Say What They Can't Unhear: Tamsen Webster

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I'll see you next time.

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Thank you so much for joining me.

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I'm Nola Simon.

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I'm the host of the Hybrid Remote
Center of Excellence and joining

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me today is Tamsen Webster.

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She is a prime example of somebody that
I've built a relationship with over time.

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I've actually followed
Tamsen probably for years.

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When did the red thread come out?

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That came out in 2021, but
I've been talking about the

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red thread for eight years now.

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So my role was actually my corporate
role was actually restructured in 2020.

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So I started paying attention to LinkedIn.

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I wasn't writing, but
I was consuming a lot.

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And so I think I started
noticing you around there.

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So I've honestly been following
you probably since then, but

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I just connected this year.

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And I had attended one of your workshops
that one of my other podcast guests

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Marty Constant had made available.

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And then I connected after that.

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So I always tell people I, I don't
accept pitches from my podcast.

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I like to invite people that
I've got to know online.

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So I know your work, and Tansyn's work
has been instrumental to helping me

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develop the messaging for my business.

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And I'm really excited that she's
come out now with a new book,

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another new book, which is called
Say What They Can't Unhear.

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And I gotta tell you, the ding is
something that we really have to talk

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about because I know that although it
manifests differently for me as well.

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Tamsen, how do you
describe your profession?

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Obviously you're an author,
you're a keynote speaker you're

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deeply involved with TED Talks
How do you describe yourself?

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Like what's your perfect
message to deliver who you are?

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So I, for folks that would understand
at least somewhat intuitively I say that

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I'm message designer, so I have, after a
lot of trial and error, that seems to be

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something where most people generally.

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Yes, correctly what that probably means.

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So meaning you've got something
you want to say and you're trying

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to figure out how to say it.

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I help you do that.

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My more my like sassier answer, my
cheekier answer, which is also correct is

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that I'm an English to English translator.

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Because I think that's
what I'm I help people do.

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But fundamentally, I feel like that
my I don't even feel, I know that

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my deep passion is helping people
help other people create change.

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And so whatever I can put together,
learn, process, size, tams and eyes,

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whatever, to help people really get what
their, their difference of perspective,

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their approaches, their offerings,
their ideas, their initiatives, all of

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these things that they're, investing
time and money in to make a change for

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themselves, for the world, for clients,
customers, whatever it might be.

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I want to make sure that they have as
much opportunity for success as possible.

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And so that's where I come in because I've
somehow cobbled together this deep and

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long interest, both in transformational
change and in communications.

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And so I've put those together.

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To create message design.

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Awesome.

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Perfect.

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Yeah.

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I was always fascinated that part of your
origin story really is Weight Watchers.

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And a lot of that, when you're trying
to lose weight is cause I remember my

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mom did this probably in the eighties.

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A lot of it is,

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She did manage to lose a lot of weight.

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She came back, but that, that was always
something that caught my attention

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because I remember her experience
with that, but a lot of times it's the

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stories that you tell yourself, right?

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Yes, absolutely.

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And yes, it is a hundred percent.

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I think it's to quote one of my members
she always said that it's 99 percent

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mental and the rest is just food.

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And that's, that is, we know now
that's, it's not quite as pure as that.

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I think that's one of the things I'm
delighted that science has caught up

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with what was observable in the 13 years
that I was a Weight Watchers leader.

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And that is, is that.

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There are fundamental physiological
differences between people that

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no amount of retraining your
thoughts or positive self talk

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or willpower will, will overcome.

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And so it's not that it's not possible.

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It's just that it was one of the of so
many lessons I learned in the years that

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I moonlighted as a Weight Watchers leader.

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One of them is that to be very
wary of one size fits all.

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Anything, right?

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One size fits all approach.

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One size fits all message.

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Because.

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That is bearing it, that bears with it
a lot of assumptions about what you're

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offering and who you're talking to.

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And those can get you in
trouble on both sides.

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I don't like getting in trouble that
way, which is probably why I've spent

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so much time You know, because I've
had some horror stories of just whoop,

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that was not the right way to say that.

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And so that's, that's part of
where all this has come from.

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And now that I've gotten to a certain
point in my life, in my career, where I

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feel like it's mathematically impossible
for me to be the age that I am, but

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there are some objective truths, that I
really have gotten to a point where it's.

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Where I feel like, I have
something to say on this like I,

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I, I have put all this together.

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I've seen this work.

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I've done the work.

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I have done the research.

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I have done the testing just to see what
it is that works and doesn't work so

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that within a world that is constantly
changing and with people who are you

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know, I feel I have something to say on
this like I, I Just absolutely different.

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Person to person in so
many different ways.

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What are some of the things that are
reliably true, no matter what, no matter

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who you're talking to, no matter what the
situation is, because that I think gives

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you at least a place to start and gives
you a place to start where you're starting

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with the strength of what is Known, right?

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This is how people think about things,
this is how people make sense of

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information, this is how people react
when they're treated a certain way.

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If those are some of the things that
either will move a change forward or

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back or get in the way of the message or
accelerate it, , it, solvable problems.

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Unsolved solvable problems drive me nuts.

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And this is one of those where I, when I
come to looking at messaging and change

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messaging, I'm like these, most of the
things, most of the places where we go

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wrong are completely solvable and I just
really wanted to help people solve that.

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Yeah, no, it makes sense.

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So in Tamsyn's book, she has these
nine principles that are they're so

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logical, they're so straightforward,
but they're brilliant, right?

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Thank you.

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And one of them that really caught my
attention, I think that's really where

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you're talking about this too, is the
deepest beliefs are the hardest to shift.

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And I always found that because
I always lived north of the north

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of Toronto and worked in the city.

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And so they would the company
would often come out with like

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messages that were designed to
be for the majority of employees.

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I wasn't the majority of employees
because I didn't live in the city.

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I, A lot of and a lot of times I didn't
fit so they would come out my favorite

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was always the, let's save the planet.

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Let's bike to work.

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I don't know.

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I live 60 kilometers north of the
city like that's not going to happen.

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You can't bike on the freeway for one.

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It's illegal to I'm probably going to be.

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I'm still biking six hours later and then
I have to turn around and go home, right?

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So fundamentally, like my belief
was, this is not a message that's

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designed for me because you have
no clue how I even get to work.

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You don't even know who I am.

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Or that's, oh, or that's all you're left
to think, absent the information, any

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other information being put out there.

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So Again, it's such a
solvable problem, right?

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All that take, took, all that
would take is a, I'm no grammarian

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a dependent clause that says, for
those of you who live in the city.

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But, right?

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Yeah.

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Because at least what that
does is say, this is for you.

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And when it comes to those deep beliefs,
so the way that I, as you probably figured

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out by reading these things they're
all like nine different perspectives

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on what kind of sits in the center is.

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The same thing.

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It's not all the same thing, but it's
different avenues into this kind of nut

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of what is it that people have to hear in
order to understand and adapt a new idea.

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And.

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The deepest beliefs are
the hardest to shift.

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That one is in the trio, like that
one sits at the heart of the book.

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It's number five.

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So it's like literally in the
middle of all the pieces, because I

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think, for me, it is one of the most
counterintuitive principles of inspiring

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long term change or creating the
conditions that are more likely for it.

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And there's good reasons for that.

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The good reason for it is that it's
counterintuitive is that when we think

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about deep beliefs and, we'll acknowledge
that they're hard to shift, and the

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reason why I chose that phrasing was
because most people, A, would agree with

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it, but B, they see that as a problem.

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They see that it's a problem that
deep beliefs are hard to shift.

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And my perspective is that.

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No belief.

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Very few beliefs.

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Let me be careful.

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One always has to be
careful with absolutes.

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Very few beliefs that anybody
holds are equally true for

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them in every context, right?

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And what I mean by that is so all that
has to happen when you combine that

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principle with let's say every decision
has a story, which is the second one,

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which is All someone has to hear is
something else they believe to be true

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or recognize as true that is just as
strong or stronger and that they can

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notch into the story they're telling
themselves, but in a different way.

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And though I didn't have the language
for it back when I was a weight watchers

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leader it's again, one of the ones that,
that truly had its birth there because

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so often, your experience with weight
loss was my experience with weight loss,

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which is that I had tried and failed any
number of times before I finally found

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and created this kind of combination
of factors that, that worked for me.

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And certainly one of the things that
I observed over 13 years was that

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one of the biggest and most dangerous
things that could happen was someone

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faulting themselves for failure and
adding that to the mental tally of

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this belief that I can't do this thing.

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And so often when that's the operating
deep belief, I just can't, it's my genes.

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Like I'm just destined to be this way.

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And I felt that way about myself,
which is just like I come from

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a family of overweight women.

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And so maybe this is just
who I'm supposed to be.

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And what I found that was the antidote
to that kind of, setting where

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people set themselves up for failure
was instead of saying, put okay.

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Instead of putting all your eggs in a
belief that you haven't tested this is

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possible for me, or in a new behavior of
let me stop eating some food that I love.

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What would happen if, it really started
with a question, what would happen if

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we could map over something that they
are already good at someplace else?

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And for me personally,
just as an example, I am.

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almost pathologically a rule follower
and a systems follower, which is

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one of the reasons why for me Weight
watchers was a really good match.

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It is not a good match for people who
See it as a constricting framework.

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And or and aren't able or don't
have a leader who could show them or

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present them with a different way to
conceive of those same guidelines.

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But for me, it was like, once I found a
system, I was like, yes, this is awesome.

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I am great at following rules.

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Just give me rules as long as the
rules aren't too hard to follow.

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And for me, it was like mapping that
over and saying, oh, it's just a budget.

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And instead of thinking of myself
like, oh, I'm a bad person, food is

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good or bad, it for me, that system
neutralized the emotional attachment

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to it all to, to me, to, to the food.

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And so again, for me, once it, once, it
was, this is just about, solving a puzzle.

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Another thing I love, like
how do I get the food I want?

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into this framework that's
being presented to me, then it

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became actually like a game.

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Not one that I chose to gamify, because,
again, a thing I learned over time,

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was that, like, when you're trying
to play that game you win, you lose,

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and if you lose, you win, right?

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It's just you're, it's all you.

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Who are you trying to win against?

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Who are you playing against?

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Exactly.

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And, but I would, so once I was like
that, again, it wasn't the program

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that worked for me so much as there
was this aspect of the program that

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I could link to something that I was
already confident that I did well.

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And so that was a stacking.

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Before habit stacking was a thing, really.

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Yeah, because it was just like this
idea of again I'm, I love puzzles.

226
00:14:19,277 --> 00:14:20,257
Let me figure this out.

227
00:14:20,267 --> 00:14:22,007
Let me let me figure out how to do this.

228
00:14:22,017 --> 00:14:23,567
And I'm also a little ornery.

229
00:14:23,597 --> 00:14:24,717
I'm contrarian.

230
00:14:24,727 --> 00:14:29,137
So if you're like, It's not
possible to keep doing X, Y, or Z.

231
00:14:29,477 --> 00:14:32,817
Then I'm like I'm going to see if
it's possible if I can still have

232
00:14:32,817 --> 00:14:35,557
dark chocolate every day, and I
can still have my ice cream, and

233
00:14:35,557 --> 00:14:36,927
I can still have these things.

234
00:14:36,927 --> 00:14:40,087
The whole reason why I joined walked
into Weight Watchers for the first

235
00:14:40,087 --> 00:14:44,797
day is because I saw this hilarious
episode of the Oprah Winfrey show.

236
00:14:45,012 --> 00:14:48,142
When Sarah, the Duchess of
Ferguson was on here, this is

237
00:14:48,142 --> 00:14:50,042
dating me rather significantly.

238
00:14:50,072 --> 00:14:50,512
That's okay.

239
00:14:50,512 --> 00:14:51,452
We're the same age.

240
00:14:52,262 --> 00:14:52,502
Yeah.

241
00:14:53,032 --> 00:14:58,222
And they were, they like a got themselves
pretty much drunk on television and

242
00:14:58,222 --> 00:15:01,782
then attempted these two women who
really don't cook for themselves

243
00:15:01,802 --> 00:15:03,212
to make chocolate chip cookies.

244
00:15:03,522 --> 00:15:08,092
And I just, Hey, it was such like a
joyful thing, but also this whole idea

245
00:15:08,092 --> 00:15:11,882
of Oh, it linked into to bring it back
to some of the things that I talk about

246
00:15:11,882 --> 00:15:15,412
in the book, something that I recognized
is true, which is that if I couldn't

247
00:15:15,452 --> 00:15:21,142
lose weight doing the things that I
love, how could I possibly keep it off?

248
00:15:21,732 --> 00:15:25,907
So it just again from a thing that
You know, from assessing for myself.

249
00:15:25,907 --> 00:15:29,887
What hadn't worked in the past was
like, okay, if it's too restrictive,

250
00:15:29,887 --> 00:15:30,797
I'm not going to stay on it.

251
00:15:30,797 --> 00:15:34,837
If I telling me if I don't, if I feel
embarrassed about telling somebody

252
00:15:34,847 --> 00:15:39,497
else what I'm doing to lose weight or
to get healthy I'm not going to do it.

253
00:15:39,737 --> 00:15:41,657
If it's too extreme,
I'm not going to do it.

254
00:15:41,657 --> 00:15:47,817
And so it was really getting to a point
of saying, okay, I know what I need

255
00:15:47,827 --> 00:15:49,607
from something in order to make it work.

256
00:15:49,617 --> 00:15:52,817
And then it was just about
finding that intersection.

257
00:15:53,557 --> 00:15:57,967
And that was the role that I saw
myself as a way watchers leader with

258
00:15:57,997 --> 00:16:03,087
my members was, one thing that they
said that the company said to me once

259
00:16:03,087 --> 00:16:04,927
upon a time, which I couldn't unhear.

260
00:16:04,927 --> 00:16:08,177
And I still use this in any number of
ways was, they said to us at one point

261
00:16:08,177 --> 00:16:13,127
during ongoing training that we would
have that, our job was to be the expert.

262
00:16:13,467 --> 00:16:19,387
In the program and to recognize that our
members were the expert in themselves

263
00:16:20,237 --> 00:16:26,917
and that our job was to figure out how
to blend the expertise, not to presume

264
00:16:26,937 --> 00:16:29,917
that we knew what the right way to do.

265
00:16:29,917 --> 00:16:36,152
The program was for them, but to get
as much information and Understand the

266
00:16:36,152 --> 00:16:41,942
program so thoroughly that we could
really adapt it to wherever somebody was.

267
00:16:41,952 --> 00:16:46,282
So an example, I find a
window or a door, right?

268
00:16:46,312 --> 00:16:46,892
Exactly.

269
00:16:46,902 --> 00:16:50,912
And one of those windows of the
doors was I grew up in the point

270
00:16:50,912 --> 00:16:53,952
system of Weight Watchers, which
is basically like a budget, right?

271
00:16:53,952 --> 00:16:59,757
You get a certain number of Points to eat
in a day and food has points and your job,

272
00:16:59,797 --> 00:17:05,737
like a budget, is don't go over budget and
one of the things that was very difficult

273
00:17:05,747 --> 00:17:13,007
for people was when they deeply believed
that they were a night eater, like a

274
00:17:13,007 --> 00:17:16,677
label that they would assign to themselves
saying that they're a night eater and

275
00:17:16,697 --> 00:17:20,342
what that means for folks that may not
be familiar with that term is that it.

276
00:17:20,912 --> 00:17:26,052
They were they were great fleeing
things that you were they were,

277
00:17:26,142 --> 00:17:30,242
they felt like they really had
great and strong control through

278
00:17:30,242 --> 00:17:33,242
most of the day and through dinner.

279
00:17:33,642 --> 00:17:37,952
And then somewhere between dinner and
bedtime, the wheels would just come off.

280
00:17:38,622 --> 00:17:39,722
And some of that.

281
00:17:39,862 --> 00:17:43,352
As I observed over time again,
13 years and, with a number of

282
00:17:43,352 --> 00:17:47,632
meetings that I led in, around my
day job, I did the math one time.

283
00:17:47,632 --> 00:17:49,572
It was 3000 meetings.

284
00:17:50,102 --> 00:17:52,862
You pick up some data from doing that.

285
00:17:53,322 --> 00:17:54,787
And one of the things that I did.

286
00:17:55,307 --> 00:17:59,957
Picked up was that people that would
get so desperate because they would

287
00:17:59,957 --> 00:18:04,867
run out of points because the, the
points have worked for 24 hours.

288
00:18:04,917 --> 00:18:06,567
Most people started them in the morning.

289
00:18:06,567 --> 00:18:10,617
And so again, if you get to the end
of the day and at the time they wanted

290
00:18:10,617 --> 00:18:16,727
to or needed to eat or, do whatever
food was doing for them was the time

291
00:18:16,727 --> 00:18:17,637
when they had the fewest points.

292
00:18:18,612 --> 00:18:20,462
And they had got a lot of them again.

293
00:18:20,462 --> 00:18:24,022
We get to that point where they were
just like, then I can't do this because

294
00:18:24,062 --> 00:18:26,412
the program doesn't work with who I am.

295
00:18:27,322 --> 00:18:30,892
And I spent some time trying to
figure this one out for people

296
00:18:30,902 --> 00:18:33,872
because there really are a lot of
people for whom this is a challenge.

297
00:18:34,302 --> 00:18:40,282
And then I was like but there's
nowhere in this literature that says

298
00:18:40,282 --> 00:18:42,872
the points start in the morning.

299
00:18:43,052 --> 00:18:45,502
The points are just 24 hours.

300
00:18:46,052 --> 00:18:50,562
What I ended up doing was
saying to them, hey, guess what?

301
00:18:51,422 --> 00:18:56,052
There's no, nothing says that you have
to start the points in the morning.

302
00:18:56,662 --> 00:18:58,902
It's just 24 hours of points.

303
00:18:58,922 --> 00:19:01,932
And yeah, it's going to mean you're
going to need to play with the journaling

304
00:19:01,942 --> 00:19:04,892
things that we've got and where
you write things down a little bit.

305
00:19:05,272 --> 00:19:09,132
But as long as you can feel like
you can keep track, then start your

306
00:19:09,132 --> 00:19:15,562
points at dinner because deeper
belief that I anchored it to.

307
00:19:15,967 --> 00:19:17,687
That there's 24 hours in a day.

308
00:19:18,162 --> 00:19:18,402
Yeah.

309
00:19:18,482 --> 00:19:21,962
And that 24 hours can start at any time.

310
00:19:22,452 --> 00:19:26,092
And so for many people, I'm
not saying all, but for many

311
00:19:26,092 --> 00:19:28,182
people, just that simple shift.

312
00:19:28,182 --> 00:19:30,352
Again, I didn't have to tell
them they weren't night eaters.

313
00:19:30,582 --> 00:19:32,152
I didn't have to change who they were.

314
00:19:32,512 --> 00:19:36,442
All I was doing was saying,
there is something else that is

315
00:19:36,482 --> 00:19:41,282
actually, in this case, outside
of you, that's even more reliable.

316
00:19:41,777 --> 00:19:44,867
That it that when it comes
together with you actually

317
00:19:44,867 --> 00:19:46,517
gives you a path forward here.

318
00:19:46,957 --> 00:19:51,457
And that works too for, cause like people
who work night shifts, it's a way to be

319
00:19:51,527 --> 00:19:55,087
more flexible with the reality of who
they're like, who they are in their life.

320
00:19:55,137 --> 00:19:55,277
Yeah.

321
00:19:55,347 --> 00:19:55,517
And.

322
00:19:55,937 --> 00:19:57,297
There's always something like that.

323
00:19:57,317 --> 00:20:01,467
I I should say I always start with
the assumption or the belief that

324
00:20:01,467 --> 00:20:06,287
there's something like that because
it allows me to start looking for it.

325
00:20:06,337 --> 00:20:10,587
Then, if I come into any situation
where I'm trying to help someone

326
00:20:10,587 --> 00:20:14,397
change or help someone help other
people or their organization change.

327
00:20:15,587 --> 00:20:19,737
If I come in saying, how do we
get them to say yes to this?

328
00:20:20,157 --> 00:20:25,152
Then I've created a really binary
situation where it's just Yes, not

329
00:20:25,152 --> 00:20:31,172
yes to this change, not how can I
open up and say, All right, we are

330
00:20:31,172 --> 00:20:34,112
trying to achieve this larger thing.

331
00:20:34,772 --> 00:20:36,702
Are we all in agreement about that?

332
00:20:36,732 --> 00:20:40,462
Are we trying, in Weight Watchers,
are we trying to achieve health goals?

333
00:20:41,042 --> 00:20:41,472
Yeah.

334
00:20:41,522 --> 00:20:42,062
Okay, great.

335
00:20:42,472 --> 00:20:45,822
Then as long as we're in agreement
about that, we're going to start there.

336
00:20:45,942 --> 00:20:49,572
Now let's take point by point
and say, what, where else are we

337
00:20:49,582 --> 00:20:51,022
where are the points of conflict?

338
00:20:51,132 --> 00:20:52,052
Where aren't they?

339
00:20:52,722 --> 00:20:59,252
But by avoiding looking and trying to
challenge those deep beliefs and really

340
00:20:59,252 --> 00:21:03,202
just coming at it from whatever the
situation is from a different direction

341
00:21:03,762 --> 00:21:09,492
and finding something that is strong
as strong or a stronger than what's

342
00:21:09,492 --> 00:21:15,602
standing in the way, then we allow people
to tell themselves a different story.

343
00:21:16,652 --> 00:21:21,442
In their head or one that now
has a possibility of success,

344
00:21:21,612 --> 00:21:23,242
whereas the current one doesn't.

345
00:21:23,612 --> 00:21:28,412
And when somebody wants the outcome
enough, they will, at least at that point,

346
00:21:28,522 --> 00:21:34,092
be willing to try because they'll agree
in principle now that it's possible.

347
00:21:34,642 --> 00:21:35,422
And.

348
00:21:36,272 --> 00:21:38,842
For a lot of us and with a lot of
change that we're trying to do in

349
00:21:38,842 --> 00:21:44,412
organizations, like that's the first
barrier that we run up against, which

350
00:21:44,412 --> 00:21:49,282
is people reject it at a hand before
even because there's just dismissed.

351
00:21:49,282 --> 00:21:50,212
It is not possible.

352
00:21:50,522 --> 00:21:55,702
And this is where I, I, one of the many
things I hope that people pull from the

353
00:21:55,702 --> 00:22:04,012
book is just this idea of that little tiny
yes, that comes saying, is it possible?

354
00:22:04,647 --> 00:22:10,037
Do you agree in principle that this would
work, that this is, that this makes sense?

355
00:22:10,367 --> 00:22:13,227
Again, not based on data and evidence.

356
00:22:13,377 --> 00:22:14,237
Those are important.

357
00:22:14,417 --> 00:22:15,337
They come later.

358
00:22:15,687 --> 00:22:21,217
But intuitively, based on what you
recognize as true become something

359
00:22:21,227 --> 00:22:25,897
that will shift what you how
you think about the world or how

360
00:22:25,897 --> 00:22:28,177
you think about the situation or
how you think about this change.

361
00:22:28,517 --> 00:22:33,007
And I think that's really where the key
is so that it comes it flips from the

362
00:22:33,007 --> 00:22:38,567
deepest beliefs are the hardest to shift
as being a problem to the deepest beliefs

363
00:22:38,567 --> 00:22:43,267
are the hardest to shift actually tell
you where to start to solve the problem.

364
00:22:44,027 --> 00:22:48,167
Start with by building on
those deep beliefs rather

365
00:22:48,167 --> 00:22:50,267
than trying to challenge them.

366
00:22:50,997 --> 00:22:55,637
Yeah, no, I the question comes up with
my work is the whole return to office

367
00:22:55,747 --> 00:22:59,547
debate and everybody, like all these
CEOs trying to bring people back in

368
00:22:59,547 --> 00:23:01,937
because of collaboration and innovation.

369
00:23:02,447 --> 00:23:05,657
And, that the work is just
better in the office and people

370
00:23:05,657 --> 00:23:07,287
fundamentally don't believe them.

371
00:23:07,442 --> 00:23:10,032
Because for one, they've been
able to work well at home.

372
00:23:10,532 --> 00:23:14,882
Two, their role doesn't really
involve innovation or collaboration.

373
00:23:15,152 --> 00:23:20,022
And as we've tried in the past, they
haven't succeeded to actually influence

374
00:23:20,022 --> 00:23:21,592
that innovation and collaboration.

375
00:23:21,972 --> 00:23:27,392
And so fundamentally there's that
disagreement about those beliefs.

376
00:23:27,492 --> 00:23:28,032
Yes.

377
00:23:28,062 --> 00:23:29,777
And I would venture to say.

378
00:23:31,507 --> 00:23:32,297
That

379
00:23:37,067 --> 00:23:42,197
in some of those cases where the
leadership is bringing people back,

380
00:23:43,377 --> 00:23:47,287
they don't actually believe that
it they don't believe it either.

381
00:23:47,867 --> 00:23:49,527
And that actually isn't the reason.

382
00:23:50,387 --> 00:23:51,077
Bringing them back.

383
00:23:51,437 --> 00:23:55,957
And so the thing is that, particularly,
I think people's intuitive BS

384
00:23:55,977 --> 00:23:58,137
meter has always been very good.

385
00:23:58,427 --> 00:24:06,597
But employees to their employers is super
good because they have a lot of history

386
00:24:06,667 --> 00:24:08,747
with the behavior of the organization.

387
00:24:09,107 --> 00:24:10,307
And and guess what?

388
00:24:10,797 --> 00:24:18,332
We are, as humans, we are
actually Nonverbal first.

389
00:24:18,382 --> 00:24:18,742
Like that.

390
00:24:19,292 --> 00:24:30,122
And we will trust what we experience
with all of ourselves far more than

391
00:24:30,122 --> 00:24:32,162
any words we ever attach to it.

392
00:24:32,682 --> 00:24:32,802
Yeah.

393
00:24:32,862 --> 00:24:37,652
And this is where, again, as part of the
motivation of this book, which is just

394
00:24:37,652 --> 00:24:43,162
saying, listen, if you can't actually
make a, I know this is gonna sound super.

395
00:24:44,357 --> 00:24:45,077
rational.

396
00:24:45,137 --> 00:24:46,677
I don't get to the reason why it's not.

397
00:24:46,687 --> 00:24:51,877
But if you can't make both a
valid and sound argument that

398
00:24:52,167 --> 00:24:55,377
your audience agrees is valid and
sound, and what I mean by valid and

399
00:24:55,377 --> 00:24:57,527
sound is it is a logical argument.

400
00:24:57,567 --> 00:25:02,137
Like it's complete, meaning this plus
this equals this and they agree with you.

401
00:25:03,127 --> 00:25:07,977
And sound, meaning the premises upon
which you are, like, the thing where

402
00:25:07,977 --> 00:25:11,457
you're saying, this is true, and this
is true, therefore, if they don't agree

403
00:25:11,457 --> 00:25:14,367
with one of those two things, then
the argument is dead in the water.

404
00:25:15,517 --> 00:25:16,767
And I know you're right.

405
00:25:16,767 --> 00:25:21,777
Because I've seen and I know you're right
because I've seen it as well that people

406
00:25:21,777 --> 00:25:25,577
don't believe that they're more creative
or innovative when they're all together.

407
00:25:26,157 --> 00:25:28,977
I also know that the studies say that.

408
00:25:29,712 --> 00:25:32,912
They are wrong that when people
are together, they actually are.

409
00:25:32,952 --> 00:25:34,522
And then you're going to say yes.

410
00:25:34,522 --> 00:25:37,392
And some of those studies came
from places like Microsoft.

411
00:25:37,392 --> 00:25:38,922
Of course, it's self serving again.

412
00:25:38,922 --> 00:25:41,672
Everybody's we can get the
numbers to say whatever we want.

413
00:25:42,152 --> 00:25:46,702
But here's what I would say
that even people who are

414
00:25:49,352 --> 00:25:51,882
reluctant to come back to the office.

415
00:25:52,407 --> 00:25:53,647
All the time, regardless.

416
00:25:53,967 --> 00:25:57,927
You know what I see, and you probably see
it, too, because I go into organizations

417
00:25:58,087 --> 00:26:02,137
to speak often at these occasions when
they have brought everyone together

418
00:26:02,367 --> 00:26:09,837
when they've been remote is that magic
happens, particularly in the non formal

419
00:26:10,197 --> 00:26:15,297
situations when you bring people together
when there's lunches together when they

420
00:26:15,297 --> 00:26:21,057
all go out to karaoke together and those
kinds of things and What I, where I

421
00:26:21,087 --> 00:26:25,277
think these back to work and I get not
an expert in all of this like you are,

422
00:26:25,277 --> 00:26:32,707
but where I suspect a lot of this breaks
down is that if the leadership actually

423
00:26:32,767 --> 00:26:35,437
articulated their own case to themselves,

424
00:26:38,567 --> 00:26:41,697
they actually wouldn't be able to make
an argument that actually because if

425
00:26:41,697 --> 00:26:44,462
they took off, one of the things I
talk about in the introduction to the

426
00:26:44,462 --> 00:26:49,482
book is what I call the persuaders
paradox, meaning we get so convinced

427
00:26:49,482 --> 00:26:52,767
of our own idea Or so charged with.

428
00:26:52,777 --> 00:26:55,987
We have to make this thing happen
that I have to convince people that

429
00:26:56,027 --> 00:27:02,547
we often will engage in a persuasion
techniques and attempts that if we were

430
00:27:02,547 --> 00:27:06,327
to take that hat off for a moment, we
would never tolerate for ourselves.

431
00:27:06,697 --> 00:27:07,587
Yeah, and.

432
00:27:09,507 --> 00:27:12,187
It's one of those things where,
you know, cause I see it a lot.

433
00:27:12,187 --> 00:27:14,447
It's the role I often
play in organizations.

434
00:27:14,457 --> 00:27:18,927
So thank you, brave clients where,
they'll say we believe that it's, it's

435
00:27:18,927 --> 00:27:20,207
going to be better for collaboration.

436
00:27:20,207 --> 00:27:20,697
Innovation.

437
00:27:20,697 --> 00:27:25,177
I'm like, and I would say, do you
believe you are more collaborative and

438
00:27:25,207 --> 00:27:28,377
innovative are equally collaborative,
innovative working remote.

439
00:27:28,787 --> 00:27:32,797
And I think a fair portion of those
people would be like yeah, I am, but.

440
00:27:33,162 --> 00:27:33,882
They aren't.

441
00:27:34,222 --> 00:27:34,432
Right?

442
00:27:34,512 --> 00:27:36,892
And it's this kind of perspective.

443
00:27:36,902 --> 00:27:40,342
So anyway, I think a lot of it
comes down to really thinking about

444
00:27:42,112 --> 00:27:47,182
what would be an argument that
The employees would agree is true.

445
00:27:47,802 --> 00:27:52,262
What would be the premises that the
employees would agree would make sense.

446
00:27:52,282 --> 00:27:59,362
And I think one of the one of the
avenues for that is recalling a recalling

447
00:27:59,362 --> 00:28:03,102
those experiences where there has been
something magical about getting people

448
00:28:03,112 --> 00:28:08,622
physically together and then be making
sure that your policies procedures

449
00:28:08,622 --> 00:28:10,452
that are in fact what's happening.

450
00:28:10,452 --> 00:28:13,902
The way that I've come to define
something that someone can't unhear

451
00:28:14,742 --> 00:28:22,522
is that it is a recognizable truth
that creates, crystallizes, or

452
00:28:22,522 --> 00:28:25,132
corrupts how they see the world.

453
00:28:26,562 --> 00:28:32,912
And the issue is when you're trying to
get someone to change, And they and the

454
00:28:32,932 --> 00:28:39,882
whatever you're presenting to them does
not do one of those four things, right?

455
00:28:39,882 --> 00:28:41,322
It's not a recognizable truth.

456
00:28:41,332 --> 00:28:45,802
They don't see it in play or
it doesn't do one of those and

457
00:28:45,832 --> 00:28:46,832
then it's not going to work.

458
00:28:47,092 --> 00:28:51,432
So when it comes to back to office
again, it's like, where do people agree?

459
00:28:51,572 --> 00:28:52,692
Can we start there?

460
00:28:53,142 --> 00:28:53,622
And.

461
00:28:53,917 --> 00:28:55,387
Again, I think the path is like there.

462
00:28:55,397 --> 00:28:58,477
There are these magical moments
where when people are physically

463
00:28:58,477 --> 00:29:00,077
together, other stuff happens.

464
00:29:00,097 --> 00:29:02,527
It may not be collaboration
and innovation.

465
00:29:02,527 --> 00:29:06,637
It may be something else that
enables more of that to happen later.

466
00:29:07,017 --> 00:29:12,007
But then the second step is critical
on the part of the organization, which

467
00:29:12,007 --> 00:29:17,647
is to set up the situations where those
things are actually going to happen.

468
00:29:17,967 --> 00:29:21,077
Because the vast majority of
people I talk to who have been at.

469
00:29:21,667 --> 00:29:26,337
In their terms, forced back to work part
of the reason why they're so frustrated

470
00:29:26,337 --> 00:29:31,967
by it is because they're sitting
physically at work in online meetings.

471
00:29:32,607 --> 00:29:37,337
Yes, I survived a return
to office mandate in 2013.

472
00:29:37,347 --> 00:29:41,187
So long before online meetings
were really regular, I think.

473
00:29:41,567 --> 00:29:44,987
And part of it was we were brought
back because the infrastructure didn't

474
00:29:45,687 --> 00:29:48,987
necessarily support everything that we
were trying to do at that particular time.

475
00:29:50,702 --> 00:29:54,782
And I had driven a lot of it and I knew
it was completely possible to do it.

476
00:29:54,782 --> 00:29:58,352
They just needed to work together and
they needed to get their act together.

477
00:29:58,712 --> 00:30:02,992
So I had made specific recommendations,
but the way that I coped with that

478
00:30:03,042 --> 00:30:09,262
was actually flipping it and basically
saying that I can make this work for me

479
00:30:09,742 --> 00:30:15,162
because this is what I need to do so that
when we bring it back, it'll work well.

480
00:30:15,487 --> 00:30:19,477
So I flipped it to be like I
could totally work from home.

481
00:30:19,787 --> 00:30:20,937
I could make this work.

482
00:30:21,287 --> 00:30:22,787
But what do I have to do?

483
00:30:22,797 --> 00:30:26,897
How can I help so that everybody
else can get to where I am.

484
00:30:27,287 --> 00:30:30,777
So I went in and I started training
people how to use webinar software.

485
00:30:31,117 --> 00:30:34,747
I built out operating protocols
and I, I worked with like the tech

486
00:30:34,777 --> 00:30:36,287
team and I did all of that work.

487
00:30:36,287 --> 00:30:40,037
Like I never really stopped working on
it, even though it was never my job.

488
00:30:40,537 --> 00:30:45,157
And so assuming that identity and
flipping that helped me deal with the

489
00:30:45,157 --> 00:30:48,627
emotional impacts of it, even though,
it was still aggravating, but it's

490
00:30:48,627 --> 00:30:50,587
at least I could flip my perspective.

491
00:30:50,587 --> 00:30:53,707
And I became the person who
is going to make it work.

492
00:30:53,707 --> 00:30:55,677
He was invested and
committed for the longterm.

493
00:30:56,912 --> 00:31:00,212
Yeah, that, that's the,

494
00:31:03,232 --> 00:31:11,327
the risk in this approach is that you
discover that As most marketers know

495
00:31:11,337 --> 00:31:14,867
about marketing messaging, and this
is where a lot of this started for me,

496
00:31:14,877 --> 00:31:16,267
cause that's where my career started.

497
00:31:16,607 --> 00:31:22,137
Marketers know that no amount of great
marketing will fix a product problem.

498
00:31:22,327 --> 00:31:25,707
It's another version of, nothing killed
a bad product, like good advertising.

499
00:31:26,867 --> 00:31:28,982
There is no amount of messaging.

500
00:31:29,282 --> 00:31:33,772
that will make a change
that is not fundamentally in

501
00:31:33,772 --> 00:31:37,332
someone's favor, in their favor.

502
00:31:38,232 --> 00:31:42,152
And I would argue that anything where
you're trying to get them to believe

503
00:31:42,152 --> 00:31:46,957
that it's in their favor is Out of
line with my own personal ethics.

504
00:31:47,307 --> 00:31:52,127
People's own mileage may
vary, but the thing is that

505
00:31:52,167 --> 00:31:53,547
eventually they'll figure it out.

506
00:31:53,597 --> 00:31:55,407
Let's we can get all Shakespearean on it.

507
00:31:55,417 --> 00:32:00,557
Like the truth will out again,
over time, people will see whether

508
00:32:00,577 --> 00:32:04,777
there's a gap between what they
were told and what they experience.

509
00:32:05,157 --> 00:32:09,017
And they are always going to
trust their own experience more.

510
00:32:09,527 --> 00:32:17,967
And so when You know, in those situations
where it really isn't going to work

511
00:32:17,967 --> 00:32:24,297
out for some people on the team,
that's where, this underneath a lot

512
00:32:24,297 --> 00:32:29,067
of, there's a, there is a realization
that may come to some readers of this

513
00:32:29,067 --> 00:32:33,072
book, which is that what this is.

514
00:32:33,072 --> 00:32:37,262
And what that shift in approach does
is that it shifts the risk of the

515
00:32:37,262 --> 00:32:41,852
change onto the person asking for
it or onto the people asking for it.

516
00:32:42,552 --> 00:32:46,512
And that's again my bias.

517
00:32:46,512 --> 00:32:49,012
I've got a lot of reasons for
why I think that's appropriate,

518
00:32:49,012 --> 00:32:50,942
but it like get intuitively.

519
00:32:51,332 --> 00:32:55,302
This is definitely for a book for
people who would agree that is true,

520
00:32:55,322 --> 00:32:57,852
that if I am asking you to change.

521
00:32:58,392 --> 00:32:58,522
The.

522
00:33:00,582 --> 00:33:04,462
If it's a worthwhile change, I should
believe enough in that change to

523
00:33:04,502 --> 00:33:11,752
assume the risks of giving you my
honest, fully transparent reasoning

524
00:33:11,752 --> 00:33:16,632
for it and acknowledge and take
the risk that you may not agree.

525
00:33:17,522 --> 00:33:18,002
Oh, yeah.

526
00:33:18,072 --> 00:33:21,052
Yeah, we had that once
with a software program.

527
00:33:21,052 --> 00:33:21,822
They were trying to bring in.

528
00:33:21,832 --> 00:33:24,582
They did spend 2 million
dollars on like a.

529
00:33:24,812 --> 00:33:27,602
Basically, like a custom CRM
before Salesforce was a thing.

530
00:33:28,022 --> 00:33:30,812
And then they're like we spent
2, 000, 2 million on this.

531
00:33:30,812 --> 00:33:31,722
We need you to use it.

532
00:33:31,732 --> 00:33:33,212
And I'm like, okay, but
you're making my life.

533
00:33:33,647 --> 00:33:34,437
More difficult.

534
00:33:34,587 --> 00:33:35,527
Why would I use it?

535
00:33:35,527 --> 00:33:38,497
Because it doesn't solve
any problem that I have.

536
00:33:39,057 --> 00:33:41,117
You're just adding to my day.

537
00:33:41,387 --> 00:33:45,107
And then eventually they started
adding in things that were useful.

538
00:33:45,577 --> 00:33:48,547
So then it's okay I can
see the use case for that.

539
00:33:48,617 --> 00:33:50,307
That's making my day easier.

540
00:33:51,137 --> 00:33:51,857
I'll use it.

541
00:33:52,167 --> 00:33:55,207
I don't really care about your
2 million that you spent on it.

542
00:33:55,597 --> 00:33:57,357
That's poor planning on your part.

543
00:33:58,107 --> 00:33:58,417
Yes.

544
00:33:58,487 --> 00:34:00,167
If you make my day easier.

545
00:34:00,167 --> 00:34:00,222
Okay.

546
00:34:00,832 --> 00:34:01,662
I'll support you.

547
00:34:03,402 --> 00:34:07,492
And that is where, and that's, for
me, that's always the place to start

548
00:34:07,542 --> 00:34:11,762
a message of change is what, in
what direction are the people you're

549
00:34:11,762 --> 00:34:14,902
talking to already traveling, right?

550
00:34:15,182 --> 00:34:20,212
And one thing that you can rely
on is that your team always

551
00:34:20,212 --> 00:34:21,572
wants their day to be easier.

552
00:34:21,892 --> 00:34:25,392
They always want there
to be less annoyances.

553
00:34:25,392 --> 00:34:31,232
They always want to be, they always want
more time to do the things that they love.

554
00:34:31,572 --> 00:34:36,222
Right now in some companies that culture
is do more of the work and other for

555
00:34:36,222 --> 00:34:39,672
other people and maybe even within that
company that for other people that's

556
00:34:39,832 --> 00:34:44,252
spending more time with friends, family,
loved ones, crossword puzzles, dogs.

557
00:34:44,292 --> 00:34:45,622
I don't know what that is.

558
00:34:47,547 --> 00:34:51,007
This comes back to that fifth principle
of the deepest beliefs are the hardest

559
00:34:51,007 --> 00:34:56,297
to shift because part of the belief
is that I want the thing right?

560
00:34:56,587 --> 00:35:00,657
And if I'm already organized and wired
in the direction of, I'm going to

561
00:35:00,657 --> 00:35:06,647
pursue and be open to anything that
legitimately will make my life easier,

562
00:35:07,407 --> 00:35:09,387
then start the message of change there.

563
00:35:10,082 --> 00:35:13,522
Pretty much one thing that's usually not
going to fly is that it's for the good

564
00:35:13,522 --> 00:35:20,712
of the company, that may fly with your C
suite, but it's still conditional on as

565
00:35:20,722 --> 00:35:24,702
long as it doesn't make my job harder.

566
00:35:24,802 --> 00:35:27,802
And so starting from
there is the first thing.

567
00:35:27,992 --> 00:35:34,432
And then again, so often what we do
when we, All forms of messaging, but

568
00:35:34,432 --> 00:35:38,552
particularly around messaging that's
meant to drive a shift in thinking or

569
00:35:38,552 --> 00:35:45,782
behavior or just create an action is that
we think that, at least we've learned

570
00:35:45,782 --> 00:35:49,952
that just telling people what to do
doesn't work or doesn't work long term

571
00:35:49,962 --> 00:35:53,012
or doesn't work and build the kind of
relationships and culture that you want.

572
00:35:53,552 --> 00:35:56,912
So we've we've, Thanks in no
small part to Simon Sinek.

573
00:35:56,942 --> 00:36:00,072
We've got, we've got this we've
understood now that we, yeah, exactly.

574
00:36:00,262 --> 00:36:01,972
We have to at least explain why.

575
00:36:02,322 --> 00:36:03,852
Why are we doing this thing?

576
00:36:04,062 --> 00:36:07,152
We're doing this thing because
now I would say that when

577
00:36:07,152 --> 00:36:08,732
you're trying to drive action.

578
00:36:09,222 --> 00:36:14,682
That we use the why that doesn't
resonate for people a lot of times,

579
00:36:14,702 --> 00:36:18,512
or it does, but it's a distant,
it's seven rooms over, right?

580
00:36:18,512 --> 00:36:22,402
Whereas if there was something closer,
like for you to say that to, for them

581
00:36:22,402 --> 00:36:23,752
to say we invested a lot of money.

582
00:36:23,752 --> 00:36:26,162
You're like, that doesn't
ring my bell at all.

583
00:36:26,532 --> 00:36:32,952
But if it were legitimately, even if it
were initially positioned as this is going

584
00:36:33,042 --> 00:36:36,682
to make your life easier, what we miss.

585
00:36:36,737 --> 00:36:42,627
And what that means is that is
starting with not just the why behind

586
00:36:42,627 --> 00:36:47,837
what the change is, but the why, but
behind what, how the change works.

587
00:36:47,847 --> 00:36:53,547
In other words, why will this change
actually accomplish this thing?

588
00:36:54,257 --> 00:36:59,122
And that's the one we skip, and that's
the one where we, More often than not

589
00:36:59,162 --> 00:37:04,252
end up with things that we trying to
argue based on things we wish were true,

590
00:37:04,362 --> 00:37:08,512
like the collaboration and innovation,
but not things again, something that

591
00:37:08,512 --> 00:37:13,682
someone can't unhear is a recognizable
truth doesn't mean it actually is, but

592
00:37:13,682 --> 00:37:15,352
they have to recognize it as truth.

593
00:37:15,352 --> 00:37:18,932
And this is where we resolve this
tension between someone going,

594
00:37:19,222 --> 00:37:20,612
this is a very logical approach.

595
00:37:21,022 --> 00:37:24,472
It's logic that uses beliefs in its input.

596
00:37:25,312 --> 00:37:28,042
That's not rational, totally not.

597
00:37:28,532 --> 00:37:31,292
So this is where we
find that middle ground.

598
00:37:31,322 --> 00:37:37,672
But it starts with saying, if you
want people to go along, it's not

599
00:37:37,692 --> 00:37:40,512
their job to move in a new direction.

600
00:37:40,632 --> 00:37:46,032
It's your job to show how the thing
that you're asking them to do doesn't

601
00:37:46,042 --> 00:37:47,632
take them off the path that they're on.

602
00:37:48,012 --> 00:37:52,642
And in fact, may actually
accelerate them towards whatever

603
00:37:52,642 --> 00:37:53,682
it is that they're pursuing.

604
00:37:53,942 --> 00:38:00,107
But it's your job, it's your team's
job, as a leader, as a colleague to, If

605
00:38:00,107 --> 00:38:04,587
you don't know specifically what those
things are to just to do the little

606
00:38:04,587 --> 00:38:09,307
bit of human work that would say what
would a smart, capable, good person,

607
00:38:09,307 --> 00:38:15,147
which all of your team is, by the way,
what would they most likely care about

608
00:38:15,767 --> 00:38:19,647
the most, what would be the most, what
would be the thing that they're most,

609
00:38:20,147 --> 00:38:25,857
caring about again, not, and it isn't
by the way, long term avoiding pain.

610
00:38:26,137 --> 00:38:26,657
It's.

611
00:38:27,267 --> 00:38:30,397
Yes, they want to avoid pain in the
short term, but they also want, there's

612
00:38:30,397 --> 00:38:31,927
something else that they're looking for.

613
00:38:32,137 --> 00:38:37,177
So there's a lot to it, but ultimately
it is, does come down to very simple

614
00:38:37,177 --> 00:38:39,097
principles, which is why I wrote the book.

615
00:38:40,187 --> 00:38:44,447
I like to the smart, capable,
good approach because it helps

616
00:38:44,477 --> 00:38:46,447
people approach it with empathy.

617
00:38:46,732 --> 00:38:49,802
Right, and put themselves in
somebody else's shoes, I find.

618
00:38:49,812 --> 00:38:53,682
So if you assume that everybody is
smart, capable and good, which the

619
00:38:53,682 --> 00:38:57,982
majority of people want to be, I maybe
Elon Musk claims to be an evil genius.

620
00:38:57,982 --> 00:39:00,182
I'm not sure, but if everybody wants.

621
00:39:00,182 --> 00:39:06,102
Yeah, from that perspective, then you have
to consider that, there's a reason that's

622
00:39:06,102 --> 00:39:10,562
driving them that it makes you start
that curiosity thread, which I think is.

623
00:39:11,222 --> 00:39:11,942
It's helpful.

624
00:39:12,592 --> 00:39:13,092
That's right.

625
00:39:13,522 --> 00:39:15,792
So yeah, I love this topic.

626
00:39:15,802 --> 00:39:16,662
It's a couple things.

627
00:39:16,662 --> 00:39:21,572
One is, again, most of the things that
I've put in here come from trial and

628
00:39:21,582 --> 00:39:28,542
error experience of what business leaders
and humans do and don't talk, right?

629
00:39:28,782 --> 00:39:29,492
And.

630
00:39:30,052 --> 00:39:36,492
And one of those, particularly in
business, it can be for not for all people

631
00:39:36,492 --> 00:39:37,742
in business and not for all leaders.

632
00:39:37,742 --> 00:39:43,992
But the empathy is can for certain
people feel quite squishy on.

633
00:39:44,032 --> 00:39:48,282
And that's because oftentimes that
we've conflated that there's only one

634
00:39:48,282 --> 00:39:52,282
kind of empathy when, in fact, there's
actually multiple kinds of empathy and

635
00:39:52,857 --> 00:39:57,717
Most of the time what we're, what we
think we mean with empathy is emotional

636
00:39:57,727 --> 00:40:00,807
empathy, which is understanding
what somebody else is feeling.

637
00:40:01,417 --> 00:40:07,177
And that feels very touchy feely
to particularly, task oriented

638
00:40:07,177 --> 00:40:08,237
leaders and things like that.

639
00:40:08,237 --> 00:40:12,707
Not everybody's wired towards
relationships and that's okay by the way.

640
00:40:14,397 --> 00:40:18,477
But one thing that can help to
understand is Hey you don't.

641
00:40:18,737 --> 00:40:20,847
Control how somebody
feels about something.

642
00:40:20,977 --> 00:40:21,967
You do not.

643
00:40:22,447 --> 00:40:23,497
And they do.

644
00:40:23,767 --> 00:40:25,922
And that's On that.

645
00:40:25,992 --> 00:40:29,852
And so not only does it feel
uncomfortable for certain people

646
00:40:29,852 --> 00:40:31,402
because of how they're wired.

647
00:40:31,472 --> 00:40:36,302
I don't feel comfortable on this
feeling thing on another level.

648
00:40:37,172 --> 00:40:40,102
Other people may resist it because
they're like, I don't feel comfortable.

649
00:40:40,742 --> 00:40:43,312
I don't directly control
how they feel anyway.

650
00:40:43,312 --> 00:40:46,402
So again, what's for some folks that
maybe they're efficiency oriented.

651
00:40:46,512 --> 00:40:51,512
Like I don't, even if I wanted to know
or could know, I can't, there's, it's

652
00:40:51,522 --> 00:40:53,832
not a thing I can directly affect.

653
00:40:54,492 --> 00:40:57,502
And there's lots of people who
actually don't really understand

654
00:40:57,502 --> 00:40:58,672
what they're feeling either.

655
00:40:59,112 --> 00:41:02,352
Like admitting their own
emotions to themselves.

656
00:41:02,402 --> 00:41:03,252
So it's complex.

657
00:41:03,892 --> 00:41:07,982
And this is where understanding that
there's another avenue towards empathy

658
00:41:07,992 --> 00:41:12,102
that can be really important and that's
cognitive empathy, which is understanding

659
00:41:12,102 --> 00:41:13,722
what somebody else is thinking.

660
00:41:14,392 --> 00:41:18,862
And there's a huge amount of support
for the fact that many of our feelings

661
00:41:19,472 --> 00:41:22,272
are directly tied to our thoughts.

662
00:41:22,672 --> 00:41:26,722
And so if we can back up and
go, whoo, this person is super

663
00:41:26,722 --> 00:41:30,852
passionate about this, or, ooh, this
person's really angry about this.

664
00:41:31,312 --> 00:41:32,552
And instead of going.

665
00:41:33,117 --> 00:41:36,957
I don't understand the feeling, which
you may not, you're probably not going

666
00:41:36,957 --> 00:41:41,857
to understand it unless you start
to say what must they be thinking?

667
00:41:41,867 --> 00:41:47,377
Or what could they be thinking that would
produce that anger would produce that

668
00:41:47,387 --> 00:41:49,987
doubt that would produce that resistance?

669
00:41:50,567 --> 00:41:51,087
And.

670
00:41:51,632 --> 00:41:52,382
You're right.

671
00:41:52,482 --> 00:41:56,892
The smart, capable, good thing is
that most people want to be it.

672
00:41:57,322 --> 00:42:00,472
And I chose the phrasing in the
book quite consciously that most

673
00:42:00,472 --> 00:42:02,732
people want to be seen that way.

674
00:42:03,202 --> 00:42:06,742
Because I've spent enough years in
therapy to know that not everybody's

675
00:42:06,742 --> 00:42:09,412
convinced all the time that they
are smart, capable, or good.

676
00:42:10,532 --> 00:42:11,362
Most of us.

677
00:42:11,942 --> 00:42:15,802
The majority of us, I would say
even the Elon Musks of the world

678
00:42:16,292 --> 00:42:20,262
want to be seen as smart, capable
and good to their in group, right?

679
00:42:20,312 --> 00:42:21,772
Or to other people.

680
00:42:22,102 --> 00:42:27,112
And so they're very happy to be seen as
not good by a huge group of other people

681
00:42:27,142 --> 00:42:33,362
as long as they feel validated by the
people whose opinion they want or need.

682
00:42:33,982 --> 00:42:36,892
And so this is where.

683
00:42:37,732 --> 00:42:42,472
Again, putting that lens on just
saying again, you don't even have to

684
00:42:42,472 --> 00:42:46,602
believe I suggest that you do, though,
because still going to leak out.

685
00:42:46,602 --> 00:42:49,882
If you don't have to, though, but
at least take that step of saying,

686
00:42:50,712 --> 00:42:52,832
okay, let's just thought exercise.

687
00:42:52,882 --> 00:42:54,032
If this person.

688
00:42:54,567 --> 00:42:57,387
We're actually currently
smart, capable and good.

689
00:42:57,757 --> 00:42:59,567
Why would this make sense?

690
00:43:00,517 --> 00:43:04,467
Because people do follow
their own internal logic.

691
00:43:04,477 --> 00:43:08,177
It may not be logical to
you, but it is to them.

692
00:43:08,517 --> 00:43:14,587
We do not, as humans, operate outside
of internal logic for very long.

693
00:43:14,727 --> 00:43:15,347
We don't.

694
00:43:15,557 --> 00:43:18,197
We are very internally consistent people.

695
00:43:19,087 --> 00:43:21,697
Even if we're consistently
inconsistent, right?

696
00:43:21,697 --> 00:43:24,867
It's like Dan Ariely's like
predictably irrational.

697
00:43:25,787 --> 00:43:30,117
We in fact are predictably irrational, but
we're irrational in very predictable ways.

698
00:43:30,187 --> 00:43:33,447
We are logical and very illogical ways.

699
00:43:33,897 --> 00:43:35,707
And that's what we can count on.

700
00:43:35,707 --> 00:43:39,832
So if you can marry those two things
together, that people will operate.

701
00:43:40,072 --> 00:43:41,962
Long term on their own internal logic.

702
00:43:41,962 --> 00:43:47,432
So there is one there's some kind of
mental model or collection of models and

703
00:43:47,432 --> 00:43:50,102
beliefs and frameworks and worldview.

704
00:43:50,482 --> 00:43:54,692
Absolutely, which I love, by the way,
favorite topic and that people want

705
00:43:54,692 --> 00:43:56,382
to be seen as smart, capable and good.

706
00:43:56,392 --> 00:43:59,262
Then you can start to
solve for the worldview.

707
00:43:59,922 --> 00:44:04,262
You can say, I can see this reaction,
if I assume they're smart, capable, and

708
00:44:04,262 --> 00:44:09,722
good, given what I know of the world,
and of people, and even this person.

709
00:44:09,972 --> 00:44:11,222
What would have produced that?

710
00:44:11,472 --> 00:44:13,862
And if you can't figure it out guess what?

711
00:44:13,902 --> 00:44:17,792
It is a beautiful point, to
your point, Nola, of becoming

712
00:44:17,812 --> 00:44:19,812
curious, and asking them.

713
00:44:20,832 --> 00:44:22,502
What makes you say that?

714
00:44:22,602 --> 00:44:25,062
What is, what is it that you are?

715
00:44:25,562 --> 00:44:28,062
That are, what is it
that you are angry about?

716
00:44:28,102 --> 00:44:31,042
Again, not why that can be
a very triggering question.

717
00:44:31,042 --> 00:44:32,122
Like, why are you so angry?

718
00:44:32,122 --> 00:44:33,042
It's just what is it?

719
00:44:33,042 --> 00:44:38,122
Because that can start to really
focus the question on, you could, if

720
00:44:38,132 --> 00:44:41,492
someone said that to you with your
resistance to coming back to work or

721
00:44:41,492 --> 00:44:45,432
that to that implementation of that
software system what is it about this?

722
00:44:45,452 --> 00:44:47,652
That is, is so frustrating to you.

723
00:44:47,652 --> 00:44:50,252
You're like, it makes my job harder.

724
00:44:52,602 --> 00:44:55,482
It does again, like we operate.

725
00:44:56,117 --> 00:44:58,937
From these worldviews with
the assumption that people see

726
00:44:58,937 --> 00:45:00,107
the world the same way we do.

727
00:45:00,397 --> 00:45:05,867
And if we stop and for just even a split
second and go of course, not everybody

728
00:45:05,867 --> 00:45:12,277
does or can, but our brain saves brain
cells by assuming that everybody does.

729
00:45:12,907 --> 00:45:18,757
And so sometimes we have to create
those moments either in conversation

730
00:45:18,767 --> 00:45:28,407
or by presenting this case for change
that again, people can recognize.

731
00:45:29,437 --> 00:45:33,197
In that moment, because it doesn't
take long to really say because I

732
00:45:33,197 --> 00:45:35,117
believe this is true, and this is true.

733
00:45:35,677 --> 00:45:38,727
That's why I believe this is the
approach that's going to produce this

734
00:45:38,727 --> 00:45:45,227
outcome that doesn't take much to help
people identify where the friction

735
00:45:45,227 --> 00:45:50,537
is, where the alignment is, where
there's opportunity and where there is.

736
00:45:51,517 --> 00:45:55,317
And where there isn't and regardless,
what I have seen is that being able

737
00:45:55,317 --> 00:46:00,727
to do that and have that discussion
allows people to civilly agree to

738
00:46:00,727 --> 00:46:05,587
disagree and say, oh, I understand.

739
00:46:06,137 --> 00:46:09,297
I just don't agree and then
it's up to the leadership.

740
00:46:09,297 --> 00:46:11,887
It's up to you as an individual
working with that leadership

741
00:46:12,117 --> 00:46:13,647
to decide what that actually.

742
00:46:14,047 --> 00:46:14,807
Means for you.

743
00:46:14,967 --> 00:46:18,707
And like you did, you said how can I
reframe it so that I can do something

744
00:46:18,707 --> 00:46:20,417
with this and be helpful towards it?

745
00:46:21,037 --> 00:46:25,487
But that's how that response is
always gonna be personal to Yeah, and

746
00:46:25,487 --> 00:46:29,047
fundamentally, I think that's really
where the whole return to office thing

747
00:46:29,057 --> 00:46:32,097
breaks down is it's related to identity.

748
00:46:32,137 --> 00:46:35,177
So these leaders who want to
bring people back, that's how

749
00:46:35,177 --> 00:46:36,737
they've always been successful.

750
00:46:36,987 --> 00:46:40,297
If they tell the story of their
careers, it's told in person

751
00:46:40,297 --> 00:46:41,877
because that was their reality.

752
00:46:42,247 --> 00:46:45,907
You would think that they want to mentor
people, they want to train people,

753
00:46:45,907 --> 00:46:51,457
they, and to do that in the frame of
referenced in to their history, they

754
00:46:51,457 --> 00:46:54,847
can't do that if the people are at home.

755
00:46:55,347 --> 00:46:58,667
Like their reason for being successful
is fundamentally related to the

756
00:46:58,667 --> 00:47:02,027
fact that they were in person
seeing people in different contexts.

757
00:47:02,337 --> 00:47:07,717
And so they have to reframe their
whole entire understanding of their

758
00:47:07,717 --> 00:47:13,237
career success in a way that's really
uncomfortable for a lot of people.

759
00:47:14,677 --> 00:47:23,117
Yes, and that also means that in many
cases, it reveals to them in a way

760
00:47:23,117 --> 00:47:27,897
they may not want to face quickly
or ever how they were viewing the

761
00:47:27,907 --> 00:47:29,977
people who work with them, right?

762
00:47:30,007 --> 00:47:33,347
Meaning they were looking them as workers.

763
00:47:34,497 --> 00:47:40,937
Not as people because again, as a person
to put the persuaders paradox back in

764
00:47:40,937 --> 00:47:47,247
play as a person, they wouldn't want
to be seen as just a worker either.

765
00:47:47,247 --> 00:47:48,397
They would resist it.

766
00:47:48,787 --> 00:47:52,277
And so sometimes it's having that
perspective of just it's where

767
00:47:52,277 --> 00:47:55,427
that classic 90s 80s and 90s.

768
00:47:55,427 --> 00:47:56,637
It started in Toyota.

769
00:47:56,637 --> 00:47:57,767
The five wise.

770
00:47:58,832 --> 00:48:01,672
comes into play of just
keep, it isn't always five.

771
00:48:01,672 --> 00:48:06,412
Sometimes it's three, sometimes it's
seven, but keep going down until

772
00:48:07,112 --> 00:48:09,372
you, it's a, or even share Lockian.

773
00:48:09,382 --> 00:48:12,382
The only thing that's
left is what must be true.

774
00:48:12,762 --> 00:48:18,292
And sometimes that's uncomfortable and but
if you're really trying to get a change

775
00:48:18,292 --> 00:48:22,352
to be successful, that's the work, right?

776
00:48:22,392 --> 00:48:31,647
And sometimes the work is going to be
This realization that you are putting the

777
00:48:31,647 --> 00:48:37,207
needs of the company ahead of the needs
of your employees and that may go against

778
00:48:37,207 --> 00:48:41,147
what you have said Your values are right.

779
00:48:41,147 --> 00:48:43,697
And so that's where the
trust breaks down, right?

780
00:48:43,927 --> 00:48:48,057
Because it's the story
doesn't hang together, right?

781
00:48:48,097 --> 00:48:48,607
Exactly.

782
00:48:48,617 --> 00:48:49,507
It doesn't it.

783
00:48:49,567 --> 00:48:50,347
It doesn't.

784
00:48:50,597 --> 00:48:52,437
It is not recognizably true.

785
00:48:52,677 --> 00:48:58,127
So that's what you know, for me this idea
of these recognizable truths apply both

786
00:48:58,177 --> 00:49:04,567
to individual pieces and parts of this
story, but also to the story as a whole,

787
00:49:04,807 --> 00:49:09,507
because sometimes, we can hear something
that just completely, Like just shifts

788
00:49:09,517 --> 00:49:14,337
everything, and it just rewires the
rest of a story that's already in play.

789
00:49:14,367 --> 00:49:21,137
I would say we've seen that this week
in Kamala Harris's response on Call

790
00:49:21,137 --> 00:49:24,857
Her Daddy when she said there are many
women who do not aspire to be humble.

791
00:49:25,687 --> 00:49:29,987
And for many women, I'm not saying
all, for many women, that was

792
00:49:29,987 --> 00:49:31,667
one of those recognizable truths.

793
00:49:31,667 --> 00:49:33,817
All of a sudden they heard
the words and they're like.

794
00:49:34,462 --> 00:49:39,472
I recognize that as true and I
recognize that as true about me.

795
00:49:39,732 --> 00:49:44,832
And so what it did was it
crystallized for a group of people.

796
00:49:45,792 --> 00:49:47,982
This is why this something didn't work.

797
00:49:47,992 --> 00:49:53,372
This is why, some like something about
the story I'm being told about my

798
00:49:53,372 --> 00:49:57,432
role as a woman doesn't work because
I've just heard a recognizable truth.

799
00:49:58,102 --> 00:50:01,632
And then to your point, Nola,
sometimes it's the whole story, right?

800
00:50:01,672 --> 00:50:05,692
It's just it's, these
things don't track together.

801
00:50:05,742 --> 00:50:09,312
And that's, I, sorry to get all
Aristotelian on it, but it's it's not

802
00:50:09,312 --> 00:50:15,767
a, it's not a valid argument, meaning
A plus B does not equal C in this case.

803
00:50:15,767 --> 00:50:21,245
And And if that's verifiably true,
based on your audience's experience, if

804
00:50:21,245 --> 00:50:26,735
your audience cannot validate it based
on their own experience, first test.

805
00:50:26,735 --> 00:50:26,750
Test.

806
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:28,040
Dead in the water.

807
00:50:28,300 --> 00:50:32,010
And so this is why so much of the
approach that I'm talking about in this

808
00:50:32,010 --> 00:50:39,800
book really relies on those underlying,
sometimes implicit, unspoken, in

809
00:50:39,830 --> 00:50:45,990
practice principles that are guiding
what the leaders do and team members do

810
00:50:46,350 --> 00:50:50,545
every day, because that is what we do.

811
00:50:50,975 --> 00:50:54,345
That is the first
validation of the change.

812
00:50:54,475 --> 00:50:58,145
The first yes, that always
has to pass is does it check?

813
00:50:58,535 --> 00:50:59,995
Does it check with my head?

814
00:51:00,005 --> 00:51:01,145
Does it make sense?

815
00:51:01,765 --> 00:51:03,575
And does it make sense?

816
00:51:03,595 --> 00:51:04,765
Does it feel right?

817
00:51:05,185 --> 00:51:08,865
And the ding, it has to be,
I don't hear an audible ding.

818
00:51:08,915 --> 00:51:14,855
When I hear a truth, I feel it like
in, in my chest, it's not audible.

819
00:51:14,855 --> 00:51:16,525
It's a feeling right.

820
00:51:16,915 --> 00:51:20,465
And that actually happened once where it
was something that somebody was dealing

821
00:51:20,465 --> 00:51:23,965
with an insurance claim and somebody told
me something that they shouldn't have told

822
00:51:23,965 --> 00:51:26,175
me and I'm like, Oh, this is the truth.

823
00:51:26,255 --> 00:51:27,305
This is what you're trying to do.

824
00:51:27,315 --> 00:51:31,505
And I got a 34, 000 settlement out of
them because I recognized their truth.

825
00:51:32,735 --> 00:51:38,705
Yes, we there's a lot as I'm, as
I am learning right now, cause

826
00:51:38,705 --> 00:51:40,575
I, I started amidst all of this.

827
00:51:40,575 --> 00:51:42,275
I started a doctorate program this summer.

828
00:51:42,605 --> 00:51:43,615
We have.

829
00:51:44,555 --> 00:51:50,465
I think overlooked in particularly Western
and Western culture and in business,

830
00:51:52,495 --> 00:51:54,665
the other forms of.

831
00:51:55,415 --> 00:52:04,775
Knowledge, wisdom and learning that
we have and you know it what is

832
00:52:04,775 --> 00:52:11,225
intriguing to me in this environment
of incredible complexity and incredible

833
00:52:11,225 --> 00:52:16,159
change is how important it is.

834
00:52:16,430 --> 00:52:18,090
To be able to

835
00:52:21,530 --> 00:52:26,710
not just articulate quickly why
something what something is, why is it

836
00:52:26,710 --> 00:52:30,730
important and what and be able to give
people that information that allows

837
00:52:30,740 --> 00:52:36,580
them to do that to do a very quick
check, but to be able to recognize.

838
00:52:37,825 --> 00:52:45,155
That actually nothing that happens up here
happens without the gut check happening

839
00:52:45,165 --> 00:52:54,855
first, and I don't care how B2B or how
engineering or tech or science focused,

840
00:52:55,355 --> 00:53:02,045
an organization is it's, it's proposal
review committee is or whatever that

841
00:53:02,055 --> 00:53:04,485
data, we're going to trust the data.

842
00:53:06,390 --> 00:53:11,390
That either aligns with what we've
seen and experienced ourselves, or in

843
00:53:11,390 --> 00:53:16,570
rare cases, we will trust it because
it either comes from a source that

844
00:53:16,570 --> 00:53:21,380
we really trust, or again, that it
finally unlocks, even in a way that

845
00:53:21,380 --> 00:53:23,950
we weren't expecting, something else.

846
00:53:24,930 --> 00:53:27,430
One of my best examples of that, and
I know we're running out of time,

847
00:53:27,430 --> 00:53:30,370
but one of my favorite examples
of that was with with Jay Baer.

848
00:53:30,380 --> 00:53:34,680
So Jay Baer is a customer service
and customer experience expert.

849
00:53:34,700 --> 00:53:38,930
And two books ago, three books ago, he
wrote a book called Hug Your Haters.

850
00:53:39,590 --> 00:53:43,540
And it started with, he started with,
by, he started it by doing research.

851
00:53:43,550 --> 00:53:48,070
So he started it by doing,
by gathering information on.

852
00:53:48,505 --> 00:53:52,545
Like, how often you need to respond
to the haters online and what the

853
00:53:52,545 --> 00:53:54,165
expectations were and all of that.

854
00:53:54,655 --> 00:54:00,005
And to Jay's eternal credit, his
original hypothesis about it, I don't

855
00:54:00,005 --> 00:54:01,695
even remember what it was disproved.

856
00:54:02,215 --> 00:54:07,605
And what he discovered in the data was
not that was that the haters were actually

857
00:54:07,895 --> 00:54:10,155
deeply passionate about the brand.

858
00:54:10,475 --> 00:54:14,325
And when they got angry, it's
because they cared so much.

859
00:54:14,835 --> 00:54:21,095
And so this is one of those places where,
when it suddenly, for him, what that

860
00:54:21,105 --> 00:54:24,765
created was, and I remember we worked
on the messaging around this, which was,

861
00:54:25,270 --> 00:54:28,860
That it wasn't that the haters weren't
the problem, ignoring them was the

862
00:54:28,860 --> 00:54:34,490
problem, because they were so passionate
about the brand, the company, etc.

863
00:54:34,990 --> 00:54:41,520
That hearing that disconfirming data is
what unlocked for him why haters could

864
00:54:41,530 --> 00:54:43,780
have, like, why they carried such power.

865
00:54:43,780 --> 00:54:48,590
It's because the people who I would
submit, it's because that passion.

866
00:54:48,925 --> 00:54:54,835
For the brand or for the way things should
be was so intense that people felt it

867
00:54:55,245 --> 00:54:59,315
even through, the austere online world.

868
00:55:00,155 --> 00:55:04,295
Yeah, I actually built my customer
service career around difficult

869
00:55:04,315 --> 00:55:07,645
callers and dealing with people that
other people couldn't deal with.

870
00:55:08,105 --> 00:55:08,475
And.

871
00:55:08,860 --> 00:55:13,540
That was how I was successful because
I listened to them, because honestly,

872
00:55:13,550 --> 00:55:17,270
the majority of the time is they had
a vision of what could be, and they

873
00:55:17,270 --> 00:55:20,840
were actually trying to help you get
there, if only you would pay attention.

874
00:55:21,380 --> 00:55:21,810
Yes.

875
00:55:22,070 --> 00:55:22,560
Yes.

876
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:25,790
And that actually is what's happening
with the whole return to office thing

877
00:55:25,790 --> 00:55:28,050
is, it's not that people object to.

878
00:55:28,980 --> 00:55:31,040
And it's not that they don't want to work.

879
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:33,020
It's not that they refuse
to go into the office.

880
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:34,950
It's because they don't feel heard.

881
00:55:35,580 --> 00:55:37,480
That's the really big
thing that's happened.

882
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:38,570
That's right.

883
00:55:38,620 --> 00:55:39,430
And they are.

884
00:55:40,250 --> 00:55:43,280
And it's and when the leadership
says we don't feel heard either.

885
00:55:43,590 --> 00:55:45,740
This is where I would urge people to say,

886
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:51,890
because are you asking people to hear
something that you haven't actually said?

887
00:55:52,420 --> 00:55:54,850
And that is how could they hear that?

888
00:55:55,080 --> 00:56:00,700
And so this is why so often it really
is so important to it's, to say what

889
00:56:00,700 --> 00:56:05,690
they can't unhear, you have to say
what they can't hear first, right?

890
00:56:05,690 --> 00:56:07,410
In order for that to be the case.

891
00:56:07,780 --> 00:56:14,030
And that sometimes means digging deep
into really understanding what is driving

892
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:18,780
why you believe a particular change
is actually the right thing to do.

893
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:21,190
And then discovering what in that.

894
00:56:21,515 --> 00:56:25,075
And then deciding what does that
mean for either how you change the

895
00:56:25,075 --> 00:56:29,585
message or how you're going about
making the change in the first place.

896
00:56:31,615 --> 00:56:34,275
All right we should wrap it up
because we are over time at this

897
00:56:34,275 --> 00:56:36,235
point, but thank you so much.

898
00:56:36,245 --> 00:56:37,965
It's always lovely to chat with you.

899
00:56:38,065 --> 00:56:40,825
I did find the book immensely helpful.

900
00:56:40,825 --> 00:56:44,615
I think in my review, I actually
wrote immediately useful because.

901
00:56:45,005 --> 00:56:46,545
I was actually applying it.

902
00:56:46,635 --> 00:56:49,345
If I, if you go back through my
social, you'll actually see I was

903
00:56:49,345 --> 00:56:51,305
weaving, smart, capable, and good.

904
00:56:51,305 --> 00:56:54,505
And I was actually weaving it
into things I was already writing.

905
00:56:54,715 --> 00:56:55,435
Oh, I love that.

906
00:56:56,105 --> 00:56:57,645
Yeah, it was, is really cool.

907
00:56:57,645 --> 00:56:59,555
And so definitely the book is out today.

908
00:56:59,555 --> 00:57:01,345
I checked my mailbox to
see if it had arrived.

909
00:57:01,345 --> 00:57:02,285
It hadn't arrived yet.

910
00:57:02,695 --> 00:57:04,015
But it's already hitting the charts.

911
00:57:04,025 --> 00:57:07,665
So if you get the book, Say what
they can on here by Tamsyn Webster,

912
00:57:07,925 --> 00:57:09,625
write a review for her on Amazon.

913
00:57:10,115 --> 00:57:13,445
And we want the next book in the series
because it's helped me to this point.

914
00:57:14,825 --> 00:57:15,495
You got to keep going.

915
00:57:15,495 --> 00:57:18,825
No, thank you so much.

916
00:57:18,825 --> 00:57:20,875
It's so generous to
share your time with me.

917
00:57:20,875 --> 00:57:23,405
And I'm just very grateful
to be able to have such an

918
00:57:23,415 --> 00:57:24,795
engaging conversation with you.

919
00:57:25,235 --> 00:57:26,115
Oh, thank you so much.

920
00:57:26,115 --> 00:57:26,765
I appreciate it.

921
00:57:27,405 --> 00:57:44,804
I'll see you next time.