The Global Recovery Plan for Oceanic White Tips: A Deep Dive with NOAA Scientists

0:00 We have another wonderful bonus episode here on the Beyond Jaws podcast. We're going to be talking to John Carlson and Chelsea Young from NOAA discussing the recovery plan for the oceanic white tip. This is an interesting episode. We're going to dive into the science, into what a recovery plan really looks like, and why are they looking at a global recovery plan with the oceanic white tips when they're from the US. So it's going to be an interesting conversation. We're going to talk about it on today's episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast, the bonus episode. Let's start the show. In the early to mid 1900s, the only thing people knew about sharks was that they bit people from time to time. Some scientists started to get to know more about the larger sharks, studying their life histories and their fisheries. As the field grew, so did the diversity of fields within shark science. Public interest in sharks grew exponentially as a series of movies called Jaws piqued the people's fear and curiosity for these sharks. More information was revealed about these mysterious animals as the shark science field grew. From exploration to discovery to genetics and ecology, the Beyond Jaws podcast will introduce you to shark scientists of the American Alasma Brain Society and their work to help you better understand these wonderful species and take your knowledge Beyond Jaws. Hey everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast, a bonus episode today. I am your co-host, Andrew Lewin, here with my other co-host, Dr. David Ebert. Dave, this

1:30 is about oceanic white tips. What do you know about Well, there's a lot of concern, a lot of areas of the world where the populations have declined by, you know, 90, 99% in some areas. And so it's probably not as well as we'll find out today about as And even though it's a concern in the U.S. waters, you get into international waters beyond national boundaries of national jurisdictions, you talk to other countries, other oceanic areas where the populations have been severely impacted. And so this plan they put together is actually a global plan with the major ocean basins looked at in different areas. It's fascinating how they go to go through. We'll talk about the process, what they do, why they came about to do this, do this, why it involved ocean, why they did oceanic white tips and some of the research that they've been doing. And so people get a little bit of a peek behind the scene on how the process works with like a NOAA fisheries and some of these organizations. And I think talking about some of the international aspects of it. too, was Yeah, absolutely. I think this is going to be a very, very fun episode to be able to talk about. So here is the interview with John Carlson and Chelsea Young talking about the recovery plan for the oceanic white tips. Enjoy, and we'll talk to you after. Hey, John and Chelsea, welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast. Are you ready Thanks for having us. Welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast. We

3:01 have a special bonus episode today. It's such a big show. We have to have two people on to talk about it. Today we have John Carlson and Chelsea Young, both with NOAA Fisheries, who recently completed a conservation and management recovery plan for the oceanic white tip, Carcharhinus longimanus. It's a species listed under the Endangered Species Act, and it's also listed under CITES Appendix 2, as well as several other conservation and management organization protocols. John is a research fishery biologist with the National Marine Fisheries Service in Panama City, where he started as a graduate student in the 1990s. After completing his doctorate in biological sciences from the University of Mississippi, he took a full-time position with the Southeast Fishery Science Center in Panama City.

3:43 His research involves biological and analytical research relating to population dynamics in support of the stock assessment of sharks, but he also conducts research towards the recovery of endangered elasmobranchs. John serves on numerous committees nationally and internationally, and has an extensive publication record, and collaborates with numerous colleagues at universities, state agencies, and private institutions. He enjoys working with students and has supervised graduate students as a committee member, and he's mentored countless undergraduate interns, such as Megan Whitten and Ivy Barrymore, who were both recently on the podcast. Chelsea, who also works for the NOAA Fisheries, but she's based out in Honolulu, Hawaii, where she oversees the recovery planning and rulemaking for Threatening Endangered Marine Species under the U.S. Endangered Species Act. Her educational background includes a bachelor's and a master's degree in marine affairs and policy from the University of Miami's Rosensteil School of Marine, Atmospheric, and Earth Science. And she's been, has 15 years experience in marine conservation arena with a special interest in alazobranchs. She also serves on the regional vice chair for the IUCN shark specialist group along with John Carlson. And John and Chelsea, welcome to the show today. Thank you so much. Thank you, Dave.

5:04 So, wow. I can't believe it. Awesome. Uh, so we, uh, briefly before we get into the, uh, on the, on the, on the recovery plan you just produced, could each of you tell us just a little bit about your background, how you got Sure. So I grew up in South Florida near Fort Lauderdale on the East Coast. And so my whole upbringing was on the beaches there and in the marine environment. I became a scuba diver at 14 years old and just always enamored with all of the wonderful marine life that Florida had to offer. And I knew from a very young age that I wanted to study marine science and work towards that.

