Are Orcas Really to Blame for the Missing Great Whites?

1:07:13 Hey Chris, welcome back to the Beyond Jaws podcast. Are you ready to talk about sharks? Let's get our teeth stuck in, ready to go. I love it. I love it. Well, welcome to another episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. And today we have a very special returning guest. We have Chris Fallows, who's a world renowned wildlife photographer, whose images of breaching white sharks have been featured on Discovery Channel, Shark Week, National Geographic, ABC's Planet Earth with David Attenborough and numerous other sharky programs for over the past 35 years. Chris has one of those jobs as a wildlife photographer that everyone studying wildlife would love to have sometime. Chris is one of our first guests actually back. He was back last on in August of 2020, 2022, which is a long time ago, which, sorry, Chris, we should have had you on much sooner.

1:08:00 At that time, he stirred up some trouble discussing the issues of orcas versus white sharks. Well, since that time, we decided we had to have Chris back on the show because he's been stirring up more trouble on orcas and white sharks, as well as he's doing some new new work now, doing a lot more terrestrial photography photography if you want to catch up on. So, so we thought, well, it's long past due. Chris, time to have you come back on the show and catch up and welcome to the show. Thanks, Dave. I brought my ladle with Distur the Pot again. So ready to go and happy to discuss the issue again. Perfect. Perfect. So, well, why don't just quickly before we dive into the orchestra, what have you been doing with your with your Chris Fowler's photography these days?

1:08:42 Yeah, so thanks for asking. So I think, you know, as you mentioned, I've lived a very charmed and privileged life. I've been to all seven continents many, many times and worked with many of the planet's most iconic animals. And I've seen many of them, you know, become very imperiled along the way. There have been some good news stories, too. But the reality is when you've had such an incredible life that's been given to you by all these creatures, you need to do what you can to give back. So through my my final photography, I hope to inspire audiences around the world as to what incredible creatures we have and hope for those that may not have the privilege that I've had to become passionate about those animals by seeing them and, you know, wanting to see them for themselves.

1:09:29 And through the sale of my final artwork, my wife, Monique and I, we buy land in southern Namibia that we hoping to eventually be able to create significant wildlife corridors to allow the free movement of wildlife in those areas. You know, it's a very arid area. It's an incredibly beautiful area. It's an area that historically had much charismatic megafauna. And, you know, there are a couple of other like minded people in the area and we hope to create an area one day of maybe somewhere around three to four million hectares, which is the size of a small European country and bring back creatures like lions and elephants to these incredibly beautiful landscapes. And I'm sure we'll touch on this. But what I learned with working with, you know, the marine world is that had I been able to buy by chunks of the ocean or by islands, I might have been able to make a significant difference.

1:10:22 But I couldn't do that. I can do that in a terrestrial environment and I can control what happens in those lands and I can try and protect those animals. So that's why, you know, it might seem a strange segue for people who know my background, having now moved to protecting terrestrial landscapes. The reality is by virtue of being able to protect them ourselves, we can control what happens on them. So, yeah, you really trying to use the images and narrative built up over, you know, a long period of time to affect a positive change and hopefully in a very small way give back to those creatures that are given me so much. Chris, can I ask you a question in terms of your photography? Because I mean, your photographs are legendary in many ways.

1:11:05 And photographers are a bit of a like, they're not, they're storytellers in a way, they tell their stories through the through the images. Can I ask you, like, how has your storytelling through your images evolved since you first started out until, until now where you were like, I mean, your work, you know, outside of photography, or I guess it's all intertwined is very conservation focused, obviously, as you just mentioned, was that the storyline that you were trying to portray when you first started? Was that always it or has it evolved and how has that evolved? Yeah, I love love love kicking off with that one. So, you know, when we very humbly discovered those famous flying great white sharks, it was all about creating impact, you know, the world and never really seen images like those before. So yeah, it was capturing G while moments and, you know, essentially trying to elicit an emotive response to them.

1:11:59 But over time, I began to realize that there was a lot more to the great white than, you know, flying out through the air and a big mouthful of teeth. And it became a case of trying to integrate the environment that the white shark lives in into my images. So I started placing a lot more of an emphasis on bringing in the greater landscapes. I started moving more from shooting with long lenses to wider lenses. And then as my style, I think progressed, I really started putting a strong emphasis on bringing art into my work. So focusing on elements like clouds and raffled sea states shooting into the light and creating a lot of emotion with my work and then trying to focus on what is specific and relevant to that particular species. So I started really focusing on the most iconic tuskers on the planet and in landscapes that really had an artistic feel and look to them. And it was the same with the white sharks. You know, over time, I realized I could get very close to these animals. They were never about trying to catch me. And I realized that right from the beginning. And so I started trying to shoot from very low angles and really use very wide lenses, which allow me to creatively use little crafts and all sorts of different things to capture those images. So yes, and it was really a progression from high impact, very fast

1:13:29 photography to more conceptual photography, where I planned an image a lot more, went to certain areas at certain times of the year to bring in those those moody aspects. And yeah, I really tried to do the environment that the animal lived in justice with the animal itself. And the story is told through the visual aspect of the photograph. Did you ever followed up with like an essay or even like, you know, in today's world where everything is on social media, you have a lot of young, you know, young, I guess, aspiring photographers who are trying to learn the craft and, you know, they're trying to tell stories. When you're when you do photography, is the story told in the image itself? Or do you have like an accompanying essay or writing or whatever that might be in today's world, maybe a post on an Instagram phone, who knows, but to get to help get the message across? Or is it just more of the visual aspect?

1:14:29 No, you know, once again, yeah, lovely, lovely question. It's both. You know, a lot of a lot of the works depict the most iconic animals on our planet and or iconic species, but many of those works also depict the most iconic of those species. So I try and bring that sort of narrative into my my imagery. And for example, we've got a very privileged ever really incredible exhibition at Dubai International Airport that has 100 million people go past it. And they're under each image is a story. The one exhibition there is called the 11th hour. And it kind of relates to that theme where time is running out for all of these animals. And under each image, I kind of tell my very humble life story working with that particular animal. So the narrative is as much about telling the story as the image itself is.

1:15:28 And yeah, I think it's I think it's very, very important, you know, to convey the right narrative and and there can be no better subject to actually uses it uses an example than the great white shark, you know, in many, many occasions when we worked with those animals, they would come up and gently mouthed the engine. And you could use and construe that in two very different ways. You could talk about it as I have right now, or you could say this crazy creature came up and mouth in your son of bite and destroy the boat. So, you know, it really is how you kind of frame not only the photograph, but also the narrative that goes along with it.

1:16:08 Yeah, I feel like that that latter headline is one that's used a lot these days, you know, on on social media and on the headlines to kind of get people to click but it feels like the other one that you first started talking about seems more of like you have to be patient with the message that it may not get the the the viral attention that that a lot of people seek these days, but you get the right attention from the right people who want to learn. And I feel like that's that's the way to go these days is just have that patience with your message and you'll find the right people the internet's a big place.

1:16:53 The world's a big place. And if you put it in the right places, you'll get the attention it deserves. You just have to be a little patient with it. I wish you could broadcast that to the whole world because that's what it's all about. We will. We will. It's on YouTube. It'll be on YouTube. It's so true what you say, you know, it's not really about how many hear the message. It's about who hears the message. And I think in today's world, so many people are focused on trying to get more likes and more followers that in so many ways are superficial. Yeah, it's about getting being authentic to yourself, being authentic to what you represent and trying to convey certainly in my case, what I believe the truth is, is that you're not going to be able to get more likes and more followers.

