if it turns out to be a really good idea, it ends up on the menu. That's how the fried chicken was born. That's how their ribs were born. I didn't know how to make ribs until 10 days before my first pop up and they were on my menu. Why would you do that? I was I'm stupid. No, it turned out perfectly. Like I just I have been beyond even in the most terrible of situations. I have been beyond blessed. I had like a situation where I'd ordered produce for an event six weeks ahead of time. Everyone else's arrived, but mine and they're like, oh, no, just wait. It'll get here. It'll get here. And I went and negotiated with like the hotel chef for the produce I needed because by the time that everything arrived, it was the day after the

Chris Spear: 13:55

event. Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah.

Unknown: 14:00

I'm pretty good at thinking on my feet. But now the ribs are just like my friend was like, I love your pork curry recipe. I bet that would be good on ribs. And I'm like, Huh. And so I did a deep dive on cooking ribs between like, old cookbooks and the internet. And I'm like, I think I could do this. And so I did a couple tests batches of like, Yeah, this is pretty good and put it on the menu. And that became my best selling item for the first few years.

Chris Spear: 14:20

And you could spend years like working on ribs recipes. So that's quite impressive.

Unknown: 14:26

Thank you. It's also sheer dumb luck. Sometimes it's knowing the flavor combinations that work with the proteins of what I know how to cook really well. And applying that to different sort of vehicles to give people a gateway has been a really fun sort of challenge.

Chris Spear: 14:44

Did you have any formal training before you started all this? I know you worked in marketing with restaurants but had you ever knocked any work now?

Unknown: 14:52

Nowhere? i The only exposure that the restaurant world would have had my food my first first official client for the business I had biodynamic, it was a little bear with jetpack on its back. And I couldn't find a job to save my life out of grad school because I am an actual trained marketer. Like I have a fancy degree and certifications and all that crap. Really funny that I ended up in food. But here we are. So I was working with Chef Jamie Bissonnette of COPPA and Toro, and little donkey and Ken oranger, as well for their restaurant COPPA. And there was an article in the newspaper that they hated their website so I decided to work with them based on that gave them a great you know, we had a great working relationship. So in that first year, as I was getting to know them, I said, Okay, let me bring over some food that I made with my mom, cuz you like Asian flavors, like you're really psyched about going to Thailand. I'm sure you'll be psyched about this, like here, try this. This is coconut sambol. This is like the preeminent Sri Lankan condiment. And I tell you the night I gave a little like bag of Polson ball to Jamie which is it's like an orange flight like fluffy condiment situation. He was carrying it around and like putting it on food and stuff. And I was like, Okay, this is odd. You know, I kind of took that away. I'm like, Alright, next time I make, you know, lump price, which is a rice rice packet wrapped in a banana leaf. Or I make crab curry. Maybe I'll take some for them just because you know, and when I cook with when I was cooking with my mom, and it was we were cooking massive batches because I wasn't going home to North Carolina that much. And so I bring them up and they would take a bite and then they would finish the whole thing. And so I was just like, Huh. And I guess they thought I could cut pretty well. So I took a sabbatical for a year from doing their sites and they gave me the biggest boost. Because Jamie's the one who called chef Edward Lee and said, Hey, she can cook you should have her through. It was just sheer dumb hospitality.

Chris Spear: 16:58

But you have to have something to back it up. So you know, you had some you had some innate cooking ability there. Yeah,

Unknown: 17:04

I mean, there is there isn't a neat cooking ability, I'm sure because I can jump. I mean, I was making boxed mac and cheese tastes a bit better because I'd get annoyed. So let's, um, but I'm not, you know, I'm not this massively trained person. It's just I have a very strong rooting in these flavors that I grew up with from watching them get executed for years and years and years, and also being privy to that as I was allowed to be in the kitchen.

