She Built Shark Science Where Almost Nobody Was Looking

1:00:02 Hey everybody, welcome back to another great episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. Today on the podcast, we're gonna be focusing or interviewing Gofrein Labdiet. She is one of the keynote speakers at Sharks International 2026. It's happening in this early May, coming up in 2026. And we're excited to have her on because we've never had her on before. She's such a fun person to interview. She works in Cameroon, working on the LASMO ranks and she's originally from Tunisia. So we're gonna get her background. We're gonna get her life story and we're gonna get her shark conservation career story on the book. So we can't wait to do that. So let's start the show.

1:00:43 Hey everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. I'm your host, Andrew and your co-host, Andrew Lewin here with my co-host, Dr. David Ebert. Dave, are you ready to interview Gofrein? Oh, absolutely. I've seen her name around. I've actually met her and talked with her before. I thought she was a real dynamo. I was really happy to see her on here. I'm glad we were able to get her on for, have her on for the interview for this podcast. And yeah, it's definitely like kind of West Africa, Cameroon, that area is not an area that's well known at all. And so she's one of the people we had. We had a Guido Lourz on last year who's working North of her in West Africa.

1:01:24 But that's just, West Africa is just really a largely unknown area for sharks and rays. So she's really doing some interesting kind of exploring type research where she's working out there. And obviously being a young woman, working in an area that there's probably not too many women working in that working in. So it's really excited to have her on. And she'll be a spark plug, I'm sure. No, absolutely. You know, I think it's interesting to see more and more young scientists and female scientists at that that we've been having on the podcast that are going out and into areas where, like you said, shark research hasn't really been established yet, or even just knowing what types of sharks are there, we just haven't seen.

1:02:10 And so we're like, they're going to be pioneers in these countries to say, "Hey, you know, this is what we've discovered. "Girlfriend made this network of connections throughout Cameroon, "working with the government, you know, as easy as that may be, "or as hard as that might be, as she mentioned, "as she's going to mention in the interview." You know, it's going to be interesting to see where this progresses. It has to start somewhere and starting with Girlfriend and the network of people and fishers that she's dealing with. So I think it's going to be a really interesting episode. So why don't we get into that interview with Girlfriend. Enjoy, and we'll talk to you after. Hey, Girlfriend, welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast. Are you ready to talk about sharks?

1:02:50 Yes. All right. Well, welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast where we have another amazing guest who'll be one of the keynote speakers at the Sharks International this year in May. Andrew and I have been featuring several of the keynote speakers who have not been on the podcast over the last several weeks. And we have another tremendous guest. We have girlfriend, Labiette, who's originally from Indonesia. Almost said Indonesia, but she's from Tunisia, but she's now working in Cameroon. Girlfriend is an aquatic biologist and ocean conservationist whose passion for marine life began on the shores of Montsterat, Tunisia, which had to look up on a map because it's a beautiful city in the Mediterranean just across the straits of Sicily from the island of Sicily.

1:03:36 Girlfriend started her career as a volunteer monitoring sea turtles and experience that contributed to the establishment of the Kuret Islands Marine Protected Area, which inspired her lifelong dedication to ocean conservation. From 2019 to 2024, she worked with the African Marine Conservation Organization, AMCO, in Cameroon, focusing on the conservation of sharks and rays. In 2022, she became the shark and ray program manager, leading fish market surveys, socio-economic studies with fish communities, also volunteer training and policy advocacy. She translated scientific research into reports and policy briefs to guide decision-making and secure funding for conservation initiatives.

1:04:16 In 2023, she helped create a network of researchers and organizations working on sharks and rays across western central Africa with her friends at the Manitrust Guy Stevens Group, bridging gaps with research skills and policy across the region. In 2024, Girlfriend became a National Geographic Explorer. In 2025, she became a fellow for both the Sustainable Ocean Alliance and the Nature Environment Wildlife Filmmaking Program, working to combine science and storytelling to inspire action. Her schooling, she has a Bachelor of Science in Marine Biology and Aquaculture from the Higher Institute of Biotechnology at Ben Sturett, Monastart in Tunisia, also an MSC from the same university in marine ecology.

1:04:58 She currently is the start of new programs, the lead coordinator for the West and Central Africa Elasmobrein Coalition for the Manitrust and began her new role as the regional vice chair for the IUCN shark species shark specialist group. And with all those impressive achievements, she has a lot more she'll tell us about today. With that, welcome to the show, Gophraim. Thank you so much. Thank you for all you have been saying about me. Yeah, all of those hats, I'm wearing all the different hats. It's for the sharks and rays. And yeah, thank you for also inviting me today. It's such a pleasure to be with you.

1:05:40 And yeah, let me know what you what you want to know about all you have been introducing. Yeah. Well, we want to know everything about you, but let's start off with how you got interested in the marine environment on sharks. And how did you how did you get interested? Actually, I have a funny story because every time I want to do something, the universe shifts me to one other thing changes the path for me. Because first, when I got my baccalaureate when I was about to start university, I wanted to study genetics.

1:06:21 And I went to another city in Tunisia, a coastal city by the sea. I was studying genetics by that time, like the diseases that we can have related to our parents, the like those kind of diseases. And I was leaving just two minutes far from the sea. I remember I I wasn't able to swim more than two meters depth by that time. And the sea was just next to the house. So I was always going to to to test myself if I can go far, if I can see more. And I got myself a mask.

1:07:06 And I slowly, slowly, I found out that the ocean is more than we thought it is. It's more than summertime. It's more than you swim and you don't see what's below. You just like we use it to swim and we don't see what's going on and the water. And I really got fascinated and slowly, slowly, I heard about an association next and the same city I was in. It's called Notre Grand Bleu, our big blue in French. And I started volunteering with them. They were volunteering. They were like working on an isolated island, a remote island, no habitants there to save sea turtles.

1:07:53 That this island was a stable site for notification for sea turtles. And I was spending almost like all of the summer there and an isolated island, no electricity, no running water, just waiting for the sea turtle to come out from the sea and to wait for for it to like to prepare her nest. And lay the eggs and then market. And by then I felt really alive. I felt that I'm leaving an impact, changing something in the world. I'm not just existing, sleeping and eating and that's it.

1:08:39 And I went to mom one day and I said, mom, I'm going to change my studies and I'm going to stop genetics and I'm going to start marine biology. Everyone was upset at me and I cried so much. Yeah. I cried so much that night because it was like a big decision that I was about like to make in my life. And I felt like I'm giving up on a dream and I'm starting the unknown because I was following my heart. I wasn't following my mind. I was following something that I love suddenly something that I discovered suddenly. And yeah, that's how I got to the marine biology.

1:09:23 And I never regretted that decision. Never. Good. How was it though? Like, you know, after your parents didn't like your family didn't like it, you still have to push through to like, that's what you wanted to do. So what was that process like? Like, how did you how did you get through that? Because we've had guests on here before where marine biology wasn't their first path. And so to push through that and where families not really agreeing to it, how did you just continue on? It demands a lot of time. They like my family is mom for me. I don't have a big family. It's mom and it's like more than enough. She wasn't she wasn't understanding what's going on first. She was seeing me as if I'm lost. And I'm like doing something that she cannot understand.

1:10:17 Like, why are you stopping something you wanted to you left of in your city to go to another city and to study genetics? And now you are like, like changing your mind. But quickly, mom, she was she was like, I, I use it always to let mom be with me even in the zoom meetings. If I'm if when I was going to Cameroon, for example, like now I'm I work in Cameroon, the first few meetings that I was starting the preparation for my internship in Cameroon, mom, she was with me like she was just listening and seeing how how the preparation is going on. I'm a unique child, by the way, she doesn't have like other other like children except me. So that was so hard for her to see her unique kid is like, is going is going from like a field to another field and starting a new career in another country.

1:11:22 And it's not a common country Cameroon. It's not the Europe. It's not the Maldives. So it wasn't easy for her. But she she was like, she was following following me. And I think that the the fact that I was making her inside of everything goes going on, like made her more more like accepting what's going on because she was she was like, inside all the behind the scenes. So she she she knew everything. Yeah. And for example, also during my my master's degree when I was like presenting my my thesis and everything, she was present and she was hearing the the like my my professors, how they they were impressed by my work and everything.

1:12:18 So she was so she was so proud. And also that there was another thing that happened. I went on TV in Tunisia because that was funny. That just happened. It like I went on TV because in 2021, I was in Cameroon and the the like the the cup, which is like the it's the football game in in Africa, like the in all Africa. And they found out that I was the only Tunisian person who was leaving in that city in Cameroon. And they made like a short film about me. And that made mom so proud of me like everyone saw me on the TV like her her daughter is is in another country doing an amazing work. So it demands time. And it wasn't easy because it was so different. Like I wasn't following her.

1:13:16 Like I wasn't following any other like any one other steps like I wasn't following my friend steps or my cousin steps in the family. I was like the new example, which is which is not easy at all. Yeah, for sure. Because there's not like a lot of people. There's not really like a lot of Tunisian marine biologists, at least that I know of it like in the shark world. Oh, oh, we have we do have but we get we we don't like the ones I know they are in Tunisia. Most of them, they say they still in Tunisia. Yeah, but in Cameroon, I'm the only one. Definitely.

1:14:02 No, nobody. Yeah, yeah. I could I could. Marine Biologists Tunisian. I'm only the only person. That's true. Well, well, everybody knows who to go see then. And you're also doing sharks, which I know that that part of the world, there's a very few people that really ever done sharks in that part of the world as well. Now, since you've shown up in Cameroon, do you have like a following of other people kind of gotten inspired about the type of research you're doing and try to get involved with? Actually, in Cameroon, I'm trying to get other locals be involved with in that's one of my main goals, because it's, it's not common. And the skills are miss it.

1:14:58 Even when people they want to, they cannot because, you know, they don't know the way how to do that. I like the identification of sharks and rays, how to collect data. So that's, that's what I'm I was doing. And that's what I will keep the doing as well. I one of one of the people I I trained, she recently got a grant from save our seas and she will attend the Sharks International. She's Cameroonian. She's 23 years old. Yeah, that's that's like a big, a big, huge, like impact for me. Yeah. Yeah.

1:15:46 Who is it? Can you say her name? Yeah, she she she called fitra fitra fitra. Okay, shout out to a bit of podcast. And yeah, yeah, yeah. She actually in Cameroon, they speak French more than English. Like that. Cameroon is the linguistic. So they speak both French and English. But 85% of Cameroon, they speak French and the rest they speak English, because they were colonized by English and friends. So, yeah. And like sometimes the only problem for the new like the early careers that they cannot speak English example for her. She speaks more like French is more comfortable in French. But I was telling her that I'm Arabic and my English is not I'm not native like speaker and it's okay to make mistakes, but which is not okay that you will not try.

1:16:50 So I'm pushing her now she can speak English very well. She can communicate. Yeah, so the attending the Sharks International for her will be amazing. So she will be in the shock. She will be in the shock and she will like explodes. I know her. She will do fine. Well, let's, let's be honest, like, you know, Dave and I obviously English is our first language, I speak a little bit of French because I live in Canada, but, you know, it would be very difficult for us to go to a country where English is not the first language and to learn that language. We always I always give respect to people who that's not like, you know, they coming from a country where English is not their first language. They come in and they speak English to accommodate everybody else. I always give them props for that because that's not an easy thing to do. It's got to be uncomfortable. I know I feel uncomfortable when I go to a different country where like if I if it's Spanish country or Italian, like, you know, wherever you are, not speaking local language and you try and it's, you know, it's not going to be perfect.

1:17:46 But the fact that people are trying is just amazing and it's difficult to feel comfortable with that. So the fact that she gets more and more comfortable by continue to try and having you to kind of encourage her to do that. It'll be great and being a sharks international people are from all over the world. They're going to be comfortable with her and let her try and get the words out. Be patient. Absolutely. There'll be plenty of people there that speak French and yeah, true. I mean, I'd say I would say probably speak in Arabic as your first language. You're going to find fewer Arabic speakers. Yeah, then you will French speakers there. I know I know Rima speaks Arabic, I believe and we never we have we have never been speaking Arabic. Remember me. We are both.

1:18:34 Yeah, I've I've been in her home territory there in Dubai and so I've I've actually seen her speak in Arabic. Oh, nice. Nice. I think she speaks like four or five, six languages. Quite a few quite a few languages there. Anyway, I know there's she won't have any problem. There'd be enough people speaking French to to to get by and to speak. You know, you're obviously speaks some English Arabic and you also speak French pretty well. Yeah, yeah. Three languages. Yeah, yeah. Three languages. That's yeah, that's three more and I speak. So that's pretty good. You you you speak you you speak any other languages than the English. You said French and go and date.

1:19:21 I I speak a little bit of French. I grew up my my mom's from Quebec City, which is a friend of province here here in Canada. So I I went to French school when I was a kid all French school. But I lost a lot of vocabulary. But if I go back to Quebec, like I went back to Montreal not long ago and I was able to I was able to get around. Let's just say the more I speak it the the more vocabulary, right? It's like trying to figure out. Yeah, it's all about practice. Yeah. Yeah. But when I when I was growing up, I used to work in the fields picking crops and most of you know, a lot of the people out there are Spanish speaking. So I learned how to curse really well in Spanish at one time, which is it's it's funny. But most people in a lot outside say an academic circle most languages whenever I had exposure to people different. Yeah, you learn the curse words first right away. You know, it's funny. You learn the curse words. You don't forget the curse word. No, you're trying to speak. Try to carry on a conversation without cursing. It's.

1:20:14 Really hard. Yeah, I can imagine. And that's a universal thing. I've had exposure in other languages, Chinese, Portuguese. It's like they always you always learn a few of the curse words first. Yeah. For whatever reason, it's just a universe. My experience is just like a universal 100%. Yeah, okay. So it's not just growing up high school. We had a lot of different people from all over the room. And as soon as they had, they knew a language of the Spanish Mandarin Cantonese. Like, I knew how to swear in all of those. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, Filipino. Yeah, those types of things. It was always really good. I don't feel like just a day thing. So maybe we'll have an after the show and go Frank and teach you some some some curse words in Arabic. So actually, I'm like, I'm getting more used to French because I live more in Tampa.

1:21:12 So I speak more French than Arabic. So but when I got back to Tunisia, I was like perfect in Arabic yet I was like, kinda afraid. Oh, maybe I forgot how to speak Arabic. But no, no, it wasn't the case. My friends, they were telling me no, you are fine. You are fine. Yeah. Well, let me ask you this. When you go speaking a language, when you go out to like a lot of the villages and some of the more remote areas there, do you find they speak more of a local a local d dialect than you mean in camera? Yes. Yeah, it's it's really an interesting question in Cameroon. They do have more than 200 local languages. And the accent, the accent of the French here, it's totally different than the French I use it to speak in my country. So when I came like the first time here, my brain, like got a little bit confused. First, I was I was hearing even like new expressions of of the French language, like they they use other expressions, but now I speak like them 100%. Like I even use the same experience. Sometimes they are confused.

1:22:28 Like, are you Cameroonian? I'm like, almost. Yeah, but yeah, I was I was almost in all the coastline of Cameroon. And the north of the coastline, they speak English and they speak the PG. The PG is something extracted from the English when you when you hear it, you feel like it's English, but it's not English. It's another language. It's it sounds so similar to English, but it's not English. It's it's so close. And yeah, it was the hardest thing, like honestly, but the other the other like part of the coastline, they do speak French. And I've never been in a place or a village where people they couldn't communicate with me. It's whether French or English, even though they they still speak other languages. So I was lucky.

1:23:31 Yeah, I was really lucky. Yeah, they always speak English or French. So you can communicate in one way or another. Okay, yeah, I found like some of these like, you know, even in South Africa, there's something like two or three dozen different languages when you start bringing in all the tribal languages and you could really get into. Yeah, you can really get get lost in all kinds of usually if is if you use English will kind of get you around pretty much most certainly if you're in the city areas of towns, you can do that. When you get out out there, you can speak they'll speak a whole host of other languages. That's why it's kind of kind of curious when you go out like in Cameroon, particularly how it is how it is outside trying to communicate with the people. So, you know, so I got another question. I have a question for you too.

1:24:18 When you go out there, when you go out, particularly the more remote areas, how is it being a young woman going out trying to in the villages and stuff? That's got to be an interesting experience for you. Yeah, actually, I think it's a good experience. Actually, it's not the same for me when I did it first, like when I did it after a couple of times, like the first times were the most tough time for me. I remember like I the first time I came here to Cameroon, I was 25 years old. I and I've never been to the sub-sarian Africa before that was my first time. And when I first came here, I was in a village. I was based in a village in Cameroon called design gay.

1:25:09 And there was no electricity, no running water. I was sharing the same room with other Cameroonians. That was so like tough for me. Like I just left home. That was an internship. I wasn't paid. I was just volunteering. I was like training the staff to identify sharks and rays and prospect the biodiversity and everything. So I was really kind of in the shock. Like it was a cultural shock. I felt that I'm not African. I was like, Oh, I'm from Africa and I'm feeling like this. What about European people? Like I'm still from Africa. Why am I feeling like kind of isolated, you know, and slowly, slowly I was searching for for like how I can fit how I can be a different but not an outsider because these two things are so different. Like you can be different, but you can fit in. But being an outsider is the problem.

1:26:21 You need to find like a way to adapt to to like get used and everything and slowly, slowly I found myself I was searching for the things that I never had in my own country, like the simplicity, the wildness, how people are so easy to get with how how they are so welcoming, so warm and everything. So, yeah, for a young woman, as you say, the first time I was in the fish market, people, they didn't accept me because I was different. But when they when they they kept seeing me going back again and again and being committed and having the same goal every week, they have been seeing me every month.

1:27:12 They have been seeing me. They started calling me my daughter, come my daughter, come my and that's that's kind of I am an emotional person, by the way, I'm so emotional and I can cry even in the team's meeting. I'm like, I cannot, I cannot hide my emotions. And this is like, this is a power, not a weakness because they use it to tell me that you are weak because you are emotional, which is not true. The key to get fit inside of Cameroon was because I'm emotional because the population saw me emotional and Karen feelings with me, Karen love with me.

1:27:57 They trusted me. They gave me space to exist with them. If they saw me only as a scientist, I'm in the fish market just to collect data and leave. I would never keep existing until now. I would maybe spend two or three years and then I'm gone, like from Cameroon. But the thing that really kept me being here and kept the fishers and the coastal community to like accept to work with me and collaborate with me is because I'm emotional. I'm carrying emotions with signs at the same time, not just signs with me.

1:28:41 I'm here for a reason and we are all here for the same reason. So we don't need to be like, I'm a young woman, I'm different, I'm foreign and I'm not from the same country, but we have unicity at the same time. We are all searching for purposes, why we came to this life, why we exist. So everyone is searching in his own way. And that's why I found myself like slowly, slowly, more than a young woman in a different country. And like, I feel at home as I was telling you that I'm not in my own country, but I'm still feeling at home because we built something through time, trust and trust and like, like vision. So that's why I faced it. I faced all those challenges of being foreign and being young and being a woman in in like, in the fish marketplaces more for men than women. But in Cameroon is different. You can find women selling fish more than men. So maybe that's why I could have exist.

1:30:02 And I could have like, have more trust in myself and confidence. So yeah, that's that's how I I got where I am today, even though it wasn't easy at first. So now with you're going there and you got your mainly your focus now on the sharks and rays. Is that your main work you're doing there? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so now you are you doing this like is this part of through the man to trust you're doing this. I can I can I can tell that how the story how the story went like just a brief.

1:30:47 First, when I came to Cameroon, I was searching for whales, not for sharks and I wanted to study whales. Oh, cool. Yeah. And we we don't have resident whales in Tunisia. They just passed by. They don't they don't like exist for a permanent way. So I was searching outside of my country because I was sure. And a simple search on Google, I found out the African marine by the time it was African marine mammal organization conservation organization. I'm cool. I found about them. And I found about another organization in Australia and I send my CV and my motivation letter to go for an internship and both they like accepted me for an interview. But I didn't reply for the Australian organization. And I replied for the Cameroonian. I was like, let's go slowly, slowly.

1:31:48 I don't want to go so far. Let's go slowly, slowly. So I went to Cameroon first for two months as internship for whales and the marine megafauna as well, including sharks and rays, sea turtles, dolphins, whales and everything. It was in 2019 when I spent two months as the first time. All I saw most of the time was sharks and rays being landed in different sizes, many species, around 30 species being like processed in many ways, smoked, dried, finished everything. And when I was did the research, I found nothing. No papers published, no reports, no laws protecting this species in the country.

1:32:37 So I felt and I didn't see any whale. I spent around 12 hours in the sea and I didn't see any whale. So it was like a message from the universe, like a call from sharks. It's an urgent call that that's what you need to do for now. You have been in Cameroon to to know what's going on about sharks and rays. And and then I went back to Tunisia and I did my master's degree on sharks and rays on Cameroon. So my master's degree was in Tunisia, but the topic was on sharks and rays in small scale fisheries in Cameroon. And then I got back to Cameroon in 2021 for six months in the northern coastline to to keep like exploring what's going on for sharks and rays. By the end of the six months is we found out about very rare species of mobile it raise its mobile.

1:33:36 And we use it to post on iNaturalist and that's how we were like we have been contacted by Manta Trust. I don't remember who contacted us first when he saw the picture. It was like, oh, this is a very rare species. If you can keep this specimen and the partnership started by then. And so it was basically someone they were monitoring iNaturalist to see if there's anything actually the organization I use it to work with. We use it to have our own application. It's called siren application. Fishers is an application.

1:34:22 They take pictures and they send us. That's how we can know what's going on in the sea. Yeah, that's so it was a picture from a fisher actually. And we use it to to to post those applications. And that's how we yeah that's how we we got like a message or any mail. I don't remember very well from Manta Trust team and in 2022 the Manta Trust team came to Cameroon to train us on the section and how to take samples and how to do the morphometric.

1:35:04 And we wrote a paper on that species on that specimen that we found and in 2023 we am cool and Manta Trust. They created the first network in Western Central Africa. People who are working on sharks and rays organizations researchers. They create like we created that network in 2023 and we hosted the first workshop in Cameroon where 12 countries participants came to Cameroon and we drafted the first strategy on sharks and rays in the region.

1:35:54 So that's how and now like for the last five years I was working for amco African-American conservation organization and starting from this year I'm working for the Manta Trust as a consultant to coordinate this network that we created in 2023. Yeah to enhance research collaboration and policy in the region. So for now I'm yeah I'm with Manta Trust. Yeah. Yeah. That's quite easy. That's a quite a story. Yeah. Yeah.

1:36:37 Well I mean you know it's we tell people it's all time and the people listen to the show is like nobody ever has like a straight line from like I'm going to do this and I'm going to go here. It just it just never goes that way. There's all this sort of zigzagging. Yeah. In your case you weren't even originally you're looking for whales which you never found the whales and then you I saw I saw whales in 2024 in Cameroon that we were in looking we were we weren't looking for them but we saw them. Yeah. That was funny. So I was like five years after you first went there right. Exactly. Yeah I was like okay. Just a little bit late but it's okay. Yeah. Just took five years.

1:37:22 Well at least you found them eventually. That's a good. At least I saw them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what. So now as you're doing this you're still you're going out in your surveying the species out there and stuff. And so what's sort of the direction you're looking at for like with all this this information you're gathering. I mean, Cameron's one of those places in which is most of the countries in West Africa is it's just like a black hole as far as knowing what species occur there. Yeah. Absolutely. So what do you so so obviously assume you're you're building up a database of the species you're seeing there. Yeah. Yeah. Actually we have been lucky because you know in in Western Central Africa we like many things not just one main thing we like like finance we like skills and we have been lucky because the the base data line that we got it was based on citizen science.

1:38:24 It was based on the siren application I was telling you about. Right. So we when I arrived in 2019 I found a database of almost 5000 observations of sharks and rates in just like four years I found like huge database and this database guided us where to go and what to do. We knew which fish markets we need to do the survey in and we knew which are the species that need more protection than others. So when I came here the first thing I wanted to implement is the fish market service in parallel with the citizen science because citizen science is a very important thing.

1:39:22 So citizen science is a very great tool but we need in depth data as well. So we started the fish market service in the key fish markets where we know that's that the sharks and rays are being landed in huge quantities. So that's where we started the fish markets first. And what we look for is that who are the species that are really threatened and at the same time being landed a lot being like cold a lot. So that's what we were looking for.

1:40:05 And also the sizes like we found out that 90 percent of the land are driven nice guitar fish the plexion guitar fish and this call up hammerhead. So like you cannot to draw and it like a very particular mob and you say oh I will go to the fish market to find this and to do this. No you need to go with the flow. You go to the fish market and you observe what's going on. We have this species are being landed the most and being like threatened the most.

1:40:51 OK. What what can we we know more about them. Oh they are driven nice. So probably they're like the fishing areas are overlapping with nursery areas. We cannot prove this now but it's probably the case. So you need it's like a puzzle and you are collecting the pieces and you cannot you cannot be sure 100 percent of what you will find. But you need to keep collecting and keep observing. And that's how you can have a macro vision of what's going on. I think there's a lot of this data like you're collecting now is this going to be used you think eventually by policymakers to develop like a national plan of action for sharks. Actually yeah it's very complicated. It's very good. Yeah I spent five years trying for like national action plans.

1:41:57 I hope one day it will work but it didn't work yet. I changed my strategy actually. I'm working now for fisher with fishers to protect sharks and it's easier. It's easier. I found a way as you're working right with the people who are catching. Yeah I found the way they are releasing back the baby sharks and raise now the fishers. They are aware the baby sharks and raise they will not give a very good income if you will sell them. So it's better to release them back if the individual is still alive. You release it back. It's better. And it's a sort of collaboration more than we are passing by the fishing community.

1:42:51 And they are collaborating with the fishing community for it for like the same vision. You are suffering from this nowadays situation of the ocean. There is no more fish. The climate is not the same. Instead of going once a week you are going like twice a month. Why all of this is because that we are not doing the sustainable practices. One of the sustainable practices is to release back sharks and raise and the fishing community is aware and happy to help. So I've been like going through this approach and showing the government.

1:43:35 Look the problem is no more the problem. It's the solution. Do what you need to do. The fishing community is safe and sharks and raise. What are you waiting to do. Please start something. So yeah that's what I want. And at the same time where I'm working in the south like so close to me there is the first marin protected area in Cameroon. But there is no like management plan yet. So we are trying to influence the management plan to be like including the sharks and raise protection in it.

1:44:21 At the same time including the say like the live release. So the fishers are doing this in other areas. It's going to be amazing if you will include it in the management plan of the marin protected area. So you as a scientist you will be straight to the point. Oh I have like threatened animal. We need to protect it. There is no way but I'm using other like ways I'm navigating to show like it's like mathematics. You know like you can you can find the same result but with different ways. And that's why that's what I'm doing now. So I'm showing the government that we have different ways. And please choose one.

1:45:09 I'm giving you options and just choose one. Yeah it takes time. It takes time. Go ahead. Yes. Our quick question here about all this this process. So you're working with fishers and you have a great relate. You're you're building that relationship and you continue to maintain that relationship which is nice because it's on the ground. You're on the ground. You know you're seeing this firsthand and they seem to be interested as as many fishers are around the world to protecting the resource right. But then you have the other side where it's you know you want to enact it into into policy. So you have to build this relationship with with government officials. What's it like you know I don't have like Dave has way more experience than I do in in Africa in in different countries in Africa and working with people there of all different of all different countries. What's it like building that relationship with you know people from the government of Cameroon. Is it do you find that you're doing that?

1:46:07 And did you have experience in doing this before so like you just kind of just described just sort of that entire process. Actually it's it's complicated. I will not say it's difficult or easy but it's complicated right which is which is like logical. Yeah. And it demands a lot of patience. You need to be sweet patients like you. That's why I'm using other ways at the same time. If you will if you will only use like policy and government and national action plans and you will stop doing anything else you will end up by doing nothing but right the best thing is that you keep knocking the doors of the government and at the same time you do parallelizing.

1:46:57 So the government will say oh this is doable this is this can be realistic because you need to translate what you your thoughts you you cannot like you need to put yourself in the shoes of others. You cannot expect the same way you are. You cannot like you need to put yourself in the shoes of others. You cannot expect the same way of thinking from government like you. Sorry for the word but that means I'm stupid if I will I will like expect that like I cannot I cannot expect that my that the fishers will think the same way like me or I will never also think the same way as fishers.

1:47:39 So you need always to be empathetic be like okay they are being hard here that makes sense. Let's see why let's see how can we make it easier. Can we make it more like smooth. So it's really complicated and it needs like sometimes they can give you promises. They will never tell you no or close the doors and that's the thing like first time you will meet people from government you will be so impressive. They will give you all the promises. Yes you will do this will do that. And you will go back home flying. Oh yeah I've done everything and then nothing happened.

1:48:31 I've been naive. I've been telling my boss. Oh no no they told me that they will do this. They will do that. And then I got it. Yeah I got it. It's not easy. It's a whole system even for them. It's not easy to integrate such laws inside of the system. It's not like a click like this. It needs like revision and revision and revision and revision and it needs to be revised by many like different like people. So it needs time and patience and it needs more approved like you need to prove to them. It's it's it can be real.

1:49:15 So you can do it. The problem the thing that you are seeing as a problem is being the solution. So please just to change something just do something. And one of the things I I I really like to do is to create a space where the government and the fishers can communicate. I love this. I really love. Yeah. OK. Like you are given orders and they know they're like they know what's going on more than anyone more than the scientists more than the government the fishers they are always in the sea. They know more than anyone. So I give them the space to talk talk about what's going on. Let the government listen to you. And that's how the debate can get like interesting and can be fruitful and we can co create solutions because I cannot create solutions alone. I've seen them only from my perspective. It's it won't be so impactful. Everyone needs to be in the same area and everyone needs to decide not just the government not just the scientific community not just the fishing community.

1:50:34 Everyone at the same time. So yeah I'm like sometimes I sound weird but by the end I sound more logical when people like they follow me until the end. Yeah that makes sense. So yeah that's that's what I was trying to do. Yeah that that's an amazing story. So I just want to keep you too much longer here. So that you you've done some amazing stuff earlier in your career. Where do you see your career going over the next five ten twenty years. It's a funny question especially for me. I was telling you I wanted genetics. I found myself in modern biology. I wanted whales. I found myself with sharks and rays. So maybe I will tell you something now. And I'm going to tell you something now.

1:51:23 But I'm sure that we have it on record. We'll have it recorded. So we'll play back to you later. Basically no one recorded for me before. Yeah. Actually I will tell you about my dreams. Then my big dream. Then then like where I see myself like my big dream is to have a small boat a very simple boat that I get. I can go around the world and I can make a boat. I can make the local people to see those like very small individuals and snorkel as I started love in the ocean. I love making people snorkel and seeing the tiny very very tiny with the microscope.

1:52:12 And like the very tiny animals like to show people things that we didn't use to see. It's easy to see but we didn't know how to see. So that's my big dream is to have a boat. We travel around the world showing this very very simple things to local people and then leave. This is like my my my my dream. Yeah. I love it. I think it's fantastic. It's connecting people to the ocean which is such an important part. Right. You know a lot. I think that the in here in North America Dave you probably heard this before. It's you know people were often referred to like when you try to get grounded you touch grass like touch nature you get in nature. I always say you know you you touch water. You know just go out and touch the water. Feel grounded. Feel like. And I think that's such an important aspect to how people need to feel about about the ocean.

1:53:09 And about nature in general. Because a lot of times we feel we're so involved in our own lives that we don't get. We don't feel that connection to nature and often that disconnect can lead towards a lot of bad things right. Yeah. Like it's sometimes there are things in life that are so easy but we we don't have the chance to get them. So I would just to try to help locals to have this change. That's it. It's a simple thing. But sometimes we can't. And we can never have them. I was really lucky to have them like this. And yeah. So that's my awesome my my tiny dream. Do you think do you think you'll ever use genetics and combine that with sharks at some point. Absolutely. This is the next step. Absolutely. Yeah. Acoustic telemetry and genetics. I want to start my PhD on that.

1:54:08 Because I've been saying that I know that there are nursery grounds in Kamhoon but to confirm them I need more evidence and the more evidence is the acoustic telemetry and some genetics as well. Maybe to to like assess more the biodiversity because not everything is being landed. And all we have been doing is like to collect data on the landed species. So I want to combine these two things to go deeper in what's going on in Kamro. Yeah. Very nice. Thank you so much for coming on the show. We're going to have you back to see how your dream is progressing. Absolutely.

1:54:56 Absolutely. So I hope so. And I'll look forward to seeing you here in a month or so or a few weeks for the Sharks International. And anyway anyway we really really enjoyed having you out. We'll definitely have you back again sometime to get updated on your dream. Absolutely. And good luck as the keynote for Sharks International. It's the first time for me to be a keynote speaker and I will tell the story how I got to be a keynote speaker in public. I love telling stories. I love telling stories. Yeah. Yeah. You're great. I love it. I love the stories. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

1:55:37 You definitely you definitely deserve it. It is. It's your first time. I'm sure it won't be the last time with the way you are expanding our knowledge on on Sharks and Rays and in Kamroon and other places and look forward to having you back on and talking more about about Sharks. Thank you so much for providing such a safe spaces for early careers like me to talk about the work they are doing the dreams they have. They do have it's not like very common. And yeah. I'm like the more people feel seen and heard the more they are confident. So really thank you for giving us such a space. Really.

1:56:20 Thank you for that cover. We love giving space. That's what this podcast is for. So thank you. Appreciate it. All right. We'll talk to you later. Thank you girlfriend for joining us on today's episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. Great to have you on. I can't wait to hear about your keynote speech at Sharks International 2026 definitely deserved a true pioneer as I've mentioned before the interview true pioneer in discovering Sharks in Kamroon originally from Tunisia. Dave and going to camera into a completely new country. She even mentioned that it feels like home to her now more home than when she goes back to her original home. And so I think that's that's really interesting as David someone who's done research in in in countries that are pretty far from the U.S. or pretty far from your home.

1:57:07 So you know, I think the question is, what's the what are the challenges when you first get into a place like this? And obviously South Africa is very different from from Cameroon in a lot of ways. But like what's that like to go into a new country and try to establish that network of people that will give you information from a community of Fisher's and have those those types of relationships? Yeah, South Africa is a very different country than it is today. And it's it's literally like being an explorer when you're going into some area South Africa had a little bit in my case had had some shark research done it kind of faded away in the seventies. And then we kind of when I showed up there with Leonard Campan. in the 70s and then we kinda, when I showed up there with Leonard Campania, we kinda reinvigorated the whole shark research there.

1:57:52 But people have heard me talk in the podcast, I spent, went to Namibia. Nobody had ever done anything in Namibia at all. It was completely unknown. And so that was just like literally like an adventure just trying to get around there and study sharks and rays. So I can really appreciate what she's doing. Though I always kinda have to add the, well, she does have like, you know, cell phones and computers and internet. Yes, a little bit. Cause I didn't have any of that stuff. I mean, I, this is not a joke, but literally I had a compass and a map. That was how you navigate. There was no GPS, nothing. So I have to sound like, you know, your grandfather and say, talk about, you know, walking in the snow and your bare feet or something.

1:58:36 But no, you really to go into an area that in West Africa, you know, we had, we had a Lucy on a few weeks ago, talking about Angola. And in her case, she is, her parents were Angola. So she had a, and she has family there. So you had a little bit of a connection, but again, that's another area in West Africa where nobody really knows anything. Right. So she's going in there, having to build those relationships with the community and stuff. And I think probably, I think it helps too, a little bit of your, well, in Lucia's case, she's not exactly a complete foreigner where his girlfriend is. She's Tunisian to establish herself there. And as we talked about, if you, you kind of go there, if you go there and you're around, you go there more than like one or two days, they'll get to know you and start asking you some questions.

1:59:23 And you have to, that's all about building those relationships. And it takes, you have to be kind of persistent and be showing up there and show you have a keen interest in the community, what's going on there to kind of, to build those relationships. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, that's the thing, right? Is the patience, the, you know, you have to give yourself the vulnerability, giving yourself over to getting to know people, spending that time with people. I think it's an important aspect to consider, something that needs to be done more. And then also working, you know, at one point she said that she feels more comfortable working with fishers than she does with the government, because the fishers will do more faster.

2:00:05 And it gets worked because you have the people who are out there doing the work to be able to see the value of, you know, protecting these sharks or, you know, sort of logging these sharks and they see that value in the future. So, you know, seeing how those relationships build, you know, over that time, hopefully as she works more with the government, they may not have had anybody advocate for sharks before and probably not. And so, you know, trying to see how slowly or quickly that relationship will move forward to get into see laws get into place. That'll be really important in the future. But it, you know, starts with somebody and it starts with Gofran.

2:00:45 And I think that'll put her in the books, you know, as someone who started that work and built a positive relationship with fishers in those communities to discover sharks and log and observe all these different sharks that are in there. And I'll be honest, I'm sure you are too. You know, we're excited to see, you know, what comes out of this, you know, how many sharks are going to be discovered? Are there going to be some, you know, species that we thought hadn't been seen in a long time may have gone extinct? Or are we like some lost sharks or are we going to see, you know, sharks that we typically thought would be there, but just haven't been logged in those areas. And you never know what discoveries we get. And this is why we always tell people, you know, go workplaces where we haven't looked for sharks before.

2:01:26 I mean, this is an example, this podcast is an example of, you know, interviewing people from South America, from Africa, from Indonesia, from Australia, from all over the place, where they go to places where, you know, research hasn't been done and they've been able to make these amazing discoveries or even just the regular discoveries of the species that are there, you know. And I think that's really important to see. So, yeah, Gofran, you're amazing. The keynote speech is going to be amazing. I'm sorry, I'm going to have to miss it. But Dave, you'll be there supporting her and hearing from her. And so that'll be at Sharks International 2026. That'll be exciting. So I'm looking forward to seeing that.

2:02:08 Now, Dave, if people want to get a hold of you, how would they do so if they want to ask questions or comments or anything like that? Lost Shark Guy on Instagram, also on Go to the YouTube channel, Lost Shark Guy. Check out our series, Searching for Lost Sharks, Extinct or Alive, the latest episode. On River Sharks is now posted. And please leave a comment and let me know how you enjoy it and hopefully enjoy it. And please subscribe. Absolutely. Don't forget to subscribe. We got more content coming out. It's going to be it's going to be amazing working on it right now. And if you want to get a hold of myself and Dave, you can go to at Beyond Jaws on Instagram. And of course, our YouTube channel is Beyond Jaws Pod on YouTube.

2:02:49 And you can just subscribe to that and to follow so you don't miss any of the episodes of the other episodes where you can see our faces and you can enjoy us talking to our guests. So thank you so much for joining us from Dave and I. We really appreciate your time and we want to thank you so much for joining us on this episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.