5:47 Going to the University of Miami, I got into the marine affairs and policy field, which is a little bit broader, looking at different policy issues and management as opposed to being an applied research scientist. And I went to graduate school there as well. I actually worked on corals in my master's work. But it wasn't until I actually got hired with NOAA Fisheries that I started to work on petition responses under the Endangered Species Act for various elasmobranchs. So basically we got a number of NGOs or environmental groups that think that sharks have some problems and they want NOAA fisheries to take a look and see whether or not they warrant federal protection under the Endangered Species Act. And I worked on a whole host of those petitions actually when I was in Silver Spring, Maryland at our headquarters office. But even before I started working on sharks with Noah, I've always been incredibly fascinated by them. I watched all kinds of National Geographic documentaries on sharks when I was a child, and Eugenie Clark, and Sylvia Earle were my, you know, just massive, you know, inspirational women in that field. And so it's, yeah, that's kind of what led me into going into this field.

7:05 Yeah, real similar situation. Not growing up in Florida, but growing up in Connecticut, You know, I was on the water before I could walk. I think, you know, my dad had a boat and we were on the ocean all the time and just became enamored with the ocean and, um, just kept, you know, pursuing various fields. And it was, it was kind of funny when, you know, I've done media people before and everybody's like, Oh, did you want to be Jock Bustow when you grow up? I'm like, no, I want to be Matt Cooper. So, you know, kind of one of those things and just kept building. Actually, when I did my master's, it was on little tiny winter flounder about the size of, you know, between my fingers. I did that for my master's work, but I always had that interest in sharks and elasmobranchs. And I was lucky enough to work under Glenn Parsons at the University of Mississippi after I finished my master's.

7:57 And it was just one of those kind of, you know, serendipitous kind of situations where I ended up working with Glenn and working at the Panama City lab for my dissertation. And everything kind of came together where I ended up, you know, still studying sharks, which, you know, generally doesn't happen to me. You do your dissertation stuff on one thing and end up doing another. But like I said, it was just, you know, luck of the draw, you know, that I ended up doing work and then. At the same time, I was finishing up my dissertation and Rick Cortez recently got hired as one of the population analysts for sharks in the Southeast Pacific Science Center in NOAA where that worked. And he was, you know, of the opinion that, you know, look, if we want a shark program, I need, we want John in here too. And it just turned out that I ended up in that program. So one of these very, you know, issues, you know, that just kind of like everything Yeah. You're one of the few guys that actually went Were they able to stay in the shark field, actually going from your PhD into working there at NOAA? Because most people have to go through this long, winding road to usually get back into doing the shark field, so you're definitely Exactly. That's exactly what I tell a lot of the interns and graduate students that I mentor. It's like, don't expect to work on sharks. It was just pure serendipity, timing, everything that ended up doing something. Ironically, when I was finishing up my PhD, I was applying for postdocs. I actually had a postdoc opportunity in the University of Washington to

9:27 do CBERTS, so it was one of those things where That's good. It's interesting to hear about your background there. John and I have known each other a long time, so I know a little bit about that. Go Oh yeah. In the Amazon. The Amazon, yeah, that's right. We had our infamous Amazon with the pink dolphins and everything else, where we did not do any bird watching, if I recall correctly. So why don't you, how did the whole, so obviously you guys are both involved with the Endangered Species Act, and most of us in the field know that Oceanic white tips are a species considered vulnerable. But how did that come about of all the different species you could have picked up Yeah, I can answer that. So generally, to get this process started under the U.S. Endangered Species Act, there's really two ways that can happen. One is that no officiaries can be petitioned by a third party, like an NGO or non-governmental organization or environmental group or any individual really can send in a petition to us to ask us to look at the status of the species. Or we can self-initiate, but oftentimes we just don't have the capacity or resources to be able to initiate what we would call a status review of a species on our own. We're

