Podcasting as Leadership

0:17 Find yourself in. Thank you for joining the Hope and Possibilities podcast. I'm Nola Simon, and today I actually wanna talk about podcasting itself and why I am actually not doing guest episodes this year. Podcasting is actually. A real responsibility. It's actually interesting how it's developed. My understanding of it has developed since I started. Podcasting is not really just a marketing tool. Tool, it's a form of leadership. It's cultural stewardship. It's an act of discern discernment.

0:58 Podcasting is powerful because it creates culture and. That is an interesting thing. I've learned a lot since 2021 about podcasting. It's got an ethical responsibility that we really don't talk about an awful lot, and you can actually see that because a lot of podcasts have really become enmeshed in politics. Right. So that's, that's kind of an interesting development. Journalism is changing an awful lot. You know, it's, it's really not just TV interviews and magazine articles and newspaper interviews.

1:39 It's the podcasting that gets a lot of times the longest interviews with some of these politicians. And that has been something that's, an interesting trend to follow. So I'm not necessarily interested in politics, but I am interested in how we choose our guests and the messages we choose to amplify and how we decide whose voice gets a platform. Podcasting is often framed as casual. It's, it's a vibe, right? And I actually like conversational podcasts. I don't like to script, I don't necessarily provide questions ahead of time.

2:22 I tend to focus on a topic and ask the guests if they're comfortable about talking in general, a about a topic that, you know, pertains to their expertise. But I, I don't like to necessarily script everything out, right. I have done episodes where, you know, we've done practice sessions beforehand for people who haven't necessarily interviewed an awful lot. I have done edits. I've asked I've worked with guests who've actually wanted to approve edits to make sure that they're comfortable because it is representing them professionally and I understand that. So especially if you are new to being interviewed it's really about developing that comfort level now.

3:04 I also have learned over the years that I wanna limit the number of times that I do that for people because it's an awful lot of work. And I found a, a cheat code basically in terms of how much editing you have to do. If you interview professional speakers and authors who have a very specific message, you have to do less editing. So that's. In itself a, a learning curve that I've, I've discovered there've been learnings that I've had. You know, those, those authors, those professional speakers, they come sometimes with. Things that make them comfortable but aren't necessarily great for audience engagement. I had somebody on the podcast, he was a keynote speaker, he is a professor.

3:50 He came with slides and it was an entire lecture. I. And essentially he was doing a podcast tour and that's what made him comfortable to be able to do so. Essentially, he was delivering that same type of lecture to every podcast that he was on, which was not what I was expecting. The whole presentation basically felt like I was just an audience member rather than an engaged host who is actually having a conversation. That I didn't love. I had another guest who started checking his phone in the middle of the podcast interview. We were on video and he still felt comfortable enough to present as distracted.

4:32 I debated whether to edit it out, but on the whole, I decided I'm gonna leave that in because that represents you. And if you are comfortable doing that publicly. I mean, I felt disrespected, but again that represents who you are and who you feel you want to represent yourself to. My audience. So those are kind of explanations of, of what I've learned is sometimes you want to.

5:14 You always wanna present your, your guest in a positive light and make sure that you know that the whole experience is comfortable for them. But if they make specific choices, you as a host have the discernment to be able to decide whether what they're communicating actually. It needs to remain in the episode or not, right? I watch a lot of people I don't know that people understand that the way that I choose my guests is more it, it develops over years. Like I follow people. I have a really huge number of people that I follow on LinkedIn and I followed them for years and.

6:02 It's about developing trust in their messages, making sure that the way that they show up is not performative. That there there's consistency in the work that they do, making sure that they really believe what their writing and how that actually is valuable. And that's not to say that, you know, people haven't evolved over time, right? Like I've invest, I've invited guests. Where, you know, now that they're, some of them are retiring, some of them changed business models completely. The, the original podcast episode doesn't speak to who they are right now. I had one guy who actually changed corporations since similar job, but different corporation I think.

6:47 And like I've gone back to, to people to say hi, like. Do you wanna delete your original episode like it served its purpose? You don't owe me anything if this is not something that you wanna represent professionally anymore. Do you want to delete that? And I'm sorry people have said no because it captures the moment in time. And it's not necessarily something that they want to advertise, but they're comfortable with having it represent them professionally, which I feel is beneficial.

7:30 So I vet podcast guests a lot. I almost never accept cold pitches. I have, I have done interviews with people I don't necessarily know well, but usually they've been a referral from somebody else who's been a guest. So. The friend or the friend, the people that you respect will grab my attention because you as a podcast guest, you've already, I've already vetted you. Now I don't almost get it right. There was somebody that I had known, I'd actually worked in the same company with them. I'd followed their, their journey that kind of started as like their own independent entrepreneurial journey at the same time I did and. The episode itself went fine.

8:12 Everything up until the episode was great. And then after the episode was published, she didn't share it. She didn't comment, she didn't respond to any emails. It, she basically just ghost to me. Now we're still connected. She hasn't blocked me on anything. She just doesn't engage and it's strange. I don't really actually understand it, but, you know, I had a guest, she just didn't wanna have an ongoing relationship. Right. And that's really something that I, as a, like a relationship manager have always leaned into is like, I, my podcast guests, anybody who's I've worked with, you've been assigned to me, have had an ongoing relationship with, you know, you're, you're, you're mine, right?

8:58 I've committed to a relationship with you, so you respect me, I respect you. And you know, at any point you can engage with that relationship that we have. Like honestly, there's still people that I work with 10, 15 years ago who sometimes come back to me. Right. And that's great. I love that. Right? I, I love people who will have the ongoing conversations and, and who understand the, the value of, of engaging with me. Not everybody's gonna want to do that, right? So that's where if I've got you know, the majority of people I've interviewed who, who are willing to do that, I can really kind of write off the, the ones who, who don't, which would be one really and, and call that a win, right?

9:54 So sometimes I don't get it right either. I, I wanted to mention a woman that I, I read her book. I followed her online significantly for a fair amount of time. She has a fantastic history. She's really well in. She's got an incredible network. Like your network is so incredibly deep and you know, she seems to be really respected and really valued. I invited her to come on the podcast and while I was actually waiting for her to actually decide whether she wanted to do that, I checked her Twitter 'cause I, I followed her on LinkedIn mostly and, and engaged with her there. And then I realized that she was openly supporting JK Rowlings opinions and visions on trans people.

10:41 And it stopped my quilt. Now she declined because she has her own podcast in the way that she chooses to present herself and to build that network and leverage it. She doesn't need to appear on other people's podcasts, so she doesn't actually do guest spots, which, you know, fair play. I mean, you've got a deep enough network then you should own that. I think that's, that's fabulous that you're at that point. I, I, I. It aspire to really have that type of deep network. And so she declined and I felt like I dodged a bullet because I didn't do enough due diligence. And even though I'd followed her for probably 18 months, I'd never looked at her Twitter because, well, I stay off Twitter as much as I can.

11:28 I haven't closed the account because sometimes it's useful for stuff like this. But, that's really important. So you know, are you showing up on every platform as you are, you as a host, when you're doing all that research, are you checking all of the public places that these people show up and looking to make sure that the way they present themselves the values, even though they seem aligned on one platform, when they start looking at other topics that are adjacent or even unrelated to the way that they. They work professionally. Are those all in line with the values that you as a host want to present to the world?

12:09 What are you giving a platform to? And so, as I said, she declined for her own reasons, but I felt I dodged a bullet and I really kind of, you start to wonder if you've done enough due diligence and that puts me back. And also. I myself have come across a couple of different topics where the guests have actually asked me to delete things within the podcast and I deleted them, but I wanted to discuss them and the reasons why I've done that. So there was one time that I told a guest a story. It is a true story of my own work experience. I worked with somebody who.

12:50 He was very much an in-person person. He was the type of person who wanted to be in the office five days a week. He was very visible. He was the type of person who had the standup desk, and he stood all day, every day. And he was extremely tall, very I mean, he, he, he was attention getting. And so people noticed when he was in the office and that form of visibility. I think he perceived that to be very key to his professional success, and I, of course was very different. I was campaigning hard for work from home, flexibility, all of the things that I do now. And so I was coming into the office and I would sit near him on the days that I was in the office and the entire time that I was in the office, he would glare at me.

13:38 For eight hours a day, I would catch him just glaring at me during the day. It was very uncomfortable. It actually made, going into the office unpleasant. It's what people would call a microaggression. He never did anything violent. He never did. He just made the experience of being in his presence incredibly uncomfortable. There was one time I was invited to go to a high performers lunch and, and. He attended as well and he glared at me the entire time because he even presented the fact that I was invited to the high performance lunch. He didn't think I deserved to be there. And the way that it ended up you know, the lunch wrapped up, people went to the bathroom.

14:20 I ended up being alone with like the, the A VP and the, the vp, and we walked back to the office together. Again, it wasn't planned, it was just. Serendipity, that whole magical water cooler moment. And I walked back into the office with them and he was livid. You could tell. So anyways, I was telling this guest about this, this story, and the way the the story ends up is well, COVID happened. And obviously work from home became mandatory and nobody was in the office. And during that period of time, and I dunno, the full story, he killed himself and I told the guests the story and she was shocked because, is that my story to tell?

15:11 Well, it is my story to tell because it happened, it impacted my experience at work. It. Really underlined my awareness that the stories that people tell themselves about the way that work happens and can happen really is really deeply embedded in identity and how that informs the way that their understanding of the future of work will develop. And honestly. Within that context, it's not just thought leadership, it's not just interesting, it's not just academic.

15:55 It's actually affecting people's lives. And in his case, and again, I don't know his full story because I left the company and I, I wasn't actually in contact with him at all. It was life or death. So. These things matter right now. Her reaction was actually really interesting because it made me pull back and assess how you tell those stories and who owns those stories and what type of permission do you need to be able to tell those stories. So I deleted it, but I, I still think that that story deserves to be told because it has.

16:43 Some deep issues connected to it that are worth exploring. So how do you tell it in a way that's not performative in a way that's emotionally resonant, that conveys respect and, and fosters trust? Right? But doesn't. Sensationalized doesn't put him in a negative light. It's a challenging, challenging, searching story for me to, to talk about. And even still, you can hear my hesitation as I'm, as I'm telling it.

17:24 Right. Another episode where I was talking to somebody who, as an expert on neurodivergence and belonging at work. And so we were talking about AI and how ai is really trained on the dominant messaging that's happened. Like how LLMs are trained is it's, you know, what's been published, what's been published, what's, so the majority of times if you've got a male dominated field, what's being published, what's being made public, what's being recorded has all been. Predominantly white, cis male. And so that messaging that's happening in a lot of different AI and how the LLMs are trained is, is really kind of biased and not capturing, you know, the experiences of people who are suppressed and have never been published.

18:20 Right. So it's, it's women, it's people of color, it's marginalized communities. It's, you know, anybody that industry and media has not felt deserved a platform before. So what does that mean? So I was telling her that in my opinion, that what that means is AI will become, AI that's trained on that will become ubiquitous. And so anybody who has that sort of perception, you're going to sort of blend into what AI is because that's how the LLM has really been trained is on that world. Experience that, that point of view. So anybody who hasn't been published, so like that, marginalized community, women whatever community has not been dominantly documented, and therefore that documentation is not available to train an LLM, you'll have the ability to stand out because you'll be unique.

19:18 You are not gonna blend into the, the messaging that's coming from AI because your experience has never been available to be stripped and trained. Used to train. And she told me that she thought that that was a thing that we should actually not talk about at that moment because. When a dominant community becomes threatened and they feel threatened, violence normally ensues. So what does violence mean? It's dangerous, right? So they, and they could mean like. A very generalized, they could retaliate to what does retaliation at work look like and what does retaliation in society look like?

20:07 So again, these are unintended consequences. So the, the AI has been trained on the voices of the dominance, which means that the people who weren't never dominant, those voices are gonna be unique. So that retaliation. To suppress those unique voices could become more extreme. So I, I think it, I think she's right. I think that is a risk, but literally, I don't know that not talking about it is the way to go. Right. I think you just have to be very cautious and, and look at the ethics and how we want to use ai knowing the.

20:51 The risks. Again, it's not academic. It's not just nice to have, it's not just thought leadership. It's not just a thought exercise. It's how this then shapes culture and influences how people treat each other and how we pay attention and who we are ignore, who we pay attention to, who we erase and who. Benefits from the way AI is used and embedded into workflows and society. Right? Those are all really important things to talk about.

21:34 So podcasting is pr, people do book tours. That's, that's really the way that I found an awful lot of my guests. They wanna amplify a book that they've, they've produced. So it's a PR tour, but it's not just a PR tour, it's part journalism. It's part pr, but it's. It's really a hybrid of storytelling, publicity, responsibility, and it carries real stakes because podcasting gets picked up by media, especially if you are somebody who has an elevated profile. Look at the Liam Payne podcast that he did with Logan Paul.

22:14 Look at the Malcolm Gladwell podcast that he did with Steven Bartlett, where after like an hour and a half, he gets tired and he starts talking about work from home and the importance of actually working in person. And do you really want to spend your life working in your bedroom, in your pajamas? And what kind of life does that give you? And that went viral, hopefully worldwide. Liam, that podcast, he was, I I, I, I've refused to watch the entire thing. So I've seen clips, he, he, he seemed to be intoxicated. He, he seemed incredibly vulnerable during it. And as a host, I would never have published that podcast because I don't think that.

23:02 The way that he showed up that particular day, he was making good decisions. I don't think that he was thinking long term about the impact of what he said, how that would ha affect his relationships, how that would affect his public persona, how that would affect his mental health. I don't think he understood. The repercussions that that podcast would actually have and the fact that that podcast is still live. I don't respect that.

23:42 He was obviously in a lot of pain from the clips that I've seen. And I don't think that's censorship. I think that's care. So podcasting requires a duty of care, a willingness to slow down, to reflect, to hold complexity. You know, the, the microphone is powerful, interviews are powerful. But that ability to edit that ability to, to look at something and say, if I care for you as a person, I can't allow you to go on the record. Saying what you just said. I think that that's powerful, right?

24:24 So thought leadership is not academic. It's not just branding. It really has an impact, and I think it should be treated seriously. It's not just a let's dash this off and get to the next episode. You have to consider that what we norm normalize. What we amplify, what we ignore has a real consequence. When it's recorded, it gets repeated. It gets spun into something else. It gets clipped, it gets reshared and it builds a narrative. And especially when you add in something like AI where you can't necessarily control that narrative or hallucinations actually happen and you know that's going to become something different.

25:07 You know, I, I think that's, that's something that we have to really look at. So, and there's another story I wanted to mention as well. I was scoping at somebody somebody actually who. Has had a long-term relationship with two women who've appeared on my podcast that I deeply respect, and I really liked a lot of what he was saying. He, again, was an author, he was a speaker, he's a trainer. You know, I liked an awful lot of what he was was saying. And so he actually reviewed one of my episodes. He actually gave me really glowing reviews. Really enjoyed that.

25:48 You know, I gave him some reviews on his, it was just kind of like basic relationship building, right? And then he started writing about a topic that I recognized was very related to one of my guests, actually the guest that he wrote the review for. And I saw one post that he did and, and. I tagged her, and again, I was just like, hi, I don't think you've actually been formally introduced. I just think you have a lot in common that it might be beneficial for you to know each other. And I, I tagged her on the post. And so the intention was to, to really connect somebody who, you know, I thought they had things in common that they might spark you know, mutual recognition.

26:35 It felt generous, natural, I was. The intention, and again, attention always doesn't meet. The outcome was to network in a positive way, right? So he did not respond that way. He did not think that I had positive intent. He privately messaged me and. It was the most passive aggressive email or DM that I've received. He wasn't thanking me. He wasn't clarifying. He was scolding me. He accused me of playing LinkedIn police and said that I should have asked him privately first. I. For one, you've already commented publicly on that podcast, you know who she is because I have the review to prove it.

27:22 And his message was framed to putting me into place, giving me the benefit of the doubt that I didn't necessarily mean to shame him, which of course I didn't. I really felt condescending and controlling, and he wanted to put me in my place. Now. Personally, what I felt after that was that he was planning to write something similar and he felt that my connecting him to her. He, he said I was a tattletale.

28:04 The thing is like nothing is new, like you don't own these concepts. And I mean, however he came to that, even if it happened to be a similar idea concept, I mean, her, her message honestly is, is not really completely brand new either. Like it's how you combine your expertise with those concepts, the stories that you tell. How it all can be unique, right? So like what's unique, what's, what's creative is how you present your own personal view of these concepts, right? So it might not be a completely brand new concept, but your perception of it and your, your explanation of it could be completely unique in, in different messaging, right?

28:49 He really reacted badly and I basically said, you know, I'm sorry I. I obviously intended to connect people that I felt had similar things in common, and I didn't mean to offend, I'm sorry you were offended. But for me, it wasn't just about that message, it was the fact that there was a gap between who I imagined him to be and who he turned out to be. I felt like I'd misjudged him like I missed something that was very obvious. In hindsight, I started paying Costa attention to the word of mouth effect and how any tight net network, regardless of gender, can really create reputational shields.

29:33 So had I overlooked behavior as his, that was uncomfortable just because of who he was connected to. And and how does that word of mouth effect mask bias? So that's, that's another story, obviously. I mean, I, I still connected to him. I don't engage on anything he writes. He doesn't really engage with me anymore. I haven't blocked him. He hasn't blocked me. It was completely professional the way we left it, but it, it made me think that I need to do more due diligence and I need to be more discerning about how I invite.

30:15 So every guest, every question, every edit, every silence, it all builds culture, right? So podcasting is leadership. It's not just the kind of leadership with applause or status though. It's the kind of with ethics and accountability and an understanding that whatever we publish and make public has an impact and it. It could be a temporary impact, but it could also be a long standing impact. I mean, that Logan Paul interview that Liam Paint did that was what, 2018 and he's dead and people are still talking about it. So it has a way of taking on a life of its own that you can't necessarily control and you have to be really cautious with it.

31:08 Right? So who are you trusting? I came across a podcast host the other day who had 200 episodes that he'd fed the transcripts into a you know, a custom GPT and is making that custom. GPT. He's selling access to it so that you can ask his guests anything. I'm sorry. Do you own that expertise now? Like what kind of consent did you get? That floored me. I mean, I like transcripts. They're great for SEO. They're great for pulling quotes. They're great for learning what worked in an interview. It didn't, you know, what questions did you ask? That seemed to really open it up there. I used, honestly, I listen back to episodes and I use transcripts to analyze my own performance, how I can prove as a host, but how do you respect that?

32:00 Intellectual property, right? And who are you giving the mic to and why? What norms are you reinforcing? Even passively? Are you protecting your audience or just your reputation, right? So you have to consider what's going out to your audience as well, right? And who gets the benefit of your discernment. So my goal is always to. Be trustworthy. How do I foster more trust? It's not about going viral. You know, so far I have not gone viral with my podcast. It's not really the goal though. The goal is really to support conversation and talk about from all kinds of different perspectives what the future of work is going to be.

32:47 And I call it a love letter because. I am optimistic that we can craft work that's better and we are going to make choices that's going to be make work healthier and more sustainable, and we can co-create that, right? So what does that discussion look like, right? I'm not always gonna get it right, but if I'm being very self-aware and I'm very much paying attention to the nuance. And how I'm inviting people and how I'm interviewing them and how those interviews live on and, and how they interact and they tell a, a larger story.

33:30 That's really where the responsibility is, and that's real leadership. Right. I wanna talk a little bit about sponsorship. So I'm my own sponsor. I would love to have a sponsor, but finding a company or a brand that can match the level of care, concern, ethical alignment I hold is incredibly challenging. Agendas very wildly. There's one guy that I know who has a sponsorship with an oil company and he he, it's about heart leadership and how to lead from, from people. And his sponsor is an oil company.

34:14 He's got some interesting concepts of how values and ethics work is all I'm gonna say. So you have to make sure that the values align and my vision for the future. Is often controversial. It's pushing boundaries that many are not necessarily ready to embrace. I'd love to have a sponsor who shares the commitment to integrating courage, but I have no interest in being governed, filtered, or having my opinion throttle to fit a marketing narrative or corporate comfort zone. I'm choosing to sustain the work independently so I can hold the mic with full freedom and full responsibility.

34:54 So that doesn't mean that I'm not ready to talk. If somebody is listening to this and you're considering what that future of work looks like, and you think that we could have a partnership, then talk to me if you believe your brand can meet the hard bar. If you're ready to support courageous, honest leadership without compromising or controlling the message, pitch me. DM me, email me nola@nolasimon.com. You can find it, anything on the website as well. I'm interested in a company like that. What does that look like? I have no idea. We'd have to co-create it together, right?

35:37 I think that sponsorship can be an amazing thing, and podcasting can be an amazing thing, but you have to be incredibly careful with the influence you're wielding. And that's my commitment to you is how do you, how do you lead in a way that. It has integrity. And that's my, my commitment to my guests, to me, my company, you know, any client that I work with, my family.

36:18 That's, that's who I wanna be. So anyways, thank you for listening and again, I'm always interested in people's response to. My ramblings and you know, if you feel like talking or giving me feedback or even a review or rating, hey, you know, the, those are, are hard to come by. That would be great. Thank you so much.

37:13 Find yourself in.