Learning About Whale Sharks with Simon Pierce Marine Megafauna, Conservation & Discovery

1:00:00 We're back with another episode here on the Beyond Jaws podcast, and we have the executive director and founder of the Marine Megafauna Foundation. We have Simon Pierce, who's here today to talk about his work with whale sharks. Really interesting talk. It's going to be fun to talk about something that he thought originally was a boring kind of species and then discovered that we didn't really know that much about it. So even though it's on a lot of documentaries, you know, a lot of people have done some work on it. Simon has done a lot of pioneering work with getting to know, uh, we gained to know whale sharks as long with, along with MMF. We're going to talk about on today's episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast.

1:00:40 Let's start the show. Hey everybody. Welcome back to another exciting episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. I am your cohost, Andrew Lewin here with my cohost, Dr. David Ebert. David, are you ready to talk about whale sharks today? Absolutely. I'm really looking forward to this one. I'm having Simon Pierce on. He's been, he's always traveling somewhere, dive in some exotic, beautiful location. So it's really nice to actually be able to, to, to find a time. We can have a chat with them to talk everything about whale sharks. And, uh, I'm so I'm really looking forward to this show here. And, uh, we've got a whole bunch of questions I want to ask about whale sharks today. So I'm hoping to learn something as well. I can imagine. Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm excited too. I mean, this is a species that we don't really get to talk about. I don't think we've talked a lot about whale sharks on this podcast at all.

1:01:23 And it's obviously a species that is charismatic. It's, it's massive. Uh, it's got some cool spots on it and those spots come into, to come into play in terms of identification, but it's something that we just don't know a lot about these sharks. And Simon's here to give us the lowdown and to talk about the work that they do, uh, that Marine megafauna does all over the world, which is really fun to see. Uh, and, and yeah, they've got a lot of places that they, they, uh, manage. They have a lot of people, great people that help them manage, you know, from managing in different places and different countries. And I think it's just great to be able to see an organization work that way. Um, especially being able to cover so much ground or so much water, so to speak. So this is gonna be a fun interview. And here is the interview with Simon Pierce talking about Marine megaphone or whale sharks and Marine megafauna foundation. Enjoy the interview and we'll talk to you after.

1:02:13 Hey, Simon, welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast. Are you ready to talk about whale sharks and other megafauna? I would love to write that. Well, welcome everyone to another episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast where we really, or we have a man who really know it needs no introduction. We have the whale shark legend himself. Dr. Simon Pierce is joining us today. Simon is a co-founder of the Marine mega fauna foundation with Andrea Marshall, who had been on our podcast on in May of 2023, episode 46. The Marine megafauna foundation is a us nonprofit based organization that works globally to research and conserve endangered ocean wildlife. Simon's a world expert in whale sharks, having studied them for over two decades and has led the current global conservation assessment of whale sharks. He's a co-editor of the book whale sharks biology ecology and conservation and has published two other books and over 100 research publications in addition to numerous book chapters and conference papers. His specialist expertise is on photo identification, using photos and videos to identify and track individual animals. He's helped develop the shark book AI, a global photo identification platform that is now tracking over 22,000 individuals of 11 shark species.

1:03:29 Wowser. He has over 10,000 people contributing to the database. Like he could be literally elected president of a small country. Simon works with a number of regional collaborators and research teams all over the world, including Mozambique, Tanzania, Madagascar, Galapagos, Ecuador, Oban, and many other locations. And he's also an outstanding wildlife photographer, but today he's coming to us from his home country of New Zealand. His current position is the executive director of the Marine mega foundation and he, Simon's educational background, he did a bachelor's of science in ecology at the University of Wellington and honors at the University of Queensland in Brisbane, Australia and a PhD at the University of Queensland in Brisbane.

1:04:18 And Simon, welcome to the show, buddy. Thanks very much, Dave. And whale shark legend is going straight into my bio. So I think that's what we're here to do. As it should. So I'll start off and just ask you, like, how did you get into interest in the marine sciences, sharks and whale sharks? How did you get interested in that whole whole area? Yeah, thanks. This I always kind of feel like biologists, often the people that are completely unsuitable for anything else. And I definitely fit them all there. Like, so it's probably got a fairly similar background to to you two and a lot of other people in that, like just growing up really like unnaturally obsessed with wildlife and just really interested in what was going on. And I was kind of raised on especially some of the New Zealand's natural history films and books and things like that.

1:05:14 And I got really, really interested in endangered species research and kind of what we now know is conservation biology, basically like researchers and practitioners are working to bring back some of the most endangered species in the country from the edge of extinction. So I got kind of particularly interested in some of the I guess some of the stuff that was a little bit less loved. So things like reptiles and sharks and things like that that maybe didn't have such a good public relations campaign. And yeah, I got really drawn to marine biology just as a particular interest in that, that kind of feeling that we just had so much to learn and so much work to do in terms of the conservation. Like it was pretty obvious with these documentaries and things and books and stuff like they were they were almost all about people working on land of which there was plenty to do in New Zealand.

1:06:16 But there was very little about stuff in the water. And so I really decided to I wanted to learn more about marine biology and things and then learn to dive and realize the water in New Zealand is actually quite cold. So I thought if I was going to if I was going to pursue this as a as a career, like I should definitely like to make a better life choice than that. So I moved over to Brisbane in Australia and I was lucky enough to end up in a lab at the University of Queensland that was specializing in sharks and rays. So for my PhD, I ended up working mostly on stingrays and again, because there was just so little known about them.

1:06:59 And yeah, just like when I was trying to figure out what was going on, I mean, Brisbane is a city of around two million people, which is pretty big on this side of the world. And yet we were still uncovering these then undescribed species and things like immediate, like literally in the intertitling zone of the city. So it just sort of showed how little was known about that group. And I had a fabulous teammates in the lab, including Andrea Marshall that you mentioned on the intro. So her and I became really good friends and she was at the time trying to work out what her PhD was going to be on.

1:07:43 And she'd spent a lot of time in Africa working on white sharks and other things and that really fall in love with manta rays when she went up to visit Mozambique for a week. So since she did that, she was kind of trying to zero in on Mozambique and the manta rays and things. And she was hassling me a lot like, don't you want to come over and kind of check it out? And but you might notice when she's on the podcast, like Andrea is extremely dramatic. So like on the same token, she was like, it's amazing. And it's like, also, if I want hot water, I have to boil coconuts and things like that. That sounds kind of crappy. So, so, yeah, but but in the end, when she got an opportunity to move up to a lodge in Mozambique where they had hot water on tap, which was a real novelty, she was like, look, that they're really interested in supporting the manta rays, manta ray research, but they're really interested in whale sharks as well.

1:08:40 And we've been chatting about whale sharks quite a while at that point. So she was like, well, don't you want to come over? And I was like, well, actually, whale sharks sound really boring. Um, because it's really that this really big fish, you are on documentaries that iconic. We must know everything about whale sharks. And I was just into the weird stuff that no one cared about. And so, but like, you know, she's a friend and she's quite persistent. So to kind of humor her, I started looking into it and realized that actually we didn't know very much about whale sharks at all. So at that point, like back in the kind of mid 2000s, there was still active commercial fisheries for the species like targeting them.

