Deep Sea Exploration: Jonatha Giddens on Connecting People to the Ocean Through Science and Storytelling

1:00:01 Jonathan Giddens is joining us on today's episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. She is a deep sea ecologist. She is a National Geographic Explorer, and she is here to talk about her journey in becoming what she is today, an amazing ecologist and just somebody who's technology for marine exploration. I'm looking forward to having this show. So let's start the Beyond Jaws podcast. Hey everybody. Welcome back to another exciting episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. I'm your co-host, Andrew Lewin here with my other co-host or my co-host, not my other co-host. There's only one co-host, Dave. Dave, Dr. David Ebert. Dave, how you doing? I'm doing good, Andrew. Yeah. I wish it was to me sometimes. I guess so many things going on.

1:00:44 Can't get enough of you. No, no. It's like, so yeah. Well, yeah. Well, I'm here looking forward to talking to Jonathan today. I've had, I've known her for several years now. We've collaborated on probably five or six publications now on deep sea sharks. And as you mentioned in the opening, her background is more in deep sea ecology and reef ecology. And we kind of got connected several years ago because she was seeing these unusual sharks and wanted to know what they were. And sort of one thing led to another. And it's been kind of a nice collaboration between us. And I thought, hey, she, we need to have her on the show. She has a fascinating career trajectory. She lives out in the Hawaiian islands, beautiful area, at least my experience out there.

1:01:29 And yeah, I thought it just be fast. She has a fascinating story. I thought it'd be really good for everyone to hear her story and how she wound up doing sharks. It definitely was. I hadn't had any contact with her before this podcast. And again, you bring in always the great people that that you do and, you know, throughout the years. And it was really interesting to see her experience and her journey, you know, talking about being very introduced to water very early at family reunions and then like of other places, right? Like really cool areas and then good experiences around water and then going into deep sea exploration using technology. I think it's just phenomenal, especially in in today's 2025 with the way technology is used on an ocean exploration.

1:02:14 So it's kind of cool to get that that thought process. So without further ado, here is the interview with Dr. Jonathan Givens talking or sorry, we're gonna do that again. And here is the interview with Jonathan Giddens talking about her career in deep sea exploration and as a National Geographic Explorer. Enjoy. And we will talk to you after. Hey, Jonathan, welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast. Are you ready to talk about the deep sea? I am ready. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. You bet. Well, welcome to another episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast where we have an absolutely awesome guest today. Dr. Jonathan Giddens. Jonathan has one of those positions that most of us early in our career sort of aim for.

1:02:55 And that is she works with the National Geographic. She's and she is a National Geographic Explorer and ocean ecologist. And with it with the with folks on document and characterizing deep sea biodiversity, particularly sharks. Why else? What else are just study out there? In her role as a science lead for the National Geographic Exploration Technology Labs deep sea camera program, Jonathan works at the intersection of marine science and technology to help advance exploration and research into the largest yet least explored ecosystem on Earth. And that's the deep sea through the labs flagship technology access and training program, the deep sea collaboration opportunity. Jonathan collaborates with and helps build capacity among a global network of National Geographic Explorers grantees working to harness the transformative, transformative potential of marine technology to build our knowledge of global marine biodiversity and to inspire and inform marine conservation action.

1:03:50 Before joining that geo, Jonathan worked with several federal and state agencies with NGOs and with research organizations conducting coral reef fish ecology studies in Hawaii. Another great location to probably work in and also in remote protected areas across the Pacific. As a scientist by training and an artist at heart, Jonathan blends artistic practice with scientific research to illustrate our interconnectedness with the ocean from the shallow reefs to the deep sea. Jonathan grew up in the foothills of the Catskill Mountains in western Massachusetts and then moved to the nearest coastal spot she could as a teenager. She then later sailed to Hawaii on a tall ship in early 20s and the islands have been her home ever since. She has over 25 research publications and even four or five with me, which is kind of exciting.

1:04:35 And she's received numerous grants and awards. She's a frequent presenter at conferences, a public speaker, and she's featured in various media platforms. They mentioned she's occurred current positions as a science lead for the deep sea camera program for National Geographic. Her schooling is she did a bachelor's degree in marine science and in anthropology at the University of Hawaii at Hilo. She also has a master's of science in tropical conservation biology and environmental science, also from the University of Hawaii at Hilo. Her PhD is in zoology specializing in ecology evolution of conservation biology at the University of Hawaii at Manoa, where she also held the National Science Foundation graduate research fellowship. And with that, Jonathan, welcome to the show.

1:05:17 Wow, that's a lot of stuff. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Yeah. That's a very nice introduction. I had to catch my breath there. That's a lot you've done. So well, first, I got to ask you what we always ask all of our guests when they come in. There's how did you get into marine science and sharks, particularly especially not grown up near the ocean? Well, I've always loved the ocean. I think one of my first memories of being a young child is when we did get to go to the ocean. It was we lived about it was like two hour, two and a half hours inland. It felt like forever for me. But luckily, my family, it was important with my aunts and uncles and grandparents.

1:06:00 We would have family reunions always by a body of water, most often the ocean. So that was my introduction to the ocean growing up. And I remember jumping into the water and just swimming as far out to sea as I could and kind of pretending that I was in the middle of the ocean and just leaving land. And I remember my mom's I can hear my mom's voice still on the shore, calling me back to land. And so I think even from a young age, we all knew my parents, my family, myself knew that I was very connected to the ocean. But, you know, I didn't really figure out how I would meet that that drive, you know, in my career.

