Ep 199: Productize Your B2B Consulting Offer For Easier Sales | Joe Daniels [Solo Consultant Summit Series]

Welcome And Meet Joe Daniels

Sara 0:00

Welcome to the Solo Consultant Summit series, where we spotlight the experts who'll be taking the stage at the summit. I'm your host, Sarah Noel Block, and today I'm joined by Joe Daniels. Joe helps B2B consultants package up their offers so they practically sell themselves. He's also speaking at the Solo Consultant Summit in September, and in this conversation, we dig into what it really takes to make your offer buyable without the icky sales calls.

Sarah Noel Block 0:30

All right. Hey, Jo. It's so good to have you.

Joe Daniels 0:33

Hey, how's it going? Thanks for having me

Sarah Noel Block 0:36

Yeah. So today we are talking about sales specifically for B2B consultants. So that's exciting because not a lot of people talk about that, like when you're a one-person team, how that works, and a lot of sales advice comes from, uh, like B2C, where you're doing more mass selling rather than this, which is a whole different skill set.

Joe Daniels 1:05

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, yeah, so I'm Joe. Uh, and yeah, I, like you kind of alluded to, I help, uh, B2B consultants predominantly. Um, and I guess the focus that I have is how do you kind of package up your offer and what you do and your service in a way that it kind of reduces the need on you to sell it as much as possible, and it kind of speaks for itself, I suppose, um, would be, would be in a nutshell, I suppose.

Sarah Noel Block 1:34

I mean, okay, so everybody I've been talking to over the last two weeks has been talking about how much they dread having to be salesy or to sell on a sales call, and I'm like, "Really, it's mostly about relationships. You don't have to worry too much about that."

Joe Daniels 1:50

Yeah

Sarah Noel Block 1:51

But let's get into the offer piece of it. So how can you package up your offers so you don't actually have to do so much selling?

Why Sales Feels So Icky

Joe Daniels 2:03

Yeah, it's, uh... So I mean, I, I guess like to start with, like, I suppose like selling itself is an interesting word, right? Because I think the thing that comes to mind for me naturally and for other people like myself is that idea of sales being like a, you have to try and convince people, right? You have to be like, "Oh, no, this is why you need to buy my thing," and so on. And I think, you know, there is obviously some schools of thought that are like, that's not really what selling is. Sales is just about present- like understanding the problem and solving it sort of thing. Um, but I think the majority of people see sales as like slightly pushy in some way, and I think that's what puts them off, like, like you said. Um, and I think when I started my own business and when I've helped other businesses in the past before kind of formalizing what I do now, I guess part of it, you know, whether it was the positioning or the messaging or the marketing or the offer, it was always kind of in the back of my head, I was like, I suppose the point of this is that it kind of does most of the heavy lifting for you before you ever even talk to these people that are interested in your service. And, um, as someone that hates any form of convincing on a call I was like,

Sarah Noel Block 3:13

It feels icky. It feels

Joe Daniels 3:15

need to..." Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely, yeah. And even, even though logically people are like, "No, but you're not really." It's like, no, I know that, but I can't help but feel that, right? And

Sarah Noel Block 3:24

But well then why is my body wanting to run away right now?

Joe Daniels 3:28

Yeah, exactly. And so, um, yeah, and so I guess I just kind of... I, I started helping people package up what they do and kind of take their expertise and package it up in a way that when a prospect, you know, sees their content and then goes on a website or a sales page, whatever, whatever that flow looks like, you know, almost like 80 to 90% of the decision can then kind of be made by them before they ever reach out to you. Um, and the interesting thing about that is that's in line with how people want to buy, right? And I think there's a mismatch between a lot of sales advice and a lot of what buyers want, and it's like they're often two different things. And like, I can't remember the exact number off the top of my head, but I, I think it was around 75% of buyers, according to some Gartner research, said that they, they wanted like a completely sales rep-free buying experience, right? They wanted to go and do their own research, look at recommendations, you know, maybe use AI now to sort of figure out, okay, well, like what, who are, who are the people that are solving this problem for me? Uh, and they'll go away and they'll want to see, well, how much does it cost? What's included? What are the deliverables? Et cetera. And make that comparison and then go, "Okay, well, maybe I've got a shortlist of two or three people. Now I'll go and talk to them." And if you're not making it easy and giving them all the information they need, then you're probably not gonna be one of those two or three people on the shortlist, and then you've essentially missed out on that person by, I guess, trying to like gatekeep the information

How Buyers Want To Decide

Joe Daniels 5:00

is, is what a lot of people s- tend to do. Um-

Sarah Noel Block 5:03

Uh, tell me more about that. How do people gatekeep their information? Are you talking about, like, proposals and bespoke only?

