Shark Research in the Midst of Conflict: The Story of Igbal Elhassan

0:00 Have you ever thought about doing a PhD in shark science and even doing a PhD while your country is in the thrust of a civil war? Just imagine how challenging that can be. Iqbal Alassan has done that. She's received her PhD but she did it during a civil war and the challenges she talks about on this episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. So I want you guys to hear this. This is going to be a very, very interesting interview and show. So let's start the show. In the early to mid 1900s, the only thing people knew about sharks was that they bit people from time to time. Some scientists started to get to know more about the larger sharks, studying their life histories and their fisheries. As the field grew, so did the diversity of fields within shark science. Public interest in sharks grew exponentially as a series of movies called Jaws peaked the people's fear and curiosity for these sharks. More information was revealed about these mysterious animals as the shark science field grew. From exploration to discovery to genetics and ecology, the Beyond Jaws podcast will introduce you to shark scientists of the American Alasma Brain Society and their work to help you better understand these wonderful species and take your knowledge Beyond Jaws.

1:18 Hey, everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. I am your co-host, Andrew Lewin, with my co-host, I am really ready for this interview, Andrew. This is one I'm really looking forward to. I was really happy she was willing to come on. I've known Iqbal for a number of years, and she has a story of challenges of her journey that pales pretty much anybody else we've ever done, I believe. um, having to flee because of the civil, literally a civil war where she would either could have, would have had to leave or die basically. And, um, she's lost a lot of relatives along the way. It's just things people, most of us will never experience, thankfully in our life. And it's a, it's a really compelling story. And, Absolutely. It's very special to us to have, for her to be able to share this with us. Uh, so here is the interview with Igbal Elhassan talking about doing shark science as well as her PhD in Sudan from Cairo, Egypt.

2:24 Enjoy the interview and we'll talk to you after. Hey Iqbal, welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast. Are you ready to talk about sharks? Yeah, of course. Hello. Thank you for having me. You bet, you bet. Today on the Beyond Jaws podcast, we have a very special guest. We have Iqbal El-Hassan from the Sudan. Iqbal is a lecturer at the Department of Fisheries at the University of Bahri in Khartoum, which is the capital of Sudan. Before that, she was a lecturer at the University of Juba, where she became the head of the Fisheries Department at that university. However, as a result of the Second Sudanese Civil War, the university was temporarily relocated to Khartoum before it eventually moved back to Juba after South Sudan gained independence in 2011. After the separation from South Sudan, she became a lecturer at the Fisheries Department in the newly established University of Bahri. She also works as a local consultant for shark identification and runs training workshops for Marine Fisheries Administration and for regional identification workshops around the Red Sea. She's been a member of the IUCN Shark Specialist Group since 2005, and she's conducted research in areas little known to most Western researchers. This includes areas like northern Yemen, Eteria, and around the Arabian Sea. Her PhD has been a journey that we'll discuss today, and it has been quite a journey. Her education, she did a bachelor's of science degree at the University of Juba in fishery science with honors, a master's degree also at the University of Juba in fishery science. And as I said,

3:57 she's currently working on her PhD at the University of Khartoum. And Thank you very much. Thank you. I'm happy to be Thank you. We're very happy to have you. Can you tell us, we always ask our guests, how did you first get interested in the ocean and You know, I grew up in Bursudan, where is the Red Sea. Yeah. My dad was working at a company in Khartoum and then before I pour, He moved to Bursudan to work at the branch of the company there. And me and the rest of the family, I mean, my brothers and sister, we grew up in Bursudan. And we become attached, me personally, I become attached to sea. Yeah. And then, yeah, yeah. For that reason, I joined Fisheries Science. I wanted to, yeah, of course, there is University of the Red Sea, and there is a Faculty of Marine Science.

