How Sophie Maycock’s New Book is Changing the Way We See Sharks

1:00:00 This is a bonus episode here on the Beyond Jaws podcast. We're gonna be talking to Sophie Maycock about her book. Let me put it in front here. Shark, a illustrated biography. If you thought you knew things about sharks, you might wanna take a look at this book because I think some of the information here will surprise you. And we're gonna talk all about that, especially the way that sharks have been presented in this book, not your typical book that you would think for sharks. So this is gonna be a fun episode. Let's get started with the show. Hey everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. A bonus episode. I'm your co-host Andrew Lewin here with my other co-host, Dr. David Ebert.

1:00:40 Dave, are you ready to talk about sharks today? Oh, absolutely. Especially we got a new shark book coming out. That's always a great one. And having Sophie Maycock on, she's just electric, was amazing. Oh yeah. It's gonna be an amazing interview. And I didn't really know her that much other than through social media and stuff. And of course her co-author Dan Abel, I've known for quite a few years. But yeah, I'm really looking forward to this one. Her episode talking a little bit about her background and how she got into doing the sharks. And I don't want to give away the episode, but listeners- Exactly. Super interesting how she got interested in doing the, doing this book and everything. So I hope you enjoy it.

1:01:21 I really hope you enjoy it and definitely check out this episode. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. This is something that we all love to talk about, Dave, with the amount of books that you've written. And then of course, having Sophie for some who's writing of her first book, or who's written now, who had written her first book with a little legendary Daniel Abel, who we've had on the podcast before. So it's a lot of fun to be able to talk about how this all came to be, what came out of it, and then what she has planned for the future. We talk all about that in this interview. So here's the interview with Sophie Maycock. Enjoy and we'll talk to you after. Hey Sophie, welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast. Are you ready to talk about sharks? I've always already talked about sharks.

1:02:01 I love it. Well, welcome everybody to another episode of Beyond Jaws podcast. We have a special bonus episode today with the fabulous Sophie Maycock as our guest to talk about her new book, Shark, the Illustrated Biography that she co-authored with Dan Abel, who was on the podcast last year and he's a professor at the Coastal Carolina University. Sophie is a specialist shark specialist and science communications expert who founded and runs a public outreach project, SharkSpeak. After earning her bachelor's degree in biological sciences and a master's in evolution, biodiversity and conservation, Sophie specialized in marine conservation and shark behavior. She's participated in a wide range of research projects and presented her work at several scientific conferences around the world.

1:02:46 She gained experience studying sharks in the lab and in the field in South Africa, Australia, the Netherlands and the Bahamas. And then after moving back to her home country of England, she now turned her attention to sharing her passion for sharks through various outreach projects. Shark speak has an extensive social media presence and Sophie also conducts public education events at bookshops, schools and universities. And this work has culminated in the book we're going to talk about today. Shark, the Illustrated Biography. Her background is she did her bachelor's degree at the University of East Anglica and her master's at University of Leiden. And Sophie, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me, guys. It's so great to be here. Cool. Well, you got to ask you if everybody wants to know, like, how do you get interested in sharks?

1:03:31 By accident is the short version. The long version is that when I was a teenager, I had no idea what I wanted to do. I loved literature and I loved science and I didn't know what to do. So I decided I'll take a year out and I will go and travel to find myself, you know, like all teenagers say. But it ended up actually working out because I thought I'll volunteer somewhere. I picked randomly and I picked a great white shark diving experience in South Africa. And it was I only chose it because I thought I'd sound cool. I thought all my friends will think I'm really brave. But it really it really was a life changing moment, though.

1:04:13 When I saw my first shark in the wild, I just had this amazing magical moment of like, oh, wow, everything I thought about these animals was completely wrong. And from that moment on, I decided I wanted to help other people understand why what they think about sharks is wrong. Were you down were you down at Muscle Bay or a cons by or when? Yes, it was that Hans by in South Africa. Yeah. OK, I have to ask. I've spent a lot of time and lived in South Africa. I got I know all these like I had to ask where you were exactly. You went there. So that must have been quite a credit credit thing. Right. Jumping right into the white shark stuff pretty quickly from not.