Chris Spear: 17:32

And Jamie is one of my favorite chefs, when I go to Boston like those are usually the first places I go to like, I can still almost taste here like on Copa like the pigtail. And I think there was, I think there's some kind of like mostarda at the time with it or something. And it was like, You always got like a mouthful of bones. But you didn't mind it was the kind of place I felt like you could just like spit the bones on the plate and nobody was

Unknown: 17:54

and still is. So Jamie, Jamie is honestly I don't think he knows this. But he's like one of those people who taught me how to eat. It's, uh, cuz I didn't know, you know, I grew up in a Sri Lankan household. We have rice and curries and stuff like that, but we weren't going into the Word of world of like, oh full are like really intricately prepared things. It's not like that was a part of, you know, my sort of worldview. When I got to Boston, it's Boston, I expanded my worldview exponentially. But like, I told Jamie that with COPPA, I was like, I will try anything like because I don't know how to eat what I'm going to eat, but you can't tell me until afterwards. So the pigtail was one of the first things that he gave me. And that's when I realized I like pig's tail and then I probably shouldn't turn my nose up at things.

Chris Spear: 18:41

That's a good gateway. Because you know, it's it tastes like regular pork. It's just a little Bonior.

Unknown: 18:46

Oh, gosh, but the texture of the actual meat is incredible, isn't it? It is. A lot of people talk about how negative and cruel and whatnot. The chef road has been in the past. But when my introduction into it is folks like Jamie opening doors for me. It's very different of a mindset that I have on this industry. I think my my pathway was a lot kinder than a lot of people's. Even though it was wild and crazy and full of its own challenges. There were a lot of kindnesses along the way and his have been a blessing and a half.

Chris Spear: 19:23

There are some really solid awesome people in the industry that I'm glad to know there's a lot of not great people, I've had some not fantastic experiences. So you especially remember the good ones even more.

Unknown: 19:35

Exactly. It's you know, it's I may minority woman who has no formal training, who hasn't held a position and a kitchen, who is basically cooking, what I know how to cook and how I know how to cook it. And somehow I'm able to succeed by being myself here. And it's because I get to stand on the shoulders of a lot of very, very good people.

Chris Spear: 20:01

Well, everything I've heard about your food and cooking is making me want to come down there saying, Hey,

Unknown: 20:07

you should we should you should do a pop up in Lexington,

Chris Spear: 20:11

that would be amazing. I've never even been down there. And it's on my list of places. So

Unknown: 20:16

people wonder why live here, people want her in Kentucky in Lexington itself. Kentucky has our share of problems, we have our share of you know, terrible things. But we also have this very beautiful web of people here that is just so beyond hospitable. And it really kind of changes the vibe of this town. Sometimes I have a moment where like, you know, you have the same growing pains that you would anywhere else, but there's so much smaller, and comparison and there's so much more perspective because of what you're able to do down here. versus in a larger city.

Chris Spear: 20:54

Yeah, every time I get the itch to move somewhere, I think like, am I going there? Because I want to go or am I trying to get away from something? And if I'm trying to get away from something, can I just kind of like shift either my perspective or how I'm living or something and make this work?

Unknown: 21:07

I mean, it's it's gonna be the way it is with as crazy as everything is right now. I mean, it's different sort of it again, it feels like a terrible idea to open a restaurant when everyone says that there's a recession looming. And every piece of advice is like run, but it also it just feels like the right time. And I can't ignore that.

Chris Spear: 21:29

How did you know it was the right time to start with the popups? I mean, I know you were kind of outgrowing where you were. But that's a big move. And I guess the follow up is like, what was your first event,

Unknown: 21:41

I didn't think the popups would succeed, I thought I legitimately thought that I would maybe do one or two. And then I would have that bug out of me. And everything would go back to the way it was. And the first event that we did was at a bar called our caveum. We hooked up to their back patio, we brought the tent all the way up to like their back fence gate and took the back fence gate down. So we had like a little barricade with our table. And we had a tiny little 100 square foot kitchen set up back there with deep fryers and warmers and like a strange Hansung setup and all sorts of craziness. And I thought it was for like a college reunion event for Senator Collins here. And I was the guaranteed food for that college event. That college event was only $70 and my total revenue. The people that showed up that day. I mean, they sold me out in three and a half hours. Like it, I walked in having spent like maybe 570 something dollars on everything from the licensing to the equipment to the food cost of the tables to this to that to the other. And I walked out of the bar was 750. And I was just floored. And I was like all right, this is a fluke, this isn't gonna happen again. I'm like little setup in the middle of the day, we'll do some brunch food with Bloody Marys, that'll be fine. And then maybe a couple people show up, you guys can pat me on the head, say I did a good job. Say I did it. And we'll move on. And that sold out. And it sounds like and then we're also going to be doing another one I was like, Well, I guess I have to do another one. And by like the fourth or fifth one. I was like, okay, you know, we we've sold out pretty consistently. And it doesn't show any signs of letting up. And so the tent became this like little service industry bastion and Lexington people would come up for service from eight to midnight on Friday nights and, and we would coincide with a night market. So we would get some walking traffic. And I always thought that a drunk crowd was a captive audience for anybody serving food. And so it just it seemed like a good idea. And I hated the website company I was working with at the time, I was selling luxury pillowcases, right? As I was quoting, like this guy, he wanted to call me like after hours about these $450 pillowcases asking me why they aren't selling. And I'm like, Dude, if you have to ask me you're not looking hard enough. Like, it's just common sense. I went from making $95 an hour to making $10 an hour. Very quickly when I switched to food. I my last job in tech was doing consulting for this huge firm. And then I went to a prep kitchen to cut up vegetables for weekly meals to get experience in a kitchen.

