Community with Rosie Sherry

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Here we go, one, two, three, four,
five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten.

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Watch yourself in orbit.

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Thank you so much for joining me.

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I'm Nola Simon.

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I'm the host of Highway
Remote Center of Excellence.

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Say that three times fast.

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Today we have a guest from the UK.

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Where exactly are you from, Rosie?

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I'm in Brighton in the
UK, the south coast.

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Ah, I'm familiar with the beaches.

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I haven't been there,
but I've heard of them.

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Um, anyways, our guest is
Rosie Sherry, and she is an

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expert in all things community.

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She started ministry and
testing, what, back in 2007?

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And so that has grown to its
community of thousands of users, and

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it brings in millions of dollars.

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And in addition, she also runs another
community called Rosyland, which is

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dedicated to all things community.

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So Rosie, when I was exploring
communities, and I keep continuing

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to explore communities because
I haven't figured it out myself.

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Um, she was the expert
that I came across online.

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Literally, I think it was
more Twitter initially.

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And then more linked in now.

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Um, but she, um, has a way
of explaining community, um,

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that nobody else does, I find.

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And I found her approach really relatable.

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Um, you know, you started ministry
testing because you had 2 kids

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at home and it was a way that you
could start a business, right?

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Did I get that correct?

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Yeah.

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And it's grown since then.

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So, um, and recently you had to step back.

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You had initially headed it
off to a CEO and then recently

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you stepped back in as CEO.

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Is that correct?

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Yeah.

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So could you tell us more about
your journey with community

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and where that started?

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Yeah, I mean, um, so I guess I've been
in tech since around 2000, um, the year

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2000, which is a bit scary to, to say,
um, I started off as a software tester.

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I got like my first job as a software
tester, hence ministry testing that came

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along, um, probably seven years later.

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Um, But as, as I was working in tech,
um, I started going to local meetups in

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Brighton, um, it was quite an active,
like, geeky type scene, um, and I was

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just inspired about all the things
that were happening, and I kind of

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stumbled across the idea of community,
and, um, I enjoyed the local community

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aspect and as the web, um, was kind
of grown, it was kind of like web 2.

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0 era.

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For me there was like a lot of kind
of excitement around all of that.

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And yeah, mostly like once I discovered
the idea of community, I could, I was

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like, you know, that became my thing.

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I just couldn't, couldn't forget.

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What community, you know, the idea
of community to me, it just, it

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just stuck with me and I've never
been able to let it go since.

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Um, so since I've discovered that and like
community has always been like how I start

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things and, or how I think about things.

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And I started a local meetup.

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It was a woman in tech.

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It was a meetup.

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called Brighton Girl Geek Dinners and
that was like my first step into like

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actually doing community things and
that that kind of opened my eyes to how

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special community can be and like Um, I
ran it for probably a couple of years,

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and it was like, always, um, fully, fully
booked out, and I met loads of people,

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and, and, you know, still in contact with
many of them, like, you know, even like

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20 years on, and it's like, you know,
that was kind of, I guess like, as a

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introverted style person that I am, that
was like a real kind of eye opener for me.

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So, yeah, after that I kind of.

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Uh, was looking for an excuse to
apply community to the ideas I

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had or the work I wanted to do.

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Um, and at that time as well, there
were like no community jobs really.

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It just wasn't, wasn't, I think.

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Yeah, it was sort of like a
job that, that came later.

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Like, this is the type of job that,
you know, when you were a kid, you

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didn't imagine it could be a real job.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Um, I remember seeing like
job ads at the time, like for

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Yelp and community managers.

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So there were a few startups that kind
of had started to adopt that role,

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but you know, that me and Brighton,
those jobs in San Francisco was

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like never, never going to happen.

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Right.

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I know how that feels.

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I'm from Canada.

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Nothing ever interesting
ever happens in Canada.

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Um, yeah, so I just like, uh, was
always looking for opportunities

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to do my own community thing.

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Um, I ran a co working space for a while
and then, and then I also decided to start

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ministry of testing because I felt like
there could, there should be a better

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community for software testers, which at
the time there wasn't really much at all.

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Um, nothing that I really approved of.

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So I kind of used it as an
excuse just to start something.

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I had no real Um, idea that it would
turn into something, but it was just

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something I wanted to try, play with,
see where it goes, um, and yeah, I

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guess that's what, partly what I'm,
I've discovered that I'm good at is

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just like, I just do stuff and then
figure stuff out and, uh, either suffer

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the consequences or suffer with, with,
with the success along the way as well.

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Yeah, no, that's very interesting.

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Um, So in terms of administrative
testing that that's the part of your

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work that I actually don't relate
to at all because I don't have that

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kind of software background at all.

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Um, so what's, what's
the purpose of community?

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It's to share expertise and and
you offer courses as well, right?

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Yeah, so I would call it
like a community of practice.

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So it's essentially for software
testing professionals or

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quality assurance engineers, you
know, they go by a few names.

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And it's a space to gather and to
hopefully learn more and advance.

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People's careers and we do conferences.

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So at the moment we do one
conference a year in Brighton.

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Yes, you just did that though right?

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Yeah, yeah, because I've seen
things online people really

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complimenting, you know how engaging
it was and just appreciating

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the, like the in person touch.

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So that's an interesting aspect of Of
community, because we got away from

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it, obviously, during the pandemic.

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Right.

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So are people really
excited about in person?

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Do you think that's.

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And aspect of community
that's going to develop.

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I think so.

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And I think, um, so pre pandemic we,
it was a bit crazy to be honest, but

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we had, as, as ministry of testing
grew, we, we had like nine conferences

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across the world in the, in 2019, which,
which feels like really crazy now.

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But post pandemic we've gone back down
to just one conference and the idea

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at the moment is just to have that one
conference a year and put much more effort

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into it and hopefully make it bigger
than what it's, what it's been before.

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So, um, is there an
appetite for it, like 100%?

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It's like people, yeah,
I think people need it.

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I don't think they're realising how
much they need it until they show up.

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And it's once they show up that they're
like, ah, this is exactly what I needed,

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this is like the break I needed from work,
or this is just like reconnecting with

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people, or getting to meet people in real
life that they've connected with online.

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And yeah, I think we've
just forgotten that.

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And, you know, partly, you know, a
big part of that is the pandemic,

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but, um, when people go, they, they
don't regret going in my opinion,

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you know, especially, um, this past
conference, which I think we've kind

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of, um, leveled up the experience, um,
and got amazing feedback, um, from it.

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And, um, it was a product manager who
attended, um, um, And she, she shared on

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LinkedIn, I can't remember her name off
the top of my head, but she was sharing

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on LinkedIn how, just like, how amazing it
felt and how, um, kind of jealous of FOMO

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she had that software testers had this
space to gather and she didn't feel like,

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uh, The product managers had that same
kind of space with that community feel.

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Um, where everyone's literally
like, uh, supporting each other.

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And like the speakers have,
have grown up in the community.

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Oh, so you bring in people who
are actually members of the

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community to actually speak.

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That's cool.

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Yeah, yeah, I mean, like, all our effort
is like, all our, all our kind of like,

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I guess you, you know, you call it
marketing effort, but all our effort is

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focused on the community and uplifting
the community and trying to get them

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to like publish their first article.

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Or do their first talk or, you know,
speak at a conference or, you know,

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all our effort is like community first.

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It's, it's the people in the community.

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We don't, we don't like go
outside seeking other speakers.

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Um, you know, we don't do keynote talks.

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We've never done keynote talks.

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For example, it was just like every
talk is a talk from, from the community.

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Um, So you're really focusing
on the relationships that build

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within the community themselves.

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Yeah.

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And it really makes a difference
because people know these people and

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they can identify with them, right?

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And they can see, oh, I know that person.

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I've spoken to him or we've been in touch.

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He's never spoken and
now he's up on stage.

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And like the vibe that that gives
as well is that you have like people

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like cheering them on, or if they're
struggling, you can really see that the

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crowd is like supporting them rather
than like criticizing them, for example.

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So the online connection is
really fueling the in person.

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Yeah, yeah.

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So like, I guess like some
conferences happen once a year for us.

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The conference is just
part of the community.

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So really we're like
planning all year round.

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Um, we, you know, we publish content
all year round, um, and all year round,

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we're looking for new speakers and those
sparks was, you know, connections that,

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or, you know, uh, information or trends
that might be of value to the community.

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And we're trying to get, get better
at spotting it and then bringing

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it to the conference as like
the icing on the cake, I guess.

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So you mentioned before we started
recording that you're a deep introvert.

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Uh, so how does an
introvert plan a conference?

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Uh, because I would assume that a
lot of people in that, that type of

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profession tend to be introverts.

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I could be completely wrong
there, but that's my perception.

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So how, how does a conference
for introverts in person differ

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from the standard conference
that's planned by extroverts?

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Uh, yeah, I say introverted, um, these
days I'd probably use neurodivergent,

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you know, being neurodiverse.

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Um, but, you know, whatever it is,
it's like, you know, you know, people

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struggle in, you know, In real life
situations and say, how do you make it

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feel more more comfortable for them.

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And part of it again is going back
to community and feeling welcomed

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and supported and things like that.

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And another part is creating a variety
of activities or meetups or events

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that are happening so that, you know,
hopefully there's something for everybody.

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Um, but like a big part of it.

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You know, I feel, you know, sometimes
I feel like I harp on a lot about

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community, but it's like so, so many
of the people arrive and they're like

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really nervous and, um, but like the
moment they step in, they're kind

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of welcomed by, by the community or
there's, uh, there's this culture of

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like everyone's kind of Uh, checking
in on other people or people standing

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alone, and they might go up to them
and say hello or just checking on them.

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I saw you write on thread
something about that.

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Somebody had mentioned the fact
that they were nervous that a

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community just standing around, or
they were at a conference and they

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were just standing around and just
having that awkward conversation.

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It was like the worst experience ever.

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And you're like, just.

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Being generous enough to, to go up
to somebody and say hi, that's the

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most generous thing that you could
do to, for somebody at a group,

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if you see them standing alone.

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Yeah, and it's part of the culture so
it's like everyone is literally doing it

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because, because they experience it and
they see how, How great it can feel and

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how it kind of brings that belonging.

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And it just like naturally
ends up extending.

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And it's not just like, oh, let's,
you know, this is what we want to see.

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It's like that's kind of
happened over the years.

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And like when, you know, we
kind of try to communicate it.

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And then run up to it, we have the
host on stage who also communicates it.

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So it's like we're trying to really
embed this culture of like, we're

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all here to support each other, and
we're all actually quite friendly,

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or we're all struggling a bit.