1:04:53 You grew up in it. Yeah, you grew up in England. Correct. Yeah. With the least watery background possible near Oxford in the landlocked center of England, you know, no sharks to be seen anywhere apart from on Attenborough shows. So, yeah, completely unlikely. But here I am. Was that your first encounter like when you watched Attenborough, you know, do his thing? Was that what made you really understand? OK, this is what I want to do or this is where I want to explore a little more. I always suspected I wanted to do something in science.

1:06:15 So I always suspected I might go into that. Right. You know, when I was learning myself, so it was a bit of a trial by fire, really. Yeah, but that was an interesting way when you speak to the public about sharks compared to learning about the science of sharks, the anatomy, the physiology, the genetics and even the ecology. You really start to understand what people want to know about the animal to write. Did you find that when you were when you were doing those tours? For sure. And what I love about what I do now is, you know, I do a lot of science communication stuff now. Yeah. And the reason I fell in love with it is because the public asked the most incredible questions. Right.

1:06:55 Amazing the things people come up with. And I find myself going to know what I don't know the answer. I'm going to have to research that I get back to you. And you don't get those questions from people in scientific world. You get a whole new sort of wonder from people that aren't in the field, which is just inspiring. Absolutely. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So you went. So after you did Australia, you've been you made it to Australia and the Bahamas, which are kind of some of the nicer places to go as far as sharks. But also the Netherlands. Don't forget that. I just read the Netherlands. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I did a lot of volunteer work. I just thought, you know, this is something I want to do. I'm just going to anywhere I go. I'm just going to sort of see if there's anything I can do to volunteer in the lab, in the field anywhere.

1:07:45 And it sort of brought me on this sort of circuitous path all around the houses to to where I am now. So quite a strange way into academia. Yes. So I had all these experiences that kind of like that really got you like, OK, I want to be able to communicate about sharks and everything. And so and so how did how did you wind up coming back? Well, besides being your home country, how did you end up coming going back to England? Well, that was really quite an important moment as well, because I finished my master's and I was thinking I'm going to start applying for PhDs. You know, my career is flying and I came home to England and 11 days later, we went into the covid lockdown. Oh, yeah. So I was. Oh, yeah.

1:08:29 So I was in my 30s in my parents house thinking, oh, my God, I'm now trapped in England for who knows how long. And I was losing my mind a bit in my house. So I I thought, well, I can't do a PhD right now unless I put some sharks in my bath. So I thought, you know, we always talk about reaching out to the public. Why don't I just start doing it? And I just started writing articles and I started setting up my website and I started meeting the public online. And I thought, actually, this is really fun. And I started really enjoying it. And so I started shark speak and it's just exploded. And now it's sort of become my passion, really.

1:09:09 I'm not even in the field with sharks that often I'm online talking to the public about sharks, which is amazing. Wow. Yeah. That's super interesting. Turn in that situation into such an outreach. So at that point in time, did you have like a very large network of people that you knew in the shark world at all? I did. Yeah, because I've been going to conferences throughout my master's. So I've met a few different people, which was amazing. And they really inspired me, you know. So I did have a network, which was great, but I found most of it all sort of just came from social media is so powerful. You can go on there and you can meet people all over the world and communicate this, you know.

1:09:50 And I had no idea that it would be as far reaching as it has become. If you just if we just use it for good, right? Just social media for good. That we're okay. Yes. If only, right? What a perfect world. I think it's interesting, you know, you go into, you know, obviously a global pandemic. We all went into that definitely changed a lot of people's career paths, you know, including including yours. And all of a sudden you find yourself, OK, I've got to build a site. I've got to build a bigger presence. I've got to start like looking at educational tools. You know, how did you like figure out like like, did you just kind of like, I'm just going to see what happens. Like, I'm just going to see like, did you go in as this? This is going to be my business.

1:10:37 This is going to be my like full time thing. And so I'm going to think about making money off of it. Or is this going to just be something that I'm going to build my profile, you know, figure out what people need in the in the, you know, like with the public and start building that as a profile. And then after this pandemic or as it starts to sub like subside, then I'll just kind of resume back to what I was going to do and, you know, follow that that dream of doing a PhD or working within within the like the research field or things like that. So, you know, obviously a lot happened in the last five years for you as well as as as the world. Like when you went into it, did you think of like, this is going to be my full time thing or I'm just going to do this as a way to keep me busy?