Chris Spear: 24:36

That's really hard. I mean, that's what I talked to people about all the time, especially when they're thinking of doing this right.

Unknown: 24:42

I was set to do okay, but I hated it. absolutely hated it. I just I couldn't get like I enjoyed my restaurant clients because it felt good to give the keys back to the people that needed them. I think a lot of web businesses really kind of got predatory in that they would make you get retainers And so that was just like their guarantee of income for the rest of the year, whether they were going to actually do anything or not. And I always thought that that was a racket. And I always think that people should have the keys to their own car. So like, that felt good, I could do that. And I could build a business off of that, but I didn't like it. And I was just good at it.

Chris Spear: 25:20

Now, were you always doing tents, like bringing a tent and setting up that instead, as opposed to like going indoors somewhere and having a preexisting kitchen because a lot of people do pop pop ups and like bars and breweries and places that have kitchens, or they rent out Airbnbs and it's not so heavy on the setup side.

Unknown: 25:38

It was a tense out of an Acura TSX for the first six months. And then I had one kitchen pop up at the wine studio at 610 Magnolia because Edward Lee was kind enough to invite me. And that went super well. And then it was back to the tent for another year.

Chris Spear: 25:57

I've never had to do the tent setup. And that's kind of like a daunting process.

Unknown: 26:03

I've done it in the snow. I've done it in the rain, have done it on people who are coming from restaurant jobs where you know, the chef bros think that they've got the end all be all because I got a book from Noma. It's like they're just talking down on the food that they're eating in front of your face and other

Chris Spear: 26:19

chef bros. I don't know about oh my god.

Unknown: 26:24

I feel like Lexington might have like the dying call the last few chef roast.

Chris Spear: 26:28

So no, no, definitely we're about 20 years

Unknown: 26:31

behind the times. And a lot of ways. I think that's why it's so charming here.

Chris Spear: 26:36

Can you give me like a brief overview of Sri Lankan cuisine? For those who don't know, I think I've only eaten it a handful of times to begin with. I know. You know, in my like experience, it seems kind of similar to a lot of Indian food I've had, but I know there's so many differences. So what are some of the cornerstones

Unknown: 26:54

if you think if you think of the flavors and the spices that you see in South Indian cuisine, and you think of like the sweetness of coconut and like the sour factors of Thai cuisine, and you bring those factors into one cuisine, it's kind of the easiest way to frame Sri Lankan cuisine for people who have had the other two. It's a lot of I mean, it's a very seafood heavy cuisine, it's a Island boat, you know, they cook pretty much everything pretty darn well, it's a lot of tempering. It's a lot of spices. It's a lot of very old school technique, in that it's basically just how you do it. There's nothing super refined about it. It's just building and developing flavor after flavor after flavor.