Joe Daniels 5:12

Uh, yeah. I, I mean, I guess, you know, the bespoke only is, is really interesting because bespoke doesn't really make sense for either party, right? Because as a buyer I'm like, "Well, I don't know what I'm getting," and so, like, I don't know, I don't know what's going on. And, uh, and if you do bespoke work, um, I'm sure you know previous guests that you've had have spoke about this kind of thing, like you get sucked into this trap of always reinventing the wheel, and like you don't standardize anything, so you spend more and more time doing new things for each client, and it's a nightmare, and your head gets muddled. Um,

Sarah Noel Block 5:46

it takes forever 'cause you're basically like reinventing what you do slightly different every

Joe Daniels 5:52

Yeah, just like a constant tweaking of your process and, and eventually it just means that, you know, all y- y- it's not that you don't make any profit, but your profit margins are lower as a result, right? And so that, that bespoke work is a good example of, of not, of what not to do to a certain extent. I always say to my clients, like, sell bespoke stuff on the upsell if you want to, like that makes total sense, but as a first engagement, it's a really hard sell and unless you are confident in the sales process side of things and you are happy to, to reinvent the wheel every time, then, then it's hard to make that work. Um, you

Sarah Noel Block 6:27

Yeah

Joe Daniels 6:28

and so, um, the other example that always comes up is pricing and people get really, really like passionate about this online. If you ever want some LinkedIn engagement, just post about transparent pricing and, uh, you'll get loads.

Sarah Noel Block 6:40

are your feelings about it? I'm curious.

Joe Daniels 6:43

so, so I'm very much in the camp of have some sort of indication, right? Like the, uh, the, the boring answer is it's nuanced, right? But like the... I think don't have any- don't have zero pricing, that doesn't make any sense because someone, they need some indication and the more packaged up you are with your offer and the more standardized it is, the more accurate that transparent price can be, right? Because you know, you know, I know that I'm gonna do X, Y, and Z for you. I know it's gonna take roughly this amount of time. I can say that this is how much it costs. Cool. Um, whereas, you know, if you're selling a bespoke service, it's almost impossible to price it up accurately. But even then you probably can do a ballpark figure. You probably know, well, the minimum I ever charge is 10K. It's like, okay, well put that on. Do you know what I mean? At least put something there or...

Sarah Noel Block 7:31

like starting at or

Joe Daniels 7:33

And if it is like a, I don't know, like a modular thing or like it's determined by a number of deliverables, then have a pricing calculator, right? Like you can spin one out in AI now in probably 30 seconds and just say, "Make me a pricing calculator" and it probably will, and like give them some way of figuring out how much it's gonna cost, even if it's a ballpark figure. Um, but there tends to still be some resistance to that, and I think it's because you can't... A, a lot of businesses aren't set up to just put their pricing on their website, right? Like that's the issue really is it, it surfaces the underlying issue of, well, we don't really have a clear offer, so how could we possibly put a transparent price on our

Sarah Noel Block 8:12

And another problem with that is that you don't have a baseline to be able to figure out, like, how many sales you ch- you need in order to hit your revenue goals. How do you ever calculate that if it's always different?

Joe Daniels 8:25

Yeah. Yeah. It's, um, I mean, it's funny how many people I talk to, how many consultants I talk to who, who don't even really have a revenue goal. Um, and so, I mean, that's a whole other topic of conversation. But, but, um, um, but there are,

Sarah Noel Block 8:40

watching the video will see my eyes bulge out of my head at that one.

Joe Daniels 8:44

I'm sure, I'm sure you'll have seen something similar. Um, um, yeah, like, and, and like you say, like all the stuff that you should ideally be doing in terms of forecasting and working out, like, you know, for example, you know, if you know exactly, you know, how much each client is gonna give you financially, then you can go, "Okay, well I need X number of clients a month, and I know that my conversion rate is 50%, so I know that I need this number of leads coming in." Like, you, you can start working out everything, right,

Sarah Noel Block 9:15

Yeah, you can reverse engineer exactly what you need to do to hit that money.

Joe Daniels 9:21

Absolutely. Yeah

Sarah Noel Block 9:22

it blows my mind. You-- This is a business.

Joe Daniels 9:25

Yeah.

Sarah Noel Block 9:26

not volunteering. I'm taking a cough drop.

Joe Daniels 9:31

Um, but no, I think, I think that's the interesting thing is like, and I see this, I, I, I think it's, it's a pattern that probably happens in all industries, but I think happens in service-based industries a lot is people start a business because they love that thing that they do, what- whatever that store design is, uh, not because they're a business person, and that is a completely different set of skills. And, you know, I'm not saying you necessarily need like formal business education, like I never had that, but like you need some awareness I think of the business side too, or s- you know, work with someone that does know that side to help you. But like I think, I think it is an often overlooked aspect of it. Um-

Sarah Noel Block 10:12

one thing that I've seen with a lot of consultants

The Bespoke Trap And Pricing Clarity

Sarah Noel Block 10:15

is that they usually start on, like, referrals only and, um, or subbing for someone who already knows the business side of things because they'll take care of the marketing and the sales piece of it, and you just have to do the deliverables. That's usually where people start, and then they get to a point where it's like, "Okay, if I'm gonna make this an actual business, I need to start thinking about this stuff."

