Parental Alienation :Turning Pain into Purpose with Kindra Foley

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to another episode of Bent Not Broken. Heartbreak and trauma may feel like the end of your story, but here it's the beginning of a bold new chapter. I'm your host, Coach Deborah Griffiths, and this is the space where women rise, rebuild, and rediscover their purpose. Remember this truth. You are bent, not broken. Welcome. I am so happy to be speaking with my next guest. She is driven by a passion to help others. She's a strategic marketing enthusiast, a relationship builder, and an advocate to help end parental alienation. She's also a wife, mom, and stepmom. Please welcome Kendra Foley. Kendra's thank you so much for being on the show today. I'm so excited about what we're going to talk about. And although it's a sad subject in a way, it's so important because I'm sure not only have we both experienced this, but I'm sure many others as well. So welcome, first of all.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Good to see you.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

Yes, so happy we're connecting again.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Yes, absolutely. We need to connect more. So I'm thrilled. As we both know from our lives, we both have gone through divorce and we both experienced some what's known as parental alienation. Can you take me back to the beginning? You know, what was your divorce like, and when did you realize parental alienation was occurring?

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Great question. My divorce or separation started in 2018, and it was due to an affair that was had. Jealousy. Yeah. And the kids just get caught in the middle and they're so young. Their frontal lobe is not developed. So it's they don't even know it's happening. You know, their instinct is to love both parents. But if they're forced to choose, and given the circumstances that I went through, which I can go into, there's just no matching. And sometimes to be the better parent, you just gotta walk away.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

That's a hard pill to swallow.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

It is very much. So when did I realize it was happening? Probably a good year or so into it, there were false allegations of different things where he was trying to find things wrong with me, calling the cops on me all the time, calling the guardian of the lightum. Our divorce took over three years to settle. And so, you know, when he was calling and making all these accusations, I just kept kind of laughing it off, not realizing what was happening. As there were more accusations made, there was more hesitation in the court, right? Whether it was proven that it did or didn't happen, the children they never want to put them in the position where, well, it could have happened or it might happen, or you know, it might happen again, even though there was proven that there was nothing happening in our marriage before then. It's just the court does not want to get into that. So as soon as a restraining order or protection order is filed, that is basically where things start. And they always say, I actually interviewed an attorney that owns a very large firm. And he had said that that is basically the poison that just starts it. So if at all costs you can avoid a protection order that is valid, but really anybody can file it for anything anymore. And you include the kids, and that is the start of where it starts downhill. And so I had laughed that off. I was like, oh my gosh, one more thing. I gotta jump there, not thinking. And then as I experienced it, I start educating myself. I start talking, I start Googling, and I realize this is a whole thing that affects millions of Americans, and it's just so sad.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

It is so for our listeners, how would you define, or is there a legal definition of what parental alienation is?

SPEAKER_01 4:44

Great question. So there is a definition that you can look up. I will just give you how I define it.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

And estrangement is sometimes what people use. But if you are estranged from a parent, that is usually a decision you make as you are older, or maybe that is something that happened younger where there was abuse or something involved. But alienation involves a whole family. It can actually happen when you are currently married to someone. So if they are going against what you're saying for the children, you're not aligned in your marriage, that is alienating the child already. And so that can continue. So if you get think about getting separated or divorced, they just intensify that. And so alienation is really where the child is separated from a parent or a whole family for no really justifiable reason at all. And nobody can explain it.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