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And, you know, it's just like,

223
00:14:45,664 --> 00:14:50,544
yeah, for whatever reason, it's just like,
it's become a big part of what Ministry

224
00:14:50,564 --> 00:14:52,184
of Testing and Test Bash is all about.

225
00:14:53,149 --> 00:14:58,858
And it's pretty, pretty amazing to
see that, to be honest, because I do

226
00:14:58,858 --> 00:15:02,589
go to other conferences and like no
one ever comes up to me, you know,

227
00:15:02,649 --> 00:15:06,289
like, you know, other tech conferences
and it's just like, sometimes I just

228
00:15:06,289 --> 00:15:08,199
like wonder why, why am I even here?

229
00:15:10,229 --> 00:15:16,989
So it's, um, yeah, I guess there's the,
there's a Pac Man model as well, which

230
00:15:16,989 --> 00:15:22,199
is one way they talk about it, so it's
like, um, it's like when you're having

231
00:15:22,199 --> 00:15:28,308
a conversation with other people, they
always leave a gap like Pac Man's mouth.

232
00:15:28,664 --> 00:15:33,184
So that others can come in, stand
in and listen, and maybe join in.

233
00:15:33,184 --> 00:15:37,284
So people have naturally started
doing that as well, as like, you know,

234
00:15:37,453 --> 00:15:39,284
trying to, trying to welcome people in.

235
00:15:39,664 --> 00:15:39,944
Right.

236
00:15:39,953 --> 00:15:44,964
You, you want to leave windows and
doors open so that people can feel,

237
00:15:45,373 --> 00:15:47,214
see entrances into the conversation.

238
00:15:47,224 --> 00:15:50,294
I've been part of groups like that before
and it's like, you have no idea when

239
00:15:50,294 --> 00:15:51,574
these guys are going to stop talking.

240
00:15:53,214 --> 00:15:55,474
It's like, hey, I don't
know how to do this.

241
00:15:56,034 --> 00:16:00,214
Yeah, I, uh, one of my first employee
resource group, uh, meetings that I

242
00:16:00,214 --> 00:16:04,814
ever went to, I, I remember walking
in and I'd never done one of those and

243
00:16:04,814 --> 00:16:08,744
it was a whole bunch of executives and
I just, I didn't know who to talk to,

244
00:16:08,753 --> 00:16:11,993
even though I'd worked for the company
for over probably 15 years at that

245
00:16:11,993 --> 00:16:16,924
point, the majority of people from my
division weren't usually the ones who

246
00:16:16,924 --> 00:16:19,204
attended those types of events, right?

247
00:16:19,244 --> 00:16:23,293
And so, um, I, I went in and
I, I didn't know what to do.

248
00:16:23,293 --> 00:16:24,624
So I went to my table.

249
00:16:25,059 --> 00:16:29,159
Because we were assigned tables and
I just kind of sat thinking that, you

250
00:16:29,159 --> 00:16:32,209
know, once dinner started, at least
that way, it would be kind of natural.

251
00:16:32,209 --> 00:16:33,639
I'd have somebody on either side of me.

252
00:16:33,639 --> 00:16:37,699
At least conversation would start
to float the table and I just.

253
00:16:38,429 --> 00:16:39,139
sat there by myself.

254
00:16:39,169 --> 00:16:44,319
And this woman that I used to actually
work for, she was my skip level.

255
00:16:44,319 --> 00:16:48,348
So my boss's boss, she saw me at the
table and she came over and gave me this

256
00:16:48,368 --> 00:16:50,979
big hug and introduced me to people.

257
00:16:50,979 --> 00:16:52,949
And then people started
rising at the table.

258
00:16:52,959 --> 00:16:55,189
So she started introducing me
to people around the table.

259
00:16:55,189 --> 00:16:58,808
And honestly, without her breaking
that ice, I was just, I was so

260
00:16:58,808 --> 00:17:02,079
grateful that it's like, Oh, okay.

261
00:17:02,108 --> 00:17:03,989
Now that I've been
introduced, I feel better.

262
00:17:03,989 --> 00:17:06,979
And like, she just made me
feel like I had a place there.

263
00:17:06,998 --> 00:17:07,348
Right.

264
00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:09,508
So, yeah.

265
00:17:09,789 --> 00:17:10,569
I can relate.

266
00:17:11,029 --> 00:17:11,799
I can relate.

267
00:17:13,299 --> 00:17:16,888
We've also done things like, um,
for quite a few years now, we

268
00:17:16,888 --> 00:17:18,579
do lean coffee in the morning.

269
00:17:19,009 --> 00:17:21,029
So there's like a few tables set aside.

270
00:17:21,608 --> 00:17:25,948
And lean coffee is basically like
people writing down in post it notes

271
00:17:26,368 --> 00:17:27,809
things that they want to talk about.

272
00:17:28,249 --> 00:17:32,558
And then people float on them around the
table and they just start talking about

273
00:17:32,558 --> 00:17:34,558
those things that they've written down.

274
00:17:35,239 --> 00:17:36,769
So it's like a small group thing.

275
00:17:37,244 --> 00:17:43,594
And so things like that really help,
um, to give people, I guess, another

276
00:17:43,604 --> 00:17:47,653
option of meeting people and having
conversations with people, perhaps

277
00:17:47,864 --> 00:17:50,463
without the small talk, because
like a lot of people struggle.

278
00:17:52,784 --> 00:17:54,164
So do you run that around the world?

279
00:17:54,194 --> 00:17:57,804
So not just in Brighton, but like,
because your community is global, right?

280
00:17:58,044 --> 00:18:01,504
Like, do you have like,
the community is global?

281
00:18:01,583 --> 00:18:04,093
Yeah, yeah, the conference is
just in Brighton at the moment.

282
00:18:05,344 --> 00:18:09,554
But we do have like localized
meetups, like kind of community

283
00:18:09,573 --> 00:18:11,074
volunteer led as well.

284
00:18:11,304 --> 00:18:13,414
I think it's about 40
of them at the moment.

285
00:18:14,804 --> 00:18:18,214
It was like 100 pre
pandemic, but obviously.

286
00:18:18,569 --> 00:18:19,659
Pandemic does that.

287
00:18:19,659 --> 00:18:24,119
Yeah, we do a lot of stuff online.

288
00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:28,399
We do monthly virtual events as well.

289
00:18:28,879 --> 00:18:35,598
Again, people who speak on those
all come from the community.

290
00:18:35,598 --> 00:18:41,999
So literally our source of voices
is 100 percent from the community.

291
00:18:42,849 --> 00:18:43,469
Very cool.

292
00:18:44,109 --> 00:18:46,739
And one thing I like about, um,
the way you position your work,

293
00:18:46,749 --> 00:18:51,259
especially for Rosalind, um, is you
are the source for all community.

294
00:18:51,259 --> 00:18:54,308
You research so, uh, you
do all the research so that

295
00:18:54,309 --> 00:18:55,379
other people don't have to.

296
00:18:55,738 --> 00:18:57,059
So I think that's genius.

297
00:18:57,549 --> 00:19:04,099
Um, what, what trends are you seeing
right now that you think are either

298
00:19:04,118 --> 00:19:06,369
helpful or hindering community?

299
00:19:08,969 --> 00:19:12,019
Uh, yeah, I guess like
AI is an obvious one.

300
00:19:12,339 --> 00:19:13,089
I think it's

301
00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:17,519
probably hindering more at the moment.

302
00:19:17,948 --> 00:19:20,158
Yeah, I saw, I saw a
post you wrote on that.

303
00:19:20,334 --> 00:19:27,314
Um, you know, it's a nightmare like with
content and like, if you have a community

304
00:19:27,314 --> 00:19:31,593
where anyone can like submit content or
write something, a lot of communities are

305
00:19:31,594 --> 00:19:38,023
really like struggling with how to deal
with that because it's just like, um, so

306
00:19:38,023 --> 00:19:40,944
much, I guess I would call it AI spam.

307
00:19:40,953 --> 00:19:46,214
It's like, we had spam before,
but now it's like, you know, 100x

308
00:19:46,234 --> 00:19:48,344
like what we, what used to exist.

309
00:19:48,374 --> 00:19:48,684
And.

310
00:19:49,234 --> 00:19:55,414
It's, you know, 100x harder to spot it or
to figure out how to, how to deal with it.

311
00:19:55,874 --> 00:19:56,174
Right.

312
00:19:56,954 --> 00:20:01,914
So are people like using it to
post and comment or like both?

313
00:20:01,914 --> 00:20:02,444
Yeah.

314
00:20:02,734 --> 00:20:03,084
Really?

315
00:20:03,093 --> 00:20:03,973
Yeah, yeah.

316
00:20:03,974 --> 00:20:09,629
So what's the, what's the point
of Using AI to comment, because, I

317
00:20:09,629 --> 00:20:14,449
mean, personally for me, comments
are how I express my opinion, how I

318
00:20:14,449 --> 00:20:16,729
express my value, to share expertise.

319
00:20:17,609 --> 00:20:22,569
To filter that through AI, I don't
know that I would get value from

320
00:20:22,569 --> 00:20:24,429
that, for me personally, right?

321
00:20:24,429 --> 00:20:25,979
Like, what's the point of even commenting?

322
00:20:26,129 --> 00:20:26,749
I don't get it.

323
00:20:28,129 --> 00:20:28,639
I don't know.

324
00:20:29,099 --> 00:20:33,334
I mean, there's tools now that will,
like, auto Also create, uh, comments

325
00:20:33,724 --> 00:20:35,164
for you, like on social, isn't there?

326
00:20:35,624 --> 00:20:40,114
So it's like, you know, so you can
leave so many comments and they look

327
00:20:40,143 --> 00:20:41,963
genuine, but they're not really genuine.

328
00:20:42,024 --> 00:20:46,324
Or they, they read the posts that you're
commenting on to try to sound authentic.

329
00:20:46,854 --> 00:20:49,174
And it's just like, well,
yeah, I just don't get it.

330
00:20:49,174 --> 00:20:50,054
It was like, what's the point?

331
00:20:50,113 --> 00:20:50,443
Right.

332
00:20:50,484 --> 00:20:54,404
And, you know, places like product
don't have a lot of like AI spam.

333
00:20:54,504 --> 00:20:58,264
People always trying to play the
game, always trying to, you know, you

334
00:20:58,264 --> 00:20:59,964
know, ends up becoming not really bad.

335
00:21:00,534 --> 00:21:04,024
community it ends up becoming about
trying to get as many upvotes so that

336
00:21:04,364 --> 00:21:12,004
then that might somehow turn into um
You know more click throughs or more

337
00:21:12,014 --> 00:21:18,144
sales or more awareness of the product
Right and like sometimes comments can

338
00:21:18,174 --> 00:21:23,069
influence the algorithm Whether that's
true or not, that's, you know, generally

339
00:21:23,069 --> 00:21:26,899
like what they say is that the more
comments, you know, the more chance

340
00:21:26,919 --> 00:21:29,388
it has of being featured and stuff.