Chris Spear: 27:35

Have you seen a lot of Sri Lankan restaurants around like I don't even see them a lot and um, you know, outside of like DC, and I wouldn't say that there's a lot around here

Unknown: 27:46

in 2016, I think I was the 10th working operation in the country after the rest had been, like open and closed over time. I knew some folks who had like early ones in California and stuff where the diaspora is you'll find Sri Lankan food, whether it's Atlanta, DC, Southern California, Houston, New York, you'll you'll be able to find it. But it's not very common. And it's because a lot of us were encouraged to go the professional route. And and we are the a lot of the folks that ended up coming over in the 70s were, you know, doctors and their families. And they came over to start over here because the US had a spate of medical visas. And so as the kids of that first you know, immigrant generation are growing up, it was okay, you should become a doctor, you should become a successful lawyer, you should become a dentist, engineer, something a hugely professional. And cooking really isn't in that list. So it you know, it was a bit of a shock for a lot of people. You know, that first pop up that I did with Edward Lee, his whole staff really welcomed me and taught me a lot. And if it weren't for that, I don't think I would be still doing this.

Chris Spear: 28:57

Well, I can't imagine having a cooler person to do a pop up with.

Unknown: 29:03

He's pretty great about giving a given a leg up to the local folks. It's it's kind of amazing. He doesn't have to do it, but he does.

Chris Spear: 29:10

That's really cool. I've never been down there, but I've had some of his food at other events eating dinner up in Richmond, Virginia. And that was just amazing.

Unknown: 29:18

You know, this is this is the pro tip that you're gonna get from me is that I think his current executive chef at 610 Magnolia is making some of the most exciting food I've had in a while.

Chris Spear: 29:27

Do you ever feel burned out? Yes. Yeah.

Unknown: 29:31

2021 about did me. I think I spent from February until pretty much the 31st of December on the road. A lot of people asked why aren't you doing stuff locally? The demand for it wasn't here. The restaurants were struggling to survive here. How can I come in and basically cannibalize the people who have hosted and supported me over the years. I couldn't do that. But if somebody was struggling in another state, or if somebody wanted to figure out a way to bring events back I was open to that. And so I mean, I hit the pavement really hard and 2021 because I lost everything and 2020 within a day, all of the bookings. And I was working in relief, which was fun, but like I had worked so hard to put all of that year together, that it was just devastating to me. Because it was it started to feel like that watershed moment where I thought that I might be kind of taken seriously. And it'd be, you know, a bit more fun of an adventure. And then everything stopped. So I felt in 2021, that I had to go super hard. And that about did man, I mean, it's just, it was brutal. And so I went into 2022. And I spent maybe 10%, less on the road last year, I built in a lot of recovery time, because I knew how hard the year before was on me between filming and pop ups and familial responsibilities and everything. And the other big differences is that my folks move closer to me. So that knocked out a lot of driving. But you realize the value of your time and the value of your downtime and the value of actually maintaining yourself, because you know, I don't really take the sick days, because I take good care of myself. I'm making sure that I'm resting and making sure that I'm sleeping and making sure that when I get somewhere, I have at least a bit of time to decompress and kind of get my mind right. And now that I have an air traffic controller, this is going to become a little bit better, because I don't feel like I'm remembering everything all at once. Because as an independent business owner, if you forget something sometimes that can spell doom for your business. So you know, it's the stress of that that is now being divvied up among more than just me, that's really helping along, it's mitigating that stress, it's going and getting a foot rub. I'm a big advocate of going and getting a 15 minute hand massage. Because stuffs heavy after a while, if you're prepping for 150 people or 300 people for an event, guess what, your hands are gonna be sore, you don't take care of your hands. Like if you believe in the product that you're putting out. And you really actually want to say something with the food that you're making. Why aren't you taking care of yourself? Because if you're like, I mean, it's pretty safe for me to say that there's nobody else doing Sri Lankan and Southern cuisine. So if I'm the only one and I burn out, what else is there? The train stops?

Chris Spear: 32:32

But I know speaking for myself, it's hard when you start to get a little notoriety or publicity that like you want to grab it. All right, like I'm sure like us, you know, it's like, you've been on the cover of food and wine and plate magazine and you do podcasts. So I'm sure you know, for me, it's like someone's like, Hey, you want to come on this podcast? Sure. Hey, do you want to like write an article for us? Absolutely. I

Unknown: 32:51

do say no. Now, I do say no.

Chris Spear: 32:53

How do you decide what you say no to and what you decide to say yes to?