As you were talking, I flashed back into my own experiences, and I now see where very early on in the marriage, as the children started to become, you know, were born, I can see where the oldest one was being alienated against even his other siblings. And that's where I kind of see how that started very interesting. So, yes, and for our marriage, it's really important for the mom and dad, even before the kids come along, to be aligned in their parenting skills and their expectations. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Exactly. Yeah, because it can go sideways really fast. And alienation is more of a manipulative estrangement, might be they just don't know a parent, but alienation is very manipulative. A parent might know that they're doing it, and they might not even know that they're doing it, but it's just psychological. Several examples that I'll give is punishing a child for going to choosing to go to their parents' house, say, if you have a standard order on a Wednesday, and maybe that other parent will be planning something really fun. And so now the child has to choose well, do I really go see mom or dad? Or do I stay with the parent because now, you know, they're gonna go do something really fun when I'm supposed to be spending time with mom or dad on Wednesday night. And so there's a manipulation behind it. There's a psychological that the parent can use to almost have the child replace the spouse and feel sorry for them. And they feel like they have to fill that void of where the spouse was. So even if there's somebody else in a relationship with them, they'll still fill that void. They'll still say, You have to take care of me. I'll cry, you know, if you leave, and playing that versus being the adult, but being more of a friend. And as you can figure, a child is really young trying to figure out everything. So that is really pulling on their emotional strings, saying, Well, I have to stay home and take care of dad because he's really upset and he can't survive on his own. My son sat on his bed at my house and he said, I have to call and check on dad. And I said, Why? And he said, Well, because last week he fell in the store and passed out and hit his head, and we almost had to call the ambulance. And I was like, Really? And I didn't know what to say to that. So I kind of made light of it and I kind of joked. I said, Well, don't you ever worry about me, buddy? And he's like, No, mom. He was like, You have friends and you work out and you have a great job and all these things. And I'm like, Oh, so he knows I'm okay, but he has to go take care of the other parent.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

That is such a heavy burden to put on children. I'm curious as to what the ramifications for that child and those children that are being alienated. What are they going to be like when they themselves become adults and get into relationships? That has long-standing implications.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

You know what? And I think we have we now are aware of it. So we'll be able to measure that as we move forward. But I don't think we were aware of it before. And what I always thought is it was what we call deadbeat dads. Usually the dads were alienated, right? The moms kind of had them. And we thought, oh my gosh, they're paying child support, but they walked away from them. Well, I will tell you if you're going through alienation, it will tear you down emotionally, physically, financially. It just breaks you to your core. And so I can see now how if dads were fighting this battle, trying to fight for their children, that they either ran out of money or they emotionally just could not do it because it is such a toll on your body and your finances.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

So, how did that alienation affect your relationship with your kids, both emotionally and physically? What happened?

SPEAKER_01 9:47

So, my oldest definitely fell into the trap with his dad right away, you know, playing the game that I was always the bad parent. I'll tell you something else is I was the disciplinary parent. Well, no child, if they get a choice, wants to go with the disciplinary one that has rules, right? They want to go with the parent that is more fun. You know, choosing to be with his dad right away, but also recognizing that playing right into, you know, well, dad would cry and he doesn't know what to do it when we leave to come to your house and all of this. It has taken a long time. I still don't have a relationship really with my oldest son, who's now 18. So it's been about six years. My youngest son has been on and off for the past six years. I had 50-50 custody of both of them, but the youngest one fought as hard as he could. But I will tell you, you know, there were things that he was not getting Christmas presents like all the other four kids in the family were. He was getting nasty nose from the elf. He had to do everybody's laundry. He slept in the basement, he couldn't have ice cream or sweets or any sugar at night. So it was just a game that was played with them. And so he fought so hard that I remember this very vividly. We had been together almost after the initial protection order was filed, and I was separated them for them eight months. Then I got back reunited with him and had 50-50 for about a year. And uh it broke him so bad that finally he just came to me one time. He's like, Mom, I just can't go. I can't go anymore. And I said, I understand, buddy. I did not want to keep putting him through that psychological and emotional abuse. It wasn't worth it. And I knew he would come back. And so after five or six years, we're actually seeing each other again once a week and have our relationship again. It's hard, but it's it's good, it's where it needs to be.