341
00:21:29,388 --> 00:21:32,299
So people will play the game and
they'll use AI to support that.

342
00:21:32,598 --> 00:21:32,848
Yeah.

343
00:21:32,888 --> 00:21:40,589
And it's just like, um, Yes, it's just
not great and I did work at Indie Hackers

344
00:21:40,869 --> 00:21:46,549
I led the community there for a couple
of years and that was kind of pre AI hype

345
00:21:46,619 --> 00:21:53,838
but like they suffered a ton from from
spam in general and And I saw like as AI

346
00:21:53,838 --> 00:21:59,319
was becoming popular as like a lot of the
comments on the posts were AI generated

347
00:21:59,989 --> 00:22:01,239
And it's hard to deal with, right?

348
00:22:01,239 --> 00:22:05,088
It's just like, as a community person,
you don't want to have to deal with that.

349
00:22:05,169 --> 00:22:05,489
Right.

350
00:22:05,529 --> 00:22:10,568
But, um, and, and, yeah, I
mean, it causes extra work for

351
00:22:10,568 --> 00:22:11,559
anyone who's trying to run it.

352
00:22:12,659 --> 00:22:12,869
Right.

353
00:22:12,899 --> 00:22:15,519
Um, probably work that
they don't want to do.

354
00:22:16,169 --> 00:22:17,678
So, how are you managing that?

355
00:22:17,678 --> 00:22:21,683
Like, are you, like, deleting
posts that are obvious AI?

356
00:22:21,683 --> 00:22:22,308
I

357
00:22:24,489 --> 00:22:25,559
don't actually have that problem.

358
00:22:25,559 --> 00:22:30,249
It's just like, it's
a problem like we see.

359
00:22:30,684 --> 00:22:31,323
Yeah.

360
00:22:31,614 --> 00:22:31,764
Okay.

361
00:22:32,964 --> 00:22:36,814
So we get minimal spam at
Ministry of Testing, but there

362
00:22:36,814 --> 00:22:38,594
is some, but not a huge amount.

363
00:22:39,044 --> 00:22:41,254
Do you think that's actually
because of the connection?

364
00:22:42,884 --> 00:22:43,254
Yeah.

365
00:22:44,274 --> 00:22:44,664
Cool.

366
00:22:45,024 --> 00:22:45,844
I love that.

367
00:22:47,083 --> 00:22:51,774
And because we don't, we don't go
out trying to, uh, create fake games.

368
00:22:51,774 --> 00:22:58,033
We don't go out trying to create fake
hype or, uh, there's no real motivation

369
00:22:58,033 --> 00:23:03,294
for people or reward for people who
do come in and comment on stuff.

370
00:23:05,079 --> 00:23:09,129
We use a discourse as a forum and
they're quite good at like auto

371
00:23:09,129 --> 00:23:14,519
fragging like suspicious behavior
Okay, but you know, we make we get

372
00:23:14,519 --> 00:23:16,009
that maybe a couple times a week.

373
00:23:16,289 --> 00:23:18,969
It's no big deal to manage right?

374
00:23:18,969 --> 00:23:23,404
and A lot of that is because
we don't really focus on

375
00:23:23,404 --> 00:23:24,854
that kind of external growth.

376
00:23:24,884 --> 00:23:28,704
We're not, we're not like stressed
out about trying to, trying to get

377
00:23:28,704 --> 00:23:30,834
new people in and participate in.

378
00:23:30,834 --> 00:23:35,923
It's just like, the forum is just like
one part of our community strategy.

379
00:23:35,924 --> 00:23:37,124
It's not the community.

380
00:23:37,443 --> 00:23:44,094
It's like, um, I call it like the 80
20 rule of conversations and community.

381
00:23:44,714 --> 00:23:47,153
A lot, a lot of people think
of community as community.

382
00:23:47,424 --> 00:23:48,914
It's all about the conversation.

383
00:23:49,254 --> 00:23:52,314
It's like, let's talk and
have fun and blah, blah, blah.

384
00:23:52,544 --> 00:23:52,774
Right.

385
00:23:52,814 --> 00:23:58,614
But actually, constant conversation is
like really, really tiring and exhausting

386
00:23:58,614 --> 00:23:59,923
and people don't have time for that.

387
00:23:59,954 --> 00:24:00,214
Right.

388
00:24:00,823 --> 00:24:07,814
Um, so, um, the idea of like the 80
20 rule is like, well, 20 percent of

389
00:24:08,024 --> 00:24:11,674
community, um, should be conversations.

390
00:24:11,714 --> 00:24:14,764
And then the other 80% Is other stuff.

391
00:24:14,883 --> 00:24:20,244
So like our forum is maybe 20 percent of
our efforts and the other 80 percent are

392
00:24:20,684 --> 00:24:26,394
articles we publish, the conference we
run, courses we produce, you know, there's

393
00:24:27,043 --> 00:24:30,783
a whole list of other things that we do
that counts up for like the other 80%.

394
00:24:31,073 --> 00:24:31,343
Right.

395
00:24:31,683 --> 00:24:34,114
So there's actually action
in addition to conversation.

396
00:24:34,114 --> 00:24:34,623
Yeah.

397
00:24:34,704 --> 00:24:34,954
Right.

398
00:24:35,053 --> 00:24:35,524
Action.

399
00:24:35,914 --> 00:24:39,774
And that, that, that combination, like
people often join community because

400
00:24:39,774 --> 00:24:44,254
they're looking for, uh, not just
support, but they're actually looking

401
00:24:44,254 --> 00:24:46,414
for transformation of some sort.

402
00:24:47,304 --> 00:24:47,324
Yeah.

403
00:24:48,974 --> 00:24:49,334
Right.

404
00:24:49,344 --> 00:24:53,073
So if you're helping people achieve
goals that they have personally and

405
00:24:53,073 --> 00:25:00,094
professionally, then that's, is that the
key to, to really having community stick?

406
00:25:00,094 --> 00:25:00,533
Do you think?

407
00:25:01,994 --> 00:25:02,804
I think so.

408
00:25:03,314 --> 00:25:04,184
I really do.

409
00:25:04,214 --> 00:25:08,214
And like, It's, it's definitely
easier said than done, right?

410
00:25:08,224 --> 00:25:12,604
But like, at Ministry of Testing,
like, the goal is, uh, perhaps they

411
00:25:12,604 --> 00:25:16,244
want to stay on top of trends that are
happening, so that's something we're

412
00:25:16,314 --> 00:25:21,563
giving more focus on, and making it
easier for, for the community to, um,

413
00:25:21,593 --> 00:25:23,263
learn about trends that are happening.

414
00:25:23,754 --> 00:25:26,604
But like, another thing is,
a lot of people have a goal

415
00:25:26,814 --> 00:25:28,484
of being a speaker, right?

416
00:25:28,654 --> 00:25:30,174
Getting up on that stage.

417
00:25:30,593 --> 00:25:34,283
So we then design things
in to enable that.

418
00:25:34,829 --> 00:25:39,109
You know, whether it's a simple
encouragement of submitting to

419
00:25:39,109 --> 00:25:42,158
speak, you know, that's always
like a good first step, right?

420
00:25:42,479 --> 00:25:42,759
Right.

421
00:25:42,819 --> 00:25:48,429
Um, but then like another
thing is like a test, a test

422
00:25:48,459 --> 00:25:50,248
bash, which is our conference.

423
00:25:50,249 --> 00:25:57,508
Um, we've, we've done it since our
second ever conference, but like,

424
00:25:58,148 --> 00:26:02,098
I came up with this idea that like,
wouldn't it be great if anybody had

425
00:26:02,098 --> 00:26:05,368
the opportunity just to get up on
stage just to get a little bit of tape.

426
00:26:07,488 --> 00:26:10,479
So I came up with the idea
of doing 99 second talks at

427
00:26:10,479 --> 00:26:12,028
the end of a conference day.

428
00:26:12,639 --> 00:26:16,048
So anyone can stand in the queue,
get up on stage, talk about

429
00:26:16,128 --> 00:26:18,779
absolutely anything for 99 seconds.

430
00:26:19,129 --> 00:26:24,708
We have a buzzer, we set the timer,
they go, they talk, we buzz them

431
00:26:24,709 --> 00:26:27,488
if they go over the limit and
then the next person comes on.

432
00:26:27,859 --> 00:26:35,729
Okay, so you're on stage, you take the
action, you're fighting your like, you

433
00:26:35,729 --> 00:26:40,709
know, imposter syndrome, and you actually
get a sense of achievement, right?

434
00:26:41,319 --> 00:26:42,518
And do you get feedback?

435
00:26:42,518 --> 00:26:46,229
Like, do you, do you get feedback
for, for that speaking or?

436
00:26:47,889 --> 00:26:50,438
Well, you get the feedback from the
audience, and it's amazing, like

437
00:26:50,478 --> 00:26:51,918
everyone's like cheering them on.

438
00:26:52,149 --> 00:26:52,539
Okay.

439
00:26:53,569 --> 00:26:58,498
So there's that aspect, we record all the
talks, then it goes on to our website.

440
00:26:58,584 --> 00:27:02,544
So they can show it to other people.

441
00:27:02,814 --> 00:27:05,424
They have proof of their contribution.

442
00:27:06,274 --> 00:27:12,184
Um, and like, now at the moment, as we're
building our Ministry of Testing further,

443
00:27:12,244 --> 00:27:19,729
and we're kind of going increasingly down
the route of, um, just, Custom building

444
00:27:19,759 --> 00:27:25,069
everything pretty much apart from the
forum and then, you know, they get that

445
00:27:25,069 --> 00:27:28,749
talk on their profile page So now we're
introducing profile pages which kind

446
00:27:28,749 --> 00:27:34,958
of becomes a portfolio and it becomes
something more It gives you know, the

447
00:27:34,958 --> 00:27:40,198
sense of they are contributing to the
community right and here's here's a proof

448
00:27:40,198 --> 00:27:45,334
of it and Not quite like a Facebook page
or LinkedIn page, but you know, eventually

449
00:27:45,334 --> 00:27:46,994
one day it'll get there, but right.

450
00:27:47,414 --> 00:27:50,343
So is it externally
accessible, the profile page?

451
00:27:50,354 --> 00:27:50,794
Yeah.

452
00:27:50,794 --> 00:27:52,934
Oh, that's cool.

453
00:27:53,314 --> 00:27:57,074
So you can build it out and use it sort of
like as like a mini profile or portfolio.