1:17:35 And I think that's what I think the truth is about those animals. And yes, it's not always glossy and it's not always sensationalized. In most cases, you know, it's a lot more subtle. And I think if you look into the depth of those subtleties, you find the truth and the honest answer about those animals. So I like to think if people read the Instagram posts, I do. And I'm not a huge social media person. But I really try and bring forward the emotion and privilege of what it's like to work with an incredible great white shot. Or magnificent super tusker or truly incredible great aviator like a wandering albatross, you know, and let people live in that moment that I was so privileged to have. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have any particular now moving on that you're not doing the photo doing the white sharks as much like some of your terrestrial stuff. Do you have any particular place you like to do your photography at these days?

1:18:30 I think, yeah, I mean, we do go to a lot of places. But with my style, it's very much about trying to bring art into my work. So a place like Amber Silly National Park for for elephants, the central Kalahari for black mane lions working off South Africa's west coast for super pods of humpbacks very moody sort of style and feel they're going to really remote places like St. Andrews Bay for here. And I think that's a huge throngs of penguins where you have incredible landscapes behind them. So yeah, the every place I go to is carefully planned and specifically at certain types of the year to create a look and feel to the works. But having said that, you know, I certainly won't ever say no to visiting somewhere more conventional like the Kruger National Park or or Itosha National Park because first and foremost, I love nature and I love animals.

1:19:28 Photography comes as an extension of that. And sometimes I love just being there. We were in Matusadona National Park in Zimbabwe just a few days ago. And I got I didn't even take my cameras with on this trip. I just said, you spent your whole life looking through essentially a little inch squared viewfinder. Just go and take the cameras in and I've got such a kick out of just looking at a couple of elephants that I've seen probably a million times in my life against an incredible thunderstorm and you know, just enjoying being in those moments. And it also inspires you when you can just look and engross yourself for when you do cake go and take those photographs, you know, it's kind of like taking a vitamin C tablet and yeah, just really feels the passion.

1:20:10 Do you find when you're say at a place that's like say Kruger National Park, which is where the animals probably tend to be a bit more habituated with people around versus when you go to a more remote area where the animals probably haven't or not used to the humans being around you. Do you find a difference in the behavior? 100% I mean, yeah, look, as a photographer, it's a hell of a lot easier to work in an environment where animals are habituated. It's always nice to photograph the front of them rather than when they're running away and you find off their backside. But the reality is, you know, it comes with a different skill set to work in harsh environments where animals are probably not nearly as familiar with humans and probably my favorite place, certainly on a terrestrial level is the central Kalahari.

1:20:56 You know, it's an area that's 55,000 square kilometers. So truly ginormous and you might be one of only 100 people in that landscape and the animals. Yeah, they're not as frequently or not seeing people nearly as frequently. So it is a different skill set. You have to put in the time. But the beauty is when you find those animals you are on your own. You can spend the whole day waiting for that moment and you can really conceptually come up with something that's very special. So yes, the big national parks are great. And I would suggest anybody who hasn't been to go and see them and experience them and have these animals right next to you. I mean, it's incredible. But I think it's also a progression. Once you've had the privilege of seeing those places, you kind of seek out these animals.

1:21:44 And you can see these truly wild places, you know, very few of which actually remain and have those intimate experiences. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's that's really neat. Chris, I really I really enjoy your photography as you transitioned over now. It's been it been amazing and thank you. Just seeing and seeing and seeing have you transitioned for that. Just sorry, sorry, they just interrupt. I'm looking at his website as we're as we're having this this interview and it's like, I'll be honest, it's breathtaking. Like, you know, I've just started to get into photography really understanding, especially wildlife photography. And it is absolutely breathtaking. So we'll put your link in the description. It's chrisfellas.com. But I highly recommend anybody to go in and take a look because you have you've kind of you've you've oceans, air and earth.

1:22:31 You know, and I just they're all just breathtaking. I've got a lot of detail. It looks like they're almost drawings in some of them. Like it's just ridiculous. So love it. Yeah, I gotta ask you that your iconic elephant picture here on your home page. How did you get? I mean, I've seen I've been up close to elephants, but I'm like, I'm looking at that gone. Okay, how the hell did you get that one with them? Yeah, that's a very special one. So that photograph is actually called Defiance. And the name embodies what that animal has had to go through. So that's an incredible female tusker. You know, the very few elephants left like that on our planet that have these incredible tasks, especially a female like that. So she's, you know, by virtue of that, defied the poachers snare and the hunters gun, that environment in which that photograph was taken is incredibly harsh.

1:23:25 That matriarch has to cross a lake that's about 20 kilometers long. It has not even a blade of grass. So she has to get her heard sometimes with very small elephants across that. And then with ever diminishing resources, particularly in that environment, that's Ambiseti where the shrinking crown of Kilimanjaro that nourishes all of those landscapes and provides water is also shrinking. So she's been kind of defined in every effort to to kind of wipe her out. And yeah, it's you know, it takes a lot of time and patience have been there many times been probably quite a few months of my life there. And I'm not just trying to take a photograph of any animal in that herd. So you're trying to get close enough to focus specifically on that one iconic animal.

1:24:13 And that's really what is so special about that photograph is it's it's not just blending of those two almost visceral landscapes. It's having the most iconic animal as your as your your prime example. So yeah, very that was a very, very special moment and a true privilege to be in the company of a creature like that. Yeah, and those listening if you haven't checked it, check out Chris fouls.com. It's a cover image or the elephant. It's just it's really striking. It's just it just it just really jumps out and it's Andrew said almost looks like a drawing. It's so just wants to come right out of the photograph. Yeah, I'm not a detail and everything. Yeah, it's just like a lot of them are like they're black and white photos. But to see the contrast from the elephant to the clouds behind is just it's phenomenal. I love it. I just want what I think I noticed a lot of your stuff is black and white and which is a kind of an art form. I kind of thought was left back in the seventies or so.

1:25:09 When those of us around. Yeah, I know. That's what I say. But it but it's real the black and white. It really is. It can be quite striking a lot of the black and white images versus the color and that that's a I noticed you do. You do a lot of the black and white. Yeah, it's timeless. It's got a class all of its own and it's uncomplicated. And I think you're trying to when you're trying to create art, you're trying to create something that's pleasing to you. And the less complications it has more than I can really identify with specific features. So I love black and white on, you know, many levels, there are certain images that Yeah, I just can't bring myself to turn into black and white. But from an art from an art point of view, and I'm trying to create, you know, investment grade art pieces, I think black and white lends itself perfectly to that agreed. Yeah, agreed. Absolutely.

1:26:04 Can I ask you a question? You know, you mentioned, you know, this is a typical, you know, a 1970s type of type of photo and grew up in the 70s and just rub it in, Andrew. No, I think this is great. This is because no, because I think there's a lot of times where, you know, like even in science, we forget, you know, we forget the the methods that were used in the past and some of the studies that were used in the past to kind of how it brings into the future and how it influences how we do science now, and just how we do photography now. There's been a lot of change in photography since the early 90s. And photography since the 1970s. We're in a digital age right now. Have you did you make that transition? Or are you in a transition where you're still using film?

