Ghost Sharks with Dominique Didier: Unveiling the Hidden World of Chimaeras

1:00:00 We have a great episode for you today. Dr. Dominique D.J. is here today to talk about her new book, just like an intro to her new book, "Go Sharks of the World." We're gonna talk about a little bit about her career. We're gonna talk about her getting into this book and doing it with our very own Dr. David Ebert. We're gonna talk about all that on today's episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. Let's start the show. Hey everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. I'm your cohost Andrew Lewin here with my cohost Dr. David Ebert. Dave, you're back from your trip, which we're gonna have a whole episode on that. But we're here today to talk to Dominique DJ about a book that you worked on with her as well as some others.

1:00:42 You must be super excited to talk to Dominique today. Oh yeah, now I'm really glad. She was on our fifth episode. Yeah, really looking forward to having her. I don't know why it's been so long since we've had her on the show. She's a great guest. So many other people, so many other people. Yeah, there's so many people out there. Yeah. But anyway, but I'm really excited. I mean, I couldn't even think about doing a book like this without somebody like her because she really is the queen of go sharks. I mean, she's really, if you want to, I mean, it's just, she's one of those people. Like she is literally like a legend in the field and it's just having the opportunity to work with her and her and I have collaborated going back 20 years or more now. Yeah. Mentor of co-mentored students and she's just a phenomenal person.

1:01:24 She's just a powerhouse to work with. And so I'm really, really excited to have her on and to kind of talk about the book, catch up with where else she's been up to and just talk about it. We got into a little bit. She's got a little side hustle going. Let's be honest. Oh yeah. Yep. We're good. We're not going to mention it now, but we just got a little side hustle, which has to do with biology, believe it or not. It's really cool. Can't wait to get into it. So let's do that. While we here's the interview with Dominique and joy, and we will talk to you after. Hey, Dominique. Welcome back to the Beyond Jaws podcast. Are you ready to talk about go sharks? Oh, you bet. I love it. Love it. Well, I want to welcome everybody to the Beyond Jaws podcast for today.

1:02:05 We have real royalty on the podcast with our highness. Dr. Dominique Didier as our special guest. Dominique's been dubbed the queen of ratfish by none other than illustrator extraordinaire Ray troll, who's been in a previous guest on our program. Dominique's a professor in the department of biology at Millersville University in Pennsylvania, where her research focuses on the taxonomy of Condry Thean fishes, evolution and systematic of fishes, comparative anatomy and development of fishes, and biology of human sexuality and gender. Dominique is one of our first guests appearing on our fifth episode way back on August 11th, 2021. And now we're up to episode 127. So it's been a little while and long overdue to have her back on the show.

1:02:47 Agreeing. She went to she attended for a bachelor's degree, Illinois's Westland University for a degree in biology. And she went on to the PhD in zoology at University of Massachusetts with Dr. Willie Bemis, who also the previous guest on our show. And he was her major advisor for her PhD. Dominique has a lengthy resume. It includes over 50 publications, numerous accomplishments, including being one of the most accomplished Condrythean taxonomist, having described most more ghost shark species than anyone else on this earth. She's a frequent collaborator of mine and has mentored many students, including some of my former students such as Kim Kim Caronta, Lewis Barnett, Kelsey James and Jenny Kemper to mention a few. Dominique and I are currently coauthoring a book ghost sharks the world with Jenny Kemper and Britt Fanucci with illustrations by another illustrator extraordinaire Mark Dando, the book we published next year by Princeton University Press.

1:03:39 And you follow us on social media. We'll let you know once we have a better date on that. She's also a member of the Jaws generation of researchers who started her career in the 1980s, even though she doesn't look that old. And she's also featured in the latest episode of searching for lost sharks extinct or alive, which you can find on my YouTube channel at Live Shark Guy. And with that, Dominique, welcome to the show. Great. Thanks. It's a pleasure to be back. Um, yeah, well, I got started, uh, looking at ghost sharks as an undergraduate at Illinois Wesleyan University. I actually believe it or not wanted to study bats, love bats. I think they're totally amazing. And but my professor at the time who studied bats said, no, no, no, too many bat people got to say something different.

1:04:21 So he brought out this like really horrible fish, you know, that we had the comparative anatomy lab. He's like, look at this thing. And I was like, oh, not the supreme ugliness. You kidding me? So, uh, but I was, you know, he was persistent. I was persistent. So I said, all right, I'll do it. So I started doing my undergraduate research on this fish. Uh, my professor actually bought a few new ones, which it turned out the one I was looking at was kind of rotten. That's why it looks so horrible. So after I started, though, I have to tell you, I've really dove into this research. And when I was looking, you know, when you do any kind of research, you got to find the background publications. I have to say my seminal publication I was dealing with was published in 1906.

1:05:01 That kind of tells you something about what people knew about this. Actually, there's another publication in 1965, they're called Patterson that dealt with fossil taxa, which I was dealing with the living fish, but it was incredibly helpful. Wonderful publication. But I realized like nobody's working on these and being a person who really hates competition, like sports are not my thing. Like no competition at all. I was like, this is for me. And that's what got me started. I just realized no one was doing it and someone had to love these things. And so I decided that's me. I just love them. How did you because you're from Illinois and you went to you went to your undergirder. That's I just got asked, how did you how did your professor pick up on ratfish in Illinois?