10:58 usually being pretty reactive to external requests or petitions. In this case, we got a petition from a non-governmental organization asking us to take a look at the status of oceanic white tip sharks. And usually when people think of a petition, they're thinking of a letter with a bunch of signatures on it. And in this case, it's really more of a biological report. It has to have a lot of substantial scientific information and data for us to consider. in order to go forward with what we would call a formal status review of the species to determine whether or not it meets the definition of threatened or endangered as laid out by the Endangered Species Act. So that's initially how this started. I think it was submitted to us in 2015 or 2016. I can't remember the exact year. But when we got that petition and we looked at it, we said, OK, yeah, there's enough here for us to take a really close look at this and see whether or not the oceanic white tip needs to be What do these, what does this petition look like? Does it have to have a certain amount of signatures on or is it more of just a letter from the organization saying, you know, here's a case, a use case to Yeah, it's definitely not, you know, the typical petition that we think of with signatures. It's just, it's basically, it's got to have some certain requirements laid out in our regulations requesting what action it is. And, um, But basically, it's like I said, it's a biological report. So they go through the demographics of the species, population status, the threats, whether or not current existing regulations are protective enough, and going through all of these factors that we lay out in the

12:32 Endangered Species Act, that they have to meet these criteria in And generally, what happens from Chelsea's you know, when she was in headquarters, they generally, her office would send out a request for scientists to be part of the review process of the SAS to determine whether or not. And so, you know, they had sent, they would send out, you know, a letter or email to the Northeast, especially all the different science centers from the Hawaii to the Southeast and the Northeast, requesting scientists, you know, work with Chelsea and her colleagues, because this is a policy issue, but it's also a science issue. on evaluating the information that's available. And Chelsea and I had worked previously together on the Thresher Shark ESA petition. And Chelsea and I had a really good working relationship together. And when when the petition came out, I was like, yeah, I'll work with Chelsea on that. So. But Now, you talked about this start like in 2015. So is it this pretty typical to take like nine, 10 years So the initial process was started, I believe, in 2015 or 2016 when we got the petition. That process is just for listing the species to begin with. So we have to go through this whole status review process. We have about a year to make a decision whether or not to propose a species as threatened or endangered first. And then that

14:02 proposal has to go out for public review and comment. Then we have another year to finalize that listing determination after incorporating all of that information that we got from the public and peer reviewers and things like that. So this listing didn't actually happen until 2018 is when we actually listed oceanic whitefish finally as threatened. Then we started commencing the recovery planning process. And, you know, with recovery planning, we want to make sure that we're including you know, lots of different people, different expertise. We had a number of scientists that we brought together in a series of workshops that we did both in Miami, Florida. to kind of cover the Atlantic portion of the range in the United States, and then also in Honolulu, Hawaii, to cover the Pacific range of the species. And we brought together fishermen, environmental organizations, academic experts, researchers, all kinds of folks to give us input in how to develop this plan. So that took a little bit of time as well. And then we formulated the draft recovery plan based on a lot of that input, which came out I think a couple years ago, trying to think of when the draft recovery plan. And then from that process, you know, again, it goes out for public comment and review.

15:17 incorporate all of that, and then we can finally adopt a recovery plan. So it does take quite a bit of time from, you know, a listing to getting a recovery plan in place. We are, as an agency, trying to shorten that time frame. But especially for a species like this, where it's globally distributed, there are lots of different threats and factors going into it. There's a lot of information Yeah, and one thing I should say, because I've worked on recovery plans for smalltooth sawfish, and You know, most of the small-to-cell fish recovery plan, I mean, that was very, you know, located because the species was only proposed for listing in, you know, in the U.S. waters. But, you know, kudos to Chelsea, you know, because it was an internationally listed species, you know, she organized workshops, as you said, in Honolulu and in Miami. And we brought in international people. We brought in people from IOTC, from various international organizations.

16:15 We brought in Shelley Clark. Mariana Colletti. I mean, different people. we wanted to make sure that we covered the gamut, not just focusing centrically on the US perspective, but wholly on the global perspective, which may have taken the process a little longer. But in the end, because, you know, Chelsea organized all these workshops, we had a view of a variety of scientists and policymakers from I got to ask you, how does that work when you're dealing with like, it's one thing to be doing a policy for in US waters, when you take it globally and obviously you're running the whole gamut in terms of countries from developed countries to developing or very, you know, relatively poor countries. How does that, and especially you have this global species, how, how does that process work trying to get all of these different countries It's not easy, that's for sure. And I think, you know, one thing, and John, you know, you can chime in from your perspective, too. But I think what, what we didn't want to do was try to reinvent the wheel too much. And so in order to kind of break down this global species into kind of more manageable pieces.

