Guitarfish Genetics and Culture in Mexico: Bryan Huerta’s Journey Into Shark Science

1:00:00 On this episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast, we're going to be talking about guitar fish. We're going to be talking about genetics of guitar fish, cultural significance of guitar fish in Mexico, cause we're going to be talking to Brian Huerta Beltran on this episode, talk about his career and his journey, but we're also going to be talking about sharks. It's going to be a lot of fun. Let's start the show. Hey everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. I'm your co-host Andrew Lewin, here with my co-host Dr. David Ebert. Dave, this is a fun episode because, you know, it's been a while since we talked about guitar fish. You know, we did symposium along a long time ago with the wedge fish and the guitar fish, but we also talked about guitar fish over the years, but it's been a little bit since we've talked about guitar fishing. Brian brought the knowledge and brought the fun.

1:00:47 So this is going to be an interesting episode. No, I'm looking forward to it. You know, he was, we're going to have Mon. We did the symposium, which I can't believe it's been four years now. He was just, he was just starting really getting into his masters at the time. And he said, well, why don't you wade Lee finishes up. And so here we are four years later, he's finished up. He's going to be going on to do his PhD and we'll learn here more about that. And, uh, it was great. It was, I'm glad we waited cause it was a way you had a lot more information to share with us than he probably would have four years ago. And just so you people are reminded, he was one of the students that we had helped us behind the scenes a lot on the, uh, on the, uh, episode on the symposium, which is in November of 2021.

1:01:31 And go back and check out those podcasts. If you get a chance to be a lot about a lot of information, a wedgefish, guitar fish, um, giant guitar fish. It was quite a, quite a thing at the time and a lot of information. And you can find out what people are up to and maybe follow along on their careers, see where they're at now. Yeah. You know, I still, I still remember recording those episodes, uh, for the, for the, uh, guitar and wedgefish symposium. We, if people don't remember, we would do about three or four guests per episode, but 20 to 25 minutes each. Uh, they were, they were like information packed episodes and with, with phenomenal people and researchers from literally all over the world. Uh, but, uh, it was, it was a lot of work to do those.

1:02:14 And was it 10 episodes? I think, I think it was something like that. Yeah. And we had about 40 people on, like I would say different people on, yeah, people from 20 countries and like 40 people on. It was just, uh, it was insane, but it was really informative. And a lot of fun, a lot of the people were on there from a lot of the countries. It was their first time being on a podcast and it was an international, quite an international podcast as well. And I think we had about, I think we had about 300 people listening into the podcast, which was a, for a new, for a new podcast, like we were at the time. Yeah. We, we, and it continues to accrue because it's, people go back and listen to it, which is great. Yeah. Yeah. Great to see. And then, you know, having Brian that that was part of that who helped organize it.

1:02:59 Now he's talking about his, the guitar fish and, and his journey, uh, you know, to getting there, to going through his masters and all the other projects that he was a part of and including, we, I even got a little bit of a personal taste of his, his marathon abilities. Yes. Uh, where, you know, he's, he's, he wants to break three hours and I can just imagine it would take me three hours just to go about five miles, you know? So just, I could, I could understand what he's trying to do. Highly respect it. Don't want to do it. That's for sure. It was, it was kind of cool to, to be able to hear that. Um, and I think it's, it's a lot of fun. So here is the interview with, with Brian who had to bell trend and talking about his career and his marathon running. It's a lot of fun, enjoy. And we'll talk to you after. Hey, Brian, welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast. Are you ready to talk about sharks?

1:03:51 Yes. I'm ready to talk about shark. I'm looking forward to it. Love it. Love it. All right. Well, welcome to another Beyond Jaws podcast where we have another rising star in the shark world with our awesome guest, Brian, where to Beltran who recently finished his MSC at the university of Southern Mississippi under the guidance of Dr. Nicole Phillips, who's also been a guest on the podcast in the past. Brian was born and raised in Mexico city, but after completing high school, he went to, uh, wanted to pursue his English as a second language and went to Boston, Massachusetts, which was an important transition for him at the beginning of his educational journey in the United States in 2019 here, Brian earned his bachelor's of science degree in conservation and wildlife at a place I've never heard of before.

1:04:32 Delaware Valley university, which is in some place called Doylestown, Pennsylvania. If you're from Doylestown, please don't get upset. I've just never heard of you. I'm from California, but, uh, but his academic pursuits eventually led him to Mississippi state university. Uh, the Marine fisheries ecology program in Biloxi where he worked with, uh, Marcus Dryman, uh, who's hasn't been on the podcast yet. And I've got to get ahold of him to find out why he hasn't podcast yet. Dammit. Marcus, I'll be in touch with you. Um, anyway, over the next couple of years, Brian participated in a number of long line surveys in the Northern Gulf of Mexico, gaining invaluable experience in marine conservation, particularly focusing on the LASMO breaks pursued his passion for allows makes further by Brian began a master's program at the university of Southern Mississippi and Hattiesburg under the guidance I mentioned of Dr. Nicole Phillips, his master's thesis, which, uh, which he worked on guitar fishes that are marketed as Pez Diablo, which rough, Pez Diablo, which translates to devil fish in English.

1:05:32 And he used molecular techniques to determine the species identified and speak his project was also partly supported by the save our seas foundation. Thanks save our seas, uh, throughout his academic journeys. And Brian's engaged in a diverse range of research projects as a master's students. He's a author, a coauthor nine scientific papers. Wow. That's pretty amazing for a master's student. And he continues to contribute to filling knowledge gaps. Now his approaches as he's finished his master's thesis, he's going to be starting up a PhD program next year in the Cole's lab. And we'll hopefully find out a little bit today more about what he's planning to do. He's also committed to continuing his dream of becoming an Elasmo Brank researcher.

1:06:12 Um, Brian, by the way, he also served as a student assistant for the wedge fish and guitar fish symposium that we did back in November of 2021 as part of the a American Elasmo Brank society symposium. And Brian's also a marathon runner, which we'll hopefully hear about a little more about today. And with all of that, Brian, welcome to the show. Uh, thank you. Thank you so much today for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. It's a honor. Thank you so much. Great. Great. Well, question we always like to ask our guests is how'd you get interested in sharks and rays and marine science? Well, it's been it's been a while ever since I was a kid. I always been like, I love animals. Like I used to have so many pets as a kid. And then, um, in high school.

1:06:57 Um, so I'm from Mexico City and we have a very big fish market is called Landlava Vega. So it's supposed to be one of the, it's supposed to be one of the largest fish markets in the world. So for fun, I, I, I like to go to those fish markets and see like what species I could find. And so sharks have always been interesting because I remember like I, I used to have the sharks of the world from Campanio. I think it's 2005 that little field guide. I used to go there to the fish markets and try to find like different sharks. So as I started like digging more into all like different species I could find, I started realizing that we don't know for that much for many species.

1:07:52 So that's what it like fired me to like start studying like marine biology. Then, um, so, you know, like in science, you need to talk English. So it's like every, like all papers, everything has to be in English. So when I finished my high school, I didn't speak English at all. Like nothing. So I decided to go to, well, I had the opportunity to go to an English school in Boston, Massachusetts. There I stay, I stay there. Like it was like a year. And then after I finished my English school, I had the opportunity to go to that place that they've mentioned that he doesn't know what it is. It's called Delaware Valley University, where I'm majoring wildlife conservation and management. So I, I was able to get my bachelor's degree in science, um, from an American school after like taking English as a second language. And then, um, how, how difficult was that to go like, you know, one year taking English from not speaking English before moving to the U S learning English in one year and then going to a university where I assume it was predominantly English, like for the coursework. And I mean, how, how much of a challenge is that for someone to do that? Cause I, cause Dave, I'll be honest.

1:09:19 I can't imagine myself going to Mexico learning Spanish for a year and then doing, you know, university in Spanish, like doing scientific, like a scientific course load in Spanish for four years. There's no way I'd be able to succeed at that. How hard was that Brian for you? Oh, well, so like, so when I go to Boston, like it was very challenging. Um, so my English, it was very basic at that time. Yeah, it was just enough to move around, but, um, I was lucky enough that I also stay with, uh, like a host family host. Yeah. Okay. Post family. Yeah. They were from, from the area from Massachusetts. So I was able to, they had, they had a lot of patience with me.

1:10:03 So eventually I started like feeling more comfortable and comfortable, like being able to speak, but yeah, it was, it was, it was difficult. Sometimes I was like about to give up. I was like, I think, I think I should just go back. I'm more, it's, you know, it's more comfortable, like for sure. It's big in your home country. And like, don't worry about the language barrier, but, uh, I think I came across with the right people throughout all these bad. So that helped me. Yeah. It has helped me to succeed so far. How can you pick Boston versus like the Southwest US, like California, Arizona, Texas, New Mexico.

1:10:46 Yeah. So my reasoning behind this, it was like, I want to be as far from Mexico, like, because if I go to, if I go to Texas, there's going to be a lot of like, uh, Spanish people. So, I mean, I wanted to practice English as much as possible, as much as I could. Okay. Yeah. So I, I mean, there are Spanish speakers everywhere. I didn't, I didn't know that much at that time, but I think Boston, it was like, okay, Boston seems to be the farthest from Mexico. It's true. Yeah. It's pretty fun. Same thing from California. Like there's, oh yeah. Oh yeah. No, I, yeah. I mean, that's what I was thinking too.

1:11:26 If you go, if you're in, if you're in California, there'd be a lot of Spanish speaking people who could probably help you out. But I, I see what you mean is like, put me in a place where I can't speak Spanish as much as I would like to, to find out. Yeah. I mean, I think that's, that's a, that's a, that's a challenge that, uh, I don't know, sure any, a lot of us can do. So that's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. And then doing a degree too. Yeah. Yeah. And then I got my degree and I, and you know, it's like, it's like mentally tiring too.

1:12:07 Of course. Like trying to translate like, oh, like from switch from one language to another. So, but yeah, it's been a whole journey. How did you, how did you, I got to ask you like, so you're, you go to Boston to do this program, which I can understand getting as far away from states that speak Spanish. So you're there for a year. And at this time you want to, you're, you're pretty much dialed in. You want to do marine science and sharks at this point. Yeah. Well, at this point, I wanted to do more something more. Yeah. More with conservation and management. Like I didn't care particularly because I always wanted to do more conservation and management.

1:12:49 So I wanted to focus with animals, but it's still like I was like, whether marine biology or something with, um, or herpetology or something. Yeah, herpetology, but still I'm like very interested in like in management. And like where I mentioned, like in going to the fish market, I think more conservation and management. was like whether marine biology or something with... Or herpetology or something. Yeah, herpetology. But still I'm like very interested in like in management and like what I mentioned like in like the going to the fish market you can see like why it's important. So okay okay being a fishing nerd I have to ask you about the the fish market question because I've been to a lot of fish markets around the world. Is it the fish market in Mexico? I've heard it's a big one but I haven't been there but I've been to some like the Tokyo one which is massive. Yeah, it's the right.

1:13:31 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you can spend days walking around it. It's huge. The one in Mexico is it is is the fish that come in there is it just from Mexican waters or is it from international as well? It is mostly probably like probably 90% from Mexico but from the Mexican-exclusive economic zone. So like from the Pacific and also like the Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean. I think sometimes they get sharks pretty much like body trunks already could be also from it could be also from the US or from Central America too. Okay, because Mexico is a pretty they're a shark fishing eating country. Yeah, we eat a lot of shark like as Cassone. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so so well, okay, so you're up there. So you're ahead. You were going to the fish markets, which is great to do. I think every every kid should do that in my mind, but that's my opinion. But but what you so how did you pick? I have to add how did you pick Delaware Valley University University in Pennsylvania? So at that time, so that time I was in my girlfriend. Ah, woman's involved. Okay.

1:14:47 Yeah, a girlfriend was involved my ex girlfriend. Yeah, of course. Yeah, she she's from Massachusetts, but she was like, Oh, look at this school is like is still nearby Massachusetts. There's only like five hours away from Pennsylvania. Yeah. So that's like the like the main reason and the program is like it was very unique. Like it's called like wildlife management and conservation. So there's not really that many universities they offer such program. So that's what like, sold me like I was like, Okay, that sounds like a good idea. And also what I like it a lot of this university was like it was it's a really small university. So pretty much like, in my classroom, I was basically the only international student.

1:15:38 The rest of them, they were like from the US. So that was also like a little more challenging to Yeah, yeah, not having a lot of students. Yeah, I'm sure if I was back East, I'd probably be more familiar with it. I just didn't know it didn't know anything about her when his program was it. Did you have a good time was a good school there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was wonderful. I got like great professors and I got like a like the since the classes were really small to like they were like that many students involved. Probably like about 30 students 20s. Yeah. So it was good like to like you get to meet them. Well, you're right. Okay, okay. So I think that was also like really important for my like growth to right right. So you finished up there. Did you were so how so what was your so you finished up there? Yeah, yeah.

1:16:29 So what was your so you finished you got your college degree and then you're yeah, so what so when when you finish when you like get a degree in the US you you have an opportunity that is called OPT is called optional practice training is a visa. So you can work for one year or two years depending on your major, but it has to be related with your field, right? So so I apply for that after I finished my I got my degree and I saw that internship opportunity in Mississippi State University with Dr. Marcus Raimond and I'm one of the requirements. He was like being comfortable to dissecting sharks like like being okay with that.

1:17:17 I was like, this is easy like this is I do that all the time when I in Mexico at the fish market and like I know that so I remember I was like I'm gonna apply to this internship and see what happens really that was only my option. I put a lot in that application a lot of effort and I was like, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna go for it and hopefully and see what happens. And I also remember email email Marcus telling hey like I I've been at the fish market like how I have all like like this experience and so on. So eventually I got the internship and that was wonderful because then I was I was an intern with Marcus who does a lot of the shock research in the in the North and Gulf of Mexico, which I was able to learn a lot to their.

1:18:15 Yeah. Okay, cool. Okay. So you were so you're working along there. Were you at that point? Did you have any idea what you're going to do after that? Are you just on skills? Yeah, no, I mean, I know I know I wanted to get my master's degree and I know I wanted to focus on sharks like okay, that was like my my goal like and I knew I wanted to do that. How did what was it was a point you said like I'm going to do sharks. Was there any? So low or is it one big thing? He's like, what's that say? Was it was it something you slowly came to or was it just you decide one day I'm going to do sharks? No, it was like after like going to the fish markets. I started like, okay, like having a passion with like with sharks pretty much like realizing that I think I was getting good at identifying recognizing many species.

1:19:08 Okay. And then I started realizing realizing that the fish market it was like it was a wonder wonderful resource to see like so many species. Yeah, for example, so many species that they're prohibited in the US. They are not in Mexico. So I have like access to so many stuff. Yeah. So you went to so you went to work with Marcus for a couple of years. Yeah, learned a lot of skills there. Yeah, so we used to do like bottom long line strolling got the opportunity to tag tag sharks and work up sharks like they do a lot of measurements of vertebra like they do a lot of like age and growth studies. So I got a yeah, I got some experience there.

1:19:59 And then I knew I wanted to do sharks and I always like I said, I mean, like more focused kind of like in taxonomy to kind of. And I remember talking with Marcus and I think we both agree that I think it would be really useful to also incorporate genetics in my knowledge and in my set skills because because it could be very useful for taxonomy too. Yeah. He he Marcus, I think like in the shark world is crazy like everyone is super interconnected everyone knows everyone so Marcus knows Nicole and then he put a war on me and on the economy and then Nicole took me as her master student and then I started learning genetics.

1:20:53 Okay, okay. Okay. And so, so you started in your project there. So what did how did you how did you come up with this this project you talk about the project you developed. Yeah, yeah, with the past. Also, I mean, like, you know, like guitar fishes have been a conservation concern. Well, like it's getting like more popular as, as you know, I think that big paper from I think it's all like the 2016 is like our guitar fish is the next selfish is you know what paper what? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was it I thought it came out maybe I think it's 2016. See, you know, 14. I don't know. It's something like that. It's like somewhere over there. But yeah, basically, yeah. Go ahead. I remember going. So, like when I was a child going to Veracruz, that's a Mexican state in the Gulf of Mexico.

1:21:51 And they used to sell this modified guitar fishes. So in Mexico, they got guitar fishes to look like devils like Pezia. Well, like alien likes. So I remember sitting at a souvenir stand. And I remember, I told Marcus like, well, in Mexico, we have like this type of trade that I think no one has ever really documented. So I started thinking more like trying to find likes doing more research. And yeah, like there is literally there is only like really short accounts that people caught in modifying just modifying the guitar fishes to look like Pezia.

1:22:34 So, so in Mexico, we have we have many I think support supposedly we have eight species of guitar fishes from the genus of the vatas. I mean, the distribution is still like it's still the taxonomy as I mentioned, it's still a lot is a lot needs to be done in that group, but I didn't define the guitar fishes that they are motivated is almost like really hard because like they remove like morphological characteristics. So genetics, that was like the perfect methodology to identify to the species level. So I end up collecting several pays Diablo, like modify guitar fishes and and use genetics to identify which species are being traded. Yeah. So, so what's the you might have said this already. I'm just trying to understand like what's the is it like a cultural thing these these. Yeah. So, so I mean, this tradition.

1:23:42 So the very first record from modified modified guitar fish can be traced from the 1930s. But people people do it for mostly two reasons. One, like as I joke, like a hoax, like, oh, look, this because they look like aliens, they look like devils. Yeah, because the nerves and the mouth, like, I'll send you some pictures. But yeah, they look. And another. So in Mexico, another reason is they use it for alternative medicine. They they sell it like to cure cancer or treatise like like other like this is I mean, it's like I don't think it works right but just so people understand. In fact, once you post this episode here, we'll post some pictures of this. So yeah, yeah, I'll send you some pictures.

1:24:38 I've seen this, but it's basically they dry the guitar fish, correct? Yeah. So they're like, I'm not sure. They well first they they remove like the rock, you know, the Russell Cartilage. So they remove the Russell Cartilage and some they caught several parts of the body and they they try them. Okay, so once they dry, they look like devils or like a little alien. Is it mostly just the head or the whole body? They modify the whole body. Okay, okay. Yeah, mostly seen the heads, but I didn't know that. So it's the whole body they dry. So yeah, I think they dry. So yeah, let's sit. Can I just stop for a second here? Is it so they don't eat the meat at all then? So so for a when the when they sell it for alternative medicine, they grind the drive guitar fish. They grind it and they pull it up.

1:25:31 They put the ground meat on pills on pills. Yeah, they do. Yeah. Yeah, it was. It was very interesting. And as I mentioned before, like, I think it's a good idea to like I think no one has really looked into that. I I've never heard that with with those. I've seen them and I knew they were a little bit had more of like a like you said, like a joke kind of like a joke. Yeah. So yeah, you can find them sometimes here in the like on eBay or Etsy. They call them also Jenny Honeyverse. They go by the name Jenny. Jenny. Yeah, I've heard that. I've heard that term and they can sell for some like here in the United States. I can sell for a couple like hundred dollars. Wow. Yeah. Well, how how's that? So so but if they're going to use it for medicinal purposes like cancer and stuff, they then they grind it up and they like cook it like in a soup or something or a broth. Yeah. So sometimes sometimes they boil it like the meat or as I mentioned, they they grind it up and they they put they put them in on pills.