SPEAKER_00 11:49

So that's so good to hear. I will share with you. My oldest one was really the one alienated from me, and it's taken a good 20 years and to for you know, through through the course of these years, just bit by bit by bit, just rebuilding that relationship. And you know, I I likened it, I want to say the three Ps. You have to be patient, you have to be persistent and consistent with trying to reach out with uh, you know, even if it's a weekly phone call or a weekly text or something, and then prayer. I had to just put it in God's hands. So that's that's it's taken a long time. I wish it never had happened, as I'm sure you know you do as well. But it's good to hear that it's things are starting to turn around in in your case.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Yeah, and I will agree with those three P's. That was said perfectly. I mean, persistence. I sent cards almost every week, and then I would send cards for birthdays, I would send text messages. Sometimes I was blocked, sometimes I wasn't. I would still send money or gift cards or things like that in the cards. I would send boxes of candy and different things, um, just trying to stay connected. And then patience is a big one. You had to be patient. And during that time, I will tell you when I first got my divorce, the commitment to myself was going to be I'm not going to say no to anything a friend's asking me to do unless it's harmful to my health or my body or going to get me in trouble. And so I went out and did anything that anybody asked me to. I did boxing class, which I had never done before. I did yoga, I took long walks, I got a dog, a puppy. There was all kinds of different things. And I truly do believe in that time where you're patient is also the time you rebuild yourself because you have to be ready, as you know, Deb, you have to be ready for them to come back. You have to be in a very good, stable relationship or by yourself and very secure. You have to be emotionally ready for them to come back, right? You have to be financially ready for them to come back because it's going to be tough. And so during that time, I really was very patient with the process and worked on myself. And then prayer, everybody said, Well, I'll pray for your, I'll pray for you. And I said, Don't pray for me, pray for my children, pray for my ex to soften his heart. And that's what I prayed. So you're right. I totally agree with the three P's.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

And it's not easy. It is not easy. There's times you want to put your fist through the wall because something is said and it's like, why? But uh again, you just have to take the high road at the end of the day. You do why do you think parental alienation is so misunderstood, especially by the legal professionals and the mental health providers?

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Yeah, so I think that the therapist and the mental health providers are quickly coming along. They're understanding a little bit more. The courts don't understand. When there's physical abuse, they can see that. When there's emotional trauma, they don't understand that. And it takes a long time to prove, and you have to get therapist and psychological reports and different things together to prove it. So it's just very hard to prove. As, and it really depends on your county that you're in. So, depending on certain judges, they really believe in it. They've gone to these seminars, they're learning. There's, I mean, just in the past five years, this has just exploded and people are learning more. I will tell you when I first went with my first therapist, it was kind of a waste of time because I sat with her and I would tell everything that's going on, and she wouldn't have any advice. And she would listen to me, but she's like, I just can't believe this is happening. I don't even know what to tell you. Like, you weren't helpful. Well, I can tell you then, like two, three years down the road, I went to a different therapist, and that therapist completely understood and led me in the right direction. And so it was just it's definitely being heard more.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

Well, that's good, and that's hopeful for anybody that is experiencing it now that there's more understanding, more education about it. It's still working with the courts and the law, which is gonna transition me to my next question for you, which is what motivated you to take your pain and turn it into advocacy?

SPEAKER_01 16:34

One of the therapists that I had over the years told me that sometimes helping others is the biggest therapeutic thing you can do for yourself. And so I felt surrounding myself with the same people that had gone through it and trying to make a change in the right way with those people that have gone through it. Speaking at the state house and trying to get our message out that this is really a problem and to take it seriously, right? Our lawmakers have to take this seriously. I felt as though that was helping me cope and helping, even if it didn't change for me, I was helping my children's kids, maybe, or my children that would go through it. And so that's what really drove me to make the change, is once I experienced it, it's so hard. And I am a very strong individual, I would say, that I knew God put it in my hands and and connected me with the right people for that reason. And that's what I needed to do.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

That's excellent. Can you talk a little bit about what some of the policies or laws are that you got behind and helped implement for change?