1:09:21 Clearly, there was a lot going on in terms of conservation needs. And when I was trying to look at the papers and things, they just weren't any or there were very few like that was really when kind of what I call modern whale shark research was just beginning. So it was like, well, actually, the species is really under spread. Um, there's very little known about them. And I quickly realized that the documentaries had done on being done on the species were were like fairly speculative. It would be fairly fair to say. And with the benefit of hindsight and that's I was like, oh, OK, like this does sound kind of cool. So I went over to Mozambique for the first time and I'd never been in Africa before. So I thought I was going to get kind of like jumped by lions as I descended from the plane.

1:10:02 But yeah, as soon as like, I mean, Dave, you definitely know, like Africa really gets a hold on your soul pretty quickly. Yeah. And and I it was funny, though, because when I got up to Mozambique for the very first time and like there was all these people for the lodges and dive centers and that gathered to meet me. And just before I walked in, Andre had pulled me aside and was like, by the way, I've kind of sold you as like this whale shark expert. So and I've never seen one like, you know, I was just coming coming from Australia and New Zealand and stuff in there. And she was like, so when you do see one, like try and be cool. So thanks.

1:10:45 So, yeah, so like so that that was kind of how things kicked off over in Mozambique. And yeah, how that kind of winding journey to studying whale sharks. And of course, like as boring as they sounded to to me is like, as soon as you actually see them, they are amazing animals and like, yeah, they're really cool. I kind of think of them as are you familiar with the hymbos like the kind of like lovable but slightly dim, muscular kind of like genre of men. I think it was hymbos. Yeah. So that's really quite adorable. Let me ask you this. Were you did you act calm when you first saw the whale shark or did you like kind of jump for joy and act like you've never seen one before?

1:11:30 Well, actually, because I've been trying to figure out how to research the things and I kind of like that was kind of my introduction into photo identification when I realized how like trying to work out what we could do. And I was so focused on trying to get the ID shots that like I was just like, okay, like right side, left side, right? It's a male or a female and that kind of thing. And then like, got all that kind of like took my camera when I was out. Wow, it's yeah, pretty big. I love it. Now, is there a bit of a, well, when you back up before, if before you Andrea like hijacked you into the whale sharks, were you looking at other other like little known shark and race species like you got interested in looking at rays before we really got into that?

1:12:21 I mean, you look at the rays and some of that stuff when you're still in Australia. Yeah, so yeah, so my PhD was kind of like inshore elasma ranks, really. So I initially we were trying to look at habitat modification and the potential effects on on especially intertidal well, inshore sharks and rays, I should say, like, because there's a lot of in southeast Queensland, there's been a lot of coastal development of areas that used to be mangrove dominated. And like, we really didn't know what lived there. So yeah, that was, that was, I was just trying to figure out what lived there, really. So like, ended up towing same nets around a lot during the daytime and not catching very much. And then we realized that most of the species were nocturnal. So so nighttime, we caught a lot more. Yeah, so it's, it's actually quite sweet now, because every time I go past like, you know, you get that, like, mangrove stink of like a noxic mud, every time I go past that with the window open in the car, I'm just like, Oh, good times.

1:13:25 Don't bother you anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah. memories. Yeah. Did you ever did you so you hadn't seen a whale shark until he actually went to Mozambique and then it turned out there's quite an ag they tend to aggregate there's what you've found out some of the Yeah, well, the reason why this lodge was really interested in them is because they've been having kind of a bear out on the deck and notices all of these things sticking out in the water. And that just happened to be there one day when there was one of these kind of aggregations of whale sharks when a whole bunch of them come together to feed at the same same time, same place on the same thing. So yeah, but yeah, that was like, I had not seen one before I went over to Africa for that first time. But yeah, it was a totally new kind of thing for me. I mean, I've been working on mostly quite small rays and sharks, like up to kind of wobby gong sharks was kind of the biggest thing I really worked with.

1:14:20 Yeah, and really, really up until you started doing it, there really was not a lot of correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think anybody was really doing much in whale sharks up until you kind of started to poke around in them and then since then other people have gotten into them in different areas. I know like this say shells and in in South America and different places, but there really was not. I can think of a couple people, but not much done on a whale sharks before you kind of started getting into them. Correct. Yeah, there was I mean, I'm, you know, I was really lucky to be able to kind of build on what there was a it was a medical doctor, Jeff Taylor, that had kind of uncovered the the aggregation that was going on off a minglery reef in Western Australia.

1:15:05 And then John Stevens, that was really pioneering shark research in Australia and and his master's student, Brad Norman, had done some stuff with the tourism industry in Western Australia back in the 1990s. So there was I was really lucky to be able to learn from from people like them in terms of the papers that done and things, but there wasn't too much at that point. And David Roa that was working the say shells had had started I think also during the 90s and he was able to give me some really good advice on getting started. But but yeah, it was kind of the the fairly early days of whale shark research. So it was basically a feeling of trying to work it out together.

1:15:50 Well, so interesting, too, because you mentioned at the beginning, like, oh, they're so boring, you always see them in like documentaries, you always see them, you know, around, you see people taking pictures and stuff. And then all of a sudden, you realize, well, actually hasn't been as much science as you expected, I assume, right? Is that would that be a correct assessment? Yeah, definitely. And I was like, because I was trying to, I was trying to, before I went to Mozambique, I was trying to work out like, how do I even research them? And it was really funny, because, yeah, no, that's a good question. Like, because Dave, you know, you know, Mike Bennett, that was my and Andrea's PhD supervisor. And he's like, specialist in biomechanics and biology and things and was not really that used to working on live animals.

1:16:31 So I went in and I was chatting to him about the whale sharks. And he was kind of like, wait, you're gonna have to kill a few. I was like, what? And he's going, well, how else are you going to research them? And like, there really wasn't that much kind of like, your work going on in sharks at the at the time, like, it was pretty, pretty early days in that respect. And, and I was kind of like, well, I'll see if I could work out how I can do that. And see if I could work out how to avoid that, because that doesn't really sound like something I want to be doing. So I actually went pretty deep into the marine mammal literature, because obviously they had a lot of experience trying to work on large live animals that I thought we could learn from.

1:17:15 So yeah, a lot of my early reading was was really looking into the work that had been done on whales and things. Yeah, because yeah, because that was trying to figure out how to work with an animal so big. I mean, I knew I knew this different places they would they would get get whale sharks period, Taiwan's another spot where they do get they do. I think that's been bad. It's been bad now for a while with the whale sharks there, but they used to have a I mean, I know when I was there in 88, my first trip there in 88, there was there fishing whale sharks. And then in 96, that first record of the fecundity of like over 300 baby whale sharks. The guy who reported that juan was a good friend of mine. I knew we're both grad students at the same time in Taiwan. And yeah, they used to get I knew they I was the one thing I used to get them there.