Joe Daniels 10:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, the referrals is interesting because in a way, you know, the more, you know, I talk about viability, right, as my thing, and I guess what I mean by that is like how viable is your offer? Like how easy is it to buy on its own without ever speaking to you, I suppose is the point. And, and actually the, the more clear you are on what that offer is, referrals are easier too, right? Because, you know, if I know exactly what you do and the problem you solve and who you solve it for, well, it's way easier for me to spot when you're a good fit for someone versus if you're like, "Oh, you know, I kind of just do marketing." It's like, oh, okay. Well, that, that doesn't really help me refer you to anyone because like, what, how do I know who to refer you to, when to refer you to them, et cetera. Um, so yeah, it, it, you know, obviously I'm biased because it's, it's, because I do offer stuff, but I think offer stuff is kind of the, the central foundation of, of almost everything, um, that,

Sarah Noel Block 11:38

let's talk about that. So you talked about like you can do bespoke upgrades to upsell. So when you're talking about offer stuff and buyability, are you talking about that entry offer that people will always buy first?

Joe Daniels 11:57

It, it should... I mean, it depends on the business, right? Like, I think, you know, the entry offer model works really well. Uh, I, I would advocate maybe to have, like, a smaller entry offer, um, that is very pr- packaged up, productized almost, let's say. Then kind of like a core offer that is, like, your flagship offer that should still be, you know, it doesn't have to be productized to the letter, but it should still be standardized in a way that you can kind of be transparent on price still. It's still a clear process. You're still solving the same problem over and over again. Um, and then I think there's maybe a third tier, right? Which is, like, actually if they've kind of come through, let's say they've come through your entry offer, do your core offer. If you want to carry on working with them and they want to carry on working with you, it makes sense then that because they trust you and, and they know that you can do a good job, and you like them and trust them as a client, that you may as well kind of come to some sort of arrangement together to go, "Okay, well, how do we continue this working relationship?" And that's where a bespoke upsell does make sense. I think the reason bespoke doesn't make sense to- for the entry point sort of thing is because you can't market it, you know? Like, you can, you can... Iro- ironically, like, a bespoke offer is easier to sell one-to-one because you could come to me and say, "Joe, I need X, Y, and Z," and I'd go, "Okay. Here's X, Y, and Z." And you'd go, "Oh, great." Uh, whereas if I go to the market with my content and marketing and ads and so on, and I say, "Oh, guys, I do X, Y, and Z," it's like, "Well, okay, cool." And so it's like it, it's, it... You need to It's easier to market an offer that's packaged up, but, uh, easier to sell in a way, bizarrely, a product that isn't. It's just that you're never gonna get the leads coming through for that. Do you see what

Sarah Noel Block 13:50

I'm gonna reiterate what you said just then because I think it's important. So having these packaged up offers, especially like the more entry offers, is important for more mass marketing and getting inbound leads. While the more bespoke offers, that's more of a one-to-one selling experience, and they'll sell easier because you're customizing it to whatever they need

Joe Daniels 14:17

Yeah. Like I, I guess, you know, the, the most important currency here is trust, right? And I think every purchase decision in, especially in B2B is really how much do I trust that this person is gonna provide the outcome that I need? And if they are new to working with you, then inevitably that trust is gonna be lower. Just like you could have the best marketing in the world, the best content and so on, but they still haven't actually worked with you, and so they, they still don't fully trust you. Whereas obviously if, if they have, well then actually that trust's at an all-time high. Uh, and so it does make sense to, to do a bespoke offer then because the unknowns don't matter as much, um, I suppose is what I'm trying to say. Um,

Sarah Noel Block 16:02

Yeah. Except for that piece that we talked about earlier where the more bespoke it is, the more complicated it is for you to deliver

Joe Daniels 16:10

Yeah. And I think that's why it should almost be like reserved for like your favorite clients, you know? Like, I

Sarah Noel Block 16:15

Yeah, like alumni.

Joe Daniels 16:17

yeah, yeah, yeah. Exact- Like, you know, there are some people that wanna dive straight into doing, you know, these big custom, uh, complex ongoing retainer stuff, and it's like that, that's kind of not good for either of you, right? Because like they're like, "Well, I don't want to get into, it's like this marriage with this person for a long time." And also you might not want to. Like yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, you're, you might after a month be like, "God, these are awful." Like it's, uh

Sarah Noel Block 16:44

Oh, yeah. I've been there where I'm like, "Oh."

Joe Daniels 16:47

Yeah. Yeah. I-

Sarah Noel Block 16:48

earlier in my business, I definitely did that, and then I was stuck for a while.

Joe Daniels 16:55

Yeah. Uh, yeah. I mean, obvious- obviously, you know, you can sometimes just walk away, right? And it's fine, but it, it still puts you in that awkward position of like, "Oh, well, now I'm stuck with, with a client I don't really want," which, which kind of defeats the point of working for yourself.

Sarah Noel Block 17:09

I love having an entry offer that's two weeks max, so you guys can both, like, test each other out and also, like, build that foundation that you'll need for a longer term relationship before moving on, 'cause you're deciding if you wanna work with that client just as much as they're deciding if they wanna work with you

Joe Daniels 17:29

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, that two-week thing, you know, is, you know, inherently more viable, right? Because it's, it's two weeks.

Sarah Noel Block 17:37

Yeah, it's like, why not?