1:05:45 Well, I, you know, I don't know how he got the inkling that I kind of was interested in marine science. I have to say I was I was raised in a pretty unusual household. My parents were scuba divers in 1967. Literally, my mom read about Jacque Stowe and the, you know, regulator, you know, self-contained underwater breathing apparatus and said, we're going to do this, honey. And literally she and my dad went on a boat. Some guy gave him all the gear and said, go in the water. If you come up alive, you're certified. That was certification. And I kid you not. And they became certified scuba divers. And so they so I grew up with that.

1:06:26 Like that was weekends was going with them to a boat. They were out scuba diving. Then we started going to the Caribbean. I've been to places in the Caribbean, seeing reefs from like the early 1970s that are just were pristine at the time. You know, so I had a really rich childhood and I guess maybe I don't remember if I told that to my professor, but he knew I was interested kind of in marine science. And so I think that's why he pushed me to this this fish. And I've always had that interest in that that drive to be involved with the ocean and involved in marine science. OK, cool. And then obviously went out to know you went to University of Massachusetts Amherst and you hooked up with Willie Bemis. How that happened? Well, that was another really well thought out idea. Oh, man, do not track my choices because I did not plan anything.

1:07:15 How I got to graduate school as I was a T.A. in the comparative anatomy lab. And I don't know what I was going to do. I just kind of like biology. My professor said, what are you going to do after school? And I said, oh, I don't know. He said, why don't you go to grad school? And I went, well, what's that? Because my parents had never gone to college. And so right. And he said, well, you pretty much do this, but you get a PhD and then you teach college. Sounds good. Sign me up. And then we had to pick a grad school and he said, well, where are you going to go? I said, I don't know. I don't know anything about grad school. I said, where'd you go? He said, you mess Amherst. I said, all right, sounds good to me. I mean, that's not not a very trusting, very trusting person. Yeah. And actually how I got into Willie's lab is pretty funny. And I don't know if Willie will remember the story, but I went to meet him and visit the school.

1:08:01 But he wasn't there. He was off to a fieldwork. So when I went toward the campus, decided, yes, it's good. I'm going to go to grad school there. And at the time to sign up for classes, he walked around the card and the professor signed you into all your classes. I couldn't find Willie to save my life. I don't know what the guy looked like. So I went to the secretary's office and said, look, I'm supposed to be Willie's graduate student. Just sign me up to be in all his classes and work with him. And she's like, well, you really need his permission. I said, no, I'm like talking my way into it. I'm like, oh, he wants me. Don't worry about it. And then finally she said, you could ask him, he's sitting right there. Now that I feel like an idiot. Were he listening into the conversation? Yes, he can. Right next to me.

1:08:43 I'm talking my way into his lab. Yeah, it was not a really. I don't need it. It's fine. You knew that was going to go one or two ways. Either you're going to get a lab or you're going to be back home in Illinois. Pretty much. Yeah. That's a great. I don't think I'd heard that one before. No, it was a pretty funny story. That was how I first met Willie. Let me ask you this. You mentioned you were a TA during your undergrad. Isn't that I've never I've never heard of that before. Was that like a like a special thing or did you normally like the or the the university not have a graduate program where you had TAs? Like how did you become a TA as an undergrad? Well, I was really lucky. I went to, you know, Illinois West was a really small school.

1:09:27 Yeah. And, you know, I showed up as a bio major, you know, all young and bright eyed and I just worked really hard. I got a really good grade in my first class. And so the professor, you know, tapped me and said, you want to be a TA. So they often drew upon their top students to be TA. OK. I actually TA'd every single course I took there except for unreal. Except for the last senior year, because of course, I couldn't write back to it. But yeah, I TA botany, I TA development, I TA comparative anatomy. It was great. So but that's not like just a guy in Canada. We don't know that doesn't normally occur. Is that a is that a rare thing or is that more for smaller schools?

1:10:08 It's pretty rare. And I think even for small schools, it's kind of rare. I got pretty lucky. OK. Yeah, that's that's a fantastic opportunity. It was great. Like you learned so much more like you're it's almost like a second level of learning because you know, the course material. But now you're learning probably even more. Right. Yeah. Now, we didn't have you should have had you on the show when we did the we did a special Jaws fiftieth anniversary. So I got to ask you the question, did Jaws have any influence in your decision? I'm glad you didn't have me on the show because Jaws had no influence on me. All I remember is as a kid, you know, of course, the book and the movie and the picture of the woman swimming in the shark.

1:10:49 You know, the whole thing. Yeah, but I just never watched any of those movies. I just as a kid, I was really scared of everything like documentaries on Sasquatch would scare me and it's fake. Right. So I was really not into it. But I did watch those movies like Jaws and I watched Exorcist and all those 70s movies when I was an adult. They were scary. Well, they just scare me then. No, no, because those mess with my mind. There was so much hype. You know, I was so I was so scared as a kid of everything. So then like movie wise, everything I wasn't scared about doors, just movies. And then so when I finally I go like it's gonna be so terrifying. And then when I finally watched it as an adult, I'm like, oh, my God, the effects are so fake. This is not really happening. Yeah. Yeah. So I have to say Jaws is a big letdown.

1:11:44 Oh, I could say all the people having watched it. We talked about this in the episode because Chris Lowe and Grace Gohman, Lisa and Tansy we all saw it when it came out. And we saw it in 75. It looked like a really sharp. We knew nothing about it. But when you watch it years later, you're like, it looks like a fake shark. Yeah. Oh, I'm sure if I had seen it in 1975, I would. Yeah, it would had a totally different impact on me. Yes, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. It was kind of the only reason we mentioned is because like when most of it, we started like kind of in the 80s. It was you kind of just described it your own career path.