1:06:44 And so it has been a very winding journey to get to where I am now living on the islands and working with with ocean explorers all over the world. So it's been quite a journey. I've had a lot of inspiring people in my life as sort of north stars to kind of show the way a little bit and find my way to this where I am. So when you're when you're growing up in Massachusetts and you're going out down to the ocean, did you ever at that time at an early age, you ever imagine like was Hawaii somewhere on your radar or was it just more you want to be at the ocean? It was just it was the ocean Hawaii was not on my radar at all.

1:07:28 It was basically was the kind of the first things first is like get to the coast, get to the nearest coast as I could and I and learn to dive. So that's what I did. I so after high school, I didn't I hadn't found a college that I felt comfortable with. I, you know, I was like, let me take some time and figure this out before I go somewhere and just go down this, you know, without thinking about thinking about it. So I knew I wanted to be in the water. So I learned to dive. I became kind of an apprentice dive master in that dive center, the Cape and divers in Gloucester, Massachusetts, where the perfect storm.

1:08:12 Right. Oh, yeah. The movie took place. You can imagine that. So, yeah, it was called the Golf of Maine Cold Waters. We were diving every month of the year, except for January. But February, we were out there shoveling snow off the deck of the boat and going out and diving in in wet suits or for me anyways, in what suits. But just that. Cold water. It deserves a wetsuit. Yeah. But I mean, I think most people had actually dry suits and I just made it work with it, made it work with a wetsuit. Yeah. What was it? I guess it was a water temperature just for. Oh, it was in the, you know, 40 years. Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. You can and you can only you could barely see five feet in front of your face. And I just thought that was great.

1:08:58 I love it. And so I guess it's a good thing I didn't have Hawaii on my mind because as soon as we used to do these are these trips down to Key Largo, Florida. So as part of my advanced training, my advanced diver training with the with the dive center, we went dove in Key Largo on those wrecks. And so I have nice memory of that first memory diving into the warm water, the clear water, the tropics. And so it's hard. It's hard to go back to cold water. I don't know. But actually it was on that ship on that on that dive boat with that kind of I remember sitting on the dive boat on a this is how I got to Hawaii, basically.

1:09:44 So I was early early to our teen and a teenager early 20s, I guess, sitting on this dive boat as a, you know, a decade. I was working on my captain's license and we so getting the days at sea and such. And I was sitting on the dive boat waiting for the divers to come up and I saw a tall ship going by in the waters of Gloucester, Massachusetts. And I just thought it was here. I'm like, this is, you know, the what was it? It wasn't the two thousand wasn't quite the yes, no, it wasn't the it was the 2000. Yes. I was like, who who is sailing on a tall ship? That's like 18th century stuff. Who's on who's on this boat? And then so Dave Stillman, my dive instructor, the owner of the dive shop, he said, you know, there he knew I was kind of, you know, love the ocean and was in a kind of middle kind of searching point of my career. And he had the idea.

1:10:43 He said, you know, there's this or there's this semester at sea program called Sea Education Association out of Woods Hole where they take students such as yourself. Whereas you have the students have the opportunity to sail on a on a semester and get college credit and sail on the ocean. And I thought, I'd like to do that. So that I applied and I got in and it was the opportunity is you could either go in the Caribbean or you could go on the ship on in the Pacific. And I remember asking a colleague at the dive shop, what do you think I should do? And he said, you know, the Caribbean is a lot more accessible to us on the East Coast. Like, who knows how else you would get to the you would get to the Pacific and Hawaii like I would go for that.

1:11:27 So what happened was I I did that semester. That was an amazing program for anybody who's looking for that experience. We sailed from Mexico down to the equator to Hawaii over six weeks. And after being six weeks at sea, we arrived in Hilo Harbor. And that's where I fell in love with Hawaii. And that's where I discovered that they have a university there.

1:12:14 And I was like, hey, I'm an alum. I'm here at UH Hilo now. And I just wanted to say hi. And I was like, there's a university here. Yeah, it's a great program. And so that was it. I you know, I finished I kind of stayed on as a. I stayed on the ship for a little bit. I did some little bit of traveling. I kind of finish up some stuff. And then within the next year, I had applied and gotten into Hilo. And I've been here ever since I've never heard a story like that, where it's like, you know, you're on a dive boat. You look up, there's a tall ship. Like, how do I get on one of those? Oh, there's this great semester at sea program. They're like, I just you're so right.

1:12:55 Because like, if you're on the East Coast, like I live in Ontario, Canada. And like the Caribbean is way more accessible to get to than and cheaper to get to. And so it's easier to make those those those trips and dives, which is still wonderful to dive in the Caribbean. And but you took me until I was 40 to go to Hawaii before, you know, and I just write where I got my discovery of Hawaii. And I don't blame you for not leaving. It's a beautiful state. It's a. And I've only been to a Wahoo. But so Hilo is that that's on that's on the Big Island. Yeah, yeah. So he loves the second biggest city in in Hawaii. And yeah, beautiful. It still has that kind of like old school feel very kind of country.

1:13:40 Yes, it was great with the for the I love that I was there for my undergraduate, especially because of the small class sizes, the opportunities really, you know, really know your professors and they're so supportive. And so for me, as I had, you know, taken a while to actually find my place that I wanted to go to undergraduate, I kind of had experienced a lot already. And I was ready to dive into the work and to make connections. And and from there, I could really build the projects that and the connections that led me through to build my master's work and then into my PhD.

1:14:20 So how I'm sure people kind of what like how long from like, say, when you graduate high school to until you actually started university. I know I I kind of lost track of time during this time, but it might have been around like four or five years. Okay. Of a gap year. Of a gap year. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes, yeah, you just sometimes people and in part of us because you didn't really you weren't really a hundred other than being around the ocean and being in the sea. You weren't exactly sure which like you didn't grow up think like, well, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna be like Matt Hooper from Jaws and go study because you grew up in New England grow go study Jaws or go see sharks. It was more of a an evolution for you. You knew you wanted to be around the ocean.