Joe Daniels 17:39

it's two weeks. I probably know how much it costs because it's an entry offer, and I know what I'm gonna get out of it. And the worst case scenario ultimately is that I get to the end of that two weeks and maybe I've wasted that money, right? But like, but like it- it's... I know what I'm getting into, and I think that's the key thing. Um, and I think that question really and is like, would you buy that? Do you know what I mean? And if... And so it's like, if I if a stranger approached you and you were like, "Oh, why don't we work together for six months, and we're gonna do a call every two weeks, and, uh, and it's gonna, you know, cost maybe something like this, and maybe I'll give you some deliverables, uh, depending on what you need."

Sarah Noel Block 18:21

That's a hard pass.

Joe Daniels 18:23

like, "Well, yeah, I don't know. I don't know what that is." Whereas if it's like, "Oh yeah, you know what? In two weeks I'm gonna nail down who your target client is, and you'll come away with a report saying exactly what they need." It's, "Okay, cool. Yeah. I, I know what I'm getting." Do you know what I mean? And so it's, it's, it's how can you remove as many unknowns as possible for them before they ever talk to you, I suppose is really the, the, the

Sarah Noel Block 18:45

Yeah, and we talked about price a little bit too, where I like that entry offer to be a why not price. Like, w- why not test this out and see if it's a good fit for

Joe Daniels 18:56

Yeah, I like that phrase. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I like that. You know, people say like no-brainer and stuff, don't they? I think that's like an Alex Hormozi kind of, uh, thing, but always feels a bit like, you know, it just conjures up like

Entry Offers That Build Trust

Joe Daniels 19:07

an image of zombies. So, so I always find it a bit weird. Um, but yeah, I like... The why, why not phrase. Yeah, I like that. We'll go with that.

Sarah Noel Block 19:16

Uh, yeah. Now I have the visual of zombies just mindlessly saying, "Why not?"

Joe Daniels 19:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarah Noel Block 19:25

Um, let's talk a bit about the buy-ability. So you talked about the buy-ability factor, and I just wanna bring up... So you're gonna be speaking at the Solo Consultant Summit in September. Super excited about that. So is Kendall Cherry, who is talking about sales processes, and I had my pre-call with her last week to go over topics, and she was telling me about her process of her lead magnet is her service guide, and it has her pricing on it. So, like, she was talking about how easy it is, where she hasn't had a sales call in years, that people buy from that. So I wanna hear about your perspective on that buy-ability piece.

Joe Daniels 20:13

Yeah, that's really cool. Um, yeah, so I mean, I, I, I experimented once upon a time with, um, with getting rid of sales calls and found that people still wanted to speak to me. Um, I guess just more of a, is this guy a normal, relatively normal, let's say, human being that, that I want to work with? Um, and so I think there's that.

Sarah Noel Block 20:37

been able to get rid of them. I,

Joe Daniels 20:39

Yeah.

Sarah Noel Block 20:40

I always have them

Joe Daniels 20:42

Yeah. And I think, I, I think, you know, it makes, it makes sense. And also, I, I think, um, it's, it just becomes not a sales call, right? It becomes like a fit call or a check call or like a... It's like a, it's like do we, you know, do we want to work together or do we not, essentially. Um, but you know, when I have these calls, you know, I refer to them as sales calls because that's just what you call them, I guess. But it... Really what happens is it's them talking for the majority of the call, right? They're talking, I'm asking them questions about their situation and what they're doing to solve it currently and all that sort of stuff to see if they're a good fit for me. And maybe they'll have one or two specific questions that are, like, about their specific situation, but I don't need to tell them what I do. I don't need to tell them what they get from working with me, because they should already know that by virtue of it's there on my website and so on. So, so I think, you know, it... I, I'm s- in a similar position I suppose, except I do think the calls are slightly useful as a filter for them, but also for you. You know, I, I remember the agency I worked for before I started working for myself, we once sold an 18K package of work to an agency that we'd never spoke to because we were experimenting with this idea of, well, what if we just put, like, a pay now page on the website and people could just buy it? And someone did, and, uh, it did not go well, so to say. So, so, so, like, actually that call probably would've been really useful. Like, yeah, I just felt like it, it... It's not that they weren't nice people or anything, it's just that I think they were expecting maybe something slightly different. Uh, we didn't know who they were or their situation, and maybe if we'd got on that call we could have gone, "You know what? Maybe we're not a good fit, so maybe you need to go and do this instead, or at least go and do this first or something." And I think, I think that's a useful thing to be able to do. Um, sometimes it's just... It's sometimes to say no to them, right? And it, and it's, uh... Which again, sounds weird 'cause the point is to try to sell them something. But I think there's a, a power that comes with the

Sarah Noel Block 22:45

say no all the time,

Joe Daniels 22:46

Yeah. Like, yeah.

Sarah Noel Block 22:47

constantly. I'll, I'll do my gateway offer, which is a booked out blueprint with most people. But then by the end of it, if they wanna... I will tell some people, like, "My next offer doesn't make sense for you yet.

Joe Daniels 23:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarah Noel Block 23:06

go see this person."