Unknown: 32:59

I mean, right now, it's a people will ask for pretty much anything for free nowadays, because of where they are. And it's about saying no to that, if it's not something that really resonates with you. There are things that I do like the Emma's torch weeks, the the weeks that I do with the refugee program there, I don't charge anything for that. That's for me. That's for me to do to feel better about whatever I'm leaving behind. You know what I mean? But like, I'm not going to go out of my way to write an article for a free frying pan.

Chris Spear: 33:35

Yeah, I've done that though.

Unknown: 33:36

Yeah, I mean, I've done it. I've done it before. And

Chris Spear: 33:39

what I found with those people then is then it's like you're having another boss. I don't know if this ever happened to you. Like someone reaches out Instagram Hey, do you want these free? Whatever of admits, and you're like, Sure. And they come and then I've got a busy week and they're DMing you every day, like when are you going to write this review and do the post? It's like, Are you shitting me like you gave me like $4 oven mitts like I'm appreciative. But like my moneymaker, like my job comes first. And it's gonna be a few days before I get this out.

Unknown: 34:04

You gotta you gotta change that over. It's gotta be you come before your job, though. Yeah, yeah, I know that we're all so super passionate about this. But burnout is so real. I have seen some of the most talented chefs want to stop cooking. I've seen people who've gone through the rigmarole of going through hell with investors. Like the things that I've gotten to see from being able to travel for the last couple of years. It really emphasizes that you do have to take care of yourself. It's it's huge. I mean, there's no way that any of this would have still been going. If I didn't have you know, therapy and an occasional massage or like you know, something for myself a manicure it used to just be a monthly manicure. It can start with something that small.

Chris Spear: 34:52

For me, it's like taking a break and doing something not in food as much as I love food because it can be all consuming especially when you're free. Your what your TV time is like watching cooking shows or like going to a restaurant or reading a cookbook. It's like I need to kind of shift modes and just say like, I'm just gonna go to a concert or I'm gonna go for a hike. And I find that that that clears my head. What? What do you find inspiring in that way? Are there things outside of the food world that really kind of grounds you and give you inspiration nerd.

Unknown: 35:23

I am a total nerd. So occasionally I will delve into like the video games and whatnot. Yeah, it's, I am a big RPG nerd. So I'll dive into that for a day or two. And I'll usually be good. But that's also why I can't move away from Kentucky because I'm like, 10 minutes away from this beautiful country drive horses running in the fields and everything. And it's just like, if I were in a major city, it would take me forever to do that. And here, it's just like, Okay, I feel crappy. I'm like, Alright, you're gonna go drive out to that country store and get ice cream? Because life is too short.

Chris Spear: 35:56

Do you think you'll be there for a while?

Unknown: 35:57

Yeah, I do. I don't think I'm going anywhere, anytime soon.

Chris Spear: 36:01

So let's kind of talk about this brick and mortar plan that you have, do you have stuff you can share?

Unknown: 36:08

Me think it's I've signed a lease, the current tenant is not out yet. So I can't say where it is. But I have kind of gotten everything lined up, we are doing a counter service shop, kind of like what we were doing with Taunt people will walk up, order something and leave. And that was great. Everything worked. I'm not going to do a sit down restaurant, I don't want to. I mean, I think if you followed me for but you definitely know that I have the tendency to mouth off. And I don't feel like making other people accountable for my mouth. So I don't want to have to have front of house service that has to deal with any blowback from me. But I do want people to have somewhere where they can go and get a really solid fried chicken sandwich that doesn't taste like anything they've ever had before.

Chris Spear: 36:58

That's just what I love right now. And I've said it over and over. Like, I'm, like not interested in fine dining, per se, whatever that is. And I don't even want to get into the whole depth of fine dining. Like I was saying, it's like, well, before the whole Noma shit like, I would rather have a delicious fried chicken sandwich or a taco or something, you know, something like that I don't need the formal service just give me delicious food,

Unknown: 37:19

there's room for all of it, there really is it's just the pretension that goes with it can be a little bit overwhelming. But I've seen some really just stunningly beautifully executed fine dining moments in the last couple of years, that like, I know that it's not going to die, because there's got to be somewhere for these people to shine. There's got to be, but incorporating techniques into you know, easier sorts of things that make the whole food world more approachable is only going to help us in the long run. Being able to connect to cultures through everything is going to help us in the long run. It's what's going to transform the flavors that are in fine dining. You know, it's it's all a huge relationship. It's not like you know, everybody can eat caviar pearls every single day of the week,