1:12:24 Can you start with? It was kind of like the Wild West, like that throughout something like, hey, why don't you go work on ratfish or hey, why don't you go work on this shark or this ray? And it's like, okay, sure. Yeah, like you didn't think about it was like, sure. Okay. Because there's no, you know, it wasn't like this morning. I just did what you're told kind of things like, oh, that sounds interesting. Yeah, I just feel like literally throw almost every all the people I just mentioned and you're you fit right in their Domics just like somebody just throw out some idea and you're like, hey, that's kind of cool. And I think that's kind of you're in it right now, David, I think that's kind of missing a bit in some of the programs today where they don't give the students like enough, like, you know, like, hey, come up with your own idea for something.

1:13:05 You know, it's there's too much. It's too rigid. That's just my impression. What's your. Yeah, I think I think we're really lucky to be in a really special time. We started our careers where there was that kind of sense of opportunity. You weren't so worried about like, I have to make sure 10 years from now I can get a grant. So I have to plan everything like that. We just kind of said, let's do it and see what happens. And we were really lucky, I think. Yeah, I think you hit on something too. Like when you're talking about like when you're finishing your undergrad and somebody said, why don't you go to grad school? And you're like, okay. Yeah, I think if you talk to everyone, the people I just mentioned, Chris, Greg, Lisa, myself, none of us had like some grandiose, like I'm going to go do a PhD.

1:13:47 It was kind of like, well, I got a bachelor's degree now what? And then we all sort of there was no, you know, where's the young people today are like, got this plan like, okay, I need to do this. I need to do this. None of us thought like PhD and I was like, you know, my family gone to schools like grad school, what are you talking about? I know. I know. My mom used to send me tormenting cards my senior year, like, what are you gonna do open a biology store? You know. That's great. I love that. Yeah. Troll by your own mom. I was, I was. Yeah, that's awesome. That was just such a good, I was such a good, like you said, it was just, it was such a good thing.

1:14:27 It was such a good experience that time because it was just, it was such a wild West. It's hard to be nice to recapture that. I think for a lot of the young people today just have that freedom to like, Hey, I'm going to go do whatever. And they just go do it. They don't have, there's no constraints. There's no, I have to go. There's, there's, there's, there's no, there's no real, I mean, like I've talked about and you can, you can attest to this Dominique there. There was no field of conservation biology back then. It was just like, it wasn't even, it wasn't even a thing. It was just like, like, you know, you get something like why are you doing sharks or, you know, got met, not even a mentioned ratfish. You're even like fewer than, I mean, I remember the first time I saw your name pop up somewhere. I kind of remember where it was. I think you're about where you're going to New Zealand to do some work there. And I was kind of going like somebody else's work. I was just a student at Leonard. I go somebody else working on a ratfish. Who's working on a ratfish? And I saw you're like, Willie, I didn't know Willie would do anything with ratfish. And I saw you name kept popping up for a number of years there. And I go, Oh, I guess there is someone else working on these things.

1:15:34 Because at the time Leonard was Leonard was about the only guy that I knew that did anything with really with ratfish at the time Leonard Campagno. And so it was just such a, it was because it was just such a small group. So it was just kind of interested. You just, they, they just got you onto that and you just took off and just really did exceptionally well in the whole field. How did, so I'm sure we heard this story before and Ray was on, but how'd you happen to cross paths with Ray troll later on? You know, what happened was, you know, I knew about his art and he obviously had heard about me because he's so interested in drawing the, you know, the white spot ratfish and, and the, the other ratfishes and other fishes as well. And out of the blue, I got a package from him.

1:16:22 He really just, I don't know what inspired him, but he, he silkscreen, he printed a lab coat. And on the back, it was like ratfish charters. And it had this whole, you know, Rachel print on the back. And he just sent it to me out of the blue and just said, Hey, I people have told me I should get to know you. And I was just so thought that was just so cool. I still have a lab coat. I still wear it. It's really beat up, but it's cool. And, and he, and so I wrote him back, you know, that's how we made the connection. And so then we chatted and then whenever he was traveling around, he come visit me at the time I was working at the Academy of Natural Sciences in Philadelphia. And so, you know, this was so long ago, but anyway, he and I connected and then he was starting to work on museum exhibits. So I was able to connect him to our exhibit staff.

1:17:13 So then he made connections with the Academy of Natural Sciences. So that kind of brought him full circle in with where I was working. And we had a lot of opportunity to work together. And I just it just flourished from there. You know, we've periodically connected, talked, get together whenever, you know, I'm out West or if he's out East. So yeah, so. Yeah, he's definitely caring. He's definitely into it. He definitely got a good eye, that artist eye for for things. And we talked about this when he was on. But I want to hear your thing about the buzz tooth shark that turned out to be a chimera. Yes, yes. Yeah. Well, that was one of those situations where he was coming to visit me. I can't again remember why maybe a new exhibit was coming. I think he had an exhibit at the at the time. Now I was at Millersville.

1:17:59 And I think he had maybe had his exhibit up at the North Museum in Lancaster. And so he said, Oh, yeah, we got to get together. So came to my lab and we had some looking at some fish and just chatting. And he said to me, he had his computer out. He's like, you got to get interested in this. There's this whole group out there. And they've got all these fossils. And we got to look at these fossils. We got to figure out these buzz sharks. And so that's kind of where the ball got rolling. I said, well, I happen to have some money. And then we got the leaf tepania and his graduate student were able to get the fossil down. I guess Texas was where the imaging center that they did it at. And then they said, well, we don't know how to interpret this. So then I got connected with Elan Purdell in Paris and then we needed to get some biomechanics. So I connected him with Cheryl Wilga. I think she was URI. So anyway, we just built this whole team like and got the ball rolling on this big project. It was a lot of fun. It was very cool.