17:31 We did identify what we call management units for oceanic white tip sharks, and basically they're delineated based on the boundary lines of regional fishery management organizations. So we have the Atlantic Management Unit that falls under ICAT, the Indian Ocean Management Unit that falls under IOTC and so on and so forth with WCPFC, the Western and Central Pacific Fisheries Commission. Sorry, I apologize for any acronyms to the listeners. We're rife with them in this field. and then the Eastern Pacific as well. So from there, we kind of tried to lay out all of the different things that we would want to accomplish in those areas for recovery of the species based on what we knew already that were happening in those different regions of the world. So we didn't really break it down country by country because that would just be, it would be just two in the weeds and not really helpful, but looking at broader actions and then on the ground activities that we could do in these different management units for the species, depending on what threats it's facing, and the different partners we would have to try and reach out and collaborate with in those different management units. And then also working through those existing international mechanisms like the RFMOs, like CITES, like CMS, Convention on Migratory Species, and things like that. And John, you can totally add on, because you've got so much experience in the international arena. on how we've tried to bring in those various mechanisms to help complement

19:05 Yeah, and I mean, the follow on Chelsea, I mean, there was just, I totally agree with what she had said. And just, you know, no, there was so many different international players in this development of the recovery plan. You know, Chelsea and I wanted to make sure that we had everyone involved from the get go when we were developing you know, the criteria for recovering oceanic white, and you know, like she said, you know, it's just the RFMOs involved. They have their own set of management regulations, you know, oceanic white, this isn't on CITES, this isn't on CMS. So we were trying to, you know, encompass all those different lines of thinking and, you know, thoughts as No, he brought up a thing, Chelsea, you have these areas beyond international jurisdictions. basically in international waters. How does that and this obviously this is a species that occurs probably largely in international waters How does that work? So I guess what I should have started this whole thing out with is that a recovery plan under the Endangered Species Act, it's really a guidance document. It's not a regulatory action. We're not mandating that anybody do these things. This is basically a blueprint for how we would like to recover the species so that it no longer needs the protections under the Endangered Species Act. So we're basically trying to get it from, you know, it's listed as threatened, we want to get it to a place where we don't need to have it listed anymore. So this is

20:36 an outlined guidance document showing how we think we can get there. So it's for anybody around the world, any of these organizations, they can pick it up, look at what we've outlined there and, you know, if we've identified them as a potential partner or not, anybody can pick it up and decide like, okay, we can do this, like we've got funding, we can we can do this project or, you know, or use it as a resource to support something that they're already trying to do, which we have taken some of this to the Western and Central Pacific Fisheries Commission, for example, and say, hey, this is a, you know, priority in this recovery plan. or as a source to get funding for projects that are listed as high priority. So it's not something that we're saying, hey, you countries that are fishing in this area, you have to do this. We don't have the authority to mandate anybody outside of the United States do any of these things. But it's just something that's out there. It's to help raise awareness. And it's to give folks that are trying to do some of this work, some ideas of ways that, you know, the United States, anyway, thinks that this So as a part, within U.S. waters, is some of this actually implemented? Is some of this stuff to be sort of like, as you kind of, I think, alluded Yeah, I think that's one of the ideas and that was a lot of the feedback we got from our workshops was like, the U.S. is definitely going to serve as an example to the rest of the world for our

22:08 management and our policies. And John, you know, can speak a lot to you know, the management that we have in the Atlantic that has been really successful for a number of species or just our fisheries management anyway that has served as a real good example for the international community. And one thing that I will say that did happen as a result of this plan when we were in the draft phase, something we implemented in the United States was completely prohibiting oceanic white tips in all fishing gears in the Atlantic. Originally, it was just for pelagic long lines and then As we were coming up with this recovery plan, we said, no, we need to really prohibit them in all years. And that was something that came, that regulation came as a result of us No, I didn't know Chelsea if you wanted to mention the Wire Leader Initiative in Hawaii. I mean, this was... definitely something where industry saw what was coming and they had the foresight to work with NOAA fisheries and hopefully this will be carried. I'll let you, because that's something Yeah, that was just another management measure, regulation that came out from our office here in Hawaii regarding the change in gear to help increase post-release survivorship of oceanic white tips. This is kind of a combination of you know, things that we had been talking about for recovery. One of the things that we had in the plan was investigating different gear types to help with at-vessel and post-release mortality. And eventually, our fishery here, we mandated