1:15:06 Well, I so I did know I had an experience in high school and actually this connects back with National Geographic. The inspirational power of National Geographic in that and so this is I knew I wanted in high school. It was like a moment of seeing this incredible oceanographer deep sea Explorer speak at my school and that was Dr. Robert Ballard. I found the Titanic and many other amazing discoveries. He spoke at my school. I had the opportunity to sit right in front of him and just see he that's when he you know he was telling us about how much there was to explore of the deep ocean and how his generation couldn't do it all.

1:15:49 It was our generation that needed to go do it and that really activated me and I knew at that moment I was maybe 17 years old. I was like wow, that's what I want to do. That was kind of like my big pie in the sky goal. The trouble was I didn't know like how I could get there and what opportunities were really available to me. So that's what I want to do but what what are all the there were a lot of I guess barriers and trying to find my way how to how to meander the maze to get there and you kind of like well I can't I don't know how to get there now but at least I can dive in the ocean be close to the ocean.

1:16:31 Be close to the you know community of explorers and just be in the general area of that so oh cool yeah that's I think it's interesting like in the last is typical a lot of people if you had someone that you you heard speak or something or that you got or that you got to know that had had an inspirational impact influence on your on your on your life and the direction you went there. So so you wound up in Hawaii and looks now you're in Hawaii all of a sudden lean it's beautiful tropical. I went in the Pacific and he started a school at this point now did you know like you want to do marine biology or were you still kind of oh for sure yeah I I didn't know I guess you know so I guess for anyone who's you know I had a hesitation only in that like I before I was in Hawaii.

1:17:26 I had a hesitation of myself as a scientist I thought scientists were you know people in a lab people are really good at math you know I came more from an arts and humanities background which is more this is also why I did an anthropology degree when I took these as a you know a double majors because when I took these anthropology classes about how to think like a cultural cultural anthropology. I was like this is how my mind already works you know and it was the science side that really needed developing and at first I wasn't I remember there was a slight hesitation and that you know seeing all these you know calculus and all these science classes I would have to take and wow can I really do this.

1:18:14 But there were you know trusted people I would ask for advice and they encouraged me to go for it and then I and really the answer was that it's just a well in at least for it for starting school and for getting into the university it's really all about the connections that you make and then I had the same kind of hesitation questioning about when I was about to start my PhD like can I really be a doctor and. And the answer was from a mentor of mine she said that it's all about tenacity like it you know we can all do this it's not about you know what you're coming with as far as what you are have already developed or or what comes naturally it's about your tenacity to to follow through and those things.

1:19:04 Well now that looking back I totally agree on that so I think that anybody who has I mean I've spoken with other people who are have a passion about you know marine conservation environmental science but don't necessarily have that natural affinity to science or also don't see themselves as a scientist right away. But just to say that don't let that stop you because you know through the education and the community you can you can build those skills and that's what it's all about. I'm curious when you started your undergraduate did you already have in mind you might go to a pursue a graduate or even a PhD or you just try to get through undergrad.

1:20:02 No it yeah at that point it was still kind of like the same mindset that I had when I was just diving I'm like this is good like I'm in the right place I'm in the ocean I'm surrounded by ocean people this is good. And then it with my undergrad I remember feeling like I'm in the right place you know what I did have what was really nice was towards the end as I was getting close to graduating there was one class a traditional Hawaii marine resource management class what's it was amazing and through we did we had the opportunity to develop projects that we could.

1:20:43 You know, do with comparing some kind of ecology coral coral reef ecology and the main Hawaiian Islands and the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands. So that was the first time with that class that I got to go to a marine protect a remote marine protected area up in the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands. And from that we were invited to then give a presentation at the Hawaii conservation conference and so as an undergraduate I had the opportunity to prison to go to a conference and present and I remember at that conference feeling like you know I don't know what. Well, I don't know what opportunities are going to come but I know that as long as I keep going to conferences like this, I'll be in the right place as long as I'm still around these people talking about these things, then that is the right place for me so it was kind of more like just being in the in the right place for that time and I didn't.

1:21:44 And so it hadn't yet occurred to me to do even a masters until my. And so I guess when that project presented itself, that's when I knew like, yeah, this is it. Yeah, go for it. He spent the time in Chile for knows that part of your undergraduate programmer.

1:22:29 Yeah, that was during undergraduate. So I think there was a yeah there was a part of my undergraduate where I was still very much, you know, wanting to explore the wider world or just seeing like the wider opportunities that I could participate in that were available through the university. I love the Spanish language and I wanted to experience other cultures I have since I was young and so I saw that opportunity to do a semester in Chile and being a Del Mar and that was yeah, it was wonderful. It was exploring all around South America and making friends and just experiencing another culture. So that has been very helpful actually to now with my travels around the world is to have at least one other language background that helps me kind of navigate through similar different languages.

1:23:25 I can kind of understand other romance languages, but my speaking has has kind of not I haven't kept that up as well. Probably in Hawaii. It's not such it not as good a place like if you're in California would not be a problem at all. Yeah, you'd be doing great. You'd be in great here. So what other countries did you get? Would you explore when you're in when you're in South America? Besides we would go to Argentina a bunch of back and forth. Wasn't your undergrad. I got to go to New Brunswick in my undergrad. That's not at all. What's going on here? Yeah, well, we did so we discovered the bus system in South America and we just take these long bus rides all up and down the Chile coast. So all up to Bolivia and Peru and yeah, Argentina.