1:19:00 And what'd you think when you came out because everybody kept thinking this was some kind of a shark. Yeah. It turned out it was a ghost shark. What sold me on it was we were on a conference call and they were analyzing a lot of the imagery and said this lower jaw is so short. And I said, it's just like a chimera lower jaw. It's really short. And you know that the jaw joints move forward of the eye. It's very typical what you see in the whole of the civilians. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And anybody listening there, go check out the the the buzz is buzz tooth saw shark. Is it that was the formal name or uh uh well, Teleka Prien. It's the uh. Yeah, Buzz saw tooth shark. I think. Yeah, I just think of it as a prime. Yeah. I yeah. I do too. But I've but go check it out. Helico Prien buzz.

1:19:45 Look at the image of that and then just think this is this is a ghost shark. Yeah. Now, that'll that'll give you some nightmares. I'll tell you that with the and he does this to he does this too is over there. A lot of these crazy things. Yeah. That's why we're doing these crazy things that we think our sharks are actually chimeras. They're on the side of the tree and they go back like the chimeras that goes. They go back like over 400 million years. The earliest ancestors that correct. I think we've got it like 375 maybe a little more than 375. But yeah, we're right around that time, you know, just close. They go back quite. Dovoni and carboniferous basically. Mm hmm. What what what are the the modern ones that we see today and there's only 59 right now and what would they do? And it's not just the most interesting. Yeah. And and so when did this sort of modern ones sort of come about? How long ago did that? Oh, man.

1:20:36 You're stretching me now. Um I don't know myself. I see more modern. It was sort of like we're talking like end of um end of the Mesozoic into the the Cenozoic, you know, and so right at that time when we had like basically actually when they were most abundant was down in the carboniferous. All right. And then what we see sort of the transition to the more modern ones kind of Jurassic and then in that, you know, Mesozoic time period. And there's also just new research that shows that all that that what was around at that time probably due to a variety of environmental factors, evolution of other fauna's and shallow seas. They move deep to escape. You know, a lot of these huge predators that had moved, you know, the Mesozoic, they returned a lot of mammals return to the sea and reptiles returned to the sea and so on. So they moved down deep and so that's that was probably, you know, late Mesozoic and then the Cenozoic when they moved in the deep waters and then we're able to radiate, you know, without the huge predators that the predation and perhaps other environmental factors that they may have faced at the time. Yeah. So most of them kind of went into the deep sea now because of the whatever 59 species we we have coming out in our book. Uh most of them except for a few exceptions, the the calorincus, the plow and the c sharks, they pretty much the rest of them are all deep sea for the most part. So do you think they pretty much evolved into a

1:22:07 deep sea from more from more from more coastal species? That's a speculation and that that that may be very likely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's kind of because it seems like most people think like it involved from the deep sea to the shallow but in reality, most think the sharks and rays actually evolved from coastal species into the more the deep sea took up habitats where they had with it maybe less predation or something where they where they went. So yeah. Good questions for some grad students out there. If you're looking for a project to do. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Tons of great questions. Even just going from coastal down that deep. How did they take the pressure like the pressure must be immense at that point? Like, how did it not just like how did they not just implode as they went down? Well, if you think about all the contricthins, they lack a swim bladder. They all rely on the oily livers. So in a way you could use the term and say they're somewhat pre adapted to be able to move into deep waters.

1:23:01 Because they lack those airfield cavities and the reliance on a swim bladder. So it does give the the them the ability they're already essentially pre adapted to to go deeper and find that refuge. But they're like like, cardinalogenous skeleton wouldn't just implode as well with the pressure. Actually, it might give them a more of an advantage because it's far more flexible. You know, it doesn't face the same kind of stresses that bone faces. Actually, bone is far more important when you're in shallow. Or in fact, even terrestrial environments where you need bone because you need bone to be more weight bearing in the terrestrial environment and also needs to be able to repair itself, which is a key feature bone in the evolution of bone, particularly for the terrestrial ones animals. But if you're a marine animal and effectively look at marine, well, the fish, if we think about fish, their bones are very slender and thin and mostly a cellular.

1:23:57 Yeah, so so so with so it's interesting today because you notice I see particularly one of the I guess more positive things with social media, you see people getting a little more interested in go sharks now versus before. And that's if there's one positive, maybe I don't know if a social media had anything to do with it. But I definitely see more people. It literally was like a cult because it was basically you, me and a couple of our students for a while was pretty much pretty much it. We got I think that our one big recruit is Jenny Camper, who is a former student of mine who did a few who's done several with both you and I. Now she's like completely like the princess of go sharks now with all the species she's done and good. Good. Good.

1:24:42 She's co-author co-author with us. But that's kind of it is kind of interesting. Do you what you're sort of feeling how why people may be getting more interest in the go sharks? I I do think social media has played a big role. You know, I mean people just scroll through they suddenly see a picture that they get interested to hear the word go shark and I like what the heck I gotta see what that is, you know, and so that has been one of the great things because you know within minutes you can get a lot of information out there and pictures and little stories. I mean, Dave, what you're doing with your little Instagram, you know, new pictures all the time and people see that they're just like, wow, that's a cool thing. You know, you're really getting people inspired to see and want to know more of them. You see that I know when I see someone Instagram. I'm like, I gotta learn more. I'll go Google it or I'll go look up a paper. I'll I'll find more information.