454
00:27:58,124 --> 00:28:00,304
Yeah, more active you
are in the community.

455
00:28:01,004 --> 00:28:01,614
I like that.

456
00:28:01,634 --> 00:28:02,474
That's really cool.

457
00:28:06,784 --> 00:28:10,553
Sorry, a phrase I said the other day
is like, why should all the social

458
00:28:10,553 --> 00:28:12,124
networks have all the fun, right?

459
00:28:12,164 --> 00:28:19,369
So I'm trying to bring that in, but
into like, A community that's ours

460
00:28:19,369 --> 00:28:23,339
and it's a community that's not
owned by a big big tech company.

461
00:28:23,339 --> 00:28:25,349
We're just trying to build
something like really special

462
00:28:25,349 --> 00:28:29,799
and we've got we've got we've got
photos now we call them memories.

463
00:28:29,809 --> 00:28:32,519
So now people can post photos.

464
00:28:32,529 --> 00:28:34,968
So our conference that just passed.

465
00:28:35,088 --> 00:28:39,459
We've, you know, started building a
collection of photos that anyone can add.

466
00:28:40,079 --> 00:28:44,639
Um, And people can add memes as well,
so we're kind of building up this,

467
00:28:44,829 --> 00:28:48,329
you know, knowledge base, community
knowledge base, I would call it,

468
00:28:48,769 --> 00:28:50,979
and where everyone can contribute.

469
00:28:51,049 --> 00:28:51,369
Right.

470
00:28:51,429 --> 00:28:54,988
And, um, these ideas aren't new.

471
00:28:55,359 --> 00:28:55,599
Right.

472
00:28:55,599 --> 00:28:57,938
It's like, this memes, there's Instagram.

473
00:28:57,938 --> 00:28:58,198
Right.

474
00:28:58,199 --> 00:29:00,603
But it's like, actually, that's, that's.

475
00:29:00,834 --> 00:29:06,604
Let's do that within our community,
let's own the data, let's not let

476
00:29:06,694 --> 00:29:12,484
the big socials like, you know, be
forever in power, and let's, let's

477
00:29:12,484 --> 00:29:16,574
see what we can do for ourselves
and People are loving it, you know.

478
00:29:16,974 --> 00:29:20,884
We're doing it on a really small
budget, but like, we're trying.

479
00:29:21,354 --> 00:29:25,463
Yeah, it's amazing how happy GIFs
and memes can make people laugh.

480
00:29:27,144 --> 00:29:27,584
It's still true.

481
00:29:28,154 --> 00:29:28,966
It is still true.

482
00:29:28,966 --> 00:29:33,003
For all the people who try to tell
us that it's not cool, um, Gen Z,

483
00:29:33,213 --> 00:29:36,334
um, it still makes people laugh.

484
00:29:36,334 --> 00:29:37,024
It's very cool.

485
00:29:37,404 --> 00:29:37,924
Exactly.

486
00:29:38,194 --> 00:29:39,354
It's very cool, yeah.

487
00:29:39,684 --> 00:29:44,069
Um, it's actually interesting to think
about, The profile page in conjunction

488
00:29:44,069 --> 00:29:46,969
with AI, because one of the most
interesting uses I've come across

489
00:29:46,969 --> 00:29:49,659
with AI when I'm testing AI at all.

490
00:29:50,599 --> 00:29:53,429
And when I say test, I'm just using it.

491
00:29:54,778 --> 00:29:59,449
I literally start with a question of
tell me about an assignment and it pulls

492
00:29:59,478 --> 00:30:04,969
in anything that I've done on LinkedIn
or anything on my website and whatnot.

493
00:30:04,979 --> 00:30:05,179
Right?

494
00:30:05,219 --> 00:30:08,389
And if you don't recognize me,
that means that I don't know what

495
00:30:08,409 --> 00:30:10,719
data you're crawling, but it's not.

496
00:30:11,429 --> 00:30:14,329
The data that are like, it's
not the places that I am, right?

497
00:30:14,329 --> 00:30:19,079
So I like perplexity because
perplexity knows really who I am.

498
00:30:19,089 --> 00:30:21,719
So I'm like, okay, like, they
pick up my media, they pick up my

499
00:30:21,719 --> 00:30:24,959
podcast, they pick up LinkedIn,
they pick up all of this stuff.

500
00:30:24,969 --> 00:30:25,239
Right?

501
00:30:25,629 --> 00:30:31,259
So to have a publicly profile, like a
public profile page that that that's

502
00:30:31,289 --> 00:30:36,189
indexed by by search, that's actually
helping building out, um, yeah.

503
00:30:36,844 --> 00:30:37,874
Personal branding, right?

504
00:30:37,884 --> 00:30:40,544
And that's the interesting
thing about personal branding.

505
00:30:40,544 --> 00:30:43,134
Going forward is it's like,
it's not just what's on Google.

506
00:30:43,144 --> 00:30:44,544
It's not just what's on LinkedIn.

507
00:30:44,544 --> 00:30:48,064
It's not what you put on your resume,
but it's like, what is a I going

508
00:30:48,064 --> 00:30:52,164
to know about you and if you're not
a public person and you're not in

509
00:30:52,164 --> 00:30:53,614
media, you don't have a podcast.

510
00:30:54,044 --> 00:30:55,234
What does it know about you?

511
00:30:55,674 --> 00:30:57,704
And so that's kind of interesting.

512
00:30:57,724 --> 00:31:03,029
Like, For software developers who aren't
necessarily public people, how does

513
00:31:03,029 --> 00:31:08,609
that publicize them in a way that is
advantageous for the future of work?

514
00:31:09,589 --> 00:31:09,989
Yeah.

515
00:31:10,659 --> 00:31:11,589
And that's interesting, right?

516
00:31:11,619 --> 00:31:13,659
I think that's where AI can come.

517
00:31:14,039 --> 00:31:14,529
Yeah.

518
00:31:14,629 --> 00:31:18,429
Would be helpful in coming, rather
than like AI creating content for

519
00:31:18,629 --> 00:31:23,509
people, it's like actually AI,
you know, Making it easy to find

520
00:31:24,209 --> 00:31:25,999
information or data about people, right?

521
00:31:26,049 --> 00:31:29,529
Yeah, that discoverability, I
think, is what's interesting,

522
00:31:29,529 --> 00:31:31,039
and how does it connect dots?

523
00:31:31,049 --> 00:31:34,819
That's, that's what I'm interested
in, is because there's so much

524
00:31:34,819 --> 00:31:36,439
information in the world these days.

525
00:31:36,439 --> 00:31:38,399
It's like, how can you filter it?

526
00:31:38,429 --> 00:31:40,899
And Google search is being
weird lately, personally.

527
00:31:41,369 --> 00:31:43,989
Um, so AI is sort of interesting, too.

528
00:31:44,159 --> 00:31:46,009
But, anyways, that's just an aside.

529
00:31:46,759 --> 00:31:51,234
But I think, I think what you're doing Has
a lot of potential, is what I'm saying.

530
00:31:53,134 --> 00:31:54,124
I'm excited about it.

531
00:31:54,614 --> 00:31:58,434
The first time in a few years, I'm
actually like really excited about

532
00:31:58,494 --> 00:31:59,984
the work that we're doing again.

533
00:32:00,754 --> 00:32:04,734
It kind of felt like there was this
lull and first pandemic and then like,

534
00:32:05,164 --> 00:32:09,244
there's like community hype and then
like, and then like, it feels like

535
00:32:09,264 --> 00:32:11,064
everyone's now forgotten about community.

536
00:32:11,064 --> 00:32:12,464
It's no longer the hype anymore.

537
00:32:12,964 --> 00:32:17,994
And there's this lull in community, but
like the deeper, like I go into like

538
00:32:17,994 --> 00:32:20,904
trying to explore how to build community.

539
00:32:21,354 --> 00:32:26,854
Our way, from scratch, custom building
it, you know, going through all the pains

540
00:32:26,854 --> 00:32:29,384
that, that are involved in that as well.

541
00:32:29,464 --> 00:32:34,334
I just, uh, it feels exciting again
to be like, building something.

542
00:32:34,714 --> 00:32:35,014
Yeah.

543
00:32:35,134 --> 00:32:40,934
Um, yeah, something unique, I guess,
and trying to, trying to do something

544
00:32:40,934 --> 00:32:43,184
different, trying not to be scared.

545
00:32:43,904 --> 00:32:48,244
With, you know, like, people kind of
saying, oh, you're crazy for doing that

546
00:32:48,244 --> 00:32:53,424
stuff, you know, it'll never work, you
know, social media, you know, whatever

547
00:32:53,424 --> 00:32:59,164
platform, they'll always like, um,
have the advantage over yourself.

548
00:32:59,714 --> 00:33:02,324
Um, well, you know, all
those things, but it's like.

549
00:33:03,349 --> 00:33:07,679
Um, yeah, I just feel a bit, a
bit more excited, uh, partly the

550
00:33:07,679 --> 00:33:10,089
Fediverse, partly like open web stuff.

551
00:33:10,709 --> 00:33:15,859
I think, I have hope that, like, the
trend is changing more towards that.

552
00:33:16,769 --> 00:33:21,489
Um, and I'm definitely seeing, um,
a few more tech people just kind

553
00:33:21,489 --> 00:33:24,069
of disregarding the big socials.

554
00:33:24,069 --> 00:33:28,729
Um, Twitter is an obvious one that,
like, people have just left en masse.

555
00:33:30,899 --> 00:33:33,679
To be honest, I think people
feel the same with everything.

556
00:33:33,689 --> 00:33:38,819
Even like, Thread seems nice, or
LinkedIn seems nice, and they'll

557
00:33:38,819 --> 00:33:42,279
play in your favor for a while,
but then they own your data, right?

558
00:33:42,279 --> 00:33:42,669
Yeah.

559
00:33:42,679 --> 00:33:47,409
And they opt you in to the AI
stuff without permission, but you

560
00:33:47,409 --> 00:33:51,709
can uncheck yourself, but people
mostly don't, or they're not aware.

561
00:33:52,479 --> 00:33:55,964
And to me, it's just like, I don't
want to play that game anymore.

562
00:33:56,344 --> 00:33:58,954
I've just, like, I've
decided I've had enough.

563
00:33:59,394 --> 00:34:01,954
Um, yeah.

564
00:34:02,354 --> 00:34:03,744
So I'm part of generalist world.

565
00:34:03,744 --> 00:34:06,724
I know, I know you're considering
yourself a generalist and, and I think

566
00:34:06,724 --> 00:34:10,474
you've consulted with Malik, uh, on,
on how to build that community, right?

567
00:34:10,824 --> 00:34:14,974
Um, so it is the one group that
I've been part of where we've

568
00:34:14,974 --> 00:34:16,144
done the in person meetup.

569
00:34:16,154 --> 00:34:20,224
So I actually went to Toronto,
um, what, two weeks ago now?

570
00:34:20,474 --> 00:34:22,354
It took me two and a half hours each way.

571
00:34:23,659 --> 00:34:25,449
Certainly a full time commitment.

572
00:34:25,789 --> 00:34:27,079
Um, but it was fun.

573
00:34:27,089 --> 00:34:28,719
It was, it was neat to find something.

574
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,454
It was actually Kind of interesting
because a lot of the people

575
00:34:31,454 --> 00:34:34,234
who are actually there were
potential community members.

576
00:34:34,234 --> 00:34:35,674
They weren't actually
part of the community.

577
00:34:35,674 --> 00:34:36,774
So I was like, oh, okay.

578
00:34:36,774 --> 00:34:40,834
So I found myself pitching a
lot of it, what the community

579
00:34:40,834 --> 00:34:42,044
was and what the potential was.

580
00:34:42,384 --> 00:34:46,254
But, um, what was interesting is
you mentioned threads I posted,

581
00:34:46,324 --> 00:34:48,254
um, I took a picture of just.

582
00:34:48,714 --> 00:34:51,534
Toronto it's really just trying to
prove that I was in Toronto because

583
00:34:51,534 --> 00:34:55,074
I don't go very often right because
I'm north of the city and I took a

584
00:34:55,074 --> 00:34:57,794
picture I had Roy Thompson Hall in
front of it and then Seattle Tower.

585
00:34:57,794 --> 00:35:01,234
It was just those are recognizable
Toronto landmarks, right?

586
00:35:01,929 --> 00:35:07,679
And, uh, I post it on threads and I
just put, every time I go to Toronto,

587
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:09,319
I remember why I don't go to Toronto.

588
00:35:09,529 --> 00:35:11,639
Meaning that the keeming was awful, right?

589
00:35:11,669 --> 00:35:13,589
Traffic was just awful, right?

590
00:35:13,749 --> 00:35:16,199
And oh my God, people just jumped on me.

591
00:35:16,219 --> 00:35:19,079
It, the whole thread went viral,
but it was like for completely the

592
00:35:19,079 --> 00:35:22,119
wrong reason because they're like,
well, if you don't want to come

593
00:35:22,129 --> 00:35:23,459
to Toronto, don't come to Toronto.

594
00:35:23,459 --> 00:35:26,429
And it was just like all
of these negative people.

595
00:35:26,429 --> 00:35:28,939
They're like, what's your
problem with Roy Thompson Hall?

596
00:35:28,949 --> 00:35:31,789
And I'm like, I don't have a
problem with Roy Thompson Hall.

597
00:35:31,799 --> 00:35:33,669
It's a beautiful facility.

598
00:35:33,699 --> 00:35:35,159
I've been there once in my life.

599
00:35:35,159 --> 00:35:36,289
I don't care.

600
00:35:37,329 --> 00:35:41,639
It's just in the picture because
that's where the CN Tower is, right?

601
00:35:43,039 --> 00:35:43,999
Oh my goodness.

602
00:35:44,009 --> 00:35:49,299
So yeah, it was interesting because I
like threads, but I do find that it still

603
00:35:49,299 --> 00:35:54,459
gets that type of like viral negativity
every so often that Twitter has.

604
00:35:54,929 --> 00:35:56,489
It's interesting how it's pages.

605
00:35:59,569 --> 00:36:01,809
I've had a couple of viral threads.

606
00:36:02,599 --> 00:36:05,309
I didn't get the negativity
though, so that's interesting.

607
00:36:06,429 --> 00:36:07,039
Block and mute.

608
00:36:09,189 --> 00:36:14,499
Yeah, I mean like, I basically
posted about Twitter, and leaving

609
00:36:14,669 --> 00:36:15,999
Twitter, or something like that.

610
00:36:16,949 --> 00:36:17,439
What was it?

611
00:36:19,159 --> 00:36:21,769
I got kicked out of a group.

612
00:36:22,309 --> 00:36:23,859
On Twitter for some reason.

613
00:36:24,749 --> 00:36:26,269
Yeah, I can't remember what it was

614
00:36:28,479 --> 00:36:33,319
or something about Elon Musk
blocking me or no, no, it was

615
00:36:33,349 --> 00:36:36,268
because I had blocked Elon Musk.

616
00:36:36,349 --> 00:36:37,589
It wouldn't let me join.

617
00:36:37,589 --> 00:36:45,289
Yeah, it wouldn't let me join their kind
of Twitter moderation group or something.

618
00:36:45,369 --> 00:36:46,029
Oh, right.

619
00:36:46,029 --> 00:36:49,699
Yeah, yeah, because you can be part of the
group if you if you had actually blocked

620
00:36:49,699 --> 00:36:53,239
Elon Musk and you were like, yeah, yeah,
I'm blocking him to be able to join.

621
00:36:55,134 --> 00:36:58,044
So I posted a screenshot
of that, and it went viral.

622
00:36:58,154 --> 00:36:58,904
It was quite funny.

623
00:36:59,554 --> 00:37:02,414
But like, does it add value
to my life in any kind of way?

624
00:37:02,564 --> 00:37:02,834
Is it?

625
00:37:02,834 --> 00:37:03,764
Absolutely not.

626
00:37:04,664 --> 00:37:05,514
Did it bring followers?

627
00:37:06,064 --> 00:37:06,724
Not really.

628
00:37:08,574 --> 00:37:11,654
So it's like, you know, I think
it's like, I don't know, I'm

629
00:37:11,794 --> 00:37:15,134
getting older, I just don't care
anymore about that kind of stuff.

630
00:37:16,634 --> 00:37:21,544
And to be honest, I've just, uh,
whilst I still occasionally post,

631
00:37:21,744 --> 00:37:29,229
and I still will, but like There's
a term, it's like, um, post once,

632
00:37:29,449 --> 00:37:32,749
syndicate everywhere, I think it is.

633
00:37:32,999 --> 00:37:39,029
P O S E, um, so like, the idea is
to like, first post on your own

634
00:37:39,189 --> 00:37:40,929
platform, on your own website.

635
00:37:41,199 --> 00:37:44,119
And then cross post to like, yeah.

636
00:37:45,429 --> 00:37:49,969
Um, but these days, I just like,
I just post to either Ministry of

637
00:37:49,969 --> 00:37:51,709
Testing or Rosyland for my stuff.

638
00:37:52,149 --> 00:37:52,309
Right.

639
00:37:52,309 --> 00:37:57,729
And I barely bother anymore with social,
I just, uh Yeah, I've seen you a lot less.

640
00:37:57,729 --> 00:38:04,304
Yeah, yeah, I just can't, I don't
have the Uh, yeah, I don't know.

641
00:38:04,994 --> 00:38:07,064
I think there's a general
amount of these, basically.

642
00:38:07,084 --> 00:38:09,904
People are just not enjoying it.

643
00:38:09,914 --> 00:38:11,884
Like, honestly, I gotta
tell you, I love LinkedIn.

644
00:38:12,294 --> 00:38:13,944
I always did love LinkedIn.

645
00:38:13,964 --> 00:38:15,984
But it's been less fun this year.

646
00:38:15,994 --> 00:38:18,684
Like, something is in the air.

647
00:38:18,764 --> 00:38:21,444
And I don't exactly,
couldn't tell you what.

648
00:38:21,704 --> 00:38:24,474
Um, and maybe it's the focus on video.

649
00:38:24,474 --> 00:38:25,874
Because I really just don't love video.

650
00:38:28,669 --> 00:38:31,429
You can barely tell what platform you're
on anymore, it's like sometimes I'm on

651
00:38:31,429 --> 00:38:33,249
LinkedIn and I think I'm on Facebook.

652
00:38:34,069 --> 00:38:35,329
Oh yeah, yeah.

653
00:38:35,939 --> 00:38:39,329
And if you scroll the video feed,
like if you have the new video feed,

654
00:38:39,329 --> 00:38:41,989
it's like, oh my god, these are all
the people that I know from TikTok.

655
00:38:42,439 --> 00:38:47,479
But it's like, I've never seen those
people on LinkedIn before ever, right?

656
00:38:47,969 --> 00:38:49,999
So it's like, where does that come from?

657
00:38:49,999 --> 00:38:52,079
And it's like, I don't know.

658
00:38:52,079 --> 00:38:54,339
I just, I don't know that
there's so much value.

659
00:38:54,339 --> 00:38:55,419
You can share it.

660
00:38:55,419 --> 00:38:57,599
Like the videos have to
be like under 60 seconds.

661
00:38:57,609 --> 00:39:00,829
And I tried, or is it 90, 90 seconds?

662
00:39:00,829 --> 00:39:04,219
I tried and I could only get like,
do two minutes and 20 seconds.

663
00:39:04,219 --> 00:39:06,929
And that is like, I couldn't cut it
down anymore because I'm like, I'm

664
00:39:06,929 --> 00:39:08,909
just, I'm not sharing anything useful.

665
00:39:09,559 --> 00:39:13,419
So it's like, I don't care if you don't
like me, but that's how long I need to

666
00:39:13,419 --> 00:39:15,149
be able to actually craft a message.

667
00:39:15,199 --> 00:39:19,489
But I mean, honestly, maybe that's
wrong because you do 99 seconds.

668
00:39:19,489 --> 00:39:20,013
So.

669
00:39:20,494 --> 00:39:22,374
You have to get better at speaking.

670
00:39:25,204 --> 00:39:25,454
That's funny.

671
00:39:26,994 --> 00:39:30,394
We'd love to, like one of the
ideas I'd love to do is actually

672
00:39:30,424 --> 00:39:35,904
do really short form videos on
MOT, like like Reels, like TikToks.

673
00:39:36,304 --> 00:39:36,644
Yeah.

674
00:39:37,604 --> 00:39:39,084
I think that would be quite quite fun.

675
00:39:39,694 --> 00:39:40,014
Yeah.

676
00:39:41,354 --> 00:39:42,544
With us owning the data.

677
00:39:43,284 --> 00:39:43,634
Right.

678
00:39:43,814 --> 00:39:43,894
Obviously.

679
00:39:44,524 --> 00:39:44,704
Yeah.

680
00:39:45,194 --> 00:39:46,124
Not the social platforms.

681
00:39:46,544 --> 00:39:46,984
Yeah.

682
00:39:47,674 --> 00:39:48,974
I wanted to bring one thing up.

683
00:39:49,024 --> 00:39:52,644
Uh, you mentioned that, uh, people
have been going away from community

684
00:39:52,644 --> 00:39:54,124
and is starting to come back.

685
00:39:54,424 --> 00:39:57,874
Before we started recording, I got
an email from somebody that I follow

686
00:39:57,874 --> 00:40:03,734
that I like, um, and basically they,
um, were talking about, like, how

687
00:40:03,734 --> 00:40:05,074
to facilitate return to office.

688
00:40:05,074 --> 00:40:09,644
And one of the themes was,
So what's your theory?

689
00:40:09,704 --> 00:40:15,484
I know what my theory is about immunity,
uh, as part of an agenda, right?

690
00:40:18,644 --> 00:40:23,484
Yeah, I mean, that kind of, it
kind of feels like, um, if someone

691
00:40:23,494 --> 00:40:27,114
like, All of a sudden springs,
like, the answer is community.

692
00:40:27,224 --> 00:40:29,704
It feels just, just genuine.

693
00:40:29,704 --> 00:40:31,504
It doesn't feel real, right?

694
00:40:31,504 --> 00:40:33,404
It feels like another fad.

695
00:40:33,834 --> 00:40:37,924
It's like, we're doing back to office
because we want to build community.

696
00:40:38,674 --> 00:40:42,834
Um, I think, like, most companies, if
they really wanted to do community,

697
00:40:42,834 --> 00:40:44,494
they would have been doing it anyways.

698
00:40:45,204 --> 00:40:45,404
Right.

699
00:40:45,624 --> 00:40:50,524
Um, and maybe, maybe if there's a back to
office thing, it's like, Considering the

700
00:40:50,534 --> 00:40:54,904
communities or the people's voices in that
is like, do people really want to go back?

701
00:40:54,914 --> 00:40:58,184
Or are they, you know, have they
really listened to people that,

702
00:40:58,394 --> 00:41:03,814
um, about their opinions or
needs about going back to office?

703
00:41:04,419 --> 00:41:07,369
And that's what I think about
a return to office community.

704
00:41:07,369 --> 00:41:12,159
It's like, you know, is the topic
of whether going back or not off the

705
00:41:12,159 --> 00:41:16,669
table, because if that conversation
isn't a conversation you're willing

706
00:41:16,669 --> 00:41:22,774
to have, then automatically it's
not a genuine community, right?

707
00:41:22,824 --> 00:41:27,004
Because you're, you're limiting
the, the conversation, right?

708
00:41:28,294 --> 00:41:31,704
So it's also a very
ableist thing to do, right?

709
00:41:32,484 --> 00:41:36,214
It's like dismissing like
the needs of so many people.

710
00:41:36,214 --> 00:41:37,594
And I think honestly, like

711
00:41:39,754 --> 00:41:42,994
a lot of good came from
COVID from that perspective.

712
00:41:43,004 --> 00:41:47,064
Like, I've worked from home for
like 15 years, but the fact that

713
00:41:47,074 --> 00:41:51,604
like working from home became
normalized, I think it's amazing for.

714
00:41:52,234 --> 00:41:56,894
For so many people around the world, you
know, new divergent people, mothers, you

715
00:41:56,894 --> 00:42:01,064
know, it's just people with complicated
lives or, you know, parents to care for.

716
00:42:01,184 --> 00:42:03,514
I almost have like all of
that in my life at the moment.

717
00:42:04,364 --> 00:42:08,814
I've got my care for, I've got
a new divergency, we homeschool,

718
00:42:09,684 --> 00:42:12,294
um, you know, I have five kids.

719
00:42:12,714 --> 00:42:16,834
It's like, there's no way I'd be able to
go into an office, but it's like, can I

720
00:42:16,834 --> 00:42:19,914
still build community in a sense of work?

721
00:42:19,914 --> 00:42:24,134
And what we do is like, yeah, But it
doesn't, you know, it doesn't mean going

722
00:42:24,134 --> 00:42:29,374
into the office and, um, I, you know,
I definitely know, like, with, with

723
00:42:29,374 --> 00:42:32,994
Ministry of Testing, like, if we, if
we force people into the office, it's

724
00:42:33,254 --> 00:42:35,574
like, everyone would leave, you know.

725
00:42:36,574 --> 00:42:40,474
It's, it's, it's not community focused
if you're not taken into consideration.

726
00:42:41,369 --> 00:42:42,039
what people need.

727
00:42:42,589 --> 00:42:48,039
And I know in my circumstance,
it wouldn't be possible because,

728
00:42:48,129 --> 00:42:51,829
because of how people's lives
have now adapted since COVID.

729
00:42:51,829 --> 00:42:55,589
It's like, there's been too much
change to go back, in my opinion,

730
00:42:55,589 --> 00:43:01,139
to, um, and, and, you know, like,
often, I think, you know, isn't that,

731
00:43:01,139 --> 00:43:04,539
like, illegal to, uh, force that?

732
00:43:05,384 --> 00:43:08,024
onto people, isn't that
like discrimination, like

733
00:43:08,564 --> 00:43:10,714
disability, like discrimination?

734
00:43:11,134 --> 00:43:15,584
Well, this is where if you can work from
home, yeah, this is really where the

735
00:43:15,584 --> 00:43:19,784
laws get interesting around the world,
because like the UK is actually being

736
00:43:19,814 --> 00:43:26,371
pretty, um, thoughtful, I think, because
isn't there a, uh, a law that where, you

737
00:43:26,371 --> 00:43:30,569
know, And then it's like, all companies
have to at least consider the work from

738
00:43:30,569 --> 00:43:32,759
home request and actually assess it.

739
00:43:33,259 --> 00:43:34,799
So everyone can believe.

740
00:43:34,799 --> 00:43:39,689
So yeah, I just don't know what that looks
like in practice and whether it has any.

741
00:43:40,159 --> 00:43:43,483
And, you know, if you're denied
what you're what you're what you're.

742
00:43:43,584 --> 00:43:44,984
What your rights are basically.

743
00:43:44,984 --> 00:43:48,934
So, you know, I think that that's
a whole area of development that

744
00:43:48,934 --> 00:43:54,174
needs to really come into play to
make sure that rights are respected.

745
00:43:54,174 --> 00:44:01,854
But, um, that whole aspect of, you know,
does return to office impact, um, you

746
00:44:01,854 --> 00:44:06,849
know, women, people who are older, uh,
you know, You know, uh, people who have,

747
00:44:06,889 --> 00:44:10,749
um, neurodivergence, like you mentioned,
disabilities, physical disabilities

748
00:44:10,749 --> 00:44:16,169
as well, too, when you see systems in
place that are targeting, um, those

749
00:44:16,199 --> 00:44:19,009
people, because those are the people who
are said that their lives are impacted

750
00:44:19,009 --> 00:44:20,939
negatively by going back to the office.

751
00:44:21,409 --> 00:44:25,589
Then that's a whole system
of oppression, right?

752
00:44:25,599 --> 00:44:30,879
So basically systems are
meant to continue, right?

753
00:44:30,889 --> 00:44:32,819
So they're built to continue.

754
00:44:32,819 --> 00:44:36,949
So my personal take is Return
to Office is an example of

755
00:44:37,259 --> 00:44:39,129
systems of oppression thriving,

756
00:44:41,729 --> 00:44:45,349
and that's a conversation that
not a lot of people are having.

757
00:44:47,799 --> 00:44:49,619
And then, and then from
the community aspect.

758
00:44:50,774 --> 00:44:56,334
I guess what, what I get annoyed
about and sometimes a bit, I wouldn't

759
00:44:56,454 --> 00:45:03,344
say angry, but um, protective with
community is, you know, it's like using

760
00:45:03,344 --> 00:45:06,874
communities as an excuse to make it.

761
00:45:07,404 --> 00:45:11,074
Other things happen because like when
people say the word community everybody's

762
00:45:11,074 --> 00:45:12,914
oh, yeah, of course, that sounds great.

763
00:45:12,964 --> 00:45:14,284
Oh, we'd love more.

764
00:45:14,284 --> 00:45:16,374
Yeah Oh, yes, let's buy into it.

765
00:45:16,844 --> 00:45:23,234
Um, and like through the whole Pandemic
is that it's like community hype and you

766
00:45:23,234 --> 00:45:28,153
know Yeah, oh my god, like crypto stuff
and like people going into all this stuff

767
00:45:28,824 --> 00:45:32,864
Crypto's community and I, I kept pushing
back and saying, it's not community,

768
00:45:32,864 --> 00:45:34,204
what, what the heck are you talking about?

769
00:45:34,434 --> 00:45:38,874
This is, this is not going to work and,
but like, people kept slapping the name

770
00:45:38,884 --> 00:45:42,894
community on it saying this is community
or it's like, you know, buy it, buy

771
00:45:42,894 --> 00:45:47,986
it, buy this, this token or buy this
NFT and you'll automatically be part of

772
00:45:47,986 --> 00:45:55,064
this, uh, community and find belonging
and, and you can make money and this

773
00:45:55,114 --> 00:45:57,134
and that and it's just like, Yeah.

774
00:45:57,204 --> 00:46:02,414
Um, it doesn't, it doesn't help
like what community is and what we

775
00:46:02,554 --> 00:46:08,124
can achieve and people end up kind
of what I feel is like people are

776
00:46:08,124 --> 00:46:11,994
disillusioned by the idea of community
now they're like oh it's just hype.

777
00:46:12,024 --> 00:46:14,784
Right, because the focus isn't
on the members, it's not on that

778
00:46:14,784 --> 00:46:16,594
connection, there's an agenda.

779
00:46:16,974 --> 00:46:22,239
Um, Before I actually was restructured in
my work, I had founded like an employee

780
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:27,079
resource group at my work family because
I knew as soon as people were forced

781
00:46:27,089 --> 00:46:29,869
from home, the people who are going
to be impacted were the people who had

782
00:46:30,269 --> 00:46:33,759
children who had caregiving, who had never
worked from home before and didn't know

783
00:46:33,759 --> 00:46:37,899
how to manage, um, you know, how do you
work when you've got like three kids?

784
00:46:38,669 --> 00:46:38,969
Right?

785
00:46:39,049 --> 00:46:43,309
I knew that was going to be an issue
because, well, I knew what it was

786
00:46:43,309 --> 00:46:44,969
like to, to try to manage that.

787
00:46:45,459 --> 00:46:49,224
Um, And I was really disappointed
the other day, they posted that

788
00:46:49,264 --> 00:46:51,874
still community still exists,
even though I'm not there anymore.

789
00:46:52,244 --> 00:46:56,404
And, um, they posted that it was
all about teaching kids about,

790
00:46:56,914 --> 00:47:01,044
you know, financial, uh, literacy,
but it's like, okay, that's great.

791
00:47:01,084 --> 00:47:05,924
That's a, it's a valid thing to teach kids
about, but it's like, that is directly

792
00:47:05,924 --> 00:47:07,564
funneling into the products that you sell.

793
00:47:07,904 --> 00:47:11,004
So basically your community
is not necessarily focused

794
00:47:11,004 --> 00:47:12,554
on family and the kids.

795
00:47:12,904 --> 00:47:14,404
Your community is really about.

796
00:47:14,694 --> 00:47:20,454
Building a potential new customers,
and that's really what your focus is.

797
00:47:20,454 --> 00:47:21,954
And I'm like five years later.

798
00:47:22,734 --> 00:47:27,224
You haven't actually learned what
community is about, and the focus is not

799
00:47:27,224 --> 00:47:28,874
on the people that you actually serve.

800
00:47:29,054 --> 00:47:30,494
And I'm like, that's so sad.

801
00:47:30,494 --> 00:47:33,974
It made me so sad, because I'm like,
that is not at all what I envisioned

802
00:47:34,534 --> 00:47:36,194
was the potential for the community.

803
00:47:36,194 --> 00:47:40,174
I, I visioned it as being a resource
to help people with their lives,

804
00:47:40,174 --> 00:47:40,438
help people with their needs.

805
00:47:40,649 --> 00:47:44,749
People with their, their work and
basically just be committed to like

806
00:47:44,749 --> 00:47:49,959
their, their belonging and wellbeing
and, you know, make it a better place

807
00:47:49,959 --> 00:47:54,039
to work, not a funnel for potential
new customers when they're 10

808
00:47:56,959 --> 00:47:58,069
. I, I just, yeah.

809
00:47:59,109 --> 00:48:04,509
It becomes transactional at that point and
it, it under undermines the trust I think

810
00:48:04,509 --> 00:48:06,369
that you have in the community organizers.

811
00:48:06,369 --> 00:48:06,429
Yeah.

812
00:48:09,109 --> 00:48:13,449
It's also, you know, stuff like that,
it's also a reason, like, um, why I

813
00:48:13,449 --> 00:48:17,719
don't, like, track our marketing efforts
and stuff like that, it's like, we have

814
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:22,619
systems in place, we send emails, we
do social stuff, but I don't, I don't,

815
00:48:22,629 --> 00:48:27,319
like, I tend to keep an eye on, like,
the graphs going upwards and whether

816
00:48:27,609 --> 00:48:29,289
it's trending in a positive way.

817
00:48:29,629 --> 00:48:29,849
Yeah.

818
00:48:29,899 --> 00:48:35,689
Um, but, like, I guess, like,
if you open rates like crazy.

819
00:48:37,589 --> 00:48:41,799
No, and I don't track like sales that come
in, like when did they first subscribe?

820
00:48:41,829 --> 00:48:45,459
How long, how long does it take them to
become a customer and stuff like that?

821
00:48:45,459 --> 00:48:49,169
It's like, of course, you know, it's
like, you know, in the ideal world,

822
00:48:49,359 --> 00:48:53,719
it'd be nice if they became a customer
quicker rather than later, um, it

823
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:55,239
would make our lives a lot easier.

824
00:48:55,279 --> 00:48:58,379
We could probably grow
quicker and stuff like that.

825
00:48:58,419 --> 00:49:02,589
But, um, I've come to the conclusion
that it's just like too much work

826
00:49:02,709 --> 00:49:04,459
to even try to make sense of.

827
00:49:05,529 --> 00:49:10,789
You know, how people make decisions,
where, where purchases come from and, and

828
00:49:10,889 --> 00:49:16,399
actually often like a lot, a lot of our
purchases come from like training budgets.

829
00:49:16,409 --> 00:49:20,569
So there's no actual way to track it
from an individual because it would

830
00:49:20,579 --> 00:49:25,819
be a word of mouth or an internal
conversation that happens with the HR or

831
00:49:25,819 --> 00:49:28,479
training people to get budget sign off.

832
00:49:28,769 --> 00:49:32,419
And then that budget sign off
team would then come to us.

833
00:49:33,079 --> 00:49:38,199
Separately and say, you know, buy
something, but like trying to connect it

834
00:49:38,199 --> 00:49:41,879
to the original source is like impossible.

835
00:49:42,199 --> 00:49:46,489
Um, so like the idea of like tech
being able to track absolutely

836
00:49:46,509 --> 00:49:50,629
everything, I think, like for us, it's
just like, it's just overkill, right?

837
00:49:50,639 --> 00:49:56,699
You can spend so much time, you
know, time and money, I guess.

838
00:49:57,069 --> 00:50:01,819
Um, on all these things, or for me it's
just like, or you can have fun along

839
00:50:01,829 --> 00:50:05,639
the way and just do your best to grow,
do your best to get people to sign

840
00:50:05,639 --> 00:50:10,649
up, and keep your fingers crossed that
people, people will like what you do.

841
00:50:11,999 --> 00:50:18,789
Well, how do you, how do you quantify
like word of mouth and that connection

842
00:50:18,849 --> 00:50:24,089
right like if people are being drawn
because of the community aspect and the

843
00:50:24,089 --> 00:50:26,099
support like all of that kind of stuff.

844
00:50:26,649 --> 00:50:27,859
It's really hard to quantify.

845
00:50:27,869 --> 00:50:30,699
So you're probably even not
going to get great data on the

846
00:50:30,699 --> 00:50:32,599
reality of why people join.

847
00:50:33,349 --> 00:50:34,489
So you're probably wise.

848
00:50:35,529 --> 00:50:39,349
Yeah, you know, and then there's like,
in the community world, it's like,

849
00:50:39,639 --> 00:50:42,899
oh, what's a return on investment on
community and stuff, and it's just

850
00:50:42,899 --> 00:50:46,139
like, I just cannot get, get involved.

851
00:50:46,759 --> 00:50:47,179
Yeah.

852
00:50:47,469 --> 00:50:50,789
It's, you know, it just feels like an
impossible task, or, you know, pointless

853
00:50:50,789 --> 00:50:55,299
task, and it's like, I'd rather spend my
time, like, trying to, trying to improve

854
00:50:55,299 --> 00:51:01,119
the industry, or trying to find or
create better ways of building community.

855
00:51:01,814 --> 00:51:02,144
Right.

856
00:51:02,254 --> 00:51:07,684
Perhaps, you know, that's, that's
what I've ended up being good at.

857
00:51:08,004 --> 00:51:10,854
I guess like that's how you people
like yourself like stumble across

858
00:51:10,854 --> 00:51:15,454
me is because I just tried to push
forward with different ideas to

859
00:51:15,484 --> 00:51:17,064
get people to think differently.

860
00:51:17,474 --> 00:51:21,504
Yeah, about community because mostly
because I'm just frustrated like with.

861
00:51:23,079 --> 00:51:25,719
I like your genuineness, your honesty.

862
00:51:25,869 --> 00:51:32,029
Honestly, that's like, I feel that
you're a straight talker and I can

863
00:51:32,029 --> 00:51:37,989
trust your, your expertise and your
advice and, uh, you come to things

864
00:51:37,989 --> 00:51:41,399
with what I feel is the right approach.

865
00:51:42,184 --> 00:51:43,254
putting people first.

866
00:51:44,354 --> 00:51:47,354
I do have one last thing that I'd
like to bring up and that's the whole

867
00:51:47,354 --> 00:51:50,894
connection of the world loneliness
epidemic, if you'd like to call it that,

868
00:51:51,394 --> 00:51:54,784
um, and how community can really help.

869
00:51:55,214 --> 00:52:00,504
And it seems like it's a big, vast
topic, but I personally think big,

870
00:52:00,574 --> 00:52:05,789
vast topics are best solved with, um,
Small approaches on a regular basis.

871
00:52:06,999 --> 00:52:07,869
What's your take on that?

872
00:52:07,869 --> 00:52:12,679
Yeah, yeah, like, you know, a lot, a
lot of people would look at me and I'd

873
00:52:12,679 --> 00:52:17,079
say, Oh, you've got a lot of followers,
or you must be surrounded by people.

874
00:52:17,149 --> 00:52:21,139
But actually, like, day to day, it's
like, a very small amount of people that

875
00:52:21,319 --> 00:52:23,739
I actually interact with closely, right?

876
00:52:24,669 --> 00:52:28,129
I think, I think there's a lot of
people who, look at others and think,

877
00:52:28,139 --> 00:52:29,619
Oh, they must have it all together.

878
00:52:29,669 --> 00:52:31,679
But, you know, actually we don't.

879
00:52:31,789 --> 00:52:39,409
And, um, more recently I've, I've been
going small and more intentional and I've

880
00:52:39,409 --> 00:52:45,269
like picked out a handful of people and
we WhatsApp together and we just have

881
00:52:45,329 --> 00:52:50,278
this like agreement that we're going
to keep in touch whatever way we can.

882
00:52:50,279 --> 00:52:55,049
And sometimes it's just like, instead of
like, you could share a photo on Instagram

883
00:52:55,119 --> 00:52:56,459
or I could share it in a WhatsApp.

884
00:52:56,959 --> 00:52:57,379
Right.

885
00:52:57,959 --> 00:52:58,289
Yeah.

886
00:52:58,819 --> 00:53:02,709
And the WhatsApp always gets a response
or always gets a conversation going.

887
00:53:02,899 --> 00:53:03,199
Right.

888
00:53:03,249 --> 00:53:05,649
And it's always nice, nice to see, right?

889
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:08,079
But it's not the same in Instagram.

890
00:53:09,729 --> 00:53:11,799
Well, WhatsApp doesn't
have an algorithm, right?

891
00:53:13,099 --> 00:53:16,048
It doesn't have an algorithm.

892
00:53:16,049 --> 00:53:18,439
You know, it's more personal sometimes.

893
00:53:18,679 --> 00:53:18,889
Yeah.

894
00:53:18,889 --> 00:53:19,829
Depends how you use it.

895
00:53:21,384 --> 00:53:26,154
But, but I think like, you know, like
startups, especially what, you know, the

896
00:53:26,154 --> 00:53:31,194
tech world, they think they can solve
loneliness through, uh, technology.

897
00:53:32,284 --> 00:53:39,889
And whilst I think it contributes, um,
honestly, it's just like, We have to

898
00:53:39,889 --> 00:53:45,389
find ways to properly connect one to
one with people and have conversations

899
00:53:45,919 --> 00:53:52,339
and not rely on this spamming of groups
or thinking like, you know, getting the

900
00:53:52,339 --> 00:53:57,799
attention or getting the virality is going
to all of a sudden help our loneliness.

901
00:53:57,799 --> 00:53:58,569
It doesn't.

902
00:53:58,609 --> 00:53:59,549
It doesn't help at all.

903
00:54:01,589 --> 00:54:05,369
And I guess like if I was making
recommendations to people, I

904
00:54:05,369 --> 00:54:09,719
would, I'd say, you know, think
about your local community, think

905
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:11,129
about the people around you.

906
00:54:11,829 --> 00:54:17,579
Those are really the people, most
of the time, who you can, they will

907
00:54:17,579 --> 00:54:18,909
help you get out of that loneliness.

908
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:24,454
It's like when you're Unwell when you're
unable to do something and it's the

909
00:54:24,454 --> 00:54:28,214
people around you who are close to you
who can actually like give you what

910
00:54:28,214 --> 00:54:33,064
you need, you know, if you need someone
to go to the shop for you and you've

911
00:54:33,104 --> 00:54:37,604
got a broken leg, whatever it is, it's
like local people can help you, right?

912
00:54:37,654 --> 00:54:38,474
You just need sugar.

913
00:54:38,634 --> 00:54:39,744
Let's go back to the old days.

914
00:54:40,424 --> 00:54:41,694
Ask your neighbor for sugar.

915
00:54:44,244 --> 00:54:45,404
It's so simple, right?

916
00:54:45,444 --> 00:54:47,204
But like people have forgotten it.

917
00:54:47,514 --> 00:54:47,764
Yes.

918
00:54:49,184 --> 00:54:50,904
That's, you know, that's my strategy.

919
00:54:50,994 --> 00:54:56,044
That's my intentional strategy at the
moment is like, um, I'm guilty of falling

920
00:54:56,044 --> 00:54:58,314
into that loneliness trap as well.

921
00:54:58,314 --> 00:55:03,224
I'm guilty of just getting overwhelmed
with life and everything around it

922
00:55:03,224 --> 00:55:05,514
and neglecting the people around me.

923
00:55:05,974 --> 00:55:11,454
Um, but especially in the past couple
of years, I've kind of like more

924
00:55:11,454 --> 00:55:15,844
intentionally reached, you know, reaching
out to people, developing friendships.

925
00:55:16,544 --> 00:55:22,054
And, you know, kind of making that
extra effort with people that, you

926
00:55:22,054 --> 00:55:26,374
know, I think would make a difference
to my life with my family's life.

927
00:55:27,924 --> 00:55:29,034
Yeah, no, very nice.

928
00:55:29,074 --> 00:55:29,614
I agree.

929
00:55:30,184 --> 00:55:34,584
Um, yeah, I've always, um, I was, I was
thinking the other day, like, I've always

930
00:55:34,584 --> 00:55:36,334
been a part of a community family, right?

931
00:55:36,344 --> 00:55:37,264
Like, I grew up.

932
00:55:37,669 --> 00:55:40,799
My parents would get up at like five
o'clock, uh, leave by six o'clock in

933
00:55:40,799 --> 00:55:43,559
the morning, and they wouldn't get home
until like six, seven o'clock at night.

934
00:55:44,019 --> 00:55:48,199
And that's been my entire life, um,
until I started working from home.

935
00:55:48,989 --> 00:55:55,929
And for people to then expect us to give
that up, where you feel that you can, you

936
00:55:55,929 --> 00:55:59,789
know, if you need somebody to walk your
dog, you can just go next door, right?

937
00:56:00,449 --> 00:56:02,789
You, you've built those
connections with people, right?

938
00:56:02,789 --> 00:56:04,269
Because you have more time.

939
00:56:04,714 --> 00:56:07,054
To invest in the people around you, right?

940
00:56:07,264 --> 00:56:09,874
And to give that up to
go back to commuting.

941
00:56:09,874 --> 00:56:12,394
So you have maybe like one
hour a day with my kids.

942
00:56:12,754 --> 00:56:15,124
Um, that's a really big expectation.

943
00:56:15,304 --> 00:56:19,884
And I think that's honestly a big
part of why people are, um, fighting

944
00:56:19,884 --> 00:56:24,534
it is because they've built community
closer to where they live rather than

945
00:56:24,794 --> 00:56:26,924
community where they work in the office.

946
00:56:28,999 --> 00:56:29,279
Right.

947
00:56:29,369 --> 00:56:30,309
How do you, how do you let that go?

948
00:56:30,309 --> 00:56:35,689
And like, you know, some people,
you know, they, they, they look

949
00:56:35,689 --> 00:56:38,409
at me and say, Oh, you're crazy.

950
00:56:40,449 --> 00:56:42,099
You've got, you've got what, five kids?

951
00:56:42,099 --> 00:56:47,269
You've got a business, a couple
of businesses, homeschool as well.

952
00:56:47,279 --> 00:56:50,119
It's like, Oh my God, that
must be, that must be so much.

953
00:56:50,119 --> 00:56:50,729
But like.

954
00:56:51,694 --> 00:56:55,124
Actually, like, you know, like, there's
certain aspects, for example, with

955
00:56:55,124 --> 00:56:58,914
homeschooling, homeschooling that
actually makes life so much easier.

956
00:56:59,194 --> 00:57:04,404
Like, not doing the school run every
day and not dealing with, like, all

957
00:57:04,404 --> 00:57:07,804
the things that come with school,
all the messages, all the, you know.

958
00:57:07,854 --> 00:57:10,734
You don't have to sit in an
auditorium and listen to 30 kids

959
00:57:10,804 --> 00:57:12,524
play recorders really badly.

960
00:57:12,524 --> 00:57:15,213
Yeah.

961
00:57:16,184 --> 00:57:20,084
But, but, but like, instead, like, the
flip side of that is like, we end up

962
00:57:20,094 --> 00:57:23,814
connecting with other home editors, and
we end up supporting each other, right?

963
00:57:23,824 --> 00:57:29,259
So we're like, you know, we'll have, Uh,
we say playdates, but it's also, playdates

964
00:57:29,259 --> 00:57:35,169
aren't playdates themselves, often they're
a way of supporting each other, or, or,

965
00:57:35,209 --> 00:57:39,849
it's like, let's, let's share, um, car
runs, or pick up times sometimes, we,

966
00:57:40,119 --> 00:57:45,439
we find people locally, and we try to,
you know, encourage each other to, to

967
00:57:45,439 --> 00:57:49,774
help each other out, instead of like,
You know, you know, it's good for the

968
00:57:49,774 --> 00:57:53,344
environment as well, obviously, but it's
like trying to, trying to be efficient

969
00:57:53,494 --> 00:57:59,554
with each, with our time, but also
appreciate that we, we need each other.

970
00:57:59,714 --> 00:58:03,124
It's really helpful to have other
parents who, who can step up and

971
00:58:03,134 --> 00:58:05,604
say, Oh, I'll pick up your kid
for you if you're stuck, right?

972
00:58:05,904 --> 00:58:06,154
Yeah.

973
00:58:07,484 --> 00:58:11,194
And, um, but yeah, just like,

974
00:58:13,574 --> 00:58:16,324
Not having that makes
a really lonely world.

975
00:58:16,494 --> 00:58:21,574
So it's like homeschooling is naturally
more community led and it's almost like

976
00:58:21,634 --> 00:58:26,444
it ends up becoming that, I wouldn't
quite say second family, but it becomes

977
00:58:26,444 --> 00:58:33,514
that supportive network that, um,
That we need and we, we, we recently

978
00:58:33,514 --> 00:58:38,834
went on a camping trip with some
other home editors and it was amazing.

979
00:58:38,854 --> 00:58:42,304
It was just like, there's a way to
get to know some of the other parents,

980
00:58:42,304 --> 00:58:45,504
but like, then the kids just were
like, they were off playing all day.

981
00:58:45,504 --> 00:58:49,583
And you can schedule that when
the weather's going to be good.

982
00:58:49,584 --> 00:58:52,134
You don't have to schedule
it around actual school time.

983
00:58:52,134 --> 00:58:52,424
Right.

984
00:58:52,884 --> 00:58:58,724
So yeah, literally we scheduled it
during the week when it's nice and quiet.

985
00:58:59,284 --> 00:59:03,884
Yeah, you can take advantage of all of
the benefits of that seniors have and

986
00:59:03,894 --> 00:59:09,074
people who, uh, who, who aren't bound
by that, that school's school schedule.

987
00:59:10,514 --> 00:59:11,034
I like it.

988
00:59:11,564 --> 00:59:12,104
Very cool.

989
00:59:12,714 --> 00:59:13,084
All right.

990
00:59:13,084 --> 00:59:16,054
Was there anything else that you
thought we missed in this discussion

991
00:59:16,054 --> 00:59:16,914
that you want to highlight?

992
00:59:19,014 --> 00:59:19,454
I don't think so.

993
00:59:20,879 --> 00:59:24,059
We managed to hit the high
points of what we planned.

994
00:59:24,229 --> 00:59:25,009
Oh, that's perfect.

995
00:59:25,349 --> 00:59:28,999
Well, I will make sure that all your
socials are available to people.

996
00:59:28,999 --> 00:59:31,059
Is there anything else
that you want me to add?

997
00:59:33,289 --> 00:59:34,849
Uh, no.

998
00:59:35,249 --> 00:59:39,558
Just, uh, yeah, I guess websites
to me are more important

999
00:59:39,558 --> 00:59:40,649
than socials these days, so.

1000
00:59:41,179 --> 00:59:41,399
Okay.

1001
00:59:43,644 --> 00:59:43,894
Okay.

1002
00:59:44,024 --> 00:59:45,924
Yeah, I will make sure that's in there.

1003
00:59:46,524 --> 00:59:46,854
All right.

1004
00:59:46,854 --> 00:59:47,984
Well, thank you so much, Rosie.

1005
00:59:48,014 --> 00:59:49,414
I've learned so much from you.

1006
00:59:49,824 --> 00:59:51,724
This is a way of me saying thank you.

1007
00:59:51,724 --> 00:59:54,214
When you, when you put out that
post going, I want to be a podcast.

1008
00:59:54,214 --> 00:59:55,734
I'm like, Hey, you want to do mine?

1009
00:59:55,764 --> 00:59:57,914
Because, well, I had
you on my list forever.

1010
00:59:58,284 --> 01:00:01,784
And then you went back and you
were so busy and I didn't want

1011
01:00:01,784 --> 01:00:02,944
to, I didn't want to bother you.

1012
01:00:02,944 --> 01:00:07,114
But then I'm like, Oh, if she's ready
for it, then, you know, make this happen.

1013
01:00:08,394 --> 01:00:09,244
Thank you for doing it.

1014
01:00:10,099 --> 01:00:11,569
All right, let me just hit stop.

1015
01:00:12,869 --> 01:00:15,426
Uh, there we go.

1016
01:00:16,066 --> 01:00:33,466
I'll see you next time.