1:24:18 I think those were the main ones, but some of it like we found a place that we like like the Atacama desert and we just keep going there and nice. Oh, yeah. How long were they just a semester or do you stay longer? That was that was one semester of the course. I stayed a little bit extra because we had the opportunity to do some backcountry hiking in Patagonia. So okay. Oh, awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Well, while you're there, you might as well as well. Yeah. So this is like this was an option in your program. Like you could do like a semester away. It's such a do you find like this is a lot of other students in your program take advantage of this like to do this type of thing or was this something that you decided to do maybe with a couple of friends or even just on your own because I don't hear people going on these types of semesters away as much as as a as I thought people would I guess it's expensive too. I'm sure but still.

1:25:15 Yeah, well at that point I was just like as far as the expense of I was just borrow, you know, I was you need to as a student you're borrowing money anyway. So I might as well borrow and go hell. Yeah. Yeah. I want to add on to it because you gotta live your experience. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So but you're right. No, there was especially within the marine science program. There certainly wasn't anybody else. Um I so I took a lot of extra classes. During my undergrad, I would like get I would go to the registrar's office and have them sign off to allow me to take all these to like overload myself by a lot which you need sign off and they're like, what are you? Are you trying to graduate fast? I'm like, no, I already have all my credits. I'm just really interested in all these like all these classes are available. So this is what happens when you are when you are away from school for a while then you really appreciate what these classes are.

1:26:13 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're not just going through the motions anymore. You're actually, you really want to go back and learn. Yeah. Yeah. It's an important lesson that people listen to young people listening at the time you took off really benefited you later on when you went back to school because you really appreciated it and then taking a lot of the different different courses. And so, did you know when you were doing your undergraduate, did you um were you doing any diving instructing or were you doing any? Oh, yeah, I did. I did both. II started off doing diving and instructing for the other students because I was like, hey, I'm an instructor who wants to learn and uh so II, it was really fun. I got to, you know, run it through the university and I'd have these big classes and I'd have a lot of fun.

1:27:05 Yeah. I didn't really, I didn't do classes and I wasn't trying to make money off of it. I just wanted to do it so we could have all these people and it was a lot of fun but it was a lot to work and it was also really stressed. It was also very kind of stressful because all of a sudden I'm like responsible for everyone's safety and everything and and so what happened with that is the first time I had some friends who are like, hey, we're you know, uh were these research divers on this project. Do you want to join and I'll probably go through a whole lot of stuff that we do. divers on this project do you want to join? And I remember going on the first research dive with my two friends and I it was just the three of us and we are just out diving doing our thing and I thought this is better and so I have only ever done research diving since then so I really like research diving.

1:27:52 Yeah we were able to work much diving into your thesis project at all? Yeah it was all it was the bulk of it was diving we did a five-year predator removal experiment on patch reefs on the Kona coast of Hawaii so the beautiful Kona side and so the question for that were there's these groupers that had been introduced in the 50s that have in order to be a food fish but unfortunately they have saguatera which is a toxin and so people don't eat them and they don't like them and so the question was what are the impact of this introduced species and so in a collaboration with the Nature Conservancy we did a five-year predator removal experiment on these patch reefs where with local fishermen who are involved we fished down one reef and then monitored the reef over a period of the next four years to see you know what were the impacts on the native fish assemblage so it was a management question that the community was interested in as well and it had us had me you know in the water regularly and I got to dive on that for my thesis and also had I was kind of like the fish diver that people would call if they needed help with fish diving so that that was like the division of aquatic resources I got to work with them and then they through that they I guess my name was kind of given over to Noah who

1:29:24 needed fish divers for their you know Pacific wide campaigns monitoring reefs throughout the Pacific so spending months at sea diving with Noah so that's when I really fell in love with just being out on being with that community of awesome scientists out on a ship just diving every day in the water every day it just goes to show I think Dave you mentioned this earlier but you know about having that one skill that one skill allowed you to network not only to participate in all these things but allowed you to participate in the research but also network with all the people who were working as you mentioned like I got out to meet all these really cool scientists and doing all that work that must have helped you later on in in your career yeah absolutely and that's another thing about the University of Hawaii Hilo that small you know relatively small college and close connection with the professors there they have this course called quest quantitative underwater ecological surveying techniques where you go and you can't it's like again you're getting school credit you go and you camp out on the beach on the Kona side for I think it's like two weeks and you get you you through it you become a scientific diver you get that certification of and you learn all the you know fish counts and the benthic counts all the different techniques you would use you even learn and I was kind of actually my first real introduction to

1:30:55 statistics and you know entering data and analyzing it all in the field presenting it so it's a really amazing experience like class in the field that you come out with your scientific diver and then with that certification that's what really opened up yeah all those opportunities with our with different projects with Noah yeah that's an amazing so when you're did you when you're at Hilo you because of all this stuff is how is that that kind of led you to move over to the Oahu for your for your PhD work yeah yeah so Hilo was that they offer the master's degree through the is the the highest you could go and so in order to go further I needed to move over to Oahu so I was a little bit anxious at first about moving from the country to the big city but I actually love it here so it's been great yeah yeah yeah so now when you got over there how did this whole thing come about like with your PhD student you seem like you got you're able to get on with Noah and do a lot of things because of your diving skills how did the whole thing with Noah was diving skills how did the whole thing with National Geographic come up so this came up through so my advisor Alan Friedlander was a chief scientist for the National Geographic pristine sees expeditions at the time so my advisor was going out on all these adventures he was you know he you know he was out at sea