Joe Daniels 23:07

Yeah. Yeah. And, and, well, that's the other nice thing, right? 'Cause then it starts, you get referral relationships built with other people because it's like, well, actually it makes sense for me to send people to you instead, and you might then do the same. And, right, and so it, like, it... And so that's another nice, you know, entry point for people, too. Um, do you find, like... I, I mean, I don't know if you find this. Sometimes people almost then try to sell themselves into your offer, too, like, which you, which becomes really strange when you're like, "No, I don't think you need this right now." They're like, "Oh, I don't know. I think I do." It's like, "No, wait, no. This isn't, this isn't how this is supposed to go."

Sarah Noel Block 23:40

That happened a couple of weeks ago where they were convinced that my offer was the right one, and I'm like, "No, it really isn't. You're actually doing really freaking amazing on sales and marketing. You don't need me. What you need is an ops person."

Joe Daniels 23:57

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, and I, I think that's a really interesting thing that, like, you can be as clear as possible on, "Here's the problem I solve, here's w- who has it, and here's why you need to solve it." And I think sometimes you can almost be too good at that and people convince themselves like, "Oh yeah, I have that pro-" You know, like, I don't know, if the doctor says, "Oh, you're, you're ill in this certain way," you might not... Yeah, what's an example? I broke my collarbone when I was a child, and wasn't in any pain until the doctor told me that I'd done that, and I should,

Sarah Noel Block 24:28

That's all

Joe Daniels 24:28

I sh- and I should be in pain. And I was like, "Oh, now you've said it, now, now my shoulder really hurts."

Sarah Noel Block 24:33

does hurt now that

Joe Daniels 24:34

yeah. And I, and I think sometimes people get that where they, they'll might read your website and go, "Oh, man, yeah, I do need this." And it's like, "No, you don't actually. It's okay." Like, it's like, if anything, I've done too good a job at convincing

Sarah Noel Block 24:46

Yeah. You know what? I don't even know if it's, like it is, it is that, but it's also the fact that a lot of people will come to a consultant and not realize what their true challenge is. All they're doing is, like they feel the pain of what they're going through, and they can make guesses on what's causing it, but it's not until like you're working with them that you're like, "Oh, no. Now that I'm actually like combing through what's actually happening with you, this is the, the true problem."

Joe Daniels 25:21

yeah, yeah

Sarah Noel Block 25:23

And, and this person solves it, not me.

Joe Daniels 25:25

Well, well, I think what's really interesting about that too, 'cause that def- that definitely happens, is if you go into that sales call and you have to do a lot of the work in terms of, okay, well, I need to sell them in on my process that I've not really properly explained, and I need to sell them in, I need to figure out what they need, I need to put... Almost like you're coming up with what your offer is on the call, like, and, like, sort of improvising it,

Sarah Noel Block 25:49

Yeah,

Joe Daniels 25:49

then you're...

Sarah Noel Block 25:50

bespoke and you're trying to like formulate what that would

Joe Daniels 25:52

Yeah. You're then... You, you then become so focused on what you're saying and what you're trying to offer that I think you probably won't take the time to listen to what they're t- saying and what their situation is, and therefore you might not ever surface the fact that they don't need you

Sales Calls As Fit Calls

Joe Daniels 26:07

right now, they need this other thing instead, and you end up selling them something that they don't need, and then they- obviously ends badly for everyone involved. And I think the, the, the flip side of that to be like, well, actually, if they come onto that call already knowing everything that I do and what they're gonna get from me, then, you know, 20 minutes of that 30-minute call can just be them talking about their, their situation. You can very quickly figure out whether they're actually need, whether they actually need you or not, and I think that's... It becomes like a diagnostic call, I suppose, in a way.

Sarah Noel Block 26:39

Yeah, that's exactly how I think of it too. Like, let's actually like f- get in there and figure out what's going on so I can put you on the right road.

Joe Daniels 26:52

Yeah. And, and interestingly, that could also work as an entry offer sometimes, right? Like, I don't know whether

Sarah Noel Block 26:56

That's exactly what I do. It's my entry offer, yeah.

Joe Daniels 27:00

yeah. Um, yeah, you know, just a, a low commitment thing to say, "Let's just figure out if you've even got the problem," because actually there's no point in, in wasting your money on solving something you don't need to solve. So, so like, uh, I think there's an element of let's figure out actually where you are could be a good entry offer in itself if you, if you, you know, if you're listening and you don't have one, there you go.

Sarah Noel Block 27:18

Yeah. If you don't... I like having a very specific outcome for it, but a diagnosis needs to be part of every single one so you can see, like, where they're at before you build a road for them

Joe Daniels 27:32

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I think that goes back to, you know, the old way, which I guess used to be a bit more consultative selling, where you would almost give a lot of that value away as part of the sales process traditionally,

Sarah Noel Block 27:47

Yes. And that w-

Joe Daniels 27:49

Yeah, go

Sarah Noel Block 27:50

don't do that.