1:18:01 But but yeah, you're talking like a massive animal that I don't think I've never seen one diving, by the way, actually. So it's kind of like I yeah, I mean, I got a that's one of those that's on my bucket list to see some time, even though I'm it's the more high profile I have to I can't even imagine it's like being in the water with one of those things so big trying to keep up with them. Well, from what I've heard, it's normally people go snorkeling because it's almost like you get in the water, you see them go by, but they're faster than you think. And then so a lot of people will get out of the water, they'll boat with the whale sharks, then you plop in the water again as you intercept their path. Is that how it's a friend of mine told me that's how it was done, like in Cancun area or in Mexico area. Is that how it's normally done? So when you guys study, you have to get in the water with them.

1:18:48 Yeah, pretty much so yeah, we try and spend as much time in the water as possible because it's like super fun and of course really important for work. The points of the work right? Down off Cancun they are so they're feeding on tuna spawn at the surface. So these basically it's almost like mowing a lawn like that just kind of like nom nom nom nom nom. I kind of think of them as ocean labradors like that very highly food motivated species. Okay. And when you've got all this like extremely calorie dense tuna tuna eggs, they're sitting on the surface here, they will just be like just charging through trying to get as much as they can. And it's like, there were some back of the envelope calculations done on how much they actually eating there. And I think it's calorie wise, it's about the equivalent of like eight kilos, whatever that is in in pounds like 15, 16, 17 pounds, something of of of chocolate each day.

1:19:46 So for a kind of a cold blooded species like an ectotherm that's a there's a huge amount of calories. So yeah, it's really interesting. Like, so our paradigm has kind of been that like a lot of the work is like that where we're looking for them when they're feeding on the surface in these locations where there's lots of food. But what we've sort of seen is that the sharks are traveling thousands of miles sometimes to go to these places where they know there is lots of food because like the kind of tropics, you know, the reason why the water is so blue and clear is because there's almost no life in it. So for a large ancient feeder, they really have to target these kind of bursts of food. So yeah, and they'll they'll really travel to get there.

1:20:31 Yeah, and they know where to go to they seem to show up the same spot when they go to one of these locations where the food is going to be there. Is that pretty much? Yeah, I was actually pretty amazed because we were doing some work in of Honduras and utilla. And I was looking at the end, we can get into the photo identification. But like, I was looking at the individual sightings of different sharks. And at the time, there was still a lot of sharks that were turning up and believes to feed on a specific snapper spawning aggregation on this reef. And the snappers would only spawn for I think it was like two or three nights like around full moon for about three months a year.

1:21:11 So it's only a real specific time of year, Pacific moon phase and only that couple of days. And one of the sharks had been spotted in off utilla and Honduras. And then the next night, it was at that reef feeding on the on the snapper spawn. And it's just like, well, that thing knew exactly where it was going. And like, nailing the timing and all that kind of thing. So yeah, even though the hand bows that very good at what they do. Yeah, let me ask you this. You know, we talked a little bit about when you first started studying the sharks, you're trying to figure out what to study now, given your background in like the physiology aspect and you and when you get to a new species and Dave, you've kind of been through this before a number of times.

1:21:55 What is it that's the most important thing to study? Is it like with a large animal, you'd almost think of where they go, when they're there, and then how it's affected, how they're affected by humans, right? To look at the immediate protection, and then maybe go into how they eat, how like all their physiology and things like that. And that's how I see it. But I'm an ecologist by background. So that's how I see it first is distribution, figure out where they go, how do we protect them? At what point in time do we protect them? What governments we have to work with? But like, you come from a physiology background. So you're looking at which way did you decide to go when you first started? That is exactly how I approach it. In fact, like I'm not like the kind of biological and ecological questions are a bit secondary. And we try and we try and address those as we go. For sure. But but like, yeah, it's really that, like, how many are there? What are they doing there? Like, is that kind of a feeding area? Is it which is usually pretty obvious? Is it a like a reproductive area, which which might kind of like increase the priority of conservation?

1:23:00 And then over time, is that population going up or down? And then things like the yeah, so it's kind of like how many sharks using the area over time? Is that population going up or down? What are the main threats to there? And we can it's nice with whale sharks that kind of couples in with that taking photos of them to be able to identify individuals that we can also see things like scars on the body. So if there's a lot of them are being affected by, like, for instance, like fishing gear entanglement or or ship strikes, even though those are like quite cryptic threats that are very difficult to monitor, we will see evidence of it on the sharks.

1:23:42 So that's the kind of thing we can look for. And then exactly as you say, it's like, okay, like, does this are they direct threats to this area? Who do we need to work with in government? Like, how do we fund protection? Which is often or how can we like bring the community on board with protection? So we end up working a lot to help develop kind of like ecotourism industries and stuff like that and help like support local livelihoods. And and then yeah, where are they going? And like, where to next? Like, where else do we have to protect to be able to support this population? Was there ever much of a of a fishery in in in I'm more familiar with East Africa than West Africa, but was there ever did the local villagers ever target him much? Or is it just?

1:24:27 No, not much. Not much. It was something we were there was there's been some pretty large gill nets and use. So there was some accidental catch. But there's like the the they didn't regard the. They didn't regard the whale sharks particularly tasty and big and like you don't want one in there like that. That just is like a swim off with your name or kind of like power through it. So there was there was no targeting. And the occasional like like yours through a lot of the distribution like that pretty susceptible to to gill nets and things. So yeah, some of them some of them were getting taken.

1:25:09 But a fairly small number. There was no targeted fisheries and kind of the Western Indian Ocean really with the exception. There was probably a few getting targeted off Oman, but but not in the kind of the industrial quantities, for instance, that you saw in Taiwan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, they wouldn't know people know this out there. I'm sure you know this. But in Taiwan, whale sharks are called tofu sharks. And if you and there is a reason they're called tofu sharks is because if you ever see the meat on them, it looks just like tofu and the texture textures like tofu at all. Yeah. And and so like I said, I there was a funny story. I don't know if you were ever have you been to Taiwan at all, Simon?

1:25:56 I mean, only for that, like fish conference back in 2005. I haven't spent much time there. That's the one I was going to ask you about because if you remember, they were serving. They're serving tofu shark at the main banquet dinner at the end of the thing. And a lot of and I knew what it was and you probably knew what it was. But a lot of people there, the sharky people had no idea what the tofu shark was. And there's a few individual conservation people that I won't mention any names that started having the tofu soup and only realized afterward that they're eating whale shark. And it was rather horrific experience for them. Admittedly, I kind of like smiled and chuckled a little bit. It was kind of probably being a bit mean, but yeah, when cultures collide. Yeah, yeah.

1:26:45 Yeah, it was it was actually that was the year that I started working on whale sharks. But before before before I had started working on whale sharks. So yeah, I was a yeah, pretty, pretty new to it all back there. I do remember that. That was there. There was also some shark fin soup, which was like a bit of an oops. Yeah. But but it's like I think I'm sure most people realize it was what they were trying to do was kind of appreciate the honored guests. Right. But it was just like, yeah, kind of probably should have got the memo about what the conference was actually about. Yeah, I don't think yeah, there was an intentional they were trying to. Yeah, sure. Trying to press people that were there. So it wasn't but it was kind of it was definitely a one of those oops moments or say, I live there. So I'd had that before. So it wasn't like a I kind of have the winning Rome, you know, do is the Roman to do and just try and I actually honestly, I kind of wanted to try it.

1:27:41 I tried it before, but just to see what it was like, what was the big fuss about like trying it literally is like tofu. If you didn't know it was whale shark, you would just assume you're eating tofu. Yeah, yeah. I can see that. So anyway, I just wanted to I forgot you're I forgot you're at that. Yeah, yeah, that was my first probably my first international conference back in the day. Yeah, that's cool. It was my way one of my one of my abiding memories from that conference, though, was like, because, you know, there was a diverse range of seafood on offer. And we had kind of like the mystery meals of the times and one of them, I got served jellyfish. And like my my big kind of realization from what that was like, just because you can eat something doesn't mean you should because it really did taste like plastic bag.

1:28:26 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I've had I spent enough time in China, Taiwan. I yeah, there's a lot of stuff they serve there that you just would gag and choke if you knew what it was. Yeah, yeah. But the fishing down the food chain kind of thing. But yeah, it's like bringing up Taiwan. So yeah, that that kind of tofu shark fishery. I mean, at the time, that was one of the most expensive shark products that was available in the world. And in the demand for shark from Taiwan was really what led to the fisheries developing in Philippines and India as well, which were two of the other kind of large scale commercial commercial fisheries that developed the same. So, yeah, there was really that that meat fishery that that really drove a lot of the commercial trade and whale sharks for that period. Yeah. And I assume I assume the well, I mean, I've seen the fins that market there, but I well, this is getting this is 20 years ago now, but well, do you ever come across whale shark fins very much in some of your travels? Just out of curiosity and some of the other places you've been?

1:29:36 There's just not really no, there was one for sale for ages in the Dubai markets that they they couldn't get rid of in the end. And big right for soup? Well, they use them as like almost like a display piece. You know, it's like, I might have just been a New Zealand thing. But like back when we had like fishmongers like actual fish shops, they were like, I'm not sure what they were doing. But I think that's a good thing. For soup? Well, they use them as like almost like a display piece. You know, it's like, I might have just been a New Zealand thing. But like back when we had like fishmongers like actual fish shops, it was often like you'd have all the like fillets of different edible species. And then like one weird thing kind of is like a one weird fish that they've got his bycatch. That was kind of like a conversation piece almost. So I think whale shark fins were kind of used in that that way. Quite often as a bit of a conversation piece inside the restaurants or else is almost like a billboard in the shop window to say that you can you can buy shark fin here. Okay. Okay. That's it. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of unusual to see the really big fish.

1:30:32 I mean, I've seen big fins like a whale shark or basking shark. I've seen them. But I just it was some of these fin shops in Asia. But it's I just I had no idea like how you cook something that that big. Cook it up and stuff. So that's kind of interesting to know about. So is is finning a problem with whale sharks? Or is it more just their meat itself? And then the fins just kind of come off when they get the meat. The fin fishery does go back a really long way. Like I found a reference from 1907 that was referring to India exporting whale shark fins to China back in the 1800s. So it certainly goes back a long way. But it was not it was not a significant fishery and that like people were not targeting whale sharks or their fins.

1:31:20 And I think that was there was quite a few places where there was kind of like small scale fisheries to use the the liver oil for waterproofing boats and things before before kind of like synthetic products and that became available. So that was and again, I don't think there would have been much targeting going on on that. But like certainly if there was opportunistic bycatch, then they could fin it. They'd use the liver oil and things. I think I think I guess you may know, but I guess like you go back 100 150 years ago, they're probably still catching a lot of stuff in like, you know, off Taiwan, China and those areas are catching enough sharks in those waters there that they didn't really have to go as far as much to get stuff and shipping and stuff was a lot probably a little more primitive than it is now.

1:32:05 As far as, you know, back in the 1800s, trying to get shark fins shipped from Africa to China. When it go back away and I know I do know, like Leonard Capaño grew up in San Francisco right next to Chinatown. He told me his little boy in the 40s and 50s. It was pretty common to see all the all the Chinese markets. They're all had shark fins hanging in them at the time. So the fin the whole fin industry goes back and I don't know if anybody's really delved into the cultural history of it. It'd be that'd be kind of fascinating but it goes it goes back like easily to the 1800s or if not more on the whole from the finning standpoint but anyway, yeah, it's kind of just kind of fascinating to hear someone talk about it.

1:32:50 Give a history of what the whole about the cultural background cuz I'm sure it goes back quite a ways as you said, like, you know, he's easily the 1800s if not before that. Yeah, on things so anyway, a little more cheery note. Besides all the blood and guts with the whale sharks. I got I got now you get you do get occasionally coming back to your home country, New Zealand, you do get whale sharks up in the north northern part of the North Island occasionally. Yeah, so there's been so they tend to like water temperatures above about 21 degrees centigrade Celsius. So it's like anything within that rat within that ranges is pretty good for whale sharks.

1:33:31 So we do the the southern most sightings we've had is kind of like midway down the North Island of New Zealand. But yeah, there's now that especially that there's more people like out game fishing and things that are often the people that tend to see whale sharks and of course more people have got like cameras and another like phones and stuff. Sorry, and other cameras to be able to record their sightings. So yeah, there's I would I would guess there's probably about five to 10 sightings minimum most summers now. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, they are round would be fascinating to know where they're coming from. But probably just the ocean.

1:34:13 Yeah, no, you know, it's here. Here's a question. You're the perfect guide. Ask this question to have had this because I really don't have no anybody here in California to ask it. I did a I did a paper my one whale shark paper back in 2004, which occurrence of whale sharks off California. And it turned out like, up prior to this paper, there'd only been one record of a whale shark off La Jolla in southern California near San Diego back in the 1950s. And I got ahold of some notes from a guy named Bill Ripley is long deceased now, but he was a long time fishing game biologist and he had records of whale sharks going back to the 1920s.

1:34:56 And he's the only guy I know that documented whale sharks and basking sharks co mingling and Monterey Bay. And the interesting thing and anyway, I did I published this paper and all these all these notes he had. He was a co author, of course. But what was interesting is a couple things. One is after I published it, suddenly all these people came out of the woodworks fishermen and biologists who study whales and said, oh, we see whale sharks all the time. Oh, wow. And I probably picked up another 10 or 12 confirmed observations. Some go up and I'm going to say, well, I'm going to do this.

1:35:43 And, but they, uh, you know, it's really amazing to watch them at first. So they looked at a sapira and theirrollment, and I started a lot of skate ball art to support whales become aonse downloadable expression. Er, basically, of those things, they say, Oh yeah, I'm going to be a "GIGING TO whistling your the years they would typically see have sometimes multiple sightings of these whale sharks were in La Nina years which are our cold water years compared to El Nino which are the warm water and there was a and they tended to show up they tend to show up when the albacore tuna are offshore. Okay. And you probably know this I can't remember the author's name it was a Japanese paper from like 1969 1970 of whale sharks off northern Japan I want to say Hokkaido and in a connection with the tuna species over there and I'm not sure if it's with the camera the species but can you fill in some blanks for me there because I'm I've been fascinated to find out.

1:36:33 Yeah that's super interesting. Yeah whale sharks are very closely associated with tuna I think that's the yeah so like around a lot of the places where we work that are not your kind of conventional like we were talking about that area of Cancun earlier where the whale sharks are feeding up on on tuna spawn in that case on the surface but a lot of the places we work that's it's whale sharks coming through with schools of tuna and are targeting like bait fish on the surface and I think they're it's sometimes it's it's funny sometimes because sometimes you'll be in the water and you'll see a school of tuna come through and then a whale shark following a long hard behind it sometimes you'll see a whale shark and all the tuna like swimming along hard behind it and they really seem to to team up and like my kind of observations in the water is that whale sharks are too slow to successfully prey on bait fish a lot of the time but there's with the tuna helping like they will cut off often the whale shark will almost go stationary in the water the the bait fish will cluster around the whale shark the tuna are able to kind of ball them up and start getting into them and then the whale shark would just bite its time and just open its mouth and just vacuum in quite large amounts so I think because the the whale shark gives kind of a focal point for the the the kind of bait ball to to coalesce around and the and for the the whale shark it means that the the bait fish are

1:38:04 basically getting herded into its mouth so it seems to be a pretty good partnership between them so yeah there's a lot almost everything we know about whale shark distribution in the open ocean apart from satellite tags is based on observations from the tuna fleet because a lot of the time they they use it still goes on in some and quite a few places but like yeah when I was younger there was the big campaigns around dolphin friendly tuna because tuna and dolphins are often associated so both would look for dolphins because they're a lot easier to find the tuna and then they would sit around them assuming that it was going to be dolphin sorry tuna there as well and then that got banned but like whale sharks same thing so they'd look for whale sharks and then they would sit around them knowing that there was likely to be tuna but even then I think and one of the fisheries anyway it was about 73% of the time that whale sharks were caught in the nets they had not realized it was there they were sitting actively around tuna so yeah there's that very strongly associated so it doesn't doesn't actually surprise me that that yeah that that was they were closely associated the sightings the two species like up in up in California and we've seen there was it was interesting for me in eastern Australia we had kind of a vaguely similar kind of story in terms of whale sharks when past a friend of mine at one of the dive sites and my housemate at the time was

1:39:36 a journalist and she was like great and it was the first front page article in the courier mail and in Australia and I got heaps of phone calls after that and emails and things from people that had seen whale sharks and we're like oh I didn't realize that was noteworthy but one of the most interesting calls I had was from a guy that was working down in southern New South Wales in northern Victoria and he was a spotter pilot for the tuna boats there so often when he was flying around looking for tuna he would see tuna and whale sharks together so it was like yeah like it was a kind of you don't see them all the time but but that is sometimes yeah so very similar story really yeah well here with the alvacore tunas like they tend to be when that we have the the La Nina with the cool water years they tend to be closer into shore and I think that's why people would see them during those times I think they're they may be around more but people would see them but again before the internet and camera phones and stuff nobody would ever people would see him and again they would I know like no fisheries guys would fly like marine mammal surveys would see him they just didn't think it was didn't make think it was a big deal seeing these things off there and they got they had them up and down the coast and so yeah that's that's you just that was a for me that was a great educational hearing you say that so learn something here about the whole tuna thing which I didn't know about with these with these with the with those whale sharks I always been wanting to find

1:41:06 out like why they is there an association there with those things and why and do they is it typical for them to like in Japan in California to come into more temperate cooler waters to migrate like into higher like when they you say they go about halfway down the North Island in New Zealand is that fairly cool water there I presume yeah it tends to be there's been some really interesting studies from the Azores that were looking at the kind of northward progression each year of of like about the they call them isotherms like that kind of temperature bands and about that 21 22 degree water was that is when that went past the islands they would have a lot of whale shark sightings when it didn't go past the islands they would not have a lot of whale shark sightings and now that we're starting to note that there's like warming temperatures like moving forwards a little bit each year like there was the first mainland Europe sighting of a whale shark back in the paper was published in 2012 I think the sighting was from 2011 maybe and like same and like kind of north of Japan like sea of a cost or something like that was was maybe from 2013 and like especially especially like you know Europe I mean people have been fishing and observing fish and life there for thousands of years and that's something like a whale sharks pretty noteworthy so it does seem to be that they are maybe creeping northwards a little bit and and potentially creeping

1:42:38 southwards a little bit here too but we haven't really noticed that too too too drastically yeah yeah so I got I guess I got another question a question I have for you is a little bit related but a couple of people like I know did you do you ever get to know Jack Eric at all from New Zealand no no didn't have the pleasure yeah he was just people out there he's he was a very well known shark researcher in the early days Jack Eric from New Zealand wrote some just classic papers and I did the one of them was on the sharks of the order car car carina formies that he published back in the early eighties and I never met him but I corresponded with him when I was a young grad student in the eighties and he is very nice guy and I just I but I I just curious if you ever had a chance to know him or interact with him at all when you were or if he's any kind of had any if you had any interactions with him but didn't sound like you had a chance to meet him at all later when you kind of get started no I unfortunately there's this Malcolm Francis was kind of the the godfather for me in terms of shark research in New Zealand yeah because he's been he was kind of very well established when when I kind of kicked off as a grade student and he's just such a lovely man like so nice it was always really nice with him and that you know if you if you had like young students like maybe honors students that were going to the first conference and they were terrified of talking to anyone it was

1:44:09 always like I knew I could roll them up to to Malcolm as like a big name and just be like oh hey Malcolm this is this is my friend X she's studying this and that kind of thing and just like and he would be really nice to them and that would just like totally break the ice for them so yeah we've been very lucky in New Zealand I think to have some like really great researchers that are also just really nice people yeah yeah yeah Malcolm is terrific guy out yeah I mean for a small country you guys have had some outstanding shark researchers and I knew Malcolm going way back as well and so I just but I never I just I just and he's a terrific guy we could he's a guy I should try to get on the podcast here sometime that share about his career he did some amazing stuff and he but I just like to garrick I never met and he was old or when I even when I started I just didn't know if anybody haven't talked to many people have had any direct connections with them I know Larry Kapani did a few others but it's curious behind me thing there but anyway I know Malcolm is super super good guy so yeah with your with your stuff now are you like still the galavant around the world looking at the whale sharks and everything do you spend much time like now it's your new homeowner in New Zealand you spend much time doing any shark stuff in New Zealand or this like I have I haven't actually had a opportunity to spend much time in New Zealand until I've kind of been here for this summer and it's been amazing I still kind of hold to that there's there's no way better to be

1:45:40 the New Zealand in summer it is now the end of summer and there are quite a few places where I would consider it better to be again that whole water thing so so like the travel will resume shortly but yeah there's it's I mean there's there's actually a ton to do in New Zealand and you said Brit's been on the the podcast a couple of times and of course she's doing amazing work over here Clinton Duffin he's been incredibly knowledgeable about New Zealand fauna but there's there's still tons to do but it's just like yeah at the moment like I'm being pretty busy with the whale sharks and other other MMF work so yeah plenty of plenty of good stuff to do for New Zealand students let's let's talk about that for a little bit with the marine like the MMF how it's set up right like you know you guys it seems like you have a you know fairly good sized organization with a lot of people working with you and for you how is that done like in these days where remote work is is often done obviously you guys work around the world in Mozambique in Indonesia in the US and all over the place how difficult is that to manage as as a founder and as executive director in terms of look like you know you got time zones to deal with you get equipment issues and stuff like that I'm sure in the field how difficult is that to manage and it's it's a lot better now than it

1:47:10 ever has been before I think we were really lucky in that like covered while it kind of like really knocked us on our backsides in terms of international work really accelerated that transition to kind of online work so yeah we use slack a lot as our kind of everyday communication platform for like text and things within the organization there's a lot of video calls unsurprisingly which is which is actually a really nice way to do it is as well I think but we're really lucky in that we've got very strong regional teams MMF so we've got pretty deep programs in Mozambique which is where we started and our global chief operating officer Sarah butchers lives there and our country manager and manager is Mozambique and so the two of them and and like our science team and the rest of the leadership team there like I kind of I have kind of a weekly meeting with Sarah to kind of check in on how things are going and that's it's like a just a it's more of a chat rather than me like managing for sure yeah and the same the same thing and the other kind of likes I have a lot of the idea around programs we have in Florida that's made by Jessica pay our US country manager and in Indonesia with the long running mostly manta ray and now see turtle project going on over there and that's lead by Janice I can start who's

1:48:41 actually just finished her masters at Florida international uni and so we have a lot of people working in the US and I'm really lucky for them and I'm really lucky for them to see that they're doing a great job. So it's nice for me and that I can kind of like check in and if stuff comes up and people want to chat about it and I can chat about it but like this is a pretty good if we keep some busy but it's really nice being able to it's we can all kind of like everyone's working in slightly different cultural context and things of course and everyone can learn from each other we've realized that basically the approach that you described earlier Andrew in terms of like how to approach research is pretty much what we do across the world because we are interested in that like conservation and helping the species recover and like do we need a protected area do we need to work with the fisheries that kind of thing.

1:49:37 So yeah it's it'll be nice I'll be able to spend some time in Indonesia this year I was over in Mozambique last year and stuff so ideally I'd be in each place in each year. Yeah, but like with the we as well as those kind of like permanent research programs and conservation programs. We also have some more seasonal research programs and I'm pretty heavily involved in those. So so it tends to be like we're working with kind of locally based teams and the idea is really that we can give people kind of zero to one like out to be a whale shark researcher kind of package.

1:50:21 Yeah, so we can go and work in in these places and and like show how how we do things and then like as fast as possible we can have locally based teams that are able to kind of really take the lead on that work and if they want advice they've got it. But but that's kind of a like no one's going to understand the local context as well as people that live there and and we've got some amazing like in Mozambique we've got a research fellow program where we get new biology grads and it's a kind of a paid big internship for the year after they've kind of graduated and things and like they learn to dive they learn like underwater research techniques at the moment.

1:51:08 And so I think one of our goals is to have them write and publish a paper over that year and and like just learn as much as possible and that's that's been an amazing way for us to be able to recruit staff when we have that ability, but also it's like really creating that generation of like very very capable marine researchers. Yeah, they're kindly disposed to marine megafauna, which is always good. Yeah, I've noticed on your website. It seems like it stands out. You have a marine megafauna foundation Canada as a Canadian. I'm obviously interested in this. How does that work and why is it separate out like, you know, it seems like you guys work all over the world.

1:51:49 Why is Canada so special to get like a little shout out on your website is and like a separate website as well. How does that work? It's been like we've been really lucky in some places to have people that are really interested in the kind of mission and want to find a way to support. And so in some of these places, it's been about facilitating local work like friends in Mozambique. We do actually have a registered Mozambican Association and M.M.F. is kind of kind of working in partnership with in practice. I would say it's all the same thing, but like it is officially also locally registered and similar in Indonesia and in Canada, we were really lucky that there were some people that were really keen on that were like had been on trips with us and in the field and done multiple trips to Mozambique working with Andrea and things and we're really keen to try and find a way to support M.M.F. more.

1:52:48 And it's like having a locally registered nonprofit is often a really nice way to make that tax tax friendly way to do it for donors and things as well. Yeah. And we're really lucky in Canada that we've had a really strong Canadian contingent of researchers as well. There was a letter German off that did her PhD on on manta rays, but also the impacts of plastics on manta rays and whale sharks. And she was she's from Canada and she was going through Dalhousie and then Nakia Kallain that's she's just finishing her PhD also at Dalhousie. So we're yeah. So we've got a good connection with the country as well, which which always helps.

1:53:32 Is there any are there any like is there any research going on in Canada on a marine megafauna? No, not at this stage. Yeah, there's the only stuff we've gone going on in North America is that we've been helping out with some some manta ray and whale shark stuff and and Mexico and then the kind of Florida manta project, which is gradually taking over adjoining states as well. Gotcha. I'll have to get some polar bears studies going or something. Yeah, now we'll see now. Well, no, I was a V. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. If you're not sure if you're right for that cold, it sounds like, uh, you know, I'll wait for it now. Well, yeah, exactly. Right. It would definitely have a new meaning for you.

1:54:15 Uh, maybe a couple of, so, um, so did you spend much time in Mozambique now with your, um, or you just use mostly video conference, uh, with the, with the team in Mozambique or mostly video conference. Um, there's definitely hoping to spend it, especially now that, um, Andrea is on medical leave. Um, then I'm definitely hoping to spend more time there in person. Um, so yeah, just trying to organize it. So I don't, as I get older, I don't like to jump time zones too many times during the year because I tend to, I tend to suffer for it for about a week afterwards. Um, so I'm trying to tee up. We were just starting a, um, a new whale shark project in Oman. So in years to come, I hope to like, um, be able to link that up with and with a Mozambique and South Africa visit as well.

1:55:07 Well, I'll tell you buddy, it's not going to get any better for you as you get older. So, uh, enjoy it now. I wish I was, I wish I was still your age to run around doing the, doing the traveling. You still travel quite a bit though. Cause I at least looking at your social media, you're seem like you're diving in some exotic, beautiful place all the time. Um, how much are you, we've come up with a great, um, fundraising strategy that like part of our fundraising, um, uh, and kind of engagement, um, uh, workers is to host a dive live the boards and other trips. Though the idea is that people can come on like go diving in amazing destinations and also like learn more about the animals, support the research or that kind of good stuff. And of course, very sadly for me, that doesn't necessarily take me going to these places and dive along with the guests to try and like just maximize the experience of, of diving with the whale shark legend.

1:56:09 That's why I called you the legend. That's been a pretty solid life choice. You see clip that one to use it. Oh, it's been clipped. Yeah. No, it's like when I, when I, um, when it, you know, I was saying how I love that smell of anoxic mangroves, like I do, but I'm kind of glad now that I get to dive in Galapagos instead. Yes. I'll take it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the thing is like just with the actual research strategy of the organization and the philosophy of the organization is that we, although we have like deep regional projects because they're really important areas for me, we're trying to work in the most important sites for these species and to make sure that those areas and that species is effectively protected.

1:57:02 So as I said, like we'll kind of like try and just identify these places and then over time, hopefully we work ourselves out of the job as quickly as possible by like developing capacity of like local research teams and conservation teams to be able to take over. Um, but yeah, we really do want to protect these animals wherever they are found. So that does require a bit of travel to. Where would you if you didn't pursue this thing, this kind of this opportunity that came about because you got to know Andrea Marshall who was screwing around messing around and those and beak at the time and manner is of all things. Where do you think your career would have gone? Otherwise, just curiosity. I reckon it would have been super boring compared to what I get to do. I agree with that. I absolutely agree with that.

1:57:43 But, uh, there's, um, I, it would be an interesting one to like, there's one of the things that I actually got quite a bit of. And I was like jaded with science, I think during my PhD because I was kind of slightly pushed into doing more work on on dead sharks and rays and making them dead myself and that like that I really just like that wasn't why I got into it.

1:58:29 And I realized like that was kind of crushing me a little bit. I was kind of just like, I'm really happy with the PhD that I came out with and the work that I was able to do and really feel like as much as possible. I tried to like the work I did justify that, but I just, it just wasn't what I wanted to be doing. But I was actually think it was funny actually after that conference side in Taiwan, I was seriously thinking about like, I'll finish the PhD, I'll get it. And then I'm going to move to Taiwan and I'm going to become a writer. What's up then? Yeah, maybe a writer and photographer. Um, and then I got the opportunity to like really change things up and do something completely unexpected. And, um, yeah, so that was things could have been quite different.

1:59:11 Yeah. Well, it's a work in progress, work in progress. So this is a super fast. So like what someone per a young person starting out, they kind of the young Simon Pierce, like before he was the legend start now. What if a young person came to you said like, wow, I really like what you do. Like, how would I go about it? What advice would you have for him? It's always a really interesting one. There's, I don't know if I've got anything particularly clever to say about it, but like, I just think there's, well, first of all, like it's a small field. And to a lesser or greater extent, everyone knows each other. Like it's like that probably too young for much of the audience. But like, what is it? Even, even bacon, six degrees of separation.

1:59:58 Yeah, it's maybe one and a half and shark science. So it's like everyone kind of knows each other and personal recommendations go a long way. But I would look at like, locally, to wherever people are, if there are opportunities to work with, especially grad students, because it's like, like, like top academics and things, top shark researchers, they probably get a lot of messages from people wanting to carry their bags, you know, like just just wanting to wanting to get involved with the work. Whereas grad students that are like, generally, the people doing all the tough work, they have, they often have need of help with their projects, doing some of the really boring stuff.

2:00:44 And that but that really goes a long way. So, yeah, it's like, I would say like, this, it's not necessarily about like, traveling to some exotic destination and like doing a kind of two week kind of internship and they're great if you can. But if you can't, then it's like you, you might get to where you want to go, just as fast by working locally and like becoming part of a lab and kind of developing your, your own interests and you might find that's not actually in research because a lot of the time that's boring and hard. And you might find you want to be a dive guide or you might want to be a marine educator or you might want to be a photographer or something, but it's like the faster you can kind of figure that stuff out and get involved in the work.

2:01:32 And then, yeah, if you do decide you want to go and research, then you've got like, you've got experience, you've got hopefully some references, you've got some people that are probably inclined to like reach out to other people they know and say, hey, I met this, this great person that's been helping me for a few months. And like, there's, there's our now principal scientist, Chris Rona, he actually started out as a volunteer for one of my friends at University of Queensland. And I've got it, we were actually having a bit of a moan together about how unreliable a lot of volunteers were with our work of just like, you know, an hour before you were supposed to go out for a couple of days trip or something like that.

2:02:13 They'd be like, I'm really sorry, I can't make it and stuff. And and my friend Steve made the conspicuous exception of saying like, except that guy, Chris, this guy, he was amazing. And like always like really hard worker really smart and that kind of thing. And then about a year later, he actually, Chris emailed me and was like, oh, like, I'm really interested in doing some study on these species. And I was like, that's that guy that's really smart and works really hard that Steve really liked. And I was just going, yeah, sure. Like, let's have a chat. It's an easy. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's kind of like, the more you are a known quantity to either the person that is looking to develop researchers or to someone they know, I think the easier you'll find it.

2:03:01 Yeah, I was just saying, I've said this on the podcast before, but a lot, a lot of times if you do what like you did that you do this volunteer work, you work in different things. You'll never know, but it'll probably be, especially depending on who you're interning with. It'll be a phone call you'll never know about to somebody like you or me or somebody to say, this guy, Chris is a really good guy. Take him. You'd be an idiot. I mean, I had a few phone calls with some student for students that came to work with me. They were like, you'd be basically was like, Dave, you're an idiot not to take this guy. So I took him. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you don't have a choice. It gets awkward. Yeah. You know, you know, exactly. Yeah. But you know, and it's good. I mean, obviously you had to put together your own your own package for applying to grad school and stuff.

2:03:46 But that the network and going to the conferences are huge. I mean, I can't overstate that. Yeah, for sure. And people, you know, just getting to know people and stuff. So yeah, anyway, Simon, this has been like a terrific. I'm really glad we finally had you on here to talk about whale sharks. And I actually learned a lot today too about whale sharks that I didn't know about. And one of these days I've never seen one in the wild, though I have to say of all the places every time I go someplace where there's whale sharks. Oh yeah, you see them for sure. Dave, they never show up as planned. So one of these days I'll have to hit you up and try to go see some. I mean, I want any of your likes and you're the legend.

2:04:27 You'll make sure we see some if we go. Come join us. Yeah. I mean, it does sound like you're a little bit cursed. So I'm not sure about this now. I have several times I've been like, damn it. I always hear that. Oh, they're always here, Dave, except when you showed up, they seem to do. Yeah, that was an Ecuador with the guys there where they're doing diving with the manners and the whale sharks. And they, they didn't show up. They showed up a couple days after I left this day. They showed up a couple days after I left this day. Have these things showed up there? All kinds of manner. I've seen manner race. I don't really care about those as much as I've seen, but the whale sharks, I'd love to see. And they, of course, like I said, about five or six of them showed up like, right? Couple days after I left Ecuador. So kind of bummed about that. But next time, but yeah, coming out. Yeah, next time. Yeah, make a plan. Anyway, thanks Simon so much for coming on the podcast and we'll have all of your social media and all your marine megafauna connections, uh, contacts up on the website here for everybody. But thank you so much for coming on the show. No, I'm telling you. Thanks guys. It's been awesome chatting to you. Thank you, Simon, for joining us on today's episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. Dave, what a fun episode talking about whale sharks.

2:05:39 What'd you think? It was awesome. I mean, we, we, you know, we had the legend on, on the whale shark. That way I know he's going to be using that. Um, it was great. I mean, I, I said I learned some stuff. I had some questions, particularly. I was really interested to hear him talk about his association with the album, with the tunas and the whale sharks and some of that, which is stuff that, you know, I just, I didn't really know. No, I've seen a few publications on it, but that was fascinating to me. But I think, I think more, more importantly, just his whole trajectory, how, you know, we were kind of asking him like, well, how would, what would happen? Where were you planning to go with your career before you got into whale sharks? And he was like, I basically, he was just thinking of going, not really having any photography, right? And photography, moving to Taiwan. He just wrote it and had a story. I mean, he didn't have a, didn't really have any direction where he was going to go with it. And, uh, until he got up, he met up with the Andrea Marshall. They went off to Mozambique and, uh, found a whole lot of whale sharks there. So it was, again, another fascinating story to hear. Uh, someone who, you know, whose career trajectory certainly was not straight. I said he didn't have, he, it wasn't like he had whale sharks in his mind as a young kid or anything. No, yeah. Actually the opposite. Right. Yeah. He just knew sharks, but he didn't know like, anything, which ones you do. And he, like you said, he was even had more interest in like a lot of the rays and kind of the lesser known sharks was kind of his real, his real interest. And then he got, got out and had a chance to go do the whale sharks. He's become, he's become quite the world, world expert on him too. So it was super fascinating to hear. And he's,

2:07:10 then they, of course they've built the whole marine, uh, megafauna foundations, just, it's global now and scope. They really have built quite a, quite a, quite a, quite a, uh, industry or business there. And some of his, the things he talked about, some of the places are gone. Some of the stuffs are being doing work. You found it, you discovered they have, they had a, had a Canada Canadian branch. Didn't even know about that. I don't even know about that. I do die to the whole idea, man. Yeah, but one thing that stood out to me during the interview, you know, at the end, you know, he mentions, you know, when we always ask, you know, what, what would you, what advice would you give people? And he really focused in on knowing people and, and, and building those relationships within the, the shark world because as you mentioned, and as he mentioned, it's, it's, it's very small group of people and everybody knows each other and they, they work off that references really matter in this situation.

2:08:02 and you even talked about how some people would refer students to you and be like, you need to take this student on, even though if you weren't sure about the student, you hadn't met the student before, you're like, yeah, no, I'm going to take it because I trust this person. I think that's a really important thing. And it really worked off of his career too, for his career knowing Andrea to be able to say, Hey, yeah, I'm going to help you with this. We're going to found this, this organization that has now become global in the hard work that they've put together. Yeah. Well, they were literally like lab mates, you know, the university or university of Queensland. And she knew this place. She'd been running around Africa and wanted to go do this thing. And she convinced him to go over there and totally changed the trajectory of his plans in her and his career.

2:08:45 And that's I think it's from people. Listen to the young people. Listen, it happens that way. A lot of times, you know, it's a small field. You sometimes you get an opera. It's all about opportunity. He had some opportunity, took advantage of it. You know, didn't really know what he was getting into. And then he turns out he ends up made it made it a life life life life long decision career decision. Really. Absolutely. Yeah. Going there. And I think that's that's really cool. I mean, it's really cool to hear a story like that on how he how he got to worry where he is now. And say nothing he planned on. It was just something he learned. And I think, yeah, so I think it's interesting how it's not easy to do to start an organization like this for both for both him and Andrea.

2:09:26 Like it takes a lot of work. There's a lot of struggle that goes in. We didn't really get into it a lot. I think we'll get into it more next time he comes back and talk more about whale sharks. But it's a really difficult thing to start an organization like that for both of them to be able to do that, to have this team now from, you know, in Mozambique and Indonesia and Florida to be able to say, hey, look, like we've built this thing. We've we've discovered more things about all the different species that we've been just we've been studying and we've been able to contribute not only to with your from the organization perspectives and community levels, but we've also been able to. Contribute to the science of the species and I think that's when you look back at that legacy, it's a difficult thing to build. It's not easy at all.

2:10:06 You know, funding is difficult to find all the time. They have these these live aboard trips that they do to help with funding and paying for a lot of different aspects of the organization. It's not easy to run an organization like this, especially a nonprofit one. And so I a lot of kudos to them to say, hey, you know what, like we're doing a great thing here. We're able to contribute to science as well as the local communities, which I love. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I know it was really good. I said he he's he's I think, yeah, they get involved with which is always good to see involved with the communities there. They get by in there and they're basically training the next generation of locals there in terms of the conservation and the science and these in the in the people there.

2:10:46 And I think that that's obviously a terrific thing because, you know, at some point when you're doing that, you're going to go home at some point being a foreigner, you know, and so there's, you know, if you leave something behind like that, that's that's just like magic to be able to do that. Right. Leave something like that for for the next for the next generation. Yeah. That'll be that'll be more impactful than than almost any publication you'll ever write. Agreed. So yeah, I agree. So that was really that was really good to hear that. Hear all that hear all that stuff. And yeah, of course, he gets to dive in all these beautiful, exotic places with hard life to lead. Yeah. Life and that's it in that respect. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So one of these days, nothing else will have to go. Maybe next time we have mom will actually we'll go to him. We'll go on a dive trip.

2:11:32 Yes. We'll go on a dive trip in a nice tropical area. I think it'd be nice where we will see. Apagos, you know, that'd be nice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think we'll just we'll just choose because, you know, we have all this money podcasting money's lucrative, right? Absolutely. Please subscribe. Yeah, please subscribe. We're begging you. We're going to do our show. Yeah. Yeah, please. But no, this is great. We'll we'll share, you know, Marion Megafauna's social media as well as Simon's. And you guys can connect with with them and follow them and find out more about what they do. And Dave, if people want to get a hold of you, how would they do? So it's a it's Lost Shark Guy, but also check out my new YouTube channel, The Lost Shark Guy and the and the new series I have up there searching for Lost Sharks.

2:12:12 Extinct or live. The first two episodes are up. The third one should be up about the time this podcast is posted. And please subscribe to that channel as well as the Beyond Jaws. Absolutely. And yeah, thank you so much, Dave. And thank you, Simon, for joining us on today's episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. We are your host, Dave and Andrew. We want to thank you so much for joining us. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.