He Couldn’t Become a Doctor… So He Built a Shark Conservation Movement

1:00:00 Welcome back to another great episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. Today we have Raffid Sidky who is going to be talking about his organization that is surrounding the pelagic fishery for Thresher Sharks. And we're going to talk about how he got started. He's got a very interesting start to marine biology. He literally fell into the program in his local university because he couldn't get to be a doctor. And so we're going to talk about adaptation, learning a new, a completely new subject in the, in the relevance, doing some internship and that motivated him to do more work. Now he's got his own organization, employees of 25 staff, all local to Indonesia.

1:00:42 Now he's doing his PhD at Duke university. So we're going to talk lots about Raffid in his work and I can't wait to start. So let's start the show. Hey everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. I'm your co-host Andrew Lewin here with my co-host Dr. David Ebert. Dave, you ready to talk to Raffid about quite an interesting path into shark science. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. I, you know, I've known him by name, but I've never really talked with him before. And, and definitely this interview was, was pretty fascinating. He definitely had a lot of times, but he really had a completely unusual path to getting to where he is now doing a PhD at Duke university.

1:01:22 And especially coming from a family, it was kind of like his parents are going like, why, why aren't you doing a medical field? You know, so, so you really, everybody should really enjoy, you'll enjoy this episode today with Raffik. He was, it was an incredible thing. And he's, by the way, he's also one of the keynote speakers at this year's sharks international. It's going to be in a Colombo Sri Lanka from May 4th to 8th. And we've been having on several of the people who have not been on the podcast before they have, there's 10 keynote speakers, six of them have been on the podcast before, but Raffik was one of them, Marda, Gophram and Zoya were not, have not been on the podcast. So we thought, Hey, let's have them on the podcast. Absolutely. To share their story and get to know them a little better. So I really hope you enjoy this, this interview here about Raffik's journey. Yeah. And I think it's, it's, it's really interesting before we start the interview. I think it's interesting to, you know, a lot of times when people, you know, I'm a young age, want to be a marine biologist, right? And it's hard to get into a career or even education as a marine biologist. So oftentimes people divert from that original path.

1:02:25 It's never, we talk about the straight linear path doesn't really exist. Doesn't exist. You know, it's almost like a made up kind of thing. Some, for some people does, but not many. And we've proven that here with, with a lot of the interviews that we've done with a problem, every interview that we've done with this podcast. But you know, it's, it's never really a, I'm going to be a doctor. Now I'm going to become a marine biologist as an alternative livelihood or an alternative science. So I think it's, it's an interesting way of, of approaching life and the way that he adapted and is adapting and continues to adapt really makes it interesting to, to have this interview. So here's the interview with Raffid Sidky. Enjoy. And we will talk to you after. Hey, Raffid, welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast. Are you ready to talk about Thresher Sharks? Yes, I'm excited. All right. All right. Let's do this.

1:03:13 Great. Well, welcome to another episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. We have another special guest today. We have Raffid Shaqui and hopefully I pronounced that right. He'll correct me in a moment if I didn't. Raffid is a, is a PhD student at Duke University. And he's one of the keynote speakers at this year's Sharks International Conference being held in May of 2026. And as you know, we were having a series of, of guests on that, that are given the keynotes this year. And Raffid is one of those species. He's one of those, one of those species. One of those guests are having on this thing. He's a different, we'll talk about his species in a minute. Oh, geez. Okay. Anyway, we're all good. He knows. And we're, in addition to working towards his PhD, he's a co-founder and director of Thresher Shark Indonesia. And he's an ocean expert. He's on the ocean expert committee for the Department of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs in the United Kingdom. And as a whole host of other numerous positions, it would probably take me 15 minutes to go through every one of them. So hopefully we'll touch in a few of a few of them during our, during our interview here. He also serves as a field conservation officer, or he did for the Manta Trust Indonesia, Guy Stevens and our friends there who've been on the podcast.

1:04:20 He's also a fishery specialist for the United Nations Development Program. Raffid has received numerous fellowships and scholarships. I mean, it's an impressive record and hopefully we'll touch on some of those today. It's amazing how much he's done in his young career so far. And he's received again, numerous awards and honors. And he's been very successful in obtaining grants and funding, which is really the kind of the key everybody tries to do. But he's been amazing. Maybe he can give a little secret or spread a little pixie dust in our direction to maybe help us raise some funds too. He's been very productive in the last few years. He's got at least 10 publications that I could find. He did his bachelor's of science degree in marine science at the University of Genderel, Sodor Mir in Indonesia.

1:05:01 Hopefully I'm gonna tell you how I got close to it. He did an MSC in coastal science and policy at the University of California, Santa Cruz with Don Crowell. He's like the second one now that worked on Crowell was one of his advisors. And I've mentioned in our other interview with Marta Palacios, Don Crowell and I were cohabitated Moss Landing Marine Laboratories back in the early 80s. We did our master's degree together. We're in different labs at the time, though. And currently Raffid is doing his PhD in marine science and conservation at Duke University. And he's still in addition to all of that. He was a co-founder and director of Thresher Sharks Indonesia, which I'm really keen to find out more about that. So with all that, Raffid, welcome to the show.

1:05:44 Thank you. Yeah. Thank you for the kind words. And yeah, I know that my undergrad institution is a little hard to pronounce. It's like local name. Yeah, there's a lot of like local pronunciations in there. Well, yeah, I did. I did the best I could. Why don't you tell it? You did well. Oh, good. Well, thanks. Thanks. Better not use you do. That's good. That's good to hear. So well, we'll start off like we always ask our guests, like how did you get interested in marine science and sharks in particular? Yeah, that's the question that I always get whenever people ask me like why I decided to even pursue a PhD now in marine science.

1:06:25 Funny story is actually an accident for me to get into marine science. The best, the best time. Yeah, I was like, I got I got like a like fairly good grades in high school. You know, I received some, some good accomplishment and then my family is coming from this family of, you know, adopters and nurses. And in typical kind of, you know, middle, middle income community in Indonesia is that like, oh, if you want to be successful, then you have to become a doctor or like an engineer, you know, like a very typical kind of Asian definition of success. And then my mom was like, oh, with this grade, you should apply for medical school.

1:07:09 And then my teachers at high school as well, like they said, like, oh, you should apply to medical school. I did follow, you know, their suggestions. I applied to six, seven different medical schools in Indonesia. It's one of the hardest institutions to get into and it's also very expensive. I applied. I followed my, you know, the suggestions, my mom's ambitions. I eventually did not get into any of the medical programs. Yeah, it was like a really terrible experience. And I feel like, you know, I failed like, you know, I, all of my grades are being wasted. And the only program that was open, there's only this one university that you mentioned, Dave, it's in its its university program with marine science undergrad programs.

1:07:57 They are currently accepting and nobody's actually applying. So it's kind of like almost an automatic entry. And then, you know, because my high school has kind of a collaboration with this school, with this university. They gave me like a special, you know, admission because of because of my grad and stuff like that. So there you go. I got again into marine science. In the first two years, I really confused and I don't really understand like, why am I studying an algae? And like a sea stars like what is it for? You know, like I don't really understand about like, why are we studying this? Because it's very ironic, like during during, you know, in elementary school, middle school and high school.

1:08:42 We know that it's a big ocean, you know, island countries, but we never really told that the significance of the marine resources back then. So it's it doesn't occur to me that marine science becomes kind of like an important kind of subject. So in the first few years, it was really kind of like a terrible learning experience because I didn't really realize that all of this important and significance. But in third year, I eventually started to love it because I started my internship. I started to learn about the whales and all of this charismatic megafauna. I started my first internship with WWF in 2014. That was my first experience to be exposed in the shark science.

1:09:26 Did the university help you with that internship or was that something you saw after like outside? It was Yeah, that was a good question. It was something that I seek outside because the university at a time doesn't have kind of like conservation focus. So it's mostly on biotechnology and and, you know, like oceanography. So it's physical oceanographic climatology and things like that. So conservation was kind of like non traditional route back then. Right. So I had to like really find opportunity for myself. And thanks for that. And thankfully, I think at a time like, you know, I've got some connections and really introduced me to this, you know, new realm of shark science with WWF. It's just kind of take off from that.

1:10:14 Was it? We're stories. Yeah, no, that's fine. I mean, this is what I like this kind of stuff because, you know, a lot, there's a lot of internships out there. But sometimes they're very difficult to find. Sometimes you don't hear back. Was it a was it something you just apply, like you found it, you applied for it, and then you got it right away? Or is it something that you had to do extra for or take a long time to learn about it or something like that? Yeah, I think the the good thing is that like NGO in Indonesia back then, like was very open for students. So, you know, if you're still enrolling as an undergrad student, you will you will have the opportunity to get into that experience. But of course, that the process itself is very competitive. So I think at the time, like I was actually lucky somebody dropped off the position after they got accepted.

1:11:05 And then eventually, like, I got called, like, I remember it was like during the weekend, like, Hi, this is Rafi, like, you know, somebody that supposed to start the internship next week actually dropped out. And we have you as a backup. Would you like to join us for the internship? So I said yes. So I think, yeah, it was yeah, sometimes like I didn't hear back. But yeah, it meant to be, I guess. Yeah. Well, well, that's definitely you definitely came to the field like I'd say later than most people, Andrew, that we've had on the podcast. Most, most of them are like by high school, at least they sort of kind of know what they're they want to go in the marine sciences. So it was it was almost like because you got rejected from the medical profession that, you know, the the marine sciences kind of scored a coup.

1:11:52 They got you on board. So yeah, yeah, it was it was it was actually really funny because like when I got into like, my mom gave up to me, it was like, whatever, like whatever program that is open for you just apply. And then marine science is the only program. And then the whole my entire family was like laughing at me. It was like, what are you going to do in marine science? Like, I'm going to be a fisherman. And my mom has this like thoughts about like, oh, no, you're gonna be, you know, gone to the sea for like a few months. And then, you know, fishing and then getting lost at sea and something all of this kind of like, you know, terrifying stuff. That's a mom does. So I think that's kind of like reinforcing the idea of like, you know, I don't even understand what am I doing in this program? Yeah, until the later year that I started to realize myself.

1:12:41 What can I ask? What part of Indonesia you're from, Rafi? What part? From Jakarta originally. Oh, from Jakarta. Okay. Really far away from the ocean. So I didn't grow up with the ocean. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Even though you're in Indonesia is basically a bunch of a lot of islands. Yeah. That's what I have to I have to ask to like, you know, you you and I don't want to dwell on this because I don't want you to feel bad by any means because you've obviously pretty successful getting a PhD. But it's a tough thing to do when you when you apply to like a medical program, something that you've grown up thinking, hey, you know what, I'm going to get into this. This is my path. You know, your family obviously is not necessarily pressuring you to do it, but you know, is excited for you to do it and pushing you towards that way. And then you knock it in. That's a pretty hard thing to take. And then you're going into this program that for you.

1:13:32 And it's kind of funny because here for a lot of people, it's like you cross your fingers to get into these programs. But for you, it was open for you. But you're kind of like, oh, this is like, this is not what I wanted. I'm just going to do it because it'll get it'll get me where I want to go in terms of a degree. Was that a difficult thing for you to come around and how long did it take before you really got excited about marine science? Yeah, I mean, there is. Yeah, I could remember, like, it was a really difficult year in the first two years, like, you know, it's and the university was really far away from my home. It's like 12 hours away driving. So you're staying over your. Yeah, I'm staying over outside. So that was actually my first experience being away from my family, knowing not knowing anybody. So I had to start over by myself, living by myself, you know, making friends, making new friends, stuff like that.

1:14:24 So it was a very tough, like, transition process into, you know, young adults as well. And knowing that I don't know what this knowledge going to be useful for me, you know, and things like that. But I think that I even like in my second year, like I, I decided to apply for a new university program, I applied for architecture program at a time. Interesting. You're still trying to escape. I'm still trying to escape. It was like, and I actually actually got into neighboring universities, like, a way better university program. And I told my mom was like, Mom, look, I got admitted into this architect program.

1:15:08 And then she looked at that me admission cause is like, if you can pay, go ahead. And I was like, I can't do this. And then I think that at the time, like, okay, I'm just gonna swallow and then just gonna accept my baby. Um, and again, like, you laugh, you it's kind of funny, because we laugh about it now, because we know where you where you end up. Yeah. Again, that's another thing where you're like, you're going into a very different like thinking of going into a very different program. How was it? Were you just like very confused at everything? Because I would have been like, sitting there like, where am I gonna go with my life? Yeah. Like, did you talk to any of your professors about it in terms of like, what you can do? Like, how did that all kind of play out?

1:15:56 Yeah, I mean, yeah, you probably went through this as well. But like, you know, being being in this process of transition, a lot of conditions about myself, you know, kind of like, you know, my self confidence, it was really, I think, yeah, it was a difficult process. But I think throughout this, this two years, the things that I just realized is like, I got a lot of things that I overlooked, I made new friends, that I was like, I'm gonna go with my own. And I got new friends, that are really good. And because I'm trying so hard to get away from the program, I actually joined a couple of, you know, university clubs, debating clubs at a time, the English debating clubs.

1:16:40 And I became active in many, you know, student activities that makes me kind of exposed to different kind of experience. I get some new friends from outside of my program that was very enriching. And a lot of these people are, you know, kind of like a support system that that really helps me to thrive in the at the university. And I also really grateful that I had a, an undergrad advisor who who really trusted in my capacity, like he was still in touch. And he even like, you know, provide recommendations for my great graduate application and things like that. It was because like he was very, very, you know, have a faith in the success of my undergraduate program, I didn't have a bad grades, I still get good grades, because, you know, I'm just gonna try to make sure that you know, I still can get out with, with something I can be proud of.

1:17:39 Of course. You know, okay. You know what the, you know what this sound, this is, this is, this is gonna, this is gonna be a way throwback movie for, for both of you guys. And it was probably seen this maybe, but there's a movie came out in 72 called the Godfather with, with Marlon Brando and a young Al Pacino. Yeah. And, and Al Pacino plays like, have you seen that one? Oh, you have to, oh, you have, it's a classic. Three of them, what's the first two? The third, yeah, third ones. Yeah, the first two are just great. But the first one, there's a point in there where he, the Al Pacino character, he's, he's the son of the Godfather and he's, he has a line in there where he says, he goes, every time I want to get out, I get sucked back in.

1:18:21 Yeah. And he goes, he kept wanting to get away from the family and they kept sucking them back in till finally, at the end of the movie, he becomes the Godfather. Yeah. So he takes over for his father. What you just described sounds to me like Godfather. Every time you tried to, every time you tried to get out of the Marine sciences, we just sucked you back in. It's a little different and little, and yours is a little safer, but. Yeah, they were. It's not a mafia, but you're different. Well, some people call us the shark mafia, but yeah. Yeah, that's true. That's true. So that's literally how this pop into my head. Like, oh my God. And all you young people out there, if you haven't seen the movie, the Godfather, go see it. The first two are just for not classic, classic movies.

1:19:03 So anyway, so yeah, so, so you, so you joined the mafia now the Marine science mafia crew. And so, cause we keep sucking you back in at what point did you just, did you kind of veer into, you got interest in the megafauna, like the Marine mammals and the lard, or the fishes, I assume as well. When did you kind of sway into like sharks? Yeah, this is actually where things got really interested because like throughout the process, like after the second year, you know, you got to expose some more kind of like specialized coursework. So I learned a lot of things like conservation of marine resources, conservation of marine biology, conservation of marine biodiversity, marine biotechnology.

1:19:47 So I learned a lot of all of the school stuff. And then I actually found a pathway where I feel like, OK, maybe I can still pursue medical science through biopharmacology. Yeah, I think you're still trying to get out. Yeah, I'm still trying to like be, you know, be relevant in the medical science world because I feel it's really cool to learn about like sponges and algae actually useful for, you know, production of antibacteria and anti viruses and things like that. So I actually started to to be very passionate on that. In addition to learning about, you know, sharks after my internship with WWF and I got introduced by the DNA research of sharks at the time I joined another internship in the next year with Indonesian Biodiversity Center.

1:20:34 The name now, Biomesia, that focus on the forensic research for shark trade at a time because shark issues becomes very, very prevalent in Indonesia. There's a lot of research and funding coming in. It was my first experience doing DNA sequencing and all of this cool technology that I feel like, oh, wow, like this is the medical science in a different world. So I feel like, you know, I got very passionate in there and I decided to do my undergrad thesis on still on biotechnology and stuff like that. So I did research on sea sponges as antimalaria. I got I live my life is literally in the lab. I go in the morning, isolate myself in this room with a pipette and like a glue.

1:21:29 And like the until night, like I just stay there dealing with mosquitoes and extract his punches. And there was like the realizations. I don't want to do this. Like I hate the lab work. I don't want to do this. And I had a different kind of undergrad thesis advisor at a time that we didn't really had a good experience working together. So I feel like I'm just going to run away again. And there's this, unfortunately, working with Mantharé conservation with La Macheara project in La Macheara. So people like Sean Henrich and Mantharé Truss, Sarah Lewis, and I got to meet Sarah and also Mark Erdmann, who two of the people that are still helping me in my professional career right now.

1:22:21 I decided, okay, I'm just going to finish this undergrad thesis as soon as possible. And then I'm just going to join this internship opportunities. And I got I was presented in a completely different reality. You know, I got into La Macheara, which is this small island community in the eastern Indonesia where people have been hunting Mantharé for centuries. So people, you know, do traditional harpoon fishing. They extract the meat for consumption and also the the gill plates for at a time that traditional Chinese medicine demand because in 2015 and 16, the issues are still kind of like climbing up with the demand of of sharp products is really intensified.

1:23:08 But I just at the time, like I just feel a lot of disconnect, like in my undergrad degree, I study about this conservation, but all of that is focused on the ecology and biology of the species. And I got into the community and work with these issues of Mantharé. I feel like no one of my knowledge actually matters. Like, who cares about coral reefs and people are just scared about Mantharé because it helps them to survive. They need the Mantharé for survival, for, you know, for food sources, the money to pay for their education and not the knowledge that I learned over the four years actually relevant to this community.

1:23:51 So it really kind of opened my eyes about like, oh, wow, the knowledge that I learned, there's nothing applicable when it comes to conservation because a lot of the conservations that I learned from this internship with, you know, La Macara Project was a lot about the complex political reality of people. So I started to gain this different experience about reality of knowledge that is not very compatible with with the real life of people in La Macara. And, you know, Mark and Sarah at the time were really helping me to understand more about, you know, how conservation can actually be something career wise, it's something that I can pursue.

1:24:42 And I become very, very passionate about like, okay, so we understand that Mantharé deserves some form of protection. But then conservation may pose some kind of, you know, very difficult choice for people because at one point you have to, you know, cut off the supply of the Mantharé products. But at the same time, you don't want to make sure that people are not socioeconomically impacted because a lot of this practice is actually it's part of the tradition. So they've been hunting this animals for hundreds of years and then suddenly, you know, there are some demands of conservation to happen in Indonesia.

1:25:31 And at the time in 2014, the national protection of Mantharé takes place. It creates a lot of backlash within the community. I remember like, as recently, you know, graduated young people coming into the island, we had to be evacuated because we came there alongside the Ministry of Marine Affairs, who just come there to say like, hey, we just got this new regulations about Mantharé ban. So basically Mantharé fishing has been banned. But it's a very kind of like top down process. There's no consultation. So people are really upset.

1:26:15 So and, you know, when when when I was there, people are like, you know, already gathered outside of our house, they're really they're really upset. And then like we have to be evacuated through the back door because people have already like surrounded our the place that we say they said that they're really opposed conservation. And also because of the, you know, the minister came to the island at the time. So, yeah, it was it was a very difficult situations regarding conservation because, you know, people resist and they have kind of like a violent intention to kind of hurt people who work for conservation.

1:27:02 But I think it, you know, it was it was really a difficult experience, but I think it really kind of like spark the questions within me and even like my PhD research right now is actually still trying to resolve that question and partly what inspired the tradition of Indonesia as well. And I think, you know, I am a marine biologist by training. I studied the sharks, but, you know, I realized that the you know the sharks are important for conservation and for protections for biodiversity, but at the same time, like a lot of Asian communities are, you know, are depending on them for life loads and for food. So how do we balance that issue to make sure that nobody is being negatively affected?

1:27:55 Now, why now you obviously you're talking about manor a's there, but now you started your thing as a Thresher shark foundation. Now, why did the obviously another man to trust is very involved there. Well, how did you how did you end up landing on Thresher sharks? Yeah, I after my internship, you know, I finished for about like three, four months. I come back to Jakarta looking for jobs. The fun time. Yes, the fun time, you know, and marine science was not very popular back then. Like nobody needs marine science graduates. And like, I think a few months without jobs and in my mom gives like, where are you going to work? Like, use your use your degree and whatever.

1:28:41 And eventually I reached out back to Sarah. Sarah Lewis, like, Hey, Sarah, like, it's been really difficult for me to find a job. If there is an opportunity, I would like to come back to La Mecara and work. And Sarah eventually offered me two, two job positions. The first one is yeah, and she was like, over immediately, like there are two positions, one in Raja Ampat for men tray issues and also in Roti, which is a new project that was just established. And Roti is like this southern most island in Indonesia. It's really close to Australia. So it's a very, very remote place. Water is difficult. Electricity is sometimes there is electricity sometimes not.

1:29:34 I immediately choose Raja Ampat because it's like a no brainer like Raja Ampat is one of the, you know, everybody wants to go through Raja Ampat. And, and I spent for about two years there working on the issues. It's completely different. It's still conservation, but completely different issues. So, Raja Ampat is has been very successful in establishing the marine protected area, shak sanctuaries and men tray populations actually thriving there. But the issue is mostly related to tourism. So, in addition, government has been heavily promoted Raja Ampat as the sanctuary for men trays. There's a lot of tourists coming there and issues regarding offer tourism and people, you know, chasing men trays when they're diving and crushes of men trays and the boats because there's no speed limit around the men tray aggregation sites.

1:30:32 And I think that's my role at the time, like just resolving those issues working with the tourism operators and local communities who are managing the dive centers to make sure that you know there's some protocol of sustainable tourism practice for men tray diving. So I spent for two years. I feel again like I think it's kind of like a you know, being a relatively young person and Raja Ampat has been kind of like a very successful case study of conservation in Indonesia or probably in the world. And the conservation initiative has been going on for two decades there. I feel not satisfied, like, don't get me wrong, you know, like, living there is amazing and you know, diving every day and you know, met new people every day.

1:31:19 Yeah. And at one time, like, we did this mantra acoustic tagging with with Mark and Sarah and also one of my former coordinator, Eddie set the one who's also a man tray researcher in Indonesia. I told Mark at the time, like, I don't feel satisfied working here because I feel like my contribution were not that many. And I wanted to start my own work. But I don't really know like where to start. And Mark told me like, oh, there's actually issue about treasure sharks in this island called Allure, which is in the Eastern subtengano region.

1:32:04 So he referred to the story of Sarah and also Sean at the time, like they did an expedition in 2013 with a leaf aboard Finisey leaf aboard and they passed through Allure. They saw there are several people actually fishing for treasure sharks. And, you know, and then they saw there's actually a video that Sean released in 2013. I think it was it was a film for a sitees meeting a cop meeting at 2013 to to bring treasure shark into the appendix appendix to, I guess, at a time.

1:32:46 So Sean was making some videos. All of these communities are landing treasure sharks. But there is no conservation organizations in the area. And frankly, there's no information about the treasure shark fishing practice. And it seems that people have been doing that for so many years because it's a quite a unique practice. They use this fishing line. So there are about four to five hooks, like a very large hooks. They stack all together and then they put something like a chicken fetters and, you know, sparkling strings.

1:33:26 And they, you know, they put all of these chicken fetters in the in the hooks. And when you put that hooks under the water and then the chicken fighters start, you know, being hit by the current and stuff like that, it mimics a school of fish. And, you know, the way that treasure shark fishing is to is to use the tail. Yeah, the slap it. Yeah. And then when when they hit the hooks, the tail will will get stuck in there. I'll go by tail first. Yeah, they go by tail and people have learned this practice at a time like, you know, nobody knows about that practice. We start to discover the information after we start the project.

1:34:10 And people actually like, you know, shift it. So today they catch the treasure sharks and then they cut open the stomach. They found, OK, there's some squids, meaning that there's a lot of squids in the ocean. So tomorrow they will use the sparkling strings because it's because underwater it looks like squid because it's like, you know, it's shiny and, you know, it looks like the movement of squid. And if tomorrow they saw like some anchovies, they will use the chicken fetters. That's fascinating. Yeah, it's very fascinating. They shift the type of bait every day, depending on the the behavior, the feeding behavior of the sharks. Anyway, I think that at a time like the story about treasure shark was really intriguing.

1:34:57 And Mark was like, go ahead. If you want to start your own project, he said, like, I would be happy to fundraise some money for you so you can do some basic survey about about this information. And I was so intrigued with the idea. I was like, yeah, I would like to I would like to do that. And I actually reached out to my co-founder, Deiwe. She was my internship friend with La Macara. So we did an internship together in La Macara. There at the time she was doing her master's at the University of Queensland. She herself also kind of like got into an accident to marine science because she did.

1:35:42 She did a chemistry undergrad and she works in pharmacy and in, you know, in pharmacy industry and she hated the industry and she decided like, okay, I'm just gonna go into marine science and she did master's in environmental management and work with Manthray. But she was more interested in the idea of community development and also conflicts related to, you know, human and wildlife and things like that. And we work well together during the internship. And then I reached out to David, like, hey, I have this idea about like, you know, doing a project. Do you want to do you want to start doing this together because, like, you know, we both have the same interest and things like that.

1:36:30 So we started to develop a new proposal to conservation leadership program. So it's a consortium at a time, Fauna and Flora International, WCS and Birdlife International. So they're based in Cambridge in the UK. So they gave around like 12,000 USD for, you know, one year project. Deiwe and I just decided invited two other people, Agustin and Eka. They're no longer with the project, but they and I are still with the organizations right now. And we got the money. So with the help of Mark as well and also Sarah, you know, we got some input about how to make a good proposal and research design.

1:37:17 And I think once we get the money, I think it's start kind of like take off from there. We discover some new, some information. And the funny thing is like when when we first got into the island, it's kind of like an expeditions of the island, really, like, because there's some there's some department of marine and fisheries affairs and the conservation organizations that exist in the island was only WWF who exclusively working on marine tourism at that time. When we got into the island, we did survey, we asked everybody, like, have you seen the shark? Have you seen the stretchy sharks? And even the Department of Marine Affairs, like, nope, there's no sharks like this. Like, we've never seen that before. Like, you know, nobody knows about it. And we asked also people from WWF, like, they've never seen any sharks like that.

1:38:15 And the way that we discovered the village was because the, you know, the person from the person that that be tripped together with Sean and Sarah on 2013, the Finisi owner, she already passed away. So she has a staff and they told us, oh, the village name is the village of the village when the sun rises. They called it there. And they changed the village name, like three years ago. So we tried to find where this village is. We go across the island for the entire day.

1:38:56 Nothing we could find. And at one point, like during the afternoon at four or five p.m., I think we passed through this small village. And we saw literally two people are dragging the tail of treasure sharks on the shore. And that's where we we started to like, oh, my God, this, this shark is here. And then the village is real. Like, it's not a fiction village that we couldn't find anywhere. And we were like, oh, my God, we're not going to find any. And yeah, I think that's that's where we eventually decided to like stay in the village and learn more about the people. So it's a very long story. I couldn't know that's where the people welcoming when you found out.

1:39:38 They are. Yeah, because at a time, like our intention was just like we want to know, you know, their practice, like how long they've been fishing the sharks. What was the motivation? Is it for for subsistence? Is it for, you know, the the the fin markets or something like that? So it's a it's a clear kind of like questions that we just want to know. Yeah, we don't want to do anything regarding conservation. We just want to understand what what people are doing in there. And at the time, like we disguise ourselves as an undergrad student because technically daily is still doing her master's at Queensland. And I just finished my undergrad, like two years after my undergrad, I said, like, I'm still at university.

1:40:25 I'm doing this research and they're like, they're happy to like, you know, helping us. Yeah, help a student out. Yeah. These are these are all pelagic threshers, correct? You're working on the are pelagic threshers. Yes, the pelagic. Do they get do they get the big eye or any of the others? Big guy at all? No. Yeah, we just found the pelagic. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So you got this program going. I got to ask you, like, so how did you end up at University of California, Santa Cruz? Yes. So we did the project for about two years, right? And this is where the reality about starting an NGO starts to become very difficult because like, okay, we have this 12,000 USD for start. And then, you know, we eventually finished the project.

1:41:14 And we, with the help of Mark and Sarah, we secured additional funding for satellite tags. We just, you know, trying to understand the movement at a time like, oh, because this is the only opportunity for us to do the tagging because we can ask people like, can you help us to catch the sharks? And we measure the, you know, whether the sharks, they're being lifted to the surface can still survive or they die. And then eventually the sharks actually pretty resilient. So after they're being, you know, dragged up to the surface from the depth of like 200 300 meters, we released them and they can still swim and disappear into the depth.

1:42:02 So we did tag one with satellite tags. It reveals very, very interesting movement. It was the first sharks that we ever tagged in Indonesia, because the sharks is very elusive. So it's not like manta rays, their surface. And then you can just, you know, use some spear and then put some tags on the back of the manta ray. But this was the opportunity for us to study them. And Mark was like, Mark was really excited. It was like, it could be a lab for studying treasure sharks because you basically can can catch them and tag them and release them safely. And but I think like during the first and the second year, like it's just really hard to fundraise for the study about, you know, human interactions because a lot of a lot of the grand landscape at a time, we're more interested in kind of like ecological research.

1:42:58 So the money runs out and daily finish her master's degree. And she started a new job at the time. And I didn't have a job. I ran out of the money and even like during the project, like I didn't get paid. I just survived with the with the grand man because he can pay for my food and for my accommodation. But it doesn't pay my salaries. So like, at one point, I feel like, oh, I need to survive too. Like I need to find a job.

1:43:38 Yeah. And, you know, eventually I landed this position with UNDP, the United Nations Development Program as a fisheries officer. But it was a short term program. And as I'm doing, I was thinking about, like, okay, how are we going to continue this work with treasure sharks because we've been struggling to fundraise and, you know, and we still have to do our full time jobs, each of us. So, like, I think at a time, like, okay, you had your master's. So I think it's probably my time to do a master's. And I actually told Mark at a time like, I don't think I will continue this treasure shark project anymore because like, you know, funding wise, it's difficult.

1:44:29 And I think doing a master's probably, you know, a good opportunity for me. And UC Santa Cruz was the one that opens. And I applied for that one. I was wait listed. I was like, oh, Dan, I didn't get into the program. And then eventually, I think a few weeks later, somebody dropped off and then I got into a primary selection was like, okay, I got in. And I think the during my master's, yes, sort of kind of the stories really. And during my master's, like, I got exposed for your first time on theory about, you know, social science and policy.

1:45:15 And I started to draw from all of this field experience about like, you know, conflicts between livelihoods, survival and the need for conservation. And during my master's, because the program is like one year coursework and then the second year you have to do your full capstone. So it's practical, it's kind of like a professional degree, really. And I got a lot of support from Don from from and my professor, the director of the program and professor, he's a Santa Cruz are really, really kind and helpful.

1:45:57 At a time, I still thinking about like, oh, maybe I should like explore something else. At a time, Don was actually encouraging me to look at other topic. So I explore other topics about like locally managed marine areas or more kind of like social science direction, rather than the sharks. And then I was like, you know, I'm not really sure like what I'm gonna do. I don't know, like my capstone project, what it's gonna be because treasure shark project at a time like it's basically dormant. We don't have any money. We don't have, you know, any any presence and in the island because both the way and I already out of the island there in Jakarta, I mean, in Santa Cruz.

1:46:40 And at one point, Mark called me like, Hey, Rafi, we just secured this money to do some acoustic research and some satellites, I think he secured around like 80,000 USD or something. If if you want, we can use the money for your capstone project, your, you know, your your master's degree. And I was so unsure. It was like, oh, gang, I actually want to try something else. Now Mark got this money. I have to go back to work with sharks. I was so torn. Yeah, and I told Mark, like, I don't know, like, I think I want to explore something else. Like, you know, I don't I don't want to work with sharks anymore because like, you know, it's been pretty difficult with, you know, with with one year without any salaries.

1:47:34 I don't want to get into that anymore. Right. And he was like, oh, but I got this money just so you can work on it. I don't want to get I don't want to take the money from you. You don't want to work with the project because this money is practically a reserve for your project. I was like, oh, damn. OK. I guess like I mean, it's a good problem because like, I don't have to worry about funding anymore. But thankfully, I think during this covid, I got to be in the island full time and working fully with my project.

1:48:20 So the entire the entire year in 2021, while I was doing my capstone, we got a lot of momentum and stories about about the sharks, you know, the acoustic tags that we put on the sharks eventually produce a very exciting results where the sharks. We found out the sharks actually quite resident to the area and then from the satellite tags as well, the sharks actually go out of the island, but then go back to the channel where fishers are, you know, are fishing them. And we have this conclusion about, you know, partial conclusion about like, and I forgot to mention that 80 percent of the sharks that are landed are pregnant.

1:49:04 So, yeah, and we we collected some data on, you know, on the catches when we started in 2018 and there are 300 sharks that are landed in one year and 80 percent of them are pregnant. And interesting story is that like when the you know, when when the sharks being caught on the stomach and they can find two pups inside, sometimes the size already big and then the children will go around the shore. They will gather when the fire call. Hey, there's some shark pups in here. And then the children give some massage to the baby sharks and then the baby sharks comes alive and then they will release it.

1:49:50 So it becomes kind of like a practice that people are so familiar. They said like, oh, yeah, it's actually pretty common for the children to help massaging the baby sharks and then they come back alive. And then we have this notion that probably it's an important, you know, popping grounds for the shark because it's a bay. So if you if you look at the map, like it's a bay. So so people fishing at the mouth of the bay and we put some, you know, acoustic receivers in there and it's true. Actually, we take around 24 sharks. I forgot the exact same. I think seven or nine actually precedent for the for six months.

1:50:34 So for the entire period of six months, they stay there. They don't get go anywhere. And all of them are pregnant females that we that we that we can't do them the tag because it's big and, you know, the size and stuff like that. Now, you continue this now that you're doing your PhD at Duke or you still work continue to work with the Thresher sharks as part of your dissertation. Yeah, that's a good question. So basically the the issue of Trisha shark fisheries now because of Trisha Indonesia, we feel like it's quite successful because we started the intervention of alternative livelihood in 2021 after I finished from Santa Cruz.

1:51:17 You know, we got a lot of attention. Our acoustic tagging was very exciting and people really drawn to the results of our research and we got quite a lot of funding and I got pretty smarter as well on how to write proposals. So I got a lot more confidence in fundraising and stuff like that. And we started the intervention of alternative livelihoods and we cut down the fishing by 90%. So in our best line, which we collected in 2018 fishers can land for about 300 sharks in one year.

1:52:01 And after our intervention is only 50 50 less than 50 sharks being landed. So we reckon that, you know, like the intervention works because people decided, okay, once they were being provided by equal Live little opportunities. So some of them start a land based business like starting kiosks. They sell some some goods in the village. Some of them decided to stay fishing. They fish for red snapper and tuna and we provide some provisions like like boats and stuff like that. And they feel like their new livelihoods provide some kind of equal Yeah, or even better better than the shark fisheries and yeah, this decides to stick with it. Yeah. How do you feel about being one of the keynote speakers at the sharks international this year? I would say it's it's I didn't really expect that like suddenly I got an email like, Hey, congratulations. You guys like there was like, well as a keynote. I didn't really expect that. Yeah. Yeah.

1:53:08 Oh, congratulations on that. Yeah, that's a huge, huge, huge honor. And that huge honor. And that's what I think. Yeah, so so I so I guess where do you see your career going from here now? Well, that is a that is a difficult question. Because now with with with my PhD, I'm actually still weighing whether I want to get into academia or, you know, stay in more kind of like in practitioner route. I do a lot of research. I really passionate about the topics that I'm currently working in. And I think I didn't get to answer questions about the research. My research about my PhD is now focused on Mantharay back to La Mechera where I when I first started about the issues of conservation.

1:54:24 So the topic will be about, again, issues of livelihoods and conservation. And that's kind of like the topic that I'm really interested in right now. And I feel like it's it's an area where Indonesia is so promising for academic research in that area. So probably I would I would continue to pursue some research opportunities. And at the same time, I'm really hopeful that I can continue as well and nurture the organization that's distracted Indonesia that I have right now because we have three different sites, one in Alor, one in Flores now focus in mobile arrays and the others in in Bandar. And we employ now 25 young people to work.

1:55:07 When we started, I cannot even pay myself. Now we employ 25 people, which is quite unbelievable. So I think and and and I think one that I feel really, really optimistic was because all of those people, all of the people that we hired are indigenous to the area. And they started to see the value of conservation, like on 2021, you know, after I finished my master's, my dad eventually passed away because of COVID. Yeah, thank you. And I think that was kind of like another turning point, like, you know, and my mom was alone in Jakarta. I was in Alor and my mom was asking me, like, is it possible for me to come back to Jakarta and looking for a job there to be with her?

1:56:06 Because I have a sister, but my sister married and she lives really far away from my mom and have a little brother who is still in school. And she was asking me to to be with her. And during that time, like I discussed with my teams, like, I think I think we're just going to close Indonesia for good right now because like, you know, it's just so stressful. And I feel like I cannot be here. And, you know, I have to do it with my mom and and, you know, the people, all of them crying, like they, you know, like they don't want the project to be closed. And they started to see the value of working. It's something that they really care about. And they say, like, you know, it's serving their own communities, like the environment they live in and things like that.

1:56:57 And I think that, like, the thing that makes me optimistic is that I want more young people to be involved. So I guess it's one way of how my career could be could take some place as well. I want to continue to nurture the organization. I want to continue higher more young people and kind of giving the skills that I've received from Santa Cruz, from Duke. So there are these young people then who will take up the leadership opportunities later on. So they at some point, probably they will not need me anymore. And I think that's kind of the thing that I think that's really important. So I think it will kind of like proliferate more, you know, more generations of indigenous leaders in the area.

1:57:44 And there's also the message that my professor at Santa Cruz and said, like, Germany has done something good to you. The way for you to pay for the way for you to to pay back is actually to pay forward to the next person. to say that I think like I've received a lot of kindnesses from people during my masters and even right now during my PhD. I just wanted to make sure that more generations of Indonesian conservationists could also receive that through me. Yeah, I can open some doors for them.

1:58:27 And they will do the same to others. So once they feel like they can give back. So I think it's kind of like giving this kind of snowball effect. So I guess those are the career that I kind of envision. Well, that's an amazing story. We really congratulate you on giving the keynote. And we'll definitely have to have you back, come back on here and see how you're doing. You definitely have one of the more unique stories of getting into the field. Like we kept trying to get out and you kept getting sucked back in. And so I'm going to be training other people to be in the field. So we're going to have them. We'll have our eye on you and trust me, you're going to be back here at some point. We're sure PhD. We're going to want to find out how your story continues at that point in time.

1:59:13 But anyway, thank you very much for coming on. And I, I'm looking for it. I'll be at it. I'll be at sharks international and looking forward to meeting you in person and catching up and stuff. So anyway, thank you very much. Awesome. Thank you for being. Thank you. Thank you for joining us on today's episode of the beyond jobs podcast. Dave, what did you think about this interview? I mean, going from, Hey, I want to be a doctor to studying mandarays and starting his own organization or, you know, where they employ 25 people in Indonesia about pelagic thrusher sharks. That's a pretty cool thing. Yeah, it was amazing. He definitely had, had a unique journey to get to where he's at. You know, going from, like I said, his family wanting to be going to the medics medical field, becoming a doctor and stuff. And he wound up doing sharks. And of course I had, I had to, had to had to chuckle because he's another one who had Marta who was on here as well.

2:00:07 Recently, he ended up one of his advisors was Don Crowl, who of course is a professor at University of California, Santa Cruz. And Don and I went, we did our masters together back at Moss landing Marine Laboratories back in the day. And Don was actually a Marine mammal person and he still is, but somehow he's dabbled into the whole manor a field and stuff. And it was just kind of a small world thing. And you really, you realize how small our field is just in the marine sciences. And you realize, you know, people you have on there, you would think you have no connection with someone, you know, in a different field. And here they are. So, um, Don, if you're listening, if we have one more student on here that you had, we're gonna have to have you on the podcast and talk about something, something kind of Drick the, and I don't know what figure it out. We'll figure it out.

2:00:49 But yeah, I know, right. Pete had a, had a, has a pretty, pretty interesting story. And I really hope everyone enjoys the thing. We'll, we'll come back and talk about it afterwards. Absolutely. Yeah. No, it was wonderful to be able to speak to, to Rafi because, you know, such a young, young gentleman from living across the world from us anyway, coming over to the U.S. to continue to do some, some different things that, that are, you know, part and sometimes part and not part of what he does at the, at the Threshold Sharks International. I think it's something, um, it's a, he's a co-founder, I should mention, he's not the only founder, but he's a co-founder. But I think it's something interesting to see how he's, you know, they're continuing to do these things and he's changing the way people see sharks in Indonesia. You know, I think that's, you know, you look at this guy for who, who made a, like set out to be a doctor, ended up being, and he'll be a doctor at some point, just a doctor, a philosophy in fish doctor, and specializing in sharks. And I think it's, it's interesting how you see career paths change. You know, I, I coach, uh, girls hockey and at the U18 level. And a lot of these girls are going into university and they have a set path. And I, I, I kind of tell them, I said, just be open to every path.

2:02:07 You know, those who have like a set path that they want to go to, I'm like, it, it may not be what you, what do you expect to be? It might be, but it may not be where you end up. So just be open to new experiences, to new things. Uh, and for those who don't know what they're doing, I'm like, you're probably in a better situation because, you know, you'll be able to be a little bit more open-minded in what you want to do. And, and I think that, that is a, is a big thing. You know, I went in, you know, marine biology, science, science, science research. I thought I was going to be out in the field all the time and all that. And I did do that. Now I ended up in comms, you know, it's, it's not like a slight shift, but still a shift in terms of how you approach, uh, work-wise, uh, you know, how, what, what you're doing on a day-to-day experience, all that kind of stuff. So, um, and that shifts more towards what I like. And, and so you just never know what you're going to do.

2:02:52 Uh, Raffid is, is a perfect example of that. And he's done a pretty good job. Uh, not that I wouldn't say he would have been, he wouldn't have been a great doctor, but he's done a pretty good job so far of, of leading this, this new generation in terms of what he's been able to accomplish for the shark species. So I, I appreciate what he's done. It was, it was really great to know, uh, Raffid and, and we're looking forward to having him back on to see what else he's up to throughout, throughout his career. So, um, so yeah, uh, with that, we, uh, we'll send you guys off. We want to thank you guys for joining us. And if you have a great story or you just want to listen to more stories, uh, and get in contact with us, Dave, how do they get in contact with you? Uh, lost shark guy on Instagram, uh, Facebook, or just to go through the beyond jaws, uh, YouTube channel or one of the podcast things and just catch it and get ahold of me there. Also San Jose state university, uh, Moss landing marine laboratories.

2:03:47 Perfect. And if people want to get ahold of like the podcast in general, we're both on it at beyond jaws pod, uh, for Instagram. And, uh, that's it for today's episode. Thanks again to Raffid for sharing his story. Uh, and we want to thank you guys. If you have any questions or comments, let us know in the YouTube comments below, uh, or, uh, you can just get in touch with, as we said, and, uh, and of course, don't forget to subscribe on YouTube, follow on your favorite podcast app. And we want to thank you so much for joining us on today's episode of the beyond jaws podcast from Dave and I have a great day. We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.