1:26:45 Do you still use digital? When you made that transition, you know, you have to learn on your feet, like, can you just talk about that transition, how it's affected your photography in that sense? So when I first started shooting, which was in the seriously, which was in the 90s, we're obviously shooting on film and slide. Yeah. And it was a case of if you went on an expedition and you're shooting underwater, you would have, you know, 36 images that you could take. And that was it. So if you're underwater, and you thought something good was coming, you kind of had a barge of time. And the other big thing was that you could make the same mistake over and over again, you can never look at the back of your camera's reference. So, you know, I did trips where I went away, and then I'll get back to South Africa.

1:27:35 And I would take my film in those days to the lab and they develop it and it was, oh, my gosh, you know, I did the same thing over and over and over again. And I kind of messed up and I wouldn't say an entire trip. But yeah, so that was, you know, learning process. But I think it was a good one because it kind of forced you to learn a little bit more technically. I'll never forget when I took, you know, I suppose, which became the photo I was best known for, which was a great white jumping out of the water with its mouth. Why it opened. I remember seeing that split second very clearly when I when I took the shot, but I had no idea whether I nailed it. And I knew at that time that if I got that shot, it was probably going to be the most spectacular shock photograph, certainly that I'd ever taken and maybe anywhere.

1:28:23 And I took it to a lab in Cape Town and they could only develop it by the following Monday. And I remember nervously that whole weekend wondering if I'd actually a captured the moment and be it was sharp. And I walked into that lab in Cape Town on a Monday. And everyone was clapping and I thought, wow, fantastic. You know, this is incredible. And I went in those days used to have a loop like a magnifying glass and used to put it. I know what you're talking about. Yeah, you were. And used to used to look through this loop on your slides. And I looked at the first frame in the sequence, which was truly incredible, but it was completely soft. And I thought, my God, you've watched a moment you'll never have again in your life. And then the second image was sharp. And that was kind of the defining image for me that really, you know, was very fortunate to help my career. But that was the process you went through. And then with digital, suddenly, you could be underwater.

1:29:19 And you could see that. And correcting your mistakes right there. And that was a mind blowing transition. And one, I didn't want to accept because I love shooting with film and I love my my Canon EOS 1V that did 10 frames a second. And there was this magnificent machine gun feeling when you shot a breaching shock, you left that you'd actually hold the trigger down a little bit longer just to hear that. But then, yeah, I mean, digital revolution. And today we have mirrorless cameras, which I love even more because they allow me to be even more creative in my composition. And yeah, I mean, technology of cameras is really advanced greatly.

1:30:00 Yeah, that's amazing. That's amazing. But so Chris, even though you're doing this, all this is a main just really good. We'll have to have you come on some time. We'll spend some more time on this stuff. But we want to talk to you today about you're still stirring up trouble on this white shark orca issue, which has been in the news again lately. And kind of what have you have you data, son, the trouble you're getting yourself and everyone into. I'm always in trouble one way or another. If it's not with the sharks or scientists with my wife, so who knows? But the reality is, yeah, the reality is, I still want to save those few that are left. And I still very strongly believe that, you know, we're not we're not tackling the real issues that have pertained to the real reasons why we've lost the great whites in South Africa. So those animals gave me everything in my life.

1:30:55 And I will keep fighting for them. I don't have any vested interest anymore. We've sold our shop business. I don't derive any income from working with those animals. But what I do have is, you know, over three decades of incredible experiences, many of the best ones of my life that were given to me by them. So yes, I do believe that the truth, what I believe the truth is needs to come out. Because if we don't address those factors, there is no chance we will ever be able to do that. And I don't think that we will ever have white sharks again in South Africa. So yeah, I don't purposefully go out there and still hornets nest. I know intent of doing that. But I do want to trigger whatever I can to start really looking into those causes and rooting them out because I believe without getting rid of those primary causes, which I'm sure we'll discuss.

1:31:50 But I think we have no chance in South Africa, we need to control those elements that are within our control instead of focusing on those which we have no control over. Yeah. Sorry, sorry, David, can you just just lay out what the sort of the I guess that the quote unquote two sides of the argument are in terms of what's happening, what's happening in this in this disappearance or movement of great white sharks within within the areas that they're normally found in South Africa. Yeah, so so they they're too strong, strongly opposed schools of thought. The first is that two orcas by the name of Porton starboard have come to the southern coastline about a decade ago, and have caused the complete disappearance of white sharks from the three former hotspots in South Africa that I think it was globally acknowledged had the highest population of white sharks anywhere in the world. So that was false bay, Hans by and muscle bad.

1:32:49 And they've been those two, those two workers have been the reason why South Africa's white shark population is either collapsed or been killed or has moved to the east as some would suggest. Then there's another school of thought of which I'm a strong proponent that anthropogenic so human causes in the form of the Nutella sharks board, the KwaZulu Nutella sharks board that have got a set of bay, the protection nets on our east coast, as well as a fishery of the the commercial shark long line fisheries. So commercial means bottom and then it's a long line that is put out to catch small species of sharks, that those two have been the primary causes of why why sharks have disappeared from our coastline. And you know, we did a huge amount of work investigating the long line fishery. A lot is already known about the devastating effect that the sharks board has on sharks in South Africa. But really looking into the fishery that has long been suggested wasn't really having an impact on the white sharks and really you know in recent times we found out that yes sadly what we speculated all along was not only true it was probably an underestimation of the impact that was taking place. Yeah go ahead.

1:34:11 Okay yes I mean I the other thing I just kind of struck me when I was kind of like as I was kind of following a little bit but after talking to you a couple years ago and of course you have talked with Allison Towner, Allison Koch and a lot of the other people Paul Cowley and others that have been involved. One of the things that I also kind of came across was there seems to be more of a there's been more of a cold water intrusion in the western Cape and you've seen like species a common one you know you'll know well as the the shy sharks like you have the the haplobufers had words the eye which used to be common in false Bay they've tended to move further to the east and the and the haplobufers picked us which used to just be my experience was just in the west coast they have moved further to the east now as well and I'm wondering I don't and I don't really know if anybody's looking at some of these other just a natural environmental causes they're just cooling to the oceans or something that pushed the what that have pushed the white sharks in addition to some of the stuff you're talking about have put help push the white shark population further towards a eastern Cape KZN in that area yeah yeah for sure you know definitely invited their own environmental factors at play but what I can say you know unequivocally from my experience working in false bay is that human impacts have had a devastating effect yeah I started on my career working with the local beach seine net fishermen called trek netters and as a young guy and he's in his teenage years when I should have been more diligent

1:35:42 of my studies at school I used to be down at the trek nets taking the sharks out the nets and and releasing them in the early days that the trek net fishermen used to kill the sharks and very kindly through a little bit of persuasion they allowed me to start tagging them and in those early years it wasn't uncommon for us to get you know upwards of a hundred smoothhound sharks in the trek net maybe with 10 or 15 bronze whalers and then a couple of other amazing sharks like the odd threshold ragged tooth thrown in in between and what we started noticing over the years particularly when the shop shark fishing for smaller species of sharks that were exporting to Australia started kicking in is particularly in the case of the smoothhound shark those populations really started crashing almost perfectly in line with as you would logically assume the increase in the fishing started to take place so we noticed that we are seeing a huge decrease in numbers of those smaller sharks what I didn't understand at the time and please remember we're talking about the the mid and mid 90s here and even earlier is the relevance of those small sharks to great white sharks you know in the early days we used to just think that great white sharks fed on seals and when they got bigger they might scavenge whale carcasses etc but what a lot of science has told us you know since then is that those small sharks and various fish species form a very very significant portion of the great whites diet and if you look at the Natal sharks board that you know has a