1:25:36 Yeah, I found I've told this story before, but I found when I started using go shark versus ratfish or chimera, it just exploded on social versus. Yeah, it just when you say go if I give a talk to you probably see this too. If I give a talk to a general audience and I say go shark, everybody lights up. If I say ratfish or if I say ratfish or chimera, it's just blank stares. Yeah, yeah. Thursday, Friday Oregon came out was on the cover of science and had to do with shark liver oil fisheries globally.

1:26:29 This was on the cover of science. The day before that came out, I had a new species of go shark described from one specimen in the Adam and sea. That thing exploded on social media, whereas the science thing, almost nothing. Got no traction at all, even though my university was pushing it, everybody's going like, wow, you can science magazine cover. Very little. I got traction on that for like the next six months. And then in six months, the next thing happened was you and I had a paper come out with Brit and Jamie on a new long nose spook fish that took off and went like wildfire. So like those two things last year out shine publicly, a paper on like say science, which outside a small community, nobody reads.

1:27:16 Yeah, but it's the premier journal in science. You know, it is. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's definitely a feat as a scientist. I think you're just looking at audience and who's listening to what and who's watching what. And obviously like, I think just the way, I think you're right, Dominic. I think the way people are consuming, you know, just everything that's happening in, just in the, like online. And you see like this really interesting looking animal. Some people may think it's ugly. Some people think it's really cool. You're starting to see a lot of deep, especially deep sea things. People are really curious into the deep sea. So any animal that comes up that's alien looking or that's, you know, not like what you would normally expect.

1:28:02 People are just like, Oh my gosh, like what is this? I need to find out everything about it. And I think that's really nice because it opens up that access to, to everybody who has social media to look at this and find out more. I think it's really great. Yeah. So I got to deviate for a minute here and have you tell us a little bit about your, your wool, your wool business. Yeah. How did that all start? Well, you know, I don't, I'm not just all about ghost sharks. I have another life too. I do a lot of other things. But yeah, well, I live in beautiful Lancaster County. I put in a plug for Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. It's beautiful. I never thought I would end up here, but I love it.

1:28:43 I shouldn't say that too much though. Then everybody will want to live here. No, don't live here. Don't move here. So I'm very fortunate to my husband and I have some land and in Lancaster County, we really value our farmland. We have a lot of programs to preserve farmland. And when we saw that the farmer who we're very good friends with, who farms right next to us was selling his land, we, we talked to him and said, we don't want you to sell that land. So we bought it from him. And so now we're stuck with 12 acres. What the heck do you do with 12 acres? Because we're not farmers. So we did a little research and I was really, I mean, a big kick to like, keep the land more natural. I don't want to see all these pesticides. I don't want to see a lot of herbicides and things on the land.

1:29:28 So I looked up, I was thinking about grain growing some like native wheat, but that's really hard to harvest and process. So we landed on sheep. We landed on sheep because sheep don't, they have small hooves and they don't. So they don't. And then when they bite, they just, they don't have teeth on both their jaws. So they just kind of tear the grass, you know. And so they don't ruin the fields. The fields stay very, very nice. And they walk around and they poop and they fertilize it. And then all this beautiful hay and grass grows and we harvest that and we feed that to them and stuff. So they're really cute. And then we shear them, but they're merino. So they're not, they're a wool sheep. I've learned a lot about sheep. You have wool sheep, you have multi-purpose sheep.

1:30:09 And so I take care of them and we harvest the wool. We have a really small flock. So we harvest the wool and we sell primarily to hand spinners who are looking for merino fleeces. So, you know, specialty wool for people who want a really nice fleece. And so, so that's, that's what I do in my spare time. So how is it? So how did being a biologist, you know, studying ghost sharks help you with understanding how to raise sheep and how to take care of sheep? That's really a good question. You know, I think someone who gets into biology and I think when I got into biology, that was when I was first getting my PhD, that was one of the things I realized.

1:30:51 It's like I've now achieved this, the ultimate degree, the ultimate recognition as a biologist. And it and I said that opens doors. Now, I could decide I wanted to study plants. I have the credentials to do anything in biology. And I think when you approach it that way and say, I'm not just a ghost shark scientist that you can you open your world to all sorts of things in biology like and anything in biology that I'm curious about. I'm interested in. And I now have the skills to go and learn about and do that. I mean, I also serve on the board of a local organic farm. And so what did I know about organic farming? But now I'm talking about harvesting and seeds and all kinds of stuff, you know, and it's an organic farm that serves the intellectually and development.

1:31:51 And you might not be able to grow up with them all through their soils or other types of And so you learn some of the things you need to l You start by learning the horrible part and with a place like squares as your whole side right here, how it helps cur Vehicle's So what do you think about that? Oh my gosh, Dave, I'm so excited. I mean, I have to tell you, I know you knew this, but we talked, but I always had it on my bucket list. That was like, to me, the penultimate moment in my career is gonna write this book. And I had drafted it, like in 2005, you know, I had drafts of, you know, books and papers I was gonna write. And a lot of things change in life. I never really got down to pouring myself into it. So when you, you know, I don't know, I've got this idea and you want to jump on board?