1:32:27 going to all these amazing places and we would see him every once in a while and when he came back and he came back and he was going to be a he came back with a kind of a question for me and that he the National Geographic had was starting to use these deep sea cameras more they had just developed well the first iterations were developed in 2009 they had just recently made them smaller and more usable so they were using more and he was coming back with these hard drives full of deep sea data that he didn't have time to use it to deal with and so he had me handed me these hard drives and said here can you figure this out and so that was kind of like a side project for me to that was my introduction to the deep sea was going through this video footage and being like what's going on in here you know actually why I remember going into his office when we were first started talking about you know me taking on that work and the project and he we were looking at the hard drives and what we were looking at was the clipper And you also had this nigra directing hotzen footage of the East Pacific ghost shark that aggregation that you and I ended up because you're the one who was like hey this is kind of cool we should write a paper Of the item I remember that was the first thing I saw looking at the hard guys was just like what is going on here what are these things and like their yeah so it kind of drew me in

1:34:01 you're telling that story because so many times people like yourself come into possession of stuff like that and where someone like me would love to see something like that and they're just, fortunately for you and I, we kind of crossed paths and it was like, hey, what's this stuff here? And like, oh geez, that's really awesome. Yeah. (laughing) You know, otherwise it just sits and nothing ever happens with it. Yeah, otherwise if I couldn't have asked you and you have that insight, otherwise it'd be like, oh no, like this is terrible. I can't figure this out, I don't know what it is. And it will just remain in obscurity and just be like, I'm terrible at this identifying thing. Yeah, oh yeah, and that was, so you're going through all of this stuff here.

1:34:43 At what point did you develop any interest or was it just part of the job you're doing as far as sharks and go sharks and rays? Did that, is there any point like, it's like, wow, these are kind of cool, the kind of the Cadillac of fishes out here, the sharks. Yeah, I guess the-- Cadillac of fishes, I love it. Yeah, that's a great description. There's kind of two sides to the story, I guess, based on my previous experience of diving a lot and just being in the water, I've had the most experience and the most connection to sharks from being in the water from diving, especially the hammerhead sharks.

1:35:25 I was, for a period of time, actually in the middle of my undergrad, I went for a summer job working on this, on a live aboard dive boat off of Kona, Hawaii. It turned out to be a year and a half because I was having such a good time, but then I did go back to school once I felt ready. But during that time, there was this one dive site that we would go to just about every week. And what I found was that, so how we would hook up to the mooring is we'd send a diver in and they'd go down to the mooring and we'd send a line down, the diver would hook up the mooring.

1:36:05 And for our morning sites, this was very early in the morning. And at this one particular site, when I'd go down there, there would be one hammerhead cruising by and I would see that hammerhead every time I was there. I would come up and I would tell everybody, "There's a hammerhead, it's so exciting, you guys are gonna see this hammerhead." And they'd get all excited, but nobody else would see it. So after a while, I learned not to tell them so that they wouldn't be disappointed. But I still insisted that I would be the one to go down and hook up at that particular site. So then it just became like my, kind of like a secret of this one hammerhead that I would see every time. So that was like my first, really personal connection to an ocean animal.

1:36:49 And then I also had the experience of diving, again, through working for that live at board dive boat company, we could dive on any of the boats in the world for free during our time off. And so I would go, I went to the Galapagos and to Cocos Island. And there you can just dive with the schools of hundreds and hundreds of hammerhead sharks. So those sharks really had an impact on me in that I just felt, they're just awesome. So I loved sharks, you know, through my experience in the water. But, you know, it's funny that you ask about, you know, through my work and when did I realize that of, you know, that the hammer, the sharks are the Cadillac of the fishes.

1:37:34 And it's because of the cameras that we use, these deep sea cameras that the National Geographic Exploration Technology Lab developed that we send down to the, they do benthic surveys, stationary benthic surveys of the deep sea floor for biodiversity. Mega fauna. So, but they're, they're baited. And so they attract the, you know, the predators, the scavengers that come in. And so after, you know, years of doing this, I've just noticed that, like, every single exciting discovery, that every single exciting observation we've made has, it's been sharks, like sharks are the star of the show.

1:38:17 They're, they're the big excitement. That's what it lights me up. It's what everybody gets excited about. So that's really kind of turned my, my attention to just, you know, sharks in general and especially the deep sea sharks. And the other, I guess the other part of that is, you know, when we would have these observations and so, for example, like the Pacific sleeper shark in Palau with low closets, again, that was sort of like a, when it first happened, we saw this shark and we're like, wait, what, why is this, why is this here? This doesn't make any sense. And at first you just think like, oh, I'm really bad at, at ideaing things.

1:38:58 But then being able to ask you, Dave, you know, hey, what do you think? And then I remember your response. It wasn't just like, it wasn't just the data, like, oh, it's a range extension. It was, hey, this is, you know, it's likely a range extension. And but you also had a story behind it that you had worked, you had worked with the Pacific sleeper shark in your career and it had specific meaning to you. And I remember just feeling like, and it's kind of similar like that through all the shark species that we see in their observations, as they all kind of like have a significance and a meaning and they have their own story. And so I, when, when a shark shows up, I like to kind of, that just happens to pass by our camera.

1:39:43 And then I get to learn about that shark. It's life history and what's going on. So they just teach me so much. And I, I really like that. I got to ask, I haven't really talked to you about this, but like, how did on this, on this Pacific sleeper shark from Palau, how did you happen to get to know low, low closets there? Who is? Oh, yeah. So low. That was the first year that we ran the deep sea collaboration opportunities through the exploration technology lab. So that represented kind of a shift in focus where a prior the society and the lab with the deep sea work, we were kind of, you know, doing different collaborations or sort of ad hoc in terms of who had access to the cameras.

1:40:28 And particularly there, Christine sees was the group that got to use the cameras the most. That was the data that we worked with the most. So with the deep sea collaboration opportunity, the idea was to have a way for explorers. So National Geographic explorers are grantees that the society supports with funding. So once they, they, they get a grant or an award for their work in science, exploration, storytelling, anything along those lines to illuminate and protect the wonder of the world. So that's the global network of National Geographic explorers.