1:37:14 long history of obviously killing great white sharks what they also did is they looked at the stomach contents of great whites and in a paper done by Jeremy Cliff it was showing that far of the 592 great white sharks that they sampled over a must be in about a 15-year period forgive me if I'm slightly out on that yeah but that smaller sharks and fish made up over 60% of the great whites diet and what we started seeing around the world is you know that sort of figure started mirroring itself in other areas and when I started working all around the world I often would see you know white sharks in environments where these small sharks were so it didn't take a rocket scientist to start figuring out that if you started messing with what is the primary prey source you're going to probably start seeing ecological shifts in the distribution of the white sharks as well and what we noticed in false Bay's and bear in mind by the mid 90s I was starting to run my own shark business mid late 90s and by virtue of the fact that I was making money out of working with great whites I needed to know where they were to satisfy my my clients needs to see these animals and we realized that the great whites were around the seal colonies for roughly around five months of the year so traditionally in the late southern hemisphere autumn months so you look talking about April May and then into the very early spring months so beginning of September so essentially a five-month window and when the white sharks suddenly left seal island at the

1:38:46 beginning middle of September every year we quickly found out that where we found them correlated exactly with where the smooth hound and other small species of sharks were and then over time particularly in the early 2000s when the shark fishing the hand line fishing and then the long line fishing really started kicking in and those small sharks are disappearing from false bay we started suddenly encountering white sharks in all sorts of areas in false bay where they may have been seen occasionally before but now suddenly we're becoming very prevalent and we started seeing the great whites coming back to seal island earlier and earlier every year and it wasn't a huge step in logic to think well these animals are having to cover more ground to find what was previously easy food to find and in all likelihood they were coming back to seal island to scavenge because that's what we were seeing whereas before it was primarily hunting healthy seals they were coming back to scavenge to offset the deficit of them not being able to find these other prey sources and we started seeing this further up the coast as well we also started paying more attention to the fact that the white sharks you know were feeding on these small animals and in places like DeHerpe there are no seals but you had high numbers of great white sharks in short environments that were very rich in these sharks so it didn't take you know too much to put together that you lose these small animals you lose the prey you lose the predator if you put it in a terrestrial equivalent if you

1:40:18 wipe out all the impala out of the Kriga National Park you're going to lose things like cheetahs and hyenas and wild dogs and all the predators that prey on those and we're going to move forward quite a bit here but what we didn't realize at the time and I was starting to talk to the shark longliners and you know I knew one or two of the captains of these boats and I started saying to them you know how many how many of these small sharks are you catching and I'd say well you know an average trip they would catch 10,000 of them and that to me was a truly ginormous number and I said you know my theory is that you by removing the white sharks prey you are going to be causing big problems for the white sharks and I'll never forget the one captain of the boat he was actually an incredibly knowledgeable person on all forms of fishing and marine life and he said to me I don't know so much about what you're talking about in terms of the white sharks prey being these small sharks and what impact we having but yes it's logical but what you should be far more worried about is the fact that the longliners of which he had been one are entangling a lot of white sharks and the white sharks are dying on their lines so that suddenly triggered for me at least as bigger problem but it became almost impossible to prove you know because a he was now retired but other the active captains would never say hey yes we catching lots of protected great white sharks and we're killing them you know no

1:41:48 and it's not easy to get on these close so for a long time we were waving the red flag saying you can't wipe out the white sharks prey and expect there won't be consequences but a couple of years ago after much digging and really trying to get to the bottom of it so much so that we actually even bought a boat to follow the longliners and caught them fishing and marine protected areas and caught them breaking pretty much every law you could we eventually got a whistle blow on the inside that we tracked down through a hell of a protractor and we were and he told us exactly what was happening on those boats and yes they were catching and killing large numbers of great whites that they had a very well established procedure to get off the boats and out of sight out of mind and the penny really drop that these guys are not only killing the prey of the white sharks because of the huge spatial overlap of that fishery with where the great whites are so naturally were that essentially the fishery and the white sharks are targeting the same thing it was almost inevitable that they didn't have a significant clash by catch and ultimately the white sharks were never going to come out on the better end of that and what we worked out from what this guy worked on the boats had told us is that that fishery was killing somewhere between 45 to 60 great whites a year so to put that into context in 1996 Jeremy Clift who is a very well known and respected sighted fish and he was a very well known and respected

1:43:19 scientist working within the tail sharks board did a paper I think Dave you might note I think it was with Sheldon Dudley where they came up with a figure of 1276 white sharks that was 1996 then Alison Tarno did a study in 2013 and she said there were roughly 908 white sharks left on our coastline by 2016 just three years later another scientist by the name of Dr. Sarah Andriotti came out of the paper and said hey that numbers now somewhere between 330 and 550 white sharks so let's say 420 white sharks so he went from 1276 in 1996 to 440 in 2016 so you know that is a massive drop and if you look at when the demersal shark longline fishery really kicked in you can see that catastrophic fall off and one of the things we did working in false phase we kept data from I'm not a scientist I'm not a researcher but I'm a very passionate naturalist and we kept data from the very first day we started working with those white sharks in false base so I kept data on all sightings every single animal I try to get the sex on every animal I kept data on every predation event we ever saw and the outcome and I kept kept data on anything else that was interesting pertaining to the white sharks as well as all environmental data so we had a very long and consistently kept data set from 1996 till 2018 or even to

1:44:49 the early 2000s we used to average white shark length of run about 3.8 meters which is by far the biggest in South Africa and false by we used to see very large animals there many of which were either approaching sexual maturity or adults themselves suddenly from about the mid 2000s a we started seeing less big animals and be we started seeing less animals or together and see many of the sharks we saw come back year after year we recognize them individually as you know specific animals a lot of our regular students are coming back and I'd already written all this in our data that I will be publishing fairly soon in a book that actually showed you know we were seeing these declines as early as the mid late 2000s already but that decline really became precipitous since the early 2000s around about 2014 or so where suddenly from you know being a relatively slow decline it was literally off the face of a cliff and we saw the very last a white shark at Seal Island in false Bay in 2018 so yeah from those incredible years where we could have up to 23 different great white sharks in a single morning by 2018 we lost the last one and here's here's where I'm going to climb on board with the orca theory.

1:46:19 And we were there every single workable day that the weather would allow for pretty much most of those years so it was highly unlikely that if those orca's were at Seal Island during daylight hours we were going to see them but we never once saw them port installed at Seal Island. And preceding port installed but coming to South Africa or becoming even relatively frequently seen along our coast we had already seen a decline in early 2000s or mid 2000s and then by 2014 long before the words of port installed or even on anybody's lips at precipitous decline in false Bay to the point that when port installed it arrived on the scene by all intents and purposes the white shark was already a word that was used in historical terms.