1:32:37 I was like, Oh my gosh, yes. So, so yeah, I think it's great. And I'm just so honored to be working with like the four of us, like the experts on Go Sharks. You, me, Jenny and Britt. We bring so much to the table because all of us have found our careers in slightly different areas. So I just feel like this is, you know, I mean, we're gonna, it book is advertised as well. It is the first book. But it is the first book. And I think we're gonna have to get to the table. And I think we're gonna have to get to the table. The book is advertised as well. It is the first book on Go Sharks and it's going to be the most comprehensive and complete book on Go Sharks. But that is, it is really true because we've got everything.

1:33:29 And I think it's true because we've got a lot of people who are doing the illustrations and Mark's, if you've seen any of his work, he's super detailed. And he really gets in there and just puts in an enormous amount of work in that. And I always tell people, if you're gonna do this kind of book, you got to have an illustrator like of Mark's caliber to do that. That's really gonna, we can write the best stuff, but everybody's gonna look at all the pictures. Well, I guess I gotta say true. Many people will just buy this book to look at the cool pictures. Yeah, I hope they read it too. But you're right. I mean, this is a book to have just as just to see the beautiful artwork because it brings them to life. So who do you think, who do you want, who do you want to actually read this book, look at the book, consume it and treat it like Go Shark Bible as it is?

1:34:10 Everybody. No, my husband was asking me about this. He's a biologist too, but he does something totally different. He's a biochemist. I think prime, first and foremost, it will be a lot of, there will be some scientists, you know, that are interested. But I think a lot of enthusiasts like there's a huge crowd of people that love like Shark Week. This is really appealing to the people who love Shark Week, who just are fascinated with these creatures. And I think people who just are interested in natural history, you know, the kind of people who go and say, I want to get this plant book. Look at these pictures or I want to get this mushroom book because I think mushrooms are cool. It's going to be so I think this I think it had it can appeal to a broad, broad audience.

1:34:55 There's a lot of people out there who just have from a very deep interest to superficial interest, but people are interested in science. Yeah, I mean, yeah. And really in the last over the last, say, almost almost 125 years now, really your 1995 monograph on on the chimeroid fishes was really the seminal work in this thing. But unless you're into it like myself or Britt or Jenny, the average person is not going to read it. But that's if you're but if you're a young student out there looking to learn about go sharks, Dominique Didier's 1995 publication, you can DM her and she'll send you a link to it. That is that that is really the the seminal work in this group.

1:35:36 But this book, I think, because we've got all the illustrations in there. I mean, I'm hoping we're going to inspire younger people, particularly to kind of take up the mantle to want to like find out more about go sharks kind of push the envelope. And, you know, I'll say I'm proud of my PhD thesis. And, you know, it's it's it is the work other scientists will refer to. But it isn't something you want to sit down and read if you're just a lay person or you're just interested. So I really think we've done a great job of distilling all this very technical stuff into something that people can read, relate to. And see the pictures and understand it. Right. And we tried to. And we did. Right. We did try to. We we wrote this with the intention for the average lay person.

1:36:18 So it's not we get the points across, but it's written. So the average person, you don't have to be a technical person. You don't have to be a scientist. There's not a lot of jargon used. Right. We do like everyday language. Yeah. If there's some word we use, we explain what it means. Yeah. And then we try to and we try to keep it that way. The whole it was it's it's it's a it's a type of book we want the average person to pick up. Just somebody who might has an interest in these things. They may not go into marine biology or fishes, but they might have a curiosity or an interest in them. And so that's what we're really hoping to do to do with the book. When we learn about these animals, we learn about what they look like, their features and what makes them so special. A lot of people are wondering, like, you know, I know we don't know a ton of information on their ecology or their conservation status, but, you know, some people are probably wondering, like, they live in the deep.

1:37:08 How do we know they're doing well? How do we like each species that's in the book? How do we know they're not doing well? You know, there's a there's a lot of stuff going on with, you know, just looking at deep sea in general with deep sea mining and things like that. When when people look at these animals, they start to fall in love with these animals. What do you say to people who want to make sure that they're protecting them? How can they go about making sure that these animals are protected in the deep sea? Well, I think they need to treat it just like all other animals in all other environments in the deep sea. You brought up some good things like we hear about deep sea mining and drilling and even the noise pollution and other things.

1:37:49 I think just awareness, awareness that all of these human activities need to be conducted with the utmost of care and thoughtfulness and regulation so that we do protect them, not just the ghost sharks, but the things that go to eat and the things that eat go sharks. And those ecosystems are very, very fragile. And I don't think we completely understand how fragile they are, which is somewhat problematic, you know, often go in and like, yeah, we can just go in and do this. So it is a constant balancing act. It's a constant balancing act. On the one hand, like I always say, I did have done some consulting and involved in oil pipeline that ended up not being built, but doesn't matter.

1:38:35 And people say, well, how you know, you're a conservationist, you love the ocean. How can you do that? I said, if I can do something to make this, I like to drive my car. I've just submitted. I like my car. I need gas for my car. This wasn't that kind of gas doesn't matter like heat. But if I can make it done in a better way, that I'm, I'm doing something, you know, instead of if I can have a little bit of a say, and I did, I had to say I made them do more intensive environmental inspections than would be required because I stood up and said, Yeah, to look at this. So, you know, that's the best we can do. We have to stand up and make those little, little bitty decisions. We're not going to change everything.

1:39:15 Yeah, for sure. Now you were able to carve out a niche area with with go sharks. We talked about the last episode. We talked a little bit this episode that what what got you interested in it and so forth, even though, you know, wasn't your first it wasn't love at first sight, let's just say, but you got to know like the curious things. There are a lot of long young scientists who are listening to this, whether they're shark scientists or, you know, marine biologists or people who do biology on the on land and wildlife biology. What would you recommend? Would you recommend like looking at a specific animal and really niching down? Like I know Dave is a big proponent of it, but since you you went through it, like right at the beginning, I know you've studied other animals since, but like, would you recommend that as a good career move is to find something that hasn't really been studied, whether it's an animal, an area that you can get access to and then go study it?

