Success and Sobriety: Jonathon Sawyer Tells the Story He Once Hid

[01:00:00:16 - 01:00:20:12]
Sylvia
 Before we begin a quick content warning, this episode includes discussion of mental health and suicide. If this brings anything up for you, we want you to know support is available. In the U.S. you can call or text 988 to reach the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. If you're outside the U.S., please check your local resources.

[01:00:31:00 - 01:00:48:03]
Sylvia
 From the outside, it looked like success. Award winning restaurant, a popular cookbook, countless magazine features, a chef in high demand at the top of his game. But behind the heat of the kitchen, Jonathon Sawyer was struggling with his mental health and with alcohol addiction.

[01:00:48:03 - 01:01:16:10]
Jonathon
 I feel like, wow, there are moments inside of my life that are tons of moments that are filled with joy. Joy, they're almost all based around my family and my children and sort of the joy you get in being a parent. But in terms of myself, I couldn't even look myself in the mirror. You know, the height of my addiction, the height of my depression, the height of my sort of personal sadness came at moments where people would probably look from the outside and say, this guy's got everything in the world that he wants.

[01:01:16:10 - 01:01:46:16]
Sylvia
 And that struggle nearly destroyed him. But Sawyer didn't give up. After getting sober, he launched a foundation to support mental health and recovery using his platform to help others who might feel alone. Today, Jonathon Sawyer, the successful chef of Kindling Restaurant in Chicago, shares what he calls a cautionary tale, a story about pressure, addiction, recovery, and why he's chosen to talk about it so others don't feel alone. This is his story.

[01:01:51:00 - 01:02:29:06]
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[01:02:30:12 - 01:02:42:12]
Sylvia
 OK, Jonathon Sawyer, so excited to have you on my podcast. I've interviewed you many times, but this is the first and we get to hear the real Jonathon Sawyer today. Thanks for joining me.

[01:02:42:12 - 01:02:46:04]
Jonathon
 Thank you so much for having me, Sylvia. It's such a pleasure to see you.

[01:02:46:04 - 01:03:13:00]
Sylvia
 Yeah, great to see you too. OK, you are fresh off of a food network win. So I just want to start with that. OK, you have received quite the following because of all these food network shows that you've been doing and your social media. But the latest was which which was huge was this twenty four and twenty four fresh off a victory off of that. Explain to everybody how that worked. That looked like one of the most grueling competitions I've ever seen.

[01:03:14:11 - 01:03:28:21]
Jonathon
 Yeah, truly, there has been comparison in terms of culinary competition that exists. Yeah, it is far out of all of the I don't know, I feel like I counted the other day, twenty one different shows of culinary competition I've done. It is by far the hardest.

[01:03:30:06 - 01:03:46:19]
Jonathon
 But the idea is that twenty four chefs all with their own sort of prestigious pedigree and training and sort of lifestyle show up at a former IKEA in in Hollywood or just outside of Hollywood. And twenty four hours later, only one person lead the arena.

[01:03:47:19 - 01:04:01:16]
Jonathon
 All of the others are eliminated through a process of challenges that really emulate the seven different phases of what it's like to own a restaurant between collaboration and artistry and teamwork and risk taking and et cetera, et cetera.

[01:04:01:16 - 01:04:11:23]
Sylvia
 That had to be exhausting, right? I read somewhere where I think you said that a lot of times behind the scenes, people did realize you guys were exhausted and maybe even thought about, I don't know if I could do this anymore.

[01:04:13:00 - 01:05:05:23]
Jonathon
 Totally. I think there is a moment for everybody inside of that competition, especially those that made it far where you were like, well, maybe four episodes is enough for me to be on and I can just go. Oh, now, you know, it really it really makes you question the why of how you're doing it. But, you know, like I think it's the brilliance of the show is that exhaustion and the honesty that comes from it, you know, as opposed to there's a lot of nonscripted TV or unscripted TV. Out there that maybe uses producers and production to really or alcohol to create the drama that everybody craves watching at home. But when you get to a place where you are sort of more to light hallucinating and you have taste fatigue and your emotions are drained out, the truth comes out on the camera. And that's really what people want to see. Yeah.

[01:05:05:23 - 01:05:50:04]
Sylvia
 Well, I think that's one of the things that I love about you is is what you see is what you get. And your story is so incredible. But I thought it would be fun to start with this with the twenty four and twenty four, because I know a lot of people were talking about that. And I was so excited to have you on my show the day after it was announced that you won. So here you are in Chicago. You're at kindling restaurant. It's an open flame, delicious restaurant. I had the honor of being there when you guys officially opened in twenty twenty three. It's the Willis Tower. But for me, will ever be the Sears Tower. Tell everybody about kindling. What do you have going on? And what do you want them to know about the restaurant? Besides the fact that it's absolutely delicious, Jonathon.