1:47:18 And similarly at Dire Island if you go back and seriously interrogate that data their crash around Dire Island preempted port installed but coming on the scene so before you even start the whole orca argument I say how can you blame an animal that wasn't even on the crime scene but then to to explain away how two orca's could displace the world's biggest white shark population over a stretch of coast and the other one. There was stretch of coastline of well over a thousand kilometers if you go from Cape Town which is kind of the western extreme of what we watch are historically we're seeing although they actually used to be seen up the west coast as well up to the end of the kwazulu natal coast it it doesn't make sense on any level and certainly outdated doesn't show any correlation between that you know if you look at it in terrestrial environment it's like saying well two lions suddenly came into the Serengeti and every single leopard just left forever no these animals have got preferred feeding environments that they're not that many of and just because it pre another predator infrequently comes into that area you cannot simply abandon those areas in perpetuity so my very strong belief and it's shared by a couple of non-government shark scientists in South Africa is that the Natal sharks bought coupled to the demersal shark long line fishery and the Natal sharks are not that very were just too much pressure on an

1:48:48 animal that was already you know there were only let's call it a thousand out of them left to have roughly 60 70 white sharks being killed per annum every year that population could never sustain it and then when the walkers did come along you know I think that that additional pressure of roughly one per year because from 2017 to 2025 there were roughly 10 deaths attributable to the walkers that additional threat was just simply too much and yes people are still seeing the odd white shark in an area called since up the East Coast but I think you really are seeing you know in biological terms correct me if I'm wrong Dave and Andrew but one of the ways you look at a population decline is what's called the basin effect where populations contract from the outside inwards and I strongly believe those small white sharks small and mean and medium size white sharks that are left at sensor are the very few remaining white sharks we have in South Africa and certainly to no extent explain away the loss of a thousand white sharks and certainly false based population where we had very big white sharks so in a nutshell I don't believe that if you don't get rid of the the demersal shark long line fishery that creates very few jobs does nothing for food security in South Africa and is having a catastrophic effect now target and they're creating two species that are listed as critically endangered and endangered with a super and smooth hound

1:50:20 sharks if you don't get rid of that fishery and you don't start applying more non lethal methods than the Natal sharks board you will never see white sharks in South Africa anywhere near what I experienced and in all likelihood we might lose him forever. Yeah, Chris there's so much there I could try to there's so much there you said I could I could jump in and I'm going to just try to summarize a lot of stuff some of the some of the points you mentioned there. One of the things you mentioned is that you think she said is like and this is this is true people tend to think that white sharks only eat seal sea lions, you know the occasional dead whale. And I can tell you there there is actually and you'll know who this is but if anyone out there listening whether you're South African or not but if you go back and look at some of the publication series that John Bass Jeanette Dobri and that kiss the Sami did was published in the early to mid seventies classic stuff for when I was I kind of predated you a bit and look kind of really in the late eighties and it's hard to believe but we but.

1:51:25 At that time Leonard actually Leonard Kup on is my advisor he was on to this whole thing about these white sharks, particularly if they're under about three meters in length, they're feeding on sharks large bony fishes. They're not they're not they don't really start to get into the mammals until till their children over three three and a half meters and I'm every week I go I'm going to hold on dissertation this but basically they they transitioned their prey when they get larger but but the soup and sharks these hound sharks are their main prey item. And I was there at a time where white sharks are really common in the Western Cape. I mean, they were real abundant but also I used to go to all the rock and surf and light tackle ski boat things from everything from long a bond all the way right on up to the Casey and coast and you would see things like the lesser sand sharks the guitar fish stingrays the smooth hounds the must list the super and sharks those things were like really common to find in white shark even things you find small you find small bronzy small dusky as well in the stomach of the shark and John Bass had a lot of data on that.

1:52:45 I had the fortunate thing that I knew Leonard when he was in California working on the sharks of the world the FAO guide And he had a lot of data from California same type of pattern. So what you're saying about these sharks Their main and I this is where I really kind of really on board with you is that I think if you're removing Their prey items which are a lot of these sharks That's that's having an impact and that's kind of the thing I've been my lost shark program is really focused on looking for these things These sharks that are disappearing because nobody's generally looking at a muscle is out there. Nobody's paying Nobody's paying that much attention soup fin a little more But there's a lot of other sort of smaller sharks that nobody pays any attention to and you're talking also stingrays They're talking st. Joseph sharks chimeras. These are all things that are eaten by white sharks and other sort of higher level Sevegill sharks another example that are eating these things, but nobody's paying any attention those things That's again. I kind of been trying to raise the banner this for deck going back to when I was in this there and I know I've talked about I won't go into all this stuff today, but One of the things that South Africa was the first country to have protective measures against for white sharks started there was be it was driven by the fit bait big fishing companies Ervin and Johnson I and Jay and these are the they were the guys that really brought this up about we needed to protect the white sharks and I can go into the whole thing I won't go into now, but why they why that came about and I was involved with Leonard coming up with a lot of this data at the time So it's almost they've gone in the opposite direction

1:54:17 Where's now they're fishing and taking out these from talking to you cuz I haven't been there for decades now But a lot of these sharks are taking out have their populations have gone down now You're seeing the white sharks have probably had to move off to find better hunting grounds for them If I kind of kind of summarize it if the because that's what you're from what you're describing is a completely different situation Yeah Everyone always thinks you know my background is just white sharks, but it's not it's working with the check nets I did more than seven hundred and fifty different nettings with them that represents you know nearly two decades worth of going to those nets and I saw huge changes in what they catching there and When I started needing to make a living out of you know my passion my wife Monique and I we started running Another trip during our off-season because remember I mentioned that the white sharks around the seal colonies for five six months a year So now out of that time we used to work with other species of sharks and one of the trips We ran was a trip called sharks of Southern Africa Along a beautiful stretch of coastline about 300 kilometers east of Cape Town called to her and in those early days And it wasn't even the early days. This was really from about 2000 to 2015 or so It wasn't uncommon for us on most days to see 500 juvenile hammerheads And we used to see schools of you know maybe 100 200 together was incredible and we'd see you know on any given day

1:55:47 maybe 50 to 100 bronze waders I took photographs of two breaching at the same time and then further down We'd see all this all the smallest species of sharks and when these longliners started appearing It was almost overnight that they started disappearing and It didn't take much to put two and two together that you know They were catching huge numbers and we started raising the flag you know saying hey They're killing huge numbers of hammerheads here these animals are you know they threaten species This is a nursery area, but you know we were kind of laughed at this. You're not a scientist you know what kind of what do you know and what we started doing then is Investigating this more and more chatting to a few more locals that we're seeing what these boats were doing further up the coast And we saw the same thing happening there, and then in around about 2018 2019 you know by that stage We had lost the white sharks very sadly in false bay And it was devastating for for Monique and I and and our crew and all the other people that have become such passionate supporters and lovers of these animals that we decided we wanted to really assess the impact of of the shark longline fisheries so my wife and I sponsored the purchase of a vessel and Together with dr. Neil Hamish log who at that time was with the University of Miami He brought two master's students over from from Miami And we started looking at the efficacy of de Woop as a shark sanctuary And then the impact that this fishery was having on those animals that there was

1:57:19 never a boundary to a marine reserve There's no fences so the sharks don't know you know where the reserve ends or not What impact that this fishery was having on these various species of sharks because we believe that they were catching Thousands of protected hammerheads and at that stage the government was saying no They're not in fact if you go look at their data the data says no They're not they're catching pretty much zero, but what we found by replicating The the techniques that they were using in terms of the baits they were using and where they were fishing is that almost? one-for-one they would have been catching things like smooth hammerheads and things like spotted gully sharks Which is also protected and almost endemic shark species in South Africa and then all the little endemic species so you talk about things like puff out of shire sharks and brown shire sharks and striped cat sharks and leopard cat sharks and all those things What we started seeing is hey these guys have to be catching Hundreds if not thousands of them, you know because Purely because of their fishing techniques. So we published a paper on that saying, you know Yes, the reserve is very important But by the tagging data could we also used acoustic tags on the little hammerheads?