23:42 a change from wire leaders to monofilament to help with, you know, bite-offs and sharks being able to get off the line more easily than if they were trying to, you know, be be caught with a wire leader and most likely have a higher post-release mortality from that. So that was something that also kind of came about in conjunction with us talking about recovery actions and things we need to do in the United States. It was a complementary action So this guidance document, when it's done, you enacted it through NOAA, through the government. Is that what you do? You provide this guidance document to other governments so it's more implemented if they decide so by Governments and not say nonprofit I would say anybody can take it and run with it We definitely are, you know showing this as this is a yes. It's a US government product. It's a Noah product It's being done through the requirements of the Endangered Species Act. It's something that is we're supposed to be doing for any species we list under the ESA, we're then required to develop a recovery plan, unless we think it won't provide a conservation benefit, which is a pretty low bar. But as far as you know, having it be used by other governments, you know, we certainly, we let folks know that We're doing this. We try to get it out, get the word out as much as possible. But there's a ton of different actions and activities within the plan that are geared towards nonprofits or NGOs or

25:13 other research organizations that, hey, if you've got funding to take a look at this particular problem, go for it. You know, we've Has there been much? I mean, it's funny. I mean, even though I'm on the West Coast here, I'm more familiar with the stuff. Maybe it's because I know and John and stuff that goes on in the Atlantic. But has there been much done with oceanic white tips out in Hawaii? And as far as any research goes, anybody looking Yeah. There's actually a program in Hawaii called the Hawaii Community Tagging Program, which was started by a colleague of ours, Dr. Melanie Hutchinson, who was formerly with NOAA. She's now with the IATTC. Inter-American Tropical Tuna Commission. Am I getting that acronym right? Sorry, guys. So, yeah, they've been doing a lot of work in Hawaii with satellite and acoustic tagging. I know, John, you've worked with and talked to Melanie a lot about that. You could probably give more details on the science side. But yes, there's been a lot of work. I would say not before that. There may be some tagging done, but there's a lot of information gaps.

26:25 Yeah, I mean, the work that Melanie was doing out in Hawaii was, you know, getting a lot of information on post-release survivorship, because actually the Western Central, again, we're tongue-tied, Western Central Pacific Fishery Management Council, Commission, no, not council, commission. Yeah, it's the only one that's done a full stock assessment for Oceanic Whitetip Shark. None of the other RFMOs have done a full-on stock assessment for Oceanic Whitetips. And the questions that Chelsea referred to earlier was, they are prohibited on all the RFMOs. They have to be released. But the question is, when they're released, how many survive. So the work that Melanie was doing out in Hawaii was instrumental in providing some of the first information that we could use in the recovery plan, but also in the WCPSC stock assessment on when, you know, the stock is, you know, determined to be overfished. We have, we do projections, you know, and how long is it going to take given certain situations. And this was a big question is, you know, if they are prohibited and they have to be released, you know, Are they released and then just swim to the bottom and die? Or are they making it?

27:41 So Melody's original work was very instrumental in helping us formulate the recovery plan, but was also very instrumental in helping us determine the projections for stock assessment. Because when the stock assessment was done, some of the scenarios that were done is saying, okay, 20% survived, 40% survived, 60% survived. And then how long is the population going to take to recover given these various scenarios? So Hawaii did one of the, I've been trying to, and we're starting that work in the Atlantic, but definitely the work that Melanie did So do you have benchmarks now set up in this plan? Timelines Yeah, what we did, Dave, is we set up a series of scenarios, recognizing that we may not have a full-on stock assessment, population assessment for each of the management units that Chelsea mentioned.

28:44 We set up a series of recovery criteria based on some alternate scenarios. Obviously, the panacea is going to be a full-on stock assessment, but we may not have the data for that in the Indian Ocean or the Atlantic Ocean, or even now that they're prohibited, it becomes a little bit more of a challenge because we don't have tech information anymore because there's no landing. So, you know, Chelsea and I set up a series of scenarios based on a level of criteria, you know, starting off with a stock assessment. Okay, we have a stock assessment. We want the population to reach this level in so many years based on the biological parameters of the species. If that's not available, we go to the next level. Okay, if a stock assessment is not available, then we want to look at trends in abundance. If the trends in abundance, like we did for the IUCN, Dave, you know very well the the methodology, JARA, that we did for all the different IUCN assessments, we can potentially use that as a tool to assess the status of the species. If that's not available, well then we look at another set of criteria. This is actually something that Enrique Ortez came up with when we were working at one of the workshops, is looking at different threat levels.