1:41:10 And the idea is within that explorer community is to invest in these in these incredible people by giving them access to tools and technologies to be able to better do their work. And so with the deep sea collaboration opportunity, that was an opportunity through funding and then also hands on support. So that I go out in the field with them to help deploy the cameras. That's the idea of the deep sea collaboration opportunity to equip them with this these tools. And so Lowe was the one of she was in the first cohort. So she was the second person that I went out with.

1:41:50 And we had that crazy experience of like, what am I getting into? I, I get it. I said, because it's this is actually kind of an interesting story how, how, how collaborations happens because you and I had collaborated before. And then when you guys had this sleeper shark, I didn't know low at all. And it turned out that she's actually South African and she did her PhD, the same university I did at Rhodes University in Grams down where, of course, there's a, let's say a bit of an age difference when I, when, when I finished versus when she finished. But anyway, but she, you guys reached out to me at the time and I didn't know her as I mentioned. And then we did this, published this paper on the, on the Pacific sleeper shark.

1:42:33 And then I can't remember, it was like maybe 10, 12 months later, maybe up to maybe, I don't know, but it was even quite a year later. She wrote me that she had some more interesting rays in sharks as she was seen at the fish markets. And I'm thinking like she's still in Palau and she mentioned like, Oh no, I'm actually in Timor, Leslie. And I'm like, Oh, really? What are you doing in Timor, Leslie? And she says she basically was now working for world fish. Well, shorts.

1:43:26 It was an amazing musical series called landed by the English which is like 1500 miles away and it's like one of the first can first in suit to record of this thing and First time one had been confirmed in like, you know a decade or more. So Anyway, turn into a whole really cool project. We got a paper out of it a little note out of it and But but just yeah, I just mentioned that people listening. That's how collaborations work sometimes. Yeah Yeah, there we were again. So then the next time lo and I were together again. We were like Dave I remember when I was I I'll go through the footage at the end of the day just quickly to see if everything's You know working right and whenever and I saw this I didn't know what it was I just knew I'd never seen it before and I sent the little screenshot to lo and She had sent it off to you. And so it's like well, no wonder I'd never seen it before nobody's ever seen it Oh, that was a that was a first time anybody got in this video of the shark and sit it was like 580 meters or so and the only records of it are like I said that was described from Bali and Lombok in Indonesia It's like I can't remember here 1500 miles or 1500 kilometers There's it was quite a lengthy extension and no one had ever filmed one. They'd only they only had been seen in fish markets dead So it turned out a whole number of a whole number of fronts. It turned into a quite an intro quite an exciting discovery For us and stuff. And so just one more

1:44:57 like it was just a it was just a really interesting thing And and just for people is it low? She actually works on seahorse and there's her specialty So she didn't even do a work on sharks at all, but she's learning now Yes, and the same thing It's just like all these sharks keep showing up and they're so exciting and it's so nice to share and we love it And that's what I love about the deep sea cameras and the deep sea collaboration Opportunity is that it just opens up those avenues for people who are interested and and willing to I mean you really have to persist I have to give credit to low both of those expeditions in Palau and in Timor at work not easy They were one of the most difficult are some of the most difficult where you're just faced We're just being like oh not again You know all these things and things are falling apart and but you just keep going and persist and then that magic happens So I love that that happens with Yeah, I haven't been to Palau but I Timor I could see that being a hard a tough area to work in Going out there and I get it. I do we did I did a pot and when I did a podcast last fall I talked to quite a bit about Timor just as as a fascinating place and but it was it was definitely not an easy place to work in and I can't even I can't imagine you guys are out at sea putting down the Put down this drop camp. I got to ask you to do it. You get a chance to any diving there We did a little bit of snorkeling while

1:46:29 we were waiting for the cameras We just kind of get in the water and go check out the reef. So it was beautiful that yeah It sits right there Just so people know if you're probably looking at a map to find it Timor or less tea It's all used to be called East Timor, but it sits right on the edge of the coral triangle And it's just I didn't get it when I was there I didn't get a chance to dive but I saw a lot of the videos and photos that people Had taken there, and I'd go back just to go diving. Yeah, I spent a week diving It was like it literally a lot of places look just like postcard picture postcards of the place there, so And so how did you happen so Timor is it because you knew low was there is how you ended up going or?

1:47:11 Yeah, that's so the we have with the deep sea collaboration opportunity we open the applications once a year and Then the explorers will apply and so we'll select from those applicants the cohort for that year And so it's really you know who it's kind of driven by Whoever applies and where they are where they want to do the work and then we select those so Yeah, so that's how we got out the team or okay, okay And now and now so you've been out to let you've been out tonight even the team or instead of how do you so every? Year when you guys when you you're part of the the review team that just Looks through those things so when you decide Where you want to go is it is it based on well this one?

1:47:55 This is this is an interesting area has a lot of scientific merit, or is it like hey I really like to go there. This is kind of cool place You know it really has a lot to do with feasibility Even if there is some place that's really cool that I would like to go the Kind of the feasibility. We are limited in that. It's it's a one-week collaboration period and which is short for You know the amount that we could do and especially if as things happen like weather and things you kind of lose days here And there and so you know the feasibility of what can we do within a week? We also like to distribute Amongst you know different applicants, and we couldn't resist Going with low twice just because she's awesome. Yeah That was yeah, it's been it's easy to have a successful Expedition with her, but yeah, did you try to distribute among regions among explorers?