1:58:31 We could show that they had no clue where the boundaries of marine reserves were and unless you created a buffer on the edges of those reserves essentially you fish on the edge you catch what's on the inside as well and What we found from the the whistleblower when he came forward is, you know He corroborated exactly what the data showed and he spoke about them how they would catch the gully sharks and the smooth and the smooth Hammerheads simply cut off their heads cut off their fins and smuggle them into the catch and he spoke about the thousands of Endemic sharks that they caught and because they had no value They would just cut off their heads to get the hooks out because it was too much of a mission to now gently try and get A little hook out you either bash him senseless over the side of the boat and take the hooks out He'll cut their heads off and take the hooks out. So it didn't take much to realize that, you know, we losing a Huge part of our natural heritage here because of this highly destructive fishery and yes further up the coast You know like you Dave I also spent time in Langobon looking at those smooth iron sharks and In false bay with all those species and further up the coast And I'm sure people who were further up the coast could say the same thing What has happened to South Africa shark populations?

1:59:44 I know I'm sounding like a bloody prophet of doom here But the reality needs to be told is nothing short of catastrophic and if we have to look and I'm going to be Perfectly honest here if we have to look at how stocks have been managed in South Africa Despite many people saying it's amongst the best managed shark fishery in the world. Just look at the scoreboard We no longer have great one sharks You hardly see a blue shock the smith hamades are a fraction of what they were the endemic sharks have gone to to shite and you know species like the two primary target species the smith hound shark and the superman shark have gone from being listed as near threatened and I think that one with I think the smith hounds weren't even listed as threatened historically when the fishery started They now listed as endangered and critically endangered and we still have dedicated vessels Targeting a species that is imminently threatened with extinction. So for me, yeah, I am outspoken on this I'm very passionate about it And I believe we need to shut this fishery down if South Africa sharks are gonna have a choice You know, I think I think it'd be a interesting comparison again I just kind of have experience in both locations is you know in California back in 1994 We they passed their own sort of protection for white sharks here was that it was South Africa Australia and then California I was had a little bit of involvement in the California one but with but in from my experience and this is just qualitative Observational what really changed the

2:01:14 dynamics because we have just phenomenal white shark populations here in California We have I'm here in the Monterey area and we have just we have big pods of orcas out here And they occasionally get a white shark, but they have not slowed up the white shark population But what happened in the early 90s around the time they did the a couple things in the 70s They passed the marine mammal protection act which protected all the gray whales of seals sea otters But the other thing is in the early 90s they passed they moved it to tram on the gill nets further offshore They used to be in closer to shore where they they would they would catch halibut There's a targeted fishery, but that was but when they move and but nobody had it was paying any attention again In the early 90s. Nobody's paying attention like well How many white sharks they catching but they moved them offshore and there really is not much of a fishery?

2:02:02 I don't believe anymore, but they definitely moved them offshore and I think that combined with the marine mammal protection act probably did more to Enhance the white shark population because people if you listen to the show here I go out Here in the bay. I'll go up in the helicopter and up, you know We'll go along a two mile length of beach out here We'll count 40 little white sharks out here Kind of in that meter and a half to two and a half meter length side the small ones and there's literally They're sitting right in back of the surf line and there's hanging out there and that but you know What also occurs out there a lot of these sharks are talking about the hound sharks the the soup fin sharks a lot of the bat Rays they love bat rays all these things are this is all their habitat where they hang out and these sharks So I think you have in California where they move this fishery offshore Basically our population went up and here this fishery started up in South Africa and the population basically of these sort of mid-level sharks mid-level predator trophic level sharks disappeared and that's impacted probably the white sharks so they've you know, I Think it's just an interesting case from two locations that I don't know If you've talked to Chris low much he's got a better hand lot more.

2:03:17 He's been working on it for Longer and I have but I've just from I've just been around long enough to see what's been going on But it just seems to be a good Dual case study of what happens with you if you take out these sort of these different coastal small coastal shark species 100% I mean that you know, I hate South Africa to be that case in point because I also used to fly in the helicopters and You know, we'd see ten fifteen big, you know sub adult or adult great whites from Strandfentang to Musenburg And it was similar of cons by and you know that that sort of area and yes We are we are that tragic case study and yes South Africa on the 1st of April 1991 was the first country in the world to protect the the great white shark and I very sadly predict under the current Circumstances will be the first country in the world to lose a significant population of great white sharks And and for me those animals gave me everything and yeah It is a tragic case in point and that's why you know, we started off where I spoke about you know how I use my photography and story and This was one of the capitalists when I took the last ever significant photograph of a breaching great white at Seal Island I Kind of had been there from the beginning spend more than three and a half thousand days at sea with them. We recorded 10,496 predatory events and I took that last ever photo and that was in a space of you know, 22 years

2:04:48 And if you think about it, that was probably the most spectacular behavior those flying great white sharks ever seen by humans in the animals for many million year history and we lost them in 22 and If that is not an incredibly powerful story of how quickly this thing can really go tits up You know, I don't know what else is and yes you guys implemented measures that maybe by chance or by circumstance Aided the white sharks recovery. We've done exactly the opposite and You know, the ramifications are huge. We don't fully understand them Yes We did a paper I did a paper with Neil and a couple of other co-authors where we looked at the cascade effect of losing A white shock so we did two One we started looking at what happened at Seal Island and when the white sharks disappeared It was quite incredible almost overnight the seven gills a period so they filled the niche of the white sharks, but They don't hunt active seals and the seals in return because the white sharks were no longer there They changed their behavior very very quickly. So they used to have very very set anti-predatory Strategies they used to leave the island and well coordinated groups mostly at night And if they left in the day, they'll be highly structured that all fell apart They suddenly started feeding around the island and in areas where they hadn't previously fed So that will obviously have a cascade effect and then Neil did another comparative So there was a paper done and I think according to was 2010 or 2012

2:06:20 Where they looked at the species composition in false bed And that was at a time where we still had pretty decent numbers of white sharks we did the same study more than a decade later and so much of the composition of the bay had completely changed and You know we very strongly of a suspicion if you take out that apex predator Just like that famous paper where you remove the world wolves out of Yellowstone you take the great whites out of the picture. It has a huge cascade effect and It's very easy for me to say well now we've got seven girls there and the seals You know don't do what they used to do and they feeding in different areas But what are the smaller cascade effects that I've got no clue of?

2:07:01 You know well I think I Say I think you're hitting on the whole thing like everybody's focused on the white shark for example And that's not where you need to be looking that's not you know It's it's you need to be looking at these other sharks that you're talking about like the the hound sharks The soup fin sharks and you know we're not even really taught the rays are important like that The bull rays and I mean I can I know white sharks love to eat and those they snap those things up here in California and I know they do in South Africa, so you're not even here. We're talking about the these these hound sharks We're not even talking about like the freaking rays out there and stuff and and I can tell you cuz a lot of the people here Go back to about you know 2000 or so early 2000s with the white shark stuff I go back to the 80s and like places like Miller's point out there the boulders net area out there I dove all over that place for over a year looking at studying the the cat sharks You never saw a seven-gill never saw a seven-gill, but white sharks They were around but never saw a seven-gill out and now that's like I talked to people like Allison cock and Allison town they're real common out there the seven gills, but I Crawl and I was studying seven gills So believe me if there's a seven-gill around off Miller's point I would have seen it back then Not that they didn't catch him once in a while, but you just never saw him diving sure You know so I think that's the kind of exactly, you know, there's so little baseline data out there and I think it's so important to have that as a reference point and like you say, you