29:59 You know, given the threat levels is this, you know, given the fish mortality is this, and the biological productivity of the species, what does the threat level need to be reduced so the population can recover? So we went through, Chelsea and I went through a series of like kind of a ladder structure of this is the top, but if we don't have this, let's go to this. If we don't have this, let's go to this. If we don't have this, let's go to this. So we are trying to make the recovery where you have made, you know, Thank you, Chelsea. The recovery plan, very flexible, depending on what types of information that we have. And as Chelsea indicated, the goal of being on the ESA is to get it off the ESA. We don't want this to be there in perpetuity. We want to set up a series of criteria that other countries can use, that the United States can use, that we can say, So if you look at the results, say, in a number of years, and when you look at the, I guess you go through an assessment again, and it's increased in the US and US waters, will that ever, say it's done really well, I know it takes longer than a few years, but say it's done really well, will you be able to take it off, say, the list if it gets to that point?

31:21 before other countries have found that success? Even if it's a global species, but it's doing well in US waters, would the US take them off the endangered species or Because they've done better in in because of the the actions that have been taken Yeah, I mean, I'll let Chelsea Chelsea chime in after this because this is more her expertise than I am But like she said we set up management units, so it's not just u.s. Waters because this is right You know Shannon quite tips, you know, maybe found off, you know, North Carolina in the summer But you know in the winter they may be off Brazil. So we set up management units. We have an Atlantic Management Union we have Indian Ocean Management Unit, we have an Eastern Pacific Management Unit, and we have a Western Pacific Management Unit. And what we decided to recover them that three of the four management units that we have, correct me if I'm wrong Kelsey, three of those must show recovery in order for the species to be downlisted, or in this case, offlisted because they're threatened of the Endangered Species Act.

32:28 Because again, it's a global species. It's not just the Yeah, sorry. I'm really glad you mentioned that. Yeah, we did fold that into the criteria that all of the criteria that we've set have to be met in three of four management units. And one of those has to be one of the Pacific ones. So we have to have all ocean basins represented showing recovery in order to, at the species level, be able to delist it. So with listings under the Endangered Species Act, there are certain cases where we've divided up the species into lower taxonomic units called distinct population segments under the ESA. But in this case, we didn't have the rationale or the evidence to break up the global species into those smaller taxonomic levels.

33:19 So, yeah, it would have to show that holistic level of recovery in those management units for us to consider the Yeah, and those management units, I mean, are not equal. I mean, one of the things that was very striking to Chelsea and I when we first started working this together is, The stock assessment in the Western Central Pacific, I mean, this is a robust, all the best biologically data show that the population had declined by almost 99%. Wow. It's not a trend. Yeah. Stock assessment. Wow. And even in the RFMO, language, they even indicated that if fishing mortality increases, the population would go extinct. I mean, when I first read that from a stock assessment from RFMO, I was pretty much blown away. So, you know, in the Atlantic, it may not be as severe as it is in, say, the Indo-Pacific, but we wanted to make sure we had at least three of those four management units on the road to recovery before we could declare them no longer I'm sorry, regional fishery management organizations. We have mentioned before, I'm sorry for throwing acronyms around. It's okay. ICAT, IATTC, the various international management organizations that are primarily responsible for managing tunas and swordfish, but because sharks are such a significant bycatch issue for many of them now since the 90s, they are now, you know, the

34:54 And these organizations are... Are there any? Oh, I was just going to, I was just going to clarify that these organizations are to manage those species on the high seas. So this is to kind of capture, um, the fishing and things that are happening outside How many, can I ask, how many of these, uh, have you done for, for lasso breaks to date? you know, these endangered species recovery plans. How many, how many elasmobranchs Oh, that's a good question. I think smalltooth sawfish was the first, right, Yeah, I worked on smalltooth sawfish. That was the first recovery plan for, that was actually the first elasmobranch that was listed on the Endangered Species Act.

35:34 So smalltooth sawfish, but it was only for the U.S. population. So it was a bit, I don't want to say easier or less challenging, but we only had a focus on the U.S. population. When Chelsea and I, you know, got into the recovery plan for Oceanic white tip, you know, All bets are off because we had to consider globally. how we are going to recover the species. So it was a I think we might be the second recovery plan that's been adopted for an elasmobranch after smalltooth sawfish. We have one in development for giant manta ray. And we've got a number of other elasmobranchs listed under the Endangered Species Act, but most of them are entirely foreign species.

36:17 They don't occur in U.S. waters at all. And so we have based on priorities and things that we could do, have decided that it would be very, you know, the conservation benefit that completely foreign species would get would not reach that Yeah, I mean, scallop hammerhead are listed on the Endangered Species Act, but all the populations are outside U.S. waters, so we never move forward with developing, with the exception of the Caribbean, because we have Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands. But as Chelsea had mentioned, due to priorities and other things, we focused on more species that have more of Yeah, I guess the thing is, for people listening, it's not a lot of species that have actually been done. It's only been the small tooth sawfish and then this oceanic white tip. So it's definitely a process and it's not like there's a lot of these things. There's certainly, I mean, I know species it could certainly be. The addressed and everything- it always come back like what you can do with the U. S. waters or versus outside U. S. right as well- as you know Dave there's many back List that were listed in the park that Ava probably talked about last time.

37:32 That elicited on the nature species act but they're not found in waters and it's just indicated just their resources and time you know we can't. develop a recovery plan for species that are primarily found in Argentina or And as Chelsea said, It would be somewhat, here's a blueprint covering a species of skate that's found in Argentina. Here, Well, obviously a lot of the stuff that I do, because I go to a lot of these countries, as you know, John, Most of these people have no idea if you bring up an angel shark or some of these rays, they can't even really identify them. Ironically, the fishermen know them, but if you talk to some of the NGOs and the fisheries people there, they're just like, it's a shark, or it's a ray, and It's still same in the U.S., Dave, because we're still Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, thanks. I gotta say, thank you guys for coming on and talking about this project. I don't know if you have anything you'd like to say, kind of to wrap up. What's the future plans now? You got this recovery plan together? Any big Well, from the science perspective, I mean, I'm working with the more charitable Foundation has been very instrumental in providing funding to do a lot of work in the Bahamas, some of the initial work that Lucy Howie did and now Ben

39:06 Carey Ford. Chelsea and I have been there several times. We've been fortunate enough to be taking part in that research. That research is going to continue now. We have funding from NOAA, so we're hoping that will continue the work that the research that's being conducted in Hawaii on post-release survivorship. And then again, ICAT is now actually funding satellite tag work that I'm using to put on oceanic white tips that are caught in the U.S. pelagic longline fishery to get information on post-release survivorship. So we'll have that bit of information that potentially will complement what's been already done in Hawaii. Because as you guys know, one longline fishery in the Pacific may not fish the same way as in the Atlantic. So we may have differences.

39:52 And now Chelsea and I are now actually reaching out to colleagues we have in the Indian Ocean Tuna Commission to expand our work over there. So we're going to be busy over the next few Yeah, no, it's just like a species. It's my, you know, one of my sharks that I fell in love with, you know, my favorite shark. So it was in my, we I would say that the next step really, once we have a recovery plan in place, you know, when John talks about a lot of the science and the research, I mean, those are some of those activities that we've outlined in what we call our implementation strategy. So it's a separate document that really outlines all of the on-the-ground activities that we want to do in order to support achieving the goals of the recovery plan and getting those criteria met. So really right now, we're kind of going to be shifting into that implementation phase.

40:49 So this whole time, we've been doing this planning, we've been getting this document together, seeking input, getting feedback, involving a lot of people. And now we really want to start implementing the plan. So we can get those projects on the ground and start making some progress towards Yeah, yeah, to add on that, it's, you know, we're just a handful of scientists, you know, there's a small group of us at FIU and Mo that are doing most of the work in the Atlantic and some people in the Pacific. So anyone out there, you know, look at the recovery plan if there's some research focus that you feel can be helped. I mean, can be added to help with the recovery plan, you know, write grants and stuff because, you know, it's one of these species that really has, you know, kind of slipped through the cracks a little bit. And we are hoping that, you know, now with more broader reaches with the recovery plan and what Chelsea outlined, as I said, about outlining an invitation plan where hopefully more people will get on board and start to try to, you Sounds like a great opportunity for some graduate work for some Great. Well, thank you both for coming on the program today.

42:00 And we'll definitely have to have each of you back on to do a more deep dive into your careers and your personal journeys. But thanks for coming on and Thank you Chelsea and John for joining us on today's episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. Dave, Oceanic White Tips, global population, global recovery plan. I find it really interesting when a government document comes out and they're talking about a global recovery plan. you know, how do you, how does, like, I just, I thought that was interesting of how they talked about it, like what they suggested, and even though that they suggest things that may not happen, that's gotta be frustrating from Yeah, it is, because, you know, you have things within, you know, the national jurisdictions of countries where you go out like 200 miles off the coast, you have some, you can have some authority, depending on the country, to do something. But when you get out into the international waters, areas beyond national jurisdictions. They call them RFMOs as well, regional fisheries management areas. That's a really tough nut to monitor and to follow. And of course, the oceanic white tips, the big thing with them are the fins. They're huge in the fin trade. And so when you're out there in the ocean, the high seas like that, You can take a lot more fins than if you're, if you're not taking the carcasses, you're just taking the fins. You can take a lot of sharks if you're just taking the fins.