Joe Daniels 27:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It re- it really, really devalues your expertise, right? If you're like, if you're like... I, I'm all for giving your knowledge and stuff away as much as you can in terms of content and so on, right? Like, I do that all the time. But when it becomes specific to them, I think that's when you should always be charging for it. And I think, um, yeah, I think, I think the diagnostic and even strategy used to be given away as part of a sales process to sell you into, like, um,

Sarah Noel Block 28:21

Yeah, it

Joe Daniels 28:21

deliverable, I guess. And it's like, uh

Sarah Noel Block 28:22

You're right, 'cause that was often part of the proposal was like, "And this is the reason that I'm proposing this." It takes hours to put together a proposal. I haven't done a proposal in years.

Joe Daniels 28:35

Yeah, yeah. yeah. Sometimes

Sarah Noel Block 28:37

offer, and that's where you get the strategy and what will happen

Joe Daniels 28:42

It's, it's funny because sometimes people are like, "Oh, you know, can you send a proposal?" I'm like, "Uh, just go on my website. Like, it's,

Sarah Noel Block 28:48

No.

Joe Daniels 28:49

it's there. Like, it's, it's, it's, like, it's, it exists already." Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, the page you've already read probably by talking, by talking to me, it's, it's there. That,

Sarah Noel Block 28:58

That's the proposal, my friend.

Joe Daniels 29:02

um... Yeah, no, I'm with you. I think, you know, um, that, that kind of culture of giving a lot away, a lot of important value in, like, the pitch and sales process is a really bad thing that happened, essentially. And agencies get it really badly as well. They get it a lot worse than consultants I think, 'cause consultants already are at least slightly positioned in a way that's I'm selling my thinking. A lot of agent- agencies and service providers who are selling the doing often feel that pressure to, like, give away the thinking to try and sell the doing, and it's like that doesn't make any sense. Like that's a,

Sarah Noel Block 29:39

No, you're right. 'Cause like

Joe Daniels 29:41

um-

Sarah Noel Block 29:42

earlier in my business, it, I was running it as an agency, and I would do the proposal process, and it took me a couple years to be like, "Why, why am I doing this? Why am I giving away my expertise and wasting time?"

Joe Daniels 30:01

Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

Sarah Noel Block 30:02

and do not ever email that proposal. It always has to be on a call if you are doing a proposal

Joe Daniels 30:09

I completely agree with that. And I think, I think, I, I mean, you know, I used to send... I used to-- I did use to send proposals, and it was only after sending like, I don't know, five let's say, that were exactly the same thing I was like, "Wait, why am I, why am I sending this out every time? Why, why?" Like, it doesn't make any sense. Um, so yeah, I think, you know, obviously, you know, if you wanna send a, like a follow-up email with some, with the details that you spoke about and stuff, fine. But you know, nowadays people record the, the calls and stuff anyway, right? So like it, it, you don't even really need that point of record anymore. Um, but

Sarah Noel Block 30:43

I like doing that though still so I can set a boomerang to remind

Joe Daniels 30:48

Okay.

Sarah Noel Block 30:48

to reach back out to them

Joe Daniels 30:50

What, what's a boomerang?

Sarah Noel Block 30:52

Um, it's an app in Gmail where it will come back into your inbox in like two weeks if they haven't replied, so you can follow up with them.

Joe Daniels 31:01

Nice. Okay. Didn't know about that. I just thought you didn't have any idea what you're talking about.

Sarah Noel Block 31:06

Before, yeah. Um, like think of it like a CRM, how you'd get like a task alert to follow up with someone.

Joe Daniels 31:13

But in your inbox. Yeah

Sarah Noel Block 31:15

except it goes in your inbox.

Joe Daniels 31:17

Cool. Okay.

Sarah Noel Block 31:18

Um, okay. But let's, real quick, I want to make sure that we hit on like what can people who are listening or watching this do to make their offer more buyable from, like on the page? So what do you include on your website to make sure it's easy for people?

Joe Daniels 31:38

So like I, I have like, um, you know, like, like every consultant, I have like a framework and model kind of thing, but it's getting there. Um, uh, so viability for me, there's, there's three elements that I call the three Ds. They are, um, desired, so to what, to what extent does someone want the offer that you're putting in front of them? Uh, different, which is to what extent is it different from other solutions that are out there? Uh, and decisive, which is I guess been the focus mostly of this chat we've had, which is like, are you giving them all the information they need to make that decision now, arguably? Um, to, to do that, I would often advise, you know, A, get very clear on the problem that you solve and explain that in a way which is, "You're probably feeling these pain points and these symptoms," so that, that... so that they resonate with that and go, "Yeah, that is what I'm feeling." And then un- explain the underlying problem that, that's, that basically would solve all of those pain points if you solve that problem. That then gives it a name and they go, "Okay, cool. This is the problem I have." That's the diagnosis, I guess. Um, then the important thing, 'cause that's the des- that's the, uh, desired bit. To be different, then it's really important to go, "Okay, well, this is how most people in this situation that y- you're in solve the problem, but it doesn't work." And you have to explain why that old solution doesn't really work anymore, or because of the limitations or whatever. And then you can segue into yours and say, "Well, mine does work because it overcomes these limitations, you know, because of X, Y, and Z." And that's where your differentiator comes in, uh, to show that you're different. And then you can kind of then wrap things up by explaining your solution, which is where all the details come in, in terms of, "Here's the step-by-step process, here's what's included, here's the deliverables, here's what it costs," as we spoke, spoke about before. Um, and then, you know, what's the next step, right? How, like, whatever it is, whether it's download this PDF or whether it's book a call, you know, whatever that looks like, make that very clear in terms of, "Here's the next thing you need to do if you want to work with me." Um, I think that's kind of it, right? You, you've kind of explained everything they need to know, um-

