37 Shark and Ray Species Documented in Benin: Inside West Africa's Shark Research

0:00 Today on the podcast, we got a special guest from the country of Benin. We have Houangninan Midinoudewa who is on the podcast today to talk about his career developing in Benin when there hasn't really been much shark research at all. so we're gonna talk about that, what it's like to have, like, work from a couple of predecessors who worked on sharks, but really developing new shark species. There's a crazy number of sharks and rays in this country, on the coast, and we're gonna find out all about it on today's episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. Let's start the show. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another exciting episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. I'm your co-host, Andrew Lewin, here with my co-host, Dr. David Ebert.

0:41 Dave, are you excited to learn about sharks and rays in Benin? Absolutely. this is pretty awesome, Andrew. We've had, West Africa has just literally been kind of an unknown territory for sharks and rays generally. We've had an amazing run this year with people from West Africa who are really starting up, to research in there. We've had people, we've had GoFrom, we've had Anna Lucia on. We've had, Issah. It's just been some terrific people we had. We even had, people on from Namibia, so it's just been a terrific time, a great, just really exploring a whole new frontier out there. Yeah. And so I'm really excited about this episode. I'm really happy we, I got to meet him in, Sri Lanka at the Sharks International. Thanks again to Andy Chen- Yeah … uh, for introducing us.

1:23 And, yeah, I'm really excited about this show. Yeah, no, this is exciting. Like, you expect to meet people. Like I've done How to Protect the Ocean for almost 12 years now. And then Beyond Jaws, we've been doing this since 2021, so five years. And, we meet a lot of cool people. People from all over the world and I think it's, really cool. But to see how we are discovering on our own journey about the people who are working in places like West Africa and South America, and so, where we haven't really seen a lot of, information come out, and it's just starting to come out more and more. So this is quite exciting, you know- Yeah … as for our podcast to be able to have that ability to put, people on a platform where other people from around the world- can hear what they're doing. Yeah, I just wanna add too, like, he's a big fan of the podcast.

2:05 Yeah. When I met him, yeah, him and Issah were both like, "We listen to the podcast all the time." And who would've thought, West Africa, you know- Yeah … of all places, that we're popular like that. And, I think it also says a lot about our, podcast that we're reaching people in all over the world and, more out of the way locations like West Africa, which is predominantly French speaking- Right as well. Yeah. So I'm, kinda happy that, we have such a reach out there. I don't think there's any other sharky podcast out there right now that has that kinda reach. I don't think there is. And, uh, I think a lo- yeah, and I think a lot of it's just sharing the stories of these people, like Houangninan and, Issah, and all these other people we've had on there. It's terrific getting to know them, getting to know their story. Absolutely. I'm gonna love this interview and I think the audience is gonna love it too, so let's get into it.

2:46 Here is Houangninan talking about his shark career. I can't wait to talk about the number of species that, they've discovered so far. Enjoy the interview. We'll talk to you after. Hey, Houangninan. Welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast. Are you ready to talk about elasmobranchs? Yeah, I'm really excited to be with you guys. Thank you. Well- You bet. You bet. Well, welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast, where we have an amazing guest, and who's also happens to be a huge fan of the show. He's from a country that a lot of people probably need to check a map to find out where it's located. We have Dr. Houangninan Midinoudewa, and I apologize, I will get the name right here before. I'm sorry. from the West African country of Benin. I met Houangninan at the Sharks International recently through our mutual friend Andrew Chen, who introduced him, and, rec- another recent guest, Issah Seidu, who are both big fans of the podcast.

3:36 So as a hint to others out there who might be listening, if you wanna be a guest on the show, it always helps if you want to butter up Andrew and I with flattery. It might just get you on the podcast. Houangninan is a fisheries biologist who holds a bachelor's degree in law and political sciences from the University of Abomey-Calavi. Also has a… Okay, cool. I got, got that one right. also a master's degree in applied hydrobiology with a major in fisheries biology, also from the same university. And he holds a PhD in oceanography and limnology from the University of Cape Coast in Ghana. He's a founder of the Benin Marine Conservation Club, a research-based NGO, and a member of a regional working group in fishery science, including fisheries committees for the East Central, uh, Atlantic, and the West African Marine Fish DNA Barcoding Network.

4:28 He's currently a research associate, I'm gonna do the English translation 'cause my French is nonexistent. He's with the Institute of Fisheries and Oceanological Research in Benin, and he's a coordinator of the Early Career Ocean Professionals Benin in Node. He's also a consultant to Benin's NGO and international NGOs and institutions working in the biodiversity field. He's authored and co-authored scientific papers, book sections, and, uh, research papers. His latest paper is on the rediscovery of coral reefs off Benin. He's a happy, very happy supervisor, and he co-supervises currently four bachelor's and master's students from European and Benin universities. Man, he's got a ton of stuff this guy's going onto.

