From Peru to Australia: Adriana Gonzalez-Pestana’s Journey in Shark Conservation

1:00:00 Welcome back to another wonderful episode here on the Beyond Jaws podcast. On today's episode, we are following the career of Adriana Gonzalez-Pestana, who is talking about her life moving around from Peru and now into Australia, going and doing her PhD, talking about what she has done in Peru, how she was one of the first shark biologists there and be able to do a lot of stuff there, come out with a book for children, be able to talk about conservation, and then move into a PhD in Australia. We talk about everything in that, and it's gonna be exciting. So let's hear it, let's start the show. Hey everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast.

1:00:42 I'm your co-host, Andrew Lewin, here with my co-host, Dr. David Ebert. David, are you ready to talk about, I know this is one of the people that you mentor, and this is, so this is a special episode to hear about her career, really just beginning. How excited are you? I'm really excited, Andrew. I mean, she's really one of the rising stars in the field, and I think, and she's getting around, really working in different areas, and she talks about, she just pursuing her passion. She went and did a lot of, she really exploring the whole shark world in Peru. She didn't really have any guide or mentor initially when she started out, and now she's gone on to Australia. She will talk about some of the different countries she's been involved with, some of the important shark and ray areas with the IUCN.

1:01:29 She's just an amazing person, and you look at all of her accomplishments that she's had. She's always got a good publication record. She just did her first book. She's very involved with the communities. It's just a fascinating person. I really just can't say enough good things about Adriana. She's just really one of these rock stars really in the field. She's just really out there doing stuff. 100%. And yeah, she's extremely accomplished, and I'm really, really happy to have her as a friend, and I'm really been able to mentor her and hopefully pass along a lot of knowledge and stuff to her as she gets really gets her career up and going. And so I really hope people enjoy this episode. She's yeah, she just wanted we've had a number of these really young up and coming people on the podcast, and I'm hoping that in the future they'll come back 10, 20 years from now and listen to them again and see where they are.

1:02:22 Absolutely. So yeah, so I'm really looking forward to this and this interview today. That's going to be a great time. Enjoy this interview with Adriana Gonzalez-Pustana, talking about her career in shark science. Enjoy it and we'll talk to you after. Hey Adriana, welcome back to the Beyond Jaws podcast. Are you ready to talk about sharks? Yes, I'm super excited to be here again. I love it. Love it. We want to welcome everybody to the another episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. We have a real rising star in the shark world with an absolutely awesome guest. We have Adriana Gonzalez-Pustana, who's currently working on her PhD at Charles Darwin University. Adriana is a coastal marine ecologist and conservation who was born and raised in Lima, Peru.

1:03:06 And our graduate and undergraduate research projects were on the trophy ecology, nursery and habitat suitability of juvenile smooth hammerhead sharks off northern Peru. For the past decade, she's been involved in the conservation of endangered sharks and race species through education or research. And she's published already 30 scientific publications. And recently she just published her first book, which we'll talk about today. She's involved as a regional scientific coordinator in the global project for the shark specialist group, the IUCN, important sharks and raised areas, ISRA. So conservation is really where a lot of her focus is these days. Adriana is also an adjunct professor at the university's scientific dell Sur, where she teaches future marine biologists.

1:03:49 Her PhD research proposal focuses on understanding how citizen science can be used in the identification and monitoring of critical shark habitat in the western Pacific. She's formerly an expeditionary on an Antarctic survey crew. And she was recognized nationally as an outstanding young conservationist. And she's received many grants through her work to support her research and her education. She uses outdoor science-based activities and storytelling to promote environmental identity and children from coastal communities. She recently published a children's book, as I mentioned, we'll talk about today, that connects children specifically from fishing communities with the marine ecosystem.

1:04:29 She's a passionate diver and nature photographer. And she was actually on episode 12 back in December of 2021. We had a series from the global wedge fishing guitarfish symposium. And she subsequently published a paper from that symposium. And she's also one of the featured early career researchers in the new documentary series, "Searching for Lost Sharks, Extincter Alive," which is now on YouTube. And we will be talking about that. As I mentioned, she's currently a PhD student at Charles Darwin University. But before that, she did her bachelor's of science at the University of Scientifica del Sur and a master's of science at the James Cook University. And with that, Adriana, welcome to the show.

1:05:10 Thank you. I'm super excited to be here. Thank you for that presentation. Adriana has been a journey working with sharks and rays in the last decade or so. And I'm very excited to share that with everyone here. And thank you very much for having me here as well. Great. Well, as we as we ask all of our guests, Adriana, how did you get interested in the marine environment and in sharks and rays? It was a long journey for me. It didn't happen from one day to the other, but I always have a very strong connection with the ocean. I live in Lima. So Lima is a huge desert. There's not much nature on land, a live nature at least.

1:05:52 And so I always have this great connection with the ocean. We spend the holidays on beautiful beach town called Toto Rita, where I fell in love with the ocean since I was like five, six years old. Then I have read a lot that there's a trip at a critical point in everyone's life between six and twelve years old. If you're exposed to nature in positive ways, regularly without any adult supervision, it's like ninety nine percent of you're going to fall in love with the ocean. I think that's the key for conservation on the long term. So I was exposed to those moments, special moments with nature. I was like those children that were by themselves with their friends just like climbing rocks, jumping into the ocean.

1:06:37 I don't know how I ever get and nothing happened to me because I was exposing myself. You know, like all risk and all adventure. And that was key for me to feel like this strong spirituality. I would say that it was a strong connection more. It was spiritual for sure. It was that. And I felt very I felt like I was belonging to this perfect world where I was completely accepted by nature. And I was in awe all the time, you know, inspired by it. So I think that was the main thing that even today. And that's why I want to get back when I do work with fishery communities to bring them back to nature.

1:07:21 And I think that's the key for conservation. The children have that experience regularly when they're growing up. And so, yeah, that was how I fell in love with the ocean. As I say, when I finished high school, there was no marine biology career. I was this close to go to study overseas. My dad was very supportive. And I did start engineering forestry at that time because that was the closest I could get to nature. I didn't have anyone to look for a submarine biologist in Peru. And at that time I didn't know like Sylvia Earl. There was not that many. I couldn't see that much examples of people working in marine biology, especially in Peru, because there was no that career.