1:26:35 Mm hmm. Okay. Okay. And then and then okay. So that's that's on the can. Is there any particular cancer or just cancer and general that's what just said like cancer like if you go to like so they usually they sell them like in these traditional medicine markets where like they sell a lot of like plants herbs, you know, like medicinal like alternative stuff. Yeah. So sometimes they have these dry guitar fishes and they say, Oh, this is good for cancer. This is okay. That's that's pretty interesting. Yeah. Is it much outside Mexico? Is it very popular in Latin America or just mainly Mexico? I think it's mainly Mexico. Okay. Well, like for the cancer for cancer or like alternative medicine purposes. But for like as a hoax, I've seen them in like in Europe or like in the US. I think even sometimes in Canada. But they're not real. Yeah. But that's more like for people who like who likes like all these oddities. Right.

1:27:40 Right. Like weird stuff like yeah, you know, like the Jackalope or like yeah, yeah, yeah. What what now because isn't guitar fish generally considered a preferred meat in Mexico? Yeah. So the main where I've seen at the fish market to the the main cows. Yeah, they're mainly target for their meat. Yeah, but they but they but some of them get set aside for these for the for the best Diablo trade is Diablo trade. Okay. Yeah. And that so I assume if it gets set aside for that, it means it's make a little more money than selling for the meal. Yeah, that's where I think I mentioned and I think it was in a safe overseas law. Okay, so like a guitar fish just fresh for their meat at the fish market in Mexico can go for maybe like $2. Okay, well, I love pays the Diablo in Mexico, they can sell for maybe like $20, $20, $20. So there is there's a huge revenue.

1:28:43 Okay, okay. That's how is it to because there's a lot of concern with guitar fishes and everything how to say if they ship them to the US or they export them at all. How is that with cities and all this stuff now with guitar? Yeah, so I think we just I published my first paper about this type of trade because like we don't really know like the extent of international trade. But like there is accounts of people also selling modified guitar fishes in London. But this I think that's from the 70s or 80s something like that.

1:29:27 But I mean, like the guitar they just got recently, I think it was 2023 when they got all the family on their side is yeah, so it was important to to know this trade also exists because it's been like under the radar for so long. As I mentioned, like the first record of a modified guitar fish is from the 1930s. Wow. Okay, okay. So yeah, so it goes back. So it goes back quite a ways and stuff. So are you so when you go to the when you go to the markets, say in Mexico or even places in the US where they sell these things, you try to identify them to the species at all?

1:30:08 Yeah, I tried to do like a my like an educated guess, depending of like certain morphological characteristics available. But so for my project, I was able to, like I mentioned, collect many tissue samples. And we brought them to the US and that was before all the scientists regulations. So I was very lucky to get samples here. Because now it's like super hard with all the new import. And I think I was telling you, Andrew, yeah, paperwork. But yeah, so, and then I so I create, I create my own genetic reference library of all guitar features of the genius cedubatus. Oh, wow. Because, as I mentioned, it's like a whole taxonomically, it's been like a lot of misidentifications. Yeah. So how do you do that? How do you make a genetic library of an entire genius? Well, so I was, so I was very interested in target is called some mitochondrial gene is called the end it to. Okay. So I target these, this gene is from the mom.

1:31:22 And usually is really good for taxonomic purposes, like that gene. So I was able to from actually from people from Ecuador, you know, I've ran a survey is Yeah, I think you were with the dryness of I is from Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like she helped me. And I think some people from Peru to Yeah, I was like from many people from different people from Latin America and Mexico, we collect all the known guitar fish samples from all non guitar fishes from the genius cedubatus. And, and then with primers, I amplify the ND two. So it's kind of like, and then you get kind of like, you get a sequence. So it's kind of like a barcode. Yeah, so it's, and you can tell it's species a species b, species c, etc. Right? Yeah.

1:32:19 So once I have that genetic reference library, I extract also the DNA DNA from my Pezi of the samples. So I was able to match which species they belong to. Did you have to have a number of different individuals for each species to ensure that that was the DNA code that you that that was like specific to that species? Yeah, yeah. So I collect like at least I think was like a minimum of four individuals per species. Okay. Yeah, gotcha. And also, like I asked them to take pictures to, of course. Yeah. Yeah. So I have also like photographic.

1:32:59 That's all because yeah, I wanted to make sure that was the right identification. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's, that's amazing. You got into doing that, especially at a master's level, you had enough foresight to think about doing basically in a set up a genetic database of these things. Yeah, because like literally we don't like for many species, we don't really have any genetic data for for various pieces of the genus of the vatus. Right. And now that they are protected on their side is is like essential to have these databases. Yeah. That's that's that's incredible. It's amazing. You got that.

1:33:41 You got that set up. So so so you got so you get this thing set up. Now you do you do you monitor what goes on in some of the other countries like in Central and South America? Yeah, that's great, but it's very much as far as if they are doing any similar. No, so the right now, just this is that was just for my thesis, I would like to try to identify identify which piece of guitar fishes are sold in the US because so what I saw for my masters the ones that are sold especially in Mexico are all just from the genus of the vatus which makes sense, right? Because they're from Mexico. Did you ever get any of the banjo guitar fish, the Zaptrix?

1:34:27 Zaptrix? No, I didn't get any Zaptrix. Okay. Yeah, no, but also those are really far apart, like genetically they're like-- Oh yeah, I know, but I guess the reason I was asking is because they, would they be something they would use for the PES Dablo? Yeah, I haven't encountered one Zaptrix Really? Yeah. I would-- I have that question too, if like someone has made a PES Dablo based on a Zaptrix. And so far I haven't seen one. So all my samples turned out to be Sudobatus. All Sudobatus, okay. Yeah. Okay, that's interesting in itself.

1:35:09 I mean, if you're got, just for people to understand your home like this other genus Zaptrix, I mean, they're different than the guitar fish, but they're similar, they're different, but they have a similar sort of shape. Like morphotype, I guess. Morphotype, yeah. They call them Banjo guitar fish, the common name for them. And so I was kind of curious, and I know they catch a lot of those, at least in the Gulf of California and on the Pacific. Oh yeah, yeah. I've seen them in the fish market too. I know they used to use them in fish tacos in La Paz, but I don't know. Oh really? Oh yeah. I hate to say, but they were pretty good eating, but if you like. I try guitar fish and the meat is okay.

1:35:51 Yeah, it's pretty, I don't, I'm not embarrassed to say I'm older than you. I'm past whatever, it's like they're pretty good eating. Sorry, but yeah, I'll say it, you don't have to, but yeah. So are there any, so you got all this, you've been working, you're getting to develop this database, all the guitar, and it's all pseudo-beta, so there's no other, and other than the Zap tricks, there's no other guitar fish. So the ones I got from Mexico, they're all pseudo-vatas. I'm interested, like, so in the US, remember I was telling you that they can be also found, like here, like in eBay or Etsy, like in different markets?

1:36:37 So here is different, I think there are also rhino-vatas. I think like some are coming from the Philippines. Okay. So that's also very, like something I would like to do. Yeah, do you think, why do you think the Philippines versus say West Africa? Because the Philippines and Indonesia, I think way back before all the CITES stuff, and they used to be a big explorer country to the US for the courier trade. Like a lot, like if you go to a souvenir store, like a beach town, like you can see shark jaws, sometimes I used to sell them like souvenirs.

1:37:23 You can see many species from like the Indo-Pacific and all like this area. Okay, okay. That's actually pretty interesting that, I would have thought West Africa would have been a possible place where you might get stuff in. I didn't even think about the Philippines or Indonesia going into Indonesia. They used to be like back then, they used to be a big importer for the shark curio trade. Yeah, Philippines is definitely for the shark curio trade. Yeah, definitely. I definitely agree with that.

1:38:03 I've seen that here in California, so I know I can speak to that firsthand. Yeah. The PES Diablo, I grew up in a fairly Hispanic community here in central California, and so I have actually seen some here in this area. Yeah, I was wondering, did you ever see them in California? Because I think there's only a little report that some people mention in California sometimes they'll sell them as souvenirs. Yeah, well I say I grew up in the Salinas Valley, which has a lot of migrant laborers and stuff here, it's a farming community. I'd seen them, but I wouldn't say I've seen them in recent years. I'd seen them more when I was growing up, going to school, like high school and stuff.

1:38:46 I'd see them, and I thought those were kind of weird or curious what they were. And I remember them talking about being, and they, yeah, so I kind of knew what they were. But I can't say I've seen them in recent years, but when I was growing up, I'd be over at a friend's house or something, I'd see them. And so I kind of a little bit more of the sort of the Halloween type or day of the dead type of practical joke, which was useful for. So, but yeah, so that was obviously back seventies, early eighties timeframe, not way before your time. But yeah, I was aware of them, but I just didn't, I didn't know much about them other than I just, I knew people that had, they were either from Mexico or they had Mexican heritage.

1:39:36 Some of them were second or third generation Mexican American, but I'd seen those before. So that was kind of an interesting, but I learned more today from you than I actually knew about them. I never thought to look into them. It's almost in a way. It sounded like he's almost like a type of a similar to like a shark fin trade where they got these things being traded around, but nobody really pays any attention to them. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so you got, so you got all this stuff done. Now you're, you're, you're busy publishing your thesis and congratulations. By the way, we got nine papers. Thank you. That's good. Nine papers out of a master's thesis? No. So I got nine papers throughout my master's because I got the opportunity to work in other like side projects.

1:40:19 That's amazing. But yeah, he was like so far nine papers and we have two more, a train in review and then so. So how many of those, how many of those are the first author on? I think three or four. Okay. Good for you. That's good. That's pretty good. That's not bad. Yeah. I mean, you got a couple more coming. That's, that's amazing. Congratulations. That's hard work. That's really good. Thank you so much. Having all the stuff. So, so, so with all your stuff now with this, with all this information you gathered, what do you, what are you looking to do with this? Now you're going to write some, you're going to make any, um, your stuff can be able to be able to use for any conservation purposes for either the Mexican government or Yeah. So I mean, so first like having all these genetic database, like once it gets published, my thesis is going to be available like in, uh, like in public databases.

1:41:20 So people can will be able to use this data to try to track like guitar fish products now that they are related internationally because I think one problem is like this guitar fishes are also so in Mexico, they are sold like in beach towns. I can buy high, like get right all these areas and a bunch of tourists. Sometimes they buy them like a souvenir and they can now that they probably they can bring them overseas and that would be now an international violation right through the city. Yeah. I, I, I don't think the customs guys would have any idea what they were bringing them back. They'd have no idea.

1:42:06 And I'm sure most people would have no idea that they're illegal to transport either. So that'd be, that would be an interesting thing. How that, how they worked all that stuff out as far as what they would, where they would go and what they would do with it and stuff. So now you got your, so now you got your masters wrapped up and everything. I know you now, I know you told us here before we got on the came on the air. She were, you've been running marathons and you're going to marathon recently. Yeah. How'd you go ahead? Yeah, I just, uh, I just ran the Chicago marathon. Oh, wow. That's awesome. It was fantastic. I was so I wanted to break three hours.

1:42:47 Mm hmm. I ended up running at three hours, 27 seconds. Ah, 27, 27 seconds. I've been hunted, but it was so close. Yeah, to win by you lost by 27 seconds. So I wanted to run a soft three hour marathon. So that requires you like a base of like, I think it's like a six, six minutes, 50 seconds per mile. Yeah. For 26 miles. So a marathon is 26.2 miles. So I was very close to break the three hours. So only by 20, 27 seconds.

1:43:31 But yeah, I've been running a lot. I think running has been, um, you know, like as a, as a master's student and like sometimes like to give you also like ideas to like refreshing because sometimes, you know, research. Yeah. Sometimes can be really hard. Like genetics can be really challenging sometimes. And yeah, like having these like hobby as a running is also being, um, great for, for like. Did you take up, did you take up the running later, kind of later, or was it something you'd done earlier? Yeah. I started running like two years or two years or three years ago. Okay. So pretty new. Yeah. I start first like little by little until like, no, no, this is my second marathon.

1:44:17 Okay. Yeah. So, so did you ever run before that or you just sent me, you just took up as a grad student? During high school, I used to run a little bit, but it was like short distances like five Ks or 10 Ks. Okay. You probably say, you probably saved your knees a lot of damage earlier in your life. Because like guys like Andrew and I probably used to run, used to run a lot earlier in our life. Then we like blew out our knees. And so like we don't do any more. Do you, do you actually used to run or? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I used to run like 10 miles a day for, uh, I was, I wrestled in college and we'd have five 30 every morning. We're out doing our 10 mile run. Oh nice. Yeah.

1:44:59 I did not do 10 miles a day. I would run when I was, when I was in high school, I played offensive line for, for football. So we were not known as runners, but I did run, but it was maybe like, I was doing it in kilometers. Maybe like four or five kilometers a day. Okay. You know, like a slow pace, but I, I ran, still ran. Just not 10 miles a day. That's insane. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's insane. Yeah. Yeah. I kept, I enjoyed running for years and years. Then my, my knees, by the time I got into my thirties, my knees were just kind of starting to give out on me. So I had to change over to swimming, swimming. So, uh.

1:45:41 Do you ever did a marathon? Did you finish a marathon? No, I never, I never ran a marathon. I just, I just used to like to run, but with, with wrestling, cause it's such a high impact endurance sport. You got to run to build up, you run to build up your endurance is what you do. So you, you, you start off your day running to get your day going. And then you got all the other weightlifting and all the other training. Yeah. So, uh, uh, but yeah, I enjoy it. Like I said, especially in grad school, like you said, like it's just a good way to kind of like clear your mind. Yeah. Just not think of anything and just kind of like, just be out there and running. Especially if you got a nice, if you have a nice trail to run on. Oh yeah. Like here, uh, I mean, Hattiesboro, Mississippi and we have, it's called the long lift race and it's a, it's a trail that is 44 miles. So you can run as much as you want. Yeah.

1:46:33 Yeah. It's great. How do you find the trail running compared to running like a marathon, which is probably just on like a paved road, right? That must be quite different. Yeah. I mean, it's harder for like for your knees too. Um, like for example, in Chicago, with Chicago marathon, I mean, it was crazy. There's like, I think over 53,000 runners. Yeah. It's a big one. Like from the Chicago marathon. And I mean, it's like, there's so many people that you just like, like, just go with them. Yeah. It's like, yeah. How long did you have to wait before you could actually get to the starting line to run?

1:47:14 So I was in, I was actually one of the, in, in the second coral, I was coral sea. So it was like kind of like really not really in front, but like also not too far behind. Okay. Okay. Okay. I've heard people tell me like they run like this. We have a big serve marathon out here, which is really popular. It runs along the coast, big syrup, uh, Monterey. And, um, people have told me like, sometimes they got to wait like a half hour, 45 minutes just to get to the starting. Yeah. Until they, yeah. And I think it's the same for Chicago. I was just like lucky that I was able to qualify for a faster coral because of my previous marathon time.

1:47:55 Okay. So they, they put you like, like, so usually faster runners go in front and then like slower runners kind of like going to backpack. Okay. Are you planning on doing, I know Chicago is a big one, but are you planning on doing others like New York and Boston? Yeah. So I mean, it's eventually like as I am, my, for my running career, like the dream will be to qualify for Boston and to call it to qualify like in my age group. I need to run a two 50. Two whole two 50 marathon. Yeah. It's just, it's so is that any marathon that you run, uh, or there's specific ones. Uh, so, so far I just done, um, the Gulf coast marathon and I just did Chicago.

1:48:41 I'm probably, I'm looking into the one there's one in, uh, it's called the Luciana marathon. That's in January. Okay. So I wanted, I still want to break the three hours. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're close. Yeah. Yeah. Just like more. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so now that you got your, your, your finishing up your masters and you're looking forward to starting your PhD next year. So like, um, where do you kind of see your career going from here? Well, I think I still, I feel like I want to be with the last more last more ranks in like for the long run. Yeah. Good. Yeah. So I think I'll be happy wherever I can go as long as I can work with, keep working with the last month. Yeah. Nice. I think I think I mentioned it before, but for my PhD, I'm still hoping to work with guitar fishes.

1:49:40 Oh, very nice. Great, great group. Great group to work on. Do you see yourself? Do you think you'll stay here in the US or you may go back to Mexico or? It will depends on the opportunities and like, like, you know, like I think it's really difficult to say like thing like far far, like think far in advance, but yeah, I think, I mean, if I get the opportunity to be here, I would love to still like be here. Of course. Yeah. I mean, whatever, whatever, whatever the future. Yeah. Well, we have you on tape now, so we'll be able to check back in with you. You want to you can ask if I was able to break the three hours. Yes. Well, we'll have you back. You break the three hours.

1:50:24 You sent us a text message. We'll have you back on the talk about what have you for a special bonus episode just to talk about your breaking the three hours. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Great. So I know Brian's been a been a really terrific guest having you on here today and congratulations on finishing your masters and we'll look definitely look forward to having you on again. Whether you break the three hours or not. We'll definitely have you back on in the future and thanks a lot very much for coming on today and joining the show. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, babe. Thank you. Thank you, Brian, for joining us on today's episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. It was great to have you on. Dave. Dave to do a masters like that where you're learning about a species where not a lot of people know about, you know, we don't, we don't know a lot about that species, let alone not a lot of people talk about it. It must be a kind of a really interesting way to break into a field talking to talking about and doing research about a shark that we just don't know that much about. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's working on something. There's almost nothing known about it. And their comments. It's like they're rare, but they're just, but just there's nobody's really studied him before and they have a cultural importance in his in his in his native country of Mexico. And so he got onto something that most people are not even thinking about with with looking at those with looking at those the dried the dried guitar fish down there. And and then, you know, he we always talk about this with with people when I talk to

1:51:56 young people, it's like find something somebody else isn't doing. And he did. He found something that somebody was not doing. I mean, you know, the best example always usually everybody can go do white sharks or lots of people do white sharks, but the skills he learned he go do white sharks now or whatever. But he's he's found something that he he basically he's made himself the expert himself position. He's an expert in that. And that's that's what's going to set that's going to set your career apart early on in your careers and do something. Nobody else is doing and he's a perfect poster child for that type of type of research. And now it was it was it was it was really fascinating having a model definitely. He's one of those young guys be nice to track his career as he goes along to the next phase, like with his PhD as he as he advances there and sees and see what he does. And I think he's going to be he's going to be staying there working with Nicole Phillips, who's who's on the podcast during the during the episodes we had then back during the symposium. Yeah, we'll definitely have to have her back on here as well. So we'll definitely look forward to that. But no, it was really good hearing Brian's story. And he's he's starting his PhD next year. And so it'll be great to kind of track his career as he goes along. Absolutely. And we'll we'll link to any social media that he has. Dave, if people want to get ahold of you, how would they do so? Lost Shark Guy on Instagram? That's probably the best way or check out my YouTube channel.

1:53:22 At Lost Shark Guy and check out the series, searching for lost sharks extinct or live. It really helps if you get views and get views on there and people want to click on there and subscribe. Please subscribe. Please do so really, really appreciate it. Awesome. And if you want to get ahold of us beyond Jaws Pod on Instagram and on YouTube, where you're probably watching this or listening to this on your favorite podcast app, which want to go to YouTube to your wonderful looking faces. You can do so. Just go to beyond Jaws Pod. I want to thank all of you for joining us today. I want to thank Brian. I want to thank, of course, Dave, my co host for each and every time coming in and bringing in the heat. It's always fun to do podcasts with you. And we're going to continue to do them forever and ever.

1:54:03 It's going to be a lot of fun. But thank you so much for joining us on today's episode of the beyond Jaws podcast from David and I. We really appreciate you. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.