Chris Spear: 38:06

what's your menu going to look like? Or do you have any idea like how many items you want to have,

Unknown: 38:12

so I'm kind of rebranding into the tooktook snack shop. I'm gonna sell snacks, and do little sandwiches, maybe a couple of rice bowls, because those were huge. When we did the tent, people absolutely loved it. And they wanted to get like a different sort of seasonal curry with it or whatnot. But pretty standard fried chicken sandwiches, my meatballs will be on the menu, I'm going to be doing lentil fritters back, like from the tough days. And a lot of those items that people have really grown to love here and have been missing. But then also, every once in a while I can mix it up and throw in a special or two. It's just I really want this to run as a quick service sort of counter thing. So everybody can be treated well and you know, go home at the end of the day leaving their work there. I also have plans for a little PDR in there, that's not going to be super available to the general public where I can do 12 to 16 person dinners.

Chris Spear: 39:09

Oh, that sounds fun. Now do you envision still doing pop ups and traveling for them?

Unknown: 39:15

So I'm essentially booked out through October anyways. And I'm trying to build this with I mean, it's really helped to building the spice recipes with spice Wallah. Because that's all the stuff like those spice funds, I would take all this stuff to make those with me everywhere I did a pop up. And so that's made my life significantly simpler because that's my signature blend. And I know how it does consistently on the road anywhere, like all the variables have kind of been tested out in other kitchens. So I know what's gonna work and I know how to execute it. So it can be done on mass. And I'm going to really focus on on volume here and then keep that back room for highly curated events. So I can have a little bit more fun

Chris Spear: 40:00

A little more fun is always good. Yeah. And that's, this is

Unknown: 40:03

the kind of place that'll be able to run with a kitchen manager and perhaps the CDC, you know, and I really want to give both that role and that sort of responsibility to somebody who wants to grow into to running it.

Chris Spear: 40:16

So you don't feel like you're going to have to be there every day and be the face of this place.

Unknown: 40:21

Look, I know I'm gonna have to be the face of it. I know I am. But at the same time, at the same time, it's been very handy and very useful to have my face out there. It has put me into rooms that I did not imagine that I ever would have a place in. And I cannot all of a sudden say, Alright, I got what I wanted out of this. Let's go. It's like no, I'm not quite to what I want. Yet. There's there's still another destination for me in the culinary world. This isn't this isn't the end all. This is a step.

Chris Spear: 40:51

And you had mentioned spice Wallah. That's like super cool. How did you manage to have them produce, you know, a line of your spices? Because I think that's something that a lot of people want to know is like, I want a spice blend with them. How did that come about? Can you talk about that?

Unknown: 41:06

Yeah, absolutely. Um, I had been cooking with marijuana Ronnie through brown on the south. And so when he launched spice wala, like we were all kind of using the spices about they're very good. And so a lot of the spice companies that have been sending me stuff have been sending me like just pure your product. And so I just talked to him, I was like, Look, I have problem. I'm doing these pop ups here. They're in everywhere. And the other time, I had really hard trouble sourcing this one thing for my fried chicken, can we just do all the spices, so I can produce it there and then maybe sell some on my website. So we did a run of maybe I did a 10 pound sack of spices for me. And then a run of about 600 10s of spices. 400 of those tents got bought up immediately. And then the rest were sold online and shops here. But I didn't realize that I would blow through 600 or 600 10s in three months. And so I said, Okay, why don't we do this with my other things. So I don't have to lug as much and I can be consistent and eat because people are just looking for consistency. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like, it's everyone is like, are you worried about cooking after this nomination, I was just like, Look, I'm just gonna do what I've been doing. I mean, if it's gotten me this far, it's not gonna be too bad. It's one of those things where working with them has really forced me to expand my ability to make it accessible. If I can make it easy for me to do it, it's going to be make it easy for somebody do it at home, nine times out of 10, you have like a 10 year old jar of something that you're putting into it and your recipe doesn't come out. But when you come in with a sack of spices, it makes your life so much easier, so much easier. Because you have your flavors blended and onpoint you know what's going to be consistent.