1:40:13 Is that a benefit in this career? I'd say I'd say there is some benefit to being like the only one or being the first one to do something. And so yeah, I would say I would encourage people, you know, find something that you're passionate about. And if it is a specific animal, if it's a specific ecosystem, if it's a specific plant, if it's, you know, kind of genetic process, I don't know, but find what you're passionate about and do it. And yes, if you, if you're passionate about it, you know, you're passionate about it. And yes, if you because you're going to make that niche, if you're the one that wants to do it, and you're thinking creatively about that, that's, and because you're passionate, you will make it happen for yourself, you'll find the right, you'll find the opportunities.

1:40:56 And that's my other advice is really walk through every open door, every opportunity. And that is one thing I can say when people say, oh, you've had this amazing career, you've done all these things and blah, blah, blah. It's because I always took every opportunity that came my way. I jumped at it. And I think Dave, I think you would say the same thing. You just took every opportunity. Someone said, hey, I have a chance for you to go on a boat and fish for this and go on a survey. Oh, sign me up. Yeah, we have a chance for you to do this meeting or write this paper or do I just said, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna do it. Right. And I see too many young people today. And I'm gonna just lay this I see, especially men and women, but they're like, I don't want to leave my boyfriend in a You know, take every opportunity that all the other opportunities will always be there. Take every opportunity and go because your life will go into directions you've never expected and you look back and I sure look back at my age now and go, Wow, what a ride and I'm still on that.

1:42:03 Exactly, exactly. Yeah, you just hit it and I come back to we talked earlier in this episode and I tell people go listen to this Jaws episode we did a few months ago with Lise and Atencen, Greg Scholman, Chris Lowe, and then now Dommie. Every one of us from that era was just like, hey, what the hell, go for it. Yeah. There's nothing, there's no, the rains are off man, just go do it. And I think that if you do that, you'll find your niche out there, you'll find your passion. And I mean, that's just awesome advice, Dominique. I just think that's really, that's really what I think a lot of the people, people, the young people particularly need to hear, just like fricking go for it.

1:42:43 Don't worry, don't obsess. I think it's like, don't obsess on like, you know, getting into this program or that program because none of us from that era had any grandiose plan, like, oh, I'm going to go get a PhD. And I'm going to, none of us did. I still know how I, well, I know how I got into my undergraduate. I don't know if you knew this, but I've told us a couple episodes, but I only got into like my university through, through wrestling, college wrestling. I got turned down academically. I got in on a wrestling scholarship. I got turned down. The coach just, I got a rejection. In fact, I got a rejection letter and the coach called me that night and asked her so on to come and said, well, yeah, I got a rejection letter. You let us throw that away. I'll send you the acceptance next week.

1:43:24 (all laughing) That's literally how I got into. Do whatever you can do to get in. Yeah, and take whatever opportunities, like you just said it, Dominique, whatever opportunity, guy, somebody hands you that opportunity, like hell go for it. What the hell? Well, I have to admit, I have to admit too, like when I went back for my master's, I didn't have the marks to get into the university for a master's. So my professors like, look, I want you to work for me as a Marine technician because that's what I just done before my previous job. And then you can do a makeup semester. And then you show them, you can do the work that you need to do to get the marks and then they'll let you in. So I did one semester, makeup semester while I worked as a technician. And I got to go all around Nova Scotia during that summer. And I got kick ass marks.

1:44:05 So I was getting in the 90s and they're like, yeah, you get in no problem now. And it was a bit of a pain to have to do another semester of undergraduate work. But if you want to get into something and you really want something, and I had this opportunity to do it, you go ahead and do it because you never know when you're gonna get those chances. Those chances don't always come in. And they may work out, they may not work out. And it may not be perfect, but it's definitely worthwhile checking them out, especially when you're young and you don't have a lot of experience under your belt. It's probably one of the best things that you can do. I think you just touched on it too, Andrew, is that it's kind of like a personal responsibility. If they give you that opportunity, it's up to you to make the most of it.

1:44:48 Yeah. It's not gonna be, if you didn't make it, that wasn't on anybody but you. But you had that chance. Exactly. And I think that's, I think particularly young people, you have to approach it that way. So nobody else, you don't make it, it's not anybody else's fault. It's up to you, the kind of, it's in your hands, to make it or break it. And so. It's just like the book that you got presented with, Dominique. You weren't sure how, when you were gonna write your book. Now you get to write this book on ghost sharks and you get to do it with some amazing people as well. And it's gonna be even better than if I had, what I had originally envisioned. So this is fantastic. Right. I just had one thing too. Again, we'll have an episode later and the book comes out.

1:45:50 And it's reallycreated me as a Yeah, I hope everybody enjoys the book when it comes out. Oh yeah, it's gonna be awesome. I can't wait to see it. Talking about it. So it's cool. Well, Dominique, I want to thank you very much for coming on today's episode. And we're gonna have to have you back sooner. We can't wait four more years to have you back on. Okay, definitely. You're invited when the book comes out, we'll be back on for that episode. Yeah, love to chat about the book. And hopefully, Britt and Jenny can join us too. Oh, that'd be awesome. Absolutely, absolutely. So what are the final things you want to say? Say to anybody? I just want to say, I just want to remind people, you know, international ghost shark date is coming up.