5:05 But at that time, the enrollment is just for boys. So, They don't have, yes, yes. So I joined. Just for boys. Yes. It changed. The first batch of girls was in 2004. So. Really? Yeah. I studied fisheries science and yeah, after graduation, I appointed a teaching assistant in the department. that in 1999, yeah. And I was lucky that before I complete the year as a teaching assistant, I got, me and other teaching assistants at the college, we got an inauguration to do the master. And so, my master was on shark, but not directly. I mean, first, the head of the department at that time said to me, because there is shortage in the stuff for fish pathology, I suggested you do your study on fish pathology. And he said to me, go and talk to a part-timer who teaches here, and talk to Dr. Abdel-Jabbar, who teaches this subject. And

6:35 in fact, my heart was in the Red Sea. So I said, he said, no, so go and talk to Abdul-Jabbar. And Abdul-Jabbar, I was lucky. I think that Abdul-Jabbar, I told him, I like very much your, I mean, the course. And I got A's. But actually, I want to do my master on marine science in Bursudan. And he said, no problem, Iqbal, because I got an offer from Saudi Arabia and I accepted it and I'm going to, yeah, so do what you want to do. Yeah.

7:17 So I just, yeah. And I wrote a proposal on roofing color rubber, because there is a problem on that. Yeah, in Saudi Arabia and in Sudan also. They claimed it is overfished and there is no management measures. In Saudi Arabia they do, they have, they said they have a measurement, management measures for it, but in Sudan no. So I wrote a proposal for that and at that time I applied to Bangor and Liverpool. Yeah, because I want to study outside, I can gain experience or even good laboratory. So I got an acceptance from Liverpool and was a nice letter, as they say. You can do this in fishes in England, but when you come back, you can do it in the species you wrote in the proposal.

8:27 And sadly, my mom broke her thigh. And I decided to be with her because I was the youngest girl for her. So I decided to be with my sister, married outside, and decided to be with her. And I told her, I will come to Liverpool and I will do the Red Sea to take care of you. Unfortunately, I mean, sadly, she passed away 10 days after after the operation. So I applied for... Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. Yeah.

9:10 So I registered internally, I accepted the nomination of the university. And I registered with Dr. Sayed Mohamed Ali from the Faculty of Science, Red Sea. And my co-supervisor was Samir Yanni from Juba University. And then Dr. Sayed, the main supervisor, read the proposal and said, this is a very good proposal, but show it to Professor Abujetary at the University of Khartoum. he passed away, it was like we consider him in Sudan, like a father of fisheries in Sudan. And I went to his, yeah, in marina and freshwater, by the way, he guide, he have guide for freshwater and guide for basic form of sawaki, fishes of sawaki. And I met him in his office in the University of Khartoum, and he said, he read, he said, this is a very good proposal, but why value... I... Why you don't do it on shark instead?" Yeah.

10:21 And I said, ... he said, consider this. And I went out ... of his office, like confused, how I can get the shark. At that time you know, by the way, because in Sudan, not like in Egypt here, no shark attacks. And we never hear about that in the media. And even when as kids or young, when we go to beach, we just afraid of torpedo fish. We never think Torpedoes, yes. Because electricity. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. Yeah, both my supervisor asked me to write a proposal. They say he agrees with the idea of Prof.

11:17 Samir, of Youssef Abu Jaderi. And they asked me to write a proposal. I wrote the proposal. And then, Yeah, it was just because Rauf Abu Jidari was also a member at Persica, you know Persica of course, Persica. That countries, some countries that lie on Red Sea and Gulf of Aden, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Jordan, except Eritrea. He was a member and he knows at that time there is a problem with the shark. in the whole region.