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Yeah, so actually, some of them are still working through. So there's a couple house bills that have been on the docket in Ohio for several different things trying to pass more of a shared parenting 50-50 equal rights. So that is not just right now, we have standard order. We have, you know, when parents are together, we think we don't think anything of it when they divorce and one gets standard order. Well, you just get visitation with your children. That's horrible, right? It should still be 50-50 as much as you can work it out. And then the parent should decide what that schedule is best with the kids because that's their family, not the court. You get court involved, you get a guardian of lightem involved. They have absolutely no idea. And so trying to change that in Ohio, as we change those laws or we try to, representatives will um, and so you have to get a bill passed pretty fast, or at least to the Senate, right? Through the House to the Senate, all within the time frame, usually before they take a summer break, because then when they come back, it stalls out and different things. You have different organizations that are presenting different bills. We even had one bill that was competing with ours at the time. It was actually proposed and run by lawyers by the Bar Association. So, what do you think that's gonna benefit? The Bar Association doesn't want to see more lawyers make money in their pocket. And so I even became pro se at that point. And I made so much progress for a year and a half being my own attorney and not spending all that money. And you can actually do it, and it's more influential because the judge is hearing directly from you, or the magistrate's hearing directly from you versus an attorney that will tell you the magistrate that I had likes to just settle in the middle. So if you can just agree with the attorney, you will save yourself a lot of money, but you have to know whatever you're gonna ask for, you're gonna land somewhere in the middle. So over-ask and hopefully land somewhere where you want to. But with all that being said, now there's a new bill. So that bill's out of the house. And so now there's a new bill that's proposed that we're looking at that we might back. But I work very closely with the National Parents Organization, and there's usually one in each state. I was asked to be on a movie, We the Parents. And so that's on YouTube, if you look it up. So I was actually on that. I made some friends that are changing laws in Texas because some of actually you'd be surprised, but some of the biggest alienated parents, the largest group is military. Because if they come back and get divorced, the court sees them as, well, you haven't been around your children for six months or nine months or a year or two years. And so you haven't seen them. So they have a relationship with this parent. So we're going to give them full custody. And so that's what happens when they get divorced. And so I have several friends that are in the military that's fighting to change those laws too in California and Texas. So the gentleman in Texas did a great job at getting it passed, and now he's working at getting it passed in other states as well.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

Wow, that's amazing. I never really thought about the military being so impacted that way. And it's horrible because they sign up, they serve our country, they go overseas, they're deployed, and then they come back. Not only are they dealing with the aftermath of their deployment, mentally, physically, and all that, then they're dealing with the aftermath of a divorce or family issues, and then it's like the rug really gets pulled out from underneath them. That's that's so sad. It is. Um, looking back, what would you tell another parent who is just beginning to experience alienation, where they should start and what they should not do?

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Oh, I would say looking back, educate yourself. There are lots of books out there. There are lots of people, there's a lot of advocates you can reach out to and getting help. If you just do a Facebook search on parental alienation or a Google search, you will find so many people out there now that is talking about it. Just even in support groups, right? There's Facebook support groups, there's calls on Zoom that they do across. The U.S. is a support group. So get yourself surrounded with the people that's gone through it. Secondly, I would read Amy J. Baker's books. She has several out there for parental alienation. It will help you understand a little bit more of the psychology of what's going on in the child's mind and also in the other parent's mind. And so Amy Baker is fantastic at just explaining it because it's not the child's fault, even though you will think to take it out on the child or blame the child, but they're really just repeating what their other parent is saying. Sometimes, even if they come to your house, it might take them a day or two days to kind of decompress from that other parent. And you got to let them do that. Do not get defensive. Do not play into the whole game because that's what the other parent wants you to do. Always be the bigger person, always be more understanding. Never, you know, there's certain things you say in alienation and certain things you don't to the child, right? So sometimes you might, they might say, Well, I remember you did this or you did this. Well, you can just say, I'm sorry that you remember it that way, but that's not the way I remember it. Or I'm sorry if you felt that way, or things like that. So just so you're talking to them and understanding their feelings, but yet, you know, leaving room for that apology and working through it, I think that's the biggest thing looking back is I was so defensive. I was so hurt for a year or two. I was so mad, and I didn't have the education behind it. I didn't know how to handle my children or my ex. So, Amy J. Baker, there's like lots of psychological books out there. That's what I would recommend. But the National Parents Organization is this is very high on their list to get some bills passed.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Excellent. So, how are things today with your children? And what does healing look like for you now?