1:08:05 And when I was this close to go study to Costa Rica, I was very excited. They opened for the first time that career in Peru. So my dad was like, you're staying. And I was like, you want to go to Costa Rica? I was disappointed, you know, because the vehicle, you know, is like this beautiful country with a lot of nature. But then I'm super glad that things turned that way because it's when it was a huge opportunity. You know, in every place where nothing is it's done. And they always talk about these unknown track. There's so much space for discovery, for exploration. And then and then, of course, to have this purpose for my country that has that they have very limited information.

1:08:49 And yeah, so that's why I finished starting marine biology. And I was like 24 when I started a career. I was pretty no usually people start 18 because I had this background in engineering forestry. But when I did find marine biology, I was those students that will like have super grades. I want to know more than a teacher could give me. I was like, I have this hunger for knowledge and exploration. So I'm happy it came up when I was more mature later in my life. And so when you were so you went through, you did your because it was pretty there wasn't really many people had done a lot in Peru.

1:09:30 And so when you when you started in, you're doing your your research and get your undergraduate degree. What was your neck? What was sort of your next step then? So I studied marine biology. And we did have good professors, but it was more related to fisheries. So we do have that career for fisheries. But you know, it's a different and perspective compared to marine biology. And during that career, I did met women, especially like Joanna Farrow, Jimenez, that were doing conservation. But I was more when I was into the career later on. And but I have no if you told me when I was on my second third year of marine biology, improve its five years. But I will finish working with sharks.

1:10:13 I will say there's no way not even in my oldest dream. I'll ever imagine that I was going to end up with that. So I think kind of it was kind of a for me was like a miracle how it all happened. It was very special because I was like more interested, like in jellyfish, in new debranch, very completely different creatures. And then I went to do internships in the island on my third, I think fourth year of career in my summer. I tried to go every summer somewhere else. I'm going to pose when I was the first overseas that I did internships. But I as well, no idea about sharks. I was like most people afraid of them.

1:10:54 Jaws teeth. I have no idea about their situation. They were vulnerable and in extinction. And in that trip, my boss, Eduardo Espinoza was a shark at it. Like he was also a scientist and he was all about sharks and that passion that she had, he gave that to me. And of course, the key thing was diving with them underwater. I remember my first time we were I think it was the third day I arrived. I stayed like three months in Galapagos in that internship. And we were with a friend, a new friend that we made. And we were just having snorkeling very shallow waters, I think one, two meters. And she was stop. Don't move. There's a shark below you.

1:11:35 And I was like, don't move. OK, he's going. I thought that was why he was saying don't move. Right. That it was this nurse shark just laying very, you know, what they do rest on the bottom. Yeah. And I realized that the shark was not going to do anything. And as the months and the weeks went by, I have the chance to dive with many different species of sharks in the lab. And by the end, I was so enthrilled by them that I wanted to dive fast to see them closer. And sharks actually run away from me because they could feel my intensity.

1:12:15 No, they're very, very sensitive animals and they can perceive you very easily. So that experience was for me like falling in love. It was love at first sight as the first best description I could give from that moment. And from that day on, they have been my main purpose, no, for this passion to try to understand them. And with that came all that knowledge about a vulnerable situation. So it made my role as a researcher and as an educator later on, while we're working with fishery communities in northern Peru. That was my purpose. So you're you're really kind of a really like a trailblazer because it really wasn't anybody doing really any much dedicated shark research.

1:13:02 Before you there fit their fish people. And we've had like Joanne Alfaro and Jimena on the show. And but they were they didn't really start off as sharky people's per se. And they were working more turtles because turtles get gather our attention early on because they were very endangered as well. And marine mammals. What's the main focus when people start working in marine biology in Peru? But yeah, because with that experience, I went back to Peru and I was like, OK, let's see what's going on in Peru. And by that time, I also met Jimena who was doing her PhD on genetics on sharks alone in Latin America, the Easter Pacific in the coast.

1:13:47 And it was great to meet her at that time of my life because I wanted to do things for sharks in Peru. So I couldn't find information about them. There was basically some fisheries data, but very not even analyze like just data that that Peru Institute managed. And that was it. There was almost nothing. So with Jimena, we decided to start working on that and they made like a base. And what was the fishery situation? What species were the most good? And that for me was super important because first of all, give me a clear path of where to go. And I just start filling this gap of information. And once I have this baseline, I can just decide which would be the next steps for research that took me to my undergrad thesis that was focused on the smooth hammerhead shark.

1:14:38 That is that we discovered that it was one of the most good species and the most good species in northern Peru for nursery areas. So I decided to do my undergrad based on that research that we did with Jimena. So having models early on, especially women in my case, because I'm a woman and it's hard to picture yourself doing something no one else has done it. Interestingly, these days, most women, early researchers or even students that are doing voluturists or working in sharks are most women in Peru, which is great because we come from a country where there's a high violence and a lot of stereotypes with women.

1:15:18 But it's great to see that most are just women working with sharks. I think that's amazing. Why do you think that is? I think there are several reasons. We have a lot more marine biologists, women than men. It's probably because still a lot of stereotypes men need to provide. No, a marine biology is not a career that you're going to make millionaire. It's more living your passion. You can also make it economically sustainable. So I think for women, there's less pressure to feed a career that they need to provide money. And second, because I think there's more role models in Peru, women that are doing research that the ones who research are women like me, Jimena.

1:16:06 And then we have also worked with Joanna. So if you see a lot of women doing shark research, then it took a woman to follow that path. Well, Peru does have one claim to fame as far as in shark research. And I think the first time I met you about 10 years ago in person, I asked you if you knew Norma Chuchingo. And we have Norma. Yes. And you did know her. And she's just for people don't know her, she was the first woman to describe a new species of shark array back in 1963. Oh, wow. And so and when I first met Adriana, she was about 10 years ago to F at a food at FAO workshop. I was one of the first it wasn't the one of the first questions I asked you if you knew Norma and he's in sit in.

1:16:56 I wish I knew her. But I remember clearly that day when you told me that I was like, what the first woman ever to describe a shark array species. That's a record and it's from Peru. Yeah, I know she's this small lady with this huge personality. She's like, I know she's retired now, but she has done so much for the fish world in general. Yeah, like a letter in Peru. She wanted to meet her before she leaves this world. Right. Yeah. Well, she wrote the she wrote the fishes of Peru back originally, I think in the 70s, I think the first edition. And I'd actually read, I think a second edition back in the 1980s when I was a graduate student.

1:17:41 So my professor, we had to learn all about ichthyologists around the world. And she was one of the names that came up. And then when I did later research, I realized as far as I could tell, she's the first woman to describe a new species of shark or ray. And so anyway, I thought that was pretty cool. That was the first time I met you and then went to Peru that that was kind of pretty amazing. It's pretty, pretty nice to hang out and show out there. So so anyway, so that was pretty neat. So you're so how did you end up in you went up when you came back and you did all this other stuff, you went up to northern Peru. Was it just because of the smooth hammerheads or what brought you up to northern Peru?