1:11:20 Honestly, the latter, it was just I was losing my mind locked in my house. I wanted to keep my mind sharp and keep that science mind sharp as well. Keep on top of, you know, the findings and what's happening. And I thought I just want to just throw it against the wall and see what sticks. And it just became something that I found I really enjoyed. And, you know, even now, it's not something that I mean, I would love it to be my full time job that I can do day in day out. But, you know, I'm not quite at the point where I can quit my day job yet. But I still do it because I just love doing it. And I love the research. I love the writing. And I love getting feedback from the people.

1:12:02 I love getting feedback from the people who, you know, I met somebody recently who said, you know, my daughter is five and she loves sharks and she's so inspired to see a woman in the field and I was amazing. You know, I'm inspiring a young girl. So yeah, I think actually, I don't know if I will ever go back into like hardcore academia because I wouldn't say no. But equally, is it where my love is now? You know, is it where the passion is now? I'll be honest, I followed a very similar passion, like it was the same village, same path, you know, it's doing the podcast and and talking about science and conservation with a lot of other people.

1:12:45 It's how Dave and I met and we started this podcast. It was it changes. It changes your life. And when you realize, like, this is fun, I really enjoy doing this and I can help a lot of people just like that five year old girl. And I'm sure there's probably more, more of those stories of all ages to be able to say I help people either get over their fear sharks or really satisfy that curiosity of, you know, the different types of sharks. And like, I'm on your website right now as we as we speak and all these different photos and infrared like little tidbits of information just even before you even click on a on an image. And it's just like, oh, this is really cool. You know, and and so, yeah, I really love love that aspect. But then, you know, you have this this website, you have these, you know, on the website, there's articles, there's fast facts. So you're writing a lot about sharks.

1:13:35 What made you decide to be like, oh, yeah, now I'm going to just I'm going to just write a book because, you know, I can do this stuff. Yeah. Yeah, we all have a book of this. This is great. You know, this is the funniest story because it was the weirdest sort of simpatico moment where I thought, you know, I've got a lot of content online now. Yeah, maybe I can turn into a book. I wonder if I could do that. And it was so strange. And about a week later, literally within days, I got this email to my inbox and this Dan Abel. And, you know, I've got all Dan's books, I know Dan is somebody, you know, I was fan girling over this email being like, oh my goodness, it's Dr. Abel.

1:14:23 And he's saying, you know, I'm writing this book and it's going to be something different to anything else that is out there. And I think I need a unique, you know, new voice on it. Would you be interested? And I swear I didn't think it was him. I thought it was somebody catfishing me. And when we I was like, when we go on to a zoom, it's going to be like a 50 year old woman in Africa, you know, I think it's not going to be Dan Abel. And it was it was him. And so he found me through my site and he enjoyed the tone of my writing and sort of the passion and, you know, the love, which is what Dan has as well. So it's about being a scientist about this about love. And that was why he offered me, you know, co-author on the book. And it was crazy because as we started writing it, you cannot tell who wrote which piece, you know, I read chapters and I'm like, this could be your Dan, we've got exactly the same.

1:15:23 Nice. Yeah. So it worked out so well. And then all of a sudden you see you keep building and building and building, you start getting more and more viewers and more and more people to come. And then all of a sudden people within your industry start to like within your field recognize it. And then somebody who you've read for a long time comes out out of nowhere, you know, and it and and for me, that's the same thing that's happened to me where some people like I have no business knowing this person and they contacted me, you know, to come on the podcast or what and you're just like, holy cow.

1:16:21 It's like, you know, it's it's amazing. It's an amazing feeling, but it's also you put yourself out there to and then an opportunities came. I think that I think a lot of people that I meet that want to get into the ring conservation field or do something within that field. They tend to sit around and not do anything about it. Right. It's start a website, start a channel, start something to talk about and show your passion. Yeah. And you may or may not get rewarded for it, but likely some opportunities going to come up that you may or may not have ever expected. Like, did you ever think you were going to write a book? I mean, I would in my wildest dreams, you're thinking about it, I guess. Yeah. Well, it's like, you don't think that that's really going to happen, you know? Right.