1:48:59 Yeah, we try to kind of touch on all those bases I guess but probably the the interesting place that I want to go to is probably is the least of the the criteria Yeah, yeah, and so like you're certain that so you kind of got into this because of your professor Out was Alan Yeah, so so he was doing this This was kind of your entryway and to get into doing this stuff with National Geographic Yeah, so I started as a kind of a research assistant with pristine seas With and most it was kind of more general as just assistance with the science in general But he really wanted me and I just love my passion was the deep-sea cameras and so through that like real focus I kind of Was just dove into it more as part of the exploration technology lab at a point where the cameras were Get it at that point when I was looking at the the video footage The cameras were also getting to a point where they could be not just deployed by the engineers themselves But they were kind of more mature and ready to be able to train People on the cameras to use the cameras without the engineers actually being there they're still a bit tricky, but but it's we've kind of like

1:50:30 streamlined the process a lot and so now they're at a point where not only I can use them but I can You know bring them and have other explorers use them as well so that's been kind of my journey with the cameras is taking them from At a point when they're they're at this like technological readiness or maturity to be able to to be used more integrated into more of the marine science world and contribute to global marine science data Did you have any special? training in like he I mean were you a photographer just Normal ordinarily or just or just any special skills for that or you just learn on the job?

1:51:12 No, I learned on the job. I I Didn't have any training with like cameras. I don't really use them Myself personally, I like doing drawing. I like pictures I like images, but I like to do the drawings of those myself So yeah, I was on the job learning and and Yeah, learning as I go and but I do think that the my background in the shallow coral reef Ecology and being out at sea a lot with Noah and with D.A.R and then also my experience just diving and being on boats is kind of Really prepared me for kind of all those in unexpected all the kind of that Creativity you need in the field to deal with issues and to you know, it's creativity really You mentioned we know we mentioned that a couple times, but talk about your artistic Background Yeah, go ahead. Oh yeah, I guess I just grew up drawing and like everything I learned through school I would draw and it was just a part of me learning and incorporating my experience and something I loved and just It kind of the drawing so this is the other reason why I love National Geographic So much is because I felt like at my drawing and the artistic side that kind of right brain I really put on hold

1:52:43 while I pursued the science side and I really wanted to just like develop that left brain logical and and Develop those skills that I thought needed more work really to be a scientist and to think that way so like super logically and linearly but and so Through my I guess especially PhD I put that drawing on hold to To be a scientist and they'd like prove myself as a scientist and then once I finished my PhD That's when I really got really involved with National Geographic and going to their headquarters and being a part of their convenings and leadership Workshops and I found that the artistic side and especially the melding of the two sides of the brain and just thinking kind of creativity creatively alongside the the logic and the science was actually something that is Really celebrated and welcomed and so I felt encouraged to Bring up that part of myself again. And so now I you know within that community of National Geographic I feel like my my artistic side is all is like celebrated and supported and so now it's It's a part and it was actually through this one there was this one expedition in particular where I really got to meld those two, which is kind of I

1:54:14 Have now brought through my as I journey throughout the world now on all these different Expeditions, but there was one in particular with it was a collaboration between Linblad Charles Darwin Foundation in the Galapagos And actually Dave we published a paper from this one to The sixth Gill and the seven Gill shark range extensions But on that one that MIT some students and came out from MIT with Katie Croft Bell and on it was on that expedition Where I was think I was like, you know, we're gonna be on this boat this beautiful boat for a month And what if I brought? You know Journal kits for everybody so like dry young Books notebooks and colored pencils and kind of like a guidebook and everybody does a journal and it got me to really think about how to incorporate art and science in In the field on expedition and just doing kind of bringing the artistic side not just collecting data but also cool also kind of using more of our senses and getting kind of more of the personal context and all the the parts of the Experience that are kind of missing if you only come back with the data so that was really nice to that kind of bring that to our that expedition and then I've been using that journal guide ever since as I go and I must say that most like you like Timor left a lot of these places are really difficult

1:55:44 It's not a place to like sit and draw. I've learned that and so now Rocket aisles Recover from food poisoning. It's like I had food poisoning most of the time I was Yeah, so but now it's once I get back home I'll do a drawing and it really helps to kind of just integrate that whole experience and then I have a You know like a picture and it's just some some nice context and just something I like to do and I'm really happy that it's a part of my work as well. Oh cool. That's that's really neat That's really so how many how many of these expeditions do you do a year?

1:56:30 So we said the first year we started in well 2021 was still covet and that's the year that we started about midway through the year and we did two in that year so from I guess we started in September we did September and December that year so 2022 was our first full year of doing it and we did six Plus an extra plus that Linblad one. So we did eight expeditions that year Wow and and so So that was an experience a learning experience where we've like honed it down a little bit Yeah, more manageable. So now we do five of these deep sea collaboration opportunities a year plus maybe another You know special collaboration opportunity with another project or something like that. So that's a bit more manageable Yeah, I was gonna say it's got I just know what it takes to get one of these expeditions together It's just you know, you're doing like seven or eight or something a year. It's like I don't know where you'd find the time Well, you know what I I found myself is there were some where I would just spend like five nights in a row sleeping on airplanes and I to get from one expedition to another one remote place to another I had to make ten flights without any delays and I don't

1:58:01 know how that happened because now I would know ten flights in a row with No major delays. We did have some but but you know how sometimes the delays are like, okay days later You can get there. There was no way because it was like if the ship leaves the ship leaves It's so there was no wiggle room. And so that's something that happened on the on the first year So we try to also, you know space them out a little bit There was a there's a couple times where I just I mean Hawaii is is it's a great place to recover But it's also hard to get to So I would have like two days at home, which was just you know It was very I guess disorienting and some and like five nights sleeping on an airplane You know one is enough and five is a lot Yeah, I'll tell you it doesn't get I've done that it doesn't get any easier as you get older and you're just a kid It's like man yeah, I used to be the like time to get some work done or something like on the plane or Yeah, yeah, no, it's like now it's like I now I just put on my headphones And like that's turn off all the electronics and just sleep for a bit.