Chris Spear: 42:55

Spice ones are my favorite thing. Like I don't even buy that many single spices anymore. Like I don't have a large line of them. You know, things like human eye by obviously, if

Unknown: 43:04

you're doing pop ups, it makes sense to to make a large blend of something that you use a lot for, like using for three months. Like that's what's going to save you time and effort when you're on the road. That's what's going to save you all those unknown variables. It's about keeping it simple. It's you know, the videos that do the best on the internet are the simplest things like how to cut a bell pepper, when when you want to have that crossover sort of appeal because like ultimately, I was never here for the for the you know, the fine dining set, I can I can hang with them, I can cook with them. I have taught myself and learned enough and have enough support around me that I can hang if I have to. But that's not what I'm here for. I only I'm here for the folks who didn't have any representation of how they ate and what they ate. I'm here for the folks that might not have figured out where they wanted to land. It's, you know, it's anybody can do this if they have a strong enough of a base. And that's why I think it's resonated. That's why I think what I've been doing has resonated is I've made those things accessible.

Chris Spear: 44:13

How do you choose your collaborators, like I know with spice Wallah, how that kind of came about, but like pop ups and the chefs you want to work with?

Unknown: 44:21

Nine times out of 10 Somebody just saying, Hey, do you want to come cook? And I'll say yes.

Chris Spear: 44:25

Okay, so you're easy like that? Yeah,

Unknown: 44:27

it's like, it's if it sounds like it's going to be a good time, I'll do it. If it sounds like it's gonna be terrible. I'll drag somebody else to do it with me. But it's, you know, it's one of those things where when you can become selective about what makes you happy and what you're satisfied with doing. It makes a huge difference.

Chris Spear: 44:46

And I'm sure knowing the background of who it is like if it's not some random person, I'm sure you know, like who the cool people are that you know, seem like good people you want to work with

Unknown: 44:55

you never know. That's the other thing is that you can only do something about things once you know I've been in situations where I've walked in blind, and then I found out things and I've been like, Ooh, that's a bad look. But at the same time, you know, I only know what I'm told. And so now at least folks will step up and say, Hey, do you know this? Or that? Or do you know this about this thing? Or I'm like, nope, send me what I need to know. Because essentially, as as long as you know, somebody isn't gonna be horrible to me, or horrible to my folks who come and actually support me all over the place. Like, it's generally a good start. I'm pretty good at breaking down kitchens into a fun moment of cooking ethnic food and having a lot of fun. And if I can keep on doing that, I think this little pop up landscape is gonna get a whole lot friendlier.

Chris Spear: 45:47

I love it. I think pop ups like that's the things I love to go to that are exciting. I'm going to one in DC this week, like a collab, you know, I just think it's interesting, especially if you know, a chef or know of a chef to see them do something different, you know, if it's a fusion, you know, dirty word, whatever, but like, but like a mash up of their cuisines.

Unknown: 46:07

I mean, it's, it's also an opportunity to learn something that you've never done before. And so like, for me, I learned how to make really crispy chicken skins at one pop up, because they said, Hey, have you ever tried this way to do it? Like, do you have a way that you do? And I'm like, I've got this way. But if you know of something better, I'm all ears. You know, I'll weigh it out. And I'll be like, Okay, this seems like a good idea. This seems like it would work. This seems like it wouldn't work. And sometimes I get some of my best components that way.

Chris Spear: 46:34

It's almost like astonishing without all the headache that comes along with astonishing. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show. And we're gonna be like holding our breaths with this James Beard award thing coming up. So I'm pulling for you. Thank

Unknown: 46:48

you for having me. That's so kind. I really appreciate it again, it's a beautiful, happy surprise. And I'm just, I'm enjoying the moment.

Chris Spear: 46:56

You have to I can't even imagine what that's like.

Unknown: 46:59

It's definitely it makes you reflect on everything that you've gone through, that's for sure.

Chris Spear: 47:05

Well, I'm gonna start thinking about my trip down to Kentucky and we'll look you up if I'm coming down that way. It's gonna be fun. Thanks again. And to all of our listeners. This has been Chris with the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast. Thanks so much and have a great week. Cheers. Y'all. Go to chefs without restaurants.org To find our Facebook group, mailing list and check database. The community is free to join. You'll get gig opportunities, advice on building and growing your business and you'll never miss an episode of our podcast. Have a great week.