Sarah Noel Block 33:50

Yeah, and you were talking about how when you had an agency, you let people buy straight from the website, and then you were

Stop Giving Strategy Away

Sarah Noel Block 33:57

like, "No, I hate this actually. I need to be able to vet them." So would you recommend then that the next step either be like fill out a form and we schedule a call, or just like go straight to a scheduler?

Joe Daniels 34:09

I think it depends slightly. So I... So for me, for example, you can buy my entry offer, which is, you know, similar to yours in that it's more of a diagnostic kind of thing. You can buy that without speaking to me, right? Because it's like, well, actually, I don't need to spend 30 minutes on a call with you. I may as well just... You may as well buy it and I'll spend that time with you. Yeah. Like, yeah. Um, so, you know, because it's, you know, 'cause it's lo- lower cost and, you know, a lower ticket thing, that's, that's just, you can buy that, right? You can just click through to Stripe and buy it. Um, for the other offers which, which I have, uh, which are, you know, bigger, higher ticket ones, I currently have book a call just because I still like that human touch and, you know, if I ever got to the point where I was, like, inundated with sales calls, well, obviously then I'd have to rethink that, but, like, that's a nice problem to have. So I...

Sarah Noel Block 35:01

Yeah.

Joe Daniels 35:02

So that'd be fine. Um, so, so-

Sarah Noel Block 35:02

what Kendall was going through. She's like, "I need more of my time back."

Joe Daniels 35:06

Yeah, yeah, which is absolutely fair enough. That makes total sense. Um, as long as you've got some sort of filter in place, then I think that would make sense. So maybe it's a form or questionnaire or

Sarah Noel Block 35:14

actually doing a training on how she filters without the sales calls

Joe Daniels 35:19

there we go. There um, well, I, I, I might need that, yeah. Um, so yeah, I think to answer your question, I suppose it depends on what you're selling, but I think, I think no- as long as there's kind of, you know, one or maybe two things for them to do. Um, I also like to have a, a value add, like freebie kind of thing as well as an alternative. So if y- it's basically like you can book a call and we can chat now. If you're not quite ready, here's a free audit thing that you can get instead. And so it, it gives them something else if they're not quite ready to make that leap, um, is, is probably a useful thing to think about too. Like how can you, how can you give them some kind of value if just to sort of seal the deal, I suppose? Um-

Sarah Noel Block 36:06

Yeah. Yeah, and the people we're talking to today, a lot of them are selling to businesses that have a t- a committee of decision-makers that need to decide on any buying decisions. So that thing, like that freebie that they download could be some sort of sales enablement type of thing that you can bring to your team and see, like, do you think that this is a good solution?

Joe Daniels 36:34

Yeah, it's a really good point and, and, you know, it, it's a whole topic in itself, right? Uh, it, it... I sell to the decision maker, right? 'Cause I'm selling to the business owner, so I don't have to worry as much about that sales enablement side of things because, like, well,

Sarah Noel Block 36:50

Yeah, same with me. But back in the agency days, I was selling to committees

Joe Daniels 36:56

yeah, yeah. I think it's a really important point to make, which is I, I, I very b- much believe that your offer and all the messaging around it and how you package it up on your website should be aimed at the champion, but you also should probably arm them in some way so with something to take to the decision maker that they need sign off from if that's, if that's the case for your target client

Sarah Noel Block 37:18

I wanna define that real quick, um, because some people listening to this might not know what the champion is. So a champion within the organization is the person who wants this problem solved. They're usually the one feeling this pain. I have a few people inside of my program that they're, they're selling B2B to a committee of decision makers, and it's

The Three Ds Of Buyability

Sarah Noel Block 37:42

always problematic. But I'm always like, whoever's feeling the most pain, that's the person you need to talk to because they're gonna sell it internally

Joe Daniels 37:51

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it, it also helps you be more specific to, to focus on them too, right? Because you can talk about here's the exact pain you're feeling specifically to you. Whereas if you try and aim at decision-makers, your messaging becomes all over the place, 'cause it's That's how you end up with, like, the, "We'll help you grow revenue." And it's like, well, okay, well, that does How are you gonna do that? Um-

Sarah Noel Block 38:14

the C-suite, they're only like checking boxes. They don't care a ton about what solves the problem as long as it's solved.