2:08:31 know in the in the early mid 90s You know another very well respected scientist colleague of yours Malcolm Smale is working with Marcel cruiser and they were doing a study to see the viability of actually longline fishing in South Africa and the catch rates of things like smooth hounds and false baes to be amongst the highest ever recorded and You know your garden you'll be catching smooth hounds of like 30 kilograms It was unheard of these ginormous things that were you know nearly my height 1.6 1.7 meters I used to see him I can vouch for that I exactly Yeah, they no longer exist and I think you know I sit on a terrestrial level to in fact I was just talking to someone just a few days ago about how few insects we now see in Cape Town and other areas and Everyone thinks I'll keep down so beautiful and it is beautiful. Don't get me wrong. Oh, yeah I think what we really are overlooking is what's happening at the bottom of the food chain, you know Insects used to be everywhere because when we drive when we go photograph in Botswana or Namibia or Zimbabwe we we're driving, you know, two three four thousand kilometers often and In the early days your windshield you are constantly complaining because you have to stop at the garage and have your windscreen Cleaned with all the insects that used to hit nowadays. I can almost do an entire trip without cleaning a windscreen So yeah, I think I think I think this is a real and I wish I had a larger podium to tell these stories on you

2:10:02 Know in terms of all of us that we could stand in front of the bloody United Nations and say hey We need to catch a wake up here because we are shifting Ecosystems and if you think you know I now know I'm going on my usual crazy Tangent here, but if you think that phytoplankton Provides 50% of the goddamn oxygen we breathe I think it's quite important to look off to the base of the food chain percent Losing a white shock is a bloody a bloody big thing you know, we've lost the lines of Africa in our marine ecosystem in South Africa and I think these are big things that need to be spoken about I think they're big things that need to be addressed, you know Yeah, you all of us have had the most incredible lives and we could simply sit back in our chairs and say hey Hey, check these photos check these experiences, you know whoopee Yeah, but by having virtue of having these incredible experiences We know what it can be and the generation before us knew what it could be as well And I really hope my generation was going to be the one to say hey, it's better than than dads or grandpas But right, right right, yeah Unfortunately, we yeah, I reach people. I didn't mean to touch what's happening Yeah, and I agree with you. I think we've seen this unfortunately time and time again, you know Here in Canada, we saw it with the with the cod stocks that just collapsed, you know in the early 90s But it wasn't that they just collapsed out of nowhere. We had data scientists and fishery scientists telling You know government officials as well as the fishery industry as well as other

2:11:33 scientists that hey look We've seen this this decline in in fisheries data and the stock assessments That's why we do stock assessments to see where there's decline and we're supposed to change the management with that I think we're seeing the same thing here and unfortunately we've seen the same thing elsewhere You know in other places around the world. It's not just you know unique to South Africa where it's easy to Put blame solely on orcas coming in to that are that are that may kill a bunch of Great whites within a specific session of maybe a few days or a week or so that probably not helping the situation, but there's been years of Neglect of looking after the data and and and illegal fishing and on on both the top and the bottom of the food chain We know sharks are our apex predators But a lot of times we don't talk about the sharks that are in the middle of the food chain how important they a role They play and I can't even imagine how their disappearance has changed the rest of the food web You know below them and above them and and seeing that and that takes monitoring that takes data and that takes Time and money to put together. I think sometimes it's easy to Say no, that's not what it is It's these orcas that are coming through because it's a visual you know the the people can see it like oh, yeah They're killing a lot of great whites, but you don't see the data Exactly. Yeah, it's usually it's the stuff That's you know down at the down at the bottom that you know the headlines that are you know in the in a maybe a paper Or something it's the lost sharks. It's

2:13:04 the lost literally. It's it's that's That's that's literally what it is exactly and it's and his papers like like what you would you have have contributed to and put out? with with Neil and others over the years and and other people who have contributed to to This sort of I guess narrative of a story And it gets it gets amplified through through this podcast. Hopefully as well. You know we just had Christian pardon We mentioned just before the interview. He just did a video on it Looking at at both sides and seeing like hey This is the big debate But it's probably not the orcas is probably the lack of fisheries data and the lack of fisheries monitoring or illegal fishing on on Both sides and just overfishing on those on those lost sharks on those smaller sharks that have actually contributed to that so I guess the question here is I Think there's there's there's enough to kind of there's enough data and enough of a story to look into You know the monitoring of these fisheries Chris like from from your perspective as we kind of finish off this episode How is the government responded over the years and even now that there's more?

2:14:12 attention towards This side of the debate and not as much as orca I mean I may think that if there's more attention now to this side of the argument where we're seeing in the fisheries aspect Have how they responded? to to to these papers as well as a lot of a lot of Prominent people coming out and saying hey we need to look at this aspect and see if there's something that's going on here We'll have Chris we'll have you back on a wine job That's a teaser for the next time we free that won't be four years. I assume they haven't responded Positively to this to this argument and really relying on on the orcas But have they come around or or at least you know?

2:15:02 Shown a sign of like hey, you know what maybe we need to look into this more or they just completely cutting it off No, so the orcas still maintain the primary focus of the government related shark scientists And and the people that support them and the non-government scientists very firmly say hey We need to address things like the natal sharks board and we need to address things like the demersal shark longline fishery and unfortunately the non-government scientists don't have the sway and they don't have the Option to make management decisions and so we sit in this terrible situation and as an as a non-scientist I kind of have seen it from from both sides And yeah, it's a terrible impasse that we sit at and the reality is if you blame the orcas You kind of are exonerated for bad mismanagement and you don't have to do anything about it because we can't do anything about the orcas and Right, you know, this has been my issue all along is that?

2:15:56 Whether whether I'm right or I'm wrong Let's address the issues that we can address of course and those are the anthropogenic issues We can't do anything about the bloody orcas, you know, they need to do what they need to do It's a natural phenomenon as Dave said the orcas have been predated on white sharks at the Farallon Islands at the Neptune Islands It's a Stewart Islands. It's it's not unique to South Africa and the white sharks haven't disappeared there So hello, there should be a bell ringing there straight away Yeah, we can address a fishery that is targeting for God's sake critically endangered species Bringing in no money no food security and exported to Australia for fish and chips where they should not be eating these animals So yeah, we need in my very humble opinion We need to get our asses in the gear and really start. Yeah, make your difference where we can Correct Chris. I want to thank you for for coming on and kind of giving us more like an update on on on what data has come out And what we've been able to to discover.

2:16:55 I think this is a really important issue You know, we're going to continue to discuss it as we go forward I'd love to have you back on not only to talk about about this and updates and as well with your colleagues I'm sure we'll have on to but also about your amazing photography where people can go to Chris fallows dot-com to take a look because Again, like we said, they're they're absolutely amazing and you've been able to tell a story and give back You know to to the environment as well and I think next time Dave when we have them back on we'll talk about I believe it's the the Land you're buying in Namibia and yeah, that's going in the sanctuary It's going so but I think it's going to be absolutely phenomenal. So thank you Chris for joining us I really do appreciate you you giving us an update and being on the show and can't wait to have you back Andrew Dave, thank you. Thank you again and thank you for what you're doing to elevate these issues and and just a quick shout out for me to All scientists who put their heads out of the foxholes and stand up for what is right and try make a difference to those animals That have given them their careers. So thank you all and look forward to being back the next time whether you put me in the pot I've got the ladle Absolutely, thank you. Thank you Chris again for coming on the podcast We really love you here at the Beyond Jaws on the Beyond Jaws podcast It is wonderful to have you on again and be able to talk about your new Photography sort of quest. I guess not new I guess he's been on this on an op and less on white sharks more on on land and

2:18:27 coming up with you know Being able to have this buying up land in Namibia to be able to have these sanctuaries I think is just absolutely wonderful. What a way to give back for a career that has been very rewarding for him And I just think that I love when you get people who are so into Nature that they want to give back as much as possible and he's doing it the way he sees him and his wife are doing It the way they see fit and so we also talked about having Either his wife on this podcast or on the how to protect the ocean podcast or both To be able to talk about what she's been up to and so that'll be fun as well But we talked about as we said at the beginning we talked about great whites orcas fit overfishing and what is causing the decline or even the shift in movement of Great whites in South Africa and so we got a lot of information on The on the overfishing aspect of it and look like I'm a scientist Usually what happens when you when you look at this kind of stuff?