12:01 No information, no even identifying the species, no scientific study, and also even they don't know the status for even any information about the fisheries. But most of the country claims that there is overfishing. So that is why Prof. Bugidere suggested this study to me. And I got excited with it, actually. Though I was sad with the passing away, just a few days of my mother, but I think going to see the challenge I found, I faced during the study, yeah, was a cure for me, for my, for the pain of the loss. So, the... The objective, I remember, was just identification of species on the Red Sea, of shark, the Red Sea, and breeding season, breeding season. And Professor Semirani just suggested that I made a hostility on the gonads, he said, to confirm the breeding season. And I choose, I choose the Gray Reef shark, because also there is a problem ... with the tourist ... agencies, the tourist ... department. There is, they claim there is ... because it is important for the

13:33 tourist ... divers come for ... to watch Gray Reef and Hammerhead. So, my study was, original one, the first ones in the Red Sea, and I think the whole, all the Red Sea, except after that the consultancy of Ramon Bonfils. Yeah, because he was a consultant after Persica. But I think my study was, I mean, for fisheries and biology was original one. And then, the problem was, at that time, there is claim, there is for fishing. And there is also, always, I mean, But there is no, I mean no, no information on the species or the status or anything. And there is also Marine Fisheries Administration always receive ... request for, for investors to, to conduct an, I mean, shark, commercial shark for free. and even from Yemen. Before

15:07 I start the study there is a local order from the authority to ban fishing. That was in 1998, even when I was a student. Yeah, but still it was on paper. Still there is poaching from foreign ports and illegal fishing from Sudan, also local fishermen. And so there is a lot of shark in the market, but finned, just shrunk. Yeah, just shrunk.

15:50 Are you the first person really from Sudan to actually study sharks. I mean, I don't know anyone else. Are you the first person from You know, it is, it is, I mean, it is so that is still I'm the only one. I encourage a student. You're still the only one. I encourage students from our department, from the Marine Fisheries Science. Some start, but then quickly. One student told me, we need a quick career. Shark, yeah. Even in Sudan, you know. Even in Sudan, I think it's not easy. It's not easy.

16:33 It's not easy. Right. I'm sure it must be difficult just so people, people. I didn't mention this earlier, but people listening at Igbo is we're doing this podcast. She's in Cairo, Egypt right now because she had to flee her home country, Sudan, because of the civil war. She ordinarily would be in in Khartoum, but she's had to leave the country. I assume that's had a lot of impact on. I'm sure just shark, shark, just fisheries in general, just the whole life and life in Sudan. The fact you you're having to do your courses from, from I'm not working here in Egypt because it's not easy. They don't, they don't allow for the Egyptian don't allow for foreigner to work even in any job. Yeah.

17:27 Gotcha. So it's hard to get I have to stay here. I got to stay, but this is not my final destination. I'm going to Port Sudan in September. I have a project to continue. Port I have a project. Now, is it safe? Is It's very busy now after the war. Yes, it's an operational city that is now affected also by the war because many, many now leave Hortoum and central towns to go to Port Sudan because it's safe to work there. And now it is crowded. But life is going on, Can you talk a little, because Sudan is so far removed from most people, can you tell us just a little about your country, a little bit kind of before the war, and how it is, a little bit about your Yeah, before 2011, before the separation of the South from Sudan, yeah, it was the largest country in Africa, Sudan.

18:45 And Sudan have fast fresh water. the Nile, and other rivers. The only sea is the Red Sea. But then have, I mean, wealth of animals also, wildlife, agriculture. very rich country in terms of resources, yeah. And we will have well-education from the past when the colonists, British colonists, yeah. And good universities, yeah, good universities. But then, but we, it was hard time because we saw I mean, last year before this war, because of some economic crisis, or economic sanction also, and it's affected people very much. And suddenly, I think I will avoid talking on politics. Yeah.

19:56 Yeah, no, that's fine. That's fine. But of course, the war affected the whole country. Very sad, yeah. Even the education, even the primary schools, many kids couldn't continue their education. Because the school is closed, except in Bursudan. And university, even our students, for one year, no classes. And now they are discussing to teach online. And expenses, everything is expensive, very expensive. Anyway, most of us can go to the Emirates or Egypt. Many, many. We thank the Egyptians.

20:47 They are very welcoming. But we hope, the people here, we hope to go back to our country, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course, of course. People complain about different things, but you're literally trying to do your shark research in a war zone. And the fact that you're continuing to do your research going to Port Sudan and And you're concerned about illegal thinning that's going on and just the shark research. Yeah. Even here in Egypt, I wrote a proposal for Manta and Donga Bay. And still, I hope we can find funding. Because in September, if I got the fund, yeah. It's good, yeah. Then you'll go back. Even I got... I'm going to continue my project with Marine Fisheries Administration on green sawfish. Yeah, I'm going, yeah, yeah, yeah. And while in Egypt here, I participated with the shark and ray And I proposed important shark and Yeah. And I proposed for... Oh,

22:19 yes. Important. Yeah. And I wrote with Rhianne Charlies and it's accepted because I have a lot of data of all these years of working on shark and rays. Recently, I'm focusing on rays and I have a collaboration with... I did, yeah, with Nylar Gavin. Anyway, I'm working on R.A.S.E. now. Working on R.A.S.E.? Yeah. Now I'm focusing on R.A.S.E.

22:59 Because even before the war in April, I was in Pursutan collecting data. And I'm eager to go back, longing to go back, to continue even this, yeah. So, for my journey for the Master, it wasn't easy at all. Because at that time, a lot of sharks, and even I have to mention Christina Maria, the Italian who have an agency, tourism agency in Bursudan. Her husband and she, she always, I met her, now she back to Italy. She spent many years in Sudan. She make a lot of, I mean, defense for shark. Yeah, I always see her in the fish market when I was gone there.

23:56 Always angry when she see all this, I mean, many, many shark. Sometimes she call police and then just next day there is shark. And for me to collect the data, there is just trunk, trunk with only second dorsal fin and anal fin. And sometimes there is a bycatch for small, for a small shark, like a slit-eye shark. Now, no slit-eye shark at the market. I don't see it. It's not coming now. No. No, no. There's a lot of milk shark still. So, or spot tail shark, white tip reef shark. they brought as a whole, and I know this is by catch, not professional. But for professional fishermen, a lot of large, and also juveniles, sometimes juveniles brought as a whole. So my problem, I haven't attend, I mean, identification, shark identification training, And there is no literature, there is no literature also in the Library of the Red Sea or even in FAO Library in Khortoum. So, I reached out, yeah, I reached out to Ross Chaton at

25:27 that time. I don't know him, but I read the name in FAO website and I wrote to him, I'm a student doing this, but I don't have a literature. Kindly he sent, he sent literature like a publication, I mean like a case study of fisheries management, shark management, to big volume, yeah, to the library of the Red Sea and to the library of FAO. Yeah, and some publications, like a review of a word, the famous one by Ramón, in 1994. Ramón, yeah, he sent this also. And for the identification I found one guide, first edition of Leonardo You know him? Sorry. Who is it? From South-West Africa. It's one of the guidebooks, Yes, Leonard Capanio. Okay. Yeah. First edition, I think. I found it in the library of Pau. But it was good, of course, but not I just want to let people know, FAO is another way of pronouncing it, FAO, which is a food and agriculture organization.

27:03 No, no, most people call it, outside like the U.S. Everybody calls it FAO, but in the U.S. we call it FAO, so I just wanted to make sure people Thank you, because in Sudan we say FAO. Thank Yeah, no, I know. I And I, in the Library of the University of the College of Marine Science, I found identification guide for Arabian shark. by Randall. It was, it was very useful for me. Yeah.