1:17:05 And for all those years, I mean, because it was years of putting in hours and graphs and thinking no one's going to see it, you know, putting an article up and you get 30 views and you're like, it's not going anywhere. Yes. And I think it's gone in and I doing this project, I really realized that I was like, you've got to go out there and chase it down because it isn't going to come to you. Right. You've got to keep going, keep going, fail, get up, keep going, fail again. And I made mistakes along the way where I was like, oh, that was bad. That was an embarrassment. I need to take that down and redo that. But it's a process. And then eventually at the end, you're like, looking back, you're like, wow, like I've actually achieved something. And, you know, what could have been the word?

1:17:56 What could have been the worst years of my life, but that, you know, with the pandemic and everything, I mean, I think the reason that it was so important to me as well is I think the mental health is, you know, locked in the house was not good for me. I really need to be productive. I get that. So, you know, sharks beat kind of helped me as much as, you know, as much as I enjoyed it, it saved me a little bit as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So with your with all you know, now that you're a famous published author on the shark book, maybe even just said that guy. This will be the trailer for the episode. Yeah. Mark that.

1:18:41 And just every Princeton University Press is published in the book. That's the same as done. My sharks, the world book and my field guide as well. So that's in the world. Dave, I love those books so much. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So Princeton, please, every post this when it comes out. Yes. Come on, Princeton. Come on. Come on. One of my books. Yeah. No, they had. But no, it's a it's a really nice book. No, I had to add. I checked it. I was checking out. You had you got an illustrator involved in doing with the we did. Yeah. And it was Princeton found this illustrator. And oh, my goodness. Did he bring this to life? We actually the book was supposed to be out before Christmas last year. And Dan and I were quite disappointed because they said, oh, we're going to have to delay it because the artist isn't ready. But now I'm like, I'm so glad we delayed it.

1:19:33 Because what a job he's done is beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's it's very nice. It's a very nice book. It's really nice. It covers a lot of a lot of ground in the book as well. And it's totally, totally cool. And it is out now, right? It came out. It's out now. It's a book that I wanted to write something that I wished I'd had when I first realized I was in sharks. Yeah, because, you know, we wanted to.

1:20:19 I think that we have to target this intelligent members of the public, which is a huge amount of the public. I think some shark books are a bit patronizing and there's there's a lot for kids. And then there's books for scientists. And I wanted something in the middle that like the intelligent young adults and curious adults who want to learn about this without it being too heavy and still being fun and light and interesting. But got a lot of the science in there in a way that people can understand it. Because if we're if people can't understand it, then scientists are failing because we should be communicating it better. So we wanted to write something with that kind of tone that's fun and funny. And there's a lot of little puns in there. We had a great time writing the chapter headings. As you can tell, we've got my partner will be very proud because Jurassic shark made it in there, which was his idea. Yeah, so you know, we got some great little puns in there with which me and Dan really, really enjoyed. That's where we got to have a bit of personality with it as well. Yeah.

1:21:17 Yeah, that's a lot of fun. It's nice. Nice. You able to do that stuff. Yeah. So yeah. So you you've been out on the on a book tour now doing some talks and yeah, promote it. Yeah, absolutely. But I'm I'm open to more. So if anybody wants to get in touch, I'm doing some sort of like some sort of nights out with the public in book shops and things. But I'm also starting to go into some primary schools and some secondary schools and into universities as well to sort of talk to kids about this stuff. Which I'm really excited about. Yeah, so it's really cool to actually like, you know, I've been doing this online for so long. I think it's kind of it's kind of surprising for people to be like, Oh, you're actually a real person. I can actually. Please do come and talk to me.

1:22:03 You do exist. Yeah. So now that you've actually written a book now, do you think you write another one? I have started a second one. I actually started before the first one even came out. Yeah. And I'm sort of looking to shop that around soon. I haven't finished it about halfway through. But yeah, I am writing a second one. Okay. Okay. Is this what is the same thing that is geared towards younger people or just out anyone there? It's going to be geared sort of towards adults. And it is I really want to write about what it feels like to be a shark and the experiences that sharks have in their world and how they feel and see and what their brains are like. And do they have a way to communicate? And I want people to realize we're so past this old outdated idea that sharks are stupid, cold, mindless.

1:22:58 Yeah. Yeah. It's time for people to know the truth. Well, you know, well, this June, you'll be 50 years from since Josh came out. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I should say I'm embarrassed, but I was I actually saw the movie when it came out 50 years ago. So I'll leave it at that. But it was kind of like I've been around a long time, Dave. But like I say, well, at least at least your co-author in this book, Dan, he was around too. So Dan's a little older than me. So so I feel young. So I feel young with that company there. And so yeah, it should be a good opportunity to like promote some of this with the jaws coming out and see where things have gone.

1:23:46 What a change. I mean, 50 years. But what a change, right? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, I like say, yeah, it's funny to me because like you guys weren't even born when the when the movie came out. And when did it come out? Seventy seven. Seventy five. Oh, yeah. My brother was born. I was three years later. Yeah. Yeah. Close. Yeah. You're you're a close. Sophie was like, wasn't even in the planning. I was non-existent. You weren't even your parents like plans at all. Yeah, I'm sure your parents were even married at that time. Probably not. Yeah. In fact, I'm pretty sure my dad took a date to the film Jaws and she asked him how they trained the shark to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I'm fairly certain that he's told me that story before. So there you go. Interesting.

1:24:34 Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just I just wanted a bunch of my hooligan thug teenage friends to come in and talk to me about the story. I just wanted a bunch of his cousins because I was at that age where our mom our moms dropped to soft to watch movies. So yeah. So a horror film. Yeah, well, I grew up in Monterrey. So it was like, you know, I was diving and surfing and stuff at that point. So like shark, you just knew sharks were around to be an occasional sharky Sierra texts. You didn't think. But people that came in from like out of the area, it was a bigger deal. If they saw a shark or something. It was more the sensational stuff you read about or hear about. Yeah, that would be highlighted, there was highlighted there. But if you grew up in Monterrey. If that saved, I mean, usually someone inochemistry was, they could don't explain. Yeah, I mean, an afternoon where you don't take off a fire in an individualASED video in Lab tan next to the you're here about, yeah, that would be highlighted there. It was highlighted there, but if you grew up around the ocean, you just, you know, sharks are around, you know, sometimes things happen.

1:25:15 It's that mystery of something you don't know, right? It's an alien thing, so it creates, it gets bigger in your mind when it's so distant, right? Well, yeah, the thing at the time too is like you, there was no, you couldn't even like, especially when you're a young person, and we knew nothing about sharks, to say you didn't know anything about it would be an understatement at the time. You knew nothing about them, so you'd think like, even things like I always tell the story, like, you know, the big, one of the climactic scenes of the shark jumping on the boat and eating Quint, you know, back then people thought it was crazy, oh, sharks can't jump. And there was, you know, so, so it was, yeah, I mean, you literally thought like, you know, I mean, I knew a lot of the big imp, you know, prominent people, like, well, I didn't know him at the time I was in high school, but you know, years later, I got to know Leonard Campagno and Don Nelson and, uh, Sonny Gruber and all those guys.

1:26:08 No one really thought sharks could jump at all. No. And, uh, Only fur seals. Only fur seals. Yeah, only fur seals. And yeah, and I, I know I've told the story many times in the episode, but I remember seeing the first time I saw it in South Africa, the local people in South Africa knew about it, but nobody in the outside world did because nobody had filmed. This is before Chris Fallows. And, um, I remember telling people like the people I mentioned and Macott, I thought it was nuts or drunk or stoned or something. And then, and then if, then after I left South Africa, Chris Fallows filmed it and suddenly everybody's going, Hey, Dave, you know, these white sharks breach. And I'm like, yeah, I kind of told you that like, you know, five years ago. But why are we not listening to the, You just didn't do it in a nice photograph, like, uh, like Chris Fallows or, or, uh, you know, a shark week, uh, Jeff courage. Yeah, Jeff courage stuff.

1:26:58 But that, yeah. So, but anyway, but I think I just said that, and it's really a little reminiscent, but it's like just how far we've come in the 50 years now you've got these fabulous books like, like you're doing now. And you know, there's a lot of certainly see a lot of, a lot of women in the field. And it's just been a, the field, the fields just come so far from, from that, from that time. And it's, it's going to be an interesting thing with, uh, with the jaws 50 years coming up and, uh, and all these nice, wonderful books out now, for sure. It'll be really neat to see. Um, so you can be doing, so you can be doing any more, any, any more promotional things coming up. You're going to be doing with the book. I've got a couple of lectures coming up. I'm really excited about, um, one of them actually at my, the university that I did my undergraduate degree on.

1:27:41 So I get to come back and like, you know, a rock star alumnus and sort of, yeah, the halls again. And I think that's going to be quite surreal, but amazing. Cause I haven't been back there since I graduated, you know, 300 years ago. So it's going to be really, really cool to go back. Um, yeah, really excited for that. So when it's in the talks, like what are you going to be talking about? Obviously you're going to be pulling stuff from the book and, and, and just stuff from your vast library of, of material. But how do you present, you know, sharks to, to this, the, these classes or the people, these students who are attending? So it really depends on who I'm talking to. When I'm at a university, a lot of the people that are attending are, you know, sort of in science field, you know, so these are people that are quite open to quite advanced lectures, which is great. So I go into a little bit of the sort of taxonomy and all the different groups and how we tell them apart and reproductive strategies is one of my favorite things to talk about. I love it so much. And people always get mind blown by that. Um, but when I'm going sort of more towards the public, I love to do like fun shark quizzes where I put up sort of facts that people think they know about sharks and, you know, and then I'm like, Nope, you're wrong. That's false, you know, and pull out great statistics about shark attacks that always surprise people, you know, like you're for every one person bitten by a shark, just five people bitten by New Yorkers is one that goes really well. So I always

1:29:13 kind of, I sort of try to keep it quite light. I think that fun is the way to learn. The more fun it is, the more people are laughing, they are remembering things, you know, when they're having a pint later on with a friend, they're going, Oh, I heard this crazy fact about sharks. And then they share it with somebody else, you know, and yeah, joy spreads that way. So I always try to make it quite fun. I don't want those dusty lecturers that you know, that sleep in the back row. Yeah, no stories. You're not just telling facts. You're not just going to be a textbook. You're doing what you're doing in the book and trying to lighten it up, you know, bring emotion into it, you know, get people to really understand where these where these sharks are coming from.

1:29:54 Yeah. Like so you want to inspire people. Yeah. Yeah. To to to to, you know, I mean, most, you know, I think I think I think it's always good to like, if you can inspire people, most people are not going to do sharks. It's just it's just not not it's not that big a field. Everybody grows out of that. And for the most part, but you want to, but if you can inspire people that for whatever they pursue, I think is an important thing to just they'll go out for whatever they do want to do. They'll just get inspired about it. I think that's that's kind of like, I think an important message to bring. Yeah. As a as a woman, that's really important for me as well, you know, because every time I meet young women who are studying or training or just interested people that are just curious, it's always lovely to hear, you know, it's so great that we see a woman doing this.

1:30:37 And, you know, maybe my daughter could do this. And I'm like, your daughter can do this. A hundred percent. Like, come on. And I didn't realize, you know, I had a student in the Bahamas in the summer sort of say to me, you know, she gave me a hug and said, Oh, my God, you're my inspiration. And I was like, wow. Yeah, that's incredible. Like, yeah, go on rockstar and go do your thing and be amazing. It's yes, an amazing thing to inspire people. That's a you're inspiring people like through like a different way of you and Dan are writing this book in a very different way. And I love the headings. I'm just looking over. So much fun with that. I fought for those.

1:31:17 They kept trying to take them out. And they sent the draft back and I would just politely delete them and put them back in without saying anything. Just like this back. This is just a little passive, you know, eventually somebody will miss this and it'll just definitely. Well, the one that really stands out to me is like, you know, sharks that break the rules. Oh, yeah, that heading. So what what do you what is meant? Like, what can people expect from that? From that section? That was my absolute favorite section to write. And I loved it so much because Dan sort of said to me, he was like, Sophie, this is your forte. I'm going to step back, just go to town on it and just have fun. And I just, you know, wrapped my brains for it was all of the things that I had learned about sharks that blew my mind, you know, like, wait, sharks can glow.

1:32:07 Some sharks glow in the dark. What? Right. That can't be true. You know, some sharks can throw their jaw out their mouth. That can't be true. Sharks use their tail as a whip. You know, all these things that are just mind blowing. And I use the term James Bond shark to refer to that stereotype. You know, it's the gray reef shark looking shark. That's not what sharks are. And so with that chapter, we really wanted to show people sharks are not this one thing. It's not shark. You know, there's hundreds and they're all different and they're all crazy. You know, do you talk? I haven't gone through the entire book yet, but you get into raise raise or go sharks much at all.

1:32:48 We haven't. No. So we kept it sort of just to shark. We briefly touch upon sort of saw fishes and things and very briefly. But no, it's I feel like we'd need a whole other book for that. Princeton. Well, that's what it sounds like. I think it just kind of came up with that idea. I mean, you have to get on it and maybe bring Dave in to talk about sharks in the deep sea. Well, yeah. Well, yeah. Well, my next book is going to be on the ghost sharks of the world. So Princeton's publishing that one. Awesome. So we'll get that one out there. Yeah. Well, as we talk, you'll probably find this out if you haven't already. But if you we talk about the rays and the and the chimeras, if you call them flat sharks or ghost sharks, you'll get a whole different reaction from the audience.

1:33:31 And you will, if you say raise or yeah, it's or it's or chimeras, you know, manna rays in soft fish, you get a little bit of the reaction. But yeah, but even even the soft fish, you don't get as much of a reaction unless you start talking about shark rays or if you somehow work shark into the name, you get a much better reaction than. Yeah. And just crazy how powerful that language is, isn't it? It's just this subtle language can change the way you think about the animal completely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I stumbled onto that 15 years ago. I really saw the power of like, wow, if you use the right terminology, you'll just get amazing, amazing response from this stuff.

1:34:13 So one of the things I want to ask, too, as we as we kind of wrap up, Sophie, is you've written a lot about sharks online and posted online. What's the shark that surprised you most that people were really paying attention to, like, you know, that may not have been in the regular conversation? Is there is there a particular species that have come out being like you've written about you're like, I don't think this is really going to hit well. And then all of a sudden people are generating a lot of interest about. Oh, that's a really good question. The one that springs to mind that is one that I didn't realize was as famous as it is is the Goblin Shark. You know, I love. Yeah. I have no idea that it was such a fan favorite.

1:34:53 But it really is. But you put something out about a Goblin Shark and people love it. I think there's a lot more interest in this mysterious deep sea. What is down there? Sort of crazy monsters idea than we knew about before. And as the technology is getting better, we're learning more and more. And those characters, you know, in the deep sea are starting to become a bit more, more iconic, really. Even just the name Goblin Shark generates interest. Right. So good. Well, the thing is, if if you see them in the wild, which I have there and I tell us the audience is they're they're literally they're pink with bluish fins and like whoever thinks of a pink shark.

1:35:35 No, exactly. That is so cool. That's what that's one of the things I talk I talk about people like they think sharks are kind of gray or brown or black. But whoever thinks of a pink shark and no street everything. Yeah. Well, the thing is, once you preserve them, once you preserve them and after they're dead, they turn brownish. Right. And so people didn't realize if you see one alive in the wild, they'll be pinkish to a whitish. But we see one with like this can be a more of the pinkish side with the kind of a tinge of bluish fins. Wow. It's it's like nobody thinks about that for a shark. I guess I didn't know that. So I'm now going to my computer and I'm going to do another little fast fact for the Web site.

1:36:15 Yeah, you have to write another book. Yeah, I think that's the book title. That's the book. That's my autobiography title right there. Well, I love this. So you're going to be promoting the book so people can check on the Web site of where you're going to be showing up. Is that absolutely. And I'm going to all on my social media feeds, which you can find through my Web site. So I'm very active on social media and I'll sort of like post a lot of stuff about where I'm going to be. And also, OK, everyone could just reach out to me. My email is on there. Please feel free to like get in touch or ask questions or whatever. I love hearing from people. Great. Perfect. Well, that's good.

1:36:55 We'll have all that stuff up there and we'll when the thing comes out, we'll we'll definitely promote it. And hopefully people buy lots of people buy the book. Yes. Yes. And Sophie, can you just just tell everybody the Web site just so that people can get access to it? Yes. So it's www dot Sophie Maycock shark speak dot com. And you can Google shark speak as well on Facebook, on Instagram as well. It's very findable. Yeah, not about what. We'll also put the link in our show notes that people can get access to as well. So this has been so great to have you. We can't wait to have you on in here more about your writing, whether it's a book or on the Web site or on social media, whatever that might be. We really appreciate you coming on.

1:37:37 Oh, thank you so much for having me, guys. This has been so great. I can't wait to come back. Thanks, guys. Thank you, Sophie, for joining us on this episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. A bonus episode. I promise everybody we will have Sophie on for the her full journey to learn more about it in a full episode very, very soon. Dave, what did you think? Like what you've had a chance to roam through the book? What do you think and peruse? What do you think? What do you think about the book? Terrific book. Terrific book. It was it was it's definitely it's definitely a this is a this is a get book to have. And if you haven't gotten my books, there you go. Yes, as well. And it was really terrific. I just had other than just communicating through social media stuff.

1:38:21 I really didn't know Sophie, but boy, she was electric. I was just really had a great time talking with her, talk to her, talk about the book. I think the whole way the book came about actually her whole her old website, the Sophie Maycock shark speak the way that came about and how she got hooked up with Dan Abel. It was just it was terrific and joy. Talk a little bit about the Jaws fiftieth anniversary, which you and Andrew and I are going to have a special episode coming up. We'll talk about a little more later coming in June when the shark week when Jaws is fiftieth anniversary comes up. And so anyway, but yeah, she was she was terrific. I'm really looking for. We're definitely going to have her back on to share more of her journey and we'll talk about I'm sure other things like Sharknado and some of these other twisted things we enjoy talking about.

1:39:12 I like that you twisted for for tornadoes. Yeah, exactly. You know, it was a great episode. Sophie is an amazing person and a great scientist doing the good work of science communication. Obviously, we are biased because we are definitely, you know, all all like everything is in all in on on on science communication. And it's just it's a lot of fun. As Sophie mentioned, we have a lot of fun doing it and sort of she and I think that's where we really connected here. And I think it'll connect with with our audience. So it's really, really fun to have a Sophie on. I'm going to put we're going to put the the links to her book through her website. You can buy it. You can just click on there and you can buy it through there and then you get more information on the book as well.

1:39:58 But I highly recommend that everybody gets that gets the book. It's a lot of fun. If you if you like I said, if you thought you knew about sharks, think again, because this this book will really make you think. And I think it's going to be I think you're going to enjoy it. So go there. Sharks beak Sophie Bangkok, sharks beak dot com or we'll put the link in the show notes and they can go for the book. And we want to thank you, Dave. We thank you. And of course, we want to thank Sophie for joining us on today's episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. Thank you so much from David and I. We really appreciate everybody listening, supporting us on YouTube, supporting us on Instagram. Dave, people want to get to to follow you on Instagram. How do you just go find a lost shark guy and Instagram and check out check out our my YouTube thing.

1:40:45 Lost shark guy in the series Searching for Lost Sharks, Extinct or Live on YouTube now. And it's a new series. Two episodes are up for episode three. We're going to have here soon. And also so please subscribe there and also go to the Beyond Jaws YouTube site and subscribe there. We really appreciate it. And and leave a comment on both sites as well. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, we'd love to hear your feedback. Love to hear how you love the show. Maybe some some feedback, critical feedback we'll take as well. And yeah, we just love the fact that you're listening. Thank you so much. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.