1:59:15 Yeah, I have like I have my hoodie and I just put the hood down and I just like go into my some deep meditation It's funny when you're on those flights too. You can see people like that and you're like, you just I don't know what you're doing But yeah, I sort of get the like whatever it is It's something you're just going from one job to the next and this is your sort of yeah downtime that whatever the flight is on The on that trip and stuff Well, Jonathan has been an amazing Talk to talk with you today. We really appreciate you coming on I'll definitely want to have you come back and talk about some of your future expeditions But what advice would you have for like some young person starting out this like I want to go work for National Geographic, too. Oh Yes, well for National Geographic a great Great entry point is keep an eye on the grants portal on the National Geographic website. They're always updating what What RFP is what grant, you know what applicants they're looking for?

2:00:19 So look at those opportunities there to to get involved and to become a National Geographic through one of those Programs or whatever opportunity comes up there I think in general to just like Following up if you have kind of like a North Star idea if you want to be an ocean exploration as you've seen I guess through my story and through many others on the podcast that it is it can be very a winding road and I Think be I would say be persistent yet flexible Persistent in that you're kind of always bringing it back to what is you know Your passion and your mission like what is personally driving you what that that love or your yeah your mission What do you want to accomplish?

2:01:09 And also flexible in that like sometimes some parts of your life might be you know some chapters might be about honing one particular skill or You know just gaining experience or connection So it might look very different as you move through the different phases of your life But always bringing it back to that that core those core values and that core mission And I think that takes persistence yet flexibility. I know it's an oxymoron, but it's got it's like that dynamic. Yeah Yeah, yeah a dynamic dynamic. Yeah. Yeah, and just real quickly. Where are you off to next now? So on Sunday or not this the next Sunday. I go to Brazil region of by yeah, so I'm excited to go there yeah, oh awesome Yeah, that's that's very nice. Well Jonathan. Thank you so much for coming on the Podcast and we're definitely gonna have you back talk about some of your other adventures and your travels Going forward and keep us posted to if you have anything really super cool out of coming up Let us know to we'll have you come on to a bonus episode and share some more of your journey Okay, thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It was a wonderful to speak with you Thank you. Cool. Thanks a lot. Go. Thank you Jonathan for joining us on today's episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast It was great to have you on Dave look deep sea research. That's kind of your bag as well. You

2:02:40 found a lot of sharks in deep sea Using technology for exploration. What did you think of all this? Oh, it's great I mean, I you know, I knew a little bit but she had is What has had quite the career so far just even before she really got locked into her present position her career just kind of coming out from New England to the West Coast of Mexico to say to she was in Chile and just then Sailing to Hawaii and just decide like I like it here and staying and it's just sort of a It's a great story and I did some of the stuff. I knew a little better and some of it. I didn't know and Yeah, I was just a fascinating career trajectory for her and and then she wound up didn't wound up doing sharks of all things and her career here and Yeah, who knew you know, it's like I think one thing I you know You pick up listen to the episode is that you know, she was here This is cover I've had a number of collaborators like this over the years and she's like the one of the latest ones Is that she's just you know?

2:03:43 Seen all these weird wonderful sharks and rays in the deep sea and she wants to know what they are and then through You know mutual connections we got here and I got connected and it's been a great Collaboration just being able to identify some of the species you see and a lot of her just new records We just we talked a little about this one that just came out on the on this painted swell shark We found in Timor Lesty as you remember I was there last year and she was here about She was there a couple months after I was there working with low closins and her crew and They saw the shark and they said hey Dave. What is this and I go? Oh my goodness. It's a painted swell shark We haven't seen one of the we've never seen ones in situ like that swimming and we got a we got a publication out of it It's being featured in National Geographic now as we speak and we'll have a more Peer-reviewed paper coming out on it very soon. So it's great. It's it's just the kind of collaboration It's kind of why I go into the field just meet a wonderful array of people from all kinds of backgrounds That's what I love about it, too. It's it's such a An important part of science is that collaboration keeping in touch, you know building up those relationships with you know other researchers and other Scientists who explore just as much as you do and because you never know what you're gonna find You never know what you're gonna be able to assist in and Dave You've been part of that a number of times for a number of different people to assist in identifying sharks And especially sharks that haven't been seen in a long time and I think that's that's great It's testament to scientists and how we all collaborate and give

2:05:13 each other credit for it And I think that's that's really important so always nice to see that and it was always nice to have to meet Jonathan have her on the podcast to you know share it With with you guys the audience to understand what people are doing in different spots around the world This one in the Hawaiian Islands, which was which was wonderful to be able to to hear all the stuff that's going on in there So, yeah, thank you. Jonathan. We're gonna put all her links that she shares with us So that you can get a hold of her and you can get to know her a little better And then of course Dave if people want to get a hold of you, how would they do? lost shark guy on Instagram and my youtube channel a lost shark guy check out a series searching for lost sharks extinct or alive and Yeah, hit us up leave it leave a message and stuff also Andrew'll say on the Beyond Jaws love to hear from you. I hear any comments and feedback. We really appreciate it Yeah, absolutely our YouTube channel beyond Jaws pod and Instagram beyond Jaws pod Check us out. Love to hear it and thank you so much for listening to us. I want to thank Jonathan for joining us Dave Thank you again. It's always fun to co-host with you. And of course everybody listening, but thank you very much We really appreciate it and we look forward to talking to you next time here on the Beyond Jaws Podcasts from Dave and I have a great day. We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation