What Does a Camera Have to Do With Saving Sharks?

1:00:22 On today's episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast, we're going to be talking to Manique Fallows. You've probably heard the name Fallows before because we've had Chris Fallows, her husband, on the podcast before talking about great whites and Air Jaws and photography. And Manique's story is unique and just as interesting as Chris's. She is into photography, she's into writing books, and it was such a pleasure to be able to talk to her that we want to share that interview with you. So let's start the show. Hey everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. I'm your co-host, Angelo, and here with my co-host, Dr. David Ebert. Dave, this is fun. This is like the first husband and wife team that we've interviewed on multiple episodes by themselves.

1:01:07 So Manique being on the podcast, why were you like, we were adamant about having it. Why don't you tell us the reasons why you wanted to have Manique on the podcast? Well, we have, which is not very common when we come across husband and wife teams. The only one we've really had is Colin and Michelle who have been on the program. But they're both in shark research. Whereas this was a little different. We've had Chris Fallows has been on the show and he's well known internationally for taking, for filming flying white sharks is all safe around South Africa. And he's well known in the shark week world. He's did that for many, many years. And now he's gotten off into some other stuff. Well, kind of the, his partner, the whole thing is wife, Manique.

1:01:50 You see her name pop up here and there, but we really didn't know. I didn't really know too much about her. And I thought, and she's writing shark books and everything. And I think we thought like, Hey, let's have her come on the show and share her story. And wow, I think we got a, this could be a heck of a good story. I think we're going to hear that. I think so. I think so. It's going to be an amazing story because just like, I think what, and we'll talk about it in a bit, but I think what's interesting is her approach. She came with the tennis background, professional tennis background. So an athletic background, you know, professional level. And then having that transfer over. So we're going to hear all about that teasing him a little bit. But here's the interview with Manique fouls, talking about her journey into studying and working with sharks.

1:02:34 Enjoy. And we'll talk to you after. Hey, Manique. Welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast. Are you ready to talk about sharks? Hey, Andrea, how's it Dave? I'm so ready because I get to talk about my two favorite things with you guys. And in no particular order, the first one is our dogs and the second one is sharks. So we can get down with that. I love that. I love that. Awesome. Well, I want to welcome everyone back to another episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. We have a very special guest. Many of you know Chris fouls is a world renowned wildlife photographer whose images of breaching white sharks have been featured internationally in major media. But you may not be as familiar with his wife and partner, Monique fouls, who has worked with Chris on white sharks at Seal Island in Falls Bay near Cape Town, South Africa for 22 years as a pioneering eco tourism owner operator, boat captain, photographer, field researcher.

1:03:27 Monique has logged thousands of days on the water working with white sharks collecting data that her and Chris have contributed to over 20 scientific publications. She's also assisted Chris with his photographic work and spent hundreds of days a year at sea. Her work with Discovery Channel film crews has given Monique an opportunity to work with white sharks around the world in New Zealand, California, Massachusetts and elsewhere. In addition to her marine work, Monique spends months a year in the wilds of Africa photographing the econics most iconic species and she's visited all seven continents on multiple occasions. Monique's extensive field work in the field has given her a deep commitment to inspire future generations to protect these fragile environments. Interestingly, Monique and Chris's dogs, Sandy, Lucy and Brownie have accompanied them each day to seek encountering iconic wildlife species along the way.

1:04:15 It was through these dogs that inspired her first book, Sandy and the Salty Sea Dogs, that was published in 2024. Her second book, titled "Falls Bay Adventure and Lucy and the Great White Sharks" is due to be published in July of 2026, which is just a week or two away from this recording. So we thought this would be a great opportunity to have Monique come on the podcast to share her story, to share her journey, and to get to know her a lot better. And so with that, Monique, welcome to the show. Thank you, Dave, and thanks for the great introduction. You're welcome. So the first question I have is, how did you get interested in the marine environment, the sea, and all that fun stuff?

1:04:56 It's probably not the answer you're going to expect, it may be the answer that most people don't give. And it was all to do with Chris, because before I met Chris, I had never been on a boat before. I knew absolutely nothing about sharks. If I could say I probably had a slightly negative feeling toward sharks, but I thought there was only one great shark in the world, and that was a great white. So that is how green I was. And I'd never been to the bush before, but I really loved animals. So we did, you know, I had that affliction to wildlife and to the outdoors and to animals. And I basically was a professional tennis player when we first met.

1:05:39 So from, let's say, about two years old, my whole life was tennis. And when I met Chris, I was just about to turn 21. And unfortunately, I'd gotten to that point where I wanted to be a professional tennis player. But kind of the writing was on the wall where I wasn't going to make it. So, you know, I had obviously a big life decision to make. And ultimately, I decided that my mom and dad couldn't keep paying for me to play on the tour all the time. And it was time to make a change. So I didn't give up tennis for Chris, but I think I gave up because it was easier because I met Chris, to be honest. And then I was in the situation where I knew I had no idea what I was going to do.

1:06:21 You know, I'd only know tennis my whole life and it was very daunting, you know, trying to set up, you know, take a complete different direction in my life. And Chris said to me, you know what, just take it easy. Why don't you come out on the boat with me? Just have some fun. We can look at some sharks. We can, you know, just spend some time together and then you can decide and see where you want to go. And two amazing things happened again in no particular order. But I fell in love with Chris and I also fell in love with sharks. And, you know, that that really just started my journey into the most incredible life that we've had together. Not just with great white sharks, but with a huge variety of marine wildlife and also wildlife around the world and in Africa.

1:07:06 So it brings up a couple of questions. One is obviously you're from South Africa. Where did you what part of South Africa did you grow up in? So originally from Cape Town. So the ocean was right on my doorstep, but it's still I think I was I was all consumed in tennis. So I never I never had the opportunities to explore that side of the world. But yeah, so in Cape Town. Can you talk a little bit? Can you just talk a little bit about that commitment for tennis? I had friends who went to university for tennis and like they were always playing like after school, before school, like it is quite the commitment as an individual because it's an individual. A lot of times it's an individual sport.

1:07:46 What's that that commitment like throughout a childhood? You know, how difficult it is to stay committed, especially to to get too close or at that level of professional tennis. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was all consuming. It was my entire life. I wouldn't say I didn't have a childhood because, you know, I did. But, you know, school holidays were were spent traveling around the country and going and playing tennis tournaments. And after school, I would say from eight years old, I was already training four hours a day. And then when I was really getting into it in training periods, it would be six hours on the court and then another two hours of conditioning training.

1:08:26 So it was I mean, I didn't really think about it, to be honest, because it was my passion. And I had very specific goals in mind. And I think my character is that I'm a I'm a very, very hardworking person. I'm very dedicated and I don't mind suffering if that makes any sense. So, yeah. So is that is that I was good to do all of that. You know, I was I was good to do all of that. But, you know, at the end of the day, I got I got to 20 and I dedicated, you know, fully 12 years of, you know, a very, very serious tennis with a little bit of schoolwork. There wasn't much to tennis.

1:09:07 And I got to end of the day and it was finished and there was nothing there. Whereas if you think about it, it takes 12 years to become a doctor. And it doesn't matter if you first in your class or your last in your class, you're still a doctor. So, you know, all the ingredients were there to make it successful. And so much went into it. But the end of the day, you know, I thought it came to nothing. But actually, you know, now I can look back in hindsight and there's so many life lessons that I learned from tennis. So it was dealing with pressure, you know, work ethic, discipline, you know, you know, things that equip you really well in life. And I know that all those lessons that I learned with tennis have helped us to become a success together. So I'm really proud that I could at least take that from what was a failure and into something that's been really positive in my life.

1:09:58 I'm glad I'm glad you you had the chance to reflect on that because I see that I got coach. I coach hockey at, you know, House League level and I coach I've coached American football at the rep level. And and you see the the kids who want it badly, like want to play at that higher level. There's a difference in their thought process and how they approach, you know, the game and how they approach life is like, OK, I'm ready to work. If I want this, I'm ready to work for it. If I if I don't want it, I'm not going to work for it. But if I really want this, I'm ready to work for it. And this is what I wanted to kind of get from you is is being able to reflect back and be like, OK, yeah, this is I had a really good I had a good time. Obviously, there's some sacrifices, but, you know, you had a great career. You you almost made it. It was close. But the discipline that you learn, the hard work that pays off and and all this stuff, even though your overall goal was, you know, quote unquote, a failure, you still got so much out of it and your character from then.

1:10:57 And then like and then when you when when that switch, like I said, I know a lot of athletes in their 20s when say things don't work out or they've come to the end of their their athletic career for one reason or another. They have trouble picking up something next because they they're so used to dedicating something, you know, like to a sport or to. Yeah, they had a purpose. When you when you met Chris, like, did you have a did you have something in mind before you met Chris and before you were introduced to this sort of new adventure that you were taking? And if you did, like, what was that? And and or was it was it with Chris? And that's how you approached the same way you approached tennis. You approached this this new adventure.

1:11:40 Yeah, so I didn't have another plan. And I think that was the scary thing. And that's when I said, you know, I didn't I didn't give up tennis for Chris, I gave up tennis, partly because of Chris, because I think he he showed me that you could have something else in life. It didn't have to just be tennis. So, you know, trying to to get over that, that that scary part of what is next. That's where you really helped me. And and I think where I was really lucky is, so you guys have spoken to Chris and you know how passionate he is about sharks. So he's very infectious. So before I even saw my first great white shark, yeah, I mean, obviously, I was excited, you know, but very, very, very quickly, as I said, I fell in love with sharks as well. So I was able to pick up on a new passion.

1:12:27 And, you know, you know, pretty early into stopping playing tennis. And I think that made a big difference in my life, because I think if I didn't have something that I was really because because passion drives me, even if it's in a quiet way, you know, I have to have something that that I'm excited about and getting up in the morning and want things that I want to work towards and goals and challenges and achieving things. So I was lucky that I could transition into something that would give that to me. So, you know, I yeah, I mean, I just ended up having the most incredible life that continues to get incredible as we go, you know, I got asked one question. Does Chris play tennis?

1:13:07 That's a raw nerve because he does. And he's very competitive. So we. And he gets a many levels, not at my level, but he's very good at mind games. So that's what he gets me. So we don't play very often anymore because it gets about me. Did you guys have any time? Did you happen to meet on a tennis court when you guys met? No, so this is actually another really bizarre answer. But the two of us actually made it a funeral. So I know I know I'm not I'm laughing. I'm laughing. But it's a shame. Sadly, you know, I'm mutual friend that passed away. It was a family member of mine and was Chris's next door neighbor. Graham had a great sense of humor. And he was he was actually very fond of both of us.

1:13:54 But we because of my tennis and because I was away all the time, our paths never crossed. So, you know, my grand new Chris, my Chris's mom, you my mom and dad, it was all this crossover. But the two of us had never had never met before. So a little bit of a strange meeting. But, you know, it was it was an amazing start to a sad, sad end. Yeah, yeah. That's good. We know we've had people out there, you know, not at your level, but a lot of college athletes that have gone into the shark world and stuff. And I think we wanted them to. I wrestled through college and the skills I know we everyone who have had on the show and we talked about having just a special like athlete show sometime about just the traits you pick up like discipline, commitment, passion and stuff.

1:14:41 You know, because your your athletic career typically is going to end in your 20s for the most part. Yeah. If you're rare, if you can get a lifespan. Yeah. And so but those but those traits that you touched on a lot of those just now with your commitment to tennis, it carries over into whatever profession you go into. And those are skills that are, you know, you have to learn like through early growing up and stuff. Really, I think. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm very I'm very I'm very grateful to tennis for that. And it took me a little while to get to that point to realize what I did get from it. But it was a huge amount. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure growing up when you're doing tennis when you're young, when you're in your early teens, you probably never imagined you're going to be traveling around the world looking for sharks.

1:15:26 I still think about it. And I think that's kind of crazy. That's a great story. Actually, just how that whole trajectory, how you went from doing one thing you were so committed to now going to this whole other whole other. Yeah. And I actually I like to share that story about not knowing anything about sharks and being so green that I've never been on a boat before because what it allowed me to do is that when I did go out there, I didn't have any preconceived ideas about sharks, you know, it's not that I get studied them and read textbooks and there was, you know, information that was ingrained in there that should be about sharks. I learned by what I saw being in the field and spending time with them. And I didn't question anything. So so everything that I learned was directly from the sharks themselves, which I think is quite a unique place to be because you can see it face value what they are, who they are, what they're doing and not have little voices in your background telling me, no, it shouldn't be this or they can't do that or whatever. So it was a very real experience that I had with them.

1:16:26 What was your the first was the first when you first time you went out with Chris took you out and you saw a white shark, what was your reaction? What do you think? What you didn't see a shark the first time we went out. But that's okay. I was willing to hang in there. So actually the first the first time I saw a great white was one breaching on a decoy. So it happened in, you know, the blink of an eye. And I don't know if I really saw it because it happened so far. So I think that was the first time I saw a great white. But then the second time was actually a shark coming up to the boat. And yeah, I mean, it's just so special to see them as they they come up really slowly to the boat.

1:17:13 They gently cruise around and they have an incredible presence about them. So with a lot of prepped from Chris's passion, I was ready to see them. And yeah, I was in total all just, yeah, just completely blown away by seeing them. And so I know Cape Town is a big kind of a lot of I mean, I lived in Cape Town for years and it was just I know like surfing sailing water. Did you do anything that go to the you must have gone to the beach or something. Did you ever think about sharks? I'm actually I'm afraid of waves. I don't know why. So I would kind of go into the water and just I'm happy in the water, but not big waves. So I would just dunk myself and then run out. But no water sport. So I would just go into the water and just go into the water.

1:18:02 What's nothing like that. So like when I tell you I was green, I was I was so green. It's hard to believe he grew up in Cape Town, but that's just my reminiscing because it was just such a water sport activity. Yeah. Go on like surfing. Say I was just all it's that's all stuff I remember doing besides sharks. Yeah. Yeah. I think I was on the tennis court way too much. Probably. Yeah. I think it's a really good perspective though, too, because being on the tennis court so much being like living in a coastal city and not necessarily going to the ocean a lot. I'm sure there are there are a lot of people who are like that who live in Cape Town or live in places all over the world that don't. I think on this show we always think oh well yeah of course if you're along the coast you're in the ocean all the time and I think it's interesting like what was your you said you know you had a slightly sort of negative outlook on sharks in general like growing up in a place like Cape Town.

1:18:53 You know, I'm sure sharks are like where sharks talked about a lot like just in your natural life like what is the like from your perspective from your experience like what was the overall outlook on you know even great white sharks which is what you thought like that's pretty much all there is in there like what was your like what was the overall look from you and the people you interacted with. It was that sharks were dangerous. That's that's what I would hear all the time. So, you know, I'm not delving deep into the subject in the filters that's that's what was coming through to me. So I didn't spend a lot of time thinking about it because you know as Dave was asking I didn't spend time in the ocean. So that's probably why also wasn't.

1:19:35 It exposed it that much but yeah definitely that sharks were dangerous. So we'll get to it but that was one of the big reasons for writing the Lucy and the great white shark book is because of the fear of sharks. Right. And then when you met Chris and Chris is telling you hey the sharks are amazing like they're really cool. You got to come out and see this. Were you thinking like this guy's just crazy to think that like after everybody else telling me that sharks are dangerous and the whole perception and then here is Chris is like going and taking photographs and interacting with sharks. You know obviously not in the water anything but seeing the sharks like he's got to be nuts. That's what I would think. I was I was surprised because you know when we met at the funeral so it was at the wake afterwards he came up to me and you know he was chatting and he said what it what do you do and and I said well I'm a professional tennis player and that always would stop people on the track.

1:20:27 It was like a nice little card you know and I was always expecting like the usual response. You know I'm an accountant or I'm a this or that and I was kind of waiting for that and then he's like well I work with great white sharks and then I was like oh. I was so different you know I didn't think he was crazy I was just like oh my gosh that is really different like you know that that's that's what struck me because I think I was used to also being the different one doing something different and it was nice to connect with someone who's also doing something completely different and not mainstream so yeah so that to me was great. Yeah for sure that's that's always a show stopper I can yeah I can speak from Chris's perspective on that one that that's always a good it's a good it's a good line it's a good line when you're young was.

1:21:11 It was me initially. So yeah. Yeah so so you start going out with Chris and and just kind of experience the white shark and and everything and and so it's just sort of evolve while you're going out there thinking like hey I can contribute here and do some stuff and that was it's how that whole thing come about. So you know I think it goes to understanding that Chris is a very generous person and he he loves to share things especially experiences so he was very keen for me to come out and see his world and share it and then I just think when you could see that you know I was really getting into it and really enjoying it and I didn't mind getting up early in the morning and I didn't mind.

1:21:54 You know getting wet on the board with all the sea spray and you know that you know that I was pretty pretty game to most things I think he just wanted to share it with me and I think as our relationship sort of evolved it just always been on the boat and be with the sharks was just it was just always was always with us and and I think you know I mean we've been working together our entire life that we that we've known each other and I think the fact that we can work together is because we started off from the very beginning. So you know the navigation was always he's always the big ideas guy he's going out there he's got all the initiative he's you know always thinking on new things that he could do and trying new things and I'm kind of like the nuts and bolts that comes behind and sort of like puts it all together you know so he he has strengths that I don't have and then I have strengths that that that he doesn't have and and I think the great thing is that when we are there we not competing with each other we complementing each other and I think that's why I think it's a very good thing to be able to do that and I think that's why we're very very happy with how we've had such a such a great relationship and why we've also been had such a great working relationship as well because we both bring different things to the party and and I'm so happy for Chris to you know to you know to be the guy on on you know front and center you know he's he speaks so well and you know he's got the pressure of taking the photographs and I've got the pressure of making sure the boats in the right place or that the sharks you know how I'm handing the bait right and yeah so I just I just think we complement very well.

1:23:24 Chris already had Chris already been out there a bit on his white shark stuff when you guys met he was already sort of a little bit established with doing some of the shark week stuff. So I'm I'm I missed I missed the first few years so he was you know he saw the breaching sharks at Seal Island for the first time in 1996 and then we met in 1999 and 2000 was my first season so I probably missed the first five years but you know the business was in its infancy. So I was in the beginning stages of that and the other amazing thing is you know at Seal Island like everybody now knows about the predation about the sharks hunting the seals they knew we know now that it's the young of the year seal that gets attacked you know nearly 90% of the time what the weather conditions are all of that but when we were out there in those early years nobody knew anything about it.

1:24:15 So we had this incredible opportunity of having an open book in front of us and it was up to us to record all that data and then start seeing the patterns and basically learn the incredible things that were happening at Seal Island and when I look back on it now you know there's not many people in the world that have that opportunity that from almost from day one as I said you there to write that story and you there to make those observations and try and learn what's happening. So it's one of probably that's going to be the most part of thing in my whole life that we were there at that time and we were able to to kind of navigate what was actually happening at Seal Island. You actually are you're you operate the boat you're like basically the boat captain.

1:24:59 Yes, so I mean so you so Chris is taking the photograph so someone has to be dropped. So that's me. And how did it do is that just learn by trial pretty much which mostly both the driving is just yeah. Yeah. And a lot of instruction and shouting from Chris sometimes to make sure it's absolutely right. But I don't mind that. No, but there was just a product of being out there and there was a need for it. So I was I was happy to step on and learn and do what what we needed to do. Well, you've really got a long way from like playing tennis and now you're operating boats and out filming great white sharks. That's a I think that's going to be definitely one of the most career changes. I think Andrew have had on anybody have any of our guests on here because most you know, usually most people like when their kids or some get some kind of an interest or some it was the marine environment. Maybe not sharks but some of the mariner or the outdoors and stuff and like you're like playing tennis your whole life and now you're operating a boat and looking at it.

1:25:56 These big fish women are when you say that does sound crazy and it was not planned at all. Yeah. Yeah. I mean your part specially you're just thinking like I'm gonna be playing on the tennis circuit all this time. Yeah. So out so you got into doing this whole thing and you and so it's been it's been an amazing journey for you on this on this whole thing. And so you sound you had to learn a lot of these skills. Is this where you're sort of your tennis discipline came in? Absolutely. Yeah. And and also, you know, discipline hard work, but suffering is quite a key word because unfortunately, I get seasick and even to this day, I still it still gets me and it's it's certain conditions now but the first couple years that I was going out to see with Chris, I would say 50% of the time I was I was seasick.

1:26:45 But I knew that the rewards were we're good. So I was happy. I was happy to keep going. But yeah, I definitely did need to draw on all the things that I learned from tennis because it's the same thing, you know, getting up at five o'clock every morning for seven days a week and just being bone tired. I'm going to see is pretty physically demanding, you know, so I think if I didn't have that background of what I went through with tennis, I probably would not have survived trying to keep up with Chris, if I'm honest. Right. You're going to things you're going on the winter time a lot of times to do the filming, which is not the best time to be out in Falls Bay at times. No, it's freezing cold, big northwester winds, but also beautiful days in between.

1:27:31 So it wasn't all hard. There were some incredible days as well. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I was contrast after the summer days out there, which really, really nice on the on the way out there. Yeah. No sharks aren't around the same to the same degree. Yeah. But I think I think people don't some people may may not realize like when you if you suffer I've I've had seasickness, you know, I'd at sea in some pretty heavy, heavy waves. It seems like it happens. I'm not sure Dave, if you've ever had it, but it seems like it happens to everyone at some point in time for the other day. I always had respect a lot of respect for those that happened every single time. I knew people who went out every time they went out, they would get sick and then they were okay. Once they got sick, they were fine and they'd be able to get over.

1:28:13 Some people never got over. My wife will go scuba diving with me even though she gets seasick. And I just my goal is just to get her in the water is and get her down as fast as possible so that as possible, she doesn't get sick. But like the the the fortitude takes like to do that for a living and to understand that yeah, I'm probably going to get sick or 50% of the time be sick or there's a chance, a higher chance that normal that I'm going to not feel well when I'm out there to do that as part of your job. It does as you mentioned some suffering and to get past that suffering. I think that's a some people who are listening to this may or may not have been on it on boats in time, but it's it's it's. Very difficult. You got the sun that's beating down on you a lot of times the wind can tire you out being in the being out at sea is extremely tiring. If you're in waves, your your muscles are constantly contracting and you know, trying to try and just balance on whatever boat at the smaller the boat, the harder it is to kind of do that. So you're physically and emotionally tired at the end of at the end of these types of things. I just want to make sure people understand like how difficult it can be.

1:29:13 Especially if you're going out like you would go out what four or five times a week is that what you guys were doing? We would go out with the permitting. So if we had good weather and we had seven good days in a row, it would be seven days in a row. Yeah. So you know when when our business first started, the two of us did everything. You know, we ran the boat. We did the bookings. We did the accounting. We made the sandwiches. We caught the bait. So yeah, I mean, it was it was I don't want to use the relate the word relentless because that's negative, but it was. I mean, it was it was a commitment. But it was a commitment. But yeah, I mean, as I said before, you know, the rewards of the things that we experienced out there, the things that we saw the sharks that we got to know like I wasn't willing to give up on that just because I was seasick or it was hard.

1:30:00 Like I know that you're not going to get to experience the kind of things that we did unless you go through something and I wanted to do it. So yeah. Well, I think is that the challenges of going out there and going every day going early taking care of everything. And then of course, we come in with people don't think about when you come in. There's nobody taking care of your boat, cleaning up the boat, cleaning up the gear, which you have to do. That's a couple hours easily. Yeah, fixing the boat and then the next day you got to go back out and do it again. Yeah. Yeah. And we would still come back and then have work in the office as well at home and do that side of things. And the house probably wasn't very clean, but that's okay.

1:30:41 You know, going out and seeing. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. So I got to ask you this because being married and going out and working 24 seven something like that. I mean, you're working 24 seven sometimes. How does that get to be like, because you ever get like have to have like some I need some time downtime or anything when you're just always together like that? I know a lot of people ask us that and honestly, like neither of us really feel that way. You know, we we are so many things to each other. But I do make sure we get things from other people, you know, like spending time with friends and different energies from different people. So two of us just yeah, we just we just fit so so well. And I mean, we do fight and healthy debates is what we call it.

1:31:30 And that's that's really good because like I feel like I can say exactly what I want to say. And Chris can say what he wants to say. We usually get to the right answer at the end of the day, but I think where the joy comes in is that when you are especially with the natural world and wildlife and you you see incredible things and you having these amazing experiences when you sharing it with someone who you know is a feeling it on the same level you are and feels the same way and thinks the same way that experience is heightened to a level that you're not going to get on your own. And so I just think we just we just so crave those highs together. And that's kind of what makes us who we are as a couple. So yeah, a lot of time together. But it's it's I don't know. It doesn't feel like it's a problem ever.

1:32:14 Yeah. There are a couple of people like Michelle Heiple and Colin Sinfendorf have been married for 30 years now. And they're worked together closely and everything like that. And you just I just kind of wonder, like, how's that workout? I don't think it works too well with me. But that's like, hey, everybody's different. Everybody's different. Yeah, everyone's different. Yeah, you just need that time. So you got it. So you've had this that you've been traveling around. I know the last few years, especially you guys have been doing a lot more like going to terrestrial stuff with elephants and different types of. Yeah. Well, just wildlife. So yeah, I mean, we have always gone to the bush. So, you know, the white shark season was always at six to eight month period. And then as soon as you know, we'd be finished with that season, we would be off to the bush. So we've always had that love as well. And again, that was something that cross shared with me.