SPEAKER_01 24:03

That's a great question. So, healing for me started from breaking down completely all the way. And it took a little while, right? And I would have days of just crying so much. And I think I shared with you I couldn't pick myself off the floor. And then there would be days that I would be okay. I think I actually lost a job because of everything that I was going on, and that's typical in alienation because you're so involved in it and it just consumes you. So I had to set boundaries for myself. When I got my new job, I was like, I'm going to work my job eight to five. And then after that, I'll look at the emails. I'm not going to check my personal email from my attorney. I would even silence any text messages from my ex for that time. And then afterwards, I would turn those on so that I can focus on that. So it did not distract me. So I set boundaries. I also set boundaries saying, okay, in order for me to heal and be in the right place, I need to educate myself. I gave myself time to be by myself, go on vacation by myself, eat dinner by myself. Because the whole time you're going through this, I think the hardest thing for me that I didn't see coming was trying to educate my family on it. And so my family was asking questions. Why do they think we don't love them? And why, you know, if I try to text, you know, your son that I'm getting harassment calls or the sheriff's calling me saying, stop harassing them. And, you know, they just didn't understand it and what happened. And so then you have to go to your family and explain that. And so that was probably the biggest toll on me is I could understand it, but I couldn't get them to read my books. Eventually my mom did. And so now we're to a really good point where my family understands it. They understand where the children were and how they need to come back into our lives and what that looks like. And we are taking it as the child leads it, not as we lead it. And I'm also working very closely with my ex. So I'm not defensive, I don't get mad. It's very kosher. I forgave him for everything that he did. And I think that was because of my faith and prayer. And so, and you truly do have to forgive. You could say I forgive, but you truly do have to forgive and let that anger escape and release. So, where things are at today, I am again still not talking to my oldest child, but my youngest child has come back around and he is with the family. And even last Sunday, we had a family day for about eight hours and we had dinner, and it was absolutely great. So he got to meet his cousins that he had never met, that's one and three years old. And so we are reconnecting. He was sharing his toys that I had kept for him. He went to the basement and got some of his toys and shared with his cousin that was one. So that was really neat to see them played together. So I got a picture of that. So I'm very blessed. I'm happy where we are, and I will take any time with him that I can get and be a part of their lives.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

I love what you said about the boundaries. And that's so so true because you still have life, still happens. You know, you still have to go to work, you still have to take care of yourself. You there's bills to get paid. So, yeah, set set those boundaries because it's too easy to let those emotions in and totally distract you and take you away from really what you need to do. That's a great point. So thank you for being on the show today. We've really learned a lot. Can and I'll put this in the show notes. You know, any information on that parental alienation organization that that you can share, that would be great. I is there a website you know right off the bat.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

Yeah, I think it's npo.org. Okay. I work with the one in Ohio quite a bit. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

There's national. And I'll put references to Amy's books. So I think that that would be good. And again, thank you for sharing your story. I'm encouraged by what the progress that I've seen made in your situation. And you know, there's hope, and that's what I want to leave the listeners with there's hope. As hard as it is that you're going through all of this, it does pass. May take some time, but it does pass. So thank you again, Kendra. Really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

You're very welcome. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

Thank you for listening to today's episode of Bent Not Broken. I hope that this episode reminded you that even through life's toughest moments, you are bent, not broken. If this message inspired you, please share, rate, review, and subscribe, as it helps us reach more women who are ready to rise and rebuild. And until next time, keep living bold and walking in your purpose.