43:32 So that's a huge concern. That's why there's a lot of areas they talk about, uh, these populations that have declined significantly. And, uh, so there's, so they're, they're definitely of a concern. It's interesting that they commented on during the show about the one, uh, a movie we talked about once a while, blue water, white death, about how there was a lot of oceanic white tips off Durban, South Africa. And of course I shared a story that's. They, that is, I do recall living there, that they were at one time fairly, very common out there. And of course, oceanic white tips are also one of the four or five most dangerous sharks in the world, that they can be very aggressive. And if you're a person that happens to be stuck at sea, their very famous World War II incident, the USS Indianapolis, which was sank in the sea, it had 900 survivors of which only about 300 survived the time, in the sea there and a lot of, a number of people were attacked by sharks and they figure it was probably mostly oceanic white tips. Cause that's tips to be where you find them in the open Yeah, that makes the danger a lot more. But the concern here is the conservation aspect and why they're getting lower and what that recovery plan is. And these recovery plans are necessary. Somebody's got to start them and somebody's got to share them and then let the conversations you know, grow from there and, and, and make sure that other countries are involved that where these oceanic white tips take place, uh, and be able to, uh, work together to, you know, come up

45:04 with management plans that work for everybody. Or, you know, maybe Right. I mean, a lot of it was, as he mentioned, were suggestions they put out for these different countries. And of course, these are high seas, so it's gonna be a little different than a lot of the, oftentimes we talk about food security and a lot of these, poorer countries and stuff. And that, you know, those are mostly going to be mostly coastal fisheries, you know, whereas a oceanic white tip, you have to get, you have to get fairly far offshore. And it's probably not going to, I don't want to say it's coastal fishery won't be impacted, but probably not as much. It's going to be more like high seas fisheries, but you have issues of like, you know, other countries coming into fishing, uh, in the international waters of, of poor countries that don't have a coast guard. They don't have a Navy to send out there to, have these ships removed. They come in and fish in their international waters and that, and that's impacting again, the oceanic white tip populations. And, uh, you know, I think another thing too, is we, you know, we don't really know a lot about the population structure of a lot of these oceanic white tip sharks globally. You know, in some areas, like in the U S you'll have a little more information, uh, probably in the Gulf of Mexico, Hawaiian islands, but you get in a lot of these areas, like in the Indian ocean, it's really hard to, to get a good handle on what's, what's the population structure like.

46:16 And so there's a lot of, uh, kind of gosh, gosh, and by golly, what, what are they, what are they, what's the population like out here? Yeah. So it was fascinating to hear it. I think it was, hopefully it was an interesting episode for people to kind of get a little peek behind the scenes of what goes on when they do these, um, these types of recovery plans, which this is really like the first one they've done for a shark. They've done one for the sawfish. that John mentioned as Oh, which is nice. It's great to be able to have these recovery plans in place. Just going back to your high seas, you know, I think this is something for the, the oceanic white tip will benefit from a high seas treaty. you know, that's being hopefully ratified by a good number of countries. I think they need like 60 some odd to ratify it. So check if your country is ratifying it. I know Canada hasn't ratified it yet. I'm hoping they'll do it soon. But that's going to be something that's going to play an important part in this Oceanic White Tip global distribution and the recovery plan. So make sure your country's doing that. So talk to your local officials. But Dave, thanks so much. And we appreciate John and Chelsea for coming on the podcast to be able to share this this important report with us. We really appreciate it. We'll put a link if we have the chance to their their socials as well as if we can to the report. And Dave, if people want to get a hold of you and It's on Instagram. It's Lost Shark Guy, on ex Lost Shark Guy, Facebook Lost Sharks. And yeah, please go to our YouTube channel, Beyond Jaws Podcast,

47:48 and subscribe. And please leave us a message anywhere on our social media. We love hearing from you. hearing what Absolutely. Thank you so much. And we appreciate everybody for listening to this podcast and the continued loyalty and listening to this podcast. We really appreciate that. And thank you so much for joining us on this bonus episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast for Andrew and I, or Andrew and I, for Dave and I. Thank you very much. We appreciate it. We'll talk to