1:33:10 And I embraced 100% as well. And I think, you know, the whole journey with losing the white sharks, I mean, the negatives are very, very high. But if we have to put a positive spin on it, it's opened the door to new challenges and different things to do. And, you know, not not running a business full time like that. And, you know, you know, being at sea for that, you know, that many months of the year, we still love wildlife. So we just go and we spend more and more time traveling to other places. And, you know, with Christmas photography, there's certain places he loves to go to get certain images. So, you know, that's that's become a new direction in our life. And, you know, focusing on his photography has been fantastic as well. Like I said, it's a new challenge and we love new challenges.

1:33:56 And I think that's what just really keeps pushing us all the time. Yeah, that's great. I mean, it's good. It's good. I know it's like you get that. I think you just hit a key thing that the new challenges you get along in your career. Because you get doing the same thing over and over. It kind of gets more to me because boring. So I find something new. Yeah. It's really, it's really good. So you guys go ahead. So I was gonna say, and speaking of something new, when did the writing begin? Have you all had you always been writing as you went along? Because you have two children's book, or we've mentioned them before. And then we have salty sea dogs and then we have Lucy in the gray white. Where did that inspiration come from? And at what point did you start to think about?

1:34:37 I've actually always loved to write for some other reasons. I love reading and I love writing. And from the early days working with the sharks, I started a little blog called shark bites. So it was even before the time, you know, that blogs and social media were really a thing. And, you know, I would obviously go and when I see my mom and dad, I'll say, Oh, you know, this is what we saw. And we're getting to know this shark and blah, blah, blah. And my dad said to me, you know, why don't you write about it? So I was like, okay, maybe I can do that. So I started this blog called shark bites. And in the field, in the beginning part, like my subscribers, like I could put them all in the email field.

1:35:18 That's how few they were. But I ended up writing shark bites for let's call it 18 years every month for 18 years. And yeah, and and I think as a writer, when you when you are able to write for me, I have to write what I know. So it was very easy for me to write about seal Island and the sharks who were seeing and the behavior we're seeing because I was seeing that and I and I felt this. It was really important to be able to stay in touch with people that had already been out with us to see sharks, because I understood that our opportunities are opportunities that not everybody has. And I felt it was really important to be able to share that with people, you know, and have that that connection to seal Island to the sharks to nature, you know, whatever it is.

1:36:04 So, so I loved writing with that sole purpose of helping to connect people. And yeah, I love storytelling in terms of sharing the amazing opportunities that that I've had. So that's where I started from, really. Wow. That's really. And so you take your dogs out to see with you. How does that work on the boat? Yes, I remember I said you write what you know. And so Sandy, she's actually the mom of brownie and Lucy and she was a street dog that I rescued. And we didn't realize it. But I we rehomed her and she was pregnant. So she popped, she popped out four puppies and two went across his mom and we kept the other two. And we would go out to see and just like in the book, it's a like a true story. We would come home to a house that was totally destroyed. So the cart was pulled apart and the mattress on our bed, they ate through it three times. And it was a complete it was chaos.

1:37:03 So the solution was, well, let's take the dogs to see and at least if they're with us, they can't destroy the house. And it was actually just incredible from from the very beginning with artists even prompting them. They were so plugged into anything that we would see like super curious. And just I wouldn't say that they they is interaction with the animals, but they are super aware of other living creatures in the ocean. And you know, when I when I saw the interactions between the dogs and whatever wildlife we're seeing, I just thought that's just a wonderful way to help introduce kids to the ocean. And something I'm really passionate about is ecosystems. You know, a lot of people don't even know what ecosystems are, but they're so fascinating because I love the fact that every single animal needs to be present in that ecosystem to make it work.

1:37:56 You take one one out of out of the equation and you start having problems that every single animal is important. And I really wanted to try get that across to people that, hey, that's our team. It's hugely important. Or, you know, dolphins do certain things that make everything work. And and and it's not just the importance of those animals. The other thing that fascinates me is how each animal is built in a certain way to be able to do its job. And I and I love the special things and the you know that each animal has to be able to do the things they do. And it's it's quite a big topic, I think, trying to talk to kids about ecosystems. And I just thought, do it through the eyes of the dogs. You know, kids love dogs. Keep it really fun. And yeah, so the idea was just, you know, grew from that.

1:38:44 OK. Oh, nice. And you still got all three dogs, obviously, still there. Still with you. Yes, we do. When you're traveling to England, trust me, you still take the dogs. I sure you take the dogs with you. Unfortunately, not when we when we go to the national parks and the dogs aren't they aren't allowed in. So so they have to stay behind on those ones. Unfortunately, I wish we could because I think they would have the same reactions to everything else that we see. Of course. You guys travel quite a bit. So I guess you have some kind of a situation like you leave them with your parents or something. Just yeah. So we so we have we we actually had an amazing dog sitter mark who looked after them for almost the whole life.

1:39:28 He sadly passed away actually a couple of years ago. So we're on a bit of a journey to find the new house sitters, but we make sure the dogs are well looked after when we're gone. So it's quite hard to leave that because I can only say that the dogs, the dogs have been absolute magic in our life. You know, they're so part of everything that we do out at sea and you know at home and we don't have kids. So I mean, I know all our maternal and paternal feelings are projected onto the dogs, but yeah, they just incredible little little little furbils. And yeah, we just love doing everything with them. So we're very lucky. I love that. Yeah, I love it. Now, you mentioned and I was just reading on on the about page. I don't remember which one, but there was one dog that I think it was brownie that would get a little seasick or was Lucy Andy.

1:40:15 Sandy would get a little seasick. How long did it take her to get over that? Or does she say, I'm so jealous. I'm certain I'm so jealous. She was like, she had like maybe like six months of seasickness and she's done. Now she's rock solid. That's hilarious. So I wasn't as lucky. But she still was excited to go on the boat every time. Yeah, I mean, sometimes we would give her a break, you know, if it was going to be a little bit rough. But now, I mean, that they've been going to see they 11 and 12 years old now. So they're going to see for a very, very long time. And we cannot get away with trying to get all our stuff together to go to sea. But they know that the boat is on and there is no way that they are staying at home. Yeah, like they really do love it.

1:41:05 You guys still go to sea, though, a part of the time or what sort of percent now. Now you'd still go to sea. You still going out. Yeah. So we've come full circle. You know, we obviously when we were working with the great white sharks and ecotrosum, we had the big commercial boat. But the first boat that we started on, which is white pointers, a small 28 foot catamaran. We always kept that boat. And now that we don't we're not involved in the ecotourism. We're back on a small boat and it's the two of us, three dogs. And we also love taking friends or like minded people out there as well. Just going out there just to experience wildlife.

1:41:45 But, you know, as we've shifted away from working with the white sharks, we have we are still doing amazing things out on the ocean. And obviously the most exciting is the humpback. Humpback whale super groups. So I would say probably for the last six to eight years, we've really been focusing on that very heavily because we are very lucky. We have a permit from the department where we collect tail fin IDs for them as well, which allows us to be out there. And that's really become a new focus for us. So just seeing the resurgence of the humpback whales and documenting that behavior and, you know, just, you know, getting all those population IDs out is it's been it's been a fantastic shift for us.

1:42:29 And then we do quite a lot of work with dolphins as well. So we actually just started to find huge super groups of dusky dolphins. So, you know, we go we look for big schools of common dolphins, dusky dolphins. We go offshore, pilot whales, sperm whales. So we're very lucky that we live in an area where, you know, the ocean is so rich in wildlife. So, yeah, there's plenty of us to see. And then we still do have interactions with sharks. So, you know, off Cape Point, we have maker sharks, we have blue sharks. So I would say whenever the weather's good and we have a good run and, you know, we are on a small boat and we're out there doing what we love. So that part has not has not stopped at all.

1:43:10 Do you do any scuba diving at all? Yes, that was also something I had to learn. But yeah, I actually I'm very once I'm I'm down in the water. I'm very comfortable. So I love being in the water. OK. Oh, nice. Nice. No, no, no bonus for you. So, yeah, you've had this amazing trip with all this stuff and with all these with all these different experiences. Have you had any favorite outside Cape Town and Falls Bay? Is there any place you've traveled to that you really thought, wow, this is really cool. Actually, I'm going to say the central Kalahari, which is in Botswana and it's land, but it's probably one of the most remotest places that you can go to.

1:43:54 So so when we go there, we're in our four by four. We've got all our own water. We've got all our own food and the camp, the campsite that you have. It's a GPS mark. So it's just a patch of dirt which you can go put your tent up and basically a self sufficient. But I just love being out in the wilderness and being far away from people. And it's just Chris and I and just, you know, hearing lions roar at night and getting up early in the morning and going looking to see what we can find and just being really simple. And I think it just takes us back to I can't I don't think you can overestimate how important it is to be simple and how that makes you feel.

1:44:35 So, yeah, I have to say that that's my absolute favorite place. But it's a tough call because there's so many, you know, yeah, yeah. Chris had been buying up some land in both Namibia and South Africa. Yeah. So I think, again, it stems back to our lessons working with the great whites and using them. And, you know, we fought so hard to try and effect change within management and fisheries policies and the top shark boards nets. And we can't physically make those changes. We have to rely on government to make those changes. And I think that that's one of the reasons why we're losing them because we we're seeing problems that we can't fix.

1:45:21 And we desperately going forward our legacy effort. It's very, very important to us that we are able to give back to wildlife or nature or the natural world in some way, because, you know, it's given they've given us our whole life. And I think we understand that unless you actually own a piece of land where you have full control over how can you make a difference? I think that's the best way we can make a difference because we can then do the best ecological practices we can in terms of security, we can do our own security. And I just think we felt that we really wanted to give space to wildlife where it was sanctuary. Preserving habitat is so important. You know, you know, you can start losing animals.

1:46:04 You can maybe bring them back. But once habitat is gone, I think it's very difficult to re-engineer that again. So the habitat preservation part was really important to us. And also wildlife corridors. So our little piece, I mean, it's for a sizable chunk of land, which we just actually today we paid the transfer and stamp duties on the property in Namibia. So we're very excited. So we're going to have a nice drink when we're done. But it's 10,700 hectares, which is it's a large piece of land. But still, if you want to make a big difference, it's still it's, you know, it's it's it's not it's not ideal. But we've bought in an area where we're adding to to an existing wildlife corridors.

1:46:47 So we really believe we're looking for areas where we can add our little pieces that contribute to the greater area. And as I said, you know, like we really want to be able to make a difference. And we feel that when we have control of something, that's where we can actually do something. So when you buy this land, you're not making any changes to it. You're keeping it natural. It stays the same as that corridor. This this particular piece of land that we just bought in southern Namibia, it's been farmed for 100 years. So we're going to have to do quite a lot of rehabilitation on the land to get the grazing to come back. And it's also very arid, arid area. So we are going to also have to look at putting in climate change mitigation. So there's there's going to be a lot of work that's going to be done.

1:47:31 But as you've heard, we are not. Yeah, we're not afraid of a little bit of backbreaking work. So we're up for the challenge. But there is going to be a rehabilitation that's going to be needed. Yeah. What I got to ask, what part of Namibia were you in? It's the Fisher of the Canyon area. Oh, we're on the western side. Yeah. I've been to Namibia multiple times going back into the when I was a graduate student in the 80s. And just a reminder, we didn't have GPS. We had a compass. We had to find our locations. So when you mentioned that, that that kind of hits me like, OK, that's a generational change because that is fortunately for me because I've already used a compass.

1:48:17 Yeah, exactly. I bring that point up. And you can back back me on this. I bring that up. The younger people like you have no idea what I use a compass. And all we had was a compass and a map to go. Yeah, it's it's it's stunning. And the other real big advantage about Namibia, it's got a large amount of free roaming wildlife store. So without us having to introduce, there's a population of leopards, brown hyenas. There are cheetahs, springbok, hemsbok.

1:48:57 So the wildlife is there. And if we can improve on the grazing, then the prey numbers will increase and then the predators start coming in as well. Yeah, I think it's hard. I'm sure you've had this conversation with people, but it's hard for people to believe, like when you're in Namibia, because it's very desert in a lot of areas and you're like in the desert. And particularly like at dawn and dusk, you'll see these the wildlife, like including elephants, brown hyenas, jackals just come out of the desert. Like, you know, like where the heck was this thing? It's it's hard to get people to understand that if you haven't experienced that. Yeah, although the landscape is pretty immense as well. These are huge areas we're talking about. So yeah, and it's always surprising to hear what is actually there because sometimes you look at the new like, you know, there's nothing there.

1:49:47 So on the face of it, I think we've just bought ourselves a rock farm. But there is wildlife in the area. So we are really excited about trying to to help stimulate pseudo habitat for them. Yeah. So that's pretty super. Do you guys know you guys travel outside? I've seen some of your stuff here. And we'll definitely got to post your you and Chris's like websites and stuff because you get amazing. So the amazing photography is that just the places you guys go is amazing. It's like a travel log. Just like where's Chris and Monique this point in the world here. Yeah, I know we're very lucky. I mean, you know, you far away in California, but for us down here in Cape Town, we're pretty accessible to Southern Africa and East Africa.

1:50:35 And, you know, I think the wealth of Africa is the continent of Africa is it's wildlife. You know, we we still we still have it here in good numbers and there's incredible places to visit. So, you know, we just try to make the most of our opportunities of being here. And yeah, we just think we love being the most in nature. Like that's what that's where we have here. So if it's if it's on our small boat with the school of dolphins or we're in a little tent in the middle of nowhere, you know, that's what we love. And we're lucky we have the opportunity to do things we love. And I think that goes back to storytelling, whether it's Christmas photography, it's me writing books or writing blogs or speaking on podcast. It's so important for us that we can share that with other people because I'm very, very aware that it's not accessible to everyone. And there are people that that create that connection.

1:51:24 So I feel a huge responsibility in being able to to provide that that bridge in whatever small way that I can, you know, it's good for humans and it's good for wildlife as well. Yeah. And we're out with your back to your books. Where can you get your book now? Are you able to get it in North America at all? Or which is just in South Africa? So if there are any publishers listening, I'm looking for someone in the US and the UK, but it's Penguin Random House is the publisher and it's available as a hard copy in South Africa. And then you can buy the e-box as well. So that is available on I think it's on Amazon. But if you go to the salty sea dog books website, there's a there's a page where it takes you to different links where you can we can buy the books.

1:52:12 So yeah, so they have it on all the different Amazon's even in Canada. You can buy I think if you want to buy the hard copies, you have to go through South Africa. And then if you want the e-book, you go through Amazon, whether it's UK, Amazon.com or Amazon. It's Yeah, exactly. Yeah, thanks, Andrew. Well, can we talk afterwards? I might have a couple leads for you. I'll give to you and you see if they go anywhere to get them up here. That would be amazing, Dave. Thank you. Yeah, I know South Africa. They used to produce them. I'm not as up on it now, but they used to produce some amazing books, wildlife, particularly wildlife and stuff. And but you couldn't get them in North America, really, or they're really pricey to get. And I don't know why they don't.

1:52:54 So yeah, you know, you when you hear Penguin Random House, you think that's, oh, well, that's everywhere in the world. But all the countries are quite separate. So they seem to just publish within their own territories. And there's not a lot of communication between the two, which is a shame, because I think there are lots of books that are globally relevant. And it would be nice if it were they were easier, easily available. Yeah, absolutely. And there's definitely an audience for natural for books like yours that just inspire kids and stuff or just wildlife books and everything as well. So it's kind of a anyway. Well, we'll see if we can help you out on that step. We'll definitely post your stuff there after the show and stuff. So so where do you see like this amazing life you've been having here going from a tennis star to being a wildlife adventure? Where do you where do you see you see you see yourself going now?

1:53:44 Well, you and Chris, where do you see your journey going at this point? I think it's really important to us. We're at stage in our lives where we climb the mountain and now everything that we do going forward, it has to have purpose and has to have meaning. So, you know, through the sale of Chris's prints, that's how we are being able to afford buying land. And so we would love to keep pushing really hard in that direction. There's really great opportunities in Southern Namibia that we would we'd like to keep purchasing and gobbling up and connecting. So a very big focus of ours is on on Chris's wildlife prints that he sells as limited edition. And, you know, now that I've written two books, I just want to keep writing more because there's so many amazing subjects that we can bring to life, you know, in the way that that that I've done it.

1:54:39 And I feel like I've got a lot that I want to share still on and every story that I tell it's yes, it's a kid's book and it needs to be fun and interactive. But I think I'll try put in a subtle little message. So, you know, with Sandy and salty sea dogs, it's all about ecosystems and how everything animals important. And with Lucy and the great white sharks, I really wanted the young reader to kind of understand what is a predator and yes, predators catch, kill and eat things. But it doesn't mean that we need to be afraid of them. If anything, we need to respect them, even if we don't love them. And I was trying to put across an understanding that predators are so important. They play such important roles in keeping ecosystems healthy and strong.

1:55:21 So, yeah, there's lots of lessons in wildlife that I would love to be able to impart. And, you know, you never know how many people you reach. But for me, if it's one or two kids that really get the lesson and they go on to do something great, like we have to make sure that those stories are keep being rewritten going forward because, yeah, I just I just feel like I don't want to sit back and not do anything. I want to be able to give back and, you know, Chris feels the same way. And and you can only do so in the way that you can. You can only look at your little patch and think, well, how can I make a difference in my patch? And as long as you've got that gumption to go ahead and try, then then I think small battles can be one, you know, so so we're going to keep fighting and lots of battles out there. And everything for us going forward is about purpose and meaning.

1:56:10 Yeah, yeah. Sort of the plus thing here. It's been a it's been a fascinating talk with you. What advice would you have for some young person, say, like yourself, who maybe was doing something different and had an opportunity to go in this direction of their career? What do you have any advice for them? I think two two bits of advice is that passion is going to take you a long way because, you know, these journeys are not easy and you have to have that fire inside you that makes you want to keep going and doing what you're doing. So keep being passionate and no matter what it is in any sphere of interest that you have that you want to go into something. But the second thing is always say yes. If there's an opportunity, say yes. Even if it's something that you're afraid of or you're not sure that you can do it, just say yes because you never know how doors open from saying yes to opportunities.

1:57:04 So never be afraid to put yourself out there. It's not easy to put yourself out there, but just do it. You never know what comes across it and it doesn't work. That's fine. Another one will come along. So yeah, those would be my two bits of bits of advice. Well, that's what's great. That's really, really good advice. That's really good advice, Monique. And thank you so much for coming on the show today. We definitely we're going to have you back here at some point. Maybe we'll figure out something. We definitely had some fascinating story. And that's what we like doing about the podcast is people like yourself just has amazing journeys, especially when someone like yourself started out in tennis and went a completely different direction. So anyway, well, thanks, Dave. And thanks, Andrew. Yeah, I've loved telling to you guys. And yeah, I just yeah, it's like I said, it's great to share. So thank you for giving me the chance to do so.

1:57:55 Absolutely. And the next time we have Chris, I'm gonna ask about his his tennis record against you just to get a different answer. Have him react to it. That's awesome. This has been absolutely wonderful to have you on the podcast get to know you more. And we'll post the links for people who are interested in getting those books for their kids and friends, kids and everybody to get more information out on predators and what why dogs love the ocean to I mean, let's let's let's be honest. That's it's a natural.

1:58:35 That'd be amazing. That they're curious. Yeah, absolutely. Love it. Thank you so much for coming on. We appreciate it. Good. Great. Thanks, guys. It's a real pleasure. Thank you many for joining us on today's episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast, Dave, to go from I mean, you were an athlete in college, we've talked to other athletes, you know, on this podcast, there's something different about athletes at this level, whether it's college level, whether it's professional level, they have this work ethic that they that that you've you've accrued over your childhood and over high school, and to college and into like your 20s, that just never really leaves, right? Like you just have this ability to retain like the discipline and what need what you need to succeed. I thought it was it really came out in this in this episode with Monique going from tennis background to or professional tennis, and then coming into like, I don't know really what I'm going to do find something she's passionate about, and then dives into it, you know, pretty much at first, I guess, if I'm going to go take this, this part all the all the way to the end, but it's been quite interesting.

1:59:35 Yeah, no, it was a fascinating story. And I really, I said, I really didn't know Chris, I've known for a while and stuff I knew a bit about his background. He's of course, he's been on the podcast. But Monique, I, you know, I knew her name, but I never met her never talked with her, I didn't really know what her background other than she was involved with, with the stuff that Chris does. But it's fascinating. I mean, I didn't know she realized she was a before the before the episode, she was a professional tennis player, and you do, there's a certain discipline you learn when you're doing athletics, you know, especially you get to a college level, or definitely a professional level, you got to be fun. And I think she's really focused on that. And, and a lot of that, what you learn those skills there translates can translate into your professional life, wherever you end up going. It was interesting that she said, you know, the time she was 21 or so, she knew her career was pretty much, she kind of got as far as she was going to go in the tennis career, and it was kind of fortuitous that she met Chris when she did. And, and you know, all the skills, so she can she, we always talk about people in this field, never have a straight line journey.

2:00:34 And she wasn't even interested in sharks, never thought about sharks. She wasn't even really a water person, having grown up having grown up around Cape Town, which is hard for me to believe, but I do believe that but but yeah, that she said that she she's a boat captain now she's out. Yeah, photographer. She's out in the water all the time. She travels all over the world with Chris doing and, you know, she's actively involved with a real partner in the whole operation. And that was, that was an incredible story. I don't know. She's like a, she's like a great kept secret. I got a, you know, discovery, anybody's out there, listen, you got to get her out there. And some future episodes. She was terrific on the whole thing.

2:01:14 No doubt. I mean, that's something that's been, you know, this is what's great about doing these interviews is we get to talk about people who are not only known in in the field, but also, you know, people who aren't as well known or their story, the of how they got to where they are, and when what they decide to do with it when they got there are not known. And we're able to share this story because I think there's a there's a lot of people who may not have gone to university for, you know, science or marine biology or fishery science or anything like that. But they have this passion and they have this ability to contribute. And I think we've seen time and time again, it's happened, especially with this interview where we've seen many contribute to documenting air jaws over the years and documenting that population.

2:02:04 And of course, you know, we get we get into it a little bit of what's been happening with the population and, you know, and how disappointing it is and then how she how she sees the changes, you know, along with Chris. And then also at the end, you know, we talk about their contribution back, you know, they they've been able to prosper over documenting why wildlife encounters for a number of decades. And now they want to give back by purchasing land in the Bibi and being able to have the sanctuaries and or or like on the process, like on this journey to create these corridors that allow animals to move back and forth without having any kind of development on their further development on there.

2:02:45 I think she said that they bought like agricultural land. So that'll be interesting. And then she journey that hopefully we can come back and both of them can share what that process was like. And I've been to that area. They're talking about Fish River Canyon. It's beautiful. It's a stark difference, but it's just it's beautiful stuff. And obviously, if you listen to the show, you've heard me talk endlessly about Namibia and stuff. And but but, you know, but yeah, it's amazing. It's great to see. It's amazing. But it's really great to see like people like this, like, you know, they've been very done very well, you know, giving back to their, you know, giving back, you know, in the form of like this, this, this air, this agricultural land. They're going to buy and to have it turn into an animal sanctuary in a way for the animals can migrate, which is a big deal in Africa.

2:03:29 You know, because the animals got it like an amphibian. So they have to migrate a long ways to water, which is kind of the essence of everything else going on. And so the really good story. Chris kind of touched on it. We we spoke with them. But, you know, Monique really got into it a lot. I thought a little more on the whole thing. And yeah, definitely great to have them have her have both of them come back, talk a little more about that later on as it gets further developed. But but yeah, it's I say she was she was quite a fine tough for us to get on the show because I know she doesn't do a lot of media, which is terrible in the media part because she was she was great. And she should she. Oh, yeah. I hope with this episode, she'll start to get out a little more and some other that some other media will have her on podcasts or or or or on programs, documentary nature, documentary stuff because, yeah, she was terrific.

2:04:21 She knows her stuff, too. She really spent all that time out there. She knows she knows definitely no sharks, shark behavior. She's learned about the marine environment there. And she can talk as well as anyone about what's going on out there, which is which that's a whole other thing just coming from no formal training to be able to like pick up and stuff like that. That's phenomenal. Really amazing. Agreed. Agreed. I think it's something that we need more more people like that and getting their stories out. Right. Yeah, that's why we do these podcasts because that's what we want to do. We want to get these types of stories out because they need to be told. And that's what's that's what's fun about that. So we want to thank Monique for coming on. We're going to put links to her books that you can buy, whether it's if you're in Australia, you can buy the physical copy. If you are in elsewhere, you can go to Amazon. You can buy her books there.

2:05:11 I highly recommend that you get them for your children, for your children's children, for friends of like the children's friends, whatever that might be. But it's a great book and it teaches you know how to just be good and kind to the environment, which is great. And it documents their dogs, which I think is kind of cool too. Yeah, but yeah, Dave, if people want to get ahold of you, how would they do so? As a lost shark guy on Instagram and YouTube channel, a lost shark guy. And please go to both Instagram and YouTube and subscribe. I appreciate it. Absolutely. And if you want to get a little less beyond Jaws Pod on Instagram, you can DM us. All the links are in the show notes. I highly recommend that you go check that out. And of course, if you want to support the work that we do in this work that work that I do for podcasting everything, you can go to speakupforblue.com forward slash Patreon.

2:06:01 And you can support us there at different different tiers, support the work that I do on this podcast, as well as others and all that kind of stuff. So well, thank you so much for joining us on today's episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast from Dave and I have a great day. We'll talk to you next time. And happy conservation.