Say What They Can't Unhear - Tamsen Webster

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You can't breathe.

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One, two, three, four, five, six,
seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven,

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twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen,
sixteen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty.

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Twenty seven, eighteen, nineteen,
twenty one, twenty two, twenty three,

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twenty four, twenty five, twenty
six, twenty seven, twenty eight.

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in orbit.

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Nola Simon: Thank you
so much for joining me.

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I'm Nola Simon.

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I'm the host of the Hybrid Remote
Center of Excellence and joining

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me today is Tamsen Webster.

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She is a prime example of somebody that
I've built a relationship with over time.

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I've actually followed
Tamsen probably for years.

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When did the red thread come out?

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That came out in

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Tamsen Webster: 2021,

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Nola Simon: but I've been

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Tamsen Webster: talking about the
red thread for eight years now.

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Nola Simon: So my role was
actually my corporate role was

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actually restructured in 2020.

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So I started paying attention to LinkedIn.

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I wasn't writing, but
I was consuming a lot.

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And so I think I started
noticing you around there.

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So I've honestly been following
you probably since then, but

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I just connected this year.

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And I had attended one of your workshops
that one of my other podcast guests

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Marty Constant had made available.

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And then I connected after that.

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So I always tell people I, I don't
accept pitches from my podcast.

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I like to invite people that
I've got to know online.

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So I know your work, and Tansyn's work
has been instrumental to helping me

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develop the messaging for my business.

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And I'm really excited that she's
come out now with a new book,

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another new book, which is called
Say What They Can't Unhear.

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And I gotta tell you, the ding is
something that we really have to talk

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about because I know that although it
manifests differently for me as well.

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Tamsen, how do you
describe your profession?

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Obviously you're an author,
you're a keynote speaker you're

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deeply involved with TED Talks
How do you describe yourself?

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Like what's your perfect
message to deliver who you are?

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Tamsen Webster: So I, for folks that
would understand at least somewhat

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intuitively I say that I'm message
designer, so I have, after a lot of

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trial and error, that seems to be
something where most people generally.

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Yes, correctly what that probably means.

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So meaning you've got something
you want to say and you're trying

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to figure out how to say it.

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I help you do that.

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My more my like sassier answer, my
cheekier answer, which is also correct is

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that I'm an English to English translator.

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Because I think that's
what I'm I help people do.

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But fundamentally, I feel like that
my I don't even feel, I know that

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my deep passion is helping people
help other people create change.

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And so whatever I can put together,
learn, process, size, tams and eyes,

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whatever, to help people really get what
their, their difference of perspective,

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their approaches, their offerings,
their ideas, their initiatives, all of

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these things that they're, investing
time and money in to make a change for

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themselves, for the world, for clients,
customers, whatever it might be.

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I want to make sure that they have as
much opportunity for success as possible.

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And so that's where I come in because I've
somehow cobbled together this deep and

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long interest, both in transformational
change and in communications.

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And so I've put those together.

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To create message design.

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Awesome.

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Nola Simon: Perfect.

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Yeah.

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I was always fascinated that part of your
origin story really is Weight Watchers.

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And a lot of that, when you're trying
to lose weight is cause I remember my

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mom did this probably in the eighties.

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A lot of it is,

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She did manage to lose a lot of weight.

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She came back, but that, that was always
something that caught my attention

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because I remember her experience
with that, but a lot of times it's the

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stories that you tell yourself, right?

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Tamsen Webster: Yes, absolutely.

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And yes, it is a hundred percent.

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I think it's to quote one of my members
she always said that it's 99 percent

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mental and the rest is just food.

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And that's, that is, we know now
that's, it's not quite as pure as that.

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I think that's one of the things I'm
delighted that science has caught up

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with what was observable in the 13 years
that I was a Weight Watchers leader.

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And that is, is that.

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There are fundamental physiological
differences between people that

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no amount of retraining your
thoughts or positive self talk

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or willpower will, will overcome.

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And so it's not that it's not possible.

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It's just that it was one of the of so
many lessons I learned in the years that

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I moonlighted as a Weight Watchers leader.

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One of them is that to be very
wary of one size fits all.

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Anything, right?

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One size fits all approach.

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One size fits all message.

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Because.

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That is bearing it, that bears with it
a lot of assumptions about what you're

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offering and who you're talking to.

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And those can get you in
trouble on both sides.

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I don't like getting in trouble that
way, which is probably why I've spent

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so much time You know, because I've
had some horror stories of just whoop,

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that was not the right way to say that.

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And so that's, that's part of
where all this has come from.

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And now that I've gotten to a certain
point in my life, in my career, where I

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feel like it's mathematically impossible
for me to be the age that I am, but

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there are some objective truths, that I
really have gotten to a point where it's.

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Where I feel like, I have
something to say on this like I,

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I, I have put all this together.

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I've seen this work.

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I've done the work.

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I have done the research.

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I have done the testing just to see what
it is that works and doesn't work so

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that within a world that is constantly
changing and with people who are you

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know, I feel I have something to say on
this like I, I Just absolutely different.

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Person to person in so
many different ways.

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What are some of the things that are
reliably true, no matter what, no matter

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who you're talking to, no matter what the
situation is, because that I think gives

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you at least a place to start and gives
you a place to start where you're starting

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with the strength of what is Thanks.

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Known, right?

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This is how people think about things,
this is how people make sense of

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information, this is how people react
when they're treated a certain way.

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If those are some of the things that
either will move a change forward or

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back or get in the way of the message or
accelerate it, , it, solvable problems.

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Unsolved solvable problems drive me nuts.

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And this is one of those where I, when I
come to looking at messaging and change

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messaging, I'm like these, most of the
things, most of the places where we go

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wrong are completely solvable and I just
really wanted to help people solve that.

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Nola Simon: Yeah, no, it makes sense.

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So in Tamsyn's book, she has these
nine principles that are they're so

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logical, they're so straightforward,
but they're brilliant, right?

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Thank you.

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And one of them that really caught my
attention, I think that's really where

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you're talking about this too, is the
deepest beliefs are the hardest to shift.

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And I always found that because
I always lived north of the north

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of Toronto and worked in the city.

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And so they would the company
would often come out with like

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messages that were designed to
be for the majority of employees.

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I wasn't the majority of employees
because I didn't live in the city.

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I, A lot of and a lot of times I didn't
fit so they would come out my favorite

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was always the, let's save the planet.

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Let's bike to work.

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I don't know.

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I live 60 kilometers north of
the city like that's not going

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Tamsen Webster: to

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Nola Simon: happen.

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You can't bike on the freeway for one.

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It's illegal to I'm probably going to be.

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I'm still biking six hours later and then
I have to turn around and go home, right?

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So fundamentally, like my belief
was, this is not a message that's

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designed for me because you have
no clue how I even get to work.

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You don't even know who I am.

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Tamsen Webster: Or that's, oh, or
that's all you're left to think,

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absent the information, any other
information being put out there.

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So Again, it's such a
solvable problem, right?

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All that take, took, all that
would take is a, I'm no grammarian

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a dependent clause that says, for
those of you who live in the city.

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But, right?

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Yeah.

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Because at least what that
does is say, this is for you.

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And when it comes to those deep beliefs,
so the way that I, as you probably figured

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out by reading these things they're
all like nine different perspectives

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on what kind of sits in the center is.

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The same thing.

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It's not all the same thing, but it's
different avenues into this kind of nut

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of what is it that people have to hear in
order to understand and adapt a new idea.

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And.

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The deepest beliefs are
the hardest to shift.

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That one is in the trio, like that
one sits at the heart of the book.

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It's number five.

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So it's like literally in the
middle of all the pieces, because I

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think, for me, it is one of the most
counterintuitive principles of inspiring

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long term change or creating the
conditions that are more likely for it.

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And there's good reasons for that.

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The good reason for it is that it's
counterintuitive is that when we think

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about deep beliefs and, we'll acknowledge
that they're hard to shift, and the

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reason why I chose that phrasing was
because most people, A, would agree with

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it, but B, they see that as a problem.

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They see that it's a problem that
deep beliefs are hard to shift.

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And my perspective is that.

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No belief.

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Very few beliefs.

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Let me be careful.

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One always has to be
careful with absolutes.

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Very few beliefs that anybody
holds are equally true for

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them in every context, right?

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And what I mean by that is so all that
has to happen when you combine that

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principle with let's say every decision
has a story, which is the second one,

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which is All someone has to hear is
something else they believe to be true

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or recognize as true that is just as
strong or stronger and that they can

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notch into the story they're telling
themselves, but in a different way.

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And though I didn't have the language
for it back when I was a weight watchers

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leader it's again, one of the ones that,
that truly had its birth there because

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so often, your experience with weight
loss was my experience with weight loss,

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which is that I had tried and failed any
number of times before I finally found

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and created this kind of combination
of factors that, that worked for me.

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And certainly one of the things that
I observed over 13 years was that

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one of the biggest and most dangerous
things that could happen was someone

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faulting themselves for failure and
adding that to the mental tally of

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this belief that I can't do this thing.

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And so often when that's the operating
deep belief, I just can't, it's my genes.

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Like I'm just destined to be this way.

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And I felt that way about myself,
which is just like I come from

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a family of overweight women.

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And so maybe this is just
who I'm supposed to be.

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And what I found that was the antidote
to that kind of, setting where

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people set themselves up for failure
was instead of saying, put okay.

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Instead of putting all your eggs in a
belief that you haven't tested this is

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possible for me, or in a new behavior of
let me stop eating some food that I love.

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What would happen if, it really started
with a question, what would happen if

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we could map over something that they
are already good at someplace else?

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And for me personally,
just as an example, I am.

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almost pathologically a rule follower
and a systems follower, which is

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one of the reasons why for me Weight
watchers was a really good match.

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It is not a good match for people who
See it as a constricting framework.

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And or and aren't able or don't
have a leader who could show them or

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present them with a different way to
conceive of those same guidelines.

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But for me, it was like, once I found a
system, I was like, yes, this is awesome.

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I am great at following rules.

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Just give me rules as long as the
rules aren't too hard to follow.

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And for me, it was like mapping that
over and saying, oh, it's just a budget.

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And instead of thinking of myself
like, oh, I'm a bad person, food is

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good or bad, it for me, that system
neutralized the emotional attachment

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to it all to, to me, to, to the food.

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And so again, for me, once it, once, it
was, this is just about, solving a puzzle.

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Another thing I love, like
how do I get the food I want?

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into this framework that's
being presented to me, then it

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became actually like a game.

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Not one that I chose to gamify, because,
again, a thing I learned over time,

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was that, like, when you're trying
to play that game you win, you lose,

226
00:13:48,032 --> 00:13:49,052
and if you lose, you win, right?

227
00:13:49,052 --> 00:13:51,002
It's just you're, it's all you.

228
00:13:51,002 --> 00:13:52,382
Who are you trying to win against?

229
00:13:52,482 --> 00:13:53,682
Who are you playing against?

230
00:13:53,987 --> 00:13:54,647
Exactly.

231
00:13:54,947 --> 00:13:58,987
And, but I would, so once I was like
that, again, it wasn't the program

232
00:13:58,987 --> 00:14:04,407
that worked for me so much as there
was this aspect of the program that

233
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I could link to something that I was
already confident that I did well.

234
00:14:08,947 --> 00:14:09,787
And so that was a

235
00:14:09,787 --> 00:14:10,457
Nola Simon: stacking.

236
00:14:10,807 --> 00:14:13,297
Before habit stacking was a thing, really.

237
00:14:15,127 --> 00:14:17,417
Tamsen Webster: Yeah, because
it was just like this idea

238
00:14:17,417 --> 00:14:19,267
of again I'm, I love puzzles.

239
00:14:19,277 --> 00:14:20,257
Let me figure this out.

240
00:14:20,267 --> 00:14:22,007
Let me let me figure out how to do this.

241
00:14:22,017 --> 00:14:23,567
And I'm also a little ornery.

242
00:14:23,597 --> 00:14:24,717
I'm contrarian.

243
00:14:24,727 --> 00:14:29,137
So if you're like, It's not
possible to keep doing X, Y, or Z.

244
00:14:29,477 --> 00:14:32,817
Then I'm like I'm going to see if
it's possible if I can still have

245
00:14:32,817 --> 00:14:35,557
dark chocolate every day, and I
can still have my ice cream, and

246
00:14:35,557 --> 00:14:36,927
I can still have these things.

247
00:14:36,927 --> 00:14:40,087
The whole reason why I joined walked
into Weight Watchers for the first

248
00:14:40,087 --> 00:14:44,797
day is because I saw this hilarious
episode of the Oprah Winfrey show.

249
00:14:45,012 --> 00:14:48,142
When Sarah, the Duchess of
Ferguson was on here, this is

250
00:14:48,142 --> 00:14:50,042
dating me rather significantly.

251
00:14:50,072 --> 00:14:50,512
That's okay.

252
00:14:50,512 --> 00:14:51,452
We're the same age.

253
00:14:52,262 --> 00:14:52,502
Yeah.

254
00:14:53,032 --> 00:14:58,222
And they were, they like a got themselves
pretty much drunk on television and

255
00:14:58,222 --> 00:15:01,782
then attempted these two women who
really don't cook for themselves

256
00:15:01,802 --> 00:15:03,212
to make chocolate chip cookies.

257
00:15:03,522 --> 00:15:08,092
And I just, Hey, it was such like a
joyful thing, but also this whole idea

258
00:15:08,092 --> 00:15:11,882
of Oh, it linked into to bring it back
to some of the things that I talk about

259
00:15:11,882 --> 00:15:15,412
in the book, something that I recognized
is true, which is that if I couldn't

260
00:15:15,452 --> 00:15:21,142
lose weight doing the things that I
love, how could I possibly keep it off?

261
00:15:21,732 --> 00:15:25,907
So it just again from a thing that
You know, from assessing for myself.

262
00:15:25,907 --> 00:15:29,887
What hadn't worked in the past was
like, okay, if it's too restrictive,

263
00:15:29,887 --> 00:15:30,797
I'm not going to stay on it.

264
00:15:30,797 --> 00:15:34,837
If I telling me if I don't, if I feel
embarrassed about telling somebody

265
00:15:34,847 --> 00:15:39,497
else what I'm doing to lose weight or
to get healthy I'm not going to do it.

266
00:15:39,737 --> 00:15:41,657
If it's too extreme,
I'm not going to do it.

267
00:15:41,657 --> 00:15:47,817
And so it was really getting to a point
of saying, okay, I know what I need

268
00:15:47,827 --> 00:15:49,607
from something in order to make it work.

269
00:15:49,617 --> 00:15:52,817
And then it was just about
finding that intersection.

270
00:15:53,557 --> 00:15:57,967
And that was the role that I saw
myself as a way watchers leader with

271
00:15:57,997 --> 00:16:03,087
my members was, one thing that they
said that the company said to me once

272
00:16:03,087 --> 00:16:04,927
upon a time, which I couldn't unhear.

273
00:16:04,927 --> 00:16:08,177
And I still use this in any number of
ways was, they said to us at one point

274
00:16:08,177 --> 00:16:13,127
during ongoing training that we would
have that, our job was to be the expert.

275
00:16:13,467 --> 00:16:19,387
In the program and to recognize that our
members were the expert in themselves

276
00:16:20,237 --> 00:16:26,917
and that our job was to figure out how
to blend the expertise, not to presume

277
00:16:26,937 --> 00:16:29,917
that we knew what the right way to do.

278
00:16:29,917 --> 00:16:36,462
The program was for them, but to get
as much information and the Understand

279
00:16:36,462 --> 00:16:42,322
the program so thoroughly that we could
really adapt it to wherever somebody was.

280
00:16:42,332 --> 00:16:44,772
So an example, I find a window

281
00:16:44,772 --> 00:16:45,602
Nola Simon: or a door,

282
00:16:46,282 --> 00:16:46,662
Tamsen Webster: right?

283
00:16:46,692 --> 00:16:47,272
Exactly.

284
00:16:47,282 --> 00:16:51,292
And one of those windows of the
doors was I grew up in the point

285
00:16:51,292 --> 00:16:54,332
system of Weight Watchers, which
is basically like a budget, right?

286
00:16:54,332 --> 00:17:00,137
You get a certain number of Points to eat
in a day and food has points and your job,

287
00:17:00,177 --> 00:17:06,117
like a budget, is don't go over budget and
one of the things that was very difficult

288
00:17:06,127 --> 00:17:13,387
for people was when they deeply believed
that they were a night eater, like a

289
00:17:13,387 --> 00:17:17,057
label that they would assign to themselves
saying that they're a night eater and

290
00:17:17,077 --> 00:17:20,722
what that means for folks that may not
be familiar with that term is that it.

291
00:17:21,292 --> 00:17:26,432
They were they were great fleeing
things that you were they were,

292
00:17:26,522 --> 00:17:30,622
they felt like they really had
great and strong control through

293
00:17:30,622 --> 00:17:33,622
most of the day and through dinner.

294
00:17:34,022 --> 00:17:38,332
And then somewhere between dinner and
bedtime, the wheels would just come off.

295
00:17:39,002 --> 00:17:40,102
And some of that.

296
00:17:40,242 --> 00:17:43,732
As I observed over time again,
13 years and, with a number of

297
00:17:43,732 --> 00:17:48,012
meetings that I led in, around my
day job, I did the math one time.

298
00:17:48,012 --> 00:17:49,952
It was 3000 meetings.

299
00:17:50,482 --> 00:17:53,242
You pick up some data from doing that.

300
00:17:53,702 --> 00:17:55,167
And one of the things that I did.

301
00:17:55,687 --> 00:18:00,337
Picked up was that people that would
get so desperate because they would

302
00:18:00,337 --> 00:18:05,247
run out of points because the, the
points have worked for 24 hours.

303
00:18:05,297 --> 00:18:06,947
Most people started them in the morning.

304
00:18:06,947 --> 00:18:10,997
And so again, if you get to the end
of the day and at the time they wanted

305
00:18:10,997 --> 00:18:17,107
to or needed to eat or, do whatever
food was doing for them was the time

306
00:18:17,107 --> 00:18:18,017
when they had the fewest points.

307
00:18:18,992 --> 00:18:20,842
And they had got a lot of them again.

308
00:18:20,842 --> 00:18:24,402
We get to that point where they were
just like, then I can't do this because

309
00:18:24,442 --> 00:18:26,792
the program doesn't work with who I am.

310
00:18:27,702 --> 00:18:31,272
And I spent some time trying to
figure this one out for people

311
00:18:31,282 --> 00:18:34,252
because there really are a lot of
people for whom this is a challenge.

312
00:18:34,682 --> 00:18:40,662
And then I was like but there's
nowhere in this literature that says

313
00:18:40,662 --> 00:18:43,252
the points start in the morning.

314
00:18:43,432 --> 00:18:45,882
The points are just 24 hours.

315
00:18:46,432 --> 00:18:50,942
What I ended up doing was
saying to them, hey, guess what?

316
00:18:51,802 --> 00:18:56,432
There's no, nothing says that you have
to start the points in the morning.

317
00:18:57,042 --> 00:18:59,282
It's just 24 hours of points.