[01:05:51:08 - 01:06:21:22]
Jonathon
 Oh, sure. I mean, I think that we wanted to be a part and a heart of the Renaissance of the loop, right? For decades, maybe people have thought about it as like, quote unquote, the uncool district inside of Chicago. And I feel like we had an opportunity coming out of sort of where we were in twenty twenty two and twenty twenty one and twenty twenty to really change the perception in this iconic location. Right. As you call it, the Sears Tower. I'm not calling it that. It's the Willis Tower. Contractually, I'm obligated to say that.

[01:06:23:04 - 01:07:15:12]
Jonathon
 But but at the end of the day, it is the second busiest tourist attraction inside of the city. It is anywhere between eight and eleven million people walk through our front doors every year. So what I think most people would look at as sort of maybe I want to put this politely, right? Like not your typical Chicago audience. We view this opportunity to really introduce them to what Jonathon's food is and what Woodfire food can be. And for the last five restaurants I opened, we're all Woodfire. And I really am drawn to the hearth. And we have the opportunity here to set up the second largest hearth in the city of Chicago, a 13 foot long island suite that could hold nine cooks at one time, depending on how many people are inside of our restaurant. And we make it a focal point in terms of design, what you see, flavor, what you taste and most certainly what you smell.

[01:07:15:12 - 01:07:32:21]
Sylvia
 Yeah. Well, the restaurant itself is beautiful. But I think the key is to be able to sit around that, that heart to watch you in action is makes the food. You just appreciate it even more besides the fact that it's good anyway. But to see you in action and what happens, I mean, you are all in there.

[01:07:34:00 - 01:07:50:16]
Jonathon
 Truly. Yeah. I mean, those that know they see me there every day. You know what I mean? And I think that there's a good amount of friendship and kinship that I've found between sort of our regulars inside of the tower and near the tower that come in and sort of see. And and convince with me while I'm working there.

[01:07:50:16 - 01:08:03:10]
Sylvia
 Yeah. OK, I want to talk about your career and what brought you here. I love your story. I understand you were an engineering student who realized that you love the kitchen. You get involved in the culinary world.

[01:08:04:13 - 01:08:23:17]
Sylvia
 And I was seeing that you you were the Biltmore in Miami and I was like, oh, my gosh, I think I was there a few times while he was working there. But your career spans Miami. It spans Rome. It spans New York City. And here you are in Chicago. I know you were born in Chicago, but you're really from Cleveland, right?

[01:08:24:19 - 01:08:33:14]
Jonathon
 Yeah, exactly. I mean, I was born in McHenry. I lived here for years, sort of passively became a pubs and Blackhawks fan. But I grew up in Cleveland.

[01:08:35:06 - 01:09:14:00]
Jonathon
 And then as soon as I turned 18, I left and sort of my career started to take form, you know, as a as a Midwestern teenager, I got a job at a table. I got a job at a Tex-Mex restaurant and actually over a wood fired over a wood fired Mesquite grill. And that's kind of where I initially got drawn to the culinary field. You know, my my mother and my grandmothers were both great cooks. They were gardeners. I had a great respect for the frugality of the Eastern European Midwestern kitchen. But, you know, it took the experience of opening restaurants and sort of realizing what I didn't want for me to truly fall in love with the career. So

[01:09:14:00 - 01:09:27:19]
Sylvia
 what would you say for you? Which spot was the game changer for you? Were you decided not only am I good at this, but I want to go a thousand percent in this direction and eventually open up my own place?

[01:09:28:22 - 01:10:30:07]
Jonathon
 Yeah, I mean, I think that's a great statement. And I think there's two different things inside of there. I don't know. It took me a long time to to to be honest with myself and say you're good at this. Right. But early on, I did have an aha moment and I was working at a restaurant in Dayton, Ohio while I was going to engineering school. And I was kind of not enjoying my externship as it was, you know, programming autocad coordinates and sort of doing systems analyst stuff. And I was loving my culinary job at the time. And this this boss who I had, it was classically trained and a bit of a let's just put it in air quotes, old fashioned chef, a bit of a bit of a brutalizer came over to me one time and tasted a minion that I was making. And he said, you know, John, you are not that cooking. And I was just like, yes, chef, we chef. Thank you, chef. You know, but I didn't I didn't, you know, show the appreciation of the moment. But I was like, you know, right. You know what? Forget about it. I'm going to drop out of college and I'm going to go to culinary school. And that was sort of the next step I took was, you know,

[01:10:31:17 - 01:10:36:02]
Jonathon
 just leaving the traditional sort of system and going to culinary school. So

[01:10:36:02 - 01:11:40:18]
Sylvia
 your career takes you back home and you end up opening. Well, you end up working in Cleveland and then you end up opening Greenhouse Tavern and a few other spots, which wow. That was a restaurant that people still talk about today. In fact, I was at I was at the chef's garden Farmer Lee Jones in Ohio a couple of weekends ago. And I'm sitting at the table having dinner there. And people in Cleveland are very proud of you. And they're also kind of very attached. And they were saying, you know, how's Jonathon Sawyer doing? We used to love his restaurant and we were so sad when it closed. I know there's a lot of history behind all of this and I want to get into that with you. But tell me about the concept of Greenhouse Tavern because you guys did receive a lot of awards. It was during that time you became a James Beard winner. I mean, the list goes on and on. Sustainability was important to you. Farm to table was important to you. Tell me about your memories of Greenhouse Tavern in that spot.