27:48 Very useful. Okay. Because it have image. image, I think image is ... yeah, is good than drawing. Drawing is good, yeah, but for the beginner or one who train himself, I think image is, could be, I mean, when comparisons, compares this with ... a life, I mean, life shark or ... and even in the guides also say teeth, the teeth ... for the shark. The teeth, yeah. the teeth. Yeah. And for two, for two months, I work on this, train myself to identify shark. And I, I think There is something I enjoyed very much. And I think now I have experience on it. And I can do training for this, particularly for shark in Sudan and Eritrea. Because even in Eritrea, same like in Sudan, they brought the shark as a trunk without fins. And there is illegal fishing also. There is a pond, but illegal fishing like in Sudan. So, I just start to study the position of the dorsal, second dorsal fin, to the anal fin, and as a remark on the, on the body, like ... brown, brown lines, like in the sunburst shark, or the notch

29:18 of the anal fin, like in the big eye shark, or inter-dorsal, inter-dorsal reach, some have and some, that was very useful, yeah. And took, I took video, videos and I took video, I mean, photos of, of, of the second dorsal fin and anal fin, yeah. ... That was very useful, yeah. And then, and even ... later, I tested myself when the sample I brought to the safe overseas, it just shrunk. And I wrote, this is big eye shark, big eye shark. And they turned to be, after the genetic work, yeah, this is hammer, great hammerhead or smooth, I mean, great hammer or scalloped. In the lab, they work on 78 sharks, hammerhead, that I identified from the trunk as great hammerhead, and turned to be great hammerhead. I was... I love... I found it... Pardon?

30:44 I enjoyed it very much, to identify shark Have you thought about trying to produce a guide, to try Yes, yes. Thank you for this question very much because I was thinking of this and I found it very useful. a whole in northern Yemen or southern Yemen, they brought the shark as a whole. But in Eritrea, I have contact with the research on shark, research from Eritrea, from marine faculty and from fisheries department. When you talk about this, they need this here. And in Sudan, because it is not It's not practical just to take a tissue, I mean as a record for the Marine Fisheries Administration. It's not practical to take a tissue and send it to a genetic lab. And to say this is a sand bar or a big eye shark, nose shark, this is good for research, but for record for fisheries administration, the practical things is from traditional I

32:15 think that, yeah. Training on the traditional procedure to identify shark. Yeah. So, I wrote to Persica about this. Yeah. Persica is regional countries of the Red Sea and Gulf of Aden organization. Okay. So, at that time, yeah, in 9... in 2... in 2012, I taught ... training ... course, workshop for the officers from Marine Fisheries Administration. And yeah, I trained them on, theoretically, on the whole shark, yeah. Because we don't find, normally, whole shark. But I focus on this, what I did. Yeah, on this feature, yes. Yeah, and most of them were so excited. And they have exams, also senior, junior and senior officers, from the administration. It was very useful. At that time, because I prepared, I did hard for preparation for the workshop, and I found, even they asked me to do in Arabic. And

33:47 I found it, I have a material, so I wrote to Persica. I have material for this, and there is need for shark record, and because of the problem of you couldn't find a shark as a whole to identify. So, they say good, they say no. I didn't hear. But Okay, yeah. So, are you still... Do you still try, so you're going, you're doing, you're surveying Port Sudan, do you still survey some of the other countries there, like Eritrea and some of the other places, do you still go, go to those locations to Yeah, but you know, if you let me just continue on, how I collect data for the... can I... can I do? For the Master? Yeah. Yes, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you, thank you. At that time, for two months I couldn't find... find data, just for bycatch. And then, and this is from that I mean... Okay, I... I could say, this is... gray reef sharks, but I need to confirmation, yeah,

35:19 to say there is a shark like this in the Red Sea. At that time, with this situation, I knew, I heard there is three, three, three vessels are coming, have come, that had come from South Africa to invest in Sudan. one person for sardine and one long line for to invest in tuna. And the other one, I don't remember which, anyway, and they stay in a resort and there is inlet. The boats were there till they got the final permission to work, to go to Burslan to resume the work. The long-line vessels went to sea and illegally fished for shark. They fished from offshore water that fishermen couldn't reach it because of the pot. This is a long vessel, I mean big vessels with long lines. big hoax. So the marine security, quite same. There is lots of fins. And then there is

36:52 a committee from the research center, faculty of science, and marine administration. And then they say, no, our aim is to invest in tuna. This is just we do it. And because they I mean, the license for the investment was from higher, not from the administration, from the Ministry of Investment. So they just pass it and start the work. And I talked to my supervisor, I said, It is better to get a permission to accompany the boat. They say they are going for tuna, but even though I expect with long line, there must be shark. And shark, not that shark normally found in the sea, in the fish market. I expect migratory shark.

37:58 I expect. And even from the things I saw when the police caught it, there is, I mean, migratory shark. Mako, white tip, great oceanic white tip shark. Yeah, so to get the permission, yeah, I got the permission. The Sudanese, the Sudanese manager, the Sudanese and the translator who came from Spain. This is Spanish, Spanish ports. work for many times in South Africa, but then they moved to Sudan. The translator Sudanese who live in Spanish were very supportive. They talked to the director of the Spanish company, and they said they will allow me to accompany the ship. And I got, they said, I mean, I got the final permission from the Ministry of Agriculture in Sudan.

38:59 And my supervisor was so excited for the idea. Yes. And I did three trips. They said, we are going for tuna. But unfortunately, there is no tuna, even a commercial tuna in the Red Sea. I think, I think, yeah. So, we did three trips. And the challenge was, No, no woman, no girl accompany, I mean, fishing, fishing boat at that time. And even one woman among men, no. This is even for a conservative city like Barcelona, particularly at that time. So, I remember ... one from a company that ... expect the safety of the fish, of the ship, say to me, it was just ... we were traveling, next day, he said to me, your family don't ... care about you, I said, why? He said, this is a very old, very old ship. There is risk because the skipper or the captain don't know the way, I mean, to avoid the Kuala Reef. Even just Sudanese can know this. There will be an accident. You don't see

40:30 that boats that have an accident, the third one, and just because there is a hole. Now it's out of work. I think I talked to my sister, my late sister. I am going for this trip. And she said, no, no, no, no, please, no. She was in Dubai at that time. Don't go. Because it is fine to die on land, not in sea. eaten by a shark or don't find your body. My elder sister said, go, God is with you.

41:12 So this encouraged me to go. I wasn't afraid, actually. I wasn't afraid. I was excited to do my research. So one thing I was worried about is a woman on a boat with men. For me, it's fine. I'm a researcher. But it's not normal for the community there. I remember when I let her go on the boat, and the Sudanese translator was with me, talked to the workers, the Sudanese workers. There is Spanish and Sudanese workers. They said, take care of her. And I know I could take care of myself, but thank you for him, for his caring. Yeah. So just one day, The ship hit the Kola Reef. And we come back to Bursudan. Next day, just two days, Jack on board and got again to the sea. And then there's a few many, I mean, oceanic white tip shark, meko shark, tiger shark, and large silky shark. Silky shards, yeah.

42:38 Silky shards. Yeah, it is painful to see this very... I never saw this, I mean, I think maximum, maximum size. Yeah. And, I did, I mean ... feed, food and feeding habit. Because they, because they ... they take ... they take the liver, they take the liver and just throw the meat, throw the meat, throw the meat, throw the meat, yeah. So this was an opportunity, though it is painful. No one wants a shark to die, but yeah. I did, yeah, I mean, food and feeding habits. I mean, food, I mean, stomach content, I mean. For tiger sharks.

43:26 Stomach content, yeah. Yeah, mackerel shark and all. Just four, four species. And for me, it was, yeah, All of this, like, yeah. Just I was astonished to find garbage in the stomach of tiger shark. Cans. Found garbage. Old wallet. Passport, yeah. But also, yeah, turtle, sea turtle, yeah. Or Yeah, I don't know. You're quite a unique person being I say you're quite unique in that you were the first one to start doing, to research in a, especially with being a woman in a, in a very male oriented society to do, to do study sharks and then to be able to go out on, on boats to continue your studies out there. It must've been, and there's nobody that's done any work. It's gotta be like, you're really, Thank you. I remember, this is the second trip, just I was, I thank the Sudanese and the Spanish companies that because they gave me a room, separate room and even there is, yeah, and at night, one night, I think that was the last day of the trip. At night I was just sitting at the deck and

44:57 watching the waves. Suddenly there's darkness and people come from up there, my room is there. in the first floor, the port. They come with the Russians, the captain and the engineering. They say, there is a big problem, a big problem. Sudanese engineering was so frightened. He said, it is better to go out, because we, we, we may, there is a problem with the engine. We may, the port may sink. or hit by other boats, because we are in the main channel and there is no light. It was horrible times here. But then they fix the problems and we go in the morning back to the port of Sudan. I don't want to, yes, this is just the last trip was ... as the last day also, there was, in the morning, when they set the line, ... the weather was so nice, breeze, fresh breeze, and people were happy, and the Spanish ... one of the Spanish crew, crew was sinking in Spanish, and, and then, just appeared all, you know, all, as I pronounce it correctly, Owl,

46:30 owl, owl pet, owl pet, owl, owl pet. Some people ... treat Owl fish, yeah. When it come, suddenly show up, and stand on the ... on the boat, and some becoming like ... Oh, this is will bring bad luck for us. And there is... yeah. And some people say, no, this is just superstition. And suddenly the captain, he is from Chile, I remember, came and just, he hot tempered, he just made a fight, a harsh talk with two, two aircrafts, and suddenly the happiness turned to be on him, just silent and angry. And then, in the night, the captain received a call from the other port. The captain had a heart stroke. And we have to go and pull the... Yeah, and we have to go and pull the port. And there is a problem with the engine also. We go and...

47:54 I remember, it was time to do this and to fix that. And ... I remember when they want to, I mean, trying to pull the port to the other port and the port is swing from side to side and, and I saw the water from the window ... very high. Next day we go back, that was the last one, the last, the third one was the last trip. You go back down, fortunately the captain was okay and he left to Spain. So, it didn't take a long time, I heard about illegal fishing from two boats. Fishing is a southern coast. ... yeah, the police cost ... quoted them, and there was 5 ton of Yeah. And ... one, one fisherman bought ... he bought ... the shark, and it was a chance also to work on these 5 tons, in a summer, to work on 5 tons in a summer, And ... also a fasting, it was a fasting month I remember, and it was ... I

49:26 mean, the health... The department of health at that time, they said for the fishermen, you have to take this in a neighboring fish, neighboring hood, fish as a piece, mainly for healthy reasons. and all the people from the neighborhood come out. Many never saw shark. Kids, women, men, yeah. I've gone to air consist and there is a student from secondary schools also among people and I asked them to record for me. Because I have to work fast, in hurry. Because there is a processor, fish processor from the fish market. They work on cut, on hurry, and ... anyway, I collect ... yes, data on ... statistic data, or even for ... life history, I mean ... characteristic ... very hard work, from morning to Lion.

50:41 Yeah, and then, in, in December also, there is a, also, this was, that was in August, and in December, another two birds, were caught from the North Stream caught. This is another area. That is why I know, I add a chapter for my Master, for my thesis, Geographical Distribution. Because I know, with shark and ... from South and from the North. And same hard work, and yeah, yeah. But that is just a joke, a joke. Okay, thank you. Sorry, No, I was going to say... Yeah, continue. No, I was going to say...

51:24 I was going to say when... So, all this stuff now, you're going to go back in September to see what's... to follow up on all this, with the finning and the sharks, now There is other, I mean, a new thing because of the law, yeah. At that time, it's still local order. And I, even when I, I mean, defend my thesis, I still continue working from my salary. Whenever I go to Wurzlan, I go to the course and I, Lot of research, just on the search of sharks, but I work hard for awareness campaign amongst the fishermen, by myself, without ... I mean fund from any, any, any agency. I go to South African and the North, in the fish market, collecting data or talking with people. And there is positive, positive stories. I don't want a lot of bread for the, because of the time.