Joe Daniels 38:23

Yeah, yeah

Sarah Noel Block 38:24

who's dealing with it and will have to manage that project internally that cares

Joe Daniels 38:29

Yeah, it's in... Yeah, I think like the, the champion feels the pain. I think sales enablement's job really should be how can you help them communicate that pain in a way that the decision maker goes, "Yeah, we need to solve it." 'Cause they, 'cause they don't feel it. They're, you know, they're too far removed from it. And so if, if someone comes to them and goes, "Oh, you know what? I need, I need such and such a thing," well, they're gonna be like, "Why?" You know, "Why, why do you need that?" And so, uh, you have to help them make that case, you know, as m- as best you can because that's your job, that's what... Or, or just, or just sell to the decision maker. Just like, like us. But, uh,

Sarah Noel Block 39:07

Yeah, it is a lot harder though, 'cause they're so gatekept.

Joe Daniels 39:12

Yes. Yeah, harder to reach them. Yeah,

Sarah Noel Block 39:14

And they don't care. They're not feeling the pain. They don't care as much.

Joe Daniels 39:18

Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

Sarah Noel Block 39:19

yeah, so it really depends on what kind of organization you are selling to. Like, for me and you, we're selling to small businesses, maybe solo businesses, so we're just talking to that decision maker and the person who's feeling the pain, while some of the people that we both sell to are selling to those bigger organizations that have to deal with the red tape of corporate politics

Joe Daniels 39:49

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, and again, it's where, you know, the Buyability does help, just for one last Buyability plug, is that is that if, if you're my champion and I'm... and you're then having to go to your boss or whoever it is to, to get sign-off, if you go to your boss and say, "Oh, well, I wanna work with Joe," and they're like, "Well, what do you- what's he gonna give us?" And you're like, "Oh, I don't really know." They're like, "Oh, what does it cost?" It's like, "Oh, I don't know that either." Then obviously that makes your job a lot harder to get sign-off. Whereas if it's, if it's, "Well, actually, look, here's his website. Here's what he g- here's what we're gonna get out of it," X, Y... X, Y, Z, so and so on, it's, it's a lot easier for them to go, "Oh, yeah. Cool. Okay, yeah." Because, because they'll get it too.

Sarah Noel Block 40:26

good point 'cause they're just

Joe Daniels 40:27

but-

Sarah Noel Block 40:27

like, "Is it within my limits to be able to sign off or do I need an additional person to sign off on

Joe Daniels 40:35

Yeah. Yeah. They, they actually in a way care more about the details of it in the, in the sense of, "Well, I need to know how much it costs, so I need to know what we're actually getting for our money." Whereas obviously the champion probably cares a lot more about, "Can this solve my problem?" Um,

Sarah Noel Block 40:50

exactly. Exactly. That's such a good point. So like on your website, you need to attract that champion, but in any sales enablement, in anything where you're supporting that champion in selling internally, it needs to-- You need to share all of the details that they're gonna need in order to sign off on the paperwork

Joe Daniels 41:13

Agreed.

Sarah Noel Block 41:14

Okay. So Joe is going to be joining us again in September for the Solo Consultant Summit, and I'll make sure to put the wait list in the show notes. And how can people, in the meantime, work with you and find you online?

Joe Daniels 41:30

Yeah. Um, so online I'm, uh, joedaniels.co is my website, um, 'cause the .com was taken and very expensive.

Sarah Noel Block 41:39

I have a

Joe Daniels 41:41

Yeah, yeah.

Sarah Noel Block 41:41

Not anymore, but I did from my original website.

Joe Daniels 41:44

all the cool people have a .co I've heard. Um, and then my LinkedIn is, uh, you know, well, the username is up to Joe Good. I don't really know how the LinkedIn URLs work 'cause it always... I feel like it's got some random thing inside it, but I'm sure there'll be a link to it.

Sarah Noel Block 41:59

Up to Joe Good. Is that what you

Joe Daniels 42:02

Yeah, yeah.

Sarah Noel Block 42:03

said? That's funny

Joe Daniels 42:04

Um, uh,

Sarah Noel Block 42:07

I'm looking at it right now.

Joe Daniels 42:09

um, that's, that's generally where I hang out, basically LinkedIn. Um, I'm basically on, on there too much, so that's where you can find me.

Champions Committees And Next Steps

Joe Daniels 42:17

Um, in terms of working with me, you know, like I kind of hinted at, there's... I do a free audit, which is maybe of interest to people listening, which is basically I will take a look at your current offer and sort of, you know, look at it through the lens of viability and sort of give you some pointers on what's clear, what's not so clear, how you might improve it. Um, that's totally free, you know, no strings attached or anything. Um, so if you wanted one of those, you can find how to get that on my website. Um, yeah. And then, um, you know, all the details are on my website, so it should speak for itself hopefully. Um,

Sarah Noel Block 42:49

Viability. Were you not listening to this episode? You can find it all there.

Joe Daniels 42:55

yeah. Don't ask me for a proposal.

Sarah Noel Block 42:58

Yeah, you're not getting a proposal here. I still have my cough drop in my hand. All right, thank you.

Joe Daniels 43:08

Cheers.

Sarah Noel Block 43:10

Okay

Sara 43:11

That's a wrap on this episode of the Solo Consultant Summit series. If you loved this conversation with Joe Daniels, you won't want to miss his session at the Solo Consultant Summit in September. You can grab Joe's free offer audit and learn more about his work at joedaniels.co. See you at the summit!