5:08 We're gonna try and get right to it. So Houangninan, welcome very much to the show, buddy. Thank you for having me here. Great. so our, asking our first question is, how did you get interested in marine science and sharks and rays? Oh, thanks for this nice question, and thank you again, well, for having me on this podcast. I think this is one of the podcasts when you are marine scientist you have to listen to and to get advices and get so many things to move ahead. Oh, thank you. So how I- Appreciate that … how I got here. Yeah. This is a, how may I put it? The childhood, dream that's come to reality. 'Cause, uh, when I was child, my father and my mother was aware, the one who has pushed me into this field, Really?

5:56 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Showing me, uh, This French oceanographer, um, Cousteau's videos, books, and so many things. I, I was like, "Oh, this is really what I want to do." But when I reached the junior high school, I was much more interested in archeology and other stuff related to the, old history. But coming back to universities and during, practicals, uh, at the senior high, high school, I discovered that my old dream is still there, and I need to revive it. So quickly back to, back to 2008, when I reached university, uh, I went out for an internship, one month internship in the institute where I'm currently, uh, as a research associate.

6:46 there, this guy who has become my mentor, my supervisor throughout my, um, bachelor to PhD, Professor Karuso, he came, he told me, "Uh, you have three choices. Either you choose, uh, going for coastal erosion, or you go for mammal, marine mammals, or you go for sharks and rays." I said, "Oh, sharks and rays." And quickly I remember this expedition, the, uh, Cousteau called Glombaza or something like that, uh, talking about this old fish still alive in Comoros, Madagascar, and other stuff. So I said, "Oh, no, better I choose sharks and rays. They have been there living for a long while, and I can still manage with them."

7:28 So that's how I got into, uh, marine sciences, and I become a, really, I'm really in love with sharks and rays. And as I'm at, um, uh, we are discussing currently, I just came back from the field, 45 minute ago because, uh- Mm-hmm. Wow. Yeah. I needed to be in the field, and I'm really happy because two days I was able to, finally see a species that I have been, you know, dreaming about. And this, um, is a part of the torpedoes, um, species, um, Tetrodon nobiliana, a small torpedo. I was really happy. And people who were with me said, "Aman, what is going on?" I said, "No, no, no, I can't tell you what I have seen." So if I tell you, I will be in trouble.

8:14 But really lucky, uh, I'm really lucky to be in this, uh, in this field and working with so many people, meeting people like Dave, uh, during Sharks International. Mm-hmm. Uh, discussing with Seidu Issah and so many guests, uh, like Gofrey that you had, in this- Mm-hmm … on this, uh, podcast few- Gofrey. Yeah, few months ago. And discussing also with Rebecca Delgado, who has been a p- a person that I've been looking for to discuss, to work with, and yeah. Yeah. Really happy to be this, in this field. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it was, like I said, it's exciting for me to meet you because I, You know, I, I've been all over the world, especially in Africa, but I was really unaware of what was going on in your country.

8:58 And so I was very excited to meet you. thanks again to Andrew Chin, uh, who introduced us. can you tell us a little bit like-- We talked a little bit before the show about, the history of, uh, people doing, uh, any kind of shark and ray research, like, before you, 'cause you're really kind of a, one of the first people or few people I know from doing any work there. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. I'm not the first one, studying sharks and ray in Benin, but, uh, q-quickly, let me talk about my country. So Benin- Yes, please … Benin is just a small country, but big by the heart. two days ago, we have one of our famous artists, Angélique Kidjo, having a, a sound on the will, uh, how they work, the Walk of the Fame in California or something like that.

9:41 I'm not too much fond of music, but yeah. Benin is that small country, but big by the heart, big by what we do. And we are just the neighbor, the eastern neighbor of Nigeria, the big Nigeria. Mm. So the where-- And we are located within the Gulf of Guinea. You know, you may heard sometimes they say Gulf of Benin, but it's not much accepted. So it's-- they say Gulf of, Guinea instead of Gulf of Benin. So that small area, that small country I'm living in, and studying sharks and ray from that country and sharing my result with the, the world. So now, uh, people before me working, who have worked on sharks and ray in the country, there was only one person.

10:26 Mm. Uh, his name is Prosper. Prosper studied in Cuba a few years ago, but he's currently on retirement. And he conducted the first study in 1997, to check on the, socioeconomic aspect of the shark exploitation in the country. At that time, he was only interested in sharks, not on rays, because, uh, rays for them is not a valuable thing, so sharks are more valuable than, than the shark. Mm-hmm. So that's how the first study has been conducted in the country. And then in 2009, I came in. 2009, I was, uh- 300 level students.