318
00:18:59,302 --> 00:19:02,312
And yeah, it's going to mean you're
going to need to play with the journaling

319
00:19:02,322 --> 00:19:05,272
things that we've got and where
you write things down a little bit.

320
00:19:05,652 --> 00:19:09,512
But as long as you can feel like
you can keep track, then start your

321
00:19:09,512 --> 00:19:15,942
points at dinner because deeper
belief that I anchored it to.

322
00:19:16,347 --> 00:19:18,067
That there's 24 hours in a day.

323
00:19:18,542 --> 00:19:18,782
Yeah.

324
00:19:18,862 --> 00:19:22,342
And that 24 hours can start at any time.

325
00:19:22,832 --> 00:19:26,472
And so for many people, I'm
not saying all, but for many

326
00:19:26,472 --> 00:19:28,562
people, just that simple shift.

327
00:19:28,562 --> 00:19:30,732
Again, I didn't have to tell
them they weren't night eaters.

328
00:19:30,962 --> 00:19:32,532
I didn't have to change who they were.

329
00:19:32,892 --> 00:19:36,822
All I was doing was saying,
there is something else that is

330
00:19:36,862 --> 00:19:41,662
actually, in this case, outside
of you, that's even more reliable.

331
00:19:42,157 --> 00:19:45,247
That it that when it comes
together with you actually

332
00:19:45,247 --> 00:19:46,897
gives you a path forward here.

333
00:19:47,337 --> 00:19:47,717
And

334
00:19:47,717 --> 00:19:50,497
Nola Simon: that works too for, cause
like people who work night shifts,

335
00:19:50,837 --> 00:19:53,947
it's a way to be more flexible
with the reality of who they're

336
00:19:54,297 --> 00:19:55,467
like, who they are in their life.

337
00:19:55,517 --> 00:19:55,657
Tamsen Webster: Yeah.

338
00:19:55,727 --> 00:19:55,897
And.

339
00:19:56,317 --> 00:19:57,677
There's always something like that.

340
00:19:57,697 --> 00:20:01,847
I I should say I always start with
the assumption or the belief that

341
00:20:01,847 --> 00:20:06,667
there's something like that because
it allows me to start looking for it.

342
00:20:06,717 --> 00:20:10,967
Then, if I come into any situation
where I'm trying to help someone

343
00:20:10,967 --> 00:20:14,777
change or help someone help other
people or their organization change.

344
00:20:15,967 --> 00:20:20,117
If I come in saying, how do we
get them to say yes to this?

345
00:20:20,537 --> 00:20:25,532
Then I've created a really binary
situation where it's just Yes, not

346
00:20:25,532 --> 00:20:31,552
yes to this change, not how can I
open up and say, All right, we are

347
00:20:31,552 --> 00:20:34,492
trying to achieve this larger thing.

348
00:20:35,152 --> 00:20:37,082
Are we all in agreement about that?

349
00:20:37,112 --> 00:20:40,842
Are we trying, in Weight Watchers,
are we trying to achieve health goals?

350
00:20:41,422 --> 00:20:41,852
Yeah.

351
00:20:41,902 --> 00:20:42,442
Okay, great.

352
00:20:42,852 --> 00:20:46,202
Then as long as we're in agreement
about that, we're going to start there.

353
00:20:46,322 --> 00:20:49,952
Now let's take point by point
and say, what, where else are we

354
00:20:49,962 --> 00:20:51,402
where are the points of conflict?

355
00:20:51,512 --> 00:20:52,432
Where aren't they?

356
00:20:53,102 --> 00:20:59,632
But by avoiding looking and trying to
challenge those deep beliefs and really

357
00:20:59,632 --> 00:21:03,582
just coming at it from whatever the
situation is from a different direction

358
00:21:04,142 --> 00:21:09,872
and finding something that is strong
as strong or a stronger than what's

359
00:21:09,872 --> 00:21:15,982
standing in the way, then we allow people
to tell themselves a different story.

360
00:21:17,032 --> 00:21:21,822
In their head or one that now
has a possibility of success,

361
00:21:21,992 --> 00:21:23,622
whereas the current one doesn't.

362
00:21:23,992 --> 00:21:28,792
And when somebody wants the outcome
enough, they will, at least at that point,

363
00:21:28,902 --> 00:21:34,472
be willing to try because they'll agree
in principle now that it's possible.

364
00:21:35,022 --> 00:21:35,802
And.

365
00:21:36,652 --> 00:21:39,222
For a lot of us and with a lot of
change that we're trying to do in

366
00:21:39,222 --> 00:21:44,792
organizations, like that's the first
barrier that we run up against, which

367
00:21:44,792 --> 00:21:49,662
is people reject it at a hand before
even because there's just dismissed.

368
00:21:49,662 --> 00:21:50,592
It is not possible.

369
00:21:50,902 --> 00:21:56,082
And this is where I, I, one of the many
things I hope that people pull from the

370
00:21:56,082 --> 00:22:04,392
book is just this idea of that little tiny
yes, that comes saying, is it possible?

371
00:22:05,027 --> 00:22:10,417
Do you agree in principle that this would
work, that this is, that this makes sense?

372
00:22:10,747 --> 00:22:13,607
Again, not based on data and evidence.

373
00:22:13,757 --> 00:22:14,617
Those are important.

374
00:22:14,797 --> 00:22:15,717
They come later.

375
00:22:16,067 --> 00:22:21,597
But intuitively, based on what you
recognize as true become something

376
00:22:21,607 --> 00:22:26,277
that will shift what you how
you think about the world or how

377
00:22:26,277 --> 00:22:28,557
you think about the situation or
how you think about this change.

378
00:22:28,897 --> 00:22:33,387
And I think that's really where the key
is so that it comes it flips from the

379
00:22:33,387 --> 00:22:38,947
deepest beliefs are the hardest to shift
as being a problem to the deepest beliefs

380
00:22:38,947 --> 00:22:43,647
are the hardest to shift actually tell
you where to start to solve the problem.

381
00:22:44,407 --> 00:22:48,547
Start with by building on
those deep beliefs rather

382
00:22:48,547 --> 00:22:50,647
than trying to challenge them.

383
00:22:51,377 --> 00:22:55,157
Nola Simon: Yeah, no, I the question
comes up with my work is the whole return

384
00:22:55,157 --> 00:22:59,927
to office debate and everybody, like all
these CEOs trying to bring people back in

385
00:22:59,927 --> 00:23:02,317
because of collaboration and innovation.

386
00:23:02,827 --> 00:23:06,037
And, that the work is just
better in the office and people

387
00:23:06,037 --> 00:23:07,667
fundamentally don't believe them.

388
00:23:07,822 --> 00:23:10,412
Because for one, they've been
able to work well at home.

389
00:23:10,912 --> 00:23:15,262
Two, their role doesn't really
involve innovation or collaboration.

390
00:23:15,532 --> 00:23:20,402
And as we've tried in the past, they
haven't succeeded to actually influence

391
00:23:20,402 --> 00:23:21,972
that innovation and collaboration.

392
00:23:22,352 --> 00:23:27,772
And so fundamentally there's that
disagreement about those beliefs.

393
00:23:27,872 --> 00:23:28,412
Tamsen Webster: Yes.

394
00:23:28,442 --> 00:23:30,157
And I would venture to say.

395
00:23:31,887 --> 00:23:32,677
That

396
00:23:37,447 --> 00:23:42,577
in some of those cases where the
leadership is bringing people back,

397
00:23:43,757 --> 00:23:47,667
they don't actually believe that
it they don't believe it either.

398
00:23:48,247 --> 00:23:49,907
And that actually isn't the reason.

399
00:23:50,767 --> 00:23:51,457
Bringing them back.

400
00:23:51,817 --> 00:23:56,337
And so the thing is that, particularly,
I think people's intuitive BS

401
00:23:56,357 --> 00:23:58,517
meter has always been very good.

402
00:23:58,807 --> 00:24:06,977
But employees to their employers is super
good because they have a lot of history

403
00:24:07,047 --> 00:24:09,127
with the behavior of the organization.

404
00:24:09,487 --> 00:24:10,687
And and guess what?

405
00:24:11,177 --> 00:24:19,022
We are, as humans, we are
actually Nonverbal first, right?

406
00:24:19,022 --> 00:24:29,142
Like that and we will trust what we
experience with all of ourselves far

407
00:24:29,692 --> 00:24:32,632
more than any words we ever attach to it.

408
00:24:33,332 --> 00:24:37,722
And this is where, again, as part
of the motivation of this book,

409
00:24:37,722 --> 00:24:42,482
which is just saying, listen, if
you can't actually make a, I know

410
00:24:42,482 --> 00:24:43,822
this is going to sound super direct.

411
00:24:44,967 --> 00:24:45,687
rational.

412
00:24:45,747 --> 00:24:47,287
I don't get to the reason why it's not.

413
00:24:47,297 --> 00:24:52,487
But if you can't make both a
valid and sound argument that

414
00:24:52,777 --> 00:24:55,987
your audience agrees is valid and
sound, and what I mean by valid and

415
00:24:55,987 --> 00:24:58,137
sound is it is a logical argument.

416
00:24:58,177 --> 00:25:02,747
Like it's complete, meaning this plus
this equals this and they agree with you.

417
00:25:03,737 --> 00:25:08,587
And sound, meaning the premises upon
which you are, like, the thing where

418
00:25:08,587 --> 00:25:12,067
you're saying, this is true, and this
is true, therefore, if they don't agree

419
00:25:12,067 --> 00:25:14,977
with one of those two things, then
the argument is dead in the water.

420
00:25:16,127 --> 00:25:17,377
And I know you're right.

421
00:25:17,377 --> 00:25:22,387
Because I've seen and I know you're right
because I've seen it as well that people

422
00:25:22,387 --> 00:25:26,187
don't believe that they're more creative
or innovative when they're all together.

423
00:25:26,767 --> 00:25:29,587
I also know that the studies say that.

424
00:25:30,322 --> 00:25:33,522
They are wrong that when people
are together, they actually are.

425
00:25:33,562 --> 00:25:35,132
And then you're going to say yes.

426
00:25:35,132 --> 00:25:38,002
And some of those studies came
from places like Microsoft.

427
00:25:38,002 --> 00:25:39,532
Of course, it's self serving again.

428
00:25:39,532 --> 00:25:42,282
Everybody's we can get the
numbers to say whatever we want.

429
00:25:42,762 --> 00:25:47,312
But here's what I would say
that even people who are

430
00:25:49,962 --> 00:25:52,492
reluctant to come back to the office.

431
00:25:53,017 --> 00:25:54,257
All the time, regardless.

432
00:25:54,577 --> 00:25:58,537
You know what I see, and you probably see
it, too, because I go into organizations

433
00:25:58,697 --> 00:26:02,747
to speak often at these occasions when
they have brought everyone together

434
00:26:02,977 --> 00:26:10,447
when they've been remote is that magic
happens, particularly in the non formal

435
00:26:10,807 --> 00:26:15,957
situations when you bring people together
when there's lunches together when they

436
00:26:15,957 --> 00:26:21,667
all go out to karaoke together and those
kinds of things and What I, where I

437
00:26:21,697 --> 00:26:25,887
think these back to work and I get not
an expert in all of this like you are,

438
00:26:25,887 --> 00:26:33,317
but where I suspect a lot of this breaks
down is that if the leadership actually

439
00:26:33,377 --> 00:26:36,047
articulated their own case to themselves,

440
00:26:39,177 --> 00:26:42,307
they actually wouldn't be able to make
an argument that actually because if

441
00:26:42,307 --> 00:26:45,072
they took off, one of the things I
talk about in the introduction to the

442
00:26:45,072 --> 00:26:50,092
book is what I call the persuaders
paradox, meaning we get so convinced

443
00:26:50,092 --> 00:26:53,377
of our own idea Or so charged with.

444
00:26:53,387 --> 00:26:56,597
We have to make this thing happen
that I have to convince people that

445
00:26:56,637 --> 00:27:03,157
we often will engage in a persuasion
techniques and attempts that if we were

446
00:27:03,157 --> 00:27:06,937
to take that hat off for a moment, we
would never tolerate for ourselves.

447
00:27:07,307 --> 00:27:08,197
Yeah, and.

448
00:27:10,117 --> 00:27:12,797
It's one of those things where,
you know, cause I see it a lot.

449
00:27:12,797 --> 00:27:15,057
It's the role I often
play in organizations.

450
00:27:15,067 --> 00:27:19,537
So thank you, brave clients where,
they'll say we believe that it's, it's

451
00:27:19,537 --> 00:27:20,817
going to be better for collaboration.

452
00:27:20,817 --> 00:27:21,307
Innovation.

453
00:27:21,307 --> 00:27:25,787
I'm like, and I would say, do you
believe you are more collaborative and

454
00:27:25,817 --> 00:27:28,987
innovative are equally collaborative,
innovative working remote.

455
00:27:29,397 --> 00:27:33,407
And I think a fair portion of those
people would be like yeah, I am, but.

456
00:27:33,772 --> 00:27:34,492
They aren't.

457
00:27:34,832 --> 00:27:35,042
Right?

458
00:27:35,122 --> 00:27:37,502
And it's this kind of perspective.

459
00:27:37,512 --> 00:27:40,952
So anyway, I think a lot of it
comes down to really thinking about

460
00:27:42,722 --> 00:27:47,792
what would be an argument that
The employees would agree is true.

461
00:27:48,412 --> 00:27:52,872
What would be the premises that the
employees would agree would make sense.

462
00:27:52,892 --> 00:27:59,972
And I think one of the one of the
avenues for that is recalling a recalling

463
00:27:59,972 --> 00:28:03,712
those experiences where there has been
something magical about getting people

464
00:28:03,722 --> 00:28:09,232
physically together and then be making
sure that your policies procedures

465
00:28:09,232 --> 00:28:11,062
that are in fact what's happening.

466
00:28:11,062 --> 00:28:14,512
The way that I've come to define
something that someone can't unhear

467
00:28:15,352 --> 00:28:23,132
is that it is a recognizable truth
that creates, crystallizes, or

468
00:28:23,132 --> 00:28:25,742
corrupts how they see the world.

469
00:28:27,172 --> 00:28:33,522
And the issue is when you're trying to
get someone to change, And they and the

470
00:28:33,542 --> 00:28:40,492
whatever you're presenting to them does
not do one of those four things, right?

471
00:28:40,492 --> 00:28:41,932
It's not a recognizable truth.

472
00:28:41,942 --> 00:28:46,412
They don't see it in play or
it doesn't do one of those and

473
00:28:46,442 --> 00:28:47,442
then it's not going to work.

474
00:28:47,702 --> 00:28:52,042
So when it comes to back to office
again, it's like, where do people agree?

475
00:28:52,182 --> 00:28:53,302
Can we start there?

476
00:28:53,752 --> 00:28:54,232
And.

477
00:28:54,527 --> 00:28:55,997
Again, I think the path is like there.

478
00:28:56,007 --> 00:28:59,087
There are these magical moments
where when people are physically

479
00:28:59,087 --> 00:29:00,687
together, other stuff happens.

480
00:29:00,707 --> 00:29:03,137
It may not be collaboration
and innovation.

481
00:29:03,137 --> 00:29:07,247
It may be something else that
enables more of that to happen later.

482
00:29:07,627 --> 00:29:12,617
But then the second step is critical
on the part of the organization, which

483
00:29:12,617 --> 00:29:18,257
is to set up the situations where those
things are actually going to happen.

484
00:29:18,577 --> 00:29:21,687
Because the vast majority of
people I talk to who have been at.

485
00:29:22,277 --> 00:29:26,947
In their terms, forced back to work part
of the reason why they're so frustrated

486
00:29:26,947 --> 00:29:32,577
by it is because they're sitting
physically at work in online meetings.

487
00:29:33,217 --> 00:29:37,947
Yes, I survived a return
to office mandate in 2013.

488
00:29:37,957 --> 00:29:42,297
So long before, online meetings
were really regular, I think.

489
00:29:42,677 --> 00:29:46,097
And part of it was we were brought
back because the infrastructure didn't

490
00:29:46,797 --> 00:29:50,097
necessarily support everything that we
were trying to do at that particular time.

491
00:29:51,812 --> 00:29:55,892
And I had driven a lot of it and I knew
it was completely possible to do it.

492
00:29:55,892 --> 00:29:59,462
They just needed to work together and
they needed to get their act together.

493
00:29:59,822 --> 00:30:04,102
So I had made specific recommendations,
but the way that I coped with that

494
00:30:04,152 --> 00:30:10,372
was actually flipping it and basically
saying that I can make this work for me

495
00:30:10,852 --> 00:30:16,272
because this is what I need to do so that
when we bring it back, it'll work well.

496
00:30:16,597 --> 00:30:20,587
So I flipped it to be like I
could totally work from home.

497
00:30:20,897 --> 00:30:22,047
I could make this work.

498
00:30:22,397 --> 00:30:23,897
But what do I have to do?

499
00:30:23,907 --> 00:30:28,007
How can I help so that everybody
else can get to where I am.

500
00:30:28,397 --> 00:30:31,887
So I went in and I started training
people how to use webinar software.

501
00:30:32,227 --> 00:30:35,857
I built out operating protocols
and I, I worked with like the tech

502
00:30:35,887 --> 00:30:37,397
team and I did all of that work.

503
00:30:37,397 --> 00:30:41,147
Like I never really stopped working on
it, even though it was never my job.

504
00:30:41,647 --> 00:30:46,267
And so assuming that identity and
flipping that helped me deal with the

505
00:30:46,267 --> 00:30:49,737
emotional impacts of it, even though,
it was still aggravating, but it's

506
00:30:49,737 --> 00:30:51,697
at least I could flip my perspective.

507
00:30:51,697 --> 00:30:54,817
And I became the person who
is going to make it work.

508
00:30:54,817 --> 00:30:56,787
He was invested and
committed for the longterm.

509
00:30:58,022 --> 00:31:01,322
Yeah, that, that's the,

510
00:31:04,342 --> 00:31:12,437
the risk in this approach is that you
discover that As most marketers know

511
00:31:12,447 --> 00:31:15,977
about marketing messaging, and this
is where a lot of this started for me,

512
00:31:15,987 --> 00:31:17,377
cause that's where my career started.

513
00:31:17,717 --> 00:31:23,247
Marketers know that no amount of great
marketing will fix a product problem.

514
00:31:23,437 --> 00:31:26,817
It's another version of, nothing killed
a bad product, like good advertising.

515
00:31:27,977 --> 00:31:30,092
There is no amount of messaging.

516
00:31:30,392 --> 00:31:34,882
that will make a change
that is not fundamentally in

517
00:31:34,882 --> 00:31:38,442
someone's favor, in their favor.

518
00:31:39,342 --> 00:31:43,262
And I would argue that anything where
you're trying to get them to believe

519
00:31:43,262 --> 00:31:48,067
that it's in their favor is Out of
line with my own personal ethics.

520
00:31:48,417 --> 00:31:53,237
People's own mileage may
vary, but the thing is that

521
00:31:53,277 --> 00:31:54,657
eventually they'll figure it out.

522
00:31:54,707 --> 00:31:56,517
Let's we can get all Shakespearean on it.

523
00:31:56,527 --> 00:32:01,667
Like the truth will out again,
over time, people will see whether

524
00:32:01,687 --> 00:32:05,887
there's a gap between what they
were told and what they experience.

525
00:32:06,267 --> 00:32:10,127
And they are always going to
trust their own experience more.

526
00:32:10,637 --> 00:32:19,077
And so when You know, in those situations
where it really isn't going to work

527
00:32:19,077 --> 00:32:25,407
out for some people on the team,
that's where, this underneath a lot

528
00:32:25,407 --> 00:32:30,177
of, there's a, there is a realization
that may come to some readers of this

529
00:32:30,177 --> 00:32:34,182
book, which is that what this is.

530
00:32:34,182 --> 00:32:38,372
And what that shift in approach does
is that it shifts the risk of the

531
00:32:38,372 --> 00:32:42,962
change onto the person asking for
it or onto the people asking for it.

532
00:32:43,662 --> 00:32:47,622
And that's again my bias.

533
00:32:47,622 --> 00:32:50,122
I've got a lot of reasons for
why I think that's appropriate,

534
00:32:50,122 --> 00:32:52,052
but it like get intuitively.

535
00:32:52,442 --> 00:32:56,412
This is definitely for a book for
people who would agree that is true,

536
00:32:56,432 --> 00:32:58,962
that if I am asking you to change.

537
00:32:59,502 --> 00:32:59,632
The.

538
00:33:01,692 --> 00:33:05,572
If it's a worthwhile change, I should
believe enough in that change to

539
00:33:05,612 --> 00:33:12,862
assume the risks of giving you my
honest, fully transparent reasoning

540
00:33:12,862 --> 00:33:17,742
for it and acknowledge and take
the risk that you may not agree.

541
00:33:18,632 --> 00:33:19,112
Oh, yeah.

542
00:33:19,182 --> 00:33:22,162
Yeah, we had that once
with a software program.

543
00:33:22,162 --> 00:33:22,932
They were trying to bring in.

544
00:33:22,942 --> 00:33:25,692
They did spend 2 million
dollars on like a.

545
00:33:25,922 --> 00:33:28,712
Basically, like a custom CRM
before Salesforce was a thing.

546
00:33:29,132 --> 00:33:31,922
And then they're like we spent
2, 000, 2 million on this.

547
00:33:31,922 --> 00:33:32,832
We need you to use it.

548
00:33:32,842 --> 00:33:34,322
And I'm like, okay, but
you're making my life.

549
00:33:34,757 --> 00:33:35,547
More difficult.

550
00:33:35,697 --> 00:33:36,637
Why would I use it?

551
00:33:36,637 --> 00:33:39,607
Because it doesn't solve
any problem that I have.

552
00:33:40,167 --> 00:33:42,227
You're just adding to my day.

553
00:33:42,497 --> 00:33:46,217
And then eventually they started
adding in things that were useful.

554
00:33:46,687 --> 00:33:49,657
So then it's okay I can
see the use case for that.

555
00:33:49,727 --> 00:33:51,417
That's making my day easier.

556
00:33:52,247 --> 00:33:52,967
I'll use it.

557
00:33:53,277 --> 00:33:56,317
I don't really care about your
2 million that you spent on it.

558
00:33:56,707 --> 00:33:58,467
That's poor planning on your part.

559
00:33:59,217 --> 00:33:59,527
Yes.

560
00:33:59,597 --> 00:34:01,277
If you make my day easier.

561
00:34:01,277 --> 00:34:01,332
Okay.

562
00:34:01,942 --> 00:34:02,772
I'll support you.

563
00:34:04,512 --> 00:34:08,602
And that is where, and that's, for
me, that's always the place to start

564
00:34:08,652 --> 00:34:12,872
a message of change is what, in
what direction are the people you're

565
00:34:12,872 --> 00:34:16,012
talking to already traveling, right?

566
00:34:16,292 --> 00:34:21,322
And one thing that you can rely
on is that your team always

567
00:34:21,322 --> 00:34:22,682
wants their day to be easier.

568
00:34:23,002 --> 00:34:26,502
They always want there
to be less annoyances.

569
00:34:26,502 --> 00:34:32,342
They always want to be, they always want
more time to do the things that they love.

570
00:34:32,682 --> 00:34:37,332
Right now in some companies that culture
is do more of the work and other for

571
00:34:37,332 --> 00:34:40,782
other people and maybe even within that
company that for other people that's

572
00:34:40,942 --> 00:34:45,362
spending more time with friends, family,
loved ones, crossword puzzles, dogs.

573
00:34:45,402 --> 00:34:46,732
I don't know what that is.

574
00:34:48,657 --> 00:34:52,117
This comes back to that fifth principle
of the deepest beliefs are the hardest

575
00:34:52,117 --> 00:34:57,407
to shift because part of the belief
is that I want the thing right?

576
00:34:57,697 --> 00:35:01,767
And if I'm already organized and wired
in the direction of, I'm going to

577
00:35:01,767 --> 00:35:07,757
pursue and be open to anything that
legitimately will make my life easier,

578
00:35:08,517 --> 00:35:10,497
then start the message of change there.

579
00:35:11,192 --> 00:35:14,632
Pretty much one thing that's usually not
going to fly is that it's for the good

580
00:35:14,632 --> 00:35:21,822
of the company, that may fly with your C
suite, but it's still conditional on as

581
00:35:21,832 --> 00:35:25,812
long as it doesn't make my job harder.

582
00:35:25,912 --> 00:35:28,912
And so starting from
there is the first thing.

583
00:35:29,102 --> 00:35:35,542
And then again, so often what we do
when we, All forms of messaging, but

584
00:35:35,542 --> 00:35:39,662
particularly around messaging that's
meant to drive a shift in thinking or

585
00:35:39,662 --> 00:35:46,892
behavior or just create an action is that
we think that, at least we've learned

586
00:35:46,892 --> 00:35:51,062
that just telling people what to do
doesn't work or doesn't work long term

587
00:35:51,072 --> 00:35:54,122
or doesn't work and build the kind of
relationships and culture that you want.

588
00:35:54,662 --> 00:35:58,022
So we've we've, Thanks in no
small part to Simon Sinek.

589
00:35:58,052 --> 00:35:59,172
We've got, we've got this.

590
00:35:59,242 --> 00:36:01,182
We've understood now
that we, yeah, exactly.

591
00:36:01,372 --> 00:36:04,302
We have to at least explain
why are we doing this thing?

592
00:36:04,512 --> 00:36:07,602
We're doing this thing because
now I would say that when

593
00:36:07,602 --> 00:36:09,182
you're trying to drive action.

594
00:36:09,672 --> 00:36:15,132
That we use the why that doesn't
resonate for people a lot of times,

595
00:36:15,152 --> 00:36:18,962
or it does, but it's a distant,
it's seven rooms over, right?

596
00:36:18,962 --> 00:36:22,852
Whereas if there was something closer,
like for you to say that to, for them

597
00:36:22,852 --> 00:36:24,202
to say we invested a lot of money.

598
00:36:24,202 --> 00:36:26,612
You're like, that doesn't
ring my bell at all.

599
00:36:26,982 --> 00:36:33,402
But if it were legitimately, even if it
were initially positioned as this is going

600
00:36:33,492 --> 00:36:37,132
to make your life easier, what we miss.

601
00:36:37,187 --> 00:36:43,077
And what that means is that is
starting with not just the why behind

602
00:36:43,077 --> 00:36:48,287
what the change is, but the why, but
behind what, how the change works.

603
00:36:48,297 --> 00:36:53,997
In other words, why will this change
actually accomplish this thing?

604
00:36:54,707 --> 00:36:59,572
And that's the one we skip, and that's
the one where we, More often than not

605
00:36:59,612 --> 00:37:04,702
end up with things that we trying to
argue based on things we wish were true,

606
00:37:04,812 --> 00:37:08,962
like the collaboration and innovation,
but not things again, something that

607
00:37:08,962 --> 00:37:14,132
someone can't unhear is a recognizable
truth doesn't mean it actually is, but

608
00:37:14,132 --> 00:37:15,802
they have to recognize it as truth.

609
00:37:15,802 --> 00:37:19,382
And this is where we resolve this
tension between someone going,

610
00:37:19,672 --> 00:37:21,062
this is a very logical approach.

611
00:37:21,472 --> 00:37:24,922
It's logic that uses beliefs in its input.

612
00:37:25,762 --> 00:37:28,492
That's not rational, totally not.

613
00:37:28,982 --> 00:37:31,742
So this is where we
find that middle ground.

614
00:37:31,772 --> 00:37:38,122
But it starts with saying, if you
want people to go along, it's not

615
00:37:38,142 --> 00:37:40,962
their job to move in a new direction.

616
00:37:41,082 --> 00:37:46,482
It's your job to show how the thing
that you're asking them to do doesn't

617
00:37:46,492 --> 00:37:48,082
take them off the path that they're on.

618
00:37:48,462 --> 00:37:53,092
And in fact, may actually
accelerate them towards whatever

619
00:37:53,092 --> 00:37:54,132
it is that they're pursuing.

620
00:37:54,392 --> 00:37:55,382
But it's your job.

621
00:37:55,382 --> 00:38:02,667
It's your team's job as a leader, as
a colleague to, to If you don't know

622
00:38:02,667 --> 00:38:07,587
specifically what those things are to just
to do the little bit of human work that

623
00:38:07,587 --> 00:38:12,457
would say what would a smart, capable,
good person, which all of your team is,

624
00:38:12,457 --> 00:38:19,257
by the way, what would they most likely
care about the most, what would be the

625
00:38:19,267 --> 00:38:24,297
most, what would be the thing that they're
most, caring about again, not, and it

626
00:38:24,297 --> 00:38:27,707
isn't by the way, long term avoiding pain.

627
00:38:27,987 --> 00:38:28,507
It's.

628
00:38:29,117 --> 00:38:32,247
Yes, they want to avoid pain in the
short term, but they also want, there's

629
00:38:32,247 --> 00:38:33,777
something else that they're looking for.

630
00:38:33,987 --> 00:38:39,027
So there's a lot to it, but ultimately
it is, does come down to very simple

631
00:38:39,027 --> 00:38:40,947
principles, which is why I wrote the book.

632
00:38:42,037 --> 00:38:46,297
I like to the smart, capable,
good approach because it helps

633
00:38:46,327 --> 00:38:48,297
people approach it with empathy.

634
00:38:48,582 --> 00:38:51,652
Right, and put themselves in
somebody else's shoes, I find.

635
00:38:51,662 --> 00:38:55,532
So if you assume that everybody is
smart, capable and good, which the

636
00:38:55,532 --> 00:38:59,832
majority of people want to be, I maybe
Elon Musk claims to be an evil genius.

637
00:38:59,832 --> 00:39:02,032
I'm not sure, but if everybody wants.

638
00:39:02,032 --> 00:39:07,952
Yeah, from that perspective, then you have
to consider that, there's a reason that's

639
00:39:07,952 --> 00:39:12,412
driving them that it makes you start
that curiosity thread, which I think is.

640
00:39:13,072 --> 00:39:13,792
It's helpful.

641
00:39:14,442 --> 00:39:14,942
That's right.

642
00:39:15,372 --> 00:39:17,642
So yeah, I love this topic.

643
00:39:17,652 --> 00:39:18,512
It's a couple things.

644
00:39:18,512 --> 00:39:23,422
One is, again, most of the things that
I've put in here come from trial and

645
00:39:23,432 --> 00:39:30,392
error experience of what business leaders
and humans do and don't talk, right?

646
00:39:30,632 --> 00:39:31,342
And.

647
00:39:31,902 --> 00:39:38,342
And one of those, particularly in
business, it can be for not for all people

648
00:39:38,342 --> 00:39:39,592
in business and not for all leaders.

649
00:39:39,592 --> 00:39:45,842
But the empathy is can for certain
people feel quite squishy on.

650
00:39:45,882 --> 00:39:50,132
And that's because oftentimes that
we've conflated that there's only one

651
00:39:50,132 --> 00:39:54,132
kind of empathy when, in fact, there's
actually multiple kinds of empathy and

652
00:39:54,707 --> 00:39:59,567
Most of the time what we're, what we
think we mean with empathy is emotional

653
00:39:59,577 --> 00:40:02,657
empathy, which is understanding
what somebody else is feeling.

654
00:40:03,267 --> 00:40:09,027
And that feels very touchy feely
to particularly, task oriented

655
00:40:09,027 --> 00:40:10,087
leaders and things like that.

656
00:40:10,087 --> 00:40:14,557
Not everybody's wired towards
relationships and that's okay by the way.

657
00:40:16,247 --> 00:40:20,327
But one thing that can help to
understand is Hey you don't.

658
00:40:20,587 --> 00:40:22,697
Control how somebody
feels about something.

659
00:40:22,827 --> 00:40:23,817
You do not.

660
00:40:24,297 --> 00:40:25,347
And they do.

661
00:40:25,617 --> 00:40:27,772
And that's On that.

662
00:40:27,842 --> 00:40:31,702
And so not only does it feel
uncomfortable for certain people

663
00:40:31,702 --> 00:40:33,252
because of how they're wired.

664
00:40:33,322 --> 00:40:38,152
I don't feel comfortable on this
feeling thing on another level.

665
00:40:39,022 --> 00:40:41,952
Other people may resist it because
they're like, I don't feel comfortable.

666
00:40:42,592 --> 00:40:45,162
I don't directly control
how they feel anyway.

667
00:40:45,162 --> 00:40:48,252
So again, what's for some folks that
maybe they're efficiency oriented.

668
00:40:48,362 --> 00:40:53,362
Like I don't, even if I wanted to know
or could know, I can't, there's, it's

669
00:40:53,372 --> 00:40:55,682
not a thing I can directly affect.

670
00:40:56,342 --> 00:40:59,352
And there's lots of people who
actually don't really understand

671
00:40:59,352 --> 00:41:00,522
what they're feeling either.

672
00:41:00,962 --> 00:41:04,202
Like admitting their own
emotions to themselves.

673
00:41:04,252 --> 00:41:05,102
So it's complex.

674
00:41:05,742 --> 00:41:09,832
And this is where understanding that
there's another avenue towards empathy

675
00:41:09,842 --> 00:41:13,952
that can be really important and that's
cognitive empathy, which is understanding

676
00:41:13,952 --> 00:41:15,572
what somebody else is thinking.

677
00:41:16,242 --> 00:41:20,712
And there's a huge amount of support
for the fact that many of our feelings

678
00:41:21,322 --> 00:41:24,122
are directly tied to our thoughts.

679
00:41:24,522 --> 00:41:28,572
And so if we can back up and
go, whoo, this person is super

680
00:41:28,572 --> 00:41:32,702
passionate about this, or, ooh, this
person's really angry about this.

681
00:41:33,162 --> 00:41:34,402
And instead of going.

682
00:41:34,967 --> 00:41:38,807
I don't understand the feeling, which
you may not, you're probably not going

683
00:41:38,807 --> 00:41:43,707
to understand it unless you start
to say what must they be thinking?

684
00:41:43,717 --> 00:41:49,227
Or what could they be thinking that would
produce that anger would produce that

685
00:41:49,237 --> 00:41:51,837
doubt that would produce that resistance?

686
00:41:52,417 --> 00:41:52,937
And.

687
00:41:53,482 --> 00:41:54,232
You're right.

688
00:41:54,332 --> 00:41:58,742
The smart, capable, good thing is
that most people want to be it.

689
00:41:59,172 --> 00:42:02,322
And I chose the phrasing in the
book quite consciously that most

690
00:42:02,322 --> 00:42:04,582
people want to be seen that way.

691
00:42:05,052 --> 00:42:08,592
Because I've spent enough years in
therapy to know that not everybody's

692
00:42:08,592 --> 00:42:11,262
convinced all the time that they
are smart, capable, or good.

693
00:42:12,382 --> 00:42:13,212
Most of us.

694
00:42:13,792 --> 00:42:17,652
The majority of us, I would say
even the Elon Musks of the world

695
00:42:18,142 --> 00:42:22,112
want to be seen as smart, capable
and good to their in group, right?

696
00:42:22,162 --> 00:42:23,622
Or to other people.

697
00:42:23,952 --> 00:42:28,962
And so they're very happy to be seen as
not good by a huge group of other people

698
00:42:28,992 --> 00:42:35,212
as long as they feel validated by the
people whose opinion they want or need.

699
00:42:35,832 --> 00:42:38,742
And so this is where.

700
00:42:39,582 --> 00:42:44,322
Again, putting that lens on just
saying again, you don't even have to

701
00:42:44,322 --> 00:42:48,452
believe I suggest that you do, though,
because still going to leak out.

702
00:42:48,452 --> 00:42:51,732
If you don't have to, though, but
at least take that step of saying,

703
00:42:52,562 --> 00:42:54,682
okay, let's just thought exercise.

704
00:42:54,732 --> 00:42:55,882
If this person.

705
00:42:56,417 --> 00:42:59,237
We're actually currently
smart, capable and good.

706
00:42:59,607 --> 00:43:01,417
Why would this make sense?

707
00:43:02,367 --> 00:43:06,317
Because people do follow
their own internal logic.

708
00:43:06,327 --> 00:43:10,027
It may not be logical to
you, but it is to them.

709
00:43:10,367 --> 00:43:16,437
We do not, as humans, operate outside
of internal logic for very long.

710
00:43:16,577 --> 00:43:17,197
We don't.

711
00:43:17,407 --> 00:43:20,047
We are very internally consistent people.

712
00:43:20,937 --> 00:43:23,547
Even if we're consistently
inconsistent, right?

713
00:43:23,547 --> 00:43:26,717
It's like Dan Ariely's like
predictably irrational.

714
00:43:27,637 --> 00:43:31,967
We in fact are predictably irrational, but
we're irrational in very predictable ways.

715
00:43:32,037 --> 00:43:35,297
We are logical and very illogical ways.

716
00:43:35,747 --> 00:43:37,557
And that's what we can count on.

717
00:43:37,557 --> 00:43:41,682
So if you can marry those two things
together, that people will operate.

718
00:43:41,922 --> 00:43:43,812
Long term on their own internal logic.

719
00:43:43,812 --> 00:43:49,282
So there is one there's some kind of
mental model or collection of models and

720
00:43:49,282 --> 00:43:51,952
beliefs and frameworks and worldview.

721
00:43:52,332 --> 00:43:56,542
Absolutely, which I love, by the way,
favorite topic and that people want

722
00:43:56,542 --> 00:43:58,232
to be seen as smart, capable and good.

723
00:43:58,242 --> 00:44:01,112
Then you can start to
solve for the worldview.

724
00:44:01,772 --> 00:44:06,112
You can say, I can see this reaction,
if I assume they're smart, capable, and

725
00:44:06,112 --> 00:44:11,572
good, given what I know of the world,
and of people, and even this person.

726
00:44:11,822 --> 00:44:13,072
What would have produced that?

727
00:44:13,322 --> 00:44:15,712
And if you can't figure it out guess what?

728
00:44:15,752 --> 00:44:19,642
It is a beautiful point, to
your point, Nola, of becoming

729
00:44:19,662 --> 00:44:21,662
curious, and asking them.

730
00:44:22,682 --> 00:44:24,352
What makes you say that?

731
00:44:24,452 --> 00:44:26,912
What is, what is it that you are?

732
00:44:27,412 --> 00:44:29,912
That are, what is it
that you are angry about?

733
00:44:29,952 --> 00:44:32,892
Again, not why that can be
a very triggering question.

734
00:44:32,892 --> 00:44:33,972
Like, why are you so angry?

735
00:44:33,972 --> 00:44:34,892
It's just what is it?

736
00:44:34,892 --> 00:44:39,972
Because that can start to really
focus the question on, you could, if

737
00:44:39,982 --> 00:44:43,342
someone said that to you with your
resistance to coming back to work or

738
00:44:43,342 --> 00:44:47,282
that to that implementation of that
software system what is it about this?

739
00:44:47,302 --> 00:44:49,502
That is, is so frustrating to you.

740
00:44:49,502 --> 00:44:52,102
You're like, it makes my job harder.

741
00:44:54,452 --> 00:44:57,332
It does again, like we operate.

742
00:44:57,967 --> 00:45:00,787
From these worldviews with
the assumption that people see

743
00:45:00,787 --> 00:45:01,957
the world the same way we do.

744
00:45:02,247 --> 00:45:07,717
And if we stop and for just even a split
second and go of course, not everybody

745
00:45:07,717 --> 00:45:14,127
does or can, but our brain saves brain
cells by assuming that everybody does.

746
00:45:14,757 --> 00:45:20,607
And so sometimes we have to create
those moments either in conversation

747
00:45:20,617 --> 00:45:30,257
or by presenting this case for change
that again, people can recognize.

748
00:45:31,287 --> 00:45:35,047
In that moment, because it doesn't
take long to really say because I

749
00:45:35,047 --> 00:45:36,967
believe this is true, and this is true.

750
00:45:37,527 --> 00:45:40,577
That's why I believe this is the
approach that's going to produce this

751
00:45:40,577 --> 00:45:47,077
outcome that doesn't take much to help
people identify where the friction

752
00:45:47,077 --> 00:45:52,387
is, where the alignment is, where
there's opportunity and where there is.

753
00:45:53,367 --> 00:45:57,167
And where there isn't and regardless,
what I have seen is that being able

754
00:45:57,167 --> 00:46:02,577
to do that and have that discussion
allows people to civilly agree to

755
00:46:02,577 --> 00:46:07,437
disagree and say, oh, I understand.

756
00:46:07,987 --> 00:46:11,147
I just don't agree and then
it's up to the leadership.

757
00:46:11,147 --> 00:46:13,737
It's up to you as an individual
working with that leadership

758
00:46:13,967 --> 00:46:15,497
to decide what that actually.

759
00:46:15,897 --> 00:46:16,657
Means for you.

760
00:46:16,817 --> 00:46:20,557
And like you did, you said how can I
reframe it so that I can do something

761
00:46:20,557 --> 00:46:22,267
with this and be helpful towards it?

762
00:46:22,887 --> 00:46:27,337
But that's how that response is
always gonna be personal to Yeah, and

763
00:46:27,337 --> 00:46:30,897
fundamentally, I think that's really
where the whole return to office thing

764
00:46:30,907 --> 00:46:33,947
breaks down is it's related to identity.

765
00:46:33,987 --> 00:46:37,027
So these leaders who want to
bring people back, that's how

766
00:46:37,027 --> 00:46:38,587
they've always been successful.

767
00:46:38,837 --> 00:46:42,147
If they tell the story of their
careers, it's told in person

768
00:46:42,147 --> 00:46:43,727
because that was their reality.

769
00:46:44,097 --> 00:46:47,757
You would think that they want to mentor
people, they want to train people,

770
00:46:47,757 --> 00:46:53,307
they, and to do that in the frame of
referenced in to their history, they

771
00:46:53,307 --> 00:46:56,697
can't do that if the people are at home.

772
00:46:57,197 --> 00:47:00,517
Like their reason for being successful
is fundamentally related to the

773
00:47:00,517 --> 00:47:03,877
fact that they were in person
seeing people in different contexts.

774
00:47:04,187 --> 00:47:09,567
And so they have to reframe their
whole entire understanding of their

775
00:47:09,567 --> 00:47:15,087
career success in a way that's really
uncomfortable for a lot of people.

776
00:47:16,527 --> 00:47:24,967
Yes, and that also means that in many
cases, it reveals to them in a way

777
00:47:24,967 --> 00:47:29,747
they may not want to face quickly
or ever how they were viewing the

778
00:47:29,757 --> 00:47:31,827
people who work with them, right?

779
00:47:31,857 --> 00:47:35,197
Meaning they were looking them as workers.

780
00:47:36,347 --> 00:47:42,787
Not as people because again, as a person
to put the persuaders paradox back in

781
00:47:42,787 --> 00:47:49,097
play as a person, they wouldn't want
to be seen as just a worker either.

782
00:47:49,097 --> 00:47:50,247
They would resist it.

783
00:47:50,637 --> 00:47:54,127
And so sometimes it's having that
perspective of just it's where

784
00:47:54,127 --> 00:47:57,277
that classic 90s 80s and 90s.

785
00:47:57,277 --> 00:47:58,487
It started in Toyota.

786
00:47:58,487 --> 00:47:59,617
The five wise.

787
00:48:00,682 --> 00:48:03,522
comes into play of just
keep, it isn't always five.

788
00:48:03,522 --> 00:48:08,262
Sometimes it's three, sometimes it's
seven, but keep going down until

789
00:48:08,962 --> 00:48:11,222
you, it's a, or even share Lockian.

790
00:48:11,232 --> 00:48:14,232
The only thing that's
left is what must be true.

791
00:48:14,612 --> 00:48:20,142
And sometimes that's uncomfortable and but
if you're really trying to get a change

792
00:48:20,142 --> 00:48:24,202
to be successful, that's the work, right?

793
00:48:24,242 --> 00:48:33,497
And sometimes the work is going to be
This realization that you are putting the

794
00:48:33,497 --> 00:48:39,057
needs of the company ahead of the needs
of your employees and that may go against

795
00:48:39,057 --> 00:48:42,997
what you have said Your values are right.

796
00:48:42,997 --> 00:48:45,547
And so that's where the
trust breaks down, right?

797
00:48:45,777 --> 00:48:49,907
Because it's the story
doesn't hang together, right?

798
00:48:49,947 --> 00:48:50,457
Exactly.

799
00:48:50,467 --> 00:48:51,357
It doesn't it.

800
00:48:51,417 --> 00:48:52,197
It doesn't.

801
00:48:52,447 --> 00:48:54,287
It is not recognizably true.

802
00:48:54,527 --> 00:48:59,977
So that's what you know, for me this idea
of these recognizable truths apply both

803
00:49:00,027 --> 00:49:06,417
to individual pieces and parts of this
story, but also to the story as a whole,

804
00:49:06,657 --> 00:49:11,357
because sometimes, we can hear something
that just completely, Like just shifts

805
00:49:11,367 --> 00:49:16,187
everything, and it just rewires the
rest of a story that's already in play.

806
00:49:16,217 --> 00:49:22,987
I would say we've seen that this week
in Kamala Harris's response on Call

807
00:49:22,987 --> 00:49:26,707
Her Daddy when she said there are many
women who do not aspire to be humble.

808
00:49:27,537 --> 00:49:31,837
And for many women, I'm not saying
all, for many women, that was

809
00:49:31,837 --> 00:49:33,517
one of those recognizable truths.

810
00:49:33,517 --> 00:49:35,667
All of a sudden they heard
the words and they're like.

811
00:49:36,312 --> 00:49:41,322
I recognize that as true and I
recognize that as true about me.

812
00:49:41,582 --> 00:49:46,682
And so what it did was it
crystallized for a group of people.

813
00:49:47,642 --> 00:49:49,832
This is why this something didn't work.

814
00:49:49,842 --> 00:49:55,222
This is why, some like something about
the story I'm being told about my

815
00:49:55,222 --> 00:49:59,282
role as a woman doesn't work because
I've just heard a recognizable truth.

816
00:49:59,952 --> 00:50:03,482
And then to your point, Nola,
sometimes it's the whole story, right?

817
00:50:03,522 --> 00:50:07,542
It's just it's, these
things don't track together.

818
00:50:07,592 --> 00:50:11,162
And that's, I, sorry to get all
Aristotelian on it, but it's it's not

819
00:50:11,162 --> 00:50:17,617
a, it's not a valid argument, meaning
A plus B does not equal C in this case.

820
00:50:17,617 --> 00:50:23,095
And And if that's verifiably true,
based on your audience's experience, if

821
00:50:23,095 --> 00:50:28,585
your audience cannot validate it based
on their own experience, first test.

822
00:50:28,585 --> 00:50:28,599
Test.

823
00:50:29,250 --> 00:50:29,890
Dead in the water.

824
00:50:30,150 --> 00:50:33,860
And so this is why so much of the
approach that I'm talking about in this

825
00:50:33,860 --> 00:50:41,650
book really relies on those underlying,
sometimes implicit, unspoken, in

826
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:47,840
practice principles that are guiding
what the leaders do and team members do

827
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:52,394
every day, because that is what we do.

828
00:50:52,825 --> 00:50:56,195
That is the first
validation of the change.

829
00:50:56,325 --> 00:50:59,995
The first yes, that always
has to pass is does it check?

830
00:51:00,385 --> 00:51:01,845
Does it check with my head?

831
00:51:01,855 --> 00:51:02,995
Does it make sense?

832
00:51:03,615 --> 00:51:05,425
And does it make sense?

833
00:51:05,445 --> 00:51:06,615
Does it feel right?

834
00:51:07,035 --> 00:51:10,714
And the ding, it has to be,
I don't hear an audible ding.

835
00:51:10,764 --> 00:51:16,704
When I hear a truth, I feel it like
in, in my chest, it's not audible.

836
00:51:16,704 --> 00:51:18,374
It's a feeling right.

837
00:51:18,764 --> 00:51:22,314
And that actually happened once where it
was something that somebody was dealing

838
00:51:22,314 --> 00:51:25,814
with an insurance claim and somebody told
me something that they shouldn't have told

839
00:51:25,814 --> 00:51:28,024
me and I'm like, Oh, this is the truth.

840
00:51:28,104 --> 00:51:29,154
This is what you're trying to do.

841
00:51:29,164 --> 00:51:33,354
And I got a 34, 000 settlement out of
them because I recognized their truth.

842
00:51:34,584 --> 00:51:40,554
Yes, we there's a lot as I'm, as
I am learning right now, cause

843
00:51:40,554 --> 00:51:42,424
I, I started amidst all of this.

844
00:51:42,425 --> 00:51:44,124
I started a doctorate program this summer.

845
00:51:44,454 --> 00:51:45,464
We have.

846
00:51:46,404 --> 00:51:52,314
I think overlooked in particularly Western
and Western culture and in business,

847
00:51:54,344 --> 00:51:56,514
the other forms of.

848
00:51:57,264 --> 00:52:02,694
Knowledge, wisdom and
learning that we have.

849
00:52:03,434 --> 00:52:10,834
And, it what is intriguing to me in this
environment of incredible complexity and

850
00:52:10,864 --> 00:52:16,939
incredible change is how important it is.

851
00:52:17,209 --> 00:52:18,869
To be able to

852
00:52:22,309 --> 00:52:27,489
not just articulate quickly why
something what something is, why is it

853
00:52:27,489 --> 00:52:31,509
important and what and be able to give
people that information that allows

854
00:52:31,519 --> 00:52:37,359
them to do that to do a very quick
check, but to be able to recognize.

855
00:52:38,604 --> 00:52:45,934
That actually nothing that happens up here
happens without the gut check happening

856
00:52:45,944 --> 00:52:55,634
first, and I don't care how B2B or how
engineering or tech or science focused,

857
00:52:56,134 --> 00:53:02,824
an organization is it's, it's proposal
review committee is or whatever that

858
00:53:02,834 --> 00:53:05,264
data, we're going to trust the data.

859
00:53:07,169 --> 00:53:12,169
That either aligns with what we've
seen and experienced ourselves, or in

860
00:53:12,169 --> 00:53:17,349
rare cases, we will trust it because
it either comes from a source that

861
00:53:17,349 --> 00:53:22,159
we really trust, or again, that it
finally unlocks, even in a way that

862
00:53:22,159 --> 00:53:24,729
we weren't expecting, something else.

863
00:53:25,709 --> 00:53:28,209
One of my best examples of that, and
I know we're running out of time,

864
00:53:28,209 --> 00:53:31,149
but one of my favorite examples
of that was with with Jay Baer.

865
00:53:31,159 --> 00:53:35,459
So Jay Baer is a customer service
and customer experience expert.

866
00:53:35,479 --> 00:53:39,709
And two books ago, three books ago, he
wrote a book called Hug Your Haters.

867
00:53:40,369 --> 00:53:44,319
And it started with, he started with,
by, he started it by doing research.

868
00:53:44,329 --> 00:53:48,849
So he started it by doing,
by gathering information on.

869
00:53:49,284 --> 00:53:53,324
Like, how often you need to respond
to the haters online and what the

870
00:53:53,324 --> 00:53:54,944
expectations were and all of that.

871
00:53:55,434 --> 00:54:00,784
And to Jay's eternal credit, his
original hypothesis about it, I don't

872
00:54:00,784 --> 00:54:02,474
even remember what it was disproved.

873
00:54:02,994 --> 00:54:08,384
And what he discovered in the data was
not that was that the haters were actually

874
00:54:08,674 --> 00:54:10,934
deeply passionate about the brand.

875
00:54:11,254 --> 00:54:15,104
And when they got angry, it's
because they cared so much.

876
00:54:15,614 --> 00:54:21,874
And so this is one of those places where,
when it suddenly, for him, what that

877
00:54:21,884 --> 00:54:25,544
created was, and I remember we worked
on the messaging around this, which was,

878
00:54:26,049 --> 00:54:29,639
That it wasn't that the haters weren't
the problem, ignoring them was the

879
00:54:29,639 --> 00:54:35,269
problem, because they were so passionate
about the brand, the company, etc.

880
00:54:35,769 --> 00:54:42,299
That hearing that disconfirming data is
what unlocked for him why haters could

881
00:54:42,309 --> 00:54:44,559
have, like, why they carried such power.

882
00:54:44,559 --> 00:54:49,369
It's because the people who I would
submit, it's because that passion.

883
00:54:49,704 --> 00:54:55,614
For the brand or for the way things should
be was so intense that people felt it

884
00:54:56,024 --> 00:55:00,094
even through, the austere online world.

885
00:55:00,934 --> 00:55:05,074
Yeah, I actually built my customer
service career around difficult

886
00:55:05,094 --> 00:55:08,424
callers and dealing with people that
other people couldn't deal with.

887
00:55:08,884 --> 00:55:09,254
And.

888
00:55:09,639 --> 00:55:14,319
That was how I was successful because
I listened to them, because honestly,

889
00:55:14,329 --> 00:55:18,049
the majority of the time is they had
a vision of what could be, and they

890
00:55:18,049 --> 00:55:21,619
were actually trying to help you get
there, if only you would pay attention.

891
00:55:22,159 --> 00:55:22,589
Yes.

892
00:55:22,849 --> 00:55:23,339
Yes.

893
00:55:23,699 --> 00:55:26,569
And that actually is what's happening
with the whole return to office thing

894
00:55:26,569 --> 00:55:28,829
is, it's not that people object to.

895
00:55:30,109 --> 00:55:31,819
It's not that they don't want to work.

896
00:55:31,819 --> 00:55:33,799
It's not that they refuse
to go into the office.

897
00:55:33,819 --> 00:55:35,729
It's because they don't feel heard.

898
00:55:36,359 --> 00:55:37,989
That's the really big
thing that's happened.

899
00:55:38,669 --> 00:55:39,079
That's right.

900
00:55:39,129 --> 00:55:42,479
And they are, and it's and
when the leadership says

901
00:55:42,479 --> 00:55:43,789
we don't feel heard either.

902
00:55:44,099 --> 00:55:46,249
This is where I would urge people to say,

903
00:55:48,869 --> 00:55:51,219
because are you asking people
to hear something that you

904
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:54,279
haven't actually said, right?

905
00:55:54,359 --> 00:55:56,789
And that is how could they hear that?

906
00:55:57,019 --> 00:56:02,639
And so this is why so often it really
is so important to it's, to say what

907
00:56:02,639 --> 00:56:07,629
they can't unhear, you have to say
what they can't hear first, right?

908
00:56:07,629 --> 00:56:09,349
In order for that to be the case.

909
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:15,969
And that sometimes means digging deep
into really understanding what is driving

910
00:56:15,979 --> 00:56:20,719
why you believe a particular change
is actually the right thing to do.

911
00:56:20,819 --> 00:56:23,129
And then discovering what in that.

912
00:56:23,454 --> 00:56:27,014
And then deciding what does that
mean for either how you change the

913
00:56:27,014 --> 00:56:31,524
message or how you're going about
making the change in the first place.

914
00:56:33,554 --> 00:56:36,214
All right, we should wrap it up
because we are over time at this

915
00:56:36,214 --> 00:56:38,174
point, but thank you so much.

916
00:56:38,184 --> 00:56:39,904
It's always lovely to chat with you.

917
00:56:40,004 --> 00:56:42,764
I did find the book immensely helpful.

918
00:56:42,764 --> 00:56:46,554
I think in my review, I actually
wrote immediately useful because.

919
00:56:46,944 --> 00:56:48,484
I was actually applying it.

920
00:56:48,574 --> 00:56:51,284
If I, if you go back through my
social, you'll actually see I was

921
00:56:51,284 --> 00:56:53,244
weaving, smart, capable, and good.

922
00:56:53,244 --> 00:56:56,444
And I was actually weaving it
into things I was already writing.

923
00:56:56,654 --> 00:56:57,374
Oh, I love that.

924
00:56:58,044 --> 00:56:59,584
Yeah, it was, is really cool.

925
00:56:59,584 --> 00:57:01,494
And so definitely the book is out today.

926
00:57:01,494 --> 00:57:03,284
I checked my mailbox to
see if it had arrived.

927
00:57:03,284 --> 00:57:04,224
It hadn't arrived yet.

928
00:57:04,634 --> 00:57:05,954
But it's already hitting the charts.

929
00:57:05,964 --> 00:57:09,604
So if you get the book, Say what
they can on here by Tamsyn Webster,

930
00:57:09,864 --> 00:57:11,564
write a review for her on Amazon.

931
00:57:12,054 --> 00:57:15,384
And we want the next book in the series
because it's helped me to this point.

932
00:57:15,384 --> 00:57:16,464
Share your time with me.

933
00:57:16,464 --> 00:57:18,994
And I'm just very grateful
to be able to have such an

934
00:57:19,004 --> 00:57:20,384
engaging conversation with you.

935
00:57:20,824 --> 00:57:21,704
Oh, thank you so much.

936
00:57:21,704 --> 00:57:22,354
I appreciate it.