Dune: Can We Master Our Genes Like the Bene Gesserit? | S01E03

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So basically, the Sisterhood is asking
Jessica to only produce a female er.

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But what do we know about sex? It's inherently on the sperm to impart

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that information, right, So,
how is Jessica supposed to control whether or

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not she's going to have a female
or male offspring? How are you supposed

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to control what sperm are approaching your
ocite and then get accepted. So I

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went down this rabbit hole reading about
it, and I read an article in

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the Scientific American, but it brought
up this really interesting phenomenon of cryptid female

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choice. Oh thanks, preparing for
hypodrihydes activate pactivate sixty percent, hyper speed

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Laza like speet a like speed.
It's too slow? All right, reality

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too the signs All right, everybody, welcome back to another incredible episode of

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reality Check. Today we have with
us doctor Sophia, and Doctor Sophia is

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a geneticist, and this is so
perfect because today we are talking about done

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and specifically we're talking about the Benny
Jessert Order and some of the incredible things

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that they can do. The Beny
Jest Order are one of the most powerful

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beings in the Dune universe, and
some of the things that they are doing

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really are tied in with genetics.
Sophia, tell us a little bit more

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about your background in genetics and just
give us a little rundown of who you

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are and what you do. Sure
happy to I am Sophia Proguste. I

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went to the University of Colorado Boulder
for undergrad and then I went on to

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the University of Utah and got my
PhD. Out of the lab of Carl

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Thummel. I worked in the inheritance
of metabolic disorders and we specifically were investigating

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drosophila, which share a lot of
the same genetic building blocks and metabolic building

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blocks as human beings do. And
it's a much simpler system in which you

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can study obesity diabetes. And so
that's where I got my start. And

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now I'm actually a post doctoral researcher
at Regeneron and I've transitioned. I'm still

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studying human genetics and how variants impact
iron homeostasis and metabolism, but I've expanded

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into mice and human genetic and genomic
analyzes. Wow, that sounds like very

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very heavy heavy content there. That's
so exciting. So tell me a little

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bit if you were just your initial
thoughts with Dune and the Benny Jessert.

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Okay, I'm glad you're giving me
some free rein here. I've only watched

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the movie. I really appreciated the
film. I thought it was beautifully done.

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One element that I really liked about
it was the sound of all of

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their helicoptery type flying apparitie. And
that's actually because they used real recordings from

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insects. They used insect wing sounds
on all spay. I did not know

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that We're just a few minutes in
and I'm already my mind is being blown

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already, I know. So that's
one of the first things that I noticed

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about it. I really appreciated the
cinematography, the sound, I like the

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storyline a lot. But one thing
that never really made sense to me was

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actually Sisterhood and the Order. I
didn't really understand their role or why they

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were so angry about Paul and why
they were like, Jessica, you worked

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all how to have a sudden And
I was like, what is this?

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And it was a short little drop
into the film, and you're like,

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Okay, weird, Witch Order is
mad? Moving on fine. But then

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when I started reading into it more, I was like, this is so

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cool. They really could have expanded
on this and made it better in the

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film. Disappointed now, but yeah. The Ben and Jezerit sisterhood came to

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be after the fall of the Machines
ten thousand years prior to the setting of

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the film done, and they started
emphasizing human potential through selective breeding and then

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environmental conditioning and training, and basically, once technology had failed the society,

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they decided that they were going to
hone human ability and breed people to have

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what would appear to be superhuman skills. And this explains why Jessica Paul's mom

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is able to do all these wild
and crazy things. And they're supposed to

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be able to control themselves physiologically and
molecularly to a level where they would be

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able to perform superhuman feats like be
able to tell if somebody's lying to you,

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be able to move very rapidly,
and have what would appear to be

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like magical characteristics. But there which
is so interesting. It's just that's just

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so much to unpack already. And
Chio Cacau, who is a theoretical physicist,

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I think you might be getting that
book at the mail soon. He

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wrote a book called the Future of
Humanity, and one of the most interesting

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things he says in his book is
he highlights the fact that if you go

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back far enough in human history and
if you were to introduce any of the

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technologies that we have now, that
they would seem like magic to ancient people.

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And he says, it's the technologies
that will be available far in our

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future will seem like magic to modern
day people now. But it's just science,

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and I'm really excited to unpack how
much of some of these deny Jeserate

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powers are theoretically possible through genetic manipulation
and what is stuff that we just have

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no idea right now. But I
also laugh at just because it's like one

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thing when you're talking about genetics is
you have to look at it on such

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a large scale that it's on And
I laugh when you think about where Dune

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takes place as ten thousand years in
the future after the Fall machine, the

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fall of the machines. So if
we're looking at society right now, it's

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you are here. We're more like
I robot. Give it another ten years

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and we'll be at terminator. Give
it another ten thousand years and we'll be

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at Doune. So if you look
at sort of chronologically science fiction, Dune

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takes place, I think the farthest
in the future of all of the sci

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fi concepts that are rooted in sort
of our own human reality. So when

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we think about genetics, it's like, we can't be thinking about it on

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the scale of, oh, these
technologies are being developed ten year or fifty

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year span. We're talking about thousands
of years. And that's the really fun

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thing about science fiction, and that's
part of the reason why some of these

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great science fiction. Science fiction writers
like Frank Herbert predict where things are going

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to go or what could be feasible
in the future. Jurassic Park was incredibly

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accurate considering where science was at the
time of its writing. And I know

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this episode is not about that,
but it's incredible to read it now as

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a modern day geneticist and talk about
cloning of dinosaurs and be like, wow,

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he was really pretty spot on.
Some things are wrong, but the

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fact that he made all of this
up and as a writer was able to

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extrapolate that far intil the scientific field
is so crazy to me. And Michael

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Creyton was just a genius in my
opinion he and he was also he went

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to med school, so he wasn't
completely inact with science. He was well

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versed in the sciences. But I'm
going to take a moment of shameless self

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promotion. We are doing an episode
on Jurassic Park and we are interviewing another

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geneticist, and that is actually going
to be episode one of Reality Check.

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So if you haven't listened to that
one, you can go back and check

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that out if you're interested in hearing
more about what Sophia just mentioned in the

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Plausibility of Dinosaurs. So ended,
I am not that episode. Oh but

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dude, so it's probably good.
I'm really excited. No, I am

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excited, Thank you so much.
So, yeah, like, you can't

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mention science fiction and feasibility at the
future without mentioning Michael Crichton, because that

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is such a good example that might
have seemed really wild and crazy at the

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time and now it's just like,
yeah, we cloned sheep. That's eighties

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work. Moving on and now one
thing, correct me if I'm wrong,

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But I read this who knows on
BuzzFeed or something. But scientists were inspired

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by his work, and scientists are
often inspired by the work of science fiction.

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I hear this all the time.
I follow a lot of things that

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NASA puts out, and you hear
a lot of these engineers who are designing

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system AI systems and they're like,
yeah, I really liked the concept of

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how in Space Odyssey, and I
just wondered if we could build a machine

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like that. So when I was
a little kid, I was inspired by

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that. And now I'm a brilliant
scientist who has created this technology, I

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can't really speak to that, I
see. I completely see your point.

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I think the important thing about being
a scientist is always recognizing where you can

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push the boundaries. And for example, I had these meetings with the scientific

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developer who's trying to develop these new
metabolic tools for me, and they basically

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asked me to describe what would be
most useful, and I just went way

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off the wall and described, this
is what I would want in a perfect

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world. Because that is not attainable, and I understand that, but that's

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what I want. So if that's
what you're shooting for, that's where we

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need to go because that's what I
want. So I can totally see how

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science fiction would provide that layer of
imagination. And next level thinking, but

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that is definitely a rooted part of
being a scientific thinkers. It's not about

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where we are now, it's about
where we want to be next, which

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is interesting to think about because Dune
does take place very far in the future,

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after the fall of machines, after
we've tried AI and that to pan

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out. Instead of building these machines
that will do the work for us,

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let's enhance ourselves. So let's jump
in a little bit to some of the

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genetics. And I'm really curious about
if the Benny jess are it. Their

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whole thing is genetic manipulation through the
timeline, through this specific breeding program,

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and at the end they're trying to
produce this superhuman who has these powers and

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capacities, who's going to be their
leader and savior. In a lot of

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ways, where are we at right
now with that? Because I know that

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we have dogs that are not wolves, so some level we have done that.

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We do have natural preferences with breeding, But where does that line sort

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of get drawn with breeding specifically for
genetic outcomes. That's an interesting question,

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and that does touch on the topic
of eugenics and generating a master race.

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This has not this is not a
novel concept. This is something and I

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think this is part of the reason
why Dune and the benejezer Its sisterhood would

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be a bit triggering for listeners because
we've all heard this concept of creating like

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a perfect superhuman and it's not a
novel concept to breed animals to make them

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the best performing race horses or working
dogs or something like that that they can

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be. Now, as far as
eugenics go, it's it's important to realize

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that eugenics is based in very not
a very professional science realm. It's a

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lot of racially antiquicated facts that came
into play. And one important point that

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I do want to touch on is
actually the T four euthanasia program Germany.

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So the Nazis are a famous example
of individuals that tried to achieve a master

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race and thought that this was a
feasibility, And the T four euthanasia program

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was actually started in nineteen thirty nine
by Hitler. This is pre the Jewish

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genocide. The Nazis actually targeted individuals
with disabilities, either physical or mental disabilities,

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and they targeted these individuals and considered
them useless to society and actually implemented

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a euth in Asia program and ended
up killing over two hundred and fifty thousand

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individuals in this program. Now that's
incredibly dark, and it's important to note

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because this euthanasia program actually gave rise
to the gas chambers and everything that they

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used in World War two in the
Holocaust, So this was the stepping start

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of the Holocaust. Now, really
quick, what is the technical definition of

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eugenics? Because I understand what it
is conceptually, but I don't know what

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its exact definition is. And what's
the difference between eugenics and something that's not

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eugenics but is similar. That's a
really good point, and I literally just

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googled it because I was like,
I'm not sure. Okay, it's a

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hard question. So eugenics is very
human focus, so we're talking about breeding

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the human population. So eugenics could
never be used in the term of animals.

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I don't believe so. And it
was developed eons that grow. It's

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an increasingly discredited and unscientific theory that
we can breed desirable, heritable traits in

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human populations. And I think that's
the most important point, and that's any

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geneticist like worse nightmares when you start
having to have the eugenics conversation, and

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it's like the ability to breed desirable
traits. I think it's a really hot

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topic right now to talk about designer
babies and the option to use IVF to

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select embryos with specific traits. I'm
not saying that it's not scientific, feasible,

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feasibly possible for you to do so
and select an embryo that might have

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certain traits that you would want.
I want my child to be athletic.

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I want them to be taller than
average, I want them to have a

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certain hair color, eye color.
I do think that this is something that

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could become feasible within our future,
but it starts getting into the moral aspect

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of what is truly right and wrong
and morally apprehensible within the world. And

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then also, and you do see
people doing that already, like without the

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IVF being involved. Is I even
remember in high school, I remember talking

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to a really short girl and she
was like, I will only date tall

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guys because I need to give my
children a chance at being tall. But

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people do, all right, naturally
select for I hate to use the term

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breeding because it's so sterile, but
it People do choose mates based on traits

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that they find more desirable for their
future offspring, not purely on how good

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of a partner is this person going
to be. They do choose people based

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on is this person going to produce
desirable offspring with me? Oh yeah?

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And attractiveness is something that's very personal
but also inherently biological on some levels.

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Where there was a really interesting study. I'll see if I can find it

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after we finished this episode, but
there was a study about the punish ability

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of somebody's face basically, and it
was like it was a real study,

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and that wasn't the main takeaway,
but the takeaway was like, there are

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people who have less strong bone structure
in their faces, so let's say,

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weaker jaws, less prominent cheek bones, and they just look like a less

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intense human being. You are biologically
predisposed to trust that person less and to

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automatically dislike them because they look like
a weaker human being. And you're like,

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if you're a person were to get
punched in the face, I wouldn't

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expect them to. This is all
subconscious, right, If this person were

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to get punched in the face,
they're not going to be as intense as

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an adversary, and so they're not
somebody that I might necessarily gravitate towards.

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Wow clan, No, it's crazy
when you start getting into a little that

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was a lot in an impact.
So yeah, and that could be a

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whole episode in and of itself.
We could go into the towilet Zone episode

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where everybody looks the same and they
all turn sixteen and take a potion to

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look like one of four designer people, lip injections and whatnot. But you

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were talking about this in the sense
of eugenics, and we in its.

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We tend to pick people who have
traits that we might we may find desirable.

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But it becomes a problem when we're
trying to eliminate entire groups of people

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that have traits that we and I
say we loosely as a population or a

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person or a scientist. In this
case Hitler, he found certain traits undesirable

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and he tried to eliminate them rather
than just choosing someone based on his personal

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preferences. So I would argue eugenics
has always a bad idea because there's a

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phrase in genetics I think I believe
this is from the comedian Eddie Izzard.

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But it's always better to spread the
genes apart. You want more diversity in

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your pool, you want more diverse
backgrounds, you want a lot of different

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types of variants, at least,
I would think in a healthy population,

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so that you're better able to respond
to all kinds of diverse situations and environments,

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because you can't predict what's going to
happen. For example, in a

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clonal population aspen, where you have
one organism that's just sending up multiple trees

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but it's all interconnected, or there
are certain lizards that reproduce asexually. Let's

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say the genetics are all consistent between
these aspen trees and then these lizards.

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If there's a disease that comes through
or some sort of challenge that these lizards

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or trees are not adapted for,
then you lose the entire population. But

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if you have genetic variation within the
population that protects against this, you'll have

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survivor populations, and these can give
rise to new populations with new genetic diversity.

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So it's always good to have a
lot of intermixing and genetic influence in

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my opinion, in populations. And
so that's the weakness of eugenics I feel,

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is that you're selecting for traits that
you believe to be beneficial. But

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let's say in the Beniceesert model,
they're selecting for individuals who are going to

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be able to control themselves on a
molecular basis and on a physiological level.

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But there's got to be characteristics that
they're overlooking within this population. You can't

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control for every single genetic inevitability,
and there's going to be environmental chinks in

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that armor that could potentially be the
downfall of your selective breeding campaign over centuries.

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And yeah, so it's like they
would choose, we want a trait

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where someone has exercises greater control over
this, but maybe those genes are also

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associated with they have a higher risk
of this exactly cancer, because I think

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I yeah, I think I even
saw this in a dog dog breeding program.

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It was a documentary I saw a
long time ago. It wasn't dogs,

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it was actually foxes. They were
breeding foxes to train create a more

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docile, domesticated box. So they
were selectively breeding for the more passive foxes,

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and after several generations they started to
see foxes that were more hop like,

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so they had floppier ears, bigger
eyes, and they generally were displaying

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more juvenile tendencies, where they also
had a other group that they were doing

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the opposite. They were selecting foxes
that had more assertive traits. So they

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were picking them based off of the
behavioral traits, but they also got physical

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characteristics that came along with it.
The calm fox looked juvenile like babies,

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and the more aggressive foxes had sharper
features. Point to your ears, and

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so I think that's to your point, is that there are certain genetics that

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come with associations that may or may
not be desirable. Yes, one hundred

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percent. And I will definitely say
if I'm buying a if I'm buying a

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puppy, I don't necessarily want a
pure bread dog. I would much rather

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have a mut because the likelihood of
your mut having hip dysplasia or all kinds

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of other inherent diseases is going to
be a lot lower. It's not going

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to be impossible. There's going to
be some traits. Dogs in general will

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have higher rates of cancer than other
species. It's just it's a good safety

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to get a lot more genetic influence
and variation in there. And I think

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a lot of people think of genetic
variation as being a negative thing, but

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there are genetic variants that are protective
against certain things or add some layer of

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complexity of the situation that might end
up improving fitness later. Would it look

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like per se because worst example is
inbreeding, which is the worst example of

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genetic variation. But if you're trying
to create a more diversely genetic baby that

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may stand better chances of genetic resiliency, you would want to find someone who

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a partner who has a very different
genetic makeup vin you. I don't know,

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in my mind was just a road
I would never go down, like

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how to create the perfect genetic baby, or like how to make the most

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diverse baby, And that wouldn't even
come into consideration for me my child planning.

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But it sounds like eugenics can go
both ways, for trying to create

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one specific type of baby that's too
genetically not varied, and then also trying

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to create a genetically diverse baby.
It's the genetic manipulation can be bad both

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ways. I agree with that one
hundred percent, and I think that obviously

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that's why eugenics is such a controversial
topic and it's such a negative morally apprehensible

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activity. We can't be playing god. We don't know what is best.

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That Bennett jeserit Sisterhood doesn't know what
is best. They went through a selective

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breeding campaign to breed all of most
prominent families in this science fiction world to

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create that messiah that you were mentioning. But I'm just trying to put holes

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in that argument and be like,
no, just because you think you've accounted

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for every single inevitability genetically, the
environment is always going to change. The

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one thing that you can count on
is change, and you're not going to

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be able to respond on a genetic
timetable rapidly enough to in my mind,

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make a like a superhuman like that. But getting back to the movie,

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one of the biological plots that I
thought was most interesting was the fact that

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the Sisterhood asked Jessica Paul's mother,
the main character's mother, not to produce

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a son. They specifically asked her
to produce a female. And their whole

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line with their Sisterhood is that the
women in this Sisterhood or this order are

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able to unlock more genetical advantages than
the men, and they're able to take

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a true sayer drug or poison and
through through this poisoning experience, during which

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the priestess will control her molecular architecture
to the point where she can survive the

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poisoning. Through this traumatic experience,
she can unlock the maternal side. But

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they need a man. I don't
really understand this plothole, but they need

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a male heir to unlock both the
maternal and the paternal side and get these

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maternal and paternal memories that have been
implanted through several generations. So basically,

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the female processes are able to unlock
maternal memories through several generations, whereas a

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male messiah would be able to unlock
maternal and paternal memories, and then also

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the future memories, which is crazy
or just yeah and nuts where Paul falls

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into play and it's sid that's yeah. He wasn't supposed to exist. He

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was supposed to be a girl,
and he was supposed to inevitably fall in

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love and marry another character, which
we're not going to get into because that

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is going to be covered in Dune
number two, which is coming out really

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soon. And I don't know if
they're going to stay true to the books

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or if they're going to change it
up a little bit, but that ends

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up. I guess this is a
little bit. I don't know it's in

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the books, but it's like that
person who was supposed to be Paul's male

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partner in counterpart romantically as he had
been born a girl becomes his greatest adversary

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as a male because the prophecy.
And it's just so dramatic. But let's

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talk a little bit about again.
I wanted to talk about I wanted to

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talk about cryptid female choice and all
of this because okay, I was on

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a there was a plan here.
So basically, the Sisterhood is asking Jessica

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to only produce a female air But
what do we know about sex and the

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biological process of generating either male or
female or intersex offspring. It's inherently on

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the sperm to impart that information,
right, it's coming from dad. So

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how is Jessica supposed to control whether
or not she's going to have a female

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or male offspring. We're not alligators. Alligators can control whether or not they're

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having female or male offspring based on
temperature, but we're not like that.

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How are you supposed to control what
sperm are approaching your ocite and then get

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accepted. That just seems insane to
me. So I went down this rabbit

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hole reading about it, and I
read an article in the Scientific American and

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I can send you a link to
it so you can share it in the

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show notes. But it brought up
this really interesting phenomenon of cryptid female choice.

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And I really liked the overarching theme
in this because it is a really

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interesting kind of social perspective where this
sisterhood in Dune is, even though they're

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very powerful witches, they're in the
background in this very patriarchal society, and

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they're running the show from the shadows. They're not in the forefront. They're

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not putting this whole idea tenerary out
there for everyone to see. They're casually

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bringing in their people, infiltrating these
bloodlines, merging into these houses, and

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then manipulating the genetics and creating selective
breeding patterns through centuries to get to the

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end point of the final cross,
which should be a female poll to a

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male, which is you just mentioned
due in Part two, his greatest adversary,

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and then that offspring from that cross
is supposed to be the Quisette,

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the Messiah. What I think is
super interesting here is there any evidence of

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cryptoid cryptid female choice in human beings. There is a really interesting phenomenon in

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comb jellyfish where the female egg nucleus
does screen seviral sperm it appears and may

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select a sperm that it prefers.
So that's an interesting phenomenon in jellyfish.

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But we are not jellyfish. We
are not jellyfish. But I'm just saying

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it's an interesting phenomenon where there is
some sort of oocite screening event happening,

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And just because it's happening in simpler
organisms doesn't mean it couldn't possibly be happening

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in humans. There has been one
paper that's shown that human may allow sperm

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from certain individuals preferentially over other individuals. So there may be some sort of

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chemical component here that would allow this
Benjeserit priestess to control on a molecular level,

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maybe through chemical outputs which sperm the
oocite is accepting. And I really

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liked that idea of cryptid female choice
and these women taking back their power in

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this patriarchal, male dominated social structure
and being able to generate this messiah that

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they are then going to use to
control the future and the human empire.

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So that was one biological aspect I
wanted to touch on a lot. Yeah,

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No, I have heard that women
for family planning. Now don't quote

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me on this, because I just
heard this from friends that are trying to

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have certain sects of babies. But
male sperm swim a little bit faster,

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so they get to the egg quicker, whereas female sperm are a little bit

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smarter and they'll hang back. So
depending on the time of the egg being

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dropped during ovulation, if the boy
sperm get there too soon, they would

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die off before they have the opportunity
to what do you call it, implanting

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the egg? Seeding the egg,
that's correct. But the female sperm they

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hang back. And wait, I'm
gonna be totally honest with you, I

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have no idea about female versus male
sperm spee. It looks based off of

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a quick google you are totally right. So wow, maybe this isn't as

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crazy as it feels like it should
be. Well, it's know in the

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comments what you guys think. Yeah, I think that's super interesting. I

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think the possibility of there being some
sort of component that you would be able

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to on a molecular cellular level,
if you were like advanced enough to detect

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that, you would be able to
control the sex of your child. Pretty

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And that goes back to my point
with Mitya at Cacaw's book, is that

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a lot of the technologies ten thousand
years in the future will seem like magic

357
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to us now, but it's just
a new scientific discovery for them that it's

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commonplace, and that as really interesting. I'm glad you brought that up.

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That was totally new information for me. I just thought it was so cool.

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I liked this female empowerment moment where
it's cryptid female choice. What is

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this? I thought that was so
interesting. That is really insane. The

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other interesting thing is how the Benny
Jester are a able to access genetic memory

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of mothers and grandmothers, and in
the movie Dune, it's only these genetic

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memories can only be accessed through the
female bloodline, so the male memories are

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lost. But in humans, is
there such a thing as genetic memory?

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Because I do hear in more of
the spiritual world where we can have trapped

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emotions of our ancestors and we can
feel feelings from our ancestors that are we

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can have emotional reactions to things we've
never experienced. Can you talk to me

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a little bit about genetic memory.
I can try. So I'm going to

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start this from the genetics perspective,
because I am not a neuroscientist, and

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I'm not an expert on memory formation, retention, or degradation or anything like

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that that's very focused on neuroscience,
so it would be like a separate expert.

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But what I will tell you is
that there are definitely studies that I

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have indicated that there are changes within
a human being outside of just changes to

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your DNA sequence that can impact your
metabolic state. They can impact your mental

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state, for example, anxiety,
and these are called epigenetic regulations. One

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famous example of this is DNA methylation, and it's not just limited to DNA

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methylation. There's other kinds of factors
that can epigenetically regulate your genetics. But

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these are changes that can be inherited
through multiple generations outside of just your basic

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DNA genetics. And there's some famous
examples of these stories and human beings related

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to metabolisms, such as the Dunk
Dutch hunger winter famine, during which I

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have even heard of that one.
Oh man, it gets dark pretty quick,

383
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and I'm sorry. There are a
lot of dark stories in genetics.

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But basically, during the Dutch hunger
winter, there were individuals who were kept

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within prison camps under Nazi rule,
and there were pregnant women within these camps,

386
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and unfortunately, the Nazis kept very
meticulous records of the exact rations individuals

387
00:33:22.759 --> 00:33:27.720
were receiving, so we have information
about calorically what these mothers were taking in,

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and we know that these individuals were
under coloric restriction, so they were

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in starvation rations. They were taking
in less than eight hundred calories a day,

390
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and then when you look at their
offspring, those offspring tend to be

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predisposed to developing type two diabetes and
obesity. And the general hypothesis is that

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epigenetic changes that took place within the
mother informed the embryo that there was this

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famine environment and that you needed to
be able to respond to that environment,

394
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so that when the embryo came out
and it's a little child and it's developing,

395
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it would expect to be in an
environment where it was going to need

396
00:34:09.880 --> 00:34:15.599
to be able to store as many
nutrients as quickly and reliably and as energy

397
00:34:15.639 --> 00:34:20.400
efficiently as it could, hence the
development of type two diabetes and obesity.

398
00:34:21.320 --> 00:34:27.039
Wow, So does this the genetics
only? Does it only happen when there's

399
00:34:27.199 --> 00:34:31.119
a fetus in neutro or can it
happen through generations? No, it can

400
00:34:31.239 --> 00:34:37.639
happen through generations. There's another really
interesting Swedish study where they looked at the

401
00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:46.119
risk of cardiovascular defects and metabolic and
metabolism intake and nutrient intake and grand for

402
00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:52.320
that grandfathers, and this kind of
gets into an interesting line of motive inheritance

403
00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:58.719
where they did see effects all the
way into the F two generations. So

404
00:34:58.760 --> 00:35:01.960
you have the parental generation that has
the exposure, you have the next generation,

405
00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:05.679
which is the F one, and
then you have the second generation,

406
00:35:05.719 --> 00:35:10.960
which is the F two, so
grandpa parents and then children, and they

407
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:16.960
did see deferential effects in I believe
it was in the grand paternal maternal fashion.

408
00:35:17.079 --> 00:35:22.599
So it's following a complex mode of
inheritance which actually going grand paternal to

409
00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:28.360
maternal and that's the mode of epigenetic
inheritance that's occurring in those studies. So

410
00:35:28.599 --> 00:35:30.480
I did want to bring that up, and I'm glad you asked about it,

411
00:35:30.519 --> 00:35:35.440
because it's not cut and dry like
they present in done. You're not

412
00:35:35.480 --> 00:35:39.039
necessarily just going to be able to
unlock your maternal memories because you're a woman.

413
00:35:39.440 --> 00:35:43.960
I would expect it to follow a
more complex mode of inheritance just based

414
00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:49.840
of biology. And I will say
that transgenerational inheritances flat in flies is something

415
00:35:49.880 --> 00:35:55.360
that I did study and we were
able to see metabolic impacts from the parental

416
00:35:55.400 --> 00:36:00.280
generation into the F two generation,
but again following that grand maternal fashion.

417
00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:05.199
So a complex motive here is interesting
because I don't think about a lot of

418
00:36:05.559 --> 00:36:09.199
variation between flies. To me,
they're all so similar that's no interesting that

419
00:36:09.239 --> 00:36:13.360
you can even really go, oh, yes, this fly is so much

420
00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:15.320
different than this fly. Oh yeah, there's a lot of different things you

421
00:36:15.320 --> 00:36:20.559
can do. Flies become obese.
It was always my goal to generate a

422
00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:24.880
walk a fly that was too fat
to fly. Never achieved that. I

423
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:29.159
wanted to be able to achieve a
fly that was so fat that it would

424
00:36:29.159 --> 00:36:32.239
not be able to lift off.
But the problem applies is that they are

425
00:36:32.920 --> 00:36:38.119
they are constrained by their exoskeleton,
right, they have that hard cuticle layer,

426
00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:45.079
unlike us where fleshy removable. We're
expandable in flies. As you put

427
00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:50.719
on adipose tissue, it just squishes
all the organs up into different cavities within

428
00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:55.320
the fly and you reach a maximum
growth outwards. But yeah, so there's

429
00:36:55.320 --> 00:37:02.239
definitely examples of is that that go
so multiple generations past the exposure, be

430
00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:08.719
that dietary or even genetic exposures.
Joe Nadeau who actually just recently attended a

431
00:37:08.719 --> 00:37:15.320
conference with in Greece. He's a
major player in this field, and I

432
00:37:15.519 --> 00:37:19.840
was really inspired by his work and
it was actually what we based our flywork

433
00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:23.159
off of. But they've been able
to show a similar pattern in mice where

434
00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:30.000
they had a genetic variation in the
first generation and then so they had a

435
00:37:30.039 --> 00:37:34.280
homozygous in a mouse in the first
generation that had two copies of this genetic

436
00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:37.000
variant, right, and then the
second generation they have one copy and you

437
00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:43.159
see you still see the phenotype.
But in the third generation they don't have

438
00:37:43.599 --> 00:37:50.599
any of the variants. They're genetically
identical to a normal mouse, and they

439
00:37:50.679 --> 00:37:57.719
still have metabolic predispositions towards the disease
state like their grandparents did. So even

440
00:37:57.800 --> 00:38:02.679
though they don't they haven't inherited the
graenetic change, there's still this predisposition towards

441
00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:08.079
your grand paternal state. Yeah,
that's so Really, I feel like that

442
00:38:08.239 --> 00:38:14.719
just exposes a lot of generational problems
because when you look at something, it's

443
00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:19.519
that's not just your generation's issue,
it's these consequences. It sounds like these

444
00:38:19.559 --> 00:38:24.280
consequences bleed into our children and our
children's children, and if America had issues

445
00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:30.320
with obesity fifty years ago, they're
going to be compounding issues each generation.

446
00:38:31.039 --> 00:38:37.480
I would agree with that, but
there's also this weird phenomenon that I observed

447
00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:43.679
where it seems like if you are
optimized to be on a high fat,

448
00:38:43.719 --> 00:38:47.880
high fructose diet, let's say that's
what your family has been eating for generations,

449
00:38:47.920 --> 00:38:51.480
like the German diet for example.
Okay, they're eating a lot of

450
00:38:51.480 --> 00:38:53.920
carbohydrates, they're eating a lot of
fat, there's a lot of beer,

451
00:38:54.000 --> 00:39:00.920
there's a lot of poor, heavy
Western diet. You are going to be

452
00:39:00.039 --> 00:39:06.440
metabolically predisposed to be on that diet, and you that might honestly be where

453
00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:12.320
you perform optimally. So I do
put a lot of stock. I do

454
00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:14.960
put a lot of stock on like, oh, you should look at your

455
00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:17.840
macronutrients. You should look at your
micronutrients. You should be being aware of

456
00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:22.480
where your food is coming from,
not eating heavily processed food or food with

457
00:39:22.519 --> 00:39:25.679
a lot of preservatives in it.
But you should also be taking into consideration

458
00:39:27.000 --> 00:39:30.880
what is my ancestry. I try
and eat a Mediterranean diet. My family's

459
00:39:30.920 --> 00:39:36.639
Mediterranean. I just there's some foods
I know I'm not going to do very

460
00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:42.480
well with. Just I believe,
and it's a hypothesis based on genetic exposure.

461
00:39:43.079 --> 00:39:45.599
Yeah, and that's so interesting.
I'm Sicilian and my family I grew

462
00:39:45.639 --> 00:39:50.599
up eating spaghetti multiple nights a week, and I don't. I'm blessed.

463
00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:53.519
I don't have an issue with carbs. But if I eat a low carb

464
00:39:53.599 --> 00:39:58.639
diet, I start getting shaky,
I start feeling dizzy, I start feeling

465
00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:01.159
sick, And so I know I
do not do well on loo carb diets.

466
00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:04.840
Because I am Italian. We need
to eat a lot of bread and

467
00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:08.519
a lot of spaghetti to just keep
our systems going. And that could definitely

468
00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:12.800
be environmental. And some of that
could be environmental. That's how you've been

469
00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:15.239
raised at so have you been conditioned? That's how your body has just gotten

470
00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:20.079
used to navigating the world, and
that's how your body has gotten used to

471
00:40:20.199 --> 00:40:24.199
navigating its own glycemic levels throughout the
day. But also there is definitely a

472
00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:30.280
genetic contribution here where you're coming from
this long Italian background and you are predisposed

473
00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:35.920
to be optimized to eat this food. So anyway, I went on a

474
00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:40.400
long tangent there about how epigenetics can
regulate metabolic state because that's what I am

475
00:40:40.440 --> 00:40:49.880
familiar with. But and there is
evidence that your epigenome can affect your aging

476
00:40:50.280 --> 00:40:57.760
memory. And so this is the
concept that epigenetics can contribute to h related

477
00:40:57.920 --> 00:41:02.880
memory decline. And so while epigenetic
factors can be inherited through multiple generations,

478
00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:08.119
your epigenetics are not in a fixed
state and they can actually fluctuate and change

479
00:41:08.159 --> 00:41:16.039
throughout your life. And there has
been evidence that epigenetic changes can affect memory

480
00:41:16.119 --> 00:41:22.800
retention. And real quick, that's
every variable, right, I can change

481
00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:28.280
my epigenetics through everything environmental, my
diet, my music that I listen to,

482
00:41:28.519 --> 00:41:31.719
anything that you expose yourself to can
change your epigenetics. Is that correct?

483
00:41:32.679 --> 00:41:36.360
Oh, that's a bold statement to
make. I don't know if that's

484
00:41:36.440 --> 00:41:38.920
been scientists, And this was always
kind of something that I feel like we

485
00:41:39.079 --> 00:41:45.159
butt heads with personally throughout our friendship
is scientists don't like to make We don't

486
00:41:45.199 --> 00:41:49.320
like to be like. You can
affect your epigenetics with anything. Can you

487
00:41:49.360 --> 00:41:52.760
affect epigenetics with your diet? Yes? Can you affect it with music,

488
00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:58.039
Probably because you're gonna affect your anxiety
levels, which could affect all kinds of

489
00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:02.000
other hormones that are secreted for your
brain and regulate all kinds of factors.

490
00:42:02.519 --> 00:42:07.760
It seems like a pretty safe statement
to say that many factors can influence your

491
00:42:07.800 --> 00:42:15.599
epigenetics, and that these changing environmental
factors can alter your epigenetic state. And

492
00:42:15.639 --> 00:42:21.239
that's part of the reason why twins
end up looking different later in life.

493
00:42:21.320 --> 00:42:27.599
It's different exposures that can lead to
different epigenetic regulations. And there's been really

494
00:42:27.639 --> 00:42:34.840
interesting studies that have shown that changes
in your epigenetics can affect your memory retention

495
00:42:35.119 --> 00:42:40.559
as you age, and also like
how well you actually recall things or how

496
00:42:40.599 --> 00:42:46.559
memories are formed. There's several different
steps in forming a memory. There's actually

497
00:42:46.960 --> 00:42:52.719
making the memory, recalling the memory, retaining the memory, and all of

498
00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:58.840
these can be affected by different epigenetic
factors. At the end of the day.

499
00:42:58.920 --> 00:43:01.639
Though. The what I feel like
is really important is the memory has

500
00:43:01.760 --> 00:43:07.719
to be formed. You have to
have experienced the memory in order to have

501
00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:15.719
these epigenetic or epigenomic regulatory events impacting
your recollection of the memory. So that

502
00:43:15.800 --> 00:43:17.760
was my issue with the movie Doo. And I was like, Okay,

503
00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:28.280
what is your idea then? What
is Frank Herbert's idea for the epigenetic regulation

504
00:43:28.679 --> 00:43:37.079
or potential transgenerational regulation of memory within
humans? But right before I hopped on

505
00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:39.239
this call, I was having a
conversation with Greg and he brought up a

506
00:43:39.280 --> 00:43:44.360
really interesting perspective that I hadn't could
tell our listeners. Who's Greg? Sorry,

507
00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:50.800
Greg's my fiance Fio my fiance.
Yes. So Greg and I were

508
00:43:51.000 --> 00:43:53.119
in the kitchen and we're making ourselves
a snack, and I brought up this

509
00:43:53.239 --> 00:43:57.400
exact debate, and I was like, I just don't see how if you

510
00:43:57.519 --> 00:44:00.880
didn't have I really like the idea
concept, actually, but I don't see

511
00:44:00.920 --> 00:44:04.800
how if you don't, if you
haven't experienced the memory, how you're supposed

512
00:44:04.840 --> 00:44:09.199
to remember that? And he brought
up a really excellent point which was about

513
00:44:09.239 --> 00:44:16.480
birds. You've heard that birds know
migratory patterns without ever experiencing them, or

514
00:44:16.519 --> 00:44:22.360
there are some other natural phenomenon in
the animal kingdom whereline animal doesn't need to

515
00:44:22.360 --> 00:44:29.280
be shown how to do something,
it just knows. And on some level,

516
00:44:29.360 --> 00:44:31.599
I do believe that's probably true.
And I do believe we as human

517
00:44:31.639 --> 00:44:37.320
beings, what we like to see
ourselves as this really advanced species, we're

518
00:44:37.360 --> 00:44:43.360
not. We're just little ape bi
pediless running around. We're and lightly more

519
00:44:43.400 --> 00:44:47.039
advanced than our other Earth counterpart,
creep chops. So yeah, exactly,

520
00:44:47.360 --> 00:44:52.360
I'm sure there's all kinds of memories
that are locked down in there that we

521
00:44:52.480 --> 00:44:57.960
might just not understand how to access. I don't actually think that it's that

522
00:44:58.599 --> 00:45:02.159
extreme of an idea to think that
maybe there could be a way to unlock

523
00:45:02.519 --> 00:45:08.199
ancestral memories. And I've always really
enjoyed the conspiracy theory. This is my

524
00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:15.079
personal conspiracy theory that KBGB moments are
some of those ancestral memories that are so

525
00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:20.519
locked down, they're so primal,
but it's just an automatic nope from your

526
00:45:21.400 --> 00:45:24.360
body, your nervous system. Nope. Yes, it's not a good situation

527
00:45:24.519 --> 00:45:28.239
to be in. I don't know
what kind of Q comes in, but

528
00:45:28.280 --> 00:45:31.199
there's something have you heard. Have
you ever heard of the uncanny Valley?

529
00:45:31.800 --> 00:45:36.559
Yes, so there's one theory.
I'm not going to say it's a theory

530
00:45:36.559 --> 00:45:37.840
because it's not a real theory.
It's not a scientific theory. It's a

531
00:45:37.880 --> 00:45:42.559
reddit theory, I'll be honest,
but it's a It still gets to be

532
00:45:42.599 --> 00:45:45.280
excited because I think we don't like
it when we see something that's uncanny.

533
00:45:46.079 --> 00:45:52.440
It's it gives us that reaction of
that yuck reaction because it could potentially be

534
00:45:52.639 --> 00:45:58.480
a reminder of a pass where there
was something that's human but not quite human,

535
00:45:59.079 --> 00:46:06.719
either Neanderthals or other human like species. There are people talking about it

536
00:46:06.760 --> 00:46:09.519
could be aliens that look like us, but they're not quite us. And

537
00:46:09.559 --> 00:46:14.440
that's why the uncanny Valley is something
that's used so much in horror movies.

538
00:46:14.599 --> 00:46:17.920
If someone's smiling when they shouldn't be, it's that uncanny feeling of it's just

539
00:46:19.079 --> 00:46:22.599
not quite right, it's just not
quite human. And it could just be

540
00:46:22.719 --> 00:46:28.480
that residual memory that hey, there's
other things out there that aren't human that

541
00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:31.840
look human, but it's a threat. So we feel that yup when we

542
00:46:31.880 --> 00:46:37.440
see something a face that's the uncanny
Valley. I agree, and maybe that

543
00:46:37.519 --> 00:46:43.599
Uncanny Valley is more of that primitive
subconscious brain coming out. Just like you

544
00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:46.800
said. One kind of major plot
hole that I wanted to bring up with

545
00:46:46.880 --> 00:46:57.400
this whole Benajeserit mission is you're trying
to control so many different aspects to create

546
00:46:58.400 --> 00:47:02.599
this messiah and perfect individual that's going
to be able to see both the past

547
00:47:02.760 --> 00:47:09.000
and the future, but you cannot
control how flawed human beings are. Hence

548
00:47:09.079 --> 00:47:15.079
why we end up with Jessica having
a son Paul when she should have had

549
00:47:15.079 --> 00:47:19.440
a woman or a daughter. She
should have known that this mission is way

550
00:47:19.519 --> 00:47:23.559
beyond her or her line or anything
that her husband might want, and that

551
00:47:23.639 --> 00:47:29.559
the greater mission, which has been
in place for centuries for them is to

552
00:47:29.800 --> 00:47:34.559
get to this final cross where one
generation away. And yet she messes this

553
00:47:34.599 --> 00:47:37.519
whole story line up to a degree. But they'll in love with the duke

554
00:47:38.400 --> 00:47:42.559
whatever. See that's exactly it.
Though humans are flawed, So that's the

555
00:47:42.559 --> 00:47:47.719
first law, Like, can we
actually could a theoretical super race exist?

556
00:47:47.880 --> 00:47:53.199
Probably not, because humans are.
And secondly, I really liked the this

557
00:47:53.280 --> 00:47:58.639
is from crap what's his name?
What's what's the name of his videos?

558
00:47:59.239 --> 00:48:04.519
Quinn's idea is yeah, Quinn's ideas. Okay, that's another YouTube channel that's

559
00:48:04.559 --> 00:48:08.159
really yummy if you want to hear
more about Dune or really any other nerd

560
00:48:08.639 --> 00:48:14.639
stuff. He did a phenomenal job
breaking down Dune. But one of the

561
00:48:14.639 --> 00:48:16.719
conspiracy theories that he brought up that
I really liked, or kind of plot

562
00:48:16.719 --> 00:48:22.400
holes and all of this is we're
making a superhuman that's going to be able

563
00:48:22.440 --> 00:48:29.639
to remember all of the past,
both maternal and paternal, and also the

564
00:48:29.719 --> 00:48:32.199
future, and then we're going to
try and control that individual that is a

565
00:48:34.559 --> 00:48:39.199
I just wanted to bring up that
ultimate plot hole. And yeah, eugenics

566
00:48:39.280 --> 00:48:43.559
is a very icky topic. It's
not a good road to go down.

567
00:48:43.679 --> 00:48:49.760
And I don't think as human beings
we are capable of understanding the environmental and

568
00:48:49.840 --> 00:48:59.599
genetic impacts that are constantly changing and
evolving in order to ever manipulate them in

569
00:48:59.639 --> 00:49:04.800
a way that would be better than
nature. It's definitely an interesting phenomenon,

570
00:49:04.840 --> 00:49:07.000
and I think Frank Kerbert was ahead
of his time, and I really liked

571
00:49:07.079 --> 00:49:17.079
his idea of cryptid female choice and
potentially epigenomic click ancestral memory formation. So

572
00:49:17.400 --> 00:49:22.320
in general, very interesting. It's
so interesting, And I think that's one

573
00:49:22.599 --> 00:49:30.000
of my fascinations with the Beny Jester
Order as truly one of the most powerful

574
00:49:30.159 --> 00:49:34.840
beings in this universe, is that
they're they're controlling something so much deeper.

575
00:49:35.480 --> 00:49:39.280
It's they're not like some of the
houses that are just controlling the world's through

576
00:49:39.960 --> 00:49:46.960
raw power and force. They're really
sneaky. And thinking about eugenics, it's,

577
00:49:47.039 --> 00:49:52.639
yeah, you brought up so many
points that it's like it every other

578
00:49:52.760 --> 00:49:55.679
time it's ever been tried, it
goes bad really fast. But I just

579
00:49:55.760 --> 00:50:00.280
feel as a human race, the
idea is still so attractive to us that

580
00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:05.599
we can It's because we want to
play god. But at the end of

581
00:50:05.639 --> 00:50:08.960
the day, the question is always
should we? It's not could we?

582
00:50:09.239 --> 00:50:15.880
Should we? With great power comes
great responsibility, Uncle Ben, It's true.

583
00:50:15.480 --> 00:50:20.719
And so I think there's a lot
of really interesting talking points with Dune,

584
00:50:20.800 --> 00:50:23.239
but I think it's also a cautionary
tale. And I do want to

585
00:50:23.239 --> 00:50:28.320
point out that this is a little
bit of a bummer, but Dune was

586
00:50:28.519 --> 00:50:35.119
published during a time when birth control
and sterilization were heavily promoted in non white

587
00:50:35.159 --> 00:50:42.199
American populations, so Frank Herbert was
ahead of his time as a scientific science

588
00:50:42.239 --> 00:50:47.159
fiction writer. But also it is
this whole concept of eugenics and creative,

589
00:50:47.400 --> 00:50:57.280
this ultimate human being and superpower of
wall fantastically interesting, is socially insensitive?

590
00:50:58.360 --> 00:51:01.639
Yeah, And that's just I think
that's it's just an interesting thing to always

591
00:51:02.039 --> 00:51:07.960
be reminded of because someone like me, my whole mission is human performance is

592
00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:14.760
how can we make the human better? And it's just such a grave reminder

593
00:51:14.840 --> 00:51:19.599
that don't play god. But where
is that line? What is it look

594
00:51:19.719 --> 00:51:22.920
like for me to try and be
the best athlete I can be? You

595
00:51:22.920 --> 00:51:28.000
can talk about it from really anything, that survival of the fittest, because

596
00:51:28.039 --> 00:51:32.079
the fittest wasn't meant like physical fitness. It meant ability to survive and procreate.

597
00:51:32.239 --> 00:51:38.039
So sometimes that meant physical beauty because
the most beautiful were the ones breeding.

598
00:51:38.719 --> 00:51:44.079
And sometimes it was physical fitness so
you could hunt and gather and live.

599
00:51:44.719 --> 00:51:47.000
Yeah, And just like you said, so long as you're reproducing,

600
00:51:47.079 --> 00:51:51.400
that's fine. It's like a butterfly, right. A butterfly lives for one

601
00:51:51.480 --> 00:51:54.079
day, but so long as it
can make during that one day, that's

602
00:51:54.159 --> 00:52:00.000
fine, best day of its life. I think about where does that line

603
00:52:00.119 --> 00:52:07.039
and fall between playing god and just
trying to experiment with advancing and enhancing ourselves.

604
00:52:07.119 --> 00:52:12.199
Because in another episode the season,
we talked about augmenting soldiers, and

605
00:52:12.239 --> 00:52:16.239
we're talking about things like prosthetics and
things like implants where we can enhance our

606
00:52:16.320 --> 00:52:20.679
vision, and there's so many things
that humans are always trying to do to

607
00:52:20.800 --> 00:52:25.079
enhance ourselves. Where do you feel
like that line is between exactly human augmentation

608
00:52:25.199 --> 00:52:31.360
and enhancement and eugenics that could potentially
devastate a population. I really can't speak

609
00:52:31.400 --> 00:52:37.400
to that. I am very passionate
about drug development, and there are a

610
00:52:37.440 --> 00:52:43.199
lot of really fabulous gene therapies that
are on the market or evolving right now

611
00:52:43.760 --> 00:52:50.679
in which we're able to edit somebody's
gene to improve a disease state. That's

612
00:52:50.880 --> 00:52:57.639
very important research that I'm super passionate
about. That line does get very complex

613
00:52:57.760 --> 00:53:01.760
very fast. To me, it's
if you're improving somebody's life and moving them

614
00:53:01.760 --> 00:53:06.840
away from a disease state, I
think that's wonderful. If we're talking about

615
00:53:07.519 --> 00:53:16.440
selecting characteristics based off of population preference, cultural preference, or the time period's

616
00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:22.239
preference, then I think that's incredibly
problematic. If it's for a asthetic courage

617
00:53:22.320 --> 00:53:25.639
and reason. But I just wanted
to make the argument that you might think

618
00:53:25.679 --> 00:53:31.199
that you're picking the traits that will
increase fitness or make this ultimate human,

619
00:53:31.239 --> 00:53:37.880
but you can't foresee every inevitability and
so as a result, you will mess

620
00:53:37.880 --> 00:53:42.679
it up. It's crap. What's
that Michael Creton character, who he's always

621
00:53:42.679 --> 00:53:45.960
got the chaos theory. It's the
chaos theory. Yeah, oh my goodness,

622
00:53:45.079 --> 00:53:49.880
Eric, Yes, thank you,
it's the chaos theory. So yeah,

623
00:53:50.559 --> 00:53:52.960
because you think about that. I
think he just brought up such a

624
00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:55.039
great point there about what's going to
be the preferred traits. We can't predict

625
00:53:55.079 --> 00:53:59.599
that because currently, based on society, these certain traits might be more desirable,

626
00:53:59.599 --> 00:54:01.800
but that's actually going to be better
for humanity. If I lived in

627
00:54:02.199 --> 00:54:06.199
China, my feet would have been
way too big, and they did things

628
00:54:06.239 --> 00:54:09.320
to try and change their feet.
Certain incas in my hands would flatten their

629
00:54:09.320 --> 00:54:14.480
foreheads because that was the more desirable
trait. And if we're trying to,

630
00:54:14.639 --> 00:54:17.159
like you said, play god,
and we're trying to force certain traits out

631
00:54:17.159 --> 00:54:22.000
of a population, those traits might
fall out of favor one hundred years from

632
00:54:22.039 --> 00:54:27.679
now exactly, or even on a
shorter time timetable. We have no idea

633
00:54:27.800 --> 00:54:32.800
what pandemics are around the corner next, or what kind of major climate change

634
00:54:32.840 --> 00:54:37.480
events could happen that might favor individuals. Let's say it's even something as basical

635
00:54:37.519 --> 00:54:44.079
as brown or blonde hair, like
there could be a genetic predisposition in individuals

636
00:54:44.239 --> 00:54:49.400
brown hair to handle heat better,
let's say, and then global temperatures start

637
00:54:49.519 --> 00:54:52.639
rising and all of a sudden,
you've been selecting for blonde babies in your

638
00:54:52.719 --> 00:54:59.880
designer baby experiment and you don't have
as many brown, red haired children or

639
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:04.000
whatever. That's a silly example,
but that really gets me thinking because you

640
00:55:04.039 --> 00:55:07.840
think about where some of these things
have naturally shown up through just nature.

641
00:55:08.239 --> 00:55:15.880
My understanding is that cystic fiberosis came
from the bubonic plague because during the time

642
00:55:15.920 --> 00:55:19.719
of the plague, which lasted way
longer than anybody realizes. I think it

643
00:55:19.760 --> 00:55:22.559
was like two hundred years, right, I have no idea, but I

644
00:55:22.599 --> 00:55:25.320
know it was really way longer.
It was long longer than you think,

645
00:55:25.960 --> 00:55:32.199
and so cistic fiberosis is something that
kind of came from plague times because people

646
00:55:32.440 --> 00:55:37.840
who had thicker mucus to begin with
were surviving the plague, because it wasn't

647
00:55:37.840 --> 00:55:42.280
necessarily the plague that killed you,
it was dehydration, and so people who

648
00:55:42.320 --> 00:55:47.119
were predisposed to thicker mucus survived.
And that's why people of European descent are

649
00:55:47.159 --> 00:55:52.280
more predisposed to cystic vibrosis, because
their likelihood of having thicker mucus is so

650
00:55:52.360 --> 00:55:55.920
much higher. And I don't quite
understand how genetic works, but that's something

651
00:55:55.960 --> 00:56:02.000
I've heard. And you have a
similar example with sickle cell disease and malaria

652
00:56:02.719 --> 00:56:08.519
exactly, and that's more prone in
people who have a African descent because those

653
00:56:08.519 --> 00:56:15.000
were regions where they developed a resistance
to malaria naturally, and now it's becoming

654
00:56:15.039 --> 00:56:20.280
a problem with sickle cell yep.
That's an excellent example. Or I study

655
00:56:20.320 --> 00:56:25.760
hemochromatosis, which is an iron overload
disease, and there's a hypothesis that human

656
00:56:25.840 --> 00:56:31.159
chromatosis is so prevalent. One in
ten Northern Europeans is a carrier for human

657
00:56:31.199 --> 00:56:39.400
chromatosis variant because having higher iron allows
you to survive blood loss better. And

658
00:56:40.760 --> 00:56:49.039
what was the number one mortality event
in the past, childbirth, So females

659
00:56:49.159 --> 00:56:52.039
with higher iron might be able to
survive child but birth better. So it

660
00:56:52.119 --> 00:56:55.960
just goes to show high iron can
lead to the development of type two diabetes,

661
00:56:57.039 --> 00:57:02.599
liver cirrhosis in older age, probably
passed thirty years of age in males,

662
00:57:02.639 --> 00:57:07.440
and then after menopause for females.
So that's an example of a trait

663
00:57:07.800 --> 00:57:16.639
that might not impact your sexual fitness
necessarily, but having it could be beneficial

664
00:57:16.840 --> 00:57:21.519
to you surviving some of these events, but also negative in that you could

665
00:57:21.559 --> 00:57:25.159
develop type two diabetes or liver cirrhosis
and damage. So it's just really interesting

666
00:57:25.239 --> 00:57:28.639
to see those trade offs. So
you might think, oh, it would

667
00:57:28.639 --> 00:57:34.280
be beneficial if we got rid of
HFE variants, but then you don't know

668
00:57:34.559 --> 00:57:38.320
if having these iron bear are going
to carry some sort of benefit or even

669
00:57:38.320 --> 00:57:43.719
a benefit in individuals who just carry
one copy of the variant. Wow.

670
00:57:43.800 --> 00:57:49.320
So that truly blows my mind.
And I've always understood that that eugenics was

671
00:57:49.400 --> 00:57:52.679
bad, but I'd never feel like
I've had anyone explain it to me so

672
00:57:52.800 --> 00:57:57.400
thoroughly, because I knew the eugenics
was bad, I knew that genetic variation

673
00:57:57.599 --> 00:58:00.119
was generally good, but to truly
highlight, Hey, look, we don't

674
00:58:00.199 --> 00:58:04.880
know what genes are going to show
up to be beneficial or harmful down the

675
00:58:04.960 --> 00:58:07.599
road. You don't want to play
gods. You do want to let it

676
00:58:07.679 --> 00:58:13.280
naturally play out. And that's so
interesting to me to think that what might

677
00:58:13.320 --> 00:58:17.639
be deemed as a genetic disadvantage today
could be a massive advantage hundreds of years

678
00:58:17.679 --> 00:58:22.440
from now. And the important thing
is it's always a changing landscape and we

679
00:58:22.599 --> 00:58:25.599
can't predict how the environment will change. We can try, but the one

680
00:58:25.639 --> 00:58:30.360
thing we can be certain of is
that it will change. Yeah, that's

681
00:58:30.360 --> 00:58:35.159
a powerful epic to cover, but
so fascinating and to really think about how

682
00:58:35.159 --> 00:58:37.599
the Benny Jester were doing this and
hey, look it didn't work out for

683
00:58:37.639 --> 00:58:42.239
them. So we're going to have
our reality check moment here in just a

684
00:58:42.280 --> 00:58:46.840
minute. So what do you think
is add up our one to five scale,

685
00:58:46.920 --> 00:58:53.000
one being pure fiction, five being
science fact. What is the plausibility

686
00:58:53.360 --> 00:59:01.480
of having the sort of directed evolution
through human genetic manipulation? Where are we

687
00:59:01.519 --> 00:59:06.000
at on a one to five scale? So I think that's a difficult question.

688
00:59:06.039 --> 00:59:09.320
If you're just talking about directed evolution, could we do selective breeding?

689
00:59:09.519 --> 00:59:14.800
I think that's very plausible and that
would be like a five. But if

690
00:59:14.800 --> 00:59:20.960
we add in these layers of complexity
like the cryptid female choice and the epic

691
00:59:21.360 --> 00:59:25.639
memory and ancestral memory element. Then
I feel like we go down to a

692
00:59:25.800 --> 00:59:31.000
three point five at the highest,
where there's some very fantastical ideas here,

693
00:59:31.039 --> 00:59:38.719
but they're still rooted in this very
basic genetic concept. Breeding different animal populations

694
00:59:38.719 --> 00:59:45.079
for a desirable trait is not novel, and farmers and breeders have gotten very

695
00:59:45.079 --> 00:59:49.159
good at this. I'm sure we
could do it in humans if we wanted

696
00:59:49.199 --> 00:59:52.360
to. That doesn't mean it's morally
acceptable to do or the right thing to

697
00:59:52.400 --> 00:59:58.440
do, as we just talked through, but it is feasible. I think

698
00:59:58.480 --> 01:00:06.440
it's more interesting to think about elements
of the ancestral memory recovery that make it

699
01:00:06.480 --> 01:00:09.119
so fantastical, and so that's why
I would give it a three point five.

700
01:00:10.320 --> 01:00:14.079
Yeah, no, and that's great
answer. And I think something to

701
01:00:14.119 --> 01:00:21.039
remember is farmers have something going for
them that human directed evolution doesn't. Is

702
01:00:21.119 --> 01:00:24.360
they can control it. Can control
what their animals are doing far easier than

703
01:00:24.400 --> 01:00:29.079
it is to control people. There's
a difference of free will. We have

704
01:00:29.280 --> 01:00:32.880
so much more opinions than a dog
does. My dog is happy as long

705
01:00:32.920 --> 01:00:37.880
as he has food, water,
and snuggles and humans have. Lady Jessica,

706
01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:44.360
she fell in love, she went
against the orders, and that's something

707
01:00:44.400 --> 01:00:46.719
it's like, it sounds like we'll
never really truly be able to control people

708
01:00:46.719 --> 01:00:52.079
because people will always have opinions.
It's true, and even more so than

709
01:00:52.079 --> 01:00:54.760
falling in love. To me,
I think part of it was ego.

710
01:00:55.599 --> 01:00:59.840
There was definitely a love component there
from the storyline, but I think there

711
01:00:59.880 --> 01:01:04.840
was even more of an ego component. I could be the mother of this

712
01:01:05.400 --> 01:01:08.360
messiah like figure. Who wouldn't want
that? Of course you're going to try

713
01:01:08.400 --> 01:01:12.480
and cut those corners. Yeah,
I think at the end of the day,

714
01:01:12.519 --> 01:01:16.320
that's the chaos theory, right.
Humans are flawed people and we will

715
01:01:16.320 --> 01:01:21.840
never overcome that. So in a
perfect system, if there was like no

716
01:01:22.039 --> 01:01:27.280
free will, could you do it? Yeah, biologically possible to do selective

717
01:01:27.320 --> 01:01:35.239
breeding, but morally apprehensible. And
then also when you incorporate free will impossible.

718
01:01:35.679 --> 01:01:38.440
Yeah. Wow. Genetics is something
that is infinitely fascinating to me,

719
01:01:38.679 --> 01:01:43.519
and it is really such an emerging
field. We didn't even get to touch

720
01:01:43.559 --> 01:01:45.840
on things like Crisper today, and
that's something that I'm hoping to maybe get

721
01:01:45.840 --> 01:01:52.760
to on some other episodes because it's
really truly an emerging science that is going

722
01:01:52.800 --> 01:01:54.960
to change. It's going to change
the base of our world. I think

723
01:01:55.039 --> 01:02:00.519
that's just a fact. Would you
tend to agree that our genetic und standing

724
01:02:00.559 --> 01:02:04.360
now is going to change the world. I definitely agree with that. You're

725
01:02:04.360 --> 01:02:06.639
like I would hope so, because
that's why you got into it. And

726
01:02:06.719 --> 01:02:12.239
hopefully again we choose to change things
for positive and we go the route of

727
01:02:12.400 --> 01:02:15.079
Uncle Ben and Spider Man. We
use our powers for good and not for

728
01:02:15.159 --> 01:02:21.480
bad, and that the scientists and
the policy makers in the public interests where

729
01:02:21.480 --> 01:02:27.719
the money's going is always going to
be choosing to put our efforts towards positively

730
01:02:27.760 --> 01:02:31.519
advancing the human race and understanding the
negative consequences. So, with all that

731
01:02:31.559 --> 01:02:37.199
being said, is there any final
thoughts before we sign off for the day.

732
01:02:37.599 --> 01:02:43.280
I think we've really covered it today. Eugenics is evil, cryptid female

733
01:02:43.360 --> 01:02:50.320
choices super interesting in a field that
could have a lot more interesting developments in

734
01:02:50.360 --> 01:02:55.280
our future. Epignomic memory is really
interesting. And also we might think we

735
01:02:55.400 --> 01:03:00.239
know best, but we should play
god. Oh it so much? All

736
01:03:00.320 --> 01:03:05.079
right, everybody, thank you so
much for listening to reality Check. Thank

737
01:03:05.119 --> 01:03:08.119
you so much for joining Thank you
so much for inviting me Heidi. It

738
01:03:08.159 --> 01:03:08.920
was nice to see you