1:18:23 Well, I have never been a fan of big cities. I live in a 10 11 million person population city. So I wanted to run away from my ear and be like because I studied five years marine biology, but it was all books. So I was so eager to get into the field to have all that experience that I have in Galapagos now more like in touch with reality. So I moved to northern Peru and I was like a blooming experience because I had the chance to basically be close to the fishermen. When I was in Galapagos, I was like fishermen are my enemy. They're killing sharks. This is terrible. I have to stop it. Well, you know, you're very young and innocent. And so I went there and I discovered a different situation. These fishermen, they ended up being my friends and I spent so many hours on the board.

1:19:15 I didn't have any money when I started, of course, I have my father's, who goes, but he's blessing go and do your stuff, but I don't have money not to support you on all these projects. So I started as an early career scientist applying for these small grants that were like the first one. I got to remember was the body foundation. It was not that much money, but I was so excited. I was going to change the world with a thousand USA. And that's something that's all you need because you have all this energy and this education. So with that, I get to move to northern Peru for for the whole summer. I spent like the last seven years I have spent on enough in northern Peru. But that first time I went to a very small fishery town where there was like I didn't knew anyone and I was very attracted to the situation to knowing what was going on. And I understood what was the main reason.

1:20:10 There were not mean people. There were just fathers and daughters and son that were living their lives and they they was their livelihood. No. And I understand that the only way I could change it is to just observe. Don't criticize the straight to understand from their perspective why it's going on to try to make something that works for everyone. It's very hard. No. And I think we have changed a lot. People used to come to a place and say, this is bad. You need to do it this way. And they never asked the local people what is what they want, how they can make it improve. And there's a lot of like education is very limited in these places. I remember fishermen, they were catching baby hammerhead hearts.

1:20:52 And they didn't even know that that could become a two, three meter. So it was very basic information they have. There was no government presence. So it was a very good experience to to understand it from their perspective to see how this can be. And that's where I started working with children as well in this future communities. So so did you set up that did you set up like your own like little organization like your your own little nonprofit organization up there? No, I still don't have it. I was working more like an independent researcher collaborating with other persons. For example, I was I have a close friend who started an NGO for education for for children to bring them outdoors.

1:21:39 So that was a key time for me. And that's where I met. God, the well, I really met God, the that is my co-author in the children's book that was doing that time. We weren't working with the children in fishery communities. So, yeah, that's the good thing about living being in like, for example, in Australia, I see it is so much harder to make research as an independent researcher because you need to be affiliated with a big institution and have all these permits that it's great. Of course, you need that. But in places like Peru, you can just be more informal in that way, but you have more opportunities to just be out there and collect data and know and be in touch with with that.

1:22:20 I think I think I think too, because there is you know, Australia has a lot of people doing sharks sharks and rays there now. Now they do go back when I started out 3540 years ago in the 1980s. It was there was basically John Stevens, Peter last and a couple other people. There was not that many people there. Colin Sipendorfer early on, but there was not very many people. And that's sort of like you. But once you start getting a lot more people involved doing it, then you start having more regulations and have to do different things, which I probably Peru will get there. Unfortunately, if you get as more people get into into the shark shark world, doing stuff would be my guess. But it sounded like it was a really wild.

1:23:04 It was pretty the nice thing. It seems like I can relate to is you had like there was no sort of path. You basically just blazed your own trail, basically like a you're basically like a pioneer explorer. Yes. And I think that's fascinating. And I always remember those days as very important early on. They build my character. I remember the first time I went on a trip with fishermen from northern Peru. I remember that I did I tell my mom that I was going to go on a journey for I didn't know how long it was going to last because it depends how much cash they get to come back. And my mom was just trying. We have to call your dad and my dad was like, he didn't want to say the awful word that would be the worst case scenario, but he was like, Adriana, what are you doing? This is insane.

1:23:54 And I was like, my dad's know when I have my mind decided there's nothing they can do. They could change me to the best. That's the only way I have my mind was because I was longing for the moment because I was spent so much time on the landing site, seeing all these sharks come there. I wanted to go to the ocean and have experience to be out there. It was still very sad because they were catching sharks, but it was one of the most fascinating experience I ever had. I remember I have one. I'm very like adventurous and I'm usually not afraid. But in that trip, I have a panic attack. I have two attacks in my life and I was one of the first one that I got because I remember I didn't know the fisherman. I was at that time working in the other thingos and they also work with fishermen. Nothing has happened there.

1:24:44 Always the nicest persons. But still, there were strangers for me. I was going by woman by himself with four men on a boat on a artisanal boat, no small boat for many, many days. At the end, we were like 13 days overseas. But then we were so far away on the ocean that we even get to international waters. So the first two days we were just traveling from the coast to the fishery area. And I realized on the second day that I was it was obvious. But the second day when I have no internet phone, no nothing to communicate. We have we still have the pilot.

1:25:26 We have the pilot captain. He still have a radio to communicate. We have that wasn't completely but I didn't have my phone. Nothing. And I was like, oh my God, I'm here in this tiny boat with five men that I don't know. And I'm wearing the middle of the Pacific Ocean. And I had a panic attack and I start throwing up. I was I never get DC on the ocean. Never. I usually get very relaxed, but I was throwing up like this, you know, the last stage when I was I told myself, Adriana, you have put yourself in this situation. You are the only one who can get out of it because they were looking me like, oh, we're going to do with this girl. We're two days away from land.

1:26:08 There was nothing. There's nothing. You can't go back. You can't go back. Yeah. And they spent so much money to get out there as well. It was going to be expensive. Yeah, just for people that hear the podcast, we're going to have we have some we're going to have some pictures up for this episode. You can see what she's talking about these artisanal boats. These are not very. They don't have bathrooms. They're very, very sick. I remember I spent two days holding myself being because I was like, we're going to be and just be two days. I'm not even talking about. I was 13 days with no bathroom like nothing. I I I I have. But they were such gentlemen. So I understand I have to tell them I'm going to the bathroom. So they all look like this. But yeah, never. So I went to the other side.