2:19:28 One thing is it's usually not just one thing. It's usually not just orcas It's usually not just overfishing, but you're looking at different scales here, right? Dave You're looking at overfishing happens over a long term long long term scale and then orcas could happen in You know very short term they can come in in a matter of hours We're we're you know, we've decreased the shark population by three to ten You never know how how efficient these these hunters are and and so you can see it as more of an acute type of Effect where they come in they take a lot and they leave and then you have this long-term effect where it's difficult for the population To recover after these other effects and then of course you have climate change and you have other things that are going on with these sharks, so, you know as as a scientist, how do you Untangle this huge web to be like to attribute to one or the other or more or the other do you just say hey?

2:20:22 We all need to pitch in This is a multi-facet thing I mean there were I mean there were orcas around here when I was when I was Doing my thing back in the day in South Africa, which you know, they weren't real common But you you'd see orca you'd see orcas you see if you'd see them out there occasionally and stuff and but there was plenty of white sharks at that time as well and As I as I said, you know prior to the interview like if you go back into the 50s and 60s White sharks were far more common on the East Coast at the time and I don't think people really I think they knew they were Here in the West Coast, but they were really common there And then when I was kind of when I came along later on they weren't didn't seem to be as common on the East Coast And whereas today they're fairly common.

2:21:07 So I think think I think a lot of these other people looking at the stuff now They go back 20 maybe 25 years Probably, you know and things started may have started changing and so I think you have to go back You know go back 60 70 years because there is information back to the 50s And what was going on there and see if you see if you can notice any Changes or trends and you can also find out things like you know like I know people have told me there's been a shift where you have cooler waters now in the Western Cape than Before it used to be you know, not that it was ever really warm But it was like you have cooler waters there and I know some other shark species Have migrated further East than they were in the past. And so I think these are the kind of things I always talk about that Things like these lost sharks these little known species They're gonna tell you more about what's going on than things like white sharks because by the time you start noticing at the white shark level there's probably a whole bunch of stuff that's already gone on and That's what I always try to emphasize and I don't know how I know some people pick up on that and other people not sure Yeah, I'm just not sure if people really have grasped onto that that you need to be looking for at these lost sharks Because they're gonna be in dick more indicative of the health the marine environment than the white sharks are Yeah, no, absolutely. I think that's something important to note and you know, this this debate goes on. I think that the the difficulty of all of this is The the action that doesn't get taken because you know

2:22:37 Potentially and this is all allegedly because I don't know the the full situation according to Chris Where the government's not taking action because they're saying it's that it's the orcas And so that makes it a difficult aspect because you're like, well hold on a second Like we should be worrying about fishing should be at least monitoring it a little bit better making sure that we know what's available What's not the irony is that you know, you know this could you hear me talk about before? But the whole thing about the white shark Protection back in 1990 1991 which I was involved with it was driven by the commercial fishing industry That's who drove the and that's and a lot of people leaving the people I talked they didn't realize that That they there was it was it was it was a it was the commercial fishing industry drove the whole white shark protection thing and then and so I think that's a that's an important aspect of this whole story that The the fishing community was the ones that got behind it And I know I've been out of it So I'm not as plugged in with them as I used to be at the at the time or what's going on there and the government's obviously changed considerably from from You know back then I knew all the players like on a personal level.

2:23:47 I knew them pretty well now I don't know any of the people there now because it's been well It's been like whatever 35 years since I lived there and so you don't really say I don't really have the same connection there but But I always think it's an important aspect that like I said, it was the commercial fishing industry drove the whole Conservation movement for white sharks. So what's going on now? I mean, it's certainly it's easy to say like well, it's too orca's are wiping out the population There's nothing we can do about it Versus actually spending some time and energy to figure out what it is And I think it all comes down to sort of type of leadership and I again because I knew the people On the government side of stuff at the time. They were guys that took action They were action type people that took that, you know, they talked to they had relationships with the commercial fishing industry and they Took action and did stuff for words. I today I can't I don't want to be critical because I just I don't know the players on that side of it these days, so It's it's a I mean, that's it I think the thing is to is you got to take the emotion out of it, too, right?

2:24:46 It's not because of any one person It's not because they're called if if they are looking at the science and they see you science saying one thing and then they see Science saying another that's worse. This is where science thrives is in the debate is in the critiques It's it's it gets better because of it you know the I think the What I would like to see is those scientists coming together and doing a study together to be like where can it be? Sometimes that doesn't happen Well, because one's government one's academia or vice versa or maybe they're from a different part And so there's a little there's politics that get involved in some cases, right? Yeah, like I said, there's politics involved There's funding aspects of it You know the the the orca to orca is wiping out the white shark population It's a much sexier story than saying than saying like well, we might be overfishing Some of these lower level some of these law sharks I say lower level but these law sharks that nobody's paying any attention to the hound sharks and a lot of the rays Which nobody ever thinks about the rays usually but these things the these things are fed on by white sharks People don't realize that they think seals sea lions bring out But young white sharks at least up until they get to be about, you know, three three and a half meters They mostly eat other sharks and rays that's their mate. That's their stable And if those things are removed that's going to impact the population because they're not going to you're not going to have as many getting to maturity Or they're going to leave the area and go somewhere else where there is food And so you and so you so you have to think about those things and that's good

2:26:17 That's gonna be a tougher sell than saying oh, it's two orcas. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely But I mean in in science is never usually just one thing So I think you know people have to look outside the box and see what else it could be climate change, you know fisheries movement Yeah, it happened. It could be any if not all probably all and it's difficult to kind of untangle that which one's having the most Effect but regardless that's what makes science so great It's and and challenging at the same time And so it's great to be able to have Chris on to be able to discuss that and I'm sure this was not the end of Our coverage of this and it will have some other people on like you said Allison town or Allison cock as well To be able to discuss a little bit about that as well as other stuff that they're up to and we'll get them on Soon enough to be able to have this ongoing conversation on orcas versus great whites and other things So it'll be a lot of fun, but we want to thank Chris for joining us and spending time with us today He's always been so great with that and lending his his stories You know his his ability to photograph some amazing amazing wildlife and well just being a great human being so it's always great to have him on And Dave, thank you so much if people want to get in touch with you. How would they do?

2:27:32 It's at lost shark guy on Instagram also on YouTube and Be sure to check out YouTube YouTube channel the series and or I've been working on searching for lost sharks extinct or alive Episode 5 on River sharks is up now Please check it out and please subscribe And if you want to go to those any of those links We'll have them in the show notes so you can check that out or in the description below depending on where you're watching this And of course if you want to get a hold of me You can go to at beyond jaws pod or you can go look at our YouTube channel at beyond jaws podcast on YouTube Thank you so much for joining us on today's episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. Have a great day We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation