She Spent Years Tracking Sharks in Crocodile-Infested Rivers

1:00:00 We have a special episode for you today. We have Julia Constance who is back from her first episode where she talked about her career. Today she's talking about what she did for her PhD because yes, we are now talking to Dr. Julia Constance. She has been able to attain her PhD. She's talking about her experience with that, but also talking about what she's been up to and what she did over the PhD and where she worked because where she worked was really, really interesting. And you can catch a glimpse of what environment she's working in and the crocodiles that are there. In the latest episode of searching for lost sharks, we're going to be able to find out all about that. It's quite the story and let's start the show.

1:00:40 Welcome back everybody to another episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. I'm your co-host Andrew Lowen here with my co-host, Dr. David Ebert. Dave, are you ready? This is a really special episode, not only because we are announcing that Julia on the episode officially that Julia is Dr. Julia Constance, but you actually got to visit Julia in her study environment when you started to do your Searching for Lost Sharks episode, the latest one that's out on Lost Shark Guy YouTube channel. How exciting is this to not only see Julia get her PhD, but to be able to talk about the environment and you get to experience, you got to experience what kind of environment she was working. Yeah, I know it was great.

1:01:21 It was really awesome. And yeah, I hope everybody checks out the episode Lost and Found, the River Shark story, the latest episode of Searching for Lost Sharks on my YouTube channel, Lost Shark Guy. Anyway, Julia is one of those young early career researchers, you know, I featured in the series here and we went out to look for the River Sharks and it is a story as I lay out a little more in the detail stuff, but it was really these lot, these, these River Sharks kind of laid help lay the foundation for the shark conservation back in the 80s. Yeah, and that's the star Sarah Fowler's involved Sarah Fowler and Leonard Campagno and others, but it really was these the group of Sharks that laid the foundation for this and it was great to work with Julia because she's one of those explorers who likes to go out and look for little known or basically lost sharks out there.

1:02:12 And this was just a perfect perfect episode to have her come back on talk about her PhD where she's at now where she's going and talk about the episode and which is which is really wonderful. And I had a chance to see Julia just recently at the Sharks International and talk to you after. Hey Julia, welcome back to the Beyond Jaws podcast. Are you ready to continue our conversation about Sharks?

1:03:02 Welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast. Right on there. Julia was on the podcast back in January of 2024 as a PhD candidate. And at the time she talked about the extinction of the Java Stingery, which was the first documented extinction of a marine species and it's listing on the IUC and Red List as being extinct, which I'd encourage you please to check out that episode. It's pretty extremely fascinating. Well, since we last spoke with Julia, she's completed her PhD on the natural mortality and movement ecology of the Northern Territories, Goliathis, a River Shark species for her PhD.

1:03:47 And she covered both the spear nose or excuse me, the spear tooth River Shark as well as the Northern River Shark as well as explore looking at the long term movements and the environmental drivers of these movements for each species in the River Cishes of the Northern Territory. It was very cutting edge stuff because it's actually fascinating, fascinating information. So Julia also just recently returned from the Sharks International Conference where I also attended out in Colombo in Sri Lanka. And I also mentioned Julia is one of the featured researchers on the YouTube documentaries, Searching for Lost Sharks, Extincture Live on my YouTube channel at Lost Shark Guy. Please check it out and you find out more about her research on that in an episode there.

1:04:29 And for that Julia, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me again. Great. So and congratulations. Thank you. So glad it's over. Yeah. So well, how does it feel now to be doctor? It's really good. I submitted in May 2025. Congratulations. I only just actually officially graduated last month. PhD. It's kind of been a long drawn out process. But now like having the actual graduation ceremony, it's like it's actually done. It's actually over. It's very cool. And it's a long journey.

1:05:16 So most universities in Australia, it is like that. But my university there is no defense. I opted to do a presentation of my final results. So I did opt to do a seminar to the public. But then yeah, essentially they just send your thesis out to reviewers and then you get revision comments back. You revise your thesis and then the university looks whether or not to accept it. Yeah, cool. Cool. So before we get a little further here, why don't you just remind everyone like, a little bit of your background, Julia, where are you from in Australia and how'd you wind up in Darwin?

1:06:15 Yeah, so I moved to Australia and I went to Australia and I wanted to be a vet at the time. And then I decided that I really wanted to stay working with wildlife instead of being a vet. And so then I moved to Wollongong, which is just south of Sydney and did conservation biology as a degree. And then after that, I was kind of looking at what to do. But I knew that I wanted to move to northern Australia and ended up getting off of my owners here in Darwin. So I moved here. I was only supposed to be here for a year. It happens that way sometimes. So yeah, that's good. That's good. That's good with your stuff there. So so now that obviously you've been worked. Tell us a little bit about your study, which is a little more detail of what you did with the river sharks.

1:06:59 And so essentially my research was using a very long established acoustic telemetry data set. So my supervisor Peter Klein set up an acoustic receiver array back in 2013 in a series of river systems here in the Northern Territory. And they tagged at the time around 200 northern river sharks and speartooth sharks. And so I had for some of the animals up to 10 years of tracking data that I then took over the management of the acoustic receiver array. So I had this huge data set that I can then look at things like movement ecology for each species and each size class and each location and each season.