[01:11:41:22 - 01:11:58:23]
Jonathon
 Yeah, I mean, I think I got to thank my two mentors who I had prior to it for the vision that that sort of brought the greenhouse tavern into, you know, into fruition. It was working for Charlie Palmer, you know, the pioneer of New American cooking and big farm supporter that he was in New York and Chef Michael Simon.

[01:12:00:00 - 01:12:09:04]
Jonathon
 Both chefs I sort of opened restaurants for and worked with and helmed and really learned a lot about what I loved about this restaurant world and what I loved about a good restaurant.

[01:12:10:16 - 01:12:54:08]
Jonathon
 And you fast forward a little bit and I'm having my first child and then second child. That's what ultimately left, you know, sort of allowed me to leave New York and move back to Cleveland. And I just was moved by this opportunity to sort of change the world or change the perception of a wasteful industry, even if it is just one address and one location. And that's where the idea behind the Green Restaurant Association, the GRA and the greenhouse tavern becoming the first certified green restaurant in the state of Ohio. And that was through the beginning of the building process and then part of sort of the sourcing process. And it was an annual third party audit that sort of allowed us to keep that, you know, accreditation.

[01:12:55:23 - 01:14:43:08]
Jonathon
 And I think it was kind of, you know, the idea was complicated back then in terms of how you execute it, but it's a fairly simple idea now. Like how do I take all of this, all these dollars that are coming in my front door and put as many of them in our backyard as we possibly can. And I think that there's items that we maybe take for granted now, but there was just the idea of making an all Ohio beef burger. Like it's the simplest thing, but there's a reason why burgers, french fry, pizza, these are the number one selling menu items in America for decades now. And it's because it's a comfort that some people look at and they think about, but there wasn't a way for me to source that beef in 2006. There wasn't an opportunity for me to say, no, no, I want the cows to be birthed here, raised here, slaughtered here, butchered here, and then delivered to my door. Right. The inline that entire process. I don't want them to be from Iowa and then processed in Kansas and then, you know, butchered in whatever little and shipped up by 90. You know, I somebody wanted to me in Cleveland. I want this entire thing to come here. So it was, it took a while. And I know I'm just talking about one menu item, but you can extend that throughout to the bakeries and to the vegetables. But, you know, once you have that system set up and once you sort of understand, you know, what quality control you're looking for, it makes it really easy to replicate that. And then in the biggest and most, you know, I think gratifying moments for me is knowing how many other restaurants were like, that's a good idea. I'm going to do that. Or how many other former cooks, sous chefs, chefs left me and were like, yeah, I'm just going to use DJ as well. And I'm going to do the same. You know, watching these farmers grow from zero employees and unmarked van to 15 to 20 to 30 to 50 employees and multiple delivery vehicles. That's the that was the whole goal. Right. That was the whole point.

[01:14:44:09 - 01:14:47:06]
Jonathon
 Besides being a place to meet and a place to make memories.

[01:14:48:07 - 01:15:10:06]
Sylvia
 Well, that's so that was 2008 that you guys opened and you're absolutely right. You know, 2008, the whole farm to table concept. I mean, you kind of really were in the forefront, which is why I think it was 2019 you were voted most important restaurant in the country by Esquire magazine because of what you were doing with sustainability and farm to table.

[01:15:12:00 - 01:15:35:16]
Sylvia
 So let's talk about what was going on in your life at the time because you're very now you are very active and very vocal about your struggles with sobriety, alcohol is whatever. So I want to talk about that because this was all going on at the same time. You're creating this empire of restaurants for restaurants in that area. What's going on in your personal life?

[01:15:37:05 - 01:17:00:07]
Jonathon
 Yeah, I mean, I think that there's complexity to be an addict and alcoholic and coming from a family that has many alcoholics, right? And you don't necessarily realize the complexity of your situation while you're sitting in it. And while I think from the outside, people can assume that this guy's rich and this guy's happy because he's got a book and he's got awards and he's got restaurants. It couldn't be any further from the truth. You know, I feel like, wow, there are moments inside of my life that are tons of moments that are filled with joy. They're almost all based around my family and my children and sort of the joy you get of being a parent. But in terms of myself, I couldn't even look myself in the mirror. The height of my addiction, the height of my depression, the height of my sort of personal sadness came at moments where people would probably look from the outside and say, this guy's got everything in the world that he wants. Right? This career success combined with the absolute opposite in terms of personal emotions and running from the feelings and imposter syndrome and you name it, I felt it. And I ran and I hid from all of those emotions in drowning them in drugs and alcohol. And it took me,

[01:17:01:12 - 01:17:27:16]
Jonathon
 you know, the ultimate rock bottom, right? After my, after my father passed, it got even more intense and it really took a six month period of sort of total, you know, annihilation for me to check myself in a rehab and spend 30 days away and then do an outpatient program for another 60 days to sort of find the happiness that I now find every day and find the opportunity that I find myself in every day where it is.