1:27:00 No, I put my butt outside the boat and that was it. Yeah, it was very extreme situation. I put myself. I can imagine. So be a night director for sure. Yeah. So I saw all the young students out there that are just starting out, particularly the women. Just listen to the story. Play it back on the podcast and listen to what she just explained. Thirteen days at sea with five men in international waters and no bathroom. Just imagine that. But you know, Peru is not the safest place for women. We have records in rape, rape, and all that. But fishermen, at least the one that worked there, the most gentle man ever. I remember every time they make the food and have great make food. I was the first one to get the biggest plate.

1:27:46 Every time I have to go being they never pick like they treat like a princess, you know, like, yeah, it's a care of you. I felt that's that's good. That's really nice. It's very, really nice to hear. And after that, they probably when you went back to the fishing portion, they probably had a lot of respect for you as far as being able to. Yes, I remember they respect me on another level because fishermen in Peru, most of them, they don't know how to swim. They never they are very scared about the ocean itself. And one day when we're like very, very far away, you could tell how you were going offshore oceanic water because of the color of water. And the birds were very different.

1:28:30 So I told them I need to jump. And you know, those fishing boats, to stay in the boat and never get out when you go in the land inside. So like, what are you jumping? No, no, no, no, no, no. We need to put you a rope. So I put my legs on. They put me a rope on my wrist and they let me jump. And they were like, what is she doing? She's going to be like in throw, but I see creature and never come back. So I think after they were, they took me with different eyes as well. Like we have to watch her. We have to really watch her. She's gonna drown. She's crazy. Yeah. We can't keep up with her. That that is an event. So so how much of the story did you share with your parents when you got home?

1:29:16 I think my mom was it's always like that. She's super wary when I told her the news. Once I leave, she just forgets. So right. That's good because you will be like a nightmare for her for those 13 days. But I do remember she told me that I told her I was coming back on the sixth day. And on the sixth day, I knew I were going to stay much longer. So I asked the captain to send a message back to her. And she got someone like she never knew from the port from the from the port to call her and she was like, Senora Union. Yes. And she knew it was about me. Your daughter. It's all right. She will come back on the next three moons. And that was it.

1:30:02 She only knew that I was safe and I was coming back eventually. So that's all she needs to know. Yeah. Oh, so that was how you're what you ever go out with them again or is that your one trip? No, I have been out in other fishing trips, but never as that extreme. I have. I don't know if I still have the GPS bones, but I was in international waters. So I was very far away at some point from the coast and the data staff. That most extreme and I will be was the first one as well. Yeah. So I gave you while you had the other quen. Did you get a lot? Would you able to collect a lot of data on sharks while you're out there at least? Yeah, it was. It was sad as well because I get to know to see the sharks when they came in and they throw these very long nets because I think that's less resources. They are fishermen try to have a higher fishing efforts. So improve. We are managing this. We started with one kilometer and now three. I think now it's five or seven. But it's all very mano. It's such a hard job as well to throw all this really and they have to collect them back every morning.

1:31:05 So I was helping them to pulling the nets off and then we got a lot of treasure sharks blue sharks of hammerheads month the race. So it was very sad and I did participate on that. They had this huge knives and the boat was moving like this often with blood with this huge knife strike to the right. And I was part of all that process and I did it was hard to watch it. Yes, it was very sad. But then you get to see how much they work and how little they earn like I remember that after two weeks they were earning like a hundred to hundred dollars per person.

1:31:48 And like a huge mobile was worth like two dollars. Like command. These people are doing it because they there's their leavings and they have inherited their from generations to generations over your touch to them. They're not making that much money for all that hard work. And they have a lot of other. You know, I know when I was there with you and you were doing the the series, you know, that the other things we was real striking was that they have things like piracy out in the seas. They have the drug cartels. They have local, you know, gangster mobs at the various ports there. It's not an easy life to be a fisherman there. No way. I was okay. There was no piracy but closer to the frontier with Ecuador.

1:32:38 And now actually recently they have a new journal when there was a lot of people have been killed on the last three years because of pirates and they just go and they don't they don't matter. They don't anything. They'll just take whatever and life doesn't is worth for them. So it's a hard job. And fishermen are also very attached to that lifestyle. You cannot bring a fisherman to work on a factor that will kill themselves. They need that adventure. Don't sense of risk. No, that's what I was a great example because you have fishermen that are now park rangers because it fits their way of living.

1:33:22 And they're wild man. Yeah, they're wild man. And they're really enjoying what they do. It's amazing to be on the ocean every single day. But it is a hard job and it's very bad because then you see how much that thing got sailed on another part of the world. And they're making all that money. So it makes you question about the ethics about the whole. Yeah, I think to us talking to those fishermen to you probably I know my own experience, you learn a lot talking with the guys because they're out there all the time. And they see, you know, as much as you like to be out there, you can't be out there all every day, unless you become a fisher woman or something. But it's but but those guys see a lot of stuff and they can tell you about what they're catching, what they used to catch and everything. And so they're they're very they got a lot of fisher knowledge, I guess, which I think is important. And it's something that I think a lot of people overlook in terms of.

1:34:17 It's key. I think in most of underdeveloped countries, like in the case of Peru, all my research has been based in in their knowledge and in collaboration because they bring the samples back. If there was no fishery there, who wouldn't be able to study them? It's so expensive. You don't have money to just rent a boat and go through their through their way of life and through their knowledge that you can gather all that information. So I'm very helpful. They were having very helpful and very grateful for the nurse. They have been to for sure. So you're spending all this time up in northern Peru going to go going out with the fishermen and go everything. Did you have at that time? Did you have any any overall goal you were looking at that point in time? Because you this is before you I think this before you even really went and did your master's correct.

1:35:06 It was before it was just when I finished my undergrad, I moved northern Peru and I have stayed there for many years. So I started focusing on smooth hammerheads because there was a huge there's a one of the largest nursing areas in the eastern Pacific. But then whatever I could check like race. Oh, there's race. Oh, there's like hand sharks. No. So whatever guitar fishes. So whatever I could put my hands on a circle. And I was like, Oh, I'm not expecting data because I knew there was nothing. So it was it was key and they were get fish. No, for example, the killer fish that we did a few years ago that symposium. I did like a literature review and it was so sad that today we fish 2% of what was once caught on the 80s. So the 80s was the peak that we know because we have data from the 50s.

1:35:57 We have a large 2%. So what's left and that species has been caught for millennia, even pre in God like before Christ has been important for the culture. They have long displays. They, they move the killer fish all around to the highlands to the jungle. So it was a very important part of that culture. And now it's almost gone compared to how it was. Yeah, in the 60s, probably when you went to a yes, a Chuda Bay, you probably wouldn't be able to walk because they were on top of each other. I know you have so few people are not even the government and many people are not even realizing what we're losing.

1:36:41 What we do know is this is this what kind of inspired you to do your children's book. You just came out. Of course, yeah, so at the time it was it was a very intense time of my life where I was living in Northern Peru was starting my first research with a fisherman smooth hammerheads and I have a very close friend who was also starting an NGO for environmental education with children. And a key person at that point in my life was Kathy. So this is the book and she's one of the co-authors. So that is a very special person in my life because she used to be the person who take care of me when I was little. So those summers, I was in total it does having fun. She used to take care of me.

1:37:25 She was also younger. She was like 16 years old. So she was probably her vacations in high school and her mom used to work for my grandmother. So we have like transformation. She's basically she's basically like family to you at this point. Yes, of course, it's like family. So she didn't at that time she was like 16 years old. She discovered that she loves children. So after that, she studied to become a teacher. So she was a great influence when I was little because she was like, you are not a happy children if you're not there. Where's the map? She was like that. No, yeah, like that. That's how all like everyone takes care of children should embrace them to be wild and know and forget about King. Just go on to your wild stuff. So she was like that all the time.

1:38:17 And then when I was passed on by she we went through this and past she studied she worked with children. And I was in Northern Peru. So I invite her to become part of this NGO because she was she was the only one who was actually an educator professionally. And she's amazing with children. She's those person that she just need to look at the children to die and the children will behave. Our respect. Yeah. So I bring her to where I was working. I bring him to the landing site and she was like, Adri, this is so sad. Like we need to do something. So together we start developing these children's book. And at the time I was also working with the children from the fishery communities. So that's how the story started to to develop. So this story is basically, as you can see, it's about the family.

1:39:08 And it's about the small hammerhead. So it's basically the story of I will show you a little bit. The story starts when mom and dad are saying goodbye somewhere of the Pacific Ocean. Mom, of course, is pregnant and she arrives to this beautiful place in Northern Peru. Actually, this is the place where I close to the island that I went the first time I went fishing with the fishermen. And then she has this very productive ecosystem to inverse and she gets birth. And then, of course, there's the fisheries. So the book doesn't ever mention the nets. It's just a shadow. So these two little children, baby sharks start like looking for their mom.

1:39:49 And they met all these characters. You can still see all the parts of the shark. So they start looking for their mom where the shadow has taken her. So they needed a mako shark, the treasure, the blue shark. And they decided to make this hidden place. That's why it is called it in Spanish. It's a hidden place to escape from humans. But then the connection comes back because there's this marine biologist. I will show you here. And that's how they met again to rebuild that loss connection between the marine world. I'm going to tell you the end, but it's a story about the impact. Yeah, it's the impact that human had on sharks, especially overfishing is the main thread in the world.

1:40:42 We all know that and how sharks decided to just leave humans and hide on this place. But then humans were starving because there was no fishery. And the sharks were like overpopulating this hidden place. So they need to come back to regain this equilibrium between the human world and the ocean world. So, yeah, the book was basically to try to educate. I'm a big champion of we need to invest more in education. It's always going to be on the long term. But I think it's the only sustainable way to get what we want to be. Mm hmm. That's that's great. Now you had now did you finally I know you had that book. Who did the illustrations for the book, by the way, the first.

1:41:26 Margo stories know Kathy was because Kathy did a master's in literature, children literature. So she was doing a master. She made that illustrator. She he is amazing person. And he works basically with children's folk. You can tell that how the characters are all these personification of humans. He did a great job. So, yeah, he was the key person to that. And I know when I know we talked when I was when I was down in South America, we were doing the series. We'll talk about here. How did you how did you get funding for the to get to print the books for the for the kids? It has been a 10 year project on and off sleeping a little time because we were doing other stuff. And I got a funding for that. Like it was all basically me and Kathy putting all these energy. We got a little funding from Ruford Foundation to pay for that illustrator.

1:42:20 And then at the end we decided to print ourselves with our own money because we just wanted to see it alive. It couldn't stay longer. It was too long. So, yeah, you have to bet for yourself. You know, I have the money. Kathy had the money. Kathy now lives in Germany and she works with children. So we come to us and let's make it alive. We need to put our money. Let's do it. And I don't regret it. We'll come back and the whole point is just to share this. So the idea is just for every book that it gets self-special in our people have a higher capacity to spend money. And so we have a book goes to a fishery community. We're starting with northern Peru, but the day is to go all along the coast because those are the children who need that information. We went on December to keep books as a donation to the fishery community where this project started when I started doing my research as well.

1:43:14 And this picture I made it just like never says peru in the whole book, but for me the most that you can tell is peru is because of the ecosystem. We're very perfectionist with Marcos. Marcos doesn't look like this species. You need to put this and that. So this is the island that is called Lobos de Tierra, Lobos de Apuera. That is a very special place. It's like the Galapagos, say, of Peru where there's a huge amount of different species of sharks aggregated there. When we did a presentation of the book in northern Peru, I was like, this is Lobos de Tierra. So excited that island and they were like, what's that? I never heard that place before. And I was like, oh, my God, these children will become fishermen one day. And they don't even know this island. It's it's not visible from the coast.

1:43:56 Right. But that level of lack of environmental culture identity, they have. Yeah, yeah. Makes me more engaged to bring that message to them. That's really an amazing story. You're you're you're so passionate about this and connecting with the kids that you and kind of just basically fund itself, funded the whole thing. If there's anybody out there listening that has some money wants to help further the cause, please contact Adrian. I'm sure they got plenty of children in northern Peru. I'd like to still get copies of that book. They may do another print run. Yeah, we're going to work. Today's to to work with a school. So I want we want to work with the schools instead of working with the children directly because the story has some message that it will be much more efficient.

1:44:41 Of course, work through institutional education. So yeah, we're getting there. I know it's a project that was last 10 years and it's going to last. I want more books. So it is just a beginning. Have you have you thought about selling some of the books on like a on a bigger platform, like internationally for other Spanish speaking countries so that they can get not only an idea of Peru, but just on the books and then use that money to fund the books for the kids and for the schools. Yes, the book, although was based in Peru, most of the species are worldwide now like the makola blue shirt, the hand.

1:45:24 It's the same story repeats over and over again all over the world, like overfishing. You know, it's the same story. And yes, the idea is to translate it in start with English, German since got these working there. Yeah, we want to grow, but I'm doing my PhD. Yeah, it's a little busy. Yeah, I don't have any pressure to make it big from one day to another. And I still have my life. Yes, that's the idea. We want to keep working on that work in Lima, let go to the fishery commits and then span to other places. So why don't you talk a little bit about what's your about your PhD project? Have you used to work on your proposal or where you at with that now?

1:46:10 I started one year ago will be by the end of March. And so in three years in Australia, it's so fast. So I have been trying to move forward as fast as I can every single week. So, yeah, it got approved last year on November, the confirmation of candidate. So the project is more based on because I start very focused in Peru. But in the last two years, I have been working for this international project that is run by the IUC and shark specialist group. So it's basically a project that is mapping critical shark habitat all around the world. Let's just come back to your thesis. Why don't you talk a little bit about this?

1:46:51 This is the ISRA, which is important. Yeah, you want. Yeah. Yeah, I want you to talk about that a little bit. We'll come back to your PhD, how that's kind of interrelated. Actually, the book is based on an ISRA because we have reproductive areas where the shark no matter comes in and gives birth. We have feeding areas where the sharks are eating humble squid. So yeah, is robotic basically is important shark and ray area. So these are places that are important for sharks for critical life stages, like reproduction feeding movement as well. So we have a very interesting question.

1:47:32 What is your purpose? So I was lucky enough. I think so. Something's are in your cards. I think so. Because they open this position to work on it. We're just starting to map these areas. And the first region was the eastern Pacific, from Mexico to Chile. And I remember applying. And then I was like been very prepared for this. I was in the work of the sea. And then I was like, okay, so I'm in the water. So I was like, oh, I'm not in the water. I'm not in the water. So I was like, okay, so I'm not in the water. And then I was like, okay, I'm in the water. So I was like, okay, so I was like, okay, I'm in the water. And I remember applying and then I was like being very ambitious, of course, but I was like, oh, I want to really be part of this team. It sounds amazing. And the leader of the project said, OK, we didn't we feel in the position you were, but we might be still interesting because we're starting in your region and we need someone from that region. So that's why I got the job and it has been such a great adventure.

1:48:15 A lot of hard work, of course, that comes with that. But it's great because you get to know basically the whole world. You go region by region and you understand what is the ecosystem about the habit as a different species that a region has. And very interesting, you get to know the people behind those because we're not going on a boat looking for those habitats will be great, but it will take decades. We are working with our regional experts. So, for example, in the first region, we invited 30 around 30 persons to this workshop to identify critical habitat. So it's great because you also get to know the people behind all this research and all of them are very passionate about their work.

1:48:59 So it's amazing. You really build a good network of contacts around the world. So that's how I started with the Israel project. And then from that, I decided to do my PhD based on that project. So I have moved from Peru to Australia and now my focus of research is that in the West Pacific. And I have one chapter that is going to be more based on the field for Timor Leste that is my advisor. Yeah, nice. Yeah. Yeah. One of the air. Yeah. Timor Leste is one of the ones who talked a little bit about that in a couple of other episodes. And we'll come back, talk about that in just a moment. But what do you have? What are your other chapters about?

1:49:43 So it's it's a focus in Israel's important areas in the West Pacific with a component of citizen science. Because something that I was discovering is, again, that a lot of these areas are reported by divers by fishermen. So it links the importance of society in identifying these areas and the role that society has in preserving these regions. No, and goes back to that work because it's funny. I study marine biology because I didn't want to have anything to do with humans. I didn't like that much. I was also much more myself in nature.

1:50:23 But on the way I discovered if I want to preserve nature, I have to work with people. People are that conservation. It's all about you want to change the behavior of a species. You want to change the behavior of a human to preserve that species. So I think that it makes all the pieces together to work, have a focus more in citizen science. And now it's a huge thing. I was reading the other day that we save millions. I don't know how many millions of dollars every year because of citizen science. And many interests are just based in that knowledge. And working with them helps to preserve those important, critical habits. How do you collect the data for the citizen science, like for the reports? Is it through an app or is it through like they email you or is it through like the dive centers or how is that done?

1:51:12 It varies a lot. They're very well established projects all around the world, but it's basically based in well sharks and manta rays, more and more charismatic species where people go diving. They're very well established citizen science project that are being like 10, 15 years. But there's also more informal. So most of the data that we gather, it comes from informal. It's more like ecological knowledge that people gather through their lives and they pass through that. So we do validate that with pictures. Now that we know that's suspicious, it's not only your word. We need to prove that with pictures. But these days, everyone has a phone. So it's very easy to gather that information. And people do bring very interesting information.

1:51:57 There's when we're working on the New Zealand and Pacific islands, there were these places where only divers, recreational divers have been four times in their life. There's no research. Nothing has besides them. There's nothing. And those people were key. Twenty five those areas. They go there and they see a hundred sharks. Probably because there's no even fisheries there. So it will be so expensive to get there. But divers are getting all over the world to go and die. So it's very cool information that you gather. Well, one of the chapters in your thesis was kind of a kind of a novel thing in that this part of this project we'll talk about here that Adrian has been involved with me.

1:52:43 But we went to one of the episodes on the Searching for Lost Sharks series on YouTube that we just launched is we went to a team or less the last year. I've talked to a couple on the podcast a little bit about it. We talked with the niece about it. But that was a completely unknown area. We just went and explored. And now you're going to work on one of your chapters for your thesis is going to be on that. You want to share what's your idea from the start. That's true. That's true. I'm in this area. No, it's still the same problematic. No. But then I was like, OK, I don't want to do all this space because all this information comes from this.

1:53:24 This project. But then they was like, oh, you know, let's say it's like this unknown place and it's an hour flight from where I live in Darby. And actually, more or less is very special because it's in the middle of one of the most diverse regions in the world for sharking. That two countries that are for the highest numbers are Indonesia and Australia. And Timor Leste is just in the middle. Right. And they was like, there's nothing. Oh, it's like me. I knew who my go to person was going to. Yeah. It's just right in the right. Right. The coral triangle. It's like one of the most diverse areas in the world. And nobody's ever gone there. And when I had a chance to go last year, I just like it was quite one of these.

1:54:11 It was kind of an interesting thing because you ended up going to Australia and then I was and I ended up going to Australia. I said, hey, what about let's go to check out Timor Leste and see if we can do something up there. And what do you know? Now it's going to be part of a thesis. I love it. I love it. I say that to all you students listening out there, young people starting out. You wonder how things happen. Well, this is how something happens. It was somebody knew somebody that said, hey, Dave, why don't you check this out? And I'm like, this should be a good thesis project. I know the perfect student I'm going to get for this project. But I think also just to go back to when you started the beginning of like why you love nature so much and you're always going and hopping into adventures like going to a place like Timor Lesty. That's not well known from a biological standpoint, especially in the ocean. It kind of takes someone who's adventurous to be like, hey, let's go to this place.

1:55:03 Let's let's check it out. Let's see what we can find. And then ended up being part of your thesis because it's such an important aspect. And I think I think you're really going to scratch that. Scratch the surface when it comes to this in the future. And but it really goes towards your personality of let's jump in feet first and let's see what's going on. I mean, we've seen it throughout the entire episode where you talk about jumping into the water. You're taking a small boat for days at a time and not having washrooms and facilities. Not an easy boat ride. And then now going to Timor Lesty, which is like newly explored by shark scientists now. So I think that's a kind of a recurring theme in your story. I think we've seen right. Yeah, I'm super excited. It's going to be another level of challenge because I'm not from that place. I don't even know the language. I'm going to work with projects, ongoing projects in that island collaboration for me. It's key.

1:55:59 But I'm so eager. No, I'm going to start going into the field. This year, I actually got a lead good funding from services foundation key to keep that project ongoing and support from Charlotte's our university to start going onto the field. And mostly work with a fisherman and a diving community. Those are the ones who are out there and also but work with ongoing projects that ski. If I'm not from the area, I need to work with. Right. Yeah, that's super important. I just want to talk about the series a little bit since we got onto this now. We had this was this was a save our seas funded keystone grant that I had raise awareness of what I call law sharks, these little known species that may be disappearing.

1:56:48 And the first episode came out the end of January and we had Denise Sotomayor, who's a friend and friend and colleague of Adriana's and I actually met Denise through Adriana and who's and she's been filming the series and our first episode just kind of introduce the series. The new episode, which is just come out our first place we went to went to northern Peru and then and then Ecuador and we're looking for a shark that nobody has seen in over 60 years. And that's kind of the point of the the the project in the series on YouTube is to raise awareness these things that nobody's here's a species that we went to northern Peru and to Ecuador where this thing occurs.

1:57:35 We talked to the fisherman, you know, they'd around to none of the younger guys knew what this thing the shark was at all. And only some of the older fishermen, the older fishermen knew what it was. But the younger guys had no idea. And now you have this shark that's disappearing. And how do you feel? I mean, how do you think about that when you think about things like that, Adriana? Because this first was like right in your backyard in northern Peru. Yeah. And then we go to Ecuador and it's going to be a two part series just for this episode. But how do you feel about like that? I felt it was great to have you here. It was such an honor to bring Dave Ebert to northern Peru to the places I have been working with. And we have such a good crew and good team with Adri Sevalos and the Nisotto Mayor.

1:58:23 From that perspective, it was great to work with such professional passionate people. On the other side, it was kind of sad to go to see this shark that only that very, very old fisherman could identify and they were saying that it was gone so many years ago. It was actually we're talking with a younger generation that were talking about other sharks that are gone that we're not even looking for. So yeah, it was sad reality to watch what's going on. But I think the only way to make something a change even is little you need to understand what's the reality and accept that and have hope. Yeah.

1:59:05 Changes. You know, that's what they would so good because it puts you people into this uncomfortable place that we are using species and we don't even know. And I think a key part of the series too is like the first year, the first episodes, this episode two and episode three is going to be in northern Peru and Ecuador. But having Adriana who's with us today, we had every Adriana Sevalos who beyond who's Ecuador, but having people, young people, young researchers to work with to raise our awareness because you're going to be because like you know, the people in northern Peru, the fishing communities there through your book and stuff. And so you're going to be it's going to be your people like yourself and Adriana Sevalos that are going to be able to kind of carry the torch, sort of speak to raise awareness with fishermen and with, you know, policymakers and others around there about these species that might be might be might be slowly disappearing.

2:00:02 And after that, some of the upcoming series after that, as we're going to be just talked about will be in Timor Leste and Adriana managed to get her way on to that end of that project, which is I'm really excited about to find out because it is a completely unexplored area. And then we'll have have other episodes with Julia Constance looking at River Sharks and Vinaya Simone got a few really good episodes coming up on Indonesia. We're looking for some really rare species there and again all raising awareness there for the for this project and it's and save our season has been super supportive of the whole project.

2:00:42 And in fact, as Adriana just explained, she got funding for a small grant from save our seas to now go back and focus on Timor Lesty, which is it's just a completely, you know, open book as to what we'll find there. So, so, yeah, so I kind of cool pretty excited about you going to Timor Lesty and looking forward to these other other episodes. How did you feel about about it? Yeah, I feel super excited about what's coming up this year because I have been working a lot on the proposal itself on the last year. So it will be amazing to be back on the field on a different continent, no far away from home, but still super engage.

2:01:30 I think I don't know, like in my life I make decisions basically if I don't do it, I will regret even though I don't know what the consequences are. Okay, let's do it. So when I went diving on Antarctica two years ago, I say, of course, yes, Antarctica. But then I have my second panic attack when I was my first time and I was like, what I'm doing diving in minus two degrees. I could see like the seal, the huge seal. Oh, leopard seal leopard seal leopard seal. Me leopard seal was behind me going to scrape off my hair. But then again, I don't regret it. It's an amazing experience. I could have my panic attack at that moment.

2:02:20 It's those experiences that if you don't do it, it's just you need to stay alive. No, that's what makes me move forward every single day. Yeah, yeah. Does that that? Yeah, that's that's pretty amazing. Well, obviously you're gonna be doing that for part of your PhD thesis as well and doing the research there. So this has been really awesome. Awesome. I knew you'd be an awesome guest to have on there. Talk about this. And we're gonna have you well, I'm gonna have you back. Talk about some of your more as you get to team or less tea and some of the other projects and more. But Carol kind of as we want to finish up this episode now. But what do you what advice would you have for like a young person starting out? What kind of advice would you have for him? Well, once heard that we not we are a few ones who get fine and follow our passion.

2:03:07 I feel very grateful for that. And I know I'm kind of unique. A lot of people never find it or never pursue it. But what I could recommend it's be curious like that's why I got into sharks is because I was curious. I put myself out there every summer that I have a holidays from from my university. I just went somewhere to do some work. Even if I don't get any money or something to have to put from my own pocket to do it. I did it. I will never forget. And I think that's how I got into finding my passion because I was curious and I put myself out there like then he's also was saying that just do it. Don't be afraid. Like you will regret like you have to just do it and it will come to you eventually. I think so. But you need to be brave and just get out there. Yeah.

2:03:56 If it's scary, then I think it's a good thing. If it's scary, then just do it. Of course, take your precautions. No one's but just don't let that fear hold you back because I think the best thing that could happen is it's just you don't find out your passion and you just stay being very basic. So yeah, it is important to just be curious and get out there and don't be fall back by your by your fears. No, I think fear could be used as a source to get you out there. I try to do that. No, instead of letting me pull me back. It's a way to push me forward. I think you can play with fear in that sense very easily.

2:04:40 And yeah, I think all the amazing things that you can like if you told me that I was going to my PhD in this part of the amazing part of the world, the highest biodiversity working in Timor-Leste again, not even in my oldest room ever think about it. And one thing led to another and for multiple years, it build up, no? Yeah. Yeah. Let's go out there. All right. That's great advice. Let's go. Thank you. Thank you, Adriana, for coming on to show and I know we'll be having you back soon. Absolutely. All the best to you and congratulations on your grant or save our team's grant for Timor-Leste. And anyway, great. Thank you. Thank you again so much for coming on the show. We appreciate it. Thank you both for having me here. Have a great time with both of you. And I really admire your project.

2:05:31 All your work that you're doing. And you're doing a great job. And I really appreciate your work that you're doing and you're also a source of huge source of inspiration for me and for me, for many people around the world. Appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you Adriana for being on this episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. It was great to have you on Dave. What did you think of the interview? Yeah. You know, just she was just what I thought, man, she was she's a powerhouse. I mean, she really starts talking about stuff. She just sort of talks very much. Yeah. You know, I did this and I kind of pursued that. You know, she talked about going out to sea and spending, you know, these some of these little artisanal boats, basically, five, five fishermen and her for 13 days. And there's no bathroom, no luxuries at all on the boat. And the guys were the nicest they could be to her. Yeah.

2:06:12 And, you know, I kind of feel a little I know her parents a little bit. So I feel sorry for her parents. A particular mom was probably probably aged a little more. Yeah. But yeah, she's she's got that Explorer gene. Yeah. And one of the things you'll see people watch the series, you'll find people like Adriana and some of the other young researchers that we feature on this feature in the show. They all have the Explorer gene. They they really want to get out there and learn stuff and they're going to places going and doing things that most people would never consider doing, you know, going out to going out to sea for 13 days with five strangers or going out or even just going up to northern Peru where nobody, nobody really studied sharks there before.

2:06:58 She literally is like one of the first almost like a young Eugenie Clark of Peru in a way. Yeah. Yeah. No. She had no. She made that point that she said like there was no role models. She said, well, there are no women role models. But there was no really role models, period. There was no. Yeah. There were no there were no male. There were just simply no role models. So she's really I think what she's doing with the young people in the communities there, I think she'll she will be that sort of Eugenie Clark of Peru, I think. I agree. I agree. I think it's it's you know, she she will have a name for herself within that air. She will become that role model. And I'm sure there are going to be a number of kids that grow up that that read that book. And and want to do the same thing and follow her career. And I think what she's doing is fantastic sharing her experiences and paving that way. Not we know it's not an easy an easy feat. We've we've heard from a number of people who are doing that within their own countries. It's not an easy feat. There's a lot of hard challenges that are that she's gone through and that are ahead for her. But she's got that resilience that we've seen in a lot of other people. And you can just see it right now. She's going to definitely be a star and help out in the future.

2:08:06 And I think that's going to be great. We need more. We need more of that around the world. Right. And I think one other part of that is is that she because of all the international experience she's getting, you know, she's in Australia now and she's working on these ISRA programs. She could bring all that international knowledge back locally. And that's really giving have that broader experience and having someone who can share. That's really going to be important. I think in the future of Peru. Yeah, I think that'll be really, really good. Peru just to kind of aside, we've had a number of Peruvian researchers on there. The whole way happened to be women. They have a really dynamic crew down there. And I've been very fortunate to get to know them and collaborating with them and mentoring. And they just it's, you know, just the others. There's a lot going on. It's one of those places that most people wouldn't think about Peru. You know, have a lot of people who are going to be doing that.

2:09:03 But it's quite a quite an area and say there are a number of other people who've been very fortunate to highlight from South America and some of these different countries. And so I think that's for me. I think in you is like being able to highlight some of these people like Adrian, a series to reach people out there and let them know, hey, there's a lot of activity going on in these countries that no one really thought about. I think it really great. I think it certainly makes us feel kind of fulfilled in our lives. Absolutely. We want to do in here. So yeah. Yeah. And they will. Adriana will be back. She's going to have her episode three just will be coming up the episode two and three are both on Ecuador's lost shark and Adriana will be back with Adriana Savalas in episode three. Yeah. And we'll have both on the podcast to talk a little bit about that. Yeah, it'll be great. It's kind of look I'm looking forward to it. Also, I think it's a great way to get to the next level of the conversation.

2:09:55 I'm looking forward to it. Also, just to the point that you've made a number of times too is as Adriana is traveling from place to place as she's building her network. And so I think as she takes on students when she goes back to prove she decides to go back. She will be able to send them and have that network. Like, hey, I've got a great student for you, whether it be in Australia, whether it be in the US. She's expanding that network. And I think that will help a lot of people get that international experience, bring it back to Peru and that'll benefit the science community. There the marine science community and shark science community. So I think that'll be that'll be really great. And we're going to put we're going to put all the social media followings that you can connect with to Adriana with in the show notes and Dave, if people want to get a hold of you, how would they do so?

2:10:39 It's a lost shark on Instagram, but really go to the YouTube channel lost shark eyes and check out our series. We just episode twos out now and check it out. Episode three will be out here in a couple of weeks. And yeah, check it out. I'm really where Andrew and Andrew has been involved doing the editing. Denise Sotomayor who's on the on the podcast, did the filming and the three of us are super excited about that. And of course, I want to big thank you to save our seas for supporting this this project and for the support. This project and really helping raise awareness of these lost sharks. And so we really so yeah, so check out the channel Instagram on Facebook. Just look for lost shark guy. You'll find me pretty much all the social media platforms. So awesome.

2:11:23 Perfect. And don't forget on Instagram beyond Jaws pod. If you want to get a hold of us and I want to thank Adriana for joining us and Dave. Thank you again for having these connections and being able to bring these wonderful people on to the podcast and for you, the audience member who are listening to this. And watching this on YouTube. Thank you so much for joining us on today's episode of the beyond just podcast from David and I. We want to thank you so much. Have a great day and happy conservation.