1:46:32 So make sure that you have got your celebrations planned and that you are ready to celebrate appropriately October 30th, international ghost shark day. Bring it on. Be sure. Yeah, bring it on post your favorite ghost shark on social media. And we'll have it. We'll have we'll have Dominique and eyes and Britt and Jenny's social media up there. Post your favorite ghost shark and tell us why you like it and tag and tag us. We'll reach out. Yeah, that'd be amazing. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Dominique. We really enjoyed having you on. I can't wait to have you back. Yeah, great. Thanks, you guys. It's been a blast. Thank you. Thank you, Dominique, for joining us on today's episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. Dave, are you going to buy a farm? I know you had an aquaculture place.

1:47:15 I've been a farmer. Yeah, I've been a farmer. Yeah, I've been a farmer and abalone farmer. So I've been down that road. I think I think my next thing I'm just I'm gonna become like a a a a a a a a full time documentary producer writer. There you go. It's very serious. Oh, yeah, we've been doing it. We've been doing it. We've been doing the series and and just a plug for that. If you haven't caught episode four of searching for lost sharks, extinct your life. Dominique's in that episode. Yeah, I really hope you check it out along with some of the other Jaws generation people. And I don't want to give it away, but definitely check out the episode because she is definitely one of the people featured in that episode. But yeah, I doing this book was just phenomenal with her.

1:47:57 And we worked with one of my former students, Jenny Kemper, who is also mentored by Dominique as well. And when Jenny came in there, she wouldn't even think in taxonomy. She was working on feeding ecology. And the next thing you know, she's becoming one of the rising stars in the field of Condrecian taxonomy. And so, yes, really awesome for me. It's just being an adviser and stuff. It's really cool to see that, of course, we got Britt Fanucci, another rising star in the field involved as well. She's one of the few other people really got into deep sea sharks, especially go sharks. So you literally got the dream team on this book. And we'll talk a little more about the book when it comes out next year.

1:48:38 But I just it was really great having her on the show and talking about her her little side hustle, as you said, with the sheep and farming and everything else. And I thought she shared some stories. I don't think she shared last time about how she got into graduate school and everything, which most of the people from my era, that seems to be the story. Interesting. You kind of blunder into it like, hey, go to grad school. Sure, I'll go. So, yes. And so I guess I emphasize that to the young people listening is that it's not a straight trajectory. So don't feel discouraged or disappointed if your career is kind of going. Doesn't seem like it's going in the right direction. Just keep your eye on the ball on where you want to be.

1:49:19 How you get there is that's all the fun part is a journey. It really is the fun part of the journey. I think Dominique said that as well as I guess just the journey. It's the fun part, you know, where you're going. Just keep your eye on the ball. Yeah, I mean, that's what it is, right? You got to be in love with biology, you know, whatever path you choose, whether sharks, fish, whatever it might be. Invertebrates, you got to be in love with biology. You got to get into it. You got to immerse yourself into it and then you'll find, you know, whatever comes out of it, you will find it and it'll it'll hit you and you'll just be like enthralled. And it just like Dominique is with, you know, with with go sharks and just like you are with finding law sharks, you know, it's it may not be a specific species or a specific type of species or it could be a habitat for all.

1:50:04 You know, as long as I could, as long as you are passionate every each and every day, you say, OK, what am I going to do today to advance the field or what can I do today to make a contribution? Even if it's little contributions here and there, you can do that each and every day and you feel good about yourself. And I think one of the thing, Andrew, and she really hit on this, I think was good is like take whatever opportunities are presented to you. Yeah. And make the most of them. Just, you know, when you're young, grasswind, you should be open to like learning everything you can. And yeah, opportunity comes up. I'm going to cruise for three months. Great. I'm off. Exactly. Or just whatever and learn any skills you can. But take advantage of opportunities because you never know what doors those opportunities are going to offer you.

1:50:45 Agreed. Agreed advice from her. Great advice. It was a great episode. It was fun to do it to get her on the podcast again. So, Dominique, thank you so much for coming on. We can't wait to have you back on shortly to talk about the book because that book will be released soon. We just don't have a date on it yet. We don't even have pre-sale date yet, right? We're waiting to hear back. So we'll wait. We'll get it soon. And we'll let you guys know once it's out there because I highly recommend I know the people who are listening to this. The audience here will want to get this book. I think it's going to be a great one. I can't wait to read it and take a look at those dando pictures because, yeah, and don't make some dandy pictures. Yes, he does.

1:51:26 We'll have to have Mark back on the show, too, as he's over to talk about it. Absolutely. Absolutely. It'll be a great episode. Dave, thank you so much again. And Dominique, we love having you on. Can't wait to have you back on. And everybody else who is listening to this, thank you so much for supporting us. If you have ideas on who you'd like on, just let us know. We'd be happy to find them and get them on and invite them on the show. Dave, if people want to get a hold of you, how would they do so? This lost shark guy and please go to my channel, lost shark guy and check out the series searching for lost sharks extinct or alive. Episode four is up now and please subscribe. It really helps out if you can subscribe to that and then on Instagram lost shark guy.

1:52:08 Absolutely. And of course, you can watch this. If you're listening to this, you can also watch this on YouTube if you go to our beyond Jaws podcast YouTube channel. And of course, you can listen to this on all your favorite podcast apps. So I want to thank you guys for joining us again today. This has been another episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast from Dave and I. We have we hope you have a great day, great rest of your day and we'll talk to you later and happy conservation.