1:07:40 And then also look at just the movements that these sharks were taking over long term periods and what were the potential drivers of these. And then during my PhD, I also got to go and just survey a new river system and found a new population of the speartooth shark as well. And I was like, oh, this is all very fun. I mean, I think I'm going to go and do some tagging back in 20, 24, 24. Yeah.

1:08:24 Almost two years ago. Yeah. Highlight experience for me if you can catch the episode with Julia and I because I'd my advisor Leonard Capone had been obsessed with river sharks back in the 1980s. So I kind of got an indoctrinated early on. But when you when you kind of started working out there or they were back up when they call them river sharks, they're not really river. They're not really river sharks in terms of like freshwater river. They're more like a saline or estuarine environment. Is that correct? Yeah. So we call them Yurihayline species, which means that they can occur anywhere from freshwater all the way through to marine and they do undertake part of their life history in non marine environments.

1:09:06 So essentially for these species, the mums are coming into the river systems to give birth. The pups are then spending most of their juvenile years, even until they're adults in the river systems and then they're moving out into the marine systems. So in the early days of river shark research, they were considered a freshwater species. So similar to the freshwater obligate rays in South America. So we couldn't find them for a very long time because we were looking in the wrong spots because they were early early considered just completely freshwater. Now they do go into completely freshwater, but most of the time they're more in the brackish water. And they don't really move outside into the true marine environment very much either, do they?

1:09:52 We have so once they matured, do they move out of the river systems? My tracking data found that there was beer to sharks staying in river systems until they were 16, 17 years old. So staying a lot later than we thought that they would. But then they move out into the marine system. And from there, we have no idea where they go because we've never tracked these animals in the marine system. So there was animals that would disappear for years at a time and just pop into the mouths of different river systems. So they are staying in the marine waters, but where they go and what kind of marine habitats they use, we still don't know as adults. Oh, wow. So they don't and they rarely catch them in the marine environment. Is that correct?

1:10:34 Yeah, they're really rarely recorded. I wonder if it's more of a identification issue potentially because of the high second dorsal fin. People may be thinking that they're lemon sharks when they're in the marine systems. I think it's still maybe they're being caught. Maybe they're not. But I think it's more of an identification issue. Yeah. So so really almost like a next step in this whole study, this next step is also if you actually see what they're doing in the marine in the marine environment. Yeah, that would be the dream for me. I did apply for some funding during my PhD to get some satellite tags going to track the adults. But that would be the dream next step if I was to find something.

1:11:18 And how difficult do you think it'd be to go to try to catch them in the marine environment? I think it's it's a lot harder when you're in the river systems. There's obviously much fewer species that you're going to interact with. So your chances of catching the river sharks that you're targeting is a lot higher. But then in the marine system, you've got all these other species that you're potentially going to be catching as bycatch that are going to be much more common. So yeah, definitely targeting them in the marine system. It's going to be a little more challenging. Yeah, okay. Yeah. So so I mean, it's kind of fascinating that they live in such because they live in such a narrow at least the early stage of their life history. They live in such a narrow environment that if those if that habitats impacted, it would really impact basically the entire species, correct?

1:12:07 Yeah, so absolutely completely niche kind of habitat that they're going for. And their movements are completely different to other species that are occurring in these kinds of habitats. So they're really weird and that they've just pushed themselves into these really narrow spaces. And as you say, if we start to mess with these river systems start to change their habitat, they're not really going to have anywhere to go. And there's not a lot of movement between rivers. So we lose the population in one river, then they're probably going to not come back. That's gone. And like how many how many river systems are up to like 12 now river systems for these sharks?

1:12:48 Well, I wouldn't be able to tell you off the top of my head. Essentially, they're not found in every river system, as you say, I wouldn't be able to tell you the count of it off the top of my head. But yeah, certainly less than 20. Less than 20 river systems. It's all strictly up in the Northern Territory, pretty much. So the spear to shark is found in one river system in Queensland, and then they found across the Northern Territory and into Western Australia. And then the Northern River shark is found just in the Northern Territory in Western Australia. And then both species are also found in Southern Papua New Guinea as well.

1:13:28 Okay. And do they the species tend to do you find them co-occurring in the same river system? So they do co-occur in some river systems. Some river systems only have the one species, but where they do co-occur, you'll generally find that there's a slightly more populous species in that river system. Okay. So for example, in Adelaide River, where we went fishing, the more the more dominant species there is the spear to shark. And some of the ones as some of the other ones are the Northern spear to dominate and some of the other ones? Yeah, so the Northern River shark is the more dominant species in the South Alligator River, for example. Okay. Okay. I just want to let you know, Andrew lost his internet, but we're still recording. So we'll just keep on it. We'll just keep talking until he gets back on. Okay.

1:14:12 So yeah, it looks like record. Anyway, okay, he'll edit that out. Anyway, okay. I mean, this is kind of fascinating to me and that these things are so they have such a narrow habitat. It reminds me a little bit of like the soft fish, which, you know, use mangroves in a coastal area and a lot of areas are habitats just been destroyed. And so that which impacts our life cycle. And so you got this other this thing. I mean, in Australia, they're probably the Northern spear tooth and the spear tooth are probably in pretty good shape because it's in Australia. But when you go to like, say, Papua New Guinea or some of the other countries that say don't have as stringent a conservation regulations that you kind of concern that they might be impacted more.

1:15:00 Yeah, so northern Australia is definitely a really good area for these kinds of threatened species. We still have concerns for these species. For example, in the Northern Territory, there's a lot of water resource development that the government is wanting to do. So for example, to increase the amount of agriculture and mining that happens in the Northern Territory. So, for example, the Adelaide River, which is the spear tooth sharks most important river system in the world, largest population of spear tooth sharks globally there. They're essentially wanting to capture the freshwater flows that occur there during the wet season and store them off stream in an off stream water storage unit.

1:15:44 So essentially, that's going to change the dynamics of the flow of that river. And that could potentially impact the movements of these species, but it's also going to cause cascading effects. So for example, a lot of the fish species that the spear tooth shark and the northern river shark are going to be consuming in that river system, their life cycles are highly, highly dependent on that freshwater flow. So as soon as we impact those species, we then also impact the prey species of our river sharks as well. So at the moment, certainly compared to, for example, the Ganges River shark in the rest of Asia, our river sharks in Australia are doing really well.

1:16:26 But we are looking at potential concerns. Really? So outside Australia, though, really, Papua New Guinea is the only place you find either of these species, is that correct? Yeah, so these two species that I worked on there endemic to northern Australia and southern Papua New Guinea. So the Ganges shark, which I know you didn't work on, but you and I had an opportunity to see when we were in Jakarta, it was that's one that how would you characterize that as being critically endangered on its way to potentially extinct? Yes, so that species is listed as critically endangered, very, very rare to find records of it still occurring throughout its range. And we pretty much know nothing about it. We draw a lot of conclusions about potentially its life history and things from our northern Australian species.

1:17:22 But it's one of those things that we it's so hard to find because it's so, so, so rare and so threatened now that I hold a lot of concerns for it personally. Yeah. And there's absolutely there's absolutely no records of it in Australia at all. It's just it does not it doesn't get very OK. Yeah, that's that's the one I really think that's that really has from all the stuff I've I've known over the years and talking with Leonard Kapano and then talking to you and Pete and Fami. And Fami that seems to be the one that's really a lot of concern because we're we're used to range from and to now it's just it's just gone down quite a quite a bit in terms of its distribution and everything like and everything. So so I got so I got asked. So I got to ask you because I know it was a fascinating for me, fascination for me working in a habitat and some of the unforeseen things is saltwater crocodiles.

1:18:21 I think they go out to another environments are working around just just to set the story up here for you and I'll turn it over to you Julia. But so when you go out there, you're working with sharks and you already have real people realize that's kind of a known hazard, especially if you're working large toothy sharks. But you get out there and you start working with large saltwater crocodiles and I'm talking like five meters or more doesn't have to be five meters. It could be two meters. So, Julia, tell us tell us tell everybody out here what that's like. Look, it's a very, very different. It's a really, really different environment that I work on here.

1:19:02 So, for example, these river sharks, their favorite favorite water is chocolate milk colored muddy, muddy, turbid water and pretty much their ideal habitats is always a overlapping with saltwater crocodiles. As, as Dave said, these, this is a really, really big species. The biggest recorded saltwater crocodile was 6.14 meters. So we're talking like huge, huge. And they're really, really aggressive. Yeah. And so generally, when I'm fishing for sharks, for example, I've got to be quite careful. I've got to be quite careful. I've got to be quite careful. I've got to be quite careful. I've got to be quite careful. I've got to be quite careful. I've got to be quite careful.

1:19:44 You don't want to be drawing too much attention to what you're doing because these saltwater crocodiles are intrinsically just very, very curious. So for example, if I'm fighting a freshwater whip ray for a very long time, they you will see crocodiles popping up all over the place having a look and starting to come closer and be like, what are you doing over there? Is it like you mentioned after is it like with in terms of how you fish, it's like a rod and reel of how you catch these sharks, right? That's what you mean by it can't be thrashing around. You got to be quiet in that case. But like, or is it quiet as in just even talking, you have to kind of whisper around.

1:20:24 No. So, okay. As much as these crocodiles are extremely dangerous. They are still wary of people. So in the 1970s in northern Australia, we got down to 3000 saltwater crocodiles across all of northern Australia because we were absolutely shooting them almost to extinction. And a lot of the crocodiles that survived that period are still going because they're very long lived. So there is like this intrinsic fear of people. And it's probably a memory of being shot at as well. So these crocodiles are generally not too cheeky unless you've had, you know, recreational fishes trying to feed them and do silly things like that.

1:21:09 So generally, it's not generally not having to be too concerned about them. It's more of like you've just got to be really watching what's happening around you and paying attention, not putting your hands in the water. And it's more of just a croc awareness, croc safety practice. And that and that includes I can tell you just to set this story up because Julia, we went out, we spent time in northern Australia and then Julia and I went to Timor Lesty, which will touch on in just a moment, which has nothing to do with river sharks there but when we went out, when I went out there, like because this was in Australia, they go over the safety, the safety protocol for being on the on the river or go just watching the boat even to go out with the saltwater crocodile.

1:21:53 I was like, don't walk down to the dock, you wait on the boat. You know, you're always looking around because these things are really sneaky as well. They can be very they can like pop up like pretty close to you. And like, you don't even you don't sit at the edge of the boat when you're out when you go out in the river because one of them could literally lunge out of the water and snatch you right off the boat pretty quickly. So you go over all this stuff, all of this protocol and stuff, which is good. It's good safety measure. You know, someone like me, I, you know, I had a little experience in Africa with crocodiles, but this was kind of very different setting. So you go through, which is very good. You have all these protocols and stuff. When Julia and I went to Timor Lesty, you don't have any such protocols and that there and there's freaking saltwater crocodiles everywhere in Timor Lesty to where you don't step off the road at all because you might get snack. You might become a snack for saltwater crocodile there. And there's plenty of them there. So anyway, yeah, I think that's the thing about the Northern Territory is we have the largest saltwater crocodile population on the planet.

1:22:56 We're up to about 100,000 saltwater crocodiles over two meters long just in the Northern Territory. So it's a massive, massive population. But we have very, very few deaths. It's like less than one person per year, if that. So I think that the thing about here is that we've just had this just crocodile safety just drummed into us and it's just how we behave now. Like for me, when I go and visit my family on the east coast of Australia, I'll see my niece standing next to a river system. And I'm like, what are you doing? Why are you standing so close to the water? But it's just it just becomes this inherent inherent part of how you behave. But yeah, like even just working with the crocodiles, you look at other people that have done acoustic telemetry research elsewhere in the world and they get to dive into this crystal clear blue water and just go and retrieve their acoustic receivers.

1:23:47 For me, as I said, the water is like chocolate milk colored, there's crocodiles. So what I had to do to retrieve my acoustic receivers was actually just throw a hook over the side of the boat and turn around in circles over your location, potentially for hours depending on how buried it's become after the last wet season. So it really just changes your whole practice and the whole way that you do science. Yeah, when you when you tell you know, even you mentioned it, like a lot of people when you see them studying sharks, they're in crystal clear waters, it's beautiful, they can dive in and everything. You had the opposite. Because of this, this chocolate milk kind of water, this muddy kind of water. When you describe to people what you do, like non scientists, even other scientists, I guess, when you describe to people what to do, they just be like, like, why, why would you choose to study something like that in an area where you're not in crystal blue water?

1:24:41 It's like, what is it about these river sharks that makes it so interesting for you to, you know, put yourself in a system where you're probably more apt to be in danger or, you know, once false move, you know, like, if you're not paying attention, could put you in some sort of harm and you're working like chocolate milk kind of water. Like, what is it that makes you want to do that? I find it absolutely fascinating. And I think that the thing about working here is that it is just, it's like literally nowhere else on the planet, the places that I get to go and work places that very, very, very few people in the world are ever going to be able to visit, especially in a more remote locations.

1:25:24 And these areas have been almost untouched. So like everywhere else, you know, for example, where the Gandy's River shark is, for example, I've been completely modified, completely overfished, completely impacted by human beings. But I'm going to river systems where you might have 50, 50 people that go and visit there to go fishing recreationally in a year. And there's no commercial fishing and river systems in the Northern Territory. Some river systems they set up just outside the mouth. But essentially, these systems are like nowhere else in the world. And so it's kind of when people ask me about what I do, I can kind of give them an insight about systems that they're never going to get to experience and that very, very, very few people ever do get to experience.

1:26:09 Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, I mean, it's like it's like I always tell people ask me about like looking for lost sharks. And I just tell them like it's going where most people won't go. And like where Julia works, I can affirm that like a lot of people won't go to the areas where she's working because it's not, it's not, I don't say it's not pleasant. I thought it was kind of cool myself, but I love it. I think it's amazing. Yeah, you get into it, you get really excited about it. But but a lot of people won't go there just because it's it's not a real pleasant area to have to go work. And, you know, you could get wildlife there that might eat you. And you've definitely got to be a certain type of person. So, for example, one of the places that I love to work, I'm literally just camping on a on a floodplain. There's no shade, there's no toilets. I'm usually the only woman around.

1:26:54 And it's one of my favorite places in the whole world. And people are like, that place isn't very nice. And I'm like, I could not like it's a place that I fly over. I flew over it on Friday last week. And I'm like there. And I'm like, I just want to be there. So I guess you've got to be a certain type of person as well. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Definitely. Definitely takes a certain personality to be able to do that. And I just got one more thing. One more thing on the crocodiles is Julia mentioned you have whatever how many how many attacks you have maybe a year in the Northern Territory. Less than one. That's very, very. And I get a contrast that we went the team or less in like I think every village we went to Julia, like somebody got taken out like in the last few days or last week or I mean every village had a story about somebody just getting whacked within the within a few days.

1:27:43 And it's just you ask him like how many people get taken a year by the crocodiles and they're like, well, a lot. There's no number. They just say a lot of people and but they just like go ahead. The thing is the way that people are living as well, like in the Northern Territory, we're privileged enough to not have to come down to the river system to have it, have a shower or wash our clothes and things like that. Yeah. So it's very different. It's us inherently at a safer in a safer position. Yeah. It's kind of a spiritual animal to and Timor Lesty, the saltwater crocodiles as well. Yeah. Same for some of our Aboriginal communities here in the territory. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let me ask you something like, OK, so you're up there doing the river shark and stuff. Did you ever come across a sawfish very often?

1:28:26 I never saw a sawfish during my actual research. So just me being very unlucky. I'm pretty sure that one spent past us one day because the person that I was with saw some very shark like Ray Finn's way upstream. So they're definitely around, but I've never encountered them during my research, but they're kind of usually kind of more upstream than the river sharks and they're doing kind of different behaviours. So, for example, the river sharks, the way that they move is completely unlike the rest of the Urie Haline species in northern Australia. So, for example, in the wet season, our river sharks are moving all the way out to the river mouth when we have our big freshwater flows coming down the river and they're kind of hanging around the river mouth for most of the wet season.

1:29:12 But then we have our bull sharks, the large two sawfish, the freshwater with praise. They actually go further, further upstream and they use the wetlands. They use all that highly productive wet season flooding floodplains to feed. So the river sharks are kind of just their own thing that do their own thing and they're completely different. So the way that they have a. So, sorry to interrupt because like when you said I have to. And the bull sharks go up river too. Like is it like you mentioned after is it like in terms of how you fish is like a rod of real and how you catch these sharks, right? Yeah. So I think that the bull sharks are the bull sharks are popping around the river mouth. Or is it quite as it just in the same area as the river sharks.

1:29:53 But then they're using that to make sure they pop the wet season. Yeah. And they're using that wet season to extend further and further upstream pretty much as far as they can go. So in the Roper River, for example, they've been recorded to at least 300 kilometers upstream and they will go absolutely right up as far as they can go. So I think that's a good question. Do you have. Have you got any. You probably will be on what you did in your study. But do you have any feel for like how do all these things interact with that with the you got the bull sharks got the river sharks got the sawfish up there and you got fresh water stingrays going up there too. Yeah. So I think that the freshwater we praise aren't really interacting too much with the sharks.

1:30:33 I've caught a couple of freshwater with braids that have got scars that look like crocodile bites. And so I can't really speak too much to because I haven't interacted with them very much. But then certainly when you're catching river sharks, it's really interesting. One year there will be absolutely no bull sharks where you're catching river sharks. But then the next year you'll have bull sharks just absolutely mixed in and you don't know what kind of is driving this change. So generally we consider that the bull sharks are not really going to be overlapping too much with the river sharks, probably except for that early popping season when they've just all been put in the same location.

1:31:17 But generally we consider that the bull sharks are going to be upstream further and not really overlapping. And then the two river sharks species will be in the same the same overlapping spot. But certainly when you're fishing for sharks, you catch a lot of sharks in this area that have bite marks from other sharks. So we obviously got two potentially three species that are all occurring in quite a narrow habitat. And so, of course, we're going to have overlapping bitey people that want to bite each other. So you can you can catch some sharks that have some pretty crazy, crazy injuries.

1:31:58 Yeah. Is there any evidence? I've seen a few video clips of like crocodiles with bull sharks. Any evidence of like them? I'm sure they did. It happens. But any evidence that you've seen of them eating river sharks? I've never seen a river shark be in my croc. And all of the pictures that I've seen of the crocodiles taking sharks has been a bull shark. But I'm sure that it happens. Essentially, a shark is going to be a lot faster than a crocodile. And having worked with crocodiles, they are just inherently lazy. But if a shark happens to just swim right past the jaws of a crocodile, it's going to absolutely grab it. So that's generally what happens there. Those crocs are pretty quick, especially short distances. They're lunge.

1:32:42 And I mean, they can lunge. Go out if anybody wants to find out. Just go out. There's a number of websites you go to and just get an idea how much these crocodiles can lunge. It's pretty impressive. Otherwise, you seem kind of laven on the riverbanks doing nothing. Just lay right stuff. But they they. Yeah. And if something swims in, you know, in distance of its jaws, the way that it can swing its head around and just grab things so quickly is absolutely crazy. Yeah. The reflexes are amazing. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty incredible there. So so that obviously it's fascinating hearing your story. And I just want to emphasize, Julie is doing something like you said earlier, she's working in an area on species that most people won't go out work in those areas and stuff.

1:33:24 And especially if you're a young person looking for something to do, you want to make a mark for yourself early on, you know, kind of what Julie has done to find something that nobody's looking at. And often in an area that nobody will be nobody else is willing to go to. And you'll find you'll find that's that's where you can have a chance. When you when you tell you know, even you mentioned it, like a lot of people like you see the sharks are crystal clear waters. It's beautiful. They can dive in and everything. And you had the opposite because of the people start now. If you go out and do another white shark study, literally describe to have to be a 1000 and non scientists are scientists are out there. When you describe to be what to do, they just feel like like, why would you choose to study something like that in an area where you're not in.

1:34:08 She came on. She actually worked on these sharks that makes it interesting for you to put yourself in a system where you're probably more apt to be in danger or actually, you know, once once you know, you're kind of a precious habitat for that thing. And I think that's pretty much all kind of kind of water. Yeah, I think I was 100% certain before I went to Jakarta that this thing was gone. So when I did most of this research on the Java Stingray, it was during COVID. So I couldn't go and travel. And so when we went to Jakarta was the first time that I'd actually been and seen the habitat of the Java Stingray and just seeing.

1:34:51 Just seeing the place in person, even though I knew what kind of state it was probably in. I was just like, if I was sure before I'm like 150% sure now because you know, even just the color of the water, the pollution there, just the number of people, the amount of fishing, the fishing intensity, it was coming from the Northern Territory. It was just something like you have to see to believe it was crazy. Yeah, yeah, that's too bad. And it's the thing about it. And just to emphasize, we only know that Java Stingray from one specimen collected in 1862 that was in a museum collection in Europe. If it wasn't for that museum collection, we'd have no idea this thing ever even existed.

1:35:33 And so that's that's I guess another plug for museum collections, why the importance of having those things. Otherwise, who knows how many species may have disappeared because there's no specimens to document that it even occurred. And also with the Java Stingray, the fact that habitat disappeared, you know, kind of gives you kind of a foreshadowing of things like with the river sharks, if the habitats impacted, sawfish, as we mentioned, and a number of other species. And I got it. It's just around these rare and extinct and potentially extinct species. I got to ask you about your tattoo on your arm. The Red Sea torpedo. Yes, I got the Red Sea torpedo tattooed last year.

1:36:16 Yes, I think. Tell us about that one. So the Red Sea torpedo is another species that I worked on when I was working on the Java Stingray. So for my honours project, I was looking at the extinction risk of really rare species that I've only known from museum specimens. So the Red Sea torpedo, there was only three specimens of the species caught in 1897, just off Yemen in the Red Sea. And it's never been seen again. But because we haven't been able to survey that region, we still don't know whether it's there or whether it's not because obviously there's so much conflict in that region that people generally can't really put too much effort into surveys for a little known torpedo ray.

1:36:58 So it's kind of one of those species that I'm like, oh, one day I really, really, really want to go find it, or at least do surveys and see if it's around or not. Yeah, yeah. So that's another one. You're really into these little known, extinct, potentially extinct species. Yeah, I like these odd things that nobody else is thinking about. And as you were saying before, there is so many species that we don't know pretty much anything about. I did a review as part of my PhD on all of the Yuri Haline and Estrion species of sharks and rays. And there are so many of them that are just completely so poorly known that we can't do any kind of management for them.

1:37:40 So, so much space. So is that in the future, like now that you've got your PhD and, you know, you obviously have an interest in looking at these little known species. Is that what you would like to concentrate in the future that continue to sort of look for these species describe them, discover new populations. Is that where your research topics are headed? Yeah, that's what I would really ideally like to be doing. So there's there's so much technology and so much cool things that you can do with species, but I really kind of want to go back to basics of figuring out what things are where, what are their life history traits, what is all of that kind of basic information that we need to just start managing them in the first place and just start understanding them in the first place so that we can actually protect them.

1:38:29 And that's, yeah, that's essentially where I'd like to go. Whether or not I find some funding. That's a different question. Yeah, we could have a whole episode. Trust me when Julia and I were traveling with Adriana and Naya, which we got an earful and heard an earful from me and the whole thing like good luck. You just have to. So hard. And I think that people are forgetting about that this kind of more basic, less exciting research is really, really important because there's so many like really cool fun things that we can be doing. And that's it seems to be where the funding is kind of going. Do you have one species that if you had if you had, say, funding wasn't a limitation or is there one species you'd like to try to go find the Red Sea torpedo for sure.

1:39:13 They're so interesting. All of the torpedoes because they're so poorly known. Like, as you as you know, Dave, the taxonomy is so poorly resolved as well. Like, I'm really interested in the taxonomy. These things, too. Yeah, that's really that's really that's really good. Exciting, exciting to hear you have the stuff. And so that's kind of cool. Red Sea torpedo. That's what I have to look at. But I yeah, like you said, it's a conflict zone. So I don't know how much we could really, really do much there right now on it. Yeah. So and so now you're done and everything. You're out kind of like you know, you're working a couple different jobs, you're out looking for for employment now. Do you want to make any kind of a plea or grovel to employers? Yeah, I'm just out in the world by myself now. Yeah, look, I am really, really in a position where I really want to stay in the Northern Territory and do research here. So if anyone knows of any kind of funding opportunities that I could base myself with here, that'd be awesome. But also, if anyone wants to work on torpedoish things, too, you could totally collaborate.

1:40:16 Yeah, I would that work? Like, can I ask like, like, you mentioned a couple times if I can get funding? Like, are you working out of the university right now? Or? Yeah, so in said jobs? Yeah, so at the moment, I've got two casual positions that aren't related to my own research. So one of them is a research academic position. But that's on, I'm actually doing freshwater invertebrates. And then I'm also managing my colleges assets. So our vessels, our field gear and all of that kind of thing. And doing that, and then, yeah, management of systems and safety inductions and things like that. So yeah, really good for experience and learning new skills and things like that. And then, yeah, applying for postdocs and things like that as well.

1:41:00 Gotcha. Good. So like the postdoc, that would be part of the fun, like if you got funding, it'd be a postdoc at university, hopefully in the same area. So ideally, I would find my own kind of grant that would cover a salary for me. And then I could kind of design my own postdoctoral research. But there's a place in Darwin that has had a couple of not so much sharky positions come up, but I could potentially divert them in that direction, maybe in a couple of years. So we'll see. Okay. Yeah, okay. I like the plan. Yeah. Well, sometimes you have to go on these circuitous directions, circle around to get where you want to go. I mean, I've certainly done it most. I think Andrew, almost everybody we've had the show, including yourself, we've had to go off in these tangents, let's say, to eventually get back to doing what we want to do.

1:41:52 But I think if you learn skills and learn stuff along the way, it all helps later on. I did, I did science communication for 16 years before I got a job in science communication on my own. Hopefully won't take you that long. But that's no look, I think it's just it's it's one of those, it's one of those careers where people don't realize how hard it is, you know, you do all of this work to get yourself into this position. But then you don't really realize until you're in this position that it is quite hard than to secure yourself a permanent role. So yeah, everyone that is in their early career, don't fret. It's not just happening to you. It literally happens to everyone. Everyone, everyone knows through Andrew and I can testify that we're, let's say a little older than Julie.

1:42:37 And also, like, I mean, think about every episode that we've that we've done has had someone who has had a very different path, you know, meandering in and out of shark science doesn't matter how long you've been doing it or how or how short you've been doing it. It's everybody has to go. Everybody doesn't have to go through it. But everybody goes tends to go through it just because the way that it's built. I think you just have to be. And Julie, you can kind of attest this, you just have to be adaptive to the process and keep looking out and keep being like a bit stubborn and saying, hey, I'm not going to give up on this dream. I'm going to continue to do it. And that could be six months from now, a year from now, two years or three years or more. But if you're stubborn enough, like I was, you know, you'll get in and you'll figure it out.

1:43:22 Right. So I think that's I think that's great. I also think we're in like, you know, Julie, you're at that age where you've seen some people really make a career, you know, through creating content and and, you know, and be able to have some of their bills kind of paid through that. Like, have you have you seen have you seen people do that, like within your own circles or whether it be within shark science or other ways so that you can or have you thought about doing something like that as a way to pay the bills and also do the research that you want? Yeah, I've not I've not so much seen it in my own circles, but certainly extended circles. There's certainly people that I know have done that. I've been thinking about it actually a fair bit lately, not so much just in shark science, but I've got so many other passions like a wild shark.

1:44:10 I've got so many other passions like wildlife rescue, creating habitat, climate change, all of those kinds of things. So I have been thinking more about content creation lately. But it's just such a I think I think it's just such a hard thing to start doing because you're making yourself so vulnerable by putting yourself out there like that. So it's something that I'm thinking about whether or not I'll get into it. That'll just be having to be brave. No, I mean, it's true. I know a lot of scientists who get into this and who do content creation, including myself. And you worry about what people what other scientists are going to think in future and potential future employers, universities, institutes that you want to work with that may or may not have a good outlook on social media and science communication, and especially the way it goes.

1:45:06 You know, some people are very scientific and educational and they'd like to talk about their science and keep it that way and stay out of sort of controversial potential controversial takes, you know, and keep it as professional as possible. And I feel like that kind of works a lot in a way. I think it's when you get sort of the opinions and and, you know, political controversies, controversies, where that could go either way, you know, with with an institute, you know, but but I mean, we're in a creator economy worldwide, where it's like, you know, I think in the US was like $3.5 billion people made from the creator economy. Now, obviously, that's not all science content creators. But I think there is an increase in that. I think we're starting to see that. And I think it just goes with personality and being putting yourself out there and being able to share and knowing that, to be honest, that's just as good of a career as as any, you know, and you're still and you can still do your science, you know, if you can fund your own science.

1:46:06 And that'd be great. I feel like that's where a lot of people are going to try. And I feel like we need to put together some workshops to be able to have people, you know, understand like what that takes, you know, from people who are already doing if they're willing to share and stuff like that. So I think that's that becomes an interesting aspect of sharing and being transparent of what's really like, and yeah, the difficulties and the challenges, right? Yeah, and I think it's almost like a responsibility that we have as highly informed, educated people to share information that is actually factually correct. And there are so many people out there that cannot say that of themselves.

1:46:46 True. That's true. I say the biggest the biggest hurdle and this has been it's still even today with all the social media stuff has been like throughout my career is that people being able to communicate to the average person because not everybody's a scientist. Now, everybody's had statistics or chemistry or whatever or knows the jargon and too often we've had this talk before. So is that in the future, like now you've got to be able to communicate simple, you know, you obviously have an interest in looking at these little is that what you'd like to concentrate on scientific? You know what I'm talking about? And he's describing the average person has discovered new populations. Is that where your research topics are headed? And so I think communicating to the average person and you know, you know, I don't mean talking down to him or making it simple, but just talk to him in layman's terms, really.

1:47:44 Yeah, and certainly real way that we're going to start actually having impact. You know, we do the science, but if we're only communicating it to other scientists, we're never going to have actual people on on country on board and knowing what to do. Exactly. I got to ask you here just one more question. Another question here before we go is like what? So you just came back from Sharks International. I know we saw each other there, but that was your first Sharks International, correct? Yeah. What was your impression? How was your voice like? I loved it. It was a little overwhelming because there's so, so, so many people. But yeah, 850 is crazy. Wow. Yeah. So it was definitely the biggest conference I've ever been to.

1:48:29 And yeah, for me, it was like a roller coaster of emotions. I feel like probably other early career people were probably in the same boat where some days you're feeling like really motivated and you know what's steps to take next. And then other days you're like, wow, all these people are doing really cool stuff and I'm currently just doing nothing. But all in all, it was, you know, I've come back refreshed and I've met heaps of people and I have ideas of what I can be doing. And just being able to be there and like hear from people who normally wouldn't really be able to get their voice out there. Yeah, it was amazing. I learned heaps had the best time.

1:49:15 Yeah, I think so. Just thanks for having me back. Yeah, no, great. Thank you for coming on and congratulations again. Congratulations. And the next time we'll have you on, I'm sure we'll be talking about all the wonderful things you've been doing in the meantime. And we appreciate all the work you do. And going out into the unknown where some people will not go and and being able to study these these amazing sharks and in these amazing environments. So we really appreciate you coming on and sharing that with us. Yeah, and I just give you all. Yeah, I give one last plug like check out the the episode that we're going to be doing. Yeah, and I just give you all. Yeah, I give one last plug like check out the the episode with Julia on the river sharks on the my YouTube channel. Law Shark Guy searching for law sharks extinct or alive. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Thank you for joining us on today's episode of the Beyond just podcast. Dave, what did you think like, you know, coming from a lot of different things that you've done, you know, you're going to be able to do that.

1:50:05 Thanks for joining us on today's episode of the Beyond just podcast. Dave, what did you think like, you know, coming from, you know, somebody you met somebody you worked with in the environment while she's doing her PhD, it must be nice to see her not only achieve the PhD, but you know, to be able to discover a new population of sharks, you know, that's that's a that's pretty cool. That's a pretty big thing. Like when you've just first starting out your career, right? Oh, yeah, no, as I kind of said during the during the episodes, like, you know, she worked on something, you know, her really thanks to her advisor, Pete kind, you know, she worked on something nobody else really worked on. There's a few there's been a few people, you know, Pete was really the guy Pete was really the pioneer in the whole field as far as with those river sharks and really laid the groundwork and she came in and took over the project that Pete was running. And of course, he was her supervisor.

1:50:59 But you know, really kind of like was working with these little known species. And she said, you know, she was going places where most people won't go because it's a hard I've been there. It's a hard environment to work into, you know, just, you know, we talked a lot about the crocodiles in the episode, but you got other things. It's just you've got it's just it's a it's a hard, it's a harsh environment. There's just not a lot of yeah, it is there. If you get into trouble, there's really nobody coming even though you're in Australia, there's really no one coming right away to for help. You know, you got to be efficient. You got to you got to kind of be be always be aware of what's going on. And and so she definitely has that that that gene to want to do that. And you just see it. You see it with her with her with her research. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty incredible to be able to see that to be able to be a part of that. And for her, like, you know, she seems like she's following in your footsteps, you know, your career first steps looking at she's interested in taxonomy. She's interested in in in searching for these lost sharks and in representing those sharks that are not really represented or not much.

1:52:06 Known about. I feel like that's that's a really interesting career to follow. But there's some challenges with that. Right, Dave? Like there's, you know, funding is difficult to look for that. And for those for those who are, you know, as we give that that, you know, we've always give that that that advice of like looking for something new and discovering something new, how does that work with funding when funding is not often found, like, how do you make a case for looking for something new in the first? You've done a project where you're looking for something new. In the first, you've done it before. How do you do that? And how do a lot of these younger people do that? You know, it's the easy route just to take some that whether they're funding the more difficult route, which is what I've taken.

1:52:48 You just you just grovel around trying to you just pull a little bit here, a little bit there. I was fortunate to got on, you know, I've been connected with the Save Our Seas Foundation, which is huge in terms of supporting this type of research. This curtain thing telling the story about these little law sharks, it was really amazing and doing the storytelling thing, as I've mentioned, for me, as kind of a new area, but it's kind of it's been new skill, new thing I've been learning about working with you and working with Denise Sotomayor. But I also want to say, like, you know, the people I have in there, the feature like, like Julia here, Adriana Savanna, Adriana Pestana, who's been on the podcast, also Naya Simone, who's been on the next episode.

1:53:30 You know, they weren't just sort of random people. These are people that I know, and I know they have that little flair for looking for little known lost shark species. And so they're kind of people, they're people I kind of knew from, you know, just through my through my just certain travels and everything. And so they were kind of like, I wanted to work with them because I knew they'd do a good job. And so and so that was really kind of they already had that that flair for that law shark exploration thing. And so it was good. It was good working with them. And Julie was terrific to work with in the field as well as Adriana and Naya. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, it was a great episode. I really loved it. It was great to catch up with with Julia. We'll definitely catch up with her again. And we thank Julia. We'll put her socials in the show notes so you can get a hold of that.

1:54:17 But we want to thank everybody for listening to this episode of the how to protect the ocean. Never mind. But before we go, Dave, if people want to get ahold of you, how would they do so? Go to you can find me at law shark guy on Instagram and please go to the YouTube channel at law shark guy. Please check out the series searching for law sharks extinct or live episode five. The River Sharks has features. Julia, please subscribe. If you like the content and there would be more content coming soon. And of course, if you want to interact with us at any point, you can also go to the beyond jobs pod on not only on YouTube, but also on Instagram. We'd love to hear from you on these episodes. We're getting comments from your last episode about what people want to hear. So that'll be a lot of fun when we do that in the future. But thank you very much for joining us, everybody. This has been another wonderful episode of the beyond jobs podcast. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.