52:33 Positive stories, there is a shark, one fisherman who fish for shark, he quit it. He's, he's, yeah. He told me, generally, I I was going to say, this has been fascinating, hearing your story and what you're doing and how all the research and your challenges that you've had to overcome being a woman working in this part of the world, not to mention the other stuff. And it's really fascinating. It's been a terrific interview to have with you. And we're looking forward to hearing more in the future after we do some of your next trip to Port Sudan in September and everything. Definitely at some point we'd like to have you come back on and follow up and talk some more about your amazing journey that you have here. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your Thank you. Thank you. We appreciate it. Thank you Igbal for joining us on this episode of the beyond jaws podcast, Dave, what an incredible story. What Uh, it was, yeah, it was what I thought it would be. It was quite an amazing story.

53:47 She has, I didn't realize when we started, I forgot that she'd actually had, she did had finished her PhD cause it was, it was a journey and a half literally having to flee the country. Of course, if you didn't pick up, she's in Cairo, Egypt right now doing, doing, uh, doing the interview cause she can't go back to a cartoon. anywhere there because they're literally there because of the civil war. She's been, and the amazing thing is she's still trying to carry on doing her shark research, like trying to get into port Sudan and wherever she can sneak in and see what's going on. And she's still monitoring like the shark fin trade. I mean, you talk about a, just a compelling story and she didn't even, you know, probably have to have her back on at a future date, uh, update. Cause she's, She still has a lot more that she could have gone into, uh, that just, it was just an amazing story, which she's, she's had to do and persistence.

54:39 And she, and, you know, she's been to like places like Yemen and at Daria and all around that whole area and the Horn of Africa, which is just really. very dangerous to be just, you know, certainly for Westerners, but even for someone like her Sudanese who speaks the language is extremely dangerous for her to be in there. And she's still studying the sharks in that area. It's It really makes you think, you know, a lot of times over here in North America, we complain about doing, you know, graduate school, we complain about, you know, the challenges that we face here in North America. But a lot of times our life is not on the line. And it really puts things into perspective of what some people will go through to follow their dreams of being in shark science and being in shark conservation. And this was one of those stories with Iqbal being able to not only complete a PhD, but continue to find out more information on these sharks and these elasmobranchs. It's just absolutely amazing. Love the fact that she came on and shared that story with us. And it's not easy. Right. To talk about a civil war that has affected her family and friends and just her I was going to say, you know, she didn't even really get it. You know, she's lost a lot of relatives during out this throughout this process. She really didn't get it. She's we spoke with her off air. And of course, I've known her for a while, but she just I mean, it's just it's it's it's powerful and it's compelling. And and she just and she just soldiers on, just moves on.

56:11 And just despite all of those challenges, And, um, you know, she was the head of a department there in the South Sudan before South Sudan became an independent country. And then she had to relocate up to back to Khartoum, start again, basically all over and then continue to try to continue on to get her PhD. And, and she did, she does have her PhD now, and she's just basically, you know, working her way back through the system. Now it's just, it's just, let's say it's just, it puts in perspective for those of us, North America and Australia, Western Europe, that just Yeah. Challenges she has to go through is just, is just amazing. And, uh, definitely, there's definitely an episode and I'm not gonna, I'll Absolutely. And, uh, so we'll put, uh, links to anything that she can, uh, provide to get in touch with her or staying connected with her. Uh, but we'll all have her definitely back on, uh, Best way go to Instagram a lost shark guy also on the other social media is lush lost sharks and lost shark guy on Facebook and Instagram and X Anyway, and please go subscribe to the podcast. Go Absolutely. All the links are in the show notes. You can go ahead and do that now. We want to thank you, Dave. And thank you, of course, Iqbal, for sharing that wonderful story with us. A hard story, but quite a provocative story. And we

57:41 really appreciate it. So thank you so much. And thank you to everybody who is joining us again here on the Beyond Jaws podcast. We really thank you for listening each and every episode. And this has been an episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast from Dave and I. Thank you so much. Have a great day. Talk to you next time and