11:10 So I started what, a, a year ago in 2008, my internship on sharks and rays. So I was able to, to started a new work, a new project on that. In 2009, my supervisor told me about him because they were good friends. So I went to him. He introduced me to the work he did, and he told me, "I did this work just for two years because it requires much time. It requires a lot of, your person. You have to be on the fi- uh, in the field every day if you want to catch what they are bringing I say, "Okay, I'm still young. I don't have much to think about it.

11:50 I don't have wife at that time, I don't have kids, so I can be in the field." Yeah. I can be in the field from 6:00 AM to 7:00 PM, or even sometime to midnight, because sometimes you have fishes coming back around 11:00 PM. Mm-hmm. And you get a call and say, "Oh, you know, your guys are in, so you ca- you have to be in." So quickly you take your bike or you look for a cab, you reach the harbor, and you see what they have brought. You discuss with them where they have fished. And so Prosper has been the first person. After, after him I came in, and now, yeah, I'm happy. As, as you said, they've, I've trained currently three guys from Benin and other guys from University of Lille in France.

12:37 they just finished the bachelor, um, degree with me, um, few weeks ago. They have gone back home. So that's how sharks and ray study started in Benin. But quickly, uh, there was a book published by, Blatch. They were working for the IFREMER, this French institution. Yeah. Mm-hmm. they got some, individuals of silky sharks, bull sharks from Benin in 1986, I think so. Yeah, 1986. And so I saw that they have been here, sampling and checking on those, but they have never published, published anything from the country saying, "This is directly linked to Benin." No. Uh, but it has been put into a big book.

13:23 Uh, if you were not reading, you cannot quickly discover that something has been done or things are coming from Benin and have been- published. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I guess one of the first things you started doing was just trying to figure out the different species that occur there, the sharks and rays, can you tell a little bit, what's the diversity like there, as far as the number of shark, different shark species you've recorded, and rays? Oh, yeah. So far, I think since 2009, I started really this work. I discovered that, uh, we have about, 37 sharks and ray 37. 14, 14 sharks and yeah, the remain are rays.

14:06 Okay. So yeah, we have blue sharks, uh, we have the, the silky shark, the bull shark. Mm-hmm. Uh, we have tiger shark. That's… From time to time we can see the thresher shark, Alopias vulpinus. We can see them from time to times. Uh, we have, uh, the blacktip shark, the Carcharhinus limbatus. And yeah, uh, recently I discovered that we have Squatina squamata in the- You know, when you have a look at the distribution map of Squatina squalina, you see it just stop somewhere around Senegal. It doesn't come down. But one of my student in 2024 discovered, and I was not, it might not be, that it may be oculata, because oculata is the one which we know that is, uh- Mm-hmm … in the country.

14:57 But myself, you know, this is a, I don't think this is a coincidence, quite serious or something like that. Uh, just two days before I flew to, for Sri Lanka, for Shark Institute International- Mm … on 28th of April, yeah, I discovered that, yeah, we really had Squatina oculata in the country. Mm. I saw it. Yeah. I, I was like, "No, this is, cannot be Squatina oculata." I went on, I took the pictures. I went, I, I came back to my office, I sat, I checked all the book, and I, I said, "Oh no, this is really real, uh, a real identification ID." that is the kind of, uh, the species that we have in the country, and I'm thinking that we may have much more that we have not yet, you know, disco- we have not yet discovered.

15:48 though we have deep sea sharks like the, the, how they call it? The Squalus blanvillei. The squalus. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. We have also, um, the, the cat sharks, uh, West African cat sharks, Sel- uh, Scyliorhinus celebrens. Mm-hmm. So I think, I think we may have other species- Additional species. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. K- And that we have not discovered yet. so w- so when you started out in this whole thing, s- I gotta ask you, when you first, like, told your parents and other people you were gonna do sharks, did they kinda have a moment where they thought you were, like, outta your mind or something? Or how did… 'Cause it's when you s- when you t- or tell like, "I'm gonna go study sharks," what, uh- Oh.

16:30 H- what, what's your f- Sorry for laughing. You know, even during my PhD research, I, I remember was I was giving my second, um, uh, seminar, uh, you know, to share my research, development. One of the staff, uh, the faculty sta- staff asked me, "Why can't you go for tuna instead of going for sharks and ray?" Because- Mm … at the time I was struggling getting, how they call it? A CITES permit. 'Cause I was working all over the West Africa down-- from Senegal down to, to Nigeria. So I needed to get, uh, the CITES permit from each of these countries. So it was really tough to get them, even though I have been working with many of the guys living in those country, but it was not easy.

17:15 So the staff guy asked me, man, can't you move to tuna instead of looking for sharks and ray?" So that's your question. My parent was really astonished at me when I told them, "You know, I'm going to study sharks." My father was like, "Yeah, I knew because I have been introduced you to those things from, Cousteau stuff. So I knew you will be heading, you will be heading to those kind of no…" And he used this word, nonsense things. But I said, "No, Dad, listen, this is not nonsense. It's a way to check on the health status of our ocean." Mmm. Yeah. He said, "Oh, yeah." Because when I was, you know, getting admission for university, I was applying for, medical studies But I couldn't get admission for the medical studies, so I finally decid- decided to move to environmental sciences and where I say, "Okay, if I cannot be a doctor and, helping people to get… healing people, yeah, I can still heal the world.

18:14 I can heal the environment in s- uh, in my way." So that's how. And, until today, my father, I remember when I, I got my PhD, he was, he was really proud of me. He said, "Oh, man, you did it. You have been, consistent. You didn't change." And s- some of my professors keep saying that, "Yeah, you started with sharks. You are still working on sharks and rays. And now that's mean that you are kind of person who can be, you know, consider… No matter what you are facing as challenges." And I can tell you, there are so lot of challenges in this field. I started without any mentor. Like, no, my mentor or my supervisor who has been there is not a specialist of sharks and rays.

18:59 he's much more into marine mammals. Uh, but not all the time. From time to time, he goes for marine mammal, but he was there just telling me, "Yo, there was this book from FAO, go read it. There was this book from this guy from South Africa or from…" And that South Africa, may his soul rest in peace, Compagno, his was the first one I read, uh- Compagno? Yeah, Compagno. It was the first book I read. So I said, "Oh, really?" So I tried to reach out to him in 2010. At that time, my English was so bad. Hmm. But, think he didn't get my email or maybe he got me into the, the undesirable, uh, mail.

19:41 So I was there hoping some one day someone will be on my mentor. But until today, truly talking, working with sharks and ray, I do not have any mentor. I have been, you know, I've built myself, and I'm trying also to, you know, to give back to young guys who are interested working in sharks and rays. So when I'm asked, "Why did you go?" I say, "I go because my passion. This is what I wanted to do and-" Yeah. Today's I'm, I'm really happy to be in UW Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah. yeah, yeah. Kopano was my advisor for my PhD. I knew him very well. But probably about the time you contacted him, 2010, he was pretty much in retirement, going into retirement- Yeah at that time, so I'm not surprised if you didn't hear back from him.

20:28 He- Yeah … pretty much after about that time, he wasn't real responsive unless it's somebody he knew or something. But anyway, so you're off and running now. You're doing this, your work, looking at the sharks and rays there, and obviously your parents are very proud you got a PhD and everything. But I wanna ask you a question. you do political science for your bachelor's degree. Yeah. Yeah. A- Aside of environmental sciences. Yeah, political science, and then you go, then you do a PhD in sharks and rays. Yeah. Yeah. how does that happen? No, you know, I was at the time, in my country, we are allowed to go for two courses at the same time, And I was studying, law because I wanted to go in governmental law, justice or all those things.

21:17 Mm. At the same time, I was also studying science, environmental sciences, so in two different universities. So I was paying two different tuition. My fathers and my- Oh. My father and my mother are really… I, I'm really proud of them because they put themselves on that condition, paying two tuitions every years. And yeah, at the end, I got the, the, the, the BSC in law, and finally I had, I got the, the BSC in science, environmental science. But my point was, at the time, put together my experience or my knowledge from science, environmental science, with the law, aside of the law so that- Yeah.

21:58 Okay … you know, whenever someone raised an issue related to environment, and using the law side, I can stand and say, "You know, really in the environment, it doesn't work like that." Mm-hmm. "So if you want to go for regulation, you need to understand what is going on there." Yeah, I still today, I'm still using those side even though I have not, worked much into, political and other sides. Yeah. okay. So from your parents' background that when you did the, the law… You were kinda like doing stuff for the, thinking a law degree, and then you went for f- so actually with your, your bachelor's degree in political science with, and then with your sharks, if you actually probably have better understanding, like policy stuff.

22:41 Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Are there very many people in Benin , that do, uh, environmental policy or shark policy? no. Unfortunately, no. Yeah. there are o- there are only two guys who studies, environments as, environmental law, if I can put it in that way. Mm-hmm. There are only two. And apart from those guys, nobody has dared to go into, into that field, because most of the time for people, it doesn't pay much, Yeah. That's- It doesn't pay much. Yeah, it doesn't pay much. Yeah. You know, you talk about something that is not tangible- Yeah … and for them it's like, "Oh, you are wasting your time." Yeah. Like, for fi- for fisher, fisherman, they always say, "Sea will never dry," for them.

23:24 So you cannot defend, concretely someone who say that sea will never dry, because for them, fish will always be there. Yeah, yeah. Fish will always be there. Yeah. I saw you ha- you have a Save Our Seas grant, and so- Yeah … you're working on trying to do red list assessments on all the sharks and rays in Benin? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so by doing that, okay, if you do these assessments, are you then looking to, um, eventually, like, help develop a plan of action for sharks and rays? Is that the goal? Yeah. that's one of the main goal. That's one of the main goal. Uh, can you talk a little more about that? That's, that's- yeah. Yeah. let me just say something about this Save Our Seas grant.

24:06 You know- Yep in July 2021, I was heading to Senegal for, for my field work. Mm-hmm. And at the time, I needed to, uh, have something to listen to during the flight, and I got to know that, uh, Sara Folla was on this podcast. So that was the podcast I listened to when I was having my, uh, I was doing the flight, and I got to know some, you know, tips about how to get grant accepted, and I have applied what she said I, I was able to get the grant because a few years ago in 2008, uh, 18, I tried for the Keystone and I didn't get. So I've gone there, and I got the grant.

24:48 So coming back to your question, yeah, the point of the grant was to, you know, set a action plan for sharks and rays in the country. Mm-hmm. 'Cause, we are, we, we are a country where you have migrant fisher from Nigeria, from Ghana coming in the country to fish. Mm. And there's, there's a study that Issa didn't yet publish, uh, I don't know why. Why? we discussed few months ago about the migrants in the region, and he told me that, his guide, the fisherman from Ghana said that, okay, the best place where you can have very mature big ones, how they call it? blackchin guitarfish.

25:29 Oh, blackchin guitarfish. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And big, other big, shark species is the Benin water. So you ca- you can imagine that people from other countries coming to my country fishing the, the big species that we have in the country. So there is a need to know exactly what we have and to put in place, uh, a plan, action plan that can help- to, to preserve, to conserve these species. So that came the, the, the project. And, I'm still… No, this project is still ongoing because, uh, I have not yet, published the book. … I just got few days ago from, Jade Schultz from Save Our Seas Foundation, communication team that, uh, the book is about to be finished, so I needed to send them few words about it.

26:14 So this is a book, yeah. which book's this? you said there, there's a book that's just about done? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The book is about the species of, of sharks and ray that we have in the country. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. It will serve as a basis for, uh, policy makers and other, you know, uh, um, law enforcement guys to know exactly what we have in the country. Mm-hmm. What is currently on CITES list, what is, uh, I mean, Red List that we have, uh, for the country exactly. What we have data about it, what are data deficient, and what are least concerning- Oh, wow … to you. Yeah. that's the kind of work I'm doing.

26:55 'Cause I have data from, a serious data set from 2015 till now for almost, the species that I have in the book, because in the book we may have 35 species in the book. Mm-hmm. So, I have consistent data set for each of them. So I think it's time we assess, we evaluate what really the species in the country are facing. Okay. Oh, that's, that's… we'll look forward to that. Definitely let us know. We'll, we'll, we'll post the information, um, Sure … when your podcast comes out, is out by then. So Save Our Seas been really helpful for you for helping you get the, the Red List assessment stuff done. Yeah. Yeah. have you been working with anybody else, uh, outside, uh, with IUCN or anyone, or?

27:36 truly talking, I have not been working with anybody from IUCN guys. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. But I got to know Rima a few years, I think in 2023. Yeah, Rima Oh, yeah, Rima. Yep. Yeah, Rima. and she's, um, aware of this book coming out very soon. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. But the first person, I have been not really worked with him. There's this guy from France, Ben Skerritt. Oh, Bernard Ceret? Yeah. I Was thinking of a shark species. I'm going, "That didn't sound like a shark species to me." But- I know. But I, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, I know Bernard. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Oh, nice. Bernard in two, in 2015 confirmed my first, identification. Oh, yeah. Okay. So going on, yeah, based on that, and I'm applying, what we have in the groups, sometime I do incorporate, you know, regional, uh, how do you call it?

28:26 Specificity, you know, uh, like species like, let me tell you about the Raja Mirabilis history in this, in this area. Uh, you know, in Cote d'Ivoire, in Togo, in Ghana, in Benin, we have Raja Mirabilis. Mm-hmm. But the feature for each of, uh, for the, this species in each country are different. Yeah. Yeah. So we got to know through this, the West African Marine, uh, Marine Fish Barcoding Network that we have that difference within the s- the, the, the, the region. So I do incorporate that kind of, uh, that aspect into my way to identify the species. But when I do have any issue, I just send online on ResearchGate, if anyone has seen something like this before, or what do they think about it?

29:14 That's how I- … update it. Yeah. Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah, so no, that's, that's good. You're advising and mentoring some, some students as well, right? Yeah. Could you tell us a little bit about that? How's that going with the, uh, you have final lot of enthusiastic young people? Yeah. most of them came, came to me through my LinkedIn profile. Uh, they went, by Googling, checking, uh, who is working on CITES array in Benin. So they got to know that I'm there. Mm-hmm. And how I… Yeah. I, I, I, I ca- but I can remember my first student was recruited through a call I made, that I'm recruiting a student for a study.

29:57 If the student is enthusiastic about it, he can call me and we discuss. And, I got I think, uh, 45 feedback People, even people from med- medical sciences sent me a message that, "Yeah, I want to study with you." I was like, "One, uh, listen, this is chat survey. It's not a human aspect, human dimension." but finally, I selected two of them. And yeah, I'm have been working with them since three years now- Wow … giving them ad-a-advices, uh, pushing them to go ahead if they still want to stay in the chat survey stuff. Because this is not field where you can, you know, earn much money and you get rich quickly as you may think.

30:43 Yeah. Yeah. But- and what was it about, about those two that stood out? I mean, you went from 45 to two that stood out that would… That you said, "Yeah, I wanna work, I wanna work with these two." Yeah. I, I… First of all, we went, we went through an interview to know exactly what they want. Because, you know, in the call I mentioned that there would be a pay, a, a monthly allowances for, for, for joining me and working in the field. So I, I think most of them were interested about the The field and, and they get, you know, working with me. So I told them, "No, this is a serious work. It require much time in the field." Mm-hmm. It require time.

31:24 You, you have to be at 100% of this work. It's not like you are working here, you move to other thing. So finally, only these two, a lady, uh, she was a entrepreneur at the time, a boy… A, a, another guy, doing BS, studying BS- BSc. Mm-hmm. Who finally, you know, show really excitement, interested in the work because they were looking for something like that. They wanted to go into marine science instead of going to aquaculture. They were studying, aquaculture. In my country, there is no, s- how will I put? Marine science, direct marine science- Right … you know, cu- curriculum. So you go to aquaculture, you decide to move directly to marine science.

32:06 So they are, they were in that condition, and they came to me. during the interview, I noticed that they wanted really to change their story in the system. uh- Interesting. I, yeah, I get them and I'm really happy to work with them because when I'm not around, I'm sure someone is there getting data, doing the right job- Yeah. Mm-hmm … and speaking the local language. Because this kind of work require that we speak their language. Mm-hmm. It's not like you go there, you speak, uh, French with them. No. Most of them, they don't speak French. Even though they are good, they are fluent in French, they don't want to speak French with you. You may have people from Ghana come in the country.

32:48 So you cannot speak the classical, English with them. you speak the Pidgin with them. So if you don't have those kind of, um, asset, you don't have those kind of skills, you cannot really work with them. So this field is a field of skill. You have to speak well, you have to know how to behave with them because- … sometimes it can get into rivalry between fishermen because you have been discussing with someone for a long while, the other guys is, they're thinking that the other guy is getting incentive from you. He also want to get that part of his part of incentive. So you have to look at balance. You have to discuss with the others, other guys, and discuss with the other one.

33:30 So that's how it goes. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. That was interesting. Yeah. So, , kinda like where do you see your research going forward from here? Yeah. you know, uh, Dave, you, you inspired me something. You have been studying lost sharks, but now I decided to move to less studied rays in the region. Rays. Uh-oh. You know? Great. Now we're talking Dave's language. Yeah, yeah. Now you're coming over. Now you're going. Yeah. Yeah, really, you inspired me because, I started with, um… My master studies was about, the demography and the exploitation parameters of two species of sharks in the, in Benin, the blue shark and the silky sharks.

34:13 Mm-hmm. But over the time, I've noticed that, the sharks specialist unit, you know, the, those fishermen that are really interested in sharks, are no longer working because there are so many regulation in the country. Even though this has, you know, those regulation are not written on the paper, but they're here. "Okay, you, you are not allowed to fish sharks. You are not allowed to get, uh, to brought, uh, to bring the fish on shore because you will be punished, you will be in jail." A- a- even today I was told something like that, that- Mm there was a guy who, uh, who said, "Oh, no long- you should no longer fish sharks in the country." I agree because these species are endangered, but if they don't do that, we do not, we scientists, we do not have the equipment to go at sea every time to know exactly what will happen there So since those species are becoming rare in the country, I decided to move to the, uh, to the, to the less studied rays because these species are there in three days.

35:15 Mm-hmm. Whenever you go to the field, you may see, I, I think today's, today I, I, I saw from seven species of rays in the field. Wow. Yeah. the Potytrigon, the, um, the Hypanus, Hypanus rivers. This is, uh, the West African species. Uh, you have a species in America they call Hypanus americana or americanus, something like that. Yeah. It's a Dasyatis. Yeah, it's a Dasyatis ray, the, the new one. Mm-hmm. yeah. Uh, I saw, how do they call it? The maculatus, Rhinobatus maculatus. Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. Uh, yeah, I saw it. I saw, a Rhinobatus iriei in the, uh, in the field.

35:56 I saw a Glaucostegus omphalops. So there are so many species you can see in the field. Just within 45 minutes, I saw all those species. Wow. you can imagine even though the, the landed specimen are not too-- is not a high number. You may have five, six, seven, but there's this diversity they are bringing in, and there's no much data about those species. Mm. Let's talk, you know, looking at the Rhinobatus maculatus or Raja meralitis that I've seen today. those species are data deficient, I think. Uh, uh, I think, and now currently I want to, shed the light on them. Mm. Because we say West Africa is data lacking country, area.

36:38 There's no much data about fishery or those stuff. So I want really to put my work towards those species and studying the less studied sha-- uh, rays instead of, focusing on, on, on sharks. Because- Mm-hmm so many guys in the region are working on- I can't stress enough, the rays are just, you know, there's like nothing known. I mean, sharks are not well known, but rays are very almost nothing known. Yeah. But I can tell you one thing when you're talking to people, if you talk Now, maybe not when you're talking to the fishermen and stuff, but outside people, like, if you say flat sharks- Yeah … you'll get more attention than if you say rays. Yeah.

37:18 Yeah. I- You have rats. Yeah. I, so I s- It's all in the marketing … when I say sharks, I'm also referring to the rays and the ghost sharks. or ghost sharks people get excited about, but if I say rays, nobody pays any attention. But so think about using flat sharks when you talk to some of the people about that, Yeah … on stuff. And so, um, well, I, I gotta ask you here what … It's been really super fascinating, like, 'cause you're in such a unique part of the world. I kinda wanna go visit you now sometime and, um- … visit the markets. We'd love to have you. Yeah, man. We'd love to have you. And I could talk Andrew into doing a trip with me sometime. of course, yeah. Andrew hears about a lot of my trips, and I think he's like, "Nah, I think I'll…" Yeah, I'm like, "Uh, I'm not as adventurous as Dave."

37:59 I'll go some- Yeah … I'll find someone else to go with there, but, but, uh, uh, what advice would you have for like a young person who's maybe living in West Africa who wants to go study sharks and rays? What advice would you have for them? the main advice I may give to them is, um, you know, guys, be consistent. Don't think that if you have-- you are not unlucky to get a support, a grant, or maybe a mentorship in this, in this field. Keep it up, keep working, and one of those day you will shine, and you will-- I mean, people will see you, know about your work. If I was not working, I wouldn't get a civil society conservation grant.

38:40 I wouldn't met you in Sri Lanka few, few months ago and being here. So the main advice is being consistent. They should be consistent. They should focus on that. Though it might not be easy, but starting, it's, it makes sense to be consistent. And the second is don't be, how will I put it? Don't stay in your comfort zone, you know? Stay in your comfort zone. Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You have to leave your comfort zone. You have to, give a taste to something new that may give you, you know, it will make you, sometime ill, but you need to go there. Mmm. You need to taste and to know what is there. I remember in 2010, the first time I was embarking on a boat, uh, heading for a fish trip, a fishing trip.

39:29 I remember my supervisor was, "Man, be careful. I didn't ask you to go there, but if you decide to go." I remember I vomited all during the trip. The trip was two days. I vomited all the time. And at the end, coming back, I told my boss, "Yeah, this is my first try, and I think next time I will be going for shark survey, fish- fishing, operation." So that is the kind of thing you have young guys… I'm still young because I'm not old. Oh, yeah. So I have- You're a kid. Yeah. I'm still ready to, eager to learn new things. But the guys, the new generation coming, I keep telling them, "You guys, you have to leave your comfort zone." Give a try to another thing that you have never done before.

40:20 Uh, and I, uh, there's al- also this advice. Uh, for those of us who are coming from, French-speaking countries, Spanish country, and the English is not our first lang- language. That is a language barrier that you have to face. I, I remember in 2017, I have to attend the South African, sharks and rays. Sharks and rays? Yeah. Yeah. And at, at that time, my English was so, not so bad, but I was like, "Can I go or can I stay?" But just because of that language, I stopped. I decided to not go. Mm-hmm. Even though at that time I got a support from Save Our Seas Foundation to, to attend the, the, the symposium. I couldn't go because I was like, "No, I, I'm not yet good. Uh, my English is not so good to, to stand and discuss with people." So yeah.

41:05 Yeah. But later on, I decided to say, "Yeah, I need to leave my comfort zone." Yeah. I can't be speaking French. And that's how I came-- I, I went to Ghana to do my PhD studies. I started a PhD at home. I was on, I think it's my second year. Yeah, it's my second year. So the challenge was, uh, was then, but I was not fine with what I was doing. So I decided to say, "Okay, let me go somewhere where I can be really challenged." Mm-hmm. Yeah. And how I, you know, I s- I decided to go in, in Ghana. I got a, how do you call it? Uh, scholarship from the World Bank And I found, I f- I found myself in Ghana University of Cape Coast where I, I, I had my PhD studies, and I was able to improve my, my English.

41:53 Even though I'm still, you know, trying to push it, trying to, uh, im- uh, improve it. But I think today stand discuss and, you know, use my words, use my, uh, language Franca Latina words to back up my English words. So, yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. So these are kind of, the major two advices I will give them. Being consistent and leave your comfort zone. Yeah. Nothing will, nothing will come directly from the sky into your hand, but you have to fight for it. You have to battle for it and you will get. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. well, I think that's great advice, Wani. And, and I wanna thank you very much for coming on the show here.

42:33 it's been a real pleasure having someone from your country, come here and share, your story and about your journey and everything. And, uh, we'll definitely sometime future have you back on here to see, catch up on what you're doing later on. Yeah. But, uh, it has been a, it's been a real pleasure having you on. Thank you so much for- It's so much fun … having the time. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. you bet. All right. Bye-bye. Bye. Bye. Thank you, Houangninan, for joining us on today's episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. Dave, 37 sharks and rays have been found in Benin. You're probably not surprised by the amount of sharks because it just- Yeah … hasn't really been, studied a lot and hasn't really been discovered. Mm-hmm. But that's gotta be, quite interesting as someone who looks, for sharks and, trying to discover more sharks, and being able to understand that these sharks are there, they just haven't really been- found or cataloged like the way Houangninan and his colleagues are doing.

43:26 Yeah. And Benin doesn't have, like, a big huge coastline either compared to a lot of the other countries out there. I would say that 37's a low number. I'm sure as, he gets more time and more surveys going, that number's gonna go up. Yeah. I don't know what, I don't know what the- Oh, for sure … I don't know what the ceiling is, but I'm confident it'll go up, and I think if they start working offshore in some of the- Yeah … deeper areas, that'll even expand the number as well. Literally going from mostly zero, ' there were a few people that did some surveys years ago there, but nothing dedicated like he's doing. Yeah. You know, he's really just taken this whole project on, and just really gotten into it, and that's what you need. You need people like him that are gonna get into it versus someone… I love going around these countries and exploring, but, I'm only there for a short time.

44:07 Other people that go into these countries, they're there for a short time. but you have one of the locals like him, like Houangninan, he's the kinda guy you want out there who's gonna be there. Absolutely … he's into it and he's dedicated. So that's, that's just awesome. Absolutely. Yeah, no, we are definitely, very lucky to be able to have people like Houangninan and out there doing the great work that he does, and to be able to come on the podcast and talk about it and be the fan. Like, it's really cool, to be able to hear that from listeners, and then like, we want them to come on and talk about the work that they do. it's fun for us to be able to- Oh, yeah … meet a lot of the people that are doing the work that we've never met, before, and they're enjoying coming on and, it's kinda cool, like, to just have the, like, to build this community of researchers- Yep … right? That's what I love about doing this- podcast.

44:48 It really jazzes me up. Yeah. and I know it does for you as well. Oh, yeah. So, and I'll be honest, like, folks, just to let you know, like, when Dave came back from Sri Lanka, he was like, "I've got a list of guests-" Oh … "for, like, a year." Yeah. And, and he's so excited about having people on and talking to them about their career and just talking all things sharks. it's great. So, if you ever see Dave or myself at conferences and you're into shark research, you're interested in shark research, come talk to us, come say hello. We'd love to chat with you. I'm gonna be at International Marine Conservation Congress- Yeah … like, IMCC8 in Scotland in November. Please come talk to me. I would love to chat about podcasting.

45:28 Actually, I will be chatting about podcasting- … in one of my talks. But, come say hi. I'd love to meet everybody, and have those kinds of discussions of what they're doing and all that kinda stuff, and you never know, you might be on the podcast at some point. Yeah … but yeah, I, I just love it. It's fun. but thanks again to Houangninan and then we're gonna put, links to socials in the show notes. And then Dave, if people wanna get ahold of you, how would they do so? the best ways is, Lost Shark Guy on Instagram. Please, go there and follow me. Also, on my YouTube channel, at Lost Shark Guy. Go on there. Andrew and I and, Denise Sotomayor have been producing a series called Searching for Lost Sharks: Extinct or Alive, where it just follows me around some of the places I go around the world, and, go on there and please subscribe. Absolutely.

46:08 it's gonna be great. It's gonna be a lot of fun. so check that out. If you're watching this on YouTube, subscribe. If you haven't watched it on YouTube, go to our YouTube channel, Beyond Jaws Pod. And of course, if you're on Instagram, Beyond Jaws Pod, DM us. We'd love to chat with you. And of course, Dave's at Lost Shark. So thank you so much for joining us. From Dave and I and the Beyond Jaws podcast, we appreciate you so much. Thank you. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time, and happy conservation.