[01:17:29:00 - 01:18:19:23]
Jonathon
 I can be honest and say that like this is every morning I get up and I say my prayers and I read my book and I look myself in the mirror and I'm happier than I've ever been before. And I'm more present for my wife and my children and my employees than I ever have been before. And it's just through the grace of sobriety and reflection that I've sort of found that. And while I'm most certainly evangelizing now, I'm only talking for myself, right? There's a lot of people out there, you know, let's say 50%, 70% of the population that can handle alcohol and drugs in a recreational way that's fine for them. But there's a ton of people that cannot and are scared to talk about it and are scared of the stigma associated with alcoholism or addiction or depression or, you know, you name it.

[01:18:21:00 - 01:19:23:21]
Jonathon
 And I just kind of reached a point, especially with as we started Sylvia with 24 and 24, right? I didn't want this to be a part of my life I didn't share with everybody, right? I didn't want to be front facing one thing and sort of behind closed doors and other thing. I just wanted to sort of, I just wanted to be honest about it all and I wanted it to kind of be out there and, you know, most certainly some people look at it as a fault. Some people look at it as a superpower. But really the goal is like, is there a younger version of Jonathon Sawyer out there who now can have a sober hero to look up to? Is there a version of me out there that can look up and say, you know, I don't have to buy cocaine from my first kitchen manager at Hula Hands who will name Nameless in order to be cool to try to be on the opening team of the Nest restaurant. Right. Like I don't, I don't need to be a part of that. It's a cautionary tale, not a sort of guideline of how you become successful. And I feel like that's where the opportunity for me is.

[01:19:23:21 - 01:19:33:04]
Sylvia
 You know, I want to talk about this even more because it's a big issue in the restaurant world, but you were talking about when you hit rock bottom and your dad passed away. What year was that?

[01:19:33:04 - 01:19:41:20]
Jonathon
 That was that was 2021 or 2020. It was 2020 is when it started. 2021 is when it really,

[01:19:43:12 - 01:19:45:09]
Jonathon
 you know, so I'm 39 months sober now.

[01:19:45:09 - 01:20:25:10]
Sylvia
 I want to ask you about that too, because while you were in Cleveland, you have all like you said, you know, everybody's going, oh my gosh, this guy is brilliant. He has this amazing restaurant. He's won all these awards. He's rich. He's got this beautiful wife and two children. His life is perfect. And then all of a sudden the news comes out. Jonathon Sawyer is closing the greenhouse tavern. There's lawsuits that are being, I mean, all of a sudden you're on the front. You're a big deal in Cleveland. So when this starts happening, you make the news. There's lawsuits involved. They're saying bills weren't were not paid. Was this all happening while you were struggling with drug and alcohol addiction?

[01:20:25:10 - 01:21:40:06]
Jonathon
 I mean, yeah, there's a corollary for the two, but at the end of the day, we're just like millions of other businessmen in America, right? We just serve businesses. We didn't, we may have created a ton of great food, a ton of great memories, but we didn't understand and we never had the partnerships that allowed us to run a great business on the black and white sort of fiscal P&L front, right? In terms of allegations and lawsuits that happens. That's natural, right? Every employee was paid. Almost every single farmer was paid, especially the smaller ones. We made sure of that at our own at detriment. But we're a couple broadliners who are large multinational corporations who have millions and millions of dollars not paid in full. They most certainly weren't. That's what bankruptcy is there for businesses that make mistakes. And we most certainly did. I'm here, you know, I'm not here using drugs and alcohols. I'm here just to say I did what I did to get to where I am and I'm thankful for the person that I am today. And that's it, right? At the end of the day, you know, everybody from our president who's filed 27 times to your neighbor have used this opportunity to sort of restart their lives. And we most certainly did as well.

[01:21:40:06 - 01:21:44:08]
Sylvia
 This is a great place to take a break and we'll be right back.

[01:21:48:02 - 01:21:58:15]
Sylvia
 If you're enjoying supper with Sylvia, please like and share with family and friends and also leave a comment. We love and need your support. Thanks for listening to supper with Sylvia.

[01:22:03:09 - 01:22:06:05]
Sylvia
 So when you close your restaurant, let's see, is that 20?

[01:22:08:10 - 01:22:08:14]
Jonathon
 20.

[01:22:08:14 - 01:22:09:20]
Sylvia
 20, 20. Okay.

[01:22:09:20 - 01:22:12:19]
Jonathon
 So what? March of 2020 is sort of when it.

[01:22:12:19 - 01:22:16:18]
Sylvia
 Yes, I'm sure you remember that well. What was that like for you? That had to be devastating.

[01:22:18:00 - 01:22:31:23]
Sylvia
 I want you to go back in time, okay? Sure. And I want you to remember the day you made that difficult decision. I know it didn't happen in one instant because I know you were. This was a process. But when you take me back, what was that like to have to close?

[01:22:33:00 - 01:22:40:22]
Sylvia
 This restaurant that was your baby, your passion that had gotten such praise. And finally you had to shutter it.

[01:22:42:09 - 01:23:46:23]
Jonathon
 Well, I don't know if it's by the, I mean, I think that's simplifying it. I think that the writing was on the wall for 18 months, two years before. At the end of the day, I didn't come from money and I don't have money. So we leveraged the one good business in order to open three or four bad businesses around it. And the equity inside of that business that we had built over years, sadly just ended up going to the banks and the landlords of other businesses that failed. And when you talk about the closing of the greenhouse, there most certainly was a motion involved in it, but there wasn't an out there. There wasn't an opportunity or an outlet for that to live on that. That we hadn't sort of already explored, whether it was selling it to employees or new investor or partner here. I mean, the house of cards was stacked up so high that the writing had been on the walls for a while. So it most certainly was emotional and sad, but there was also a little bit of like disdain and I'm over it and I don't want to do it anymore. Right? I didn't want to,

[01:23:48:12 - 01:24:08:23]
Jonathon
 I didn't, you know, there was a moment that was like, of course, as you said, sadness, but there's also a moment where I was like, I'm, I'm good. But we did what we could here and I don't see, I don't see, I don't see an opportunity for us to continue it. And there really wasn't given where the banks were and where the landlords were.

[01:24:08:23 - 01:24:29:20]
Sylvia
 Well, I know that that's something you can, you know, look back on and be very proud about. I want to go back to, I want to go back to the drug and alcohol addiction. It's not something I want to harp on, but I know it's something that's very important to you because you announced on the show 24 and 24, I think you won $50,000 that you were going to use that money to help start a foundation.

[01:24:31:07 - 01:24:32:17]
Sylvia
 Tell me about that.

[01:24:33:20 - 01:24:49:23]
Jonathon
 Yeah. So we, we, I mean, listen, I wanted, as I said in the beginning here, it's really important for me to sort of not live two different lives anymore. Be honest with everybody and myself included in. When I won 24 and 24, I started the Sawyer Foundation to 501c3.

[01:24:51:00 - 01:26:12:01]
Jonathon
 Based on really eliminating the stigma and propagating the positive messaging of what this industry can be and doesn't have to be. So I know there's people out there and I know that there's people looking for help. And then that first step is the hardest step to take and whether it's figuring out how to take off time from your job or figuring out how to find the appropriate rehab facility or figuring out how to use FMLA to sort of protect yourself or unemployment or disability. Those are really complicated places, especially when you're in the heat of addiction. So we want to start to spread messaging that allows people to understand what their rights are and what their opportunities are in that first step and the second step is sort of re-intrigation to society and to the job. And that was a very trepidation time for me. I was really scared to go back to work in this industry when that was sort of freshly sober and we want to be a resource to people around the country inside of this industry that are looking to do that. And for me, I think that every show that I do going forward, we're going to donate a portion of those proceeds to the Sawyer Foundation and we're going to have opportunities for other people to sort of help us spread the good word and spread the messaging of it.

[01:26:13:11 - 01:26:30:00]
Sylvia
 What is it about the restaurant industry? I think you could probably say that about every business, but you guys kind of do have a reputation for drugs and alcohol, mental health issues. Some chefs have said to me that people who go into the restaurant world are kind of misfits.

[01:26:31:10 - 01:26:43:17]
Sylvia
 How would you describe that? We think of people like just recently, Anne Burrell's suicide, which was just a shock to everybody. Anthony Bourdain, the list goes on and on. What's going on in that kitchen?

[01:26:45:00 - 01:28:28:19]
Jonathon
 Well, I don't know. I mean, listen, I think if we had the answer, we'd be working on the solution, right? I think if we honestly knew why and what correlation of mental wellness or lack thereof and addiction to the restaurant industry, I think we'd be working out. I don't know. And I don't think it's binary like that either. I think most certainly Anne Sawyer, who I know really well and I was on shows with her. I've known her for... Burrell is really sad and Tony Sawyer is just as sad. And I think there's a part of Tony that unbeknownst to everybody, was very...wishes that he could have written a forward or a prologue to Kitchen Confidential to warn people that it was a cautionary tale about his life as opposed to a guidebook for how to become a cool guy who runs restaurants, right? And the salaciousness and the addiction in that book most certainly lionized the side of the industry that maybe got exemplified afterwards. I'm not saying it was part and parcel or causation, but I read that book and was like, "F***, this is what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to..." This is how I get to be one of my heroes. And I don't believe that's truth anymore. And I think a lot of us don't believe it's truth anymore. And I think back to the sort of cause or the why the industry has exponentially larger amounts of addiction and mental illness. I think that in order to be a hospitalitarian and someone who is anticipatory in their service, there's a different sort of drive inside of you. There's a different insatiable want for acceptance and attention.

[01:28:31:00 - 01:28:31:08]
Jonathon
 But,

[01:28:32:19 - 01:28:33:12]
Jonathon
 you know,

[01:28:35:05 - 01:30:24:13]
Jonathon
 external validation that not many people other have. And I don't, I can't say psychologically where that comes from for people, right? I can't say why you have this insatiable drive to make those single serving, multi serving guests love you and like you and thank you and publicly thank you. But I think that's a big part of it. And I also think it's an industry like a lot of the arts where you don't necessarily have to even graduate from high school in order to get a toehold in this career. And I think that's the beauty of the industry that I really love is like you can be someone who is ex-military or formerly incarcerated or a college graduate or someone who just has a DED and you can be successful in this field. And I think that's the part of the field that really needs to be appreciated, especially when we think about the future of jobs. It is a great place given the right opportunity to reintegrate people to the society and to the workforce and to really what like a melting pot of human beings can be, right? When you think about this digital world and how removed we're getting from our neighbors and our streets and our friends, this place, you know, right now there is 33 people behind me, all of them from different nationalities. Some of them, you know, certainly were majority minority restaurant, but we're all sort of working together as a team, cohesively, no matter what our beliefs are, religion wise or nationality as or sexual preferences, we're all back there making sure that the next 400 plates of food that will go out over the next three and a half hours, you know, are all part of somebody's great day. And I think that's the part that's really important.

[01:30:24:13 - 01:30:30:09]
Sylvia
 Yeah, diverse, diverse, big crowds. I have to say you're talking about your kitchen right now because kindling,

[01:30:31:23 - 01:30:39:23]
Sylvia
 tell people why they should come eat at your restaurant. I know during the weekdays it's happened like it's a hot lunch spot because everybody's downtown, right?

[01:30:39:23 - 01:31:45:20]
Jonathon
 Yeah. Yeah, man. I think there's a unique celebration of wood fire that happens here that doesn't happen anywhere else. And I think it's everything from sort of just enjoying a great burger as we started our conversation with to, you know, splurging a little bit and having some YouTube prawns from Skull Island. But the idea that we allow this, this white oak from Wisconsin to really be the narrative thread that ties everything together is really what kindling is all about. And, you know, for me, restaurants like kindling it's really important to sort of meet people where they are. And I think a lot of people come in and they have no idea that the chef of the restaurant is, you know, on Food Network or a James Beard Award winner. They're just like, I like the stakes here. And I think the inverse is also true. A lot of people who would never have come down here before are like, oh, it's the guy I saw on 24 and 24 or on Grudge Match last night. And I want to go down and see what his restaurant's all about. So I think the convergence of all this being in the second tallest building in the city and the icon that is the Willis Tower makes it all that much more fun.

[01:31:45:20 - 01:32:10:11]
Sylvia
 Yeah, it is a lot of fun. OK, speaking of which, let's have some fun. OK, I want to know. I'm just going to ask you some questions. It's not necessarily rapid fire, but, you know, you can answer them. You don't have to think too much. I want to know a few things about you. Number one, your favorite go to spot in Chicago, like, you know, you've had a long day at work over a week and you're like, OK, I'm going to my spot. What's your spot?

[01:32:11:11 - 01:32:18:07]
Jonathon
 My favorite place to go is on Saturday or Sunday morning, go down the Mitsuyo market. It's the Japanese market and Demichika.

[01:32:19:11 - 01:32:45:18]
Jonathon
 And they roll out all the great produce and like a little extra of like the imported, let's say, mushrooms or shoyus. And the place is packed and it's vibrant. And inside of that little food court or the Demichika, there's like 11 different individually themed stalls from Soba to Udon to Domburi to to Rachman to, you know, to Yaki Tori. And you order a little a couple of bites of food and then you shop for your groceries and you just it's totally immersive. Yeah.

[01:32:45:18 - 01:32:49:05]
Sylvia
 Oh, OK. I want to try that. OK. Best thing you ever ate.

[01:32:51:11 - 01:33:18:19]
Jonathon
 Oh, that's a really broad one. I'll say my favorite dinner experience I ever had is with Lamy Jean with my wife. When we were young, young parents, we were away from our kids for maybe only the second time. It was a meal we really couldn't afford. It was before they had a Michelin. I think there are two star now. But it was just a great tasting menu and I ended with rice pudding. So rice pudding is the formal answer. But the time and place with my wife in Paris in the fifth, Lamy Jean.

[01:33:18:19 - 01:33:24:12]
Sylvia
 That's nice. Ooh, I love good rice pudding. OK. One ingredient that you always have to have in your kitchen.

[01:33:26:05 - 01:33:41:21]
Jonathon
 One ingredient I always have to have in my kitchen is. Man, I would just say current, I'm going to stack your virgin olive oil. I mean, I think I always have at least five different ones in my house because I just kind of love it. But like the most premium, beautiful green gold that you can afford.

[01:33:41:21 - 01:33:46:17]
Sylvia
 OK. What food you absolutely hate or greedy you do not want your kitchen.

[01:33:48:02 - 01:34:16:23]
Jonathon
 Well, I have a taste of I think hate is a strong word. I don't like to use it even when it comes to culinary things. But I have an aversion to beef liver and really to this. There's this Hungarian sausage, if anyone has Eastern European lineage. It's called harka. It's it's a rice and lung and blood sausage that's cooked really hard. That's I would just all do respect if you enjoy it. It kind of reminds me of glue. So those two things I'm really afraid of.

[01:34:16:23 - 01:34:25:00]
Sylvia
 OK. Do you don't like eating glue? OK. So if you could cook, I'll actually ask you this. What is the idea for you of a perfect dinner?

[01:34:27:11 - 01:34:47:16]
Jonathon
 I mean, a perfect dinner for me has less about the food than it has to about who's there. And I just you know, I as long as my wife and my kids are there, the dinner is perfect. That's that's all I want. And I want no digital devices anywhere to be seen. Just conversation and a great roasted chicken or great fried chicken and caviar.

[01:34:47:16 - 01:34:57:08]
Sylvia
 Well, everybody has to follow you on on your Instagram because I love the interaction with you and your kids and your wife. Yeah, it's fun.

[01:34:57:08 - 01:35:08:17]
Jonathon
 Yeah, we kind of took the filter off this year. We're just like, I just think people want a glimpse in our home kitchen and see how we actually are. And you're not always going to find a recipe, but you're going to see some teenagers. Yeah, which is awesome.

[01:35:08:17 - 01:35:14:11]
Sylvia
 OK, if you could cook for anybody anywhere in the world, who would that be?

[01:35:15:11 - 01:35:39:01]
Jonathon
 Oh, if I could cook for anybody anywhere in the world, I would go with Ludovico Iannaldi, the concert pianist who's coming here to Chicago next month. I've been this is on my bucket list of concerts to see. I have listened to him for man, 20 years now. And I've just been dying as a former orchestra member and an appreciator of all art. It's just someone I would love to cook food for.

[01:35:39:01 - 01:35:42:20]
Sylvia
 Wow. Well, if he's going to be in town, you need to get your people to work on that for you, don't you?

[01:35:42:20 - 01:35:45:09]
Jonathon
 Yeah, fingers crossed. Prayers in the air.

[01:35:46:11 - 01:35:52:20]
Sylvia
 Oh, who would you say has been your biggest influence in your life, whether it be culinary world or just in general?

[01:35:55:02 - 01:36:04:08]
Jonathon
 I mean, I think in terms of culinary influence, it most certainly has to be Michael Simon. You know, my former mentor and dear friend and fellow sad Browns fan.

[01:36:05:08 - 01:36:18:23]
Jonathon
 We talk regularly. I use him for advice and, you know, I just genuinely love what he's done. I think in terms of the biggest influence on me, it's my wife for sure. I mean, she's the only reason I'm here today.

[01:36:18:23 - 01:36:26:06]
Sylvia
 Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about Michael Simon because he was actually in the 24 and 24 as well with you guys.

[01:36:27:08 - 01:36:38:21]
Sylvia
 So you said mentor and someone who's become a good friend. What is it about the two of you that you think enables you to have that closeness in so many aspects of life?

[01:36:38:21 - 01:36:50:20]
Jonathon
 Yeah, I mean, I think we, you know, we worked together in the early 2000s. I opened restaurants for him and with him and, you know, we maintain that friendship for a while.

[01:36:52:02 - 01:37:02:02]
Jonathon
 He really introduced me to Food Network early on. And I think that our Midwestern values and sort of upbringing have allowed us to sort of maintain that friendship.

[01:37:02:02 - 01:37:04:21]
Sylvia
 What do you guys do when you get together? What's fun about hanging out with him?

[01:37:04:21 - 01:37:14:09]
Jonathon
 I mean, I think we're both pretty funny people and you put the two of us in a room with our love of food and you just never know what you're going to get.

[01:37:14:09 - 01:37:16:03]
Sylvia
 Yeah, I love it.

[01:37:17:05 - 01:37:29:20]
Sylvia
 So tell me what's going on with your plans for the future. Obviously, kindling is doing well. Any other plans for opening other spots in Chicago or anywhere else? What do you've got going on?

[01:37:30:21 - 01:38:12:06]
Jonathon
 I think that's a great question. No, I mean, I think it's a great question. It's a very boring but very understanding answer. I've said no to everything for a long time. You know, I only have one restaurant not for lack of opportunity but for absolute want. And as I sort of learned from my mistakes in the past, I didn't necessarily have more happiness having, you know, multiple restaurants than I did having one. So just nothing, I'm going to say no forever. But there's a reason why for the past five years, I've never had more than one unit or one thing going on at a time. It's because I want to be present in my own life, present in my own space, present in my sobriety and around for my kids while they're still here.

[01:38:13:07 - 01:38:26:23]
Sylvia
 And when can people find you at Kindling? Because I know some, I went once and you weren't there and I was disappointed. So when's the best spot, when's the best time to find Jonathon Sawyer in the kitchen over the wood fire at Kindling?

[01:38:26:23 - 01:39:00:13]
Jonathon
 Yeah, I mean, I'm here every lunch and most of the dinners. I travel one week a month to do TV or food and wine festivals. And, you know, if you follow me on Instagram, you could probably see if I'm in the restaurant, you could DM me and I might be able to respond and tell you I'm going to be there. You can call the restaurant. A lot of people on the reservations when Chef Sawyer is there, when I coordinate with my team to make sure they know that I am. But chances are if you come down Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday for lunch, when we're the busiest that we are, you'll see me here.

[01:39:00:13 - 01:39:05:01]
Sylvia
 Yeah, yeah, I love it. And you've got your cookbooks that people can still get a hold of.

[01:39:06:19 - 01:39:13:19]
Sylvia
 As we wrap this up, I'm just wondering. So because I think that, like I said, you're very open and honest.

[01:39:15:06 - 01:39:26:16]
Sylvia
 And if you could give advice to anybody who, maybe not just in the restaurant world, but is also struggling with their own inner demons. You talk about mental health, depression,

[01:39:27:21 - 01:39:28:02]
Sylvia
 drugs.

[01:39:29:07 - 01:39:36:09]
Sylvia
 What would you say to someone in that position, someone who's listening now that maybe can relate to part of your story?

[01:39:37:12 - 01:40:04:23]
Jonathon
 Yeah, I mean, I feel like in moments, I felt like I was the only person who ever felt this way. Right. I felt like I was the only one. I was terminally individual and it wasn't until I saw help, professional help, and then the help of friends that I really understood that I'm not alone. And that there's a lot of people that have demons or addiction or, you know,

[01:40:05:23 - 01:41:07:03]
Jonathon
 a gigantic ego with zero self-esteem. You know what I mean? Like there's 8 billion people on the planet now. I don't even know the number, but you're not alone. And there's a bunch of people out there that want to talk to you about it. And one of the things that I really relish in this version of my life and myself is adult friendship. And every morning, no matter what, there's about 90 minutes where I'm making phone calls to friends, family members, fellow sober people, fellow chefs, just to maintain a sense of community that's outside of the digital world, outside of the confines of what we regularly do. And I found the greatest sort of joy and support of understanding friendship as a sober person, as opposed to the person I was before, who really believed that friendship was just transactional. What do they want from me or what can I get from them? And I really relish that. So reach out to your friends, reach out to your family members, and reach out to professionals because you're not alone and a ton of people want to hear from you and a ton of people care about you.

[01:41:07:03 - 01:41:33:04]
Sylvia
 That's beautiful. A great way to end this. And I want to remind everybody that you can find Jonathon at Kindling. I believe you're on another Food Network competition right now, which I'm sure you're not able to reveal how that one ends up. But at least we can keep an eye on you while watching. Those are always so much fun. So thank you so much, Jonathon. If you could leave us with any final words, what would that be?

[01:41:34:20 - 01:41:50:00]
Jonathon
 Yeah, Sylvia, thank you so much for having me. I just love having the opportunity to be honest and open and hopefully a little vulnerable for everybody and phone a friend, phone a family member when you're done listening to this and relish those friendships and relationships.

[01:41:50:00 - 01:41:53:18]
Sylvia
 Great advice. Jonathon Sawyer, CU at Kindling.

[01:41:54:19 - 01:42:37:15]
Sylvia
 This podcast is produced by Jennie Waters, original audio and music editing Donnie Cutting, social media and promotions, Iliana Blasdell. Thanks for joining us on Supper with Sylvia. We've loved sharing these conversations with you and we hope you've enjoyed listening as much as we've enjoyed hosting. This wraps up our second season. We're taking a break to get ready for season three and we've got some exciting plans to make it better than ever. But if there's someone you think would make a great guest and you'd love to hear from them, please let us know. We'd love to reach out. In the meantime, enjoy seasons one and two, share them with friends and we'